The Father (Hmm?)

[Baggins]

Hmm, I don't remember anyone ever discussing this. But did you know that one of Lucreto's titles in KQ8 is 'The Father'. Its mentioned by the Oracle of the Tree. In one of the prophecies it describes him as being the one that created demons and aboninations of the world.

I know that the designers of KQ2+ didn't intend Morgeilen to be Lucreto. But they sure hit stuck on several similar themes. Both are called The Father, both were preparing for a prophecy that involved a powerful mystical object, that would give them ultimate power, etc (the Item, and the Mask of Eternity respectively). Both prophecies seem to lead to some kind of catastrophic event (Acension and the Cataclysm). Both characters were attempting to ascend and become like God.

Interesting coincidence.

[crayauchtin]

We recently had a discussion regarding what the Ascension was on the AGDI forums -- because I was curious in regards to the Companion I've been working on.

http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14800

That's a link to the discussion. It doesn't shed too much light, but I found their response interesting.

Morgeilen is not intended to be the Father, although it could easily be twisted into that (with the exception of the fact that the Father says he will meet Graham again after their last encounter (in the Cloud Test) and if he were Lucreto he would be defeated without ever seeing Graham again.)

[Baggins]

If Morgeilen is not intended to be The Father it seems they have changed some of their details. As I have several quotes from designers that state they are the same individuals. Strange.

Lucreto he would be defeated without ever seeing Graham again

Technically he was just banished into the void. No reason he couldn't have escaped the phantom zone. Bow before Zod.

Although one wonders if Graham seeing Lucreto destroy the mask of eternity in the Magic Mirror, or Lucreto looking into throne room from the mirror (at connor, stone Graham, etc) would count as "seeing Graham again" and Graham seeing "the Father" again.

Edit: I read the thread, btw your off on some of your dates. The Grand War started about 1000 years before KQ2+, not 10,000, according to one of the books in the library.

[crayauchtin]

If Morgeilen is not intended to be The Father it seems they have changed some of their details. As I have several quotes from designers that state they are the same individuals. Strange.

Sorry, I meant not intended to be Lucreto. Underslept.

Technically he was just banished into the void. No reason he couldn't have escaped the phantom zone. Bow before Zod.

Although one wonders if Graham seeing Lucreto destroy the mask of eternity in the Magic Mirror, or Lucreto looking into throne room from the mirror (at connor, stone Graham, etc) would count as "seeing Graham again" and Graham seeing "the Father" again.

I suppose that's a possibility since it seems Lucreto could see through the mirror as well....

Edit: I read the thread, btw your off on some of your dates. The Grand War started about 1000 years before KQ2+, not 10,000, according to one of the books in the library.
[/quote]
Oh, seriously? I can't believe no one caught that over there. I think we'll just have to add that to the creative liberties department at this point.

[Baggins]

Hmm going back through the game I'm noticing the reference to the events a thousand years ago are mentioned 4 or more times. Morgeilen even mentions it during the cloud spirit test. He makes reference to his disappearance during the war and how it was when he took on identity of the Father then.

[crayauchtin]

Hmm going back through the game I'm noticing the reference to the events a thousand years ago are mentioned 4 or more times. Morgeilen even mentions it during the cloud spirit test. He makes reference to his disappearance during the war and how it was when he took on identity of the Father then.

So what you're saying is, I should fix it?

[Baggins]

Hmm and Manannan's letter also states that the Father started looking for the Item a millenium before (corresponding to his disappearance).

So ya seems ya you need to 'fix' something, if you are intending to follow KQ2+ in your fan fiction.

[crayauchtin]

I suppose that might make it easier to tie TSL in with it as well....

[KatieHal]

KQ2+ and TSL don't use the same backstory, so there's no need to tie in the Father storylines to our game.

[Baggins]

Katie I think you are confused I was discussing The Father from KQ8, you would know him better as Lucreto.

Cray is discussing his fan fiction in which he is attempting to tie your KQ story into the Romancing the Stones. I think both of us are quite aware that your story has nothing to do with KQ2+. In fact I'm pretty sure both of us are aware that your game is based on the canon KQ2.

In anycase I think he is writing his story for fun and isn't intending to offend you in doing it. Though as has been pointed out by the KQ2+ team and seemingly implied by you some may not like his idea. They described his idea could 'cause a rift in the community'. Though that sounds awfully dramatic lol .

[KatieHal]

Ahh--I didn't know he was actively trying to tie it in regardless, no.

[Baggins]

Ya he's already started on it, posted in the omnipedia. He has only gotten as far as a prologue and a reworking of Wizard and The Princess.

I'm not sure how much of your story he has worked in yet. His prologue overlaps with the era of 'The War' mentioned episode 2 of your game.

[crayauchtin]

Yeah, Katie, it's totally for fun. So far I have the Prologue and (some) of the Wizard and the Princess but I've got an outline of where things are headed. Obviously I don't know where everything is headed until I've played the end of TSL.

However, having gone through and fixed up the outline I'm thinking having the Grand War take place AFTER your War of the Cloaks works much better for tying things together.... (and when I say tying things together, I do not mean putting the Father into TSL. Each novelization is going to be true to the game it's taken from. It's the addendums I'm planning that I'm most worried about!)

[Baggins]

Interesting idea, but you will definitely have problems when you try to remain "true" to King's Quest II of course. Because to stay true to KQ2+ means you will not really be staying true to the original KQ2. We already know that TSL is at least trying to remain true to KQ2 original.

There are quite a few cosmological differences between KQ2 and KQ2+, in geography (of both Kolyma and the Enchanted Isles vs. Tower Realm), history, mythology, and citizens.

I presume at least, that you are going to choose to ignore the novels and King's Quest Companion? Because you will have to in order to incorporate some of the material from TSL (that isn't consistent with those sources), as well as material from KQ2+. I.E.  take for example the history of Pandora's Box in TSL vs. that in the King's Quest Companion.

Even some details such as the age of Daventry appear to be different between various sources, about 1000 years in the KQC, a couple thousand years in KQ4 manual, and about 1,500 years best I can tell in the KQ2+. So if you ignore the novels and companion somet things might be slightly easier for you.

In anycase, I hope the omnipedia is helpful for your research. If you have any specific details you need me to check on from the various sources, just let me know. I know quite a few articles in the omnipedia are still stubs and need to be expanded on.

[crayauchtin]

The idea is to ignore the Companion and write a Fan-Companion that uses the remakes and fan projects. I'll be taking into account information from the novels, but I'm not rewriting those... cause that'd be redundant.

When there's no source for any information other than the existing Companion, I'll use what's in there -- for example, any information I need about Eastern Kolyma and Valanice's family is going to be the Prince Cedric and Coignice story that is in the Companion.

As far as contradictions between TSL and KQ2+, so far there shouldn't be TOO much contradiction. A little difference in the dialgoue, perhaps, when Graham and Shamir talk about Hagatha. (Currently he says something along the lines of "That's the evil witch who kidnapped Valanice! We never knew what happened to her." which, with the KQ2+ history, should be more like "That's the evil witch who kidnapped Valanice! We never knew what happened to her after I knocked her out of the tower!") but as long as I can construct a Black Cloak Society that involves the Shadows from TSL *and* the Father, I think it should be okay. The fact that in KQ2+ we know only that the Father is ancient and leads the Black Cloak Society at the time of the game (which would lead one to believe he created it, although that is not necessarily true) so I think I'll be able to pull it off. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

[Baggins]

As for the Father, I've been working in all the letters and references from the game into the wiki, if that'll be of help. It probably a lot easier to follow than trying to hunt down all the references for yourself.

Also is your intent is to ignore the companion, and the canon KQ2. I'd be careful about taking into account the novels. They do hold a couple of references to the Kolyma of Roberta's KQ2, and some of other random details from the companion. Not many, but they are there.

[crayauchtin]

Don't the novels just reference the original KQ2 -- they don't have any major plot points concerning it, do they?

[Baggins]

Just some stuff about Graham's encounter with the fairy there, and Valanice's time growing up as a child in the castle (probably not talking about Dracula's Castle of course). Just a few other things alluding to her rescue beyond that. Minor things, but can be contradicted if you aren't careful.

Still since you are going to ignore the canon KQ2, that's besides the point.

Actually Kq2RTS pretty much makes the novels impossible since according to the cloud trials Morgeilen started the destruction in Daventry not long after Alexanders kidnapping (cataclysmic earthquakes and the dragon were brought to the land within a couple of years). Its stated by both Graham and Morgeilen that the destruction of Daventry began with Alexander's kidnapping, and occured almost not stop over the course of seventeen long years. Morgeilen was the one sending the earthquakes and dragon that ravaged the kingdom. Where as in the novels things where relatively safe qnd peaceful upwards to Rosella's 15th birthday. The problems in KoS and See No Weevil were relatively minor and were resolved, without causing any long term effects to Daventry. The dragon and earthquakes had not yet begun.


On another note Manannan state in RTS that he must follow his custom of killing eighteen year old boys to the letter there is no room for deviate from it, it is something he must do, and it suggests he is preparing to look for his next child (Alexander) soon (so he can prep him up before killing him at Eighteen). It is also Morgeilen who apparently chooses the boys for him.

[crayauchtin]

Actually Kq2RTS pretty much makes the novels impossible since according to the cloud trials Morgeilen started the destruction in Daventry not long after Alexanders kidnapping (cataclysmic earthquakes and the dragon were brought to the land within a couple of years). Its stated by both Graham and Morgeilen that the destruction of Daventry began with Alexander's kidnapping, and occured almost not stop over the course of seventeen long years. Morgeilen was the one sending the earthquakes and dragon that ravaged the kingdom. Where as in the novels things where relatively safe qnd peaceful upwards to Rosella's 15th birthday. The problems in KoS and See No Weevil were relatively minor and were resolved, without causing any long term effects to Daventry. The dragon and earthquakes had not yet begun.

But, again, since I'm not actually re-writing the novels, what's said in them really doesn't effect what I'm writing. I'm just planning to reference that the adventures in them happened. The reader can imagine what changes to them they'd like. (I would guess it's possible that there was a significant lull in the earthquakes in which See No Weevil could have occurred. Also, it's hard to tell from the wording of the scene you're talking about (I just watched it on YouTube) whether or not the earthquakes/dragon are the result of the Curse or the direct action of the Father. In my version, it's a result of the curse which would allow there to be some times of calm. (As much of the despair of Daventry might also be caused by Alexander's disappearance.)
Obviously what I'm writing can't be perfect, since the fan projects I'm using are from different people's imaginations and aren't totally compatible with each other, which is your point. I'm also leaving out the ZZT ones since I haven't played them, and because I'm pretty sure those are meant to be like an Alternate Universe thing.

On another note Manannan state in RTS that he must follow his custom of killing eighteen year old boys to the letter there is no room for deviate from it, it is something he must do, and it suggests he is preparing to look for his next child (Alexander) soon (so he can prep him up before killing him at Eighteen). It is also Morgeilen who apparently chooses the boys for him.

With Morgeilen choosing the boys for him, that actually means that -- if Morgeilen is the partner or pawn of whoever is trapped in the Zodia Stone -- Manannan may have had a better idea of who he was getting with Alexander. And while the letter to Hagatha in RTS does say that he can't deviate from his tradition, IIRC it's more about once they're 18 they're capable of magic and he's screwed rather than it's *actually* a necessity. (He just says "The tradition must be observed at all times." he doesn't say why.) If Morgeilen is choosing the boys for him, it's even more likely that he might say "We actually *want* this one to learn magic when he's 18 so, y'know, don't kill him. But don't let him kill you. 'Kay? Great." which would follow with TSL.

[Baggins]

Curse or the direct action of the Father

I was playing Enhanced version. Basically it is part of the curse, and part of the Father's actions. But the curse as the Father explaisn is his own actions. He is the one putting the curse on Daventry. He mentions that he has brought the disasters to Daventry to fulfill the curse.

I'm also leaving out the ZZT ones since I haven't played them, and because I'm pretty sure those are meant to be like an Alternate Universe thing.

They are no more or less "alternate universe" than any of the King's Quest fan games actually. They are set as "sequels" to KQ3 more or less. Though set after KQ4 period. It utilizes quite a bit of the assets from KQ3 (follows what happened to Manannan directly following KQ3, but before joining Mordack), and shows a possible interpretation of what happened to Tamir following KQ4. They do have alot of nostalgic moments linking back to the classic KQ1, KQ3, and KQ4.

YOu should give them a try, they aren't that difficult to beat, and take only a couple of hours each.

Seriously they are alot better than Breast Intention... have fairly compelling storyline for such a different style of gameplay.

Owls' Quest is also much better than Breast Intentions, although probably just as silly (although I think it was intentionaly silly, whereas Breast was trying to be serious).