The future of the adventure genre

[dark-daventry]

So, I've noticed in other threads, particularly here, that there's a lot of discussion going on about the future of the adventure genre, and what it needs to continue thriving. I've decided to make this thread for all such discussion. There's no need to flood other threads with these ideas when they don't belong there. Now you have a place to call your own. You can discuss anything relating the future of adventure games here. Do you think Microsoft's Kinect is the answer we've been waiting for? What do you believe the genre needs to continue? Or does it even need to continue at all? Are we hanging on to a memory of our childhood that we should just let go? Make your opinions heard!

[kindofdoon]

I think DMD started a similar thread a few months ago.

It is my belief that adventure games in the style of the 80s or 90s will never return as a mainstream gaming genre.

[dark-daventry]

I think DMD started a similar thread a few months ago.

It is my belief that adventure games in the style of the 80s or 90s will never return as a mainstream gaming genre.

I believe you're right, now that I think about it... Which means, it's time to go digging and searching and do some mod stuff.

As for the 80's and 90's style, I agree. I think, moving forward, the adventure genre needs some form of innovation to stay fresh. I think the adventure genre is the best of the genres, and I think it has the ability to endure and survive, but it must continue to innovate and embrace new ideas to do so. I just hope developers realize this.

[kindofdoon]

Here's an interesting follow-up question: why caused adventure games to go from being mainstream in the 80s and 90s to being nearly extinct in the 2000s?

[dark-daventry]

Here's an interesting follow-up question: why caused adventure games to go from being mainstream in the 80s and 90s to being nearly extinct in the 2000s?

The downfall of sierra, perhaps? I'll admit, it was rather sudden. I mean, the games were great in the early and mid 90's. Unfortunately, that didn't last long, did it? I think one thing that killed it was the quick and sudden jump to 3D graphics. There weren't much really good 3D adventures until after Sierra crumbled. I don't think that style fit the games they were portraying. If new properties were developed that fit in the graphical style of 3D, then perhaps things could have been different. But ultimately, I think it was the sale of Sierra that did the genre in. But at the same time, what goes up must come down. The adventure genre was bound to lost popularity some day, as will all current genres eventually. It's only a matter of time. But great downfalls can lead to great revivals. I still believe, deep down inside me, that the adventure genre will return in some fashion. It won't be the same, but the overall aesthetic of the genre will remain. From the ashes of the old, comes the birth of the new...

Slightly off-topic, I can't find DMD's thread, so this one is staying for now. If/when I dig it up (if it exists) I'll merge it with this one. I checked the entire back history of the off-topic board and it ain't there...

[KatieHal]

The downfall: a lot of reasons, obviously, but one that jumps to mind? FMV Hell.

FMV *seemed* like a really great idea, but then in the end, the execution was just awful. Awkward, weird, and expensive. The genre just did not translate to the style as well as everyone thought and hoped it would. So when big titles were flops, that gives less hope for lesser known titles, and the genre as a whole suffered. Coupled with things like Sierra's fall, it just made for the whole lot of 'em taking a dive.

Moving forward, I think there's plenty of hope and room for adventure games. For one thing, I don't think the genre ever died. It shrank, oh yes indeed, but there have always been adventure game titles and notable ones at that. And the quality of the story in any game is always a factor, too, so the genre has had its lasting effect on how we game in general.

But gamers have grown up, too. We want more from our games now than just a good story, we want something new, innovative, interesting, multi-faceted, we want replay value, we want an online experience, we want it NOW. Adventure games, like everything else, need to find ways to be more expansive and innovative. Maybe that'll be Kinect--I can think of that being a cool way to add to the experience, for some people. Or maybe it'll be something else entirely, who knows.

I doubt it'll be FMV though

[Fierce Deity]

Here's an interesting follow-up question: why caused adventure games to go from being mainstream in the 80s and 90s to being nearly extinct in the 2000s?

My theory may not be widely accepted, or may just be brushed off as mindless conjecture, but I think what did the Adventure genre in was control. Games were coming out that allowed you to move a character around in a 3D world. Everything from Platforming Adventures to First-Person Shooters. Games were allowing the player to explore through control. Old-school "point-and-click" adventure games only limited the player to issuing commands to a character. Pick up, Talk to, Walk here. Everything you had to do in the game required you to look at a 2D palette and solve a puzzle. I think a human's more barbaric nature would suggest running around and shooting aliens to be much more entertaining. I for one find the art of adventure games to be quaint, and would choose it over the path most traveled.

I'm rambling, but what it comes down to is: convenience. If you make it easy for a player to adapt to a style of gaming (i.e. no puzzles, no point-and-click, no story), then it will become successful. Modern Warfare 2 for instance. It's debatable of course, and everyone has their opinion on games, but I happen to find the art of adventure games to be a gem of a more conceptual time. When shooters and sports games get the highest market share out of every genre, it's obvious why adventure games failed. They appeal to a more elegant crowd. No offense to those who like shooters or Madden NFL games.  

[dark-daventry]

The downfall: a lot of reasons, obviously, but one that jumps to mind? FMV Hell.

FMV *seemed* like a really great idea, but then in the end, the execution was just awful. Awkward, weird, and expensive. The genre just did not translate to the style as well as everyone thought and hoped it would. So when big titles were flops, that gives less hope for lesser known titles, and the genre as a whole suffered. Coupled with things like Sierra's fall, it just made for the whole lot of 'em taking a dive.

Moving forward, I think there's plenty of hope and room for adventure games. For one thing, I don't think the genre ever died. It shrank, oh yes indeed, but there have always been adventure game titles and notable ones at that. And the quality of the story in any game is always a factor, too, so the genre has had its lasting effect on how we game in general.

But gamers have grown up, too. We want more from our games now than just a good story, we want something new, innovative, interesting, multi-faceted, we want replay value, we want an online experience, we want it NOW. Adventure games, like everything else, need to find ways to be more expansive and innovative. Maybe that'll be Kinect--I can think of that being a cool way to add to the experience, for some people. Or maybe it'll be something else entirely, who knows.

I doubt it'll be FMV though

Just wait until it is FMV 

Speaking of story, did you ever get that e-mail?

Here's an interesting follow-up question: why caused adventure games to go from being mainstream in the 80s and 90s to being nearly extinct in the 2000s?

My theory may not be widely accepted, or may just be brushed off as mindless conjecture, but I think what did the Adventure genre in was control. Games were coming out that allowed you to move a character around in a 3D world. Everything from Platforming Adventures to First-Person Shooters. Games were allowing the player to explore through control. Old-school "point-and-click" adventure games only limited the player to issuing commands to a character. Pick up, Talk to, Walk here. Everything you had to do in the game required you to look at a 2D palette and solve a puzzle. I think a human's more barbaric nature would suggest running around and shooting aliens to be much more entertaining. I for one find the art of adventure games to be quaint, and would choose it over the path most traveled.

I'm rambling, but what it comes down to is: convenience. If you make it easy for a player to adapt to a style of gaming (i.e. no puzzles, no point-and-click, no story), then it will become successful. Modern Warfare 2 for instance. It's debatable of course, and everyone has their opinion on games, but I happen to find the art of adventure games to be a gem of a more conceptual time. When shooters and sports games get the highest market share out of every genre, it's obvious why adventure games failed. They appeal to a more elegant crowd. No offense to those who like shooters or Madden NFL games. 

Frankly, I have a huge thing against sports games. My feeling is if you want to play a sport, go play an actual sport. Don't sit on your couch and twiddle your thumbs with a piece of plastic. You won't get any exercise, you won't get the full experience, and online voice chat simply does not compare to face to face interactions, as rare as they are now a days.

As for First Person Shooters, I can live with them. They aren't my favorite genre, by any means, but there are some good ones, such as Goldeneye. And, when I turn on cheats in FPS', the games get so much better. Yes, I admit it, I'm a cheater. But not for adventure games. I only cheat in games where I have the possibility to lose all my health and die. I don't like the consequence for failure being death.

And I agree that the adventure genre needs something more than just a good story to carry it into the future. A graphical update is one thing the genre could use. Gray Matter has some AMAZING visuals. Seriously, they are stunning. Adventure games have always been beautiful.

[Fierce Deity]

Frankly, I have a huge thing against sports games. My feeling is if you want to play a sport, go play an actual sport. Don't sit on your couch and twiddle your thumbs with a piece of plastic. You won't get any exercise, you won't get the full experience, and online voice chat simply does not compare to face to face interactions, as rare as they are now a days.

As for First Person Shooters, I can live with them. They aren't my favorite genre, by any means, but there are some good ones, such as Goldeneye. And, when I turn on cheats in FPS', the games get so much better. Yes, I admit it, I'm a cheater. But not for adventure games. I only cheat in games where I have the possibility to lose all my health and die. I don't like the consequence for failure being death.

And I agree that the adventure genre needs something more than just a good story to carry it into the future. A graphical update is one thing the genre could use. Gray Matter has some AMAZING visuals. Seriously, they are stunning. Adventure games have always been beautiful.

I feel the same way about sports games. If you want to play hockey, then play real hockey. Nothing can compare to playing sports in real life. However, I think a lot of the gamers that play sports games do it for the strategic design. They can manage their own teams, and create their own plays. I think it's somewhat the equivalent of an actual strategy game, but without the mass slaughtering of your rival army.

I also agree with shooters. They can be fun, but a lot of them tend to be redundant. I'm sick of shooters that revolve around war. Doesn't matter if it's WWII, or modern war. It's just too boring. I like shooters like Bioshock, Singularity, Borderlands, etc. I like the shooters that try to reinvent, rather than mimic the best-selling series at the time. Anything that can breathe new life into an already suffocating genre.

As for the actual future of adventure games, I think people would be surprised at what I've noticed. Tell Tale Games has created a name for themselves in the adventure genre, and I for one find them to be quite good at what they do. However, I've noticed that adventure games haven't really died, they have just evolved. One of the best games that I've had the opportunity of playing: Heavy Rain. Had all of the trappings for a good game, but was reluctantly classified in an N/A genre. I'm not going to hesitate in suggesting that Heavy Rain is a hardcore adventure game that has adapted all of the elements needed to appeal to a modern-day audience. The adventure genre never needed to die, it just needed to evolve. Even Sierra saw this when the time came to rectify their long-running series, King's Quest, into an action-adventure game (Mask of Eternity). Also, GOG has made sure that the lost adventure games of old are far from forgotten.

[dark-daventry]

Frankly, I have a huge thing against sports games. My feeling is if you want to play a sport, go play an actual sport. Don't sit on your couch and twiddle your thumbs with a piece of plastic. You won't get any exercise, you won't get the full experience, and online voice chat simply does not compare to face to face interactions, as rare as they are now a days.

As for First Person Shooters, I can live with them. They aren't my favorite genre, by any means, but there are some good ones, such as Goldeneye. And, when I turn on cheats in FPS', the games get so much better. Yes, I admit it, I'm a cheater. But not for adventure games. I only cheat in games where I have the possibility to lose all my health and die. I don't like the consequence for failure being death.

And I agree that the adventure genre needs something more than just a good story to carry it into the future. A graphical update is one thing the genre could use. Gray Matter has some AMAZING visuals. Seriously, they are stunning. Adventure games have always been beautiful.

I feel the same way about sports games. If you want to play hockey, then play real hockey. Nothing can compare to playing sports in real life. However, I think a lot of the gamers that play sports games do it for the strategic design. They can manage their own teams, and create their own plays. I think it's somewhat the equivalent of an actual strategy game, but without the mass slaughtering of your rival army.

I also agree with shooters. They can be fun, but a lot of them tend to be redundant. I'm sick of shooters that revolve around war. Doesn't matter if it's WWII, or modern war. It's just too boring. I like shooters like Bioshock, Singularity, Borderlands, etc. I like the shooters that try to reinvent, rather than mimic the best-selling series at the time. Anything that can breathe new life into an already suffocating genre.

As for the actual future of adventure games, I think people would be surprised at what I've noticed. Tell Tale Games has created a name for themselves in the adventure genre, and I for one find them to be quite good at what they do. However, I've noticed that adventure games haven't really died, they have just evolved. One of the best games that I've had the opportunity of playing: Heavy Rain. Had all of the trappings for a good game, but was reluctantly classified in an N/A genre. I'm not going to hesitate in suggesting that Heavy Rain is a hardcore adventure game that has adapted all of the elements needed to appeal to a modern-day audience. The adventure genre never needed to die, it just needed to evolve. Even Sierra saw this when the time came to rectify their long-running series, King's Quest, into an action-adventure game (Mask of Eternity). Also, GOG has made sure that the lost adventure games of old are far from forgotten.

And I am grateful to gog for keeping the classics alive. I always tell people that the adventure genre is technically dead, but I suppose I should rephrase my statement to say that it's simply shrunk, and the only thing keeping it alive are the fans. Which speaks volumes. The fans, in my opinion, have the true power. The fans have it within themselves to make or break a game. MoE was a good game in it's own right. If you disconnect it from the King's Quest series, it is a good game. But the fans have spoken, and so it shall be known for all time that Mask of Eternity is considered the worst game of the KQ canon, the black sheep of the legendary series. This goes for any game, no matter what genre it is. My point here is that the genre has survived by fans alone. The games of our childhood have inspired us to create remakes that surpass the original game, original independent adventures, and sequels based off a classic franchise. A lot of these fan efforts turn out to be huge successes, at least in the adventure space. The KQ remakes from AGDInteractive are amazing in every way. TSL is among the best games in the entire KQ series, and one of the largest and most ambitious fan projects of all time. And we succeeded. All because of the power of the fans. Without fans, we would be nothing. This project wouldn't have gone anywhere... I think I just lost my train of thought by rambling on like this...

[KatieHal]

I did get the email; I haven't really been able to look too closely at it. You know how this time of year gets!

[dark-daventry]

I did get the email; I haven't really been able to look too closely at it. You know how this time of year gets!

I do indeed. The workload for finals can be intense... Well respond at your leisure. No rush. I've got plenty of other things on my mind. I just wish they weren't all school related...

[Big C from Cauney island]

I was probably the one posting on that other thread.  But, like i said, you can just bring back the exact same thing year after year and keep people interested. You have to up the ante.  I do think adventure games have a future if more features are added.  I just wish the creators of TSL had a budget to work with.  Who knows what they could have done with this considering how good it already is?  They have the right idea.

For future adventure games, you would have to combine a bit of old with new.  I still like playing VGA remakes, but for commercial sales it has to evolve.  Assasins creed 2, albeit an action game, has a great story, and has an adventure feel to it.  In some small way, the story concept of a game hasn't died when I play games like this.
I think adventure games need to be modified to survive commercially. 

And as posted by someone else, Goldeneye is awesome. Nintendo does a great job with remaking/reinventing games.

[Damar]

Personally, I think it has to do with instant gratification and impatience.  You get that with first person shooters, sports games, and any other arcade style game out there.  It's fast paced, it encourages you to shut off your higher brain functions, and things go boom.  Even the so called "cerebral" games out there aren't particularly cerebral.  It always drives me crazy when a FPS claims it's part adventure game or that it has puzzles just because it makes you find a key to leave the level or something like that.  That's not a puzzle and it's not thinking.  And many of the games claim to have a story, but even the ones that are actually celebrated for their story don't seem original.  They seem like a rehash of any movie done in whatever genre the game is in.  But regardless, the games are entertaining.

Adventure games make you invest time, though.  And while you can argue that all games take time to beat, they have other achievements in them, like beating a level or something like that.  Adventure games are just a long story.  And they can take forever to beat, because it's up to your ability to figure them out.  I just don't think that's marketable anymore.  We live in a time where attention spans are dwindling and people want their entertainment and rewards now.  In a world where, if my youtube video takes two seconds to load, it feels like an eternity how can we expect people to sit down and actually work through an old-fashioned adventure game when they could just put in an FPS and blow stuff up.  You can explore, create maps to remember where you've been, put inventory items together to create new items, and go crazy trying to find an item that just happens to be hidden somewhere you didn't look, or you can blow someone's head off and feel your brain shut down.  Path of least resistance says let's blow up some heads!  And the irony is that by not marketing adventure games, the companies are making sure that such games will never be marketable again because society will acclimate to the instant gratification.  They see that this is the direction things are going, so they market to that exclusively, which just enables the movement further.

So honestly, I think that's it.  I don't think that it's that adventure games needed to evolve and that's why they fell away, because really, how much have first person shooters or sports games evolved?  Outside of the graphics, I mean.  Goldeneye is still the classic gold standard of shooters.  Games try to act like they're the next evolution but they rarely are.  They're usually just more of the same, and any actual improvement is mainly in the graphics or the controls.  So the evolution is only cosmetic.  The core of the game is still running around and blowing up heads.

[dark-daventry]

For the record, Nintendo had nothing to do with the remake of Goldeneye. That was all Activision. The only reason it was on the Wii was copyright reasons I believe. And I was the one who mentioned goldeneye.

As for POStudios working with a budget, obviously that isn't happening with The Silver Lining, but so far as I've been told, Corridor 9 will be our first commercial game. Beyond that, I can't really tell you much. Because I don't know anymore than you do. The team doesn't keep me informed of Corridor 9. I work strictly with TSL for the moment, but I have made it clear that if they'll let me, I'd love to stay on past TSL. Only time will tell what will happen. But for the moment, most of our attention is focused on TSL, and rightly so.

[Big C from Cauney island]

Activision may have brought back goldeneye (I didnt know it wasn't nintendo), but they did it for the same reason I said before.  People liked it in the past, so they revamped it.  And obviously, people who played it in the past will want it.  Just adding some new features is enough to make it marketable.  The core is still there, with enhancements.

Now, as far as FPS go, there have been MAJOR improvements since doom in 1994. Obviously graphics/sound. Compare Crysis to the original doom.  More than the eye candy, you can get in vehicles, jump, climb, swim,  have a suit with different modes,  enhanced level structure, environment intercation, cut scenes (story with characters), etc.  But probably the most important enhancement is multiplayer. The original doom was 4 players max, while now you can play over 30 people at once (at decent speeds beyond 14400).

Also, Aliens versus predator for example.  Being an alien and climbing on walls, pouncing people.  Using the predator laser guided canon, obviously the marine too, and then throwing them altogether for multiplayer.  Different approaches and strategy.

So, even though the core of shoot em up is there, there have been enough changes to keep people interested and make it more commercially viable. I still enjoy the original doom, but things have come a long way.

As of the last few years, I have seen a lot of these call of duty type games come out with very similar gameplay, so I can understand someone nowadays saying they are all the same.  My friend has PS3 and Black ops, and he is so psyched about playing it online. I tried to explain to him I've been doing that for years, people without PCs miss out big time.  Hopefully Crysis 2 and Duke Nukem forever will shake up the genre.  And Doom 4? I can't wait to see that.

Don't get me wrong, TSL was like the greatest news I've had in a long time, and it is what I would expect from an advanced KQ.  I just think to make serious money on adventure games, you have to lure in the mainstream gamers of today.  I see Kinect as being something that might be able to do that.  I love the concept of talking to characters, sort of like the Xbox 360 Milo that I dont see anymore.  or grabbing for objects and trying to connect them in a certain way, or pushing a lever.  The adventure core would still be there, but make it more interactive.

I know TSL cant get money for this, but if they could I can only imagine what they could do.  1500 page script with all the unreleased stuff? My mind can't grasp a game that huge. And I fully believe they are capable and willing, but I know they can't....

But, if enough people show interest in adventure games in general, this could open doors.  But I still believe there will need to be some changes.  Sound cards and VGA were a great step, now we can alter HOW you play.
I think this is key.

[Lambonius]

Yeah, I think you guys have touched on some good points.  As others have said, point-and-click, as much as it has nostalgic value to us, is a horribly outdated system of interaction (if you can call it that) in a game.  If adventure games are really going to make a resurgence in the mainstream marketplace, they need to come up with something new and intuitive.  Kinect may be interesting, but I don't necessarily think it's the answer, or that motion controls are a prerequisite for more interactive gameplay.  The first thing that adventure games need to embrace is direct control, which many have started doing, over the character's movements.  Next, we need an intuitive system that allows us to interact with and combine objects and the environment in a way that again feels more direct and interactive than simply pointing at an object with an icon and seeing what he'll do with it.  Imagine the possibilities for multiple puzzle solutions if you could actually decide WHAT TO DO with an object, rather than just having a generic HAND icon and having the character perform only one specific action that the developers had in mind.  THAT is the future of adventure games, if they are to make a comeback.  To create a truly interactive world that allows and rewards creative thinking and intuition on the part of the player, while also leading them along on a memorable narrative journey.

[Big C from Cauney island]

  The first thing that adventure games need to embrace is direct control, which many have started doing, over the character's movements.  Next, we need an intuitive system that allows us to interact with and combine objects and the environment in a way that again feels more direct and interactive than simply pointing at an object with an icon and seeing what he'll do with it.  Imagine the possibilities for multiple puzzle solutions if you could actually decide WHAT TO DO with an object, rather than just having a generic HAND icon and having the character perform only one specific action that the developers had in mind.  THAT is the future of adventure games, if they are to make a comeback.  To create a truly interactive world that allows and rewards creative thinking and intuition on the part of the player, while also leading them along on a memorable narrative journey.

Exactly.  Imagine puzzle solving and combining objects while using your real hands.  You could come up with some incredible puzzles like that.

(Posted on: December 15, 2010, 12:01:36 PM)

Im actually coming up with some ideas now..... Yea, I think they could make a comeback with modifications. But I failed programming!!! In my defense, I had a bad teacher. He taught 1 semester and 87% of the students dropped out. But I got the ideas!! I really wish I could make a game like this.

[kindofdoon]

Imagine the possibilities for multiple puzzle solutions if you could actually decide WHAT TO DO with an object, rather than just having a generic HAND icon and having the character perform only one specific action that the developers had in mind.

This is a great idea. The rather arbitrary and obscure solutions in old adventure games seriously detract from my enjoyment of playing them.

[Big C from Cauney island]

Now that 3D vision is available (nvidia), imagine walking through a castle or the green isles in FULL 3D. Everywhere you look you would be consumed by your surroundings, while incorporating real activity. You could literally BE Graham. Just an idea.  Someone needs to jump on these ideas, you could truly make an adventure in every sense.

(Posted on: December 15, 2010, 03:49:45 PM)

Almost like a VR helmet.  AAHHHH! Brain overload with too many ideas!