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KQ8's Action/Adventure direction

Started by Sir Perceval of Daventry, December 28, 2010, 12:00:03 PM

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Sir Perceval of Daventry

I have to be honest...As I've gotten older, I really don't understand why people couldn't and can't accept the new direction which KQ8 took. I've always seen the CRPG and the Action/Adventure genres as being the heirs of the original Adventure genre--Aspects of the Adventure Genre color both.

Haids1987

People don't like KQ8 a lot of the reason because it's not true to the classic King' Quest format.  There is combat, for example, and the biggest, scariest reason: YOU DON'T PLAY A MEMBER OF THE ROYAL FAMILY!!! :shock:

I myself have never played it, but for those two reasons alone I know I never will. :no:
STATUS:
-Drinking water
-Checking the forum. 

Perpetually. ;D
Erica Reed is Katie Hallahan.
Leader of the "I <3 Doon" Fanclub

Lambonius

And fresh from the "judging a book solely by its cover" crowd...Haids1987!!  ;)

In all seriousness though, and in response to the original post--people harp on and on about changes being made to "the KQ formula", but what most fail to realize is that Roberta and the like always intended those series to go in new directions.  Back in the day, they were largely limited in what they could do by technology, but the goal was always to create a completely immersive world and tell a good story.  If they could have made something like Assassin's Creed II or Oblivion back then, they probably would have.  The main reason adventures didn't have lots of action back then is that there really was no great way to make it interactive.  Even the Indy adventure games were pretty light on action.  KQ8 may have lacked a little in the execution (in hindsight--it was actually a pretty great game in its day), but I firmly believe that that was the direction Sierra games were always intended to take.

KatieHal

Haids' answer is still the reason(s) why a lot of people didn't like it though, so it does answer Perceval's question.

I think mixing the two is fine, but I think MoE went a little too far too soon from their old formula for people to accept it and like it. Also it seems to have little to do with the rest of the series--what I've heard most often about it is that it's a good game, just not a good King's Quest game.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Lambonius

Quote from: KatieHal on December 28, 2010, 02:37:14 PM
Haids' answer is still the reason(s) why a lot of people didn't like it though, so it does answer Perceval's question.


Heh...I know.  I just don't think I can count the amount of times I've heard people complaining about KQ8 and then saying, "oh, well I've never played it before."  You should always try something before you decide you don't like it.  That's just common sense.

Blackthorne

Most people didn't like it because it sucked.  It's pretty much that simple.


Bt
"You've got to keep one eye looking over your shoulder
you know it's going to get harder and harder as you
get older - but in the end you'll pack up, fly down south, hide your head in the sand.  Just another sad old man, all alone and dying of cancer." - Dogs, Pink Floyd.

Baggins

If it had truly sucked, it wouldn't have gotten the accolades it received back in the day... It woudn't have outsold Grim Fandango, and most reviews were fairly positive (70% or above)...
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

snabbott

I enjoyed it (in God mode :P) - I thought it was a pretty good game for what it was. I agree that it didn't fit in very well with the rest of the series, but I didn't have any issues playing as someone outside the royal family. King Graham himself started at a lower position (though probably not as a peasant).

Steve Abbott | Beta Tester | The Silver Lining

Haids1987

Quote from: Lambonius on December 28, 2010, 03:43:40 PM
Heh...I know.  I just don't think I can count the amount of times I've heard people complaining about KQ8 and then saying, "oh, well I've never played it before."  You should always try something before you decide you don't like it.  That's just common sense.
Hmmm, I don't remember complaining about it...but it's true, I never will play it.  Doesn't follow KQ format, isn't a KQ game.  ;D
STATUS:
-Drinking water
-Checking the forum. 

Perpetually. ;D
Erica Reed is Katie Hallahan.
Leader of the "I <3 Doon" Fanclub

colin

I only played the Mask of Eternity once. I suppose it was an ok game. I got used to the fighting, but I really
wanted to find out what happened to graham and family.  There fore I did not care for connor.
I hated the loading times as well, and I thought the ending was pathetic.

MusicallyInspired

MOE didn't suck. It wasn't great, but it certainly didn't suck. That game had atmosphere. I kind of appreciate how they didn't force you to play a member of the royal family, actually. It seemed much more fitting to change the focus to a different lead character while taking the series in a brand new direction.

It could have been a lot better, though. And had Roberta had complete control until the end of the project I believe it would have been a much more cohesive, and therefore interesting, game.

Baggins

#11
darn, cursors... if doesn't have a parser it isn't a KQ Game!!!!!

Seriously though;

According to King's Quest Collection manual;

QuoteKQ3 was the first adventure game featuring auto-mapping, with a "magic map" found in the game that can be used to teleport to most locations that the player has visited before. This feature was unpopular among some fans who claim it made the game too easy, hence magic maps in future Sierra games were more limited in their teleporting ability

Concerning KQ5;
Quote
"...Unfortunately it took some time to realize all the possibilities the new format offered; some players felt icon-based games were less challenging. I kept thinking about this as I wrote King's Quest VI."-Roberta Williams

Concerning KQ8;

QuoteKQ7 was considered one of the controversial King's Quest games, as the animation made a lot of people think the game was more geared toward kids than the King's Quest Games had been. It was criticized for choppy graphics (although this was probably a limitation of some of the systems that the game was played on), and having inconsistent graphics (due to the fact that different animation houses did the animation).-Roberta Williams/Mark Seibert, Talkspot Interview.

As you are aware, "King's Quest VII" received some negative reviews. Do you pay attention to those reviews or do you take them lightly?
I never take any reviews or opinions of game players lightly. If I did, I would have been gone long ago! I pay very close attention to these opinions. As far as "King's Quest VII" receiving "negative reviews" - I really don't know what you are referring to. Perhaps some people didn't like it as well as others, but overall it has done very well. Some people actually think it was the best. True, it got some negative reviews, but it also received many very positive reviews. Some "veteran" game players perhaps didn't like it quite as well as many of the older-style adventure games, but many of the "newer" game players loved it. Therefore, if you're me, who do you listen to? How do you interpret the opinions? With "King's Quest VII," I've seen everything from horrible reviews to the most glowing reviews I've ever received. I've heard from many who didn't like it at all to those who felt it was the best game they've ever played. Also, it sold very well, and is still selling! When it comes to interpreting reviews and/or opinions, it's a very delicate business, and even though I do pay attention to these things, I try to remain objective and never let the "bad news" get me down, or the "good news" get me too self-assured.

Once it's all said and done, however, and it comes to the next game, even though I always keep in mind everybody's opinions, it ultimately comes down to my opinion...and what I find enjoyable. I must enjoy the game I'm working on and to ultimately trust my own judgment.

QuoteIt could have been a lot better, though. And had Roberta had complete control until the end of the project I believe it would have been a much more cohesive, and therefore interesting, game.

I somewhat doubt that was the case. After reading the various preview stuff, that was cut, it sounded like it would have been even further from KQ series. It had even more boss battles, and violence in early versions apparently. The only thing that would have benifited is some of the characters might have had extended plot details added to them. Like the Swamp Witch would have interacted with the character in diguise before, you actually had to combat her.

Seriously with Roberta comparing KQ8 with Doom as far as back around the time she released Phantasmagoria, you know it wasn't going to be any closer to traditional adventure games :p.... Her son who had a chance to keep up with the game throughout its development kept on comparing it to 'Quake'... Doom and Quake about as far as you can get away from KQ as possiblel... if anything the final game actually moved closer to King's Quest and Quest for Glory, than Doom/Quake FPS.

BTW, Connor could have been worse, originally he was going to be a mindless statue come to life, while everything living turned into statues... For those who think he is a block of wood currently.... I don't even want to think what the "living statue" would have been like.

As for people who complain about the ending of KQ8... Ya I agree. Imo what is such a great story (one of the deepest in the series) is marred by such anti-climactic ending video. I'd say its actually grown on me, to be one of my top favorites in the series. I like finding the nods to the KQ and its themes that are hidden about the game. In a lot of ways it reminds me of KQ1's format. Lots of monsters to encounter/avoid, a more interactive character (early Graham could jump/duck), and playing as a non-king/knight to become something greater. Connor becomes a knight over the course of the game, and noble by deed. Both Graham and Connor share the same honorary title even, 'Sir Knight'. Granted, I suppose original KQ1 had an anti-climactic ending as well, :P...

But truth be told my least favorite King's Quest game is KQ7:Princeless Bride... It's don't like its non-serious atmosphere, and too cartoony style... Its the least realistic of the entire series... I hate the fact it didn't have King Graham in any form... The ending was nearly as anti-climactic as KQ8. No wonder it was considered extremely controversial as well when it was released... Lots of people saying it wasn't a KQ game.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

KatieHal

Let's try not to retread too much of previous discussions on this topic. It was talked about at length not all that long ago, and those threads can be found in the past pages of the Off-Topic section.

Also, I can't help but think a lot of why it sold so well has more to do with the previous KQ games and their popularity than the success of this game. Because, by and large, the passing of time has decreed it the least loved KQ of all.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Baggins

#13
Actually "passing of time" hasn't declared it "least loved", only a few verbal fans that discuss it have ever mentioned it being there "least loved". That's all highly subjective opinion however, and all relative. I highly doubt a scientific poll has ever been taken on the subject  :suffer:.

It would be really hard to know which is the 'least love' because in hindsight alot of the games haven't aged very well. You get people who hate KQ2 for example because the age shows...

Only thing we know according to Roberta Williams interviews was apparently each King's Quest game was more successful than the last. In many cases, her changes, pushed some fans of previous games in the series away from the series (for variosu reasons), but drew in new fans.

Again its all relative, and there is no accounting for taste.

It's also a bit of myth that KQ8 destroyed the series, Sierra jettisoned the series, and all other adventure games in other series... They were more concerned with bottom line, and there was no profit margin to adventure games, there simply wasn't any interest...

If they had been concerned about success in relation to other KQ games, KQ8's success probably could have lead to KQ9 (since it was the most successful adventure game that year). But Sierra didn't see it as successful in relation to other genres/non-adventures they had branched into. Yes, I think that was a bad decision on there part, :p...

Now, if KQ8's had hurt the sales of KQ9, then we would have a valid sense of how 'unloved' the game was in relation to the series as whole. But more than likely it would have probably pushed new fans brought in by KQ8, into playing the next game in the series, had it existed.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

KatieHal

There is that, but also just about every media reference to it these days points it out as being a very unsatisfying end to the series whenever they mention it, and that's paraphrasing the nicer ways they put it.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Baggins

#15
I would agree that it is an unsatifying end to the series (it doesn't even have much of an ending), and what ending it has leaves more questions. Hell, if KQ7 had been the last game, I would have considered it unsatifsying ending :p (it was a let down after I played KQ6)...

KQ6, is probably the only game in the series that could have existed as a kind of decent epilogue.

But that still doesn't discount the fact, that KQ8, didn't hurt the series directly. Sierra hurt the series by choosing not to make another one, and thus never giving KQ9 a chance (even though KQ8 was the best selling KQ game of all time).

Speaking of no accounting for taste, the remake of KQ1 was actually pretty much hated by most KQ fans when it was released (seen as recoloring a black and white movie). It sold poorly, hurt the chance of making an official remake of KQ2. It might actually be the least successful KQ game of all time :p... Though I think its gained popularity by more 2nd or 3rd generation fans, and inspired the fan remake. But seriously its later following, doesn't really have a bearing on its 'success'. Actually the overall distate for the Sierra remakes affected all the remakes, and not just the KQ1 remake unfortunately. The only one that saw any success I think was Mixed-Up Mother Goose that saw like four remakes.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Lambonius

The problem with most of the Sierra remakes is that they don't really make substantial improvements over the originals.  Take KQ1 for example--it's just a graphical overhaul, pure and simple (a few puzzle tweaks here and there but nothing substantial.)  It doesn't even change the interface significantly, since it's still a parser game.  Even the Sierra remakes that changed the graphics into VGA and added the point and click interface are barely improvements over the originals (and in some cases, like Police Quest 1 VGA and the awful QFG1VGA, actually suffer quite a bit from their "improvements"--QFG1VGA completely loses the unique graphical atmosphere of its EGA predecessor, for example, and PQ1VGA adds in the horrendously bad driving system from later games in the series.)  The one exception to this, in my opinion, is SQ1VGA, which adds enough cool extras and re-imagined scenes to be not only worth the effort it took to remake, but also a substantial improvement over the original in many respects.

drunkenmonkey

Mask of Eternity was really a mix of different genres. It was the first attempt at a 3D world. It was an enjoyable game and allot of new information about the world of King's Quest can be learned from it.

Many great adventure games series moved away from point and click and on to action adventure: Monkey Island, Broken Sword, Simon the Sorcerer and Indy to name a few.

I think that MoE was trying to be too many things at once and the hack and slash elements were the most emphasized and actual puzzle solving like killing the basilisk for instance were few and far between. The puzzles and riddles were there but you usually had to take out hoards of enemies to reach them. So someone expecting to play a straight adventure game might have been disappointed. I think that a mask of eternity remake with a more adventure like gameplay would sell today.

An adventure game that I would recommend is 'Tale of a Hero'. http://www.adventure-archiv.com/t/taleofheropreviewe.htm I have to say that it is as close to being a King's Quest game without being, in terms of Quests and Magic and Characters and plays like a classic adventure. I'd like a future King's Quest game to be just like it.

Baggins

#18
While I understand what you are saying, and probably mostly agree. IMO, you are underplaying the changes made in KQ1SCI. It has quite a few graphical changes, that change the atmosphere of the original game, in about the same way SQ1 remake changed the atmosphere of SQ1.

For example in KQ1 original the whole world was pretty much bright, and happy. Very Disney fairy talesque.

The remake made the world much darker, and dreary. Going so far to create a dark section of the forest, its also much more densely forested. The extended script in the game with descriptions for almost everything, added to the atmosphere. In the original you basically got the proverbial red X's if you tried to look at the screens', "I don't know what you want", blah blah" I don't know 'what" that is". The game also saw some overhauls for certain areas like suspended paths through mountain, instead of stairs, and a different more difficult beanstalk maze sequence.

You are right about the puzzle tweaks though, most involved removing the introduction and conclusion puzzles, and turning them into automatic cinemas. A few items were changed, and locations were moved. Otherwise once you find the puzzles, they are mostly the same. There is a slight difference in the Dragon's Lair, and how the dragon is defeated, but in general the same puzzle.

However, I'd say the changes are enough, that it doesn't really fit in with other games in the series (and feels somewhat of a reboot). Especially when many of the other games, actually are built upon references to the original KQ, rather than the remake.

PQ1? Well ya, I personally do enjoy the original for that as well. It's got better puzzles, the remake simplified and removed quite a few puzzles actually. Driving in the original was a unique experience, more finicky, and arcade like. Alot of fun. Then don't get me started on how certain characters saw name and/or sex changes in the remake... The remake is set chronologically after PQ3, so there are alot of continuity issues (it doesn't really fit as a true remake, but more of a reboot).

Now, LSL, eh, I preferred the remake... The original really is dated.

and QFG1, eh I still think Town of Spielburg looks hideous in the original so garrish, :p... It doesn't look that good, compared to the EGA graphics in QFG2 (or KQ4) imo. But I do like the interactivity in original alot more.

SQ? Well, ya it probably is my favorite remake of the bunch. It changes the style alot, there are some nice extra items that make things a bit easier (magnet), and changes to items (the plant becomes something useulf), and has a much more defined script. Overall, it maintained 98% of the puzzles/items in original (with a few things that mixed it up a bit). Granted it really kind of screws with SQ4...
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

MusicallyInspired

#19
The KQ1SCI remake is fantastic. Josh Mandel, who directed the project, even re-wrote much if not all of the dialogue in the game. It is a substantial improvement over the original.

And the soundtrack is fantastic.