Author Topic: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction  (Read 11655 times)

Offline Baggins

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2010, 11:12:43 PM »
Yes, the soundtrack is the best part of KQ1SCI remake. Although I personally love both equally. Ya, Josh Mandel did most of the changes to the script, and puzzles in the game. Roberta was busy making KQ5 at the time, and did very little on it according to Josh. He'd just ask her a few questions every now and then, to make sure she approved of his new ideas.

Come to think of it, in most cases, each of the remakes offered considerably expanded or altered scripts..

QFG1 didn't really change the script much, except in a few locations (and to add in references to later games). Bust most the text was the same as in the original. A big change was to the Black Bird, to foreshadow that the one in the Brigand Fortress was the real one, and would be seen again in QFG5. But those kind of references were rare.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 11:19:40 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Bludshot

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2010, 09:29:06 AM »
Frankly I like it better than KQ 2,4, and 5.  But I can admit it was an inappropriate direction for the series.
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Offline Blackthorne

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2010, 10:32:01 AM »
I was having a bit of fun declaring that "it sucks", but my real feelings aren't far off.  I just don't think it's a very good game, and I agree with Katie - it's sales and popularity at the time really had everything to do with it's name.  If the game was called "Connor's Adventures", I don't think it would have sold much.  It's a pretty mediocre and average game.

I mean, it was a noble experiment, I suppose - and I don't think it "killed" King's Quest.  I think the death of Sierra killed King's Quest.   I've found with MOE that you'll either have a faction of people who really like it and defend it heavily, and there's another faction which really hates it and will spend all the time and effort they have to deride it!

I do think that with today's gaming engines, a game like MOE would be cool.  I was playing Red Dead Redemption the other day, and I actually thought that if you could make a Sierra-like adventure game with that engine, you'd have a pretty cool game.


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Offline wilco64256

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2010, 10:37:18 AM »
I agree with Blackthorne here - if the game hadn't included the "King's Quest" label and had been called something totally unrelated it would have had abysmal sales and wouldn't even be discussed much these days.  As it is, it's not the absolute worst game I've ever played, but I'm not especially fond of it either.
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Offline KatieHal

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2010, 10:46:22 AM »
Ooh, but what IS the worst game you've ever played? *runs off to start a new topic*

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Offline Baggins

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2010, 11:13:23 AM »
Actually at the time KQ8, was actually ahead of most things out at the time. It was praised because it pushed the limits of then technology (every KQ game was known for pushing the technology). It was way ahead of most things on the market at the time.

Technology has obviously bypassed it, since then.

Let's face it I think its a better game than Doom... and people still praise doom... Both were innovative for their time, and both have become dated by modern technology.

If I was going by modern standards, most older games would be mediocre by today's standards. That would mean the entire KQ series... People still enjoy old atari games, and nintendo games, but imo many of them simply haven't aged gracefully, and I don't find much fun in many of them anymore...

Actually, the name on the cover, had nothing to do with KQ8's success, it was said by Roberta, most of the sales were from new players, that had never played King's Quest before. It certainly maintained some of the core fan base, but the core fan base wasn't really all that big to begin with. It was the new players that latched onto it the most, and gave it best ratings. While some of the older players, gave it lower ratings. But in general most critics rated it as 70% or so. Not the best, but certainly not "poor". Let's face it poor games don't get better ratings, for simply having a popular "name" on them... There are plenty of modern series, with entries given poor ratings... Why because the reviewers don't see them as being any good... Having a popular 'name' doesn't guerentee a good rating.

From what I've been discovering KQ7, actually had pretty middling/poor ratings as well, might even be as low as overall 60%, but it didn't draw in as many new fans as previous games. As she pointed out, she had received alot of hate mail for KQ7 from older fans, but she never let it bother her. It might actually be the lowest rated KQ game.

Its interesting to note that two popular adventure gaming sites, gave KQ7, between 40% and 50%  (D) rating back when the gave their ratings for the game...

Strangely enough they gave Mask of Eternity, around an 80% (B) and 100%.

Like I said you can never account for taste, and each mileage will vary. But it seems if KQ8 had remained close to KQ7 in style, it probably wouldn't have gotten very high marks by the industry, and probably still would have failed as a 'proper ending to the series'... Either way KQ8 probably still would have been a 'cult classic' of a sort.

Like I said, I think KQ6 is the only game of the series, that maintained consistent high marks across the board. NOthing less than an 80.

Most of the other games, have mixed reviews. People either love them or hate them. You have fans that came in during point and click era, that absolutely hate the parser era. there were fans that played from the beginning but were turned off by the icon-driven systems. they couldn't  please everyone.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 11:41:07 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline wilco64256

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2010, 12:03:04 PM »
True, it was pretty advanced for its time but that also brought its own set of problems.  I couldn't even play it for several years as I didn't have a computer that could handle it, and even when I did later I still had to set things up pretty low and the load/unload times were atrocious.

Personally I like Doom, Hexen, etc. quite a bit better than MoE (proof in the pudding is that I still play those from time to time, I have only ever played all the way through MoE twice in my life).  I feel like the type of secrets and bonuses those games give actually fit the overall gameplay than MoE's "Congratulations on finally finding that object, now spend half an hour backtracking to use it where it belongs."

I actually still even have a fully functional Atari with about 3 dozen games and many of them are still plenty of fun (Pitfall on a 60 inch Plasma HDTV, woot!), and I have a number of original NES and SNES games that I think are better than many "modern" game entries.  Earthbound is one of my very favorite RPG's ever, and Solomon's Key from NES has always been a favorite puzzler in my book.

I just don't think that Mask of Eternity has aged as well as a lot of other games from back then.  Possibly because I haven't had anywhere near as much trouble getting any other classic game running on a modern machine as I have Mask, and now that I have been able to get it running it's still the glitchiest game on my system.
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Offline Baggins

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2010, 12:10:21 PM »
Quote
True, it was pretty advanced for its time but that also brought its own set of problems.  I couldn't even play it for several years as I didn't have a computer that could handle it, and even when I did later I still had to set things up pretty low and the load/unload times were atrocious.
That might actually be one of the reasons KQ7 got such abysmall reviews as well. That full animation, and requirement to use windows, probably kept it out of the hands ot alot of people

Quote
Personally I like Doom, Hexen, etc. quite a bit better than MoE (proof in the pudding is that I still play those from time to time, I have only ever played all the way through MoE twice in my life).  I feel like the type of secrets and bonuses those games give actually fit the overall gameplay than MoE's "Congratulations on finally finding that object, now spend half an hour backtracking to use it where it belongs."
I've played Doom maybe twice.. Hexen only once (never completed it). I've played MoE about 5-6 times. That is probably 3 more times than I've played KQ7. KQ6 I've played probably a dozen times.

But ya, backtracking... I remember doing that in Doom for keycards :p...
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I actually still even have a fully functional Atari with about 3 dozen games and many of them are still plenty of fun (Pitfall on a 60 inch Plasma HDTV, woot!), and I have a number of original NES and SNES games that I think are better than many "modern" game entries.  Earthbound is one of my very favorite RPG's ever, and Solomon's Key from NES has always been a favorite puzzler in my book.
I like pitfall for a short time, but its not really my cup of tea. No story, and always semed neverending.

Of course Earthbound is a good game, its an RPG with all the bells and whistles. Good graphics, and interesting story. Never played SK, so can't comment.

I can say Zelda and Mario games are still fun to play from time to time. But not something I go back to play often. Mostly do come back to play each new title in the series though.

Quote
I just don't think that Mask of Eternity has aged as well as a lot of other games from back then.  Possibly because I haven't had anywhere near as much trouble getting any other classic game running on a modern machine as I have Mask, and now that I have been able to get it running it's still the glitchiest game on my system
.

I definitely agree MOE is very buggy. I've had to create my own technical guide to figure out how to get past the various bugs. I've put it up on the KQ Omnipedia, for anyone struggling. The game causes alot of memory exception errors.

As for appearances, KQ8 is by far the ugliest King's Quest game if you don't play it with 'glide emulation'. The pixels are distracting, and not in the nostalgic 8-bit way of the early KQ games. If you have glide enabled, it looks pretty decent. I like the animated lyp synching, and it has pretty nice texture artwork variety. If you compare it to games of that era, it looked quite a bit better in that department.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 12:19:20 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline MusicallyInspired

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2010, 01:20:04 PM »
Someone should remake MOE in Oblivion or something and do it properly. That would be fantastic...

Offline Baggins

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2010, 01:35:10 PM »
Well I know some people have been able to examine the files, and pull out a few unused graphics in the game. I wish I knew how to do that. I've always wondered what else the bowels of the game might hide... Extra script material like KQ6? Extra voice files like in KQ7?

If the sound and voice files could be pulled out, it probably wouldn't be that difficult to convert them over to another engine. A new interface would have to be created though.

I think if the game was completely playable, and didn't have the bugs, it probably help things out a lot...
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Lambonius

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2010, 03:06:57 PM »
KQ8 was beautiful in its day.  At the time it had one of the most advanced dynamic lighting effect systems yet done in a 3D game.  If you had a proper Voodoo card and a decent machine, it was a true beauty in an era when 3D games were struggling to even look decent compared to their 2D predecessors.  It pains me to hear so many people deriding KQ8's graphics comparing it to modern games.  Yeah, no s***.  It looks crappy compared to Oblivion or Red Dead.  But it was one of the best looking games yet when it was released.  So many people forget that.  It blew games like Tomb Raider out of the water.

Offline Blackthorne

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2010, 03:13:29 PM »
Even if a bunch of the players were new players, the game had enough of Sierra's clout and The King's Quest name brand to command a good share of frontal shelf placement, putting the game into the eyes of the consumer.  Plus, if you add experienced salespeople pitching the game, THEY probably knew about King's Quest and threw out reccomendations on their behalf.  

Like I said, without the Sierra name or King's Quest branding, it would have faded into obscurity.   I know you say it was groundbreaking when it came out, but I played it then and I was unimpressed.

In the end, I'll say this: do you seem teams of talented artists, writers and programmers making new King's Quest games in the style of MOE?  Because I haven't...


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Offline Baggins

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2010, 03:27:12 PM »
Which doesn't make much logical sense, because you can find reviews, stating that MOE, was a great game, just didn't feel like a KQ game. Back then. I still find people who claim MOE is a great game, just not a great KQ game.

Putting the KQ on the title might have actually held some people back from getting it (since they might have been midled thinking it was an adventure game, rather than action game). If it had been purely advertised as an original game, if these reviews are to be believed, then they think it would have sold more. They only lowed there rating because it was part of the series, and because for them it didn't feel like the series (not forgetting that some of these may have rated KQ7 even lower, for whatever reasons).

Now tell, me how can people have such mixed view points, it can't be both ways really? Either the name helped its sells, or as some would have you believe it actually hurt its sales (despiting being the best selling adventure game that year)... HMM.
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In the end, I'll say this: do you seem teams of talented artists, writers and programmers making new King's Quest games in the style of MOE?  Because I haven't...
I don't see many "talented teams, artists' etc making making 'new' KQ games period, TSL excluded... Let's face it, as of yet, there is no commercial professionals (as in financially professional) team out there, willing to risk making a commercial KQ game... So your hypothetical really doesn't mean much. If TSL was marketed, and was making money then we could possibly judge things on even grounds. But some non-profit bootleg game doesn't really show us how a modern KQ game would succeed.

If KQ8 had been made to be, another KQ7, or traditional style, it probably would have failed (adventure games simply weren't successful, the ratings for KQ7 showed the downhill trend)... Have we seen any more QFG or Gabriel Knights, or Space Quest 7? We'd still be discussing the collapse of the adventure game today... All roads lead to Chainsaw Monday...

Imo, if a KQ8 was made with modern technology, of now, it would probably would have been much higher success... As Assassin's Creed, and the like have shown...  The team would have probably been able to include the levels they had to cut due to technical limitations (undersea levels, swimming etc). But you that's getting to much into the realm of "what-ifs".
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 03:45:22 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Blackthorne

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2010, 06:03:16 PM »
I'm merely talking in terms of popularity and belovedness.  AGDI, IA and POS have put together some pretty great games (if I do say so myself) and the style of the games doesn't lean towards what MOE did.

No doubt a MOE game made with today's engines would be pretty awesome.  Actually, I'd really, really like to see that.  But MOE as it stands then, and as it holds up now?  I'm not interested.

You hear that budding game-makers?  Someone needs to get on either remaking MOE in a modern engine, or "unofficial" Mask of Eternity II: Electric Boogaloo!


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Offline wilco64256

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2010, 06:05:03 PM »
I do actually think that if Mask of Eternity were redesigned as a standalone game using modern technology and setup it could potentially do quite well.  I actually wouldn't link it to King's Quest at all any more though, just because there is so much negative hype about it being sort of the "black sheep" of the series.  But if a company rebuilt it from the ground up as its own game with some updated gameplay elements it could possibly be quite good.  It just needs more good things to it, if it had more expansion to the RPG element or the adventure element or the action element it would be better, as all of those elements exist in the game but none of them to a high enough degree in my opinion.
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Offline Blackthorne

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2010, 11:17:02 PM »
You know, I'd really love to see a modern 3D remake of King's Quest I.... just as a curiosity.  It'd be a pretty neat little tech demo to see what it'd be like.  I wonder if an old adventure game could be translated like that.... the original game as a full, open world 3D game.... might be fun.


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get older - but in the end you'll pack up, fly down south, hide your head in the sand.  Just another sad old man, all alone and dying of cancer." - Dogs, Pink Floyd.

Offline Cez

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2010, 02:27:25 PM »
I remember  being at college and making excuses to not go out with my friends so I could go home and play MoE. I normally didn't do that with a lot of games, so I did enjoy the game a lot. It probably reminded me of Alone in the Dark, which I had enjoyed immensely, and it was a very rare type of game to come across. So, in that sense, I enjoyed the game a lot, not as a King's Quest, but as a game on its own.


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Offline ladydragon

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2010, 10:10:26 PM »
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I only played the Mask of Eternity once. I suppose it was an ok game. I got used to the fighting, but I really
wanted to find out what happened to graham and family.  There fore I did not care for connor.
I hated the loading times as well, and I thought the ending was pathetic.
you took the words right out of my mouth. It seem like they were going a total NEW direction alright, it should have been named something else, it really was not associated with the typical King's Quest stories...which is about the Graham's. Not that I hated the game entirely, it just was not the King's Quest I was use to.

Offline Baggins

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2010, 10:24:19 PM »
Ya, Connor, the character that evolved from being initially a pinochio character, to a peasant... Here is a few details about why he was chosen;

Quote
Roberta apparently chose Connor, because she felt she couldn't do anything more with the Royal Family, King Graham was getting too old and Alexander was living in the Land of the Green Isles.[2]

Roberta also has said; "The only character from previous King's Quests will be a couple of cameo appearances by King Graham. I felt that it was time to feature a new character to the saga of King's Quest as long as we were updating the whole look and feel of the series."[3]

Roberta has stated that the general idea of the story remained the same throughout the various phases, but that she never really changed her ideas very much (though some material may have been reduced).

Were there any other storylines thought about before the current one? Describe a few of them.
Not really. The basic idea of a golden, all-powerful, sacred "mask" having something to do with a terrible crisis in the land was pretty much the essence of the story from the very beginning. And having a "normal guy" who lives in the kingdom of Daventry be the one to fix this problem was also part of the storyline. Now, as to exactly who he was, and what exactly


You know what? Another reason I hate KQ7 (I don't really "hate" it, just probably consider it my least favorite KQ game) it lacked King Graham in any form... Sure KQ8 didn't use him much more than a cameo, but at least he was there... Even if it would  have been nice to see more of him. It was also nice to at least see Valanice if only as a painting :p... I also think it was kinda cool to a hero going about saving the Royal Family. But ya, people either love or hate Connor.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 09:31:39 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline drunkenmonkey

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Re: KQ8's Action/Adventure direction
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2010, 10:36:50 PM »
I actually saw Mask of Eternity as passing of the torch somewhat. Showing how Daventry is once again a prosperous Kingdom and now as a new character discovering more about the town and surrounding cities and areas. The Hillmen were a nice addition. I would have liked to see more of them. Of course a sequel would have been nice after finding out all of this. With maybe cameos from the Daventry family.

But with this game, Roberta's vision just didn't seem to work. If they had waited a few years for better technology and maybe had a bigger budget to make a King's Quest MMO or something I don't think anyone would be complaining. King's Quest in an Oblivion or Dragon Age style would have been awesome.
 

anything