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Phoenix Online Studios => The Silver Lining => General => Topic started by: dark-daventry on February 17, 2011, 02:51:19 PM

Title: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: dark-daventry on February 17, 2011, 02:51:19 PM
The downloads have begun, the Episode is being played, and now it's time for you to express your opinions on it! What did you think? What did you like, love, hate? We welcome constructive criticism as well as positive feedback.

Remember, please keep sensitive plot information inside spoiler tags--there's a handy button on the toolbar above the typing area that will help you hide your spoilers!
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Enchantermon on February 17, 2011, 09:22:08 PM
There's an interesting bug I've noticed on more than one occasion; I'll be in one part of the screen and click to interact with an object on another part and get the crown icon, but Graham doesn't start walking; he just stands and continues to cycle through his idle animations. After a few seconds, he suddenly appears over by the object and interacts with it. I've seen this by the pawn shop on the Isle of the Crown and at the base of the Isle of the Sacred Mountain (and I think in one other spot I can't recall at this time).

I like how the narrator has much nicer comments to give when you try things that don't work. Much better.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: snabbott on February 17, 2011, 09:27:57 PM
The bug you mention happens when Graham gets stuck - after a certain amount of time, the game teleports him to the destination. It's not great, but at least you're not stuck forever.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Enchantermon on February 17, 2011, 09:29:52 PM
Quote from: snabbott on February 17, 2011, 09:27:57 PM
The bug you mention happens when Graham gets stuck - after a certain amount of time, the game teleports him to the destination. It's not great, but at least you're not stuck forever.
Odd...this fix doesn't seem to kick in when I get stuck [spoiler]on the Isle of Wonder when those freakin' snapdragons grab a hold of me! ;)[/spoiler]
Just kidding. Yeah, that is more preferable than him just getting stuck forever.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: drunkenmonkey on February 18, 2011, 02:40:53 AM
Wow, I was blown away by the ending animation. And what you learn, it's like everything is all starting to piece together and King's Quest comes full circle.

The Lieutenant was very funny. Negative!

I do think many players will struggle with episode, not knowing what to do or where to go. It really wasn't made clear. The conversations were fillers and didn't contribute much to the puzzles.

The action sequence was fantastic. This episode definitely improved on the last episode and we learned a bit more about what's going on, but it was still Graham collecting more ingredients which was a bit disappointing even with the uniqueness of the tasks. But that just means that the spell will be ready next episode. I enjoyed the sneak peek. Looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: tessspoon on February 18, 2011, 03:56:16 PM
Just finished.

You guys weren't kidding about any of it, amazing episode! :D

And the ending sequence! :o I don't even know what to think yet, still trying to process everything, but wow...
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: daventry on February 18, 2011, 05:09:33 PM
[spoiler]Where did you guys come up with the idea that Valanice is some Druid or something, do you guys make this stuff up as you go along to Close the Book on KQ so we could have our Questions Answered or are these things True.  ??? ??? ???[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: snabbott on February 18, 2011, 05:13:56 PM
Quote from: daventry on February 18, 2011, 05:09:33 PM
[spoiler]Where did you guys come up with the idea that Valanice is some Druid or something, do you guys make this stuff up as you go along to Close the Book on KQ so we could have our Questions Answered or are these things True.  ??? ??? ???[/spoiler]
True? This is fiction. And it's fan fiction, so it's not official.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: KatieHal on February 18, 2011, 05:14:39 PM
Daventry, please remember to use spoiler tags for new information from the Episodes. I edited your post to put them in.

[spoiler]Any "new information" in our game is purely our creation; it's not an official game, if that's what you mean by "true." The decisions we made with the story will play out over the remaining Episodes so you can see where we're going with them overall.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: daventry on February 18, 2011, 05:17:25 PM
So if theres a Real KQ9 how or what would be needed to be Explained so the Book can be Closed on the KQ Franchise so to speak.

Dont get me wrong, i Love TSL and this is the Closest to Answering Questions as you can get since the Main Plothole in the KQ Series (KQ5/KQ6) is the Black Cloak Soeciety and so far, you guys are doing an Awsome Job in Explaining it.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: snabbott on February 18, 2011, 05:39:29 PM
Well, TSL is Phoenix's way of trying to bring closure to the series. It's not going to do it for everybody. I think there could be a whole thread of people's opinions of what it would take to bring them closure. (And some people probably don't think there's a need for closure.) Feel free to start one if you want. :)
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Lambonius on February 18, 2011, 06:29:41 PM
Yeah, I'm of the camp that the series had plenty of closure as is, especially after the end of KQ7 when it seemed both of Daventry's royal children had found their significant others.  The only reason people felt like closure was need was because KQ8 was such a flop.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: DragonsQuest on February 18, 2011, 06:58:52 PM
Finished earlier today!
[spoiler]Great job in this episode phoenix online! I could really feel myself getting into the story for this episode even more then the last one. Lot of great moments, and interesting puzzles. The butterfly puzzle frustrated me a lot, especially when trying to figure out how to get rid of the cobwebs. Then all of a sudden the pawn shop was open and I figured out how to get the trade item pretty quickly. The snapping dragons really annoyed me. "I can't reach" is probably burned into my skull now. lol All I had to do was get Graham to whistle, and I thought he had to get Alexander's flute so I spent a lot of time trying to get it. I tried to click the dialogue button on the plants,but that didn't work so it took me forever to get by that one. The chess puzzle wasn't too hard, but took a little time to get the pattern. I thought the part speaking to mother nature was cool, but too short. The dream sequence was awesome, but I died a lot, especially the carriage part. I noticed a graphics glitch after I first arrived in the dream and met the shadow dragon for the first time before the horse ride I found that after I died 1 time to the creature after I restored he was invisible. He could still kill me if I tried to walk beyond the pace he was guarding, but I couldn't see him. The game also seemed to crash a lot on loading areas. The candle puzzle was hard for me, because I had it in my head that I was suppose to be find out what zodiac sign represented each member of Graham's family, so I had Taurus for Graham, Cancer for Valiance, Aries for Rosella, and Pisces for Alex based on what the article said and their personality's. When I finally figured out it was to make magic items from the books it was fairly easy to guess which candles to light, but wow I really was off track on that one. I was able to figure out the salt puzzle pretty easily. The crescent moon one I got after I tried every item on  the tree. The guardian was pretty fun as was seeing stick-in-the-mud and rotten tomato. Though I still wish I could go to the swamp section of the island. I was disappointed on not being able to go to the Island of the Beast, but I see that will be in next episode, so I'm happy.Lot's of great cutscenes in this as well.  [/spoiler]

Anyway great job! It was worth the wait!
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: jsh357 on February 18, 2011, 10:54:48 PM
Not too much to say here; it was as good as the previous episode and I'm looking forward to the rest.  Some of the puzzles were frustrating, but that's not really a new thing in this series.  I really like the extra depth being added to the characters more than anything else about the game, and this episode didn't fail to deliver on that front.

I do think there was a lot of walking back and forth (and waiting on animations/load times) but there's not really too much that can be done given the structure of the game. 

All in all, good work.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: zz on February 18, 2011, 11:20:37 PM
Does anybody else experience a problem when talking to Edgar? I try to talk to him and only one topic springs up. After that, it won't allow me to say 'goodbye' and I have to quit the game and restart to get out of the screen. It also occurs with the genie in the cove.
Anywho, other than that, so far so good.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: wilco64256 on February 18, 2011, 11:22:26 PM
Quote from: zz on February 18, 2011, 11:20:37 PM
Does anybody else experience a problem when talking to Edgar? I try to talk to him and only one topic springs up. After that, it won't allow me to say 'goodbye' and I have to quit the game and restart to get out of the screen. Anywho, other than that, so far so good.

Try over in the tech support forum, I just posted a patch for that very problem.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: dark-daventry on February 18, 2011, 11:24:08 PM
Quote from: zz on February 18, 2011, 11:20:37 PM
Does anybody else experience a problem when talking to Edgar? I try to talk to him and only one topic springs up. After that, it won't allow me to say 'goodbye' and I have to quit the game and restart to get out of the screen. Anywho, other than that, so far so good.

Please look here (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=10122.msg315668#new) for the patch. I hope that helps!
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: zz on February 18, 2011, 11:27:21 PM
Quote from: dark-daventry on February 18, 2011, 11:24:08 PM
Quote from: zz on February 18, 2011, 11:20:37 PM
Does anybody else experience a problem when talking to Edgar? I try to talk to him and only one topic springs up. After that, it won't allow me to say 'goodbye' and I have to quit the game and restart to get out of the screen. Anywho, other than that, so far so good.

Please look here (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=10122.msg315668#new) for the patch. I hope that helps!

Thanks, I'll give it a try and sorry for not looking around in the correct forum...boy do i feel sheepish.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: dark-daventry on February 18, 2011, 11:29:53 PM
Quote from: zz on February 18, 2011, 11:27:21 PM
Quote from: dark-daventry on February 18, 2011, 11:24:08 PM
Quote from: zz on February 18, 2011, 11:20:37 PM
Does anybody else experience a problem when talking to Edgar? I try to talk to him and only one topic springs up. After that, it won't allow me to say 'goodbye' and I have to quit the game and restart to get out of the screen. Anywho, other than that, so far so good.

Please look here (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=10122.msg315668#new) for the patch. I hope that helps!

Thanks, I'll give it a try

No problem. Just doing what I can to help. There have been a lot of issues with the release, even with all of our extra time to care for it all. Just imagine what would have happened if we released this back in January! That would have been disastrous! But rest assured, any post-release bugs that are found, we're working on fixing as fast as we can. Don't shy away from reporting them though; sometimes we miss things.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: zz on February 18, 2011, 11:37:29 PM


No problem. Just doing what I can to help. There have been a lot of issues with the release, even with all of our extra time to care for it all. Just imagine what would have happened if we released this back in January! That would have been disastrous! But rest assured, any post-release bugs that are found, we're working on fixing as fast as we can. Don't shy away from reporting them though; sometimes we miss things.
[/quote]

Haha, now Edgar is missing completely but if i click on the bench, i still talk to him! Now that is creepy. HAHA
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Hbech on February 18, 2011, 11:43:43 PM
Oh yes, and I just love the music from this episode. It is epic and beautiful and awesomeness!
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: daventry on February 19, 2011, 01:19:39 AM
Quote from: snabbott on February 18, 2011, 05:39:29 PMWell, TSL is Phoenix's way of trying to bring closure to the series. It's not going to do it for everybody. I think there could be a whole thread of people's opinions of what it would take to bring them closure. (And some people probably don't think there's a need for closure.) Feel free to start one if you want. :)
I wouldent even know how to start my own Version of a KQ Closng the Book part, since you guys arent AGDI/IA/TellTale Remaking KQ in your Own Funny Version so to speak, to me, this is Official Stuff to KQ9 as i can see it.

I dont remember much about the Previous KQ Games, but the Only Confusion about them were The Black Cloack, its like a Big Chunk of a Diffrent Story being put into the Game, i bet if Jane Jenson Never Menchioned the Black Cloak, there would have been no need for TSL.
Quote from: Lambonius on February 18, 2011, 06:29:41 PMYeah, I'm of the camp that the series had plenty of closure as is, especially after the end of KQ7 when it seemed both of Daventry's royal children had found their significant others.  The only reason people felt like closure was need was because KQ8 was such a flop.
KQ8 should have Never been made, you cant make some KQ Game into an RPG Style with a Character that has No relation to the Royal Family and expect to end it right there.

Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Enchantermon on February 19, 2011, 06:33:43 AM
So I haven't finished yet, but I wanted to lay out something that has become quite irritating. I don't remember being irritated by this in the other episodes; not sure why, either (unless it came along with Episode 3). Every time I do something that causes the cursor to change to the picture of a crown, when it returns control to me, it always reverts back to the Walk icon no matter what icon I previously had. Like I said, this has gotten to be quite irritating; could this be changed at least when Episode 4 is released so that it reverts back to the last icon you used? And I'm not just suggesting this because "this the way Sierra did it, so this is the only way it should be done," but because it just makes sense. Thanks for listening. :)
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Sslaxx on February 19, 2011, 07:15:42 AM
One thing that might be amusing is having one of the guards growl at you if you're entering Cassima's bedroom after you get them in trouble with the meat...
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Big C from Cauney island on February 19, 2011, 09:03:44 AM
Here is my review of the episode:

5/5

This is by far the best episode, but let me explain why and then I will give any criticism (if any).  First off, the puzzles are WAY BETTER here.  I had made a post about episode 2 a while back, and I had made the critique of multi-step puzzles and more variety. You achieved this in full. a VERY good variety of puzzles, and MANY of them.
Physical puzzles, action sequence (though i didn't find it too tough), how objects were used, and multiple parts too one puzzle. The game took me 5 hours to complete, but ONLY because I looked at the hints section. If I hadn't, god only knows.  This felt like a true kings quest.  I'm still not a huge fan of episodic gaming, but this is the correct size of an episode for going that route. 

Also, it seemed like the animations were much better. The new additions to the team helped a lot I suppose.
Man, that (spoiler) scared the $#% out of me.  Nice!

There were so many points I didn't know what to do.  But that's good. That's classic kings quest.

The only criticism I have is that the game would shut down every 30 minutes or so, and the downloaded patch didn't work.   

The most important thing for me is that now, the game not only felt kings quest, but PLAYED like a true kings quest in all ways.  Cez was right, it was beast, and I am only finished because I cheated. I mean, almost every puzzle I had to look at the hint section (no exaggeration). I was so excited, I was up until 3 am last night, then got up extra early to play again!  Some suprising twists in the story as well.

Story, puzzles, variety... and lets not forget Austin. Once again, his music is on point.  I swear, he could work for any gaming company and make music.  I would be shocked if he didn't get hired on somewhere due to TSL.
Really guys, I've shared my critiques before, and I honestly say I have not a one aside from my technical issues. Not a one. Bravo.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Ultima992 on February 19, 2011, 09:17:51 AM
My Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3  :o

Episode 3 - Was great. As the last poster (BIG C) Said. "This felt like a true kings quest." For me it brought me back further then that. To other games i used to play, the many hours of watching my brothers and dad play the game or older games similar to it, then playing the games myself still confused as what I am really doing ( Being 5 years old ). Episode 3 was really great. You guys really put allot of thought into it, and im sure the next Episodes are going to be just as good. I enjoyed the puzzles thats what i was hoping for. Great work you all! Everybody, from programmers to beta testers, to the people to just manage things, It took a team effort and you guys did it right!

Congrats on a great Episode 3 (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/Themes/Anecdot/images/star.gif)(http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/Themes/Anecdot/images/star.gif)(http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/Themes/Anecdot/images/star.gif)(http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/Themes/Anecdot/images/star.gif)(http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/Themes/Anecdot/images/star.gif)
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: wilco64256 on February 19, 2011, 09:19:29 AM
Quote from: Enchantermon on February 19, 2011, 06:33:43 AM
So I haven't finished yet, but I wanted to lay out something that has become quite irritating. I don't remember being irritated by this in the other episodes; not sure why, either (unless it came along with Episode 3). Every time I do something that causes the cursor to change to the picture of a crown, when it returns control to me, it always reverts back to the Walk icon no matter what icon I previously had. Like I said, this has gotten to be quite irritating; could this be changed at least when Episode 4 is released so that it reverts back to the last icon you used? And I'm not just suggesting this because "this the way Sierra did it, so this is the only way it should be done," but because it just makes sense. Thanks for listening. :)

If you grab that patch I posted for the "Goodbye" bug in the tech support forum it should also resolve this issue.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: KatieHal on February 19, 2011, 09:23:14 AM
Thank you guys! I'm thrilled to hear you're enjoying it. It was a beast, and we have had some technical issues, but we took some big risks with both gameplay and story here, and it's great to see people are liking both of them! (I know they won't be for everyone.)
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Big C from Cauney island on February 19, 2011, 09:37:21 AM
Quote from: KatieHal on February 19, 2011, 09:23:14 AM
Thank you guys! I'm thrilled to hear you're enjoying it. It was a beast, and we have had some technical issues, but we took some big risks with both gameplay and story here, and it's great to see people are liking both of them! (I know they won't be for everyone.)


Thank you guys for making it.  Everyone has a different perspective on what kings quest is and what not.
Regardless, gameplay wise I REALLY had to think. And when I looked at the hint section, I slapped my forehead.
It wasn't to the point were it was unsolvable, but I just wasn't getting it.  One puzzle in particular confused me some, but I should have done more reading.  But I just kept getting excited because just when I solved a puzzle, I'd just find another that stumped me.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: writerlove on February 19, 2011, 10:03:12 AM
I'm enjoying the game as well. I'm not done yet  but it's a great game. It's recapturing the frustrating and yet rewarding aspects of adventure games. I forgot how frustrating it can be to be stuck on a puzzle. The pure excitement after you figure the puzzle out is part of the thrill. The Hints section has been a huge help as well. I'd have the Hints section of the board open while I played the game in windowed mode, lolz. The voice acting is wonderful, and man, Austin has delivered again on the music. Perfect accompaniment to the game.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: adamstan on February 19, 2011, 01:39:31 PM
Hello :-)

This is really great game - a true King's Quest, as many have said above.

I'd like to mention one thing that wasn't mentioned yet - the song that plays on credits. It's BEAUTIFUL, and Amy is great singer. Thank you for this - it brought back memories of playing AGDI KQ2+ back in 2004 and hearing Valanice's song.

It was long waiting for TSL - but it was worth it.


------edit---------
Well, now I see, that the song was present from the beginning. I must admit, that on earlier episodes, I skipped the credits, but final EP3 cutscene was so enchanting...

And from this forum I've learned, that KQ6 had a song as well - unfortunately I've only played floppy version.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Enchantermon on February 19, 2011, 02:32:34 PM
Quote from: wilco64256 on February 19, 2011, 09:19:29 AMIf you grab that patch I posted for the "Goodbye" bug in the tech support forum it should also resolve this issue.
Ah, so this was a bug? Okay, cool. I've applied the patch, but I haven't gotten to play any more today. Thanks.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Talos on February 19, 2011, 04:25:22 PM
This is the first episode which feels like a "full" one, and that is definitely something to cheer about.

The major issue is bugs, and that is purely a technical one which I am sure can be solved soon enough. We got what we "paid" for.  ;)

The other issue is how little Valanice speaks, and why King Graham doesn't just talk to her about the shocking revelations. Still, I know that this product was originally intended to be much, MUCH larger, so you all had to work with what you had, not the footage you wish you did. That might also explain why Valanice is so... quiet.

Other than that, this work was really good, intriguing, ambitious, well-animated (except for the lip-synching) and a far more impressive work than the other two chapters, bugs notwithstanding. I still don't get the Easter egg in in stone circle. XD
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: KatieHal on February 19, 2011, 04:51:04 PM
Valanice needs a little rest. She's been through a lot.

Don't worry--we'll hear more out of her eventually. ;)
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: night-owl on February 19, 2011, 04:53:00 PM
Well I finished it.

All I have to say- I never felt more sympathethic towards Graham and his poor family but particularly Graham since it seems like he is surronded by secrets others keep but  then also by a play and ploy of other forces.  How much poor Graham is a pawn. He should be start putting two and two together in the next episode...hopefully. I can certainly perceive the amount of material and for how many more games it could last. As it is, I'm expecting the final episide to end with some some sort of realization from poor Graham and nothing more, though it's a kind of inconclusive perspective. But  honestly with all these characters right now as you have expanded them..there is material that could be worked on for ages on numerous other series, spin-offs even, I have been blown by the sheer though of how much had to be cut.

Bottom line is; I remeber when I was more avtive in the forums a while back before the TSL movement was forced to launch, there was talk about  ending episde leaving the player with a sense of having asccomplished everything it is possible to achieve within this scope and of psycholgical depth. This is certainly there and it's quite stirring for the imagination- and that's always a trait of good  writing. It's very much to my liking.

[spoiler] I just love the dialogues Graham has with the narrator and LOVE the pawnshop AND the action sequence - I applaud the change of pace, it made things more exciting, though a bit hard on my compouter and I didn't manage to get through completely unscathed because the cues flicked too fast, and the shadows in fact were two fast attacking from both sides but maybe thaqt's the point. I blame my lame reflexes.  I have died a few different deaths, got puzzled a bit with chess riddle and almost missed the mist obvious thing in the entire game with the silver crescent ingredient. I clearly forget about rules of adventuring -if you have a left over item from a previous quest, it remained there for a reason. Heh. [/spoiler]

Adore the dog guards.

This episode feels complete and satisfactory, it is indeed longer and much more like original KQ games in a certain sense. The only thing missing is the score board for all the tasks completed, indicated by the famialir sound.

I'm very honoured to have been able to play it, and happy. I've been stirred by the music yet again- my favourite pieces being played in Mist Isles..

For me this is how King's Quest should be, depth has been brought to light and with depth and more complexity, adventuring certainly keeps me more on the edge of my seat.



Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: newcombm7 on February 19, 2011, 10:19:59 PM
Finished a little while ago after fighting throughout the day with crashes and not being able to save the game towards the very end.  But those 2 things would be my only "complaints".  There were many times I was tempted to check the Hint forum for help [spoiler]guard dog, snap dragons, &  candle circle especially[/spoiler].  I never gave in and when I finally solved the puzzles, I was really excited.  It brought me back to the old days of playing King's Quest (playing the games in DOS) and being so thrilled about passing a really hard part of the game (and then not wanting to stop until my parents forced me off the computer :)).  

I was totally shocked when I found the Baby Suffer [spoiler]I didn't look at what I clicked on (with the eye) first, just grabbed it and opened my inventory and started laughing.  I totally expected it to be the next clue for how to find one of the ingredients.[/spoiler]

As many others have said, I really enjoyed the story line this time and I'm looking forward to seeing where this will go next.  Keep up the good work and thanks for creating such a great game!
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Arkillian on February 19, 2011, 10:25:00 PM
Looks like the secret is out. I hope that competition was finished ^^;
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: daventry on February 20, 2011, 01:21:05 AM
I finished Ep3 and it was INCREDIBLE.  :sweetheart: :sweetheart: :sweetheart:

Im Very Happy with the way the Narriator is keeping it Short with her Talking and Insults, i think we can still be good without the Guards Guards Insult.

Are we Ever gonna go to Etheria

Will we see or go to Daventry and see Conner, since i assumed for the Spells to be used after finding the Ingredients, the Children has to go to Daventry.

I hope we will get to see Alhazred or the Parents of Cassima.

I thought the Dream Lady will give Nice Dreams to Valanice, yet she is getting Nightmares

Will we see Cedric and the other Wizard again.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Arkillian on February 20, 2011, 04:53:24 AM
AHHHH! I WANNA KNOW MORE ABOUT MR MYSTERIOUS RANGER!!!

I want to know if my thoughts on who he is are with in the ball park of what he is, or if he's really just an unimportant guy with an important and cool job T.T
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Ravager on February 20, 2011, 11:33:42 AM
Finished! Best episode yet! It lasted longer than the previous one and we learn more of the story and characters. I love the arcade sequence and usually I dislike them in adventure games.

I'm starting to noticing a pattern in some puzzle. Not saying it's bad or anything, it is part of KQ gameplay after all. I call it "the 3 obstacles":

[spoiler]KQ6: to reach Beast you need disable the three traps: boiling pond, stone archer, the hedge.

TSL-Ep2: to enter chessboardland you need to get rid of the vines, get the key with a magnet, use the invisible cloak to pass the knights pieces.

TSL-Ep3: to reach the spirit tree you need to pass the banshee, the beast lord (forgot her name), the guardian.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Sslaxx on February 20, 2011, 03:35:36 PM
[spoiler]Anyone want to do a comic on the possibility of the Arch Druid being Graham's brother-in-law?[/spoiler]

[spoiler]More pertinently, if Valanice is Fand, then the potential for quite disturbing mind*u**ery with regards to Alexander and Manannan is substantially increased.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Enchantermon on February 20, 2011, 07:25:07 PM
First of all: [spoiler]MAN-an-nan? :P I mean, really, couldn't you have at least gotten Shadrack's VA to re-record the name?[/spoiler]

Anyway, I really enjoyed this episode. The crashing bug was frustrating, but putting that aside this really was the best one yet. The puzzles were very clever and most were not too obvious, and the action sequence was fun, though it had a little room for improvement (which I've already talked about here (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=10223.msg316414#msg316414)).

The art continues to be quite wonderful. Models still have a tendency to sink into each other at times, but this would have taken a long time to improve and would have probably required overhauls of the models that weren't possible. I did also notice some audio syncing issues during conversations, though that may have been my computer being slow, I don't know.

Now, as far as the plot is concerned (I'm just going to spoiler tag this whole section):
[spoiler]This is all very intriguing. So Valanice is really Manannan's daughter, but she doesn't know it because her memory has been wiped. This is interesting, because if she has no knowledge of this, why did Shadrack pop up in her room and monologue about her not telling Graham of her "dirty little secrets"? How could she tell him about that which she does not remember?
In any event, I'm more interested in how this affects the previously established canon. In KQII's manual, it's stated quite clearly that Hagatha (man, I didn't think she could get any uglier, ugh, well done) locked her in a tower because of jealousy over her beauty, but that's obviously not the case. That's a little easier to overlook though; perhaps that was the cover story that was perpetuated either by Hagatha, Manannan and Shadrack themselves or by Valanice's foster parents. What is more difficult to overlook is the fact that Manannan steals Alexander because Shadrack ordered him to. This directly contradicts the backstory of KQIII, which states that Alexander is just one in a long line of slave boys who were kidnapped and murdered before they became a threat. Furthermore, it contradicts Manannan's whole attitude towards Alexander in KQIII. I'll explain.

If Manannan kidnapped Alexander, the spawn of a valiant man like Graham and a headstrong woman like Valanice, it stands to reason that he would be relatively crafty himself. Manannan would know this, and especially so having been keeping tabs on Graham and with Valanice being his own daughter. So treating Alex like a slave, ordering him around and punishing him at the drop of a hat, while it might break some weaker-willed boys, he would have known that there was a good chance it would only cause Alex's anger to burn against him, pushing him to find some way of disposing of his slave driver (and, indeed, this is exactly what happens). It makes more sense for Manannan to steal him away as a baby and then raise him as if he were his own son, brainwashing him to become as evil as he, and slowly teaching him the magical arts as Shadrack instructed. The way KQIII unfolds, Manannan acts irresponsibly and irrationally given the new plot elements presented in TSL.

So as you can see, this is kind of a problem, unless Manannan is just an idiot, which is an impression that I certainly don't get from him. And this is completely disregarding the fact that the manual states that he had been kidnapping boys for years, though it's true that this may have just been a habit he picked up on his own and Shadrack simply used that reputation to his advantage when formulating the plan. Given the manual's timeline, it's certainly impossible that Manannan started kidnapping boys after Shadrack gave him the order to nab Alex in order to cover his tracks, so to speak.

But here is my theory as to how this affects the rest of the timeline: as a result of Manannan being a dolt, he riles up Alex to the point where Alex can't take it anymore, gets transformed into a cat (and is just lucky that nothing worse happened to him) and the entire plan is ruined, forcing Shadrack to resort to plan B, which, I assume, involved the plot of KQV: Mordack kidnapping the royal family to get Alex to reverse the spell on Manannan. When that failed due to Graham coming to the rescue, Shadrack already had Plan C in motion; he had previously instructed Mordack to kidnap Cassima so that Alhazred could murder her parents and gain control of the Green Isles. Had the plan to reverse the spell on Manannan worked, things probably would have gone pretty bad for Alex and Rosella from then on, and whatever Shadrack's plans for the twins is (which I assume will be revealed in TSL E4 and 5) would have likely taken place then. But since Mordack failed, Shadrack probably sent Cassima's image to the Magic Mirror in the same way he sent Valanice's (according to TSL) in the hopes of attracting the attention of Alex. Sure enough, Alex come traipsing into the Land of the Green Isles to rescue his beloved, and the stage is set. Shadrack has Alex right where he wants him, and just waits until the time is right.

Now, granted, this creates some inconsistencies with the plot of KQVI, mostly because Alhazred takes every available opportunity to try and murder you when you arrive. Even if Shadrack didn't purposely draw Alex to the Green Isles, Alhazred's crusade for your head on a stick still makes no sense since Alhazred was himself a Black Cloak and should know that Shadrack has plans for Alex (that no doubt depend on him being alive).

Anyway, I'm looking forward to discovering where the plot will go from here, but I'm hoping there won't be too many other gaping holes opened up. I mean, I know it's a fan project, but I would have still hoped that bringing closure to the series wouldn't have opened up any plot holes. Perhaps they'll be sewn together in a way I haven't thought of yet, though, so we'll see. :)[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: KatieHal on February 20, 2011, 07:30:59 PM
To some of your thoughts at the end there, Enchantermon:

[spoiler]Don't forget the contents of the letters that Shamir showed to Graham in Episode 2, and what Alhazred was being told in them. [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Enchantermon on February 20, 2011, 07:31:49 PM
Hmm. I'll have to replay Episode 2 (or dig through the resources); I can't remember what they said. I'll definitely look them over, though.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Cez on February 20, 2011, 07:42:36 PM
[spoiler]He's not an idiot, but he has very strong feelings mixed up in here, and he's sort of hot-headed. There's more of that that will be unveiled in Ep5 as to our take why Manannan almost tried to kill Alexander at any chance he got. And even further.

As for the taking boys part, that's still part of the plot. Alexander recognizes that Manannan has done this in ep2 (murdered the boys that came before him)--which fits Shadrack's plans even further.

Also, yes, this is fan-fiction, and we are sort of taking some liberties at reshaping some things for sure.
[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Enchantermon on February 20, 2011, 08:07:52 PM
Katie, Cez, thanks for the replies. :)
Quote from: KatieHal on February 20, 2011, 07:30:59 PM[spoiler]Don't forget the contents of the letters that Shamir showed to Graham in Episode 2, and what Alhazred was being told in them. [/spoiler]
Went back through the beginning of Episode 2.
[spoiler]Okay, so Alhazred simply did not receive word that he was to not kill Alexander until after the whole ordeal in KQVI was over. Since the whole series of events takes place in the span of only one day, that's fairly plausible.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Cez on February 20, 2011, 07:42:36 PM
[spoiler]There's more of that that will be unveiled in Ep5 as to our take why Manannan almost tried to kill Alexander at any chance he got. And even further.[/spoiler]
Okay. That's what I was hoping. I look forward to it. :)
Quote from: Cez on February 20, 2011, 07:42:36 PM
[spoiler]As for the taking boys part, that's still part of the plot. Alexander recognizes that Manannan has done this in ep2 (murdered the boys that came before him)--which fits Shadrack's plans even further.[/spoiler]
Mmkay. Again, looking forward to the explanations in later episodes.
Also again, [spoiler]I had forgotten that Alex mentions this to Manannan in Ep. 2. That's one of the problems with episodic releases; sometimes during the waiting period you forget things that happened in the previous episodes. I guess I should have gone back through the other two before formulating these ideas.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Cez on February 20, 2011, 07:42:36 PM
[spoiler]Also, yes, this is fan-fiction, and we are sort of taking some liberties at reshaping some things for sure.[/spoiler]
Right...[spoiler]and, just to clarify, I am fully prepared for the fact that I may not agree with the direction you take things. Such is the nature of fanfiction. I was just expressing my opinions on the matter and looking for some explanations. Thanks for helping me out. :)[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: tessspoon on February 20, 2011, 09:44:13 PM
I feel like my whole view of the KQ world just got turned on its head, and I'm loving it so far. I can see why some people wouldn't like where it's headed and the changes going on but for me, I love these kind of stories, having plot twists, and all the backstory that's being built to connect the games and the reasons behind the characters' actions. Maybe it helps that I've come to the series - with the exception of 7- relatively recently, I dunno.

Even if I wasn't horrible at coming up with criticism I wouldn't have much to say anyway. Loved the music, the action sequence, the puzzles, the story, everything really. Only negative I had really was the crashing but that's been covered. So, very much looking forward to the last couple episodes, and I'm very glad I decided to look into other KQ games that day back in high school. TSL's looking to be more fun and captivating than I could have imagined. Thank you! :)
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Arkillian on February 21, 2011, 12:02:25 AM
Ah- I'm SO glad people are now discussing this! I LOVED this new plot twist. Please do it right though, Phoenix. If you do, I will worship you forvever cause this has my mind BUZZING.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: waltzdancing on February 21, 2011, 12:04:49 AM
Oh, we aren't done messing with you all yet. The plot only thickens.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: TCron33 on February 21, 2011, 10:55:22 AM
Hello!

Just wanted to tell you all how much I have enjoyed playing TSL!  ;D  The Sierra games are my all time favorites, and you have done such a fantastic job on these episodes.  I haven't spent so much time playing a computer game since I was in high school.  I can't wait to see what comes next!
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: writerlove on February 22, 2011, 07:37:36 PM
[spoiler]  :shock: Manannan actually has a heart? He seemed to have a little remorse in the conversation with Shadrack. Hmmm. Y'all are totally throwing us for a loop. and now I'm looking forward to the next installment. Great storytelling!  [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: night-owl on February 23, 2011, 02:23:34 PM
Well..

[spoiler] What had Mannan actually done to Valanice?  If she;s of druidic orgin, did Manana kidnap her? Or is he her father? It's obvious that as with Alexander and the poor Graham he had already had everything planned- such a complex intrigue too... I think he;d sooner make her believe that he is her father while making her forget about druidic origins...because obiously the Kolyma parents are of no significance. And he made her forget a lot lof things, whicxh I found an excellent twist, of course. She clearly didn't want any of this though at the same time she knew what her future would be. If Mannan has a heart, for some reason it is bound to Shadrack and that reason is connected with their ploy and with Black cloaks. They needed Valanice. Which makes her another pawn. I'd just hope the druidic part became clear. [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: dark-daventry on February 23, 2011, 03:03:01 PM
Quote from: waltzdancing on February 21, 2011, 12:04:49 AM
Oh, we aren't done messing with you all yet. The plot only thickens.

How true this statement is.  :suffer:
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Sslaxx on February 23, 2011, 03:16:22 PM
Quote from: dark-daventry on February 23, 2011, 03:03:01 PM
Quote from: waltzdancing on February 21, 2011, 12:04:49 AM
Oh, we aren't done messing with you all yet. The plot only thickens.

How true this statement is.  :suffer:
I'm also bemused at the "plot holes" thread. How can you have plot holes when the whole story hasn't yet been told?
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Arkillian on February 23, 2011, 05:59:09 PM
Quote from: Sslaxx on February 23, 2011, 03:16:22 PM
Quote from: dark-daventry on February 23, 2011, 03:03:01 PM
Quote from: waltzdancing on February 21, 2011, 12:04:49 AM
Oh, we aren't done messing with you all yet. The plot only thickens.

How true this statement is.  :suffer:
I'm also bemused at the "plot holes" thread. How can you have plot holes when the whole story hasn't yet been told?

This is what I said :/ It's not a hole till it's left unexplained.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: psullivan32 on February 24, 2011, 01:28:46 AM
Excellent work! Thanks for a super-enjoyable game--I'm looking forward to episode 4!
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Aurelind on February 25, 2011, 10:10:09 AM
First off, this was an awesome episode!  ;D I just finished it last night, and it was very much worth the wait.  Great puzzles, great plot revelations, great new locations and music, all wrapped up in a package big enough to be satisfying but small enough to leave me wanting more.  The team has done some excellent work here, and has every right to be proud.

Now, as far as constructive criticism...

The frequent crashing of the game was most vexing, but I see that's already being addressed.

As much as I love the music, there are some scenes where it overpowers the dialogue to the point of making it difficult to follow without the subtitles on.  The scene where Graham [spoiler]releases the butterfly in front of the Morrigan[/spoiler] is a prime example of that.  I understand that it may be too late to go back and adjust levels for things like that, but at least it's something to look out for in future episodes.

In a similar vein, in the final cutscene, I noticed that [spoiler]Shadrack pronounces the name "MAN-ah-nan" when as far as I can remember, everyone else in this and previous games says it "Mah-NAN-an."  Is Shadrack not a native English/Daventrean speaker, perhaps?  Or maybe he just enjoys intentionally pronouncing his subordinate's name wrong to peeve him off? ;) [/spoiler] Either way, this is very minor, but it stuck out at me.

On the action/arcade sequence, I'm divided.  I found it extremely frustrating.  I'm terrible at these sorts of games, and would never choose to play one myself.  In order to get through this sequence, I had to fail dozens of times until I could learn the sequence of actions by rote and anticipate them... and every time I thought the arcade part was over, a fresh new twitch-torment awaited me, and then great indeed was my invective, and not fit for the ears of children.  :P  The music and visuals here were incredible, but I couldn't enjoy them because I was white-knuckling the mouse the whole way.  Yes, the story at this point warrants tension, and this certainly helps build it, but one of the things I love about the adventure game genre is that it's primarily a cerebral exercise, and I don't feel like I should need catlike reflexes to solve one.  Sure, there were shocks and time-sensitive puzzles in previous KQs, but you could pop your mouse up to the interface bar to pause for an "Oh, fewmets!  :o " break if you needed it.  I have a housebound friend who enjoys puzzle and adventure games, and I'd like to be able to share this one with her, but with her mobility issues there's simply no way she'll ever beat this sequence herself.  Would it be at all possible to institute some kind of "mercy mode" if the player fails a particular action say, five times in a row?  I understand why you created this sequence, and it has many good points to commend it, but it's not what people expect in an adventure game, and it may drive the less-physically-adept among us away from a game we'd otherwise enjoy and excel at.

Again, overall this was a great episode, with just those few (mostly minor issues).  Thanks for all your work on this game.  We probably can't say that enough.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: elobello on February 26, 2011, 05:58:44 AM
absolutely stunning work.

loved the way the story moved forward

Loved the graphics and such

Just a touch too much cut-scene chitchat in the beginning of the episode.

You guys should be very proud of yourselves.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Nilan8888 on February 26, 2011, 09:18:23 PM
Enchantermon, RE: Alexander & Mannanan:

[spoiler]It might be that Mannanan had conflicted thoughts on what to do with Alexander, and had more than an inkling on what teaching Alexander the Dark Arts would mean, and what Shadrack's intentions were.

IF, for instance, Shadrack intends a plan for Alexander that would be a fate worse than death, and Mannanan suspects this, it could be that Mannanan kept putting off everything with Alex until his 18th birthday. And as time went on he was not certain to go through with the plan or kill Alexander as a sort of mercy.[/spoiler]

Alexander ticking Mannanan off in KQIII could then easily tip the scales as his birthday approaches. He'd decide to kill him then and there, justifying it as a mercy for the boy anyway since if he were to let him live, [spoiler]he would be forced to give him over to Shadrack's plan.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: fred on February 27, 2011, 11:02:09 AM
Hi over there !
Just started playing EP3 and kids and I just wanted to say : MARVELLOUS !   :suffer:  ;D
worth the waiting !
(kids love the French guard dog)

(works very well with wine under fedora13 now)
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Enchantermon on February 27, 2011, 09:42:13 PM
Quote from: Nilan8888 on February 26, 2011, 09:18:23 PM
Enchantermon, RE: Alexander & Mannanan:

[spoiler]It might be that Mannanan had conflicted thoughts on what to do with Alexander, and had more than an inkling on what teaching Alexander the Dark Arts would mean, and what Shadrack's intentions were.

IF, for instance, Shadrack intends a plan for Alexander that would be a fate worse than death, and Mannanan suspects this, it could be that Mannanan kept putting off everything with Alex until his 18th birthday. And as time went on he was not certain to go through with the plan or kill Alexander as a sort of mercy.[/spoiler]

Alexander ticking Mannanan off in KQIII could then easily tip the scales as his birthday approaches. He'd decide to kill him then and there, justifying it as a mercy for the boy anyway since if he were to let him live, [spoiler]he would be forced to give him over to Shadrack's plan.[/spoiler]
Perhaps, but [spoiler]he certainly doesn't seem to have any conflicting emotions when taking him out in KQIII. Anyway, like I said, I'm looking forward to the official explanation; there's probably a good reason based on facts we don't know yet.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: colin on March 03, 2011, 03:42:20 PM
Just to say that I loved Episode 3. The puzzles were excellent   although the chessboard puzzle did kinda of drive me crazy. I continue to enjoy the humour in the game
[spoiler]like the Roger Wilco/earlier kq easter egg in the pawn shop.[/spoiler]
And unlike some are actually enjoying the story. From a technical standpoint I obviously didn't have as many problems as others. I did have an an occasional crash yes but that was all I really had.
Overall definitely the best episode so far.  :thumbsup: 10/10
Oh and the music just gets better and better. Its just phenomenal especially the arcade and chase scenes really gets
your heart thumping.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: SilverBall10 on March 07, 2011, 06:01:23 AM
I enjoyed episode 3 very much!
I hope episodes 4 and 5 will be like episode 3 or better  ;D
Thank you Phoenix Online!!!!! 

:iluvu:



(Posted on: March 05, 2011, 10:26:32 PM)


I forgot to say, I wonder what will happen in episode 4, no clues from episode 3... [spoiler]apart from the Beauty and the Beast preview scene after completing the episode[/spoiler]
;D
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Damar on March 09, 2011, 01:38:34 PM
Over all I liked the episode.  The added length was definitely an improvement, though I really still dislike the episodic release.  Like it was mentioned before, it makes it easier to forget some of the information that was offered before, and it completely destroys the timing and flow of the game.  But not much that can be done about that.

I liked the increase in puzzles.  I was also a fan of Lieutenant Shorty.  The line "There are boards with nails in them!  NAILS!"  Made me laugh.  Although the other unintentional lines made me laugh more, such as Graham asking Cassima about his son...as a man.  So many dirty one liners went through my head.  I also laughed at Graham's unintentionally racist thought that Shorty and Saladin are related because they're both collies.  And of course I cracked up at Graham's indignation at Shamir for suggesting that the family may be related to the Silver Cloaks because his family has never shown any magical ability.  I half expected him to add, "Well except for when Alexander mastered Manannan's spells in order to escape, turn the wizard into a cat, and kill the three headed dragon.  And of course he did use magic spells to save Cassima.  And come to think of it I guess I did learn magic spells in record time and school Mordack in a magic wand duel.  And I guess I do use magical treasures every freaking day!  But other than that...no...no magical abilities at all.  How dare you even suggest it!"

Over all my criticisms remain the same.  I feel like the Green Isles should be more expansive.  I don't like that you just plain can't get the the Isle of the Beast.  It might sound silly, but even if you could just go there and find the gates to the castle locked, thereby rendering the entire trip there pointless, that would still go a long ways to making the game feel more expansive even though the reality would be that it isn't.  Being told flat out that you just can't go somewhere when they're no reason you can't is kind of infuriating in a game that rewards exploration.

Even though I've defended it in the past, this episode the long narrations did get to me a bit.  In particular the generic response in the Pawn Shop.  It takes 3-4 clicks to cycle through it, and when you're dealing with a room that has a ton of stuff to look at, some of which is important, some of which has a funny response, and a lot of which just gives you that generic response, that gets old really fast.  Likewise, the bowl egg in the shop went a bit too far.  And really I hesitate to call it an egg.  If the bowls were hidden somewhere, ok, but they were out in the middle of the floor and a completely different color scheme than anything else.  I mean, the ocean egg from episode 2 at least was something that someone would have to think to do.  I defy you to find one person who wouldn't immediately click the eye icon on those bright blue bowls.  And if you do show me that person, then I will show you the crappiest adventure game player in the history of computer gaming.  Seriously, how are you not going to look at that?  And in response you get a very long dialogue.  In theory I have no problem with it, but it should have been a bit more hidden if you wanted it to be an egg, or shorter if you just wanted it to be a funny response.

Personally, like I said in another thread somewhere, I realize that this issue comes from a deep appreciation of the games and wanting to put in as much information as possible.  And like I said before, if this were a written medium it would be fine.  But it's not.  So you get sequences like the sour grapes story last episode or the explanation of how Alexander was named in this episode.  In a verbal, active medium like a game, it just doesn't translate.  In the example of Alexander it doesn't work because 1.) I don't know the story that the narrator is talking about, 2.) I will never read the story that the narrator is talking about, 3.) The story the narrator is talking about doesn't exist, and 4.) I'm playing a game and all I did was click the eye icon on the character that started this whole quest.  When all these are taken into account, the explanation becomes very out of context, hollow, and time consuming.  Kind of like how someone starts talking passionately about something that you don't understand and have no context for.  Even if they don't go on for long, the time spent talking about it feels interminable because you're just not interested or able to understand it.  Same basic concept.  And I realize that, as the writer, it would hurt to cut those lines because they're meaningful for you and add depth to these characters you love and have expanded upon, but ultimately it doesn't translate for us, the viewer.

Another issue would be the bugs.  Those really got annoying.  I know that they're being worked out and I'm sure part of the episode 4 download will be the patch to fix everything.  Still, they were wicked annoying and there were times that the game crashed and I just decided not to go back to the game for a while.

I'm a huge fan of the music so I feel obligated to post one criticism there.  I didn't like the electric guitars during the arcade sequence.  In my opinion, the music should stay with a medieval inspiration.  And I know what people will say: "What about Girl in the Tower?  That was contemporary and had electric guitars."  And to that I say, I hated Girl in the Tower.  The rest of the music in TSL was fine (though it did have a tendency to drown out the dialogue at times).  Actually, the rest of the music in TSL was great.  Even the arcade music was fine...right up until the guitars started.  But I guess that's just a personal preference.

I agree with some of the other people who are a bit confused about Manannan's actual motivations versus what we knew from King's Quest III as well as the backstory in the game manuals.  I know there will be an explanation, but when it comes down to it, I think it will simply be accepting this as fan fiction and an interpretation of how things resolve.  In a lot of ways it's a retcon, even though you can argue that Manannan never actually killed Alex, since you beat the game and so on so they're not technically retconning anything.  Still, once you accept that, and I personally have, it's easier to accept.  I'm interested to see how everything turns out.

In the end, as before, none of these things ruined the game for me.  Over all it was very enjoyable.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: kindofdoon on March 09, 2011, 04:29:42 PM
Quote from: Damar on March 09, 2011, 01:38:34 PM
I'm a huge fan of the music so I feel obligated to post one criticism there.  I didn't like the electric guitars during the arcade sequence.  In my opinion, the music should stay with a medieval inspiration.

Hm, there is definitely guitar in Episode 1 (when walking around in the castle) and maybe Episode 2 as well.

Edit: never mind, that's acoustic guitar.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Arkillian on March 09, 2011, 04:33:09 PM
I was particularly a fan of the electric guitar music. It was like... old school epic music from the 80s. IF you weren't into movies from then I could see why it wouldn't interest you, but for an epic fantasy fan, they were perfect.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Morwen on March 24, 2011, 02:08:47 PM
Just thought I would say that I thought this episode was amazing. The storyline seems like it is starting to piece together and some of the puzzles were really challenging/[spoiler]I personally thought the candle puzzle and the chessboard ones took the longest because I didn't look at the slab to realize it is both red and white lol[/spoiler] But all in all it was really well done and a lot of fun to play!
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: dark-daventry on March 24, 2011, 02:17:54 PM
Quote from: Morwen on March 24, 2011, 02:08:47 PM
Just thought I would say that I thought this episode was amazing. The storyline seems like it is starting to piece together and some of the puzzles were really challenging/[spoiler]I personally thought the candle puzzle and the chessboard ones took the longest because I didn't look at the slab to realize it is both red and white lol[/spoiler] But all in all it was really well done and a lot of fun to play!

Thanks! We're proud of episode 3, and I think, from what I've seen so far, that episode 4 is just going to get better!
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: darthkiwi on April 23, 2011, 08:26:37 AM
Okay, I finally finished Episode 3 and would like to post my criticisms. WARNING: This post contains many many many spoilers.

VOICE-ACTING:

This was a mixed bag but I don't think anyone can fault the game for this, since POS didn't have any money for voice-actors. Graham and Shadrack were, as always, excellent; although Shadrack's evilness can be a little over the top sometimes, I think he works fantastically overall and is able to make lines which might be a little bland have a lot more character. I think young Valanice's voice actor did a great job with the flashback scenes, Manannan was fantastic, and generally all the major characters were extremely well done.

I do have one complaint: the bird-guardian had a really, really silly voice. I'm terribly, terribly sorry to put down whoever did that voice, but I couldn't listen to it without laughing, which seemed inconsistent with that character.

DIALOGUE AND WRITING:

Sometimes good, but often overwritten. The worst example is probably the pawn shop description, which is in four lines:

"Very few times in his life has Graham seen such a collection of odds and ends in one place.
Much of it seems like useless junk, he has to admit, but one or two items catch Graham's discerning eye.
When you've been adventuring as long as he has, you learn the value of seemingly everyday items.
This store could be a boon to Graham in his search."

I know this is an in-joke about adventure games, but it's unusually long and could be cut down immensely. The description could easily be cut down to line 1, 2 or 4 alone, and the other lines discarded. Long phrases could be replaced with shorter phrases: "Very few times in his life has Graham seen such a collection of odds and ends in one place" could be shortened to "Graham has never seen so many odds and ends". "He has to admit", in line two, could be omitted completely; "discerning" could also go. I know that each of these cuts loses something from the line, but it is all information which the player already knows and does not need to have reiterated, especially in an incidental description. These four lines could be replaced with something like "Graham is amazed by the odds and ends piled up in this shop" at very little cost, and the player would get past the line much quicker and find themselves back in the game much faster, and able to play again.

There are some very good sequences: I particularly liked the sequences in the pawn shop where Graham recounts past games to the shopkeeper. The writing was short, allowing us to relive old memories without being cumbersome. The use of the 3D camera also made the scene much more dynamic.

I also liked the sequence where Valanice is taken to the tower, and the conversation between Manannan and Shadrack: they are fast, make a big impact and deliver the scenes' content in an effective way. Even here, though, there are a few lines which made me raise my eyebrows: "Let's live the life the society took from us!" seems overly verbose for a girl about to be locked up, and could probably be cut since the player will soon realise (if they haven't already) what terrible sacrifices the society asks its members to make.

I'd like to compare this episode with another adventure I started recently: The Curse of Monkey Island. One scene struck me as particularly well-written: a lemonade stand, with a sign saying "Lemonade", a sign saying "5c", a mug and the boy selling lemonade. When you look at the sign saying "Lemonade", Guybrush simply says "Lemonade!" When you look at the "5c" sign, he says "five cents". Looking at the mug yields "It's a mug for the lemonade!" Looking at the boy yields a slightly longer description. This means that, even if the player examines all hotspots in the scene, they learn what is important and what is not in the space of about ten seconds. They don't feel overwhelmed, because although there are a lot of hotspots they each have a short description, and they quickly and efficiently grasp the mechanics of the situation. I feel as though, when playing TSL, each of those hotspots would yield a thoughtful but unnecessary narration, which would detract from the player's interaction with the game.

Also, the game tries to be several things at once. Some of the narrations are brooding and melancholy, some are enthusiastic and some are in-jokes or are designed to be humourous. Variety is a often good thing, but it seems very strange to be playing a game where the narrator can describe Graham as in the grip of despair in one scene, and then make a joke about having lost the script or Graham being lazy or even (in one particulalry long sequence) have an extended argument with Graham which causes him to leave the game in disgust since he's underappreciated. I understand that the game has to walk a tightrope between nostalgia (and easter eggs) and new ideas (and seriousness) but the tone does feel inconsistent.

PUZZLE DIRECTION, GOALS AND LOGIC:

I thought this was also a little disappointing. I liked the number of puzzles and I liked the difficulty of the puzzles, but I thought that the way they were presented was lacking.

At the beginning of the episode we are given four items to find: Alexander's strength, Rosella's voice, a silver moon and a pinch of lively shaken salt. Some people have apparently been annoyed at how these ingredients are unrelated, but I wasn't bothered by that. After all, this is a macguffin quest, and ingredients sometimes seem unrelated to their eventual product.

What I had trouble swallowing was the way in which we get these items. We know that we need these items but we don't know where they are or how to get them. As a result, we have two goals: 1) Find the items (which we don't know how to do) and 2) Explore and solve any puzzles we can, regardless of whether they seem relevant to the fetch-quest.

To a certain extent this is fine, and is what most adventure games consist of. The puzzles which we needed to solve in order to get the salt were very sensible and I felt rewarded for clear thinking when I solved them: salt is in seawater, a living cup would probably shake it up (and there's also the pun in "lively shaken") and the cup will need to be heated on a low-intensity flame to boil off the water but not kill the cup.

The other puzzles were more problematic, though. I had no idea how I was to get Rosella's voice or Alexander's strength, and it was unclear how these nebulous objects could be stored. I was also unsure how to get the silver moon mould so just kept an eye out for one. The upshot of this was that I had no idea how to acquire these three items, so blundered through the islands solving random puzzles with no idea why I was solving them. I chased after a shell because a giant chequer had it, and even asked hole-in-the-wall to help me get it even though I had no idea why I wanted it. I acquired a net, saved a butterfly, manufactured a crystal tear for web-be-gone and got the web off the butterfly's wings, only to think "Well, that was interesting, but what on earth do I do with this butterfly now I have it?" I had no idea why the druidess's candle can be picked up by Graham - fair enough, I assume it will be revealed in good time - but I had no idea why I was supposed to solve the zodiac/standing stones puzzle: at first I tried to solve it simply because it was there.

In all, then, the episode did not present me with goals which I then strived for, but gave me a nebulous goal and then set me loose in a confusing maze with no idea why any of it mattered.

I'd like to compare to Monkey Island again, just to show you how I think goal-presentation could be handled. At the beginning of the game, Guybrush accidentally curses his girlfriend and turns her into a gold statue. Obviously, this is bad, so the player knows they have to find some way to lift the curse. They will naturally explore the world until they find some indication of how to lift this curse, which dovetails well with the gameplay, since this is the exploration phase of the game. Eventually they will find a voodoo wise woman who tells them that they need to find an item on Blood Island to lift the curse. To get to Blood Island, we are told, we will need a map to guide us there, a ship in which to sail and a crew who can man the ship. Guybrush then sums this shopping list up with: "Map, ship, crew. Got it!"

This splits the main quest - to lift the curse - into three subquests: get a map, a ship, and a crew. By exploring the world, Guybrush will discover that the local actors have been to Blood Island as they have a "Blood Island" sticker on their travelling trunk; even if he misses this clue, he will find it out through questioning the lead actor. This then gives him an impetus to follow this lead until he has a map. There is a ship anchored in a local bay; although it's not obvious how he can get hold of it, it seems reasonable to assume that he could commandeer this ship, pointing him in that direction. While exploring the town, Guybrush will find three pirates who he can ask about joining a crew; they will express interest, and will join him if he passes certain tests. One will join Guybrush if he can best him in a duel; one will join him if he proves he's a pirate by showing him some treasure; one will join if he can best him in a show of strength. Each of these three strands then lead to three further subquests - to win the duel, find some gold and win the show of strength - so everything ties up neatly. Throughout this first section of the game - and most of the rest of the game - the player can see their goal, can see how to get to it, and knows which puzzles need to be solved to get there. Unfortunately, this was not my experience of TSL. Whereas playing CoMI felt like building a ladder, step by step, to get something which was just out of reach, playing TSL felt like digging random holes in the sand until I struck gold.

The logic of the puzzles was also not obvious to me. I'm aware that nightshade can work to attract supernatural things, since it attracted Nightmare in KQ6 and was used to attract Persephone in the story in the bookshop, but it seems a strange leap of logic to say it can not only attract a voice (which is not supernatural) and then store it. The Samson and Delilah story also seems irrelevant to Alexander, since Samson was given supernatural strength by God which was linked to the length of his hair; Alexander was given no such gift. It is also odd that enchanting the nightshade and shears with various elements should make them behave the way they do; there is nothing particularly relevant about Earth and Fire, the elements used to enchant the shears so that they capture Alexander's strength. I don't see why lighting candles in a zodiac circle with blue flame should cause those signs to appear on the standing stones, and I don't see why those signs should enchant items with those elements - although such a link could have been made when talking to the archdruid, if he had said something about the power of elements, the power of the stars and the power of the standing stones. It is unclear why the pawn shop owner would want a crystal tear in exchange for web-be-gone; surely money would make more sense, unless web-be-gone is unusually valuable, so that the shopkeep would only be willing to trade it with something equally unusual.

The result of all this was that I felt I was blundering through a series of totally arbitrary puzzles solely in order to reach more arbitrary puzzles, rather than playing through a coherent and relateable game world.

ARCADE SEQUENCES:

Overall I thought these were well done. The chess board sequence established an initial problem, and the solution was fairly obvious but required thought to execute. It also meant that we had to use both sides of the tile, which made the player look at it in a new light and use it accordingly.

However, there was one small problem with the puzzle: timing. The chess pieces will throw the shell 1) if graham touches them or 2) if a certain amount of time has expired. This meant that, even if the player has figured out which tiles to alter, they will still have to act quickly to complete the puzzle, and there were many times when I placed the tile just as the relevant piece moved , which completely ruined the set-up and forced me to either go through the whole sequence from the beginning or reload a carefully timed save, taking up time. If this timing element had been removed completely then the puzzle would have been an engaging intellectual challenge with just the right amount of trial and error. With the timing in place it is still all that - but it is also unnecessarily frustrating, since players who have figured out precisely what to do are still punished, essentially for doing nothing wrong.

The horse sequence worked well because it was exciting and allowed for a fast-paced diversion; the flexibility of the quick-time event system meant that Graham could perform any dangerous or acrobatic move with a click of the mouse. I can't help wondering, though, whether the sequence would have been more satisfying if it had been more procedural. But, I can't honestly criticise it since I did enjoy it immensely and think it added excitement and backstory to the game at an ideal point.

So, those are my criticisms of the game. I understand that the remaining episodes have already been written and the lines already recorded, so substantial changes are impossible, but I hope that POS can at least bear some of these suggestions in mind for future games. I did enjoy episode 3, but all of these things (most of which are straightforward game-design problems) marred the experience.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Enchantermon on April 23, 2011, 08:56:21 AM
As far as getting the strength and voice are concerned, I stand by what I said before: the books in the bookstore give you very clear indications of what needs to be done to obtain both. Once you read the stories, you apply them to your situation.

I actually really liked the moon puzzle too; I thought it was rather clever.

Moving Fan's candle was presented in the druid's dialog. I don't remember if he said anything about his candles, but between the Zodiac signs on the floor, the books in the bookstore mentioning the elements and the Four Winds article with the Zodiac signs and their associated elements, it seems pretty obvious to try it, at least it did to me.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: darthkiwi on April 23, 2011, 09:34:42 AM
QuoteAs far as getting the strength and voice are concerned, I stand by what I said before: the books in the bookstore give you very clear indications of what needs to be done to obtain both. Once you read the stories, you apply them to your situation.

Looking back on the nightshade book, it does suggest that nightshade can "take one's breath away", so I suppose that seems reasonable. The Samson and Delilah book also equates hair with strength, and since both books contain instructions for enchanting objects the puzzles are not actually difficult. I didn't actually have much difficulty with the puzzles.

But my criticism is more with the logic of the puzzles themselves. There's a zodiac circle in the druid's house, the four winds link the zodiac signs to the elements, the elements are linked with the items in the stories by the books - but I don't feel like that chain of reasoning actually works. I didn't follow the links in the chain because they were logical, but because they were just sort of presented to me, and I just did what I was told. My complaint with these puzzles is not that they're hard, but that they don't really hold water. Ideally, when the player reads the books in the bookshop and is told what to do, the solution should feel natural. I just felt that the links in the puzzle's reasoning were random, so that when I finished the puzzle, instead of a feeling of satisfaction at being clever enough to solve it, I just felt relief that the puzzle was out of the way.

Also, I apologise for the massive wall of text in my last post and I completely understand if people don't want to read that much text, but I felt that these things had to be said: if these problems were in a commercial game then I think a reviewer would pick up on them, and since POS is moving into commercial games it seems like a good idea to criticise anything now so that hopefully their future games will be even better and will do well in the eyes of more critical reviewers.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Enchantermon on April 23, 2011, 09:48:22 AM
I'm not sure what about the puzzles isn't logical. Take the shears. You need to enchant them with the power of Fire and Earth as the book says. The Four Winds mentions Fire and Earth in conjunction with the Zodiac symbols. The only other place the Zodiac symbols are apparent are in the Druid's hut. Each symbol has a candle next to it. When you light one candle, you're given a narrative clue that something has changed elsewhere (I forget the exact wording). The natural place to check first is the standing stones. You see that they're lit up, and if you examine the center, I believe you even get a clue about a lot of energy being focused in the fire pit. Seeing that, wouldn't it make sense to try lighting up the symbols that are associated with Fire and Earth and place the shears in the pool of focused energy?

I think that's a very logical chain of reasoning.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Damar on April 23, 2011, 12:22:00 PM
I agree with the spirit of those criticisms, though personally I found the voice and hair puzzle pretty intuitive.  I remembered that nightshade could take someone's breath away, so that drew me to Rosella to get her voice.  And when I realized I needed a place to store it, the shell made sense.  The same with Alexander's hair.

I think some of the other puzzles were a bit scatter shot though, in the spirit of what darthkiwi was saying.  The appearance of the shears, for example, bothered me.  They just fall out of the sky.  To me that was overly convenient and an easy out to give us what we needed.  And yes, before anyone mentions it, I know that the Four Winds article mentions why shears would be falling from the sky.  It's still overly convenient and seems more like a hasty explanation for why the game just decided to give us shears.  Plus, the shears are just coming down now?  Did they orbit the Earth a couple times first?  It's on a par with King's Quest VII when that black cloak just appears out of nowhere in the graveyard.  It's convenience run amok.  Plus, those shears could have been put anywhere just as easily to make more sense.  Just put them on the table in the garden.  That makes a vague amount of sense.  Or allow us to visit the Isle of the Beast and have them laying in the rose garden.  That makes sense too.  They're shears, they belong in a garden.  Just having them fall out of the sky when we need them is far too convenient and lazy writing.  Why explore in logical places for an item you need?  You've been running around too much already.  Let me just have them fall out of the sky for you.

Likewise, yeah, I agree with the crystal tear for the web-b-gone.  First off, the creation of web-b-gone did seem a bit convenient since we have that butterfly, but whatever.  But then the pawn shoppe owner won't even take money for it?  No it has to be a crystal tear.  And the final punchline there?  We end up cheating him!  We didn't give him a crystal tear!  We gave him an ice tear and ran off with his web-b-gone before it melts on him!

So I do agree with all those points, though I disagree that the two ingredients weren't intuitive.  The candle circle was hard for me, but that's more because I don't like having background reading to do prior to a puzzle.  I like to try and figure them out on my own.  This was evidenced by the fact that I kept dying because I used the candle colors to symbolize the elements (brown for earth, blue for water, white for air, red for fire, and green for life.  Tell me that's not completely intuitive!  Oh how I kept dying...)  Still over all, I found them intuitive.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: darthkiwi on April 23, 2011, 12:59:19 PM
Now that I think about it, I kind of agree with the shears thing. That did seem a bit random, and I felt that, since a lot of the puzzles felt a bit arbitrary, less randomness would have been good.

Re. the zodiac puzzle, I'm probably not the best judge of it since I actually played the game in two halves since there was a period in between where I was unable to play. So by the time I got to the zodiac puzzle I'd forgotten the details from the books and tried messing around with different combinations of elements. But I still don't see why fire and earth should be associated with cutting, hair or strength - it just seems abitrary, as though the designers wanted another enchantment puzzle and picked the two leftover elements.

It's true that reading the book gives me the solution right off the bat, and that, if you read the zodiac pages from the four winds and the book, the solution becomes obvious. But that's not a logical chain of reasoning: that's just following arbitrary instructions. You might get to the right solution, but you have no idea why that was the right solution, which makes the puzzle kind of artificial. I just felt like this was the kind of puzzle that episode 3 tended to give me: not a series of puzzles which led meaningfully to the final solutions, but a series of disconnected puzzles which led me to the next step but didn't really fit into the context of our overall goals or the overarching story.

I mean, I don't think that's disastrous for the episode. I'm playing TSL for the story, rather than the puzzling experience. But I still think that this slightly random approach to puzzle design mars the game as a whole.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Enchantermon on April 23, 2011, 01:13:06 PM
I agree with the shears; even though the Four Winds article practically said outright that you would end up getting a hold of them, falling out of the sky at that point was really weird, especially considering how long they would have been up in the sky first.
Quote from: darthkiwi on April 23, 2011, 12:59:19 PMBut I still don't see why fire and earth should be associated with cutting, hair or strength - it just seems abitrary, as though the designers wanted another enchantment puzzle and picked the two leftover elements.
Now that I'll agree with; it does seem rather arbitrary. But that's not really a fault with the logic of the puzzle. If you had to figure out on your own that Fire and Earth were associated with strength and hair and all, then it would be a poorly-designed puzzle, but as it is, the link between them is provided for you, contrived though it may be. The thing is, this didn't bother me that much (I did notice that it was a little odd, but I didn't dwell on it) because it's presented in a way that suggests there's a history behind the association that we are not aware of (and that we don't need to be aware of). In any case, the book provides you with something that is a fact in the fictional universe because we can't use the rules of the real universe to deduce it. Still a little weird, but I think it was designed in such a way as to minimize confusion, which, for some, it did.
Quote from: darthkiwi on April 23, 2011, 12:59:19 PMIt's true that reading the book gives me the solution right off the bat, and that, if you read the zodiac pages from the four winds and the book, the solution becomes obvious. But that's not a logical chain of reasoning: that's just following arbitrary instructions. You might get to the right solution, but you have no idea why that was the right solution, which makes the puzzle kind of artificial.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm simply not following you on how the clues are not connected. What I wrote in my last post is, to me, a very logical progression from one clue to the next, showing the connections that I found between everything when I played.* It may be that we just think completely differently, and that's not something we're going to be able to reconcile.

*The exception to this is the Four Winds. I remembered the horoscope in it after the fact because I forgot to re-read it when Episode 3 came out. Instead, when I re-read the books, I remembered that the Zodiac were often associated with the elements and the arcane, so I Googled them. However, my point still stands. I know how I think, and if I had re-read the Four Winds I know I would have seen the connection.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: KatieHal on April 23, 2011, 03:16:34 PM
I don't think you guys are quite picking up on why the shears show up where they do and in what fashion. Don't forget that other strange things have happened around the Green Isles already--and the article about the opening ceremony where the shears initially got thrown into the air and landed, scratching a Winged One, happened months and months in the past.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Enchantermon on April 23, 2011, 03:23:13 PM
Oh, so they already landed from that. Then yes, we must have missed something.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: KatieHal on April 23, 2011, 03:26:19 PM
Yeah--they haven't been hovering around in the stratosphere all this time. ;)

The 'why' of it will become more clear in Episode 4.

Amusingly, the web-b-gone started off as a random item on the back shelves, where we put all the items that would've been really useful back in the old KQ games as a fun sort of joke. But then we were beefing up the butterfly puzzle and realized we already had a line for the perfect item to use there, so made the web-b-gone a real item to go with the puzzle. :)
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Cez on April 25, 2011, 06:08:53 PM
I simply don't see the correlation with puzzles being "illogical" in matter. It seems random to have to apply earth and fire to a shears to be able to take the strength of a man? If that doesn't hold water for you, then I guess having Salt as an ingredient to a spell that will take you to the dreamworld must be even more dumbfounding :)

Elements and zodiac become extremely important in this game in the upcoming episodes. Without wanting to sound sexist, earth and fire sounded to me more like "male-ish" elements, while air and water seemed more appropriate for the female gender.

But I digress, the point is that I'm not sure how we should be even discussing this to start with. You are talking about the most whimsical series there ever was, where "illogical" is key (how does cheese help a wand? And there was no clue whatsoever for that one!). But, it's difficult to give you a better answer than "we are in a magical world" Whether it seems illogical to you, it makes sense for the characters that live in this world, and if the clues are provided, like Enchartermon said, then you are just learning another piece of the world that is presented to you. Yes, to answer your question, we did add the zodiac magic to it recently --originally, it was just use the shears on Alexander, but we wanted to make it more challenging in general.

And that's the beauty of a game like this from a design standpoint. You have any idea how hard it is to come up with good puzzles for Corridor 9? I have to play by the rules of our world, where things make sense to us. In this game world, I can bend the rules through magic and present them to you. Whether they make sense or not, as long as the clues are there, that other part I believe becomes irreverent. But I may be wrong, I don't know.

On the other thing you spoke about, yes, Monkey Island, and all LucasArts and Telltale games are all very directing and very broken into the 3 goals puzzles, I know, I've worked for Telltale. But Sierra games aren't like that. In Sierra games, you are presented with a vast world with puzzles that you may solve without knowing why you are solving them for, and that's something we definitely wanted to keep. We did try it the other way around, for example, you could not try the shears on Alexander until you've read the book. Or we could have played the seashell only after you've learned somehow you needed to store the voice, but that becomes extremely limiting to the player, and that's one thing we wanted to keep from the legacy of Sierra. We ended up removing all the prerequirements and let the player get lost in the world. I can understand, however, that if you are playing a game for the story, you'd prefer a more linear structure where things fall into place in a story sort of way, but we wanted to open the vast world to the player and have them play in it. That comes at that cost, as opposed to the more structured Episode 2, for example, which had less exploration.



Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Big C from Cauney island on April 26, 2011, 07:23:57 PM
The puzzles in the original Kings quest 2 made no sense. Just my input.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: snabbott on April 26, 2011, 08:22:41 PM
What? You don't go around throwing bridles at snakes in order to get magic sugar cubes? :P
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Enchantermon on April 27, 2011, 08:00:05 AM
Doesn't everybody? It's only 10 am and I've already thrown three today!
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: wilco64256 on April 27, 2011, 11:05:06 AM
I tossed one this morning but missed and I had to run to work so I didn't have another chance yet.  I'll get back to it later tonight when I get home.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: KatieHal on April 27, 2011, 11:57:49 AM
Personally, I've adapted the custard pie-yeti trick to clear traffic out of my way in the morning.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Haids1987 on April 27, 2011, 12:19:10 PM
With all the yetis that have been spotted lurking in the forests around here, I should keep more custard pies on hand...:pokerface:
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Cez on April 27, 2011, 12:37:17 PM
Damn snakes and briddles. Had to drink bitter coffee this morning because I missed!
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: snabbott on April 27, 2011, 12:57:03 PM
Quote from: Cez on April 27, 2011, 12:37:17 PM
Damn snakes and briddles. Had to drink bitter coffee this morning because I missed!
Are you sure it wasn't Bittar coffee? :P (Yes, I know - bad joke. I'm sure you've only heard that a million times.)

(Posted on: April 27, 2011, 01:55:36 PM)


Oh, and you know modly cheese always comes in handy for charging your cell phone!
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: wilco64256 on April 27, 2011, 03:16:03 PM
Modly cheese...  It's what mods eat with their crackers.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Haids1987 on April 27, 2011, 05:29:03 PM
Quote from: snabbott on April 27, 2011, 12:57:03 PM
Oh, and you know modly cheese always comes in handy for charging your cell phone!
See, something didn't look right to me there but I couldn't figure it out.  I read the sentence, looked at the word for a good long time, and still couldn't figure out what was wrong with it.  It took Weldon's comment for me to get it. :P
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: snabbott on April 27, 2011, 06:19:08 PM
Quote from: Haids1987 on April 27, 2011, 05:29:03 PM
Quote from: snabbott on April 27, 2011, 12:57:03 PM
Oh, and you know modly cheese always comes in handy for charging your cell phone!
See, something didn't look right to me there but I couldn't figure it out.  I read the sentence, looked at the word for a good long time, and still couldn't figure out what was wrong with it.  It took Weldon's comment for me to get it. :P
Oops! ;]
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: kindofdoon on April 27, 2011, 06:50:11 PM
Quote from: snabbott on April 27, 2011, 12:57:03 PM
Quote from: Cez on April 27, 2011, 12:37:17 PM
Had to drink bitter coffee this morning because I missed!
Are you sure it wasn't Bittar coffee? :P

Hooray! ;D
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: darthkiwi on April 28, 2011, 07:26:47 AM
There might have been some illogical puzzles in the KQ series before, but I think that's really a weakness of the series. The cheese puzzle makes no sense and could never be figured out except through frustration and trial and error. I just don't think that's a great recipe for an adventure game. And, yes, there were some less than logical puzzles in KQ2 but you did tend to be guided as to what you should do next by the messages on the doors. And it's not like they were *that* illogical: giving flowers or a basket of goodies to red riding hood, giving a shell to the mermaid, using a cloth to cover the bird, rubbing the lamp - these all obey an internal logic. The parts with a less logical solution - catching the fish and then throwing it back, speaking "Home" to go home etc. - were all, in my opinion, much more annoying and weaker parts of the game.

Now, I'm aware that my opinion doesn't really count for much since any criticism of a game will be subjective. But, if you take a look at some of the puzzles in the KQ games then they often obey a sort of logic even if the solutions wouldn't work in real life. In KQ5, for example, you throw a boot at a cat and a pie at a yeti; while this might initially seem odd, both boots and pies are objects which people associate with being thrown; they therefore have a sort of logic to them, since the player would look in their inventory, knowing they have to throw something, and see that they have certain objects which are associated with throwing. A more straightforward example is KQ6's isle of the beast puzzles: the pool is too hot so you throw something cold in it; the archer shoots you so you use a shield; the hedge blocks your path so you cut it. These were all very logical puzzles and, I believe, felt very fair as a result.

I don't think TSL was ever as completely random as the "cheese power" puzzle in KQ5, but there were a few moments where it wasn't as logical as I'd have liked, the "crystal tear for web-b-gone" and standing stone puzzles being my main objections. Note that I do not object to the difficulty of these puzzles: they were both no more difficult than other puzzles, since enough information was given to allow the player to figure them out fairly easily. What I object to is the underlying logic of the situation which gives rise to the puzzle, which, in turn, forms part of the logic of the game world. Yes, the world is magical, but do you ever notice how "Magic fixed everything!" is a really unsatisfying conclusion to any story? Yes, magic could fix any problem and create any bizarre world, but a narrative or game should ideally knit together a world which has a sense of cohesion, so that the player is drawn in, more likely to say "Ah, I see how this fits into the world!" than "What? Why is that there?"

Of course, these are not *major* problems. Both the crystal tear thing and the standing stones puzzle could have been fleshed out in the conversations with the archdruid and the shopkeeper, which would have introduced them into the world more gently and made the player less likely to be surprised at them.

I'm probably nit-picking, and you guys have done a tremendous job with this game. But I feel like if I'd just posted "Yeah! Great job!" on the forums with no criticism or suggestions, then my post wouldn't have been very useful.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Cez on April 28, 2011, 01:32:47 PM
No, don't get me wrong, I appreciate the feedback. For the record, since those two puzzles in question were added recently, we didn't have access to the actors, which is why we introduced them through different means.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: darthkiwi on April 28, 2011, 01:59:41 PM
Ohhhhh, that makes a lot of sense actually. Gotcha ;)

I mean, my goal in pointing out what I see as the flaws of the game is purely to draw attention to how they could be overcome or better implemented in future games. And, obviously, putting TSL together as a whole is a very tricky feat since you're using volunteers, have only limited access to voice actors and are trying to balance the requirements of nostalgia with the requirements of novelty. It's a really difficult thing to get right, and while I don't think TSL is perfect, I don't think *any* conclusion to the KQ series could be perfect.

This game is, I hope, going to act not just as an excellent project but also one on which the team learns a lot, and I'm just pointing out where, in my view, you dropped the ball (understandably) so that you have a better idea of what to be aware of, and learn even more from the experience.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Lambonius on April 29, 2011, 07:45:10 PM
This thread contains way too much coddling for my tastes.  Good on ya, darthkiwi, for the honest crits.  I agree in full with your points.

And now for the barrage of cheap, poorly-worded excuses...
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: KatieHal on April 29, 2011, 09:35:46 PM
Ah, Lamb's in one of those moods tonight I see.  ::)

:smack:
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: DawsonJ on May 14, 2011, 11:33:07 PM
I really appreciate all the hard work put into this game. Thank you to all of the team!

I would like to request some dialogue / description regarding the Dangling Participle in the Four Winds building. He was such an awesome little critter in KQ6, but totally omitted from all descriptions, despite being visible when looking at the Black Widow.

Also, the red checker which stays on the beach on the Isle of Wonder isn't even clickable, just ignored when clicking any icon on it. The same for the woman at the Cafe, near the blacksmith's shop.  Or maybe they're just that way on my computer?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Arkillian on May 15, 2011, 04:00:46 PM
Do you have the extended descriptions turned on?
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: KatieHal on May 15, 2011, 04:24:23 PM
The woman in the cafe doesn't have her own description, no.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: DawsonJ on May 16, 2011, 09:43:44 PM
Sorry, I just noticed your post. I don't have the "Short Narration" box checked under Options, so I guess I have the extended narration. Is the Dangling Participle mentioned? I saw it, but never heard a mention of it, even with subtitles on.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: KatieHal on May 16, 2011, 10:38:08 PM
There isn't a specific narration for him, no.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: LQuest on May 27, 2011, 09:54:32 AM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I just finished episode 3, WHY IS IT OVER!?  I don't want it to be.  Really, I think you guys have done an amazing job.  You've stayed true to the original story and have brought Kings Quest back to life.  Love it! I absolutely can't wait until 4 comes out. 

You guys are awesome!
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: WildAlf on August 08, 2011, 07:13:36 AM
Just finished episode 3 and I am still like Wow!

I still had a few technical problems, which made it hard sometimes. All scenes in the village run very slowly and it is difficult to control the cursor. Graham sometimes refuses to move his legs and arms there and slides over the ground - one time even his feet were under the ground.
A funny thing happened at the tower. I had saved it once, immediately when I arrived there. When I loaded that file, I was all alone - no dragons - but I also could not get into the wagon.
Also the program seemed to need more and more memory and crashed a few times.

Nevertheless this was the best game I played for a long time, it is full of atmosphere and despite of the problems it was just fun. I don't know, if I am sad that I now have to wait a while for the next episode or if I am glad to have a break for some time. This game is addictive as can be.

If you ever plan to make a German translation, I would be glad, if I could help you there.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: KatieHal on August 08, 2011, 07:50:35 AM
Thanks WildAlf! We are doing our best to make sure that Episode 4 doesn't suffer from the same bug issues. :) Glad you're enjoying the game so far!
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Rosella on November 29, 2011, 06:52:00 PM
I know I'm super late to the party, but I have some thoughts I'd like to share. XD

It's just a little thing, but the huge switch in gameplay [spoiler]During Valanice's dream sequence[/spoiler] was something I really found interesting and I feel it contributed a lot to the excitement of both the chapter and that scene. It really was an interesting way of letting the mechanics (and not just the story) tell you that something wasn't quite right and nothing was as you're used to. I really loved it. :D
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: writerlove on November 29, 2011, 08:01:06 PM
I agree. It made the episode even more exciting. Although it was frustrating to no end because I couldn't time the clicks just right and the shadow dragons would kill me!
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: Rosella on November 29, 2011, 08:12:29 PM
Yeah, it definitely took a bit to succeed at but it was really fun. XD
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: DawsonJ on November 29, 2011, 09:51:57 PM
Quote from: writerlove on November 29, 2011, 08:01:06 PM
I agree. It made the episode even more exciting. Although it was frustrating to no end because I couldn't time the clicks just right and the shadow dragons would kill me!

That timing issue seems to be related to the engine, since the clicks don't always work well with other sequences, either. As poor Toegoff experienced in his LP.
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: KatieHal on November 30, 2011, 07:52:14 AM
Among the many reasons we are excited to be switching engines!
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: jayjayaustralia on January 07, 2012, 03:53:54 PM
lol.. just finished Episode 3. My 10 & 12 year old sons play with me, and I allow one hours play a day together only.... so i keep getting bugged everyday all day to play :)

I only just found all this a week ago

thanks for persevering through all you had to be able to do this
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: waltzdancing on January 10, 2012, 07:53:22 PM
I'm glad you are pleased!
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: ashokia on February 25, 2012, 05:26:08 AM
Just finished episode 3 (well I got the last ingredient and then the game broke so I had to watch the ending on Youtube - thanks Kevin, whoever you are!!) and I LOVED it. It was so hard but I was determined not to cheat as I did so often when I played the first Kings Quest games (hey, I was only twelve when I played the first one, cut me some slack). I would never have finished it without the help of my best friend who was playing with me the entire time, he figured out a few things that had me stumped, and I figured out a few things that had him stumped!

It absolutely amazes me the quality of this game and the fact that you guys put it out for free. I can't wait until I get the baby to sleep tonight so I can start episode four.

Thank you so much guys, you rock!!
Title: Re: Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!
Post by: KatieHal on February 25, 2012, 09:12:55 AM
Glad you liked it! and found it suitably challenging :) And thank you!