A few questions:
1) Alex has been in a coma for a little over a day or so by the end of Episode 3, yet his hair is still as spikey as when he is awake; In fact, it's not even slightly different. How is this possible? Does Cassima gel his hair for him while he's sleeping; if so, why? Is his stylishness that important while he's asleep?
2) Why were Alex and Rosella put in their bed holding hands? It comes off a bit...well...freaky. They fall down comatose in different locations so it's not like they happened to fall that way, so did someone in the Castle think it would be a funny, sick joke to position them in such a way?
3) Both of the previous weddings in the KQ series have taken place in the homeland of one of the people getting married. However, in the context of the game itself, there's never any clear reason given as to why Rosella and Edgar are married in The Land of the Green Isles and not Daventry (Rosella's homeland) or Etheria (Edgar's homeland). It's clear that the game started off in the Green Isles to capitalize on the nostalgia for KQ6, but there's never any in-universe explanation for Rosella and Edgar getting married in the Green Isles in the game itself. The only explanation given by the team (outside of the game) is that Rosella wanted to get married in the Green Isles because she loved the garden on the Castle of the Crown and was invited by Cassima to get married there (again, this is not mentioned in any of the episodes released so far).
Logically, wouldn't Graham, Alexander, et al want to visit Etheria? They've already been to one wedding in the Green Isles.
Also, wouldn't holding the wedding in Etheria have suited the plot better--After all, a large part of the plot, indeed, the very quest itself, deals with Graham having to save Alex & Rosella, and the only way he can save them, is by him going into their dreams...And the weaver of Dreams himself, and his sister Mab (the Lady of Dreams) both reside in Etheria.
Not only that, but going to Etheria would open up PLENTY of new opportunities for exploration. Unlike the Green Isles, we've never seen all that much of Etheria, which would allow us to explore what would in many ways be a brand new land rather than retreading through an already seen land with some extra scenes added.
Going to Etheria would allow for totally new areas of interest without having to retcon the geography of the original games (as TSL does by adding the new town square where there wasn't one before, the new additions to the Castle of the Crown, etc)
4) Why doesn't Graham seek the aid of the Weaver of Dreams or Mab? We're told in EP 2 if I recall correctly that Graham has to go to into their dreams to save the Twins...Why doesn't he simply ask Titania to take him to Etheria?
For one, if he was taken to Etheria, he could ask the very FATES--who are Titania's aunts--for their advice, rather than the Arch Druid (I would think being as they control fate and destiny itself, they'd know more about the situation than the Arch Druid does), and also, the Weaver of Dreams is, after all, Titania's own brother. Surely, he'd help Graham if Titania asked him to?
Titania is in the Land of the Green Isles with Oberon, so all Graham would have to do is say something like: "My wife Valanice once told me about her adventures in your homeland, and that in Etheria, she met a man called the Dream Weaver, and the Arch Druid of the Isle of the Mists told me that in order to save my children, I need to seek entrance into their dreams. Do you think, good Fairy Queene, that you could take me to meet this Weaver of Dreams? Perhaps he could be of help in this dire situation."
5) The lion chained up at the top of the tower isn't seen in the flashback at the end of Episode 3. Where did it come from? If one of the BCS members put it there afterward, it wouldn't make sense -- why would the BCS want to make it even more difficult for Graham to rescue, marry, and have children with Valanice, which is what their leader wants/hopes for?
6) In the sequence in Valanice's nightmare, in Episode 3, Shadrack says to Valanice: "Back...Back to the memories which you wanted to get rid of...Back to everything you were forced to forget...Back to everything you chose to forget" The last part doesn't make sense, since Valanice doesn't CHOOSE to forget anything, her memory was erased by Manny, as Manannan tells Shadrack in the flashback at the end of the episode.
7) In KQ7, Lady Mab (the Lady of Dreams) tells Valanice that if they manage to stop the threat to Etheria (Malicia), she will send Valanice only sweet, good dreams. Where are Valanice's horrible nightmares in TSL Episode 3 coming from, then?
Wow I'm not interested in revisiting all of those things yet again, but I will point out that you actually asked like 8 questions there.
Quote from: wilco64256 on March 05, 2011, 12:36:38 AM
Wow I'm not interested in revisiting all of those things yet again, but I will point out that you actually asked like 8 questions there.
I don't believe the question of why Graham doesn't seek the aid of the Weaver of Dreams, Mab or The Fates has been addressed. Nor has the question about the lion in KQ2 at Valanice's door, as well as the question about Lady Mab saying she'd only send Valanice good dreams from now on in KQ7 been addressed.
And yes, I was thinking of more questions as I went along.
for someone who apparently hates TSL like you say you do, you certainly spend a lot of time analyzing the story :)
Wait until the story is complete. Questions shall be answered.
However, just for fun... Why didn't the Fates help Titania and Oberon find Edgar when he was kidnapped by Lolotte? Especially if he was their niece's son? I mean, the Fates being the Fates know exactly what would happen, or where Edgar would have been, right? Why didn't they do something earlier to stop Malicia from going bad, or at least warn Titania that that would happen? especially if they were their aunt as well. Could the Fates have other reasons? At least it seems to me that would be the easier answer to not say there were big plot holes in KQ4 and KQ7.
And Alex's gel is the extra strong stuff. But..... really? That's like asking why Alexander doesn't get wet after he goes into the sea in past King's Quests.
And, also, you are welcomed to go make the game where Rosella and Edgar get married in Etherea. We chose for them to be married in the Green Isles. Oh, but wait, you probably won't be able because with the deal with Telltale probably nobody else can really be making games... which is very funny that you are so happy about that when 6 months ago you were so adamant about no specific group ever having exclusive rights to this license so that everybody could have their visions of King's Quest. I say plot hole!
:)
I would also like to suggest that somebody might have put Rosella's and Alex's hands together with the thought that maybe that could help them get out the trance somehow. Desperate and clueless people come up with ideas like that.
As far as Rosella and Edgar's wedding ... maybe they couldn't agree weather to do it in Etheria or Daventry, so they decided to do it somewhere else to be fair to each others' families.
*is bored so he'll answer all of these unofficially*
1) You're assuming they use modern hair care products, themselves the product of at least decades of chemistry? They use magic to alter their appearance. This might seem like a bit of "the wizard did it" but in this context, "a wizard did it" is totally sound--on top of which, in this case, it was more likely a genie. ;)
2) Why are bodies in caskets often thus positioned? Because it LOOKS peaceful. Also, something had to be done with their hands... if they were simply lying off to their sides, they'd look stiff. Any other positioning that people actually sleep in would look--and obviously would be--posed. Thus, the developers chose to pose them in what would seem the most natural/least stiff way for someone to position a sleeping body.
3) But it is explained in the Four Winds. ... ... ...and you've guessed at a reason: to capitalize on KQ6. Honestly, if you already know the answers to your own questions, you are just wasting the class's time by asking the instructor to recapitulate your own reasoning. ::)
3a. Maybe they already have visited Etheria? Maybe Rosella wanted to spend time in Etheria/Eldritch for her honeymoon and thought it would be silly to have the wedding in the same realm as the honeymoon.
3b. The obvious answer to the question of whether or not having the setting be Etheria would have aided the plot or not is "No." Do recall that we are getting a reduced version of the game and that Etheria was once going to be revisited. If they chose to set their story in the Green Isles, it is likely that this part of the whole story was originally going to be set in the Green Isles. Maybe these other issues would have been addressed in the broader strokes that we can no longer see--for instance, when we got to Etheria--but we can't know that now. :-\ *shrugs*
4) See question #7. It's possible that since these are magically induced dreams, they are beyond Mab's and the Dream Weaver's ability to influence (likely if they wanted to help, which no doubt they would, it would entail some effort on their part to break through the spell's power. If we are to believe the hype about the Black and Silver Cloaks' powers, this would be difficult to nigh-impossible).
4a. (The Fates) Check your Greek myth. The Fates are in an awkward position: at once obedient to two higher powers, destiny itself (destiny is often assumed to be a higher more primal such as Ananke/Adrasteia (same goddess), et al. depending on the theogony at work) and Zeus (this does depend on the myth, but this is the general consensus if the myths are taken together (to some extent, I may be mixing them up with their Norse counterparts, the Norns, but whatev'... they're all just wyrd, anyway)). When they are obedient to destiny, Zeus (in this case, likely, Oberon) doesn't hold much sway.
5) This is quite simple. The BCS members have apparently (for their own reasons) wanted to build up the house of Daventry into successful gentlemen adventurers (for instance, it seems to have been important that Alexander know some magic; it seems to have been equally important that he learn this on his own without Manannan's direct assistance). You can't do that if you don't present challenges. The lion after all presents only a minor hurdle to a successfully prepared Graham (you can't even get to it without having one of two ways to handle it, IIRC). It seems to me that the BCS would likely have known this.
6) Perhaps, he means that she chose the path that included having her memory wiped when she resisted going along with the plan. I mean, come on, he's a machiavellian Xanatos-type schemer: we cannot expect his statements to not have a convoluted twisted perspective and psychology under it. "It's totes your fault that we had to erase your memory, Val-pal."
7) Magic often allows mere mortals to tread in the realms, domains, and patronages of gods. (Magic by its very nature might be considered as the power to alter the natural order built and maintained by gods.) It seems to be the case that Shadrack is responsible for the dreams.
Quote from: Sir Perceval of Daventry on March 05, 2011, 12:34:36 AM
A few questions:
1) Alex has been in a coma for a little over a day or so by the end of Episode 3, yet his hair is still as spikey as when he is awake; In fact, it's not even slightly different. How is this possible? Does Cassima gel his hair for him while he's sleeping; if so, why? Is his stylishness that important while he's asleep?
Because that what his model looks like. (Also, it's been less than a day.)
BAD! BAD PERCIVAL!! No pointing out TSL inconsistencies or flaws!! BAD! BAD!! I'm getting the newspaper!!! :suffer:
"A Wizard Did It."
It IS King's Quest, after all. There ARE wizards.
Bt
damn right! :)
Quote from: Blackthorne on March 05, 2011, 12:21:24 PM
"A Wizard Did It."
It IS King's Quest, after all. There ARE wizards.
Bt
That was my reasoning. I mean: given the setting, which is more likely--wizard or hair gel? :P
Quote from: Sir Perceval of Daventry on March 05, 2011, 12:34:36 AM
Also, wouldn't holding the wedding in Etheria have suited the plot better--After all, a large part of the plot, indeed, the very quest itself, deals with Graham having to save Alex & Rosella, and the only way he can save them, is by him going into their dreams...And the weaver of Dreams himself, and his sister Mab (the Lady of Dreams) both reside in Etheria.
Edgar: Let's have the wedding in Etheria. That way, if some evil wizard puts you in a coma, we can go to the weaver of dreams and Mab for help!
Rosella: ???
Quote from: snabbott on March 05, 2011, 02:03:33 PMEdgar: Let's have the wedding in Etheria. That way, if some evil wizard puts you in a coma, we can go to the weaver of dreams and Mab for help!
Rosella: ???
What Percival was detailing was not an in-game rationale for having the wedding in Etheria but a design rationale for staging the wedding in Etheria based on what the writers knew about the rest of the plot.
Quote from: Enchantermon on March 05, 2011, 03:05:13 PM
Quote from: snabbott on March 05, 2011, 02:03:33 PMEdgar: Let's have the wedding in Etheria. That way, if some evil wizard puts you in a coma, we can go to the weaver of dreams and Mab for help!
Rosella: ???
What Percival was detailing was not an in-game rationale for having the wedding in Etheria but a design rationale for staging the wedding in Etheria based on what the writers knew about the rest of the plot.
Exactly.
But then again, there's the rest of the plot that nobody but the designers know about :)
Quote from: Delling on March 05, 2011, 07:55:34 AM
5) This is quite simple. The BCS members have apparently (for their own reasons) wanted to build up the house of Daventry into successful gentlemen adventurers (for instance, it seems to have been important that Alexander know some magic; it seems to have been equally important that he learn this on his own without Manannan's direct assistance). You can't do that if you don't present challenges. The lion after all presents only a minor hurdle to a successfully prepared Graham (you can't even get to it without having one of two ways to handle it, IIRC). It seems to me that the BCS would likely have known this.
See? You just have to really see into the story being shaped up. That's why I sometimes don't bother answering, because the answers are in the game. Bravo, Delling.
Episode 2 Opening:
ArchDruid: "You are a good and strong king because you have seen the face of evil".
Quote from: Cez on March 05, 2011, 04:08:22 PMBut then again, there's the rest of the plot that nobody but the designers know about :)
This is why I've never brought up Percival's question before, because I had the same one myself. As soon as the Archdruid told me I'd be going into their dreams, I thought I was going to be off to Etheria, and was confused when I wasn't.
Quote from: Delling on March 05, 2011, 07:55:34 AM
6) Perhaps, he means that she chose the path that included having her memory wiped when she resisted going along with the plan. I mean, come on, he's a machiavellian Xanatos-type schemer: we cannot expect his statements to not have a convoluted twisted perspective and psychology under it. "It's totes your fault that we had to erase your memory, Val-pal."
Again, bravo. Shadrack's most dangerous power is his psychological attack. That's essentially how I defined him: The worse kind of trickster out there, the kind that gets into and screws up with your mind --again, as shown already twice in the game: Valanice, and the intro with Alexander/Valanice.
As for the dreams, Delling is on the good path here. Have you given it the thought that it may not be the same realm of dreams and therefore no one has domain over it but the Silver Cloaks? I could go on but I will be spoiling a lot of stuff. Why are you so obstinate in seeing holes in a plot you have no idea how it concludes?
This would be like walking out of the theater halfway through a movie complaining about how everything wasn't all thoroughly explained at that point of the film.
Quote from: Cez on March 05, 2011, 03:58:30 AM
for someone who apparently hates TSL like you say you do, you certainly spend a lot of time analyzing the story :)
Wait until the story is complete. Questions shall be answered.
However, just for fun... Why didn't the Fates help Titania and Oberon find Edgar when he was kidnapped by Lolotte? Especially if he was their niece's son? I mean, the Fates being the Fates know exactly what would happen, or where Edgar would have been, right? Why didn't they do something earlier to stop Malicia from going bad, or at least warn Titania that that would happen? especially if they were their aunt as well. Could the Fates have other reasons? At least it seems to me that would be the easier answer to not say there were big plot holes in KQ4 and KQ7.
And Alex's gel is the extra strong stuff. But..... really? That's like asking why Alexander doesn't get wet after he goes into the sea in past King's Quests.
And, also, you are welcomed to go make the game where Rosella and Edgar get married in Etherea. We chose for them to be married in the Green Isles. Oh, but wait, you probably won't be able because with the deal with Telltale probably nobody else can really be making games... which is very funny that you are so happy about that when 6 months ago you were so adamant about no specific group ever having exclusive rights to this license so that everybody could have their visions of King's Quest. I say plot hole!
:)
I thought part of the point of this game was to FIX 'plotholes' created by the original games, to bridge the gaps, tie things together; however you choose to put it. It's kind of an infantile cop out to simply answer, "BUT THE OTHER KQ GAMES HAD PLOT HOLES TOO!" when you've basically said your game was the one which was supposed to "fix" the others or however you put it, to surpass the others, to be tighter woven and answer questions raised in the originals. You can't have your cake, and eat it too. Don't say your game is going to mend plotholes when it's creating all new ones.
You keep saying wait till the end, or wait till the next chapter; well, at the end of each episode I'm left with more questions than answers, to be frank. And more holes open as we go along.
Oh, and we don't actually see if his hair is wet or not in KQ6. He's a small VGA character who is so low-pixel that he is actually faceless. You can't use a 19 year old game's technological limitations to excuse what is clearly a design oversight on the part of a brand new game which utilizes very clear 3D graphics. Again, it's basically saying, "BUT THEY DID IT TOO!" Nu-uh. Ain't falling it for it, pal. You can only get away with
THAT excuse so many times.
We'll see. Your response to someone asking very LOGICAL question the plot is "If you don't like it go, make a game yourself" which, again, is childish and infantile. I'm asking a logical question--since this game is founded upon realism and logic--a question of the plot which makes sense. Either Graham is a dummy (as you've presented poor Edgar as) or we have a plothole in the game, a horrific place in a story where even logic cannot escape. Actually, if you want the blunt truth Cez, I didn't want
YOU * having the license. I didn't care if anyone else got it, t be frank. Besides, good friend, I've heard that there is an original designer working on the game, apparently, you yourself let that factoid loose somewhere?
Since we're bringing up six months ago, you intimated to me in a PM six months ago this TT deal would be basically the worst thing ever to happen. You told me I'd "wish you had gotten the license", if I recall correctly. Besides, you were hoping to get the license yourself as well as the licenses to SQ, QFG, and GK. Your OWN stated vision for a commercial KQ game was much the same as TellTales: A reboot.
Except with your reboot I shudder to think at what sort of insane story tie-ins you'd create. I have a strong feeling that TT's plot won't make Valanice be Manananna's daughter and a lying, secretive a druid or make Edgar look like a total moron, or twist the original games around and create a convoluted, mind bending storyline like yours is so far. Your game takes incredible leaps of logic and retcons the originals in ways that make AGDI's "The Father" plot look tame. It's dream logic. Where on Earth did you even get the Valanice is Manny's daughter idea from? Seriously?
Just because she had the weakest backstory of the original games doesn't mean hers automatically must be the most complex. You were going for an "epic" story with this, but complex does not equal epic. It's like cramming a whole lot of craziness in there just to baffle the audience with bull**** and pretty music. Traumatic backstories do not equal epic. I would call KQ5 or KQ7 epic and I could summarize their plot and their character motivations very easily. Can't say the same for TSL. It's a mess.
Rather than getting all childish, why don't you actually answer a question? Why sidestep it? You're the creator, why nt answer simple, logical questions? Surely the guy who wrote the plot can do that, right?
*= When I say YOU, I mean
you, Cesar Bittar. None of my points, past or present, refer to Katie; I tend to think she would've written a great KQ game on her own if her Lieutenant character is anything to go by.
Quote from: Cez on March 05, 2011, 04:32:41 PMWhy are you so obstinate in seeing holes in a plot you have no idea how it concludes?
Was that directed at me? Because I'm not being obstinate...I just said that I was confused, but I didn't bring it up because the story's not over yet.
Quote from: Enchantermon on March 05, 2011, 05:02:32 PM
Quote from: Cez on March 05, 2011, 04:32:41 PMWhy are you so obstinate in seeing holes in a plot you have no idea how it concludes?
Was that directed at me? Because I'm not being obstinate...I just said that I was confused, but I didn't bring it up because the story's not over yet.
No, man, that wasn't directed at you. It was directed at the OP, who has a habit of doing this. You are totally cool and reasonable.
This thread amuses me.
Quote from: Cez on March 05, 2011, 05:07:48 PMNo, man, that wasn't directed at you.
Okay, just making sure. Thanks. :)
Haters gonna hate. Seriously dude- wait till the end of the game. You have a lot of valid points, but stories have to have a certain amount of flow to them or it becomes too much information at once. The information seems too much right now cause they've actually given us A LOT of new information in the last 3 episodes. I got a bit stary eyed at the end of part 3 too, but right now, they've thrown us a curve ball. We haven't caught it yet. I've found playing games like this which have complex story lines (and fanatsy usually have complex storylines) that as long as it makes sense in the end that it can make the ending more dynamic, cause it's not just a 'Graham is going to save his family by doing the Mc Gyver thing'. Having new revelations about personalities can give us new appreciation for characters, rather than us taking their original personalities for granted.
[spoiler]I mean- It's looking pretty obvious that Graham is a descendent of a silver cloak- right? If this is true, then it makes sense why adventuring is in his blood. Why fighting dark magic and evil seems to fuel him. [/spoiler]
Quote from: Sir Perceval of Daventry on March 05, 2011, 04:59:04 PM
*= When I say YOU, I mean you, Cesar Bittar. None of my points, past or present, refer to Katie; I tend to think she would've written a great KQ game on her own if her Lieutenant character is anything to go by.
Actually, I designed that particular puzzle and wrote most of those lines. So, thank you.
As for the rest of the email, I'm never going to give you the answers you want to hear. If I pointed plot holes in other King's Quest games is because we've already seen them and we are supposed to be fixing them. If I can't give you a straight answer it is because I'm not going to spoil the plot that thousands of others are enjoying just to please you.
But you want a straight answer for example on the spikey hair? Ok, I'll give you one. We don't have the time for those details. Changing the spikey hair in Alexander means that we have to alter the model, and rebind him. When there are many things that need attention, that becomes a detail that you don't have the luxury of time for. I wasn't joking with, for example, KQ6. They could have just darkened the sprites so that it looked like Alexander got wet, just like they do in Uncharted. Just because it was VGA, it doesn't mean it couldn't be done. The reason why it wasn't done wasn't the resolution, but because those are details that cost a lot of money to produce.
But when someone poses such questions with such obvious malicious intentions, I can't take them seriously. What completely baffles me is that if you dislike the game so much, why are you so obsessed about it?
I'm sorry that TSL ruined your life. But seriously man, go and play other things that you can really enjoy. Why the masochism?
Quote from: Cez on March 05, 2011, 07:07:25 PM
Quote from: Sir Perceval of Daventry on March 05, 2011, 04:59:04 PM
*= When I say YOU, I mean you, Cesar Bittar. None of my points, past or present, refer to Katie; I tend to think she would've written a great KQ game on her own if her Lieutenant character is anything to go by.
Actually, I designed that particular puzzle and wrote most of those lines. So, thank you.
As for the rest of the email, I'm never going to give you the answers you want to hear. If I pointed plot holes in other King's Quest games is because we've already seen them and we are supposed to be fixing them. If I can't give you a straight answer it is because I'm not going to spoil the plot that thousands of others are enjoying just to please you.
But you want a straight answer for example on the spikey hair? Ok, I'll give you one. We don't have the time for those details. Changing the spikey hair in Alexander means that we have to alter the model, and rebind him. When there are many things that need attention, that becomes a detail that you don't have the luxury of time for. I wasn't joking with, for example, KQ6. They could have just darkened the sprites so that it looked like Alexander got wet, just like they do in Uncharted. Just because it was VGA, it doesn't mean it couldn't be done. The reason why it wasn't done wasn't the resolution, but because those are details that cost a lot of money to produce.
But when someone poses such questions with such obvious malicious intentions, I can't take them seriously. What completely baffles me is that if you dislike the game so much, why are you so obsessed about it?
I'm sorry that TSL ruined your life. But seriously man, go and play other things that you can really enjoy. Why the masochism?
Actually, the question I asked was a simple one concerning the design. Graham could have EASILY visited Titania after talking to the Arch Druid in Episode 2 and asked about her homeland. Even if she gave him some excuse, the plot hole would be closed. A lot of the plot holes I've pointed out in the past like the Shamir one are never answered in game, but answered OUT OF THE GAME with some excuse. That's not a sign indicating a strong, well written story if holes in the story have to rectified outside of the game, after it's out. A story should be able to close any holes internally. Ever watch RedletterMedia's reviews of the Star Wars prequels?
And no, dude, KQ was developed in 1991-1992. VGA technology was pretty much in it's infancy when they were developing KQ6. Even scaling was a brand new idea that hadn't really been done before. I truly doubt technologically it was ever considered given they were working with largely new techology, and KQ was used as the testing ground for such technology. Sierra's games always tried to be as cinematic as possible, always hit on VERY fine, tiny points. The only limit to their creativity was the technology available. They were great. Comparing KQ6's sprites to that of Uncharted, a game which came out
SEVENTEEN YEARS after KQ6 is a bit unfair and is a totally, well, stupid comparison.
But as I've noticed, you seem to think you can somehow do KQ better than Roberta could or did (evidenced by you rewriting her games retroactively, in a most disrespectful fashion), and you worship at the alter of Jane Jensen even though she only did one KQ game.
Besides, Cez, after NINE YEARS in development with multiple release dates missed you'd think time would've been invested in fixing these little issues in your game. KQ6 didn't have 9 years. It had one year to come out. I mean this game was supposed to be done in 2005, was "90% complete" last July, etc. So many times it was supposedly finished. Yet year after year delays come up for some strange reason ::)
Oh no, TSL didn't ruin my life. But it's irrevocably tainted and stained my perception of a series that I've been in love with for most of my life. I tend to be passionate about things I love. And canon or not, it's hurt my concept of the original games, because I sadly can't erase my memories of the revelation that Manannan is Valanice's father, that Alexander is some shell of a person, that KQ is this dark, dreary world, from my mind. It's distorted my perception of the original games and has made playing the originals kind of a depressing experience.
As for why I stick around? Well, it's the same reason people watch a train wreck. They want to look away, but can't.
Sorry for "irrevocably tainting" this series for you forever, but you do keep coming back and knowingly playing more of it.
And yes we do answer some things outside of the game to provide clarification for things that actually do happen inside the game or that may come up later but we just choose to provide early information on some aspects of the plot. There will be unanswered questions still for some time, we're only 3 episodes into the thing.
Fine, you win. All you say is correct.
*Goes to do something productive*
Quote from: Cez on March 05, 2011, 07:29:19 PM
Fine, you win. All you say is correct.
*Goes to do something productive*
Yeah, I kind of knew I was correct I was all along ::)
Unlike some people I know, though, I can admit when I'm in the wrong ;)
Does "doing something productive" = strangling giraffes and taking ten years to develop a piece of horrible fan fiction and hyping it up like it's the best thing since sliced bread?
It was actually only 8 years (it would take anybody that long if they were shut down on multiple occasions) and for bad fanfiction we've gotten a surprising amount of both local and international positive press coverage, covermounts on major gaming magazines, incredible download figures, etc. Weird, I know.
Quote from: wilco64256 on March 05, 2011, 07:36:37 PM
It was actually only 8 years (it would take anybody that long if they were shut down on multiple occasions) and for bad fanfiction we've gotten a surprising amount of both local and international positive press coverage, covermounts on major gaming magazines, incredible download figures, etc. Weird, I know.
8 years, 9 years, 10 years. Nearly a decade it is still.
And I've heard Cesar himself say the game's development truly began in 2002...which is 9 years ago.
Notice I said, incredibly overhyped? You guys went full PR crazy and hyped up your ''shutdowns'' (which only lasted what, 4-6 months in total between both of them) as some epic battle between the rebels vs the empire.
Not only that, but given that your leader worked for professional companies at one point, and you had Say who was a PR wiz, I can understand the coverage. Hype definitely goes a long way, and I guess in the end, it's not butchering the canon of the series that matters, it's PR, baby.
That's why this was based on KQ to begin with, I'm guessing. An original game with this storyline wouldn't have gotten half the hype or attention this has gotten, and you know that as well as I do. You're in essence riding Roberta's coattails while at the same time rewriting her very own work. A sequel, you know, doesn't have to retcon the originals.
Quote8 years, 9 years, 10 years. Nearly a decade it is still.
And I've heard Cesar himself say the game's development truly began in 2002...which is 9 years ago.
Notice I said, incredibly overhyped? You guys went full PR crazy and hyped up your ''shutdowns'' (which only lasted what, 4-6 months in total between both of them) as some epic battle between the rebels vs the empire.
it was pretty epic. shuddup.
trolls gon' be trolls.
you remind me a helluvalot like DMD.
ok. I'm finished. Nothing useful to add here.
Quote from: atec123 on March 05, 2011, 07:45:04 PM
Quote8 years, 9 years, 10 years. Nearly a decade it is still.
And I've heard Cesar himself say the game's development truly began in 2002...which is 9 years ago.
Notice I said, incredibly overhyped? You guys went full PR crazy and hyped up your ''shutdowns'' (which only lasted what, 4-6 months in total between both of them) as some epic battle between the rebels vs the empire.
it was pretty epic. shuddup.
trolls gon' be trolls.
you remind me a helluvalot like DMD.
ok. I'm finished. Nothing useful to add here.
I'm DMD, dur.
Yeah funny how he reminds you so much of that other person who complained about the exact same things. Interesting. Fascinating even.
And no, starting a production in 2002 and beginning release in 2010 is only 8 years. And yes, it was epic - no other fan group has ever overcome two legal battles and gotten this level of release without ever spending a single cent on marketing or pr at all. We didn't have some super-crackshot legal team helping us out or anything like that, just fans. Amazing.
Haters will hate but the fact remains that King's Quest is more popular now than it has been in decades primarily thanks to several fan groups that have done some solid work with the series over that time.
Quote from: Sir Perceval of Daventry on March 05, 2011, 07:46:58 PM
Quote from: atec123 on March 05, 2011, 07:45:04 PM
Quote8 years, 9 years, 10 years. Nearly a decade it is still.
And I've heard Cesar himself say the game's development truly began in 2002...which is 9 years ago.
Notice I said, incredibly overhyped? You guys went full PR crazy and hyped up your ''shutdowns'' (which only lasted what, 4-6 months in total between both of them) as some epic battle between the rebels vs the empire.
it was pretty epic. shuddup.
trolls gon' be trolls.
you remind me a helluvalot like DMD.
ok. I'm finished. Nothing useful to add here.
I'm DMD, dur.
Yes you are, and just as paranoid and misled as ever. And most of the people on our team have been playing King's Quest since before you were even born so don't even pull that, "You don't care about this series as much as me" crap...
Quote from: wilco64256 on March 05, 2011, 07:54:25 PM
Yeah funny how he reminds you so much of that other person who complained about the exact same things. Interesting. Fascinating even.
And no, starting a production in 2002 and beginning release in 2010 is only 8 years. And yes, it was epic - no other fan group has ever overcome two legal battles and gotten this level of release without ever spending a single cent on marketing or pr at all. We didn't have some super-crackshot legal team helping us out or anything like that, just fans. Amazing.
Haters will hate but the fact remains that King's Quest is more popular now than it has been in decades primarily thanks to several fan groups that have done some solid work with the series over that time.
You're still in production, though. It's not like all is said and done and the games are out.
No other fan group happened to have their C&D lifted on the team leader's birthday, nor had a leader who worked for the same company that issued said C&D. Gotten this level of release? Eight, nine years in development should produce a pretty good looking game. Yes, shiny things are all that matter. Not the plot or making sure everything is fastened together nicely or staying true to the series you're basing the game in. Nope. Just the epic struggles and pretty graphics.
More popular than it has been in decades? Puhlease. The series was the best selling game series of all time up right to MoE. KQ5 was the highest selling game of all time until Myst came out, or so I've read. Mask itself outsold all the other KQ games or so I've read, and this was 14 years into the series, and only a little over a decade ago. Not "decades", aeons or what have you.
The only reason KQ ''died'' is because the narrow minded new management of Sierra in 1999 didn't see any future for adventure games. They refused to develop any more adventure games and tried making the adventure games in development at the time (SQ7, QFG5, KQ8) more action and RPG oriented. They didn't understand Sierra or KQ. And not long after 1999, Sierra died itself. So, let's not pretend that KQ was some series thrown to the ash heap of history before TSL came along.
King's Quest has always been pretty popular. It never stopped being THE premier adventure game series. The very fact that several fan groups (and a bunch in general over the years) exist and have existed attest to it's popularity and shelf life as a series.
And let's not forget--Sierra considered reviving the series back in 2002 themselves (thank God they didn't), and revived LSL around the same time. The adventure game genre has always been a niche market compared to Action Games and RPGS, but within that niche market, KQ has always reigned.
Like I said, misled. You believe whatever you like, we'll keep working on a game that the vast majority of the people who play it like just fine. Your ranting won't ever convince us to change a thing because it's senseless and incoherent. The only truly disturbing thing here is how much attention you pay to something that causes you such pain - if I found a game that I detested so thoroughly I just wouldn't play it any more. What you're doing is just plain unhealthy man.
Quote from: wilco64256 on March 05, 2011, 08:09:39 PM
Like I said, misled. You believe whatever you like, we'll keep working on a game that the vast majority of the people who play it like just fine. Your ranting won't ever convince us to change a thing because it's senseless and incoherent. The only truly disturbing thing here is how much attention you pay to something that causes you such pain - if I found a game that I detested so thoroughly I just wouldn't play it any more. What you're doing is just plain unhealthy man.
Hey man, someone's got to speak up. You surely don't think I'm alone in my feelings, do you? ;)
Senseless and incoherent? Are we talking about TSL's plot? If so, I agree with you--senseless and incoherent are good descriptors for it. Good word usage, my man!
Quote from: Sir Perceval of Daventry on March 05, 2011, 07:41:49 PM
You guys went full PR crazy and hyped up your ''shutdowns'' (which only lasted what, 4-6 months in total between both of them) as some epic battle between the rebels vs the empire.
Can you imagine if it was, though? :D Duuuuuude, that woulda been a sweet battle!
VIVENDI: Your powers are weak, old man.
CESAR: You can't win, Vivendi. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!VIVENDI: I've been waiting for you, Cesar. We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now
I am the master.
CESAR: Only a master of evil!
*Epic lightsaber duel. Cesar slices through the C&D order*
CESAR: I got him! I GOT HIM!
KATIE (watching from sidelines) : Great, kid! Now don't get cocky!
Bwa ha ha! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bzWSJG93P8) :rofl:
Personally, I'm not a fan of TSL's story. I don't like the tone and I don't feel like it fits with the rest of the series--to me that's a big negative. I also HATED the ending of episode 2. So much so that I went on several long diatribes about it on various boards. ;)
Frankly, I haven't played episode 3 yet, and I don't want to. I know I probably won't like the story, and what I've heard of it so far (I've read all the spoilers) seems to confirm my suspicions.
It's the cliffhangers that really are the worst for me. They take the worst, most non-King's Quest parts of the story and hang the ending of each episode on them, and I've realized that playing through the episodes in this fashion is just going to give me indigestion. But, I do ultimately want to see where the story goes, so I'm planning on waiting until the last episode is released, and then I'll go through and give the full game a play.
I'd recommend you take a similar approach, Percival. I agree with many of your sentiments, but it's just not worth getting up in arms about at this point. I'd say take break and don't touch any TSL installments until the game's finished. Then once its story is complete, grab a beer and a snack and rip it apart for all to see.
But really, until then, it's just not worth it.
Quote from: Lambonius on March 05, 2011, 08:24:50 PM
Personally, I'm not a fan of TSL's story. I don't like the tone and I don't feel like it fits with the rest of the series--to me that's a big negative. I also HATED the ending of episode 2. So much so that I went on several long diatribes about it on various boards. ;)
Frankly, I haven't played episode 3 yet, and I don't want to. I know I probably won't like the story, and what I've heard of it so far (I've read all the spoilers) seems to confirm my suspicions.
It's the cliffhangers that really are the worst for me. They take the worst, most non-King's Quest parts of the story and hang the ending of each episode on them, and I've realized that playing through the episodes in this fashion is just going to give me indigestion. But, I do ultimately want to see where the story goes, so I'm planning on waiting until the last episode is released, and then I'll go through and give the full game a play.
I'd recommend you take a similar approach, Percival. I agree with many of your sentiments, but it's just not worth getting up in arms about at this point. I'd say take break and don't touch any TSL installments until the game's finished. Then once its story is complete, grab a beer and a snack and rip it apart for all to see.
But really, until then, it's just not worth it.
I haven't played the game since Episode II, and I didn't complete it. I've been watching playthroughs of it on youtube.
Still not worth it - if you hate it that much then just stay away, save yourself the headache.
Quote from: Lambonius on March 05, 2011, 08:24:50 PM
I'd recommend you take a similar approach, Percival. I agree with many of your sentiments, but it's just not worth getting up in arms about at this point. I'd say take break and don't touch any TSL installments until the game's finished. Then once its story is complete, grab a beer and a snack and rip it apart for all to see.
Warn me when this happens so I can ignore the thread. No offence, but I'm not interested in negativity. If I've enjoyed a game at the end of part 5, then reading a hate thread will be what puts a sour note on the whole ordeal. Will there be plot holes at the end of TSL? I actually don't care. Wast the art work as accurate as it could be? I don't care. I'm getting to the point where I almost don't want to read feed back threads here. Most are positive, but the negative ones are REALLY putting a damper on the game for me cause I actually really enjoy it.
Quote from: Arkillian on March 05, 2011, 08:48:52 PM
Quote from: Lambonius on March 05, 2011, 08:24:50 PM
I'd recommend you take a similar approach, Percival. I agree with many of your sentiments, but it's just not worth getting up in arms about at this point. I'd say take break and don't touch any TSL installments until the game's finished. Then once its story is complete, grab a beer and a snack and rip it apart for all to see.
Warn me when this happens so I can ignore the thread. No offence, but I'm not interested in negativity. If I've enjoyed a game at the end of part 5, then reading a hate thread will be what puts a sour note on the whole ordeal. Will there be plot holes at the end of TSL? I actually don't care. Wast the art work as accurate as it could be? I don't care. I'm getting to the point where I almost don't want to read feed back threads here. Most are positive, but the negative ones are REALLY putting a damper on the game for me cause I actually really enjoy it.
All due respect, if the plot is crappy, and that doesn't matter; if the artwork is inaccurate, and that doesn't matter, what does matter? Aren't there standards?
I'd assume if she thought the artwork and plot were crappy she'd actually just stop playing. Pretty straightforward for most people.
you know it's really bad when Lamb asks you to back off.
(btw, congrats on the baby news, Lamb.)
Quote from: wilco64256 on March 05, 2011, 09:23:55 PM
I'd assume if she thought the artwork and plot were crappy she'd actually just stop playing. Pretty straightforward for most people.
Word. Seriously, I can handle less than perfect art. If it was s*** then I'd complain. If it was merely excellent and not perfect I'd be happy which I am. If the plot
at the end of the game tied up only 90% of the plot holes and left a few stray ends then to me it would've been an excellent plot, but not a perfect one. Please don't warp my words. I'm not star struck by the glitter over the game. I'm well aware of it's flaws. I am an artist, as well as a writer. I understand that when it's something you're doing for LOVE and you're not getting paid, excellent is a phenomenal level to achieve. If this game went pro and I was paying for it I'd be irking, but only at the end of the game when it was fully released.
The standard with a free game like this is ENJOYMENT. Just as the whole King's Quest series is. Part 3 was the first part where I truly felt like I was playing a King's Quest game. If it only gets better from here, then I can forgive episode 1 being mostly movie, and Episode 2 being mostly chatter. Stories with complicated plots have to have each part addressed in their own time to not overwhelm the player. Frankly, I'm not sure how they'll finish the game in 2 more parts. I'd think they'd need 3, but they're the ones that know what's going to happen- not me. If they can do it in 2 then. I think that's great. I hold all speculation on everything till the end.
I agree with Lamb too, but only if you're going to be open minded about it eventually. You want to play a game where it'll all be tied up at the end- I understand that. A lot of people are like that. Don't spoil the game for yourself. Wait a year and come back to The Silver Lining and play the whole thing at once. I hope by then you'll be happier with the result knowing that there are reasons for writing the plot in the way they have.
(Posted on: March 06, 2011, 12:43:42 AM)
Quote from: Cez on March 05, 2011, 09:30:02 PM
you know it's really bad when Lamb asks you to back off.
(btw, congrats on the baby news, Lamb.)
Which baby news is this? :)
I appreciate the vote of confidence, although I'm not sure how my voice acting in one scene ends up equating to writing ability (hey, I like to think I'm pretty good, granted, but it is a bit of apples and oranges!).
But yes, you've expressed your dislike of our game and team numerous times--and if you want to, fine, but understand the kind of reception that's going to end up getting here, the forums of the company that made the game.
As for our PR efforts--well, yes. Obviously. Go work on something for eight years and be within spitting distance of finishing it and see how much you enjoy it when someone tells you no, you can't do that. Are you going to fight? Hell yes. Are you going to try and get support from your friends? Hell yes. Are you going to do everything you can to make your dream happen? HELL YES.
Re: your questions--and I have to agree, I don't think any answer we offer will satisfy you, regardless--here goes. The ones I can answer, because doing so doesn't get into plot points yet to be revealed:
- Alex's hair is still spikey because that's what the model for him looks like. On the list of priorities, making a new model for a character who's in a coma for most of the game is not high. If you've never made a game (and you've never said you have, so I have to assume it's the case), it's going to be difficult at best for any of us to help you understand how much work goes in, how much learning curve there is for a team that started off not knowing at all how to make one, and how things need to be prioritized. This? Isn't a priority.
- Holding hands: some people find it creepy. I get why. But we don't. We added it as what we considered a nice touch. Maybe the family didn't want the twins to feel alone, whatever it is that's happened to them, wherever it is they are mentally, and thought that simple touch would help. Your mileage may vary.
- Rosella's wedding is in the Green Isles: Because we wanted to set the game there, and this event was a good way to bring fans back into the world of King's Quest. Plus, tragedy striking at a big happy event is more interesting. As for in-game logic, people have their weddings in all kinds of places, all over the world, and it often makes no sense to anyone but them. Or even anyone but the bride! It's not completely unreasonable for Rosella to be married at her brother's very lovely home, and we wanted to use the Green Isles for the FAN game because it's a FAN favorite location. (Incidentally, while I won't argue some things we retcon or at least put new twists on old information for, adding new locations to the Isles is not something I would consider a retcon. The islands were obviously much larger than the few screens we saw in KQ6.)
I think that's all the questions I can answer from your original post. But no, you're not likely to be satisfied with any of our answers, and if you're only here to rant about what you dislike about the game and are not willing to listen whatsoever to our comments and replies, or those of our fans who try to reply on our behalf, I don't think you're going to find this go-round in the forums any more satisfying than the last go-round before you asked to have your account deleted.
Also, I'm glad I got to be Han Solo in your breakdown of the epic battle, there, Haids. ;)
Oh, and also, babies? Yay babies!
Quote from: KatieHal on March 05, 2011, 10:11:07 PM
I think that's all the questions I can answer from your original post. But no, you're not likely to be satisfied with any of our answers, and if you're only here to rant about what you dislike about the game and are not willing to listen whatsoever to our comments and replies, or those of our fans who try to reply on our behalf, I don't think you're going to find this go-round in the forums any more satisfying than the last go-round before you asked to have your account deleted.
Oh- if this is the case then he's only a troll, so I'll just ignore this thread :) Thanks for the heads up, Shorty! <3
Quote from: Cez on March 05, 2011, 09:30:02 PM
you know it's really bad when Lamb asks you to back off.
(btw, congrats on the baby news, Lamb.)
Lol...and thanks!
The baby news is that my wife and I just found out we're pregnant with our first. ;)
Oh, yay! Congrats indeed! :)
My brother and his wife just had their first...baby Aiden is quite adorable!
Quote from: KatieHal on March 05, 2011, 11:13:51 PM
Oh, yay! Congrats indeed! :)
My brother and his wife just had their first...baby Aiden is quite adorable!
Yes, Aiden is quite cute...we all found out when he was born! Congrats Lamb...keep us updated with pictures! :)
And Perceval, you make it sound like we didn't know you were DMD. Trust me, we got an email as soon as you registered from the team saying you were back, so it's not like you pulled the wool over our eyes at all. What I wonder is why you decided to come back at all when you asked to have your account deleted. If you weren't happy, why would you continue to hang around.
Yes, Ark, a troll. If his posts are going to upset you, either just skim them...or skip all together when you see he's posted. I'm sorry that one person ranting about the game is putting the damper on others who are actually enjoying and loving how it is turning out. :hug:
Quote from: Lambonius on March 05, 2011, 11:12:03 PM
Quote from: Cez on March 05, 2011, 09:30:02 PM
you know it's really bad when Lamb asks you to back off.
(btw, congrats on the baby news, Lamb.)
Lol...and thanks!
The baby news is that my wife and I just found out we're pregnant with our first. ;)
Congrads Lamb :) That's totally great news ^^ When is she expected?
Quote from: koko_99_2001 on March 06, 2011, 12:05:40 AM
Yes, Ark, a troll. If his posts are going to upset you, either just skim them...or skip all together when you see he's posted. I'm sorry that one person ranting about the game is putting the damper on others who are actually enjoying and loving how it is turning out. :hug:
Yeah- I intend on T.T I don't like trolling. I can understand having a negative opinion on something, but taking it to the point where discussion is pointless and all they want to do is make you feel bad? Urgh. I assume you guys are keeping an eye on him though so I'll leave it :(
oh, man, lamb, your signature image LOL I shouldn't be laughing at it, but LOL
Quote from: Cez on March 06, 2011, 12:25:26 AM
oh, man, lamb, your signature image LOL I shouldn't be laughing at it, but LOL
AH GOOD LORD I JUST NOTICED IT YOUR GONNA HAUNT ME FOREVAH WITH THIS!! *DIES*
Hahahahaha... :suffer:
Early November, probably. It's very early yet--we'll know more in the coming weeks.
Congrats on your little stranger, Lambonius. :) It's always good news to hear there will be a new Quester in the world!
As for the main contents of this thread...eh, I think of it this way: I don't like pecans. I don't eat pecans. I don't discuss pecans. Generally I don't think about pecans. I tend to shy away from them at all costs. So why should I waste my time and everyone else's by going on and on about something I dislike? Something to consider...
Quote from: KatieHal on March 05, 2011, 10:11:07 PM
Also, I'm glad I got to be Han Solo in your breakdown of the epic battle, there, Haids. ;)
The coolest character for one of the coolest forumers/team members/humans. ;D
Quote from: Lambonius on March 06, 2011, 12:31:41 AM
Hahahahaha... :suffer:
Early November, probably. It's very early yet--we'll know more in the coming weeks.
Do you know if its a boy or girl yet?
QuoteAnd Perceval, you make it sound like we didn't know you were DMD. Trust me, we got an email as soon as you registered from the team saying you were back, so it's not like you pulled the wool over our eyes at all. What I wonder is why you decided to come back at all when you asked to have your account deleted. If you weren't happy, why would you continue to hang around.
I didn't know it was DMD, but I'm not at all surprised.
QuoteI don't like pecans. I don't eat pecans. I don't discuss pecans. Generally I don't think about pecans. I tend to shy away from them at all costs. So why should I waste my time and everyone else's by going on and on about something I dislike? Something to consider...
I was gonna say something like that, but not with pecans (because they are amazing) and it was gonna be the opposite, where I was bitching about how much I hate them.
too late now, I just explained my masterplan.
Quote from: Haids1987 on March 06, 2011, 01:47:11 AM
As for the main contents of this thread...eh, I think of it this way: I don't like pecans. I don't eat pecans. I don't discuss pecans. Generally I don't think about pecans. I tend to shy away from them at all costs. So why should I waste my time and everyone else's by going on and on about something I dislike? Something to consider...
But I loooooooove pecans*! ..and arguing? You wanna fight about it? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30GD25un0XQ) :P
*: caveat lector, in pecan pie :P ...so, technically, I just like pecan pie... *needs to make himself some of that* :P
Quote from: Arkillian on March 06, 2011, 02:02:34 AM
Quote from: Lambonius on March 06, 2011, 12:31:41 AM
Hahahahaha... :suffer:
Early November, probably. It's very early yet--we'll know more in the coming weeks.
Do you know if its a boy or girl yet?
No. You typically can't find that out until several months into it. :)
Quote from: Lambonius on March 05, 2011, 11:12:03 PM
Quote from: Cez on March 05, 2011, 09:30:02 PM
you know it's really bad when Lamb asks you to back off.
(btw, congrats on the baby news, Lamb.)
Lol...and thanks!
The baby news is that my wife and I just found out we're pregnant with our first. ;)
Congratulations! Kids are LOTS of work, but it's SO worth it! :D
Quote from: atec123 on March 06, 2011, 06:52:34 AM
QuoteAnd Perceval, you make it sound like we didn't know you were DMD. Trust me, we got an email as soon as you registered from the team saying you were back, so it's not like you pulled the wool over our eyes at all. What I wonder is why you decided to come back at all when you asked to have your account deleted. If you weren't happy, why would you continue to hang around.
I didn't know it was DMD, but I'm not at all surprised.
QuoteI don't like pecans. I don't eat pecans. I don't discuss pecans. Generally I don't think about pecans. I tend to shy away from them at all costs. So why should I waste my time and everyone else's by going on and on about something I dislike? Something to consider...
I was gonna say something like that, but not with pecans (because they are amazing) and it was gonna be the opposite, where I was b****ing about how much I hate them.
too late now, I just explained my masterplan.
Don't presume you know all about me, saying, "you're not surprised" that it's me. I've been here since 2003 and for the longest time, I did indeed support this project and this game, for years actually. It's only recently, in the past year or so, that I've turned against it. I've been called in this thread a "troll", and apparently, I'm regarded as nothing more than a troll on this forum for speaking my mind. I gained this reputation for but a few threads--this one, thread titled reinventing the wheel, and a thread asking about plot holes.
That's three threads in a posting history which spans probably dozens of more threads and eight years. Do not presume I'm simply a "troll", or what have you. I don't spam this forum. I don't harass and harangue it's members. I post threads in other parts of the forum, on other topics, which are positive and which others seem to appreciate. It is unfair to be branded a troll for having a dissenting opinion, or for pointing out flaws I see.
It's not the fact that you express a dissenting opinion. Lots of people do that. It's the WAY you express it. Sometimes, it just seems like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. :-\ I know you're passionate about KQ and Sierra, and I appreciate that. So are a lot of other people on the forums. It's hard to have a rational discussion when people attack/get defensive, though.
More like the way he continues to express it over and over and over again in discussions that simply never go anywhere. So, why bother to discuss in the first place if there's no place to change your mind. The guy keeps saying that I can never admit when I'm wrong, but he's obviously never read me before when Ive said I know a lot of the TSL writing could be much better.
Coming up with ridiculous arguments to things that you obviously have no idea how they work makes you a troll. The whole VGA thing, I'm sorry, man, you just were making a fool out of yourself, because in 92 the things that you said couldn't be possible, were possible (changes to sprites through animations was possible, so you could essentially either do a darkening of Alex's clothes, or just have water drops dripping from him, which would have been very visible) --How do you think Gabriel Knight takes off his t-shirt in GK1? Doable, yes it was doable. Worthy, not so much. But At least have the decency to let game development to the people who have been working hands on this for much longer than you have (which I believe amounts exactly to nothing). Instead, just to win the argument, you came up with a dumb argument of technological limitation when there was no limitation to the example quoted. I drew the parallel to King's Quest 6, but I was just really drawing a parallel to game development. If you expect things in gaming development to be Pixar quality, especially from a fan group working for free, you are a troll.
So if you don't like being labeled as a troll, stop trolling. Even in the circles where TSL isn't really popular, people have told you to drop it already. Again, that's when you should realize you are taking it a bit too far. If you cannot see that, then you have a problem, and if people continue to report you as a troll, then we'll go ahead and put a ban on you. You have been warned.
QuoteDon't presume you know all about me, saying, "you're not surprised" that it's me. I've been here since 2003 and for the longest time, I did indeed support this project and this game, for years actually. It's only recently, in the past year or so, that I've turned against it.
I had read enough of your stuff so that when I read this thread, in my mind I thought "that really seems like stuff DMD would have written. maybe that's him?"
Quote from: Cez on March 06, 2011, 11:12:04 AM
More like the way he continues to express it over and over and over again in discussions that simply never go anywhere. So, why bother to discuss in the first place if there's no place to change your mind. The guy keeps saying that I can never admit when I'm wrong, but he's obviously never read me before when Ive said I know a lot of the TSL writing could be much better.
Coming up with ridiculous arguments to things that you obviously have no idea how they work makes you a troll. The whole VGA thing, I'm sorry, man, you just were making a fool out of yourself, because in 92 the things that you said couldn't be possible, were possible (changes to sprites through animations was possible, so you could essentially either do a darkening of Alex's clothes, or just have water drops dripping from him, which would have been very visible) --How do you think Gabriel Knight takes off his t-shirt in GK1? Doable, yes it was doable. Worthy, not so much. But At least have the decency to let game development to the people who have been working hands on this for much longer than you have (which I believe amounts exactly to nothing). Instead, just to win the argument, you came up with a dumb argument that VGA was just starting back then (no, it had started a couple of years back when they did KQ5 -and that's one I'm sure you knew, by the time they were doing KQ6, they were deep into it).
So if you don't like being labeled as a troll, stop trolling. Even in the circles where TSL isn't really popular, people have told you to drop it already. Again, that's when you should realize you are taking it a bit too far. If you cannot see that, then you have a problem, and if people continue to report you as a troll, then we'll go ahead and put a ban on you. You have been warned.
I said it was in it's infancy. Not brand new, but it was still something radical in 1991 given that KQ5 had just come out the year before. And new things were being developed and explored all the time. The engine for KQ5 was SCI1, it's own version. And then that was further developed into SCI1.1 which was utilized on a number of games in 1992, including KQ6, and included all sorts of things like scaling. As far as the water thing and GK1, GK1 came out a year later in '93. A year's time could mean a lot to Sierra games. Look at the difference between the 1992 and 1993 versions of KQ6 for example, or between the 1990 and 1991 versions of KQ5.
Even previous designers at Sierra stated KQ was always a testing ground for new technology. For example, KQ7 was a testing ground for SCI2, which is why the graphics are pretty choppy compared to SQ6 which came out just a year later--because other games would refine what KQ built (technologically).
A lot of this technology, stuff that's taken for granted today, like lipsynching for example, was revolutionary then. Sierra bought a company who specialized in lip-synching just to be able to make the games that much more realistic. By the '90s, technology was becoming one of the most important aspects of Sierra game design--Something which guys like the Two Guys from Andromeda loathed (they didn't even want point and click in SQ4).
And yeah, I may not have game making experience
YET, but I do know quite a bit about gaming history and the various achievements as it's a personal interest of mine.
(Posted on: March 06, 2011, 02:28:07 PM)
Quote from: atec123 on March 06, 2011, 11:18:20 AM
QuoteDon't presume you know all about me, saying, "you're not surprised" that it's me. I've been here since 2003 and for the longest time, I did indeed support this project and this game, for years actually. It's only recently, in the past year or so, that I've turned against it.
I had read enough of your stuff so that when I read this thread, in my mind I thought "that really seems like stuff DMD would have written. maybe that's him?"
It's not like I ever made it a secret who I was. I never denied being DMD, did I?
QuoteAs far as the water thing and GK1, GK1 came out a year later in '93. A year's time could mean a lot to Sierra games.
I'm not familiar with how the engine works specifically, but if in KQ5 Graham can put on a cloak and shrink into the distance when he walks further away, if the engine supports changes in perspective such as the top-down scene where you navigate the mountain just before being taken by the giant Roc, and the extreme long shot of the town where Graham is just a few pixels high, and if Graham actually turns into several different creatures at the end of the game, I really can't see why they wouldn't be able to make his clothes wet.
Quote from: darthkiwi on March 06, 2011, 12:56:02 PM
QuoteAs far as the water thing and GK1, GK1 came out a year later in '93. A year's time could mean a lot to Sierra games.
I'm not familiar with how the engine works specifically, but if in KQ5 Graham can put on a cloak and shrink into the distance when he walks further away, if the engine supports changes in perspective such as the top-down scene where you navigate the mountain just before being taken by the giant Roc, and the extreme long shot of the town where Graham is just a few pixels high, and if Graham actually turns into several different creatures at the end of the game, I really can't see why they wouldn't be able to make his clothes wet.
I don't think the VGA perspective shrinking/growing in KQ5 is true scaling though. It looks to me like they actually drew separate sprites at different sizes and then linked them together to form a "scaling" animation. In KQ6, Alex's sprite actually physically shrinks in size--it's a subtle difference but an important one. :)
Quote from: Delling on March 06, 2011, 08:31:24 AM
But I loooooooove pecans*! ..and arguing? You wanna fight about it? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30GD25un0XQ) :P
Gah ha ha! Patty Banager, Caddy Manager for the win! :rofl:
Quote from: Lambonius on March 06, 2011, 12:58:01 PM
Quote from: darthkiwi on March 06, 2011, 12:56:02 PM
QuoteAs far as the water thing and GK1, GK1 came out a year later in '93. A year's time could mean a lot to Sierra games.
I'm not familiar with how the engine works specifically, but if in KQ5 Graham can put on a cloak and shrink into the distance when he walks further away, if the engine supports changes in perspective such as the top-down scene where you navigate the mountain just before being taken by the giant Roc, and the extreme long shot of the town where Graham is just a few pixels high, and if Graham actually turns into several different creatures at the end of the game, I really can't see why they wouldn't be able to make his clothes wet.
I don't think the VGA perspective shrinking/growing in KQ5 is true scaling though. It looks to me like they actually drew separate sprites at different sizes and then linked them together to form a "scaling" animation. In KQ6, Alex's sprite actually physically shrinks in size--it's a subtle difference but an important one. :)
You have it exactly correct. SCI1.1 introduced true scaling, which added a subtle but good dose of realism to the animation. Each version of SCI added more and more.
My memory is a bit foggy about it, but if I recall correctly, Alexander gets ripped in half by the minotaur with blood and bones showing, and also turns into a beast, which shows you right there getting wet was very easily doable.
Quote from: Cez on March 06, 2011, 02:10:50 PM
My memory is a bit foggy about it, but if I recall correctly, Alexander gets ripped in half by the minotaur with blood and bones showing, and also turns into a beast, which shows you right there getting wet was very easily doable.
(http://buffalodave.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/sad-face.jpg)
Well that... is brutal
QuoteIt's not like I ever made it a secret who I was. I never denied being DMD, did I?
I never said you did. I guess I just didn't make the connection until after I posted. no matter. carry on.
I don't know about getting ripped in half (ew), but I do remember that he turns into a beast if you wait too long after meeting Beast.
Thanks for pointing out that Graham's scaling isn't actual scaling - it's an interesting point I hadn't noticed.
Even so, my point still stands: they could have made a character get wet after a swim with a bit of work.
I think this is getting away from the main topic, but I believe the original point was that, in game design, some things get done and some don't due to time restraints and lack of resources. Graham could have been given an "in water" sprite, a "drying off" sprite, a "nearly dry" sprite and the normal Graham sprite. He could have been given a different costume from his adventurer's gear and the cloak for some arbitrary reason. These things didn't happen because they weren't worth the time and effort needed to implement them.
So too with Alexander's hair. I don't want to sound like one of those "Everyone says you're wrong so you're wrong" people - that's terribly flawed logic - but you are the only person to complain about his hair. I'm not going to suggest that he uses hair gel or magic to keep his hair like that - I'm just going to suggest that, for this game, this is what his hair looks like. In the same way that Graham always wore his adventurer's cap, that Gwydion never changed out of his slave's clothes, and that Valanice's and Rosella's hair remained perfect in KQ7, so too does Alexander's hair stay like that in TSL. It's just a part of his character: we all accept that in this game, this is what his hair looks like. I mean, everyone seems to be fine with talking guard dogs, American accents, and the use of the English language in the game, so singling out spiky hair seems odd.
I mean, think about that for a moment. In order for the English language to develop at all, you'd need 1) a race of people speaking Anglo-Saxon 2) an invasion of those people by another society speaking Medieval French and 3) enough time and the right cultural and social conditions for the two to meld in precisely the same way as English has in our timeline plus 4) work to be done on the language by playwrights, writers of dictionaries, poets and other scholars who introduced or invented new words and turns of phrase. (Without Shakespeare you wouldn't say "In my mind's eye", "Into thin air" or "the milk of human kindness", for example.) Realistically speaking, there is no way that the KQ characters could possibly be speaking the English of the late 20th/early 21st century.
My point is, any game which is not a documentary of an actual time and place in (preferably recent) human history will take some things for granted. In most fantasy games, it's that these varied, unearthly people speak English just like us. In TSL, it's that Alexander has spiky hair. Seriously, I don't see why it's such a big deal. I mean, it just seems like the kind of thing that would be done in almost any game without anyone thinking about it, either the developers or audience. It just doesn't seem like a very important thing to me.
Well it does seem odd that Alex is the only member of the royal family whose look has been drastically changed for this game and this game alone. ;) I always assumed it was because the designers were manga nerds and that it was an homage to anime.
Quote from: Lambonius on March 06, 2011, 04:53:30 PM
Well it does seem odd that Alex is the only member of the royal family whose look has been drastically changed for this game and this game alone. ;) I always assumed it was because the designers were manga nerds and that it was an homage to anime.
Well, everyone has a classic hair style. Alexander's is the most date-able hair style. They were probably just modernizing it a bit. Everyone else's hair styles are still fashionable for royalty.
Lol, depends on how you classify drastic. We had Rosella grow out her bangs, and let me tell you, as a lady who's had them and not had them, growing out your bangs takes serious commitment. They reach that irritating length when they're too long to wear in front of your face but too short to push behind your ears and man is it tempting to just cut those suckers short again! ;)
Quote from: KatieHal on March 06, 2011, 05:12:11 PM
Lol, depends on how you classify drastic. We had Rosella grow out her bangs, and let me tell you, as a lady who's had them and not had them, growing out your bangs takes serious commitment. They reach that irritating length when they're too long to wear in front of your face but too short to push behind your ears and man is it tempting to just cut those suckers short again! ;)
I did that in hockey season. BOY was it a pain in the ass! I was a goalie, and I had to use an Alice band to keep my fringe back. Such a bad idea. IT was worth it for me though cause it meant that my mother wasn't cutting it. MY mother use to cut my fringe so short :( I got teased at school for it T.T I get mine done by the hair dresser now. She's not allowed to touch my hair XD My hair dresser does it for free :) (Mostly cause I get cut and colours from her >.> I spend anywhere between $100 to $200 at a time every 3 months with her. It's the only thing that makes my hair sane though XD )
Truth be told, while I'm not a fan of Alex's bangs, it isn't that much worse than Graham's mullet. I mean yes, his mullet fits because they had those hairstyles even in the medieval ages, but it's obvious his hair is a very early '90s sort of style to us.
Quote from: KatieHal on March 06, 2011, 05:12:11 PM
let me tell you, as a lady who's had them and not had them, growing out your bangs takes serious commitment. They reach that irritating length when they're too long to wear in front of your face but too short to push behind your ears and man is it tempting to just cut those suckers short again! ;)
Gah ha ha! Most girls of the 80's/90's can definitely relate. The last time I had bangs I think I was in seventh grade, and I finally said, "NEVER AGAIN!" It's dangerous, man! You have to decide if you're TRULY ready to have 'em in your face, and to deal with having to pin them back when they bug you. ::)
What we chicas do for our hair!
My strategy is simply to do nothing. It's like my hairstyle is constantly on shuffle!
Quote from: kindofdoon on March 06, 2011, 10:37:55 PM
My strategy is simply to do nothing. It's like my hairstyle is constantly on shuffle!
I do that, but my hair generally looks pretty similar every day. I whip my hair back and forth every morning :P
Quote from: atec123 on March 07, 2011, 06:10:58 AM
Quote from: kindofdoon on March 06, 2011, 10:37:55 PM
My strategy is simply to do nothing. It's like my hairstyle is constantly on shuffle!
I do that, but my hair generally looks pretty similar every day. I whip my hair back and forth every morning :P
(http://images2.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/3167917/Whip-my-hair-back-and-forth-In-my-day-it-was-called-head-banging.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=Annoying-Old-Man)
(Posted on: March 07, 2011, 09:19:22 AM)
((omg I'm so old XD ))
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100516054256/uncyclopedia/images/a/a4/Beavis_%26_Butthead_-_Head_Banging.gif)
Quote from: Arkillian on March 07, 2011, 06:20:34 AM
Quote from: atec123 on March 07, 2011, 06:10:58 AM
Quote from: kindofdoon on March 06, 2011, 10:37:55 PM
My strategy is simply to do nothing. It's like my hairstyle is constantly on shuffle!
I do that, but my hair generally looks pretty similar every day. I whip my hair back and forth every morning :P
(http://images2.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/3167917/Whip-my-hair-back-and-forth-In-my-day-it-was-called-head-banging.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=Annoying-Old-Man)
(Posted on: March 07, 2011, 09:19:22 AM)
((omg I'm so old XD ))
lol yeah I prefer to call it whiping my hair back and forth, it makes people lol.
Quote from: Sir Perceval of Daventry on March 07, 2011, 06:41:44 AM
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100516054256/uncyclopedia/images/a/a4/Beavis_%26_Butthead_-_Head_Banging.gif)
that gives me a headache after like 10 seconds.
Some people don't like anything :P
The only thing that's ever really disappointed me was Saladin's model. I always imagined him larger than he is and his voice a bit more bold. I also think Jollo's "clownness" went 12 out of 10 ;D
Do I care? Not really. It's a fantastic rebooted game with a lot of bold moves for development. And I happen to like playing it.