Dear Phoenix Studios,
PLEASE. Please make a GK4. You don't even need the rights, because it's pretty obvious that Gabe will NOT be the next Shattenjager. In GK1, Wolfgang mentions his *3* quests; it gives the player the impression that Shattenjager's only have 3 quests. Gabe has already had 3 quests.
Maybe it's just me, but it's obvious that 1 night stand with Grace was the conception of the next Shattenjager. I think with some creative writing, you don't have to use the word "shattenjager" or any other trademarked words. Just some strategic references.
I've been thinking too much about this. Please make this happen. And could you make the next Shattenjager a girl? It would be perfect poetic justice for Gabe.
~Erin
If anyone ever does make a GK4, hopefully it won't be this (http://www.examiner.com/pc-game-in-national/5-reasons-activision-should-revive-gabriel-knight-as-a-first-person-shooter). :X
WOW. Who would think that would be a good idea???
Quote from: snabbott on March 16, 2011, 07:58:24 AM
If anyone ever does make a GK4, hopefully it won't be this (http://www.examiner.com/pc-game-in-national/5-reasons-activision-should-revive-gabriel-knight-as-a-first-person-shooter). :X
I was expecting one of the reasons to be "Online Multiplayer". I am actually shocked that someone was sincere about that. You're emoticon says it all, sir. :P
Quote from: theduramater on March 16, 2011, 08:41:35 AM
WOW. Who would think that would be a good idea???
Bobby Kotick?
3 quests and no more? Um didn't you know Jane Jensen's original plan was to send Gabriel after ghosts in GK4?
Besides that what kind of a hero would stand aside when supernatural monsters attack during the time they await for his son to grow up?
It will be a long time before his son is old enough to go through the ritual.
Plus that Gabriel doesn't have *any* kids so far.
Thanks for the support, Erin! It would be awesome, obviously, but of course Activision owns the GK IP right now, and we aren't planning on making more free fangames after TSL is completed. But hey, if the pipe dream ever comes true, you can be sure we'd be singing it from the rooftops!
Also, its interesting to note that Jane Jensen cut references to the "three life quests" in the novelization for GK1. So she may have actually been retconning her story as she went.
But if not, its also worth noting that the "last life quest", may involve the death of the Schattenjager. In other words there may be minor lesser quests. But the life quests are three quests thoughout a Schattenjagers life that are life changing, the third and and final 'life quest' leads to the death of the Schattenager. One will notice looking at the history of past Shadow Hunters, that most do seem to be killed on their 'last quest'.
Gabriel certainly hasn't been on the quest that kills him, yet!
Although on the other hand, dieing in the midst of the quest/dieing young could just be a product of the Tetelo curse.
What about the other two? One may be related to becoming a Schattenjager. The quest that leads a person to going through the ritual?
The second? The Schattenager unlocks his supernatural and psychic powers? (this was a major topic discussed in GK3)
Quote from: KatieHal on March 18, 2011, 09:07:29 AM
Plus that Gabriel doesn't have *any* kids so far.
How do we know? He's apparently good at getting to the point where he could sire a kid in his relationships with women, while being terrible at maintaining long-term relationships with women (by the way, I always suspected there was some Schattenjager magic behind that, considering that his father, grandfather, and grand-uncle were women-magnets as well). The mother might even be the woman Grace mentions at the beginning of GK1 (and it would explain why that woman wants to talk to Gabe).
Okay--he doesn't have any kids that we know of yet, then. :)
I might mention here that the notes in the game subtitle-text file in GK3 (which can be dumped as a text document if you bring up the game command line) explicitly mention that [spoiler]Grace becomes pregnant in GK3 after her sexual encounter with Gabriel.[/spoiler]
Really? I am curious how that comes up in the context of GK3 (even as something that presumably was cut, I guess?), considering how soon after that the game ends.
Certainly that's one possible outcome, though! But as it (that statement/fact) wasn't actually IN the final game, I wouldn't consider it something definite.
[spoiler]When Emilio (AKA the Wandering Jew) says goodbye to Grace in the ending cutscene of GK3, he tells her as he's leaving, "Good-bye, dear one. You must take very good care of yourself now." The game text file contains the script notation (probably meant for the voice actor) that his tone is "gentle, referring to her pregnancy."
Or, if you want to see the actual text from the game resources, which I dumped long ago:
48
0,SPEAKER,EMILIO
0,CAPTION,To the Master. (GENTLE, REFERRING TO HER PREGNANCY)Good-bye, dear one. You must take very good care of yourself now.
89,DIALOGUECUE[/spoiler]
That's really interesting, funny that it can only be found by text dumping the script as there's no other reference to it at all. So it wasn't "technically" cut, it just isn't referenced directly in the game.
Quote from: snabbott on March 16, 2011, 07:58:24 AM
If anyone ever does make a GK4, hopefully it won't be this (http://www.examiner.com/pc-game-in-national/5-reasons-activision-should-revive-gabriel-knight-as-a-first-person-shooter). :X
There ya go. A little over time, but I added my two cents (http://www.examiner.com/pc-game-in-national/5-reasons-activision-should-revive-gabriel-knight-as-a-first-person-shooter#comment-14731571) anyway :suffer:.
LMAO@ Rudy's reply. Nicely done, sir.
But... but... He really did work at Sierra - see? ::)
I don't even like the GK series and yet that article is so wrong it seems like upright trolling.
True, he has worked there--he's done some reviews for TSL on examiner as well, actually. I don't know how much a Network Technician does in relation to game design, however....
I just read the article today. After having recently completed both 1 and 2 I was almost literally suppressing the urge to gag. Gabriel Knight as an FPS? ARE YOU INSANE?! Although the guy does need to get his facts straight; in the comments he mentions that portal is an FPS but not in the traditional sense. I disagree. I say portal is not an FPS at all. I'd say it's an FPP. First Person Puzzler. Because there's no killing going on. The only thing you can shoot is a rather non-lethal set of portals. Furthermore, how could he EVER think that Gabriel Knight as an FPS could possibly be a good idea? I dare say that he's been taken over by Tetelo.
Quote from: dark-daventry on March 24, 2011, 11:34:21 PM
The only thing you can shoot is a rather non-lethal set of portals.
They can be lethal to *you* if misused. :P Besides, there's plenty of attempted killing going on.
It's kinda funny because I really like the Deus Ex games (am REALLY looking forward to the new one of those and Thief 4, both awesome series) but I don't get his comparison from Gabriel Knight to Deus Ex at all. The stars of the Deus Ex games are bionic killing machines, they're nothing like Gabriel at all.
Quote from: wilco64256 on March 25, 2011, 09:02:27 AM
It's kinda funny because I really like the Deus Ex games (am REALLY looking forward to the new one of those and Thief 4, both awesome series) but I don't get his comparison from Gabriel Knight to Deus Ex at all. The stars of the Deus Ex games are bionic killing machines, they're nothing like Gabriel at all.
Wait, so you're telling me Gabriel's NOT an Endodroid from the future?! CRAP!
Well, I can *kind* of see where he's coming from-- Wait, no! Stay back, don't kill me!
In all seriousness, a first person perspective might afford a deeper connection with the character. In a third-person game, you tend to sympathise with the character, ie. you understand what they're going through but don't completely identify with them because they're "out there", not "in here". In a FP game, you and the character inhabit the same space so you tend to empathise, ie. rather than understanding the character, you literally put yourself in their shoes and experience what they experiene. If Gabriel gets his head smashed apart in GK1, it's Gabriel who's been killed; if Gordon Freeman is wallopped to death in HL2, it's *me* who's been killed.
Plus, I've always thought that the FP perspective lends itself better to feelings of wonder, sublimity and threat. Take this shot from the Cradle level in Thief 3:
(http://guidesmedia.ign.com/guides/15244/image/cradle-012.jpg)
The building looms over you; you get a sense of insignificance. As you continue to explore the cradle, you peer through corridor after corridor and look in room after room, constantly aware of your limited perception: what if someone is sneaking up behind you? What's beyond this door? Is that murky shape ahead a dummy, or a terrifying enemy?
Compare that with these shots of Schloss Ritter in Gabriel Knight 1:
(http://www.mrbillsadventureland.com/reviews/g-h/gkR/chapel1.jpg)
(http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/9283/gkschloss.jpg)
Both shots are of extremely impressive scenes: the great hall of the castle, and the beautiful chapel with bright, stunning stained glass windows and tapestries. The thing is, although these screens are beautiful, I don't think they quite capture the majesty and age of the castle, simply because they have to be drawn to fit into a particular screen size, and in such a way that most of the screen has to be filled with empty space for Gabriel to walk in. This means that the focus of the great hall screen, for example, is on the floor; there's a suggestion of grandeur in the windows letting light in at the centre, but if this were first person you'd be able to walk around an impressive hall which would hopefully tower above you into darkness. As it is, we're left with the impression that this room is about as high as every other room in the game, which robs the scene of some of its majesty. Furthermore, that sense of limited perception you have in Thief is gone here: instead of seeing a small bit of the whole structure through your eyes, you get the whole thing laid out neatly in front of you. This doesn't lend itself well to wonder, since if everything is neatly contained you don't get that sense of "This thing is TALL!" which you get with the cradle, helped by the fact that Garrett really has to crane his neck to see the whole structure: it's greater than he is in an immediate, physical sense.
Of course, I'm speaking in very general terms. The Schloss may not be particularly impressive in that picture, but when Gabriel arrives at the castle we're given this shot:
(http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/15597/457274-schloss_super.gif)
which makes it a damn sight more impressive.
My point is, there are certain aspects of the GK games - the sense of discovery, mystery, feeling threatened, wonder and awe at buildings, structures and setpieces, the limitation of your own viewpoint in a much wider, more dangerous world - which might suit themselves to the first-person perspective. I'm not saying that GK1-3 would have been better if they were first-person, but if someone makes a reboot and makes it first-person then I'll certainly be interested to see what they do with it.
I do have one significant problem with the FP perspective for GK, though, and that's Gabriel himself. While I love Gabriel (in the way you love a completely un-politically-correct but extremely outspoken uncle), I don't feel that I could ever be him. He's bold, brash, misogynistic, insulting, and uses people for his own ends. True, by the end of GK1 he's come a long way, but he's still very much not me: when I played GK1 I felt that I was an external force controlling him and that Gabriel himself was the main character, not so much due to the third-person perspective but because he was so unlike me.
So, in conclusion, I also don't think it would work - but if someone gave it a shot I wouldn't pounce on the "Heresy!" wagon. There are a number of things in its favour.
Just... you know, the shooting would be a bit odd. There should probably be no shooting. At all.
Yeah - I think it's more the "shooter" part that upsets people than the "first-person" part.
No, actually :)
If GK had been a FP game, I would not care a damn about Gabriel. What I like about 3rd person games is how I get to know the character. I don't want to "be" Gabriel, I want to help him. That's how I better relate to the characters.
In the Tex Murphy FMV games, I felt as if everytime Tex came on a cutscene, it was a character that used to pop in every once in a while (because of all the FP gameplay). I'd lose that connection with him. It's the reason why I never got into games like Myst, I just couldn't feel the connection to the character.
Hmmm... interesting point. Personally, I initially had trouble getting into Myst because I couldn't figure out what I was supposed to be doing. :-\
It seems like there are a lot of people who want games where the character is just a shell that you can "be" and a lot of other people who want the character to have an actual personality and backstory.
I suppose it would be weird playing GK as first person - for someone trying to "be" the character, all of Gabriel's dialogue would probably break the immersion.
Just Adventure did reviews for the Thief series, at least Thief Gold (http://www.justadventure.com/reviews/Thief/Thief_Gold.shtm). They considered them to be just as immersive as any adventure game of the time!.
...and Garrett is one of the most interesting characters in gaming, IMO... I found him more interesting than Gabriel, loved his wit and dialogue. You get into his head, and are given his own monologue.
Alot different than say Gordon Freeman in which he's a silent protagnist. You never really get to know him personally on any level. What little you know about him, is described by other characters.
Well, I think to immerse a player in a third-person game and a first-person game, it takes very different game design. Both can be accomplished, but they need particular approaches.
QuoteI don't want to "be" Gabriel, I want to help him. That's how I better relate to the characters.
I think that's an excellent distinction.
Regarding Thief - when I was playing the Thief games, I always felt that I was the thief sneaking around and stealing things. When I stole things, it was definitely my victory, and when I was presented with terrifying situations (like the Cradle or the incredible Cathedral level in Thief 1), I feared for *my* life, not Garrett's. For me, this is why the games were immersive.
BUT, I still adore Garrett, and he's definitely one of the most wilful and striking characters I've ever had the pleasure of seeing on-screen. I can only surmise that, when I'm playing, I'm playing *myself* with a touch of Garrett, but when there's a cutscene, I'm seeing Garrett, who is barely associated with me (for the simple reason that he is *not* me). I think this applies to the times where Garrett emerges as a character during gameplay, too: if Garrett says something during gameplay then the impression I get is not that I am controlling Garrett who has just said something, but that Garrett is more like a little voice in my ear, and is not necessarily associated with the avatar sneaking around, almost as if he's a disembodied NPC companion.
Of course, these are just my own thoughts and they should be taken with a pinch of salt: I don't really conceive of Garrett as separated from the player avatar, it's just that that's what it feels like even if, story-wise, I know that's not the case.
ITT - I sit around agreeing with a whole bunch of posts and then realize that what we're all describing is the exact definition of what the terms first and third person mean to begin with. A solid game that's done in first-person perspective (like the Thief series, or Deus Ex, also very good IMO) really should make the player feel like they actually are the character. A good third-person perspective game should create a stronger bond between the player and the character they are controlling.
I don't feel disconnected from Garret I feel like I become Garret and inside of his head.
Quote from: Baggins on March 25, 2011, 07:26:28 PM
I don't feel disconnected from Garret I feel like I become Garret and inside of his head.
Right, that's exactly what's supposed to happen, hence the actual term "first person." You
are the character. I don't feel like I AM the character when I play King's Quest the same way I do when I play Thief.
Quote from: wilco64256 on March 25, 2011, 07:10:29 PM
ITT - I sit around agreeing with a whole bunch of posts and then realize that what we're all describing is the exact definition of what the terms first and third person mean to begin with. A solid game that's done in first-person perspective (like the Thief series, or Deus Ex, also very good IMO) really should make the player feel like they actually are the character. A good third-person perspective game should create a stronger bond between the player and the character they are controlling.
Exactly. I like both third and first person games, but those styles work for some games and not for others. First person, in my opinion, just does NOT work for Gabriel Knight. At the same time, third person just would not work for a game like Portal or Goldeneye.
*Wonders what a third person Halo game would seem like*
I've seen comments (either here or on the IA forums) from people who consider the early KQ games more immersive because they can "be" Graham - even though it is a 3rd-person game.
Quote from: wilco64256 on March 25, 2011, 08:01:51 PM
*Wonders what a third person Halo game would seem like*
*brain hurts from trying to imagine such a catastrophe* Third person halo=fail. Then again, I'm strongly opposed to the halo franchise to begin with, so i'm a little biased.
Metroid Prime vs. Metroid: Other M.
They had similarieties, but were also very different. Both fun, but 'prime' was way more immersive.
Other M is the worst Metroid game I have ever played. It was mildly interesting but WAY too short and the plot was just one huge WTF.
Quote from: snabbott on March 25, 2011, 08:02:50 PM
I've seen comments (either here or on the IA forums) from people who consider the early KQ games more immersive because they can "be" Graham - even though it is a 3rd-person game.
I think that largely has to do with the style of the narration. In KQ 1-4, all the narrative text was in second person, describing what "you" saw and did. For example, "You reach into the stump and pull out a bag full of diamonds!" But from KQ5 onward the narration described the main character's actions in third person, separating him/her from the player. "Alexander pulls out his magic map!"
Quote from: wilco64256 on March 25, 2011, 08:35:24 PM
Other M is the worst Metroid game I have ever played. It was mildly interesting but WAY too short and the plot was just one huge WTF.
I haven't played Other M. I liked what little I played of the Prime games, but the style of Other M just turned me off. Maybe Nintendo will put Retro Studios to work on a new Metroid game. Retro studios knows how to make games, I think. Donkey Kong Country returns got good reviews, and the prime games, in my opinion, were great. Honestly, I'd like to see either Retro or Capcom tackle Zelda. Capcom has proven themselves more than worthy of the handheld zelda titles; Minnish Cap was great, and although I've never played them, I've heard only good things about the oracle games. Because of this, I have no qualms seeing Capcom try their hand at a console zelda title... The same goes for Retro studios. I really want to see their take on the Zelda franchise... Off topic, I know... I just had to get that out there though.
I enjoyed Other M, but compared to Prime, it was a disappointment... It had a few parts that were fun, but control scheme was eh... I did like some of the nods back to previous games stories though. But ya, it could have been longer.
At least some of the bosses were actually challenging compared to the prime games.
Actually, I have to say my least favorite metroid game is probably Fusion... I was way too linear, and drag your hand along, more so than Other M (Other M draws alot from Fusion in its story)....
My favorite will always be Super Metroid!, probably followed by the original Metroid.
yeah, I'm not saying FP games don't work. For example, Metroid Prime is indeed a great example of a FP game that works. But then again, I don't care about connecting with the character, because really, I do not care about Samus or whatever dumb story the game had. I just want to play the game and find the secrets.
In games like Uncharted and Tomb Raider, it's nice to have that behind the character camera feel. Mass Effect I think had both options, full FP and behind the character, if I remember correctly. And, if I remember correctly, I always chose the behind the character camera.
With Deadly Shadows, I had to play First Person... Third Person was an abomination for the series (it might work for Splinter Cell, but not Thief)...
Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas, as well as Elder Scrolls 4 have the option to go FP or third person I believe. And doesn't MoE have a first person option too?
The MOE FPS mode is not particularly well done though.
It doesn't even have 'bob and weave' animation, and the views of the weapons are kinda bland. So it doesn't seem realistic. You also can't use the special attack while in 3rd Person mode, the one that does more damage. And targeting is somewhat off.
The only benifit to using it though, is that its somewhat faster to move around I think. But in some places will cause the game to lock up (Dimension of Death).
A good FPS adventure though, I think pulled it off pretty well, was Azriel's Tear! I'm also a big fan of the Journeyman Project series.
Quote from: Baggins on March 25, 2011, 11:00:45 PM
The MOE FPS mode is not particularly well done though.
It doesn't even have 'bob and weave' animation, and the views of the weapons are kinda bland. So it doesn't seem realistic. You also can't use the special attack while in 3rd Person mode, the one that does more damage. And targeting is somewhat off.
The only benifit to using it though, is that its somewhat faster to move around I think. But in some places will cause the game to lock up (Dimension of Death).
A good FPS adventure though, I think pulled it off pretty well, was Azriel's Tear! I'm also a big fan of the Journeyman Project series.
I LOVE The Journeyman Project 3. It's a shame the company closed up before they could finish the fourth game (yea, according to what I've read online, a fourth game was in development).