So the most recent round of Guess That Adventure game led me to this:
Alternatives: Games for Girls and Women (http://books.google.com/books?id=OjIYWtqWxtAC&pg=PA418&lpg=PA418&dq=game+design+workshop+games+for+girls+and+women&source=bl&ots=AGA512_XPQ&sig=H67P_VC63z4ZvVc3lVjLWfq4LRE&hl=en&ei=8pHLTb-pHJC8vQPIm9iZBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Some thoughts
1. I forget whether it was Robert or Jane, but a prominent female designer at Sierra said that one reason why there were more female designers in adventure games than in other genres is that females were more interested in adventure games
2. While unicorns, sparkles, and flowers are very girly, they are no more girly than tales of gangster warfare, child abuse, rape, drugs, kidnapping, and torture (http://www.sequentialtart.com/archive/sept01/ao_0901_rev1.shtml)
3. There are a lot of girl gamers now, and many mainstream games do appeal to many girls, perhaps more so than in the 90s.
4. Is there still a gap which could be filled by more female-oriented games? And what would those female-oriented games be like? I certainly hope they wouldn't all be otome games (not that I mind otome games...)
Quote from: glottal on May 12, 2011, 02:22:05 AM
4. Is there still a gap which could be filled by more female-oriented games? And what would those female-oriented games be like?
Lol...I think TSL fits that gap quite nicely. *evil laugh
I don't think there's as much of a gap now as there once was. If you narrow it down to specific genres, I imagine some would show more disparity than others, and I imagine adventure games would be among the ones with a higher female audience.
I agree that the gap is not as big as it once was ... and I think the gap was filled, not by people aiming for a specifically female audience, as the book was suggesting, but by game designers trying to tap a more mainstream audience, and mainstream audiences have lots of females.
Of course, I think that the book was exaggerating the gap a bit. I was a girl in the 90s, and I had no problem finding computers games that interested me.
I do (seriously) think that TSL works well as a girly game. Of course, I think the KQ games in general were more girl-friendly than average in their time, probably partially because they were all designed by females.
Perhaps it's because I work with kids and am always beating into their brains that "there are no such thing as boy toys and girl toys," but I think that the idea of "boy games" and "girl games" is a little vague. I mean, of course games like Barbie Fashion Designer (http://www.amazon.com/Mattel-16379-Barbie-Fashion-Designer/dp/B00003IEG2) and Crystal's Pony Tale are more geared towards girls, but boys could just as easily play them. I mean, gamers are gamers no matter what their gender. I was discussing video games with my co worker last night and she said that her 8 year-old sister's favorite games are the Halo games, and she kicks everyone's butt at them.
I don't think that gaming is a boy thing or a girl thing. It's an interest and personality thing.
Speaking of, a hilarious one-video LP of Crystal's Pony Tale--warning, LPer is drunk and does swear. BUt that's why it's so funny :)
http://www.youtube.com/user/lucahjin#p/search/0/Vfr-PzzCVf4
Quote from: KatieHal on May 12, 2011, 12:45:12 PM
Speaking of, a hilarious one-video LP of Crystal's Pony Tale--warning, LPer is drunk and does swear. BUt that's why it's so funny :)
http://www.youtube.com/user/lucahjin#p/search/0/Vfr-PzzCVf4
that game looks really trippy.
From what I can tell, it is! I watched a non-drunk LP of it which was also pretty funny by Kikoskia on youtube :)
Bwa ha ha!! ;D That's the game I mentioned in another thread, the one I played when I was a little girl, but couldn't remember the name of it. I actually think Sir Percival found it for me.
Anyway, not as trippy as it seems! I loved it. :smitten:
Quote from: Haids1987 on May 12, 2011, 12:37:55 PM
Perhaps it's because I work with kids and am always beating into their brains that "there are no such thing as boy toys and girl toys," but I think that the idea of "boy games" and "girl games" is a little vague. I mean, of course games like Barbie Fashion Designer (http://www.amazon.com/Mattel-16379-Barbie-Fashion-Designer/dp/B00003IEG2) and Crystal's Pony Tale are more geared towards girls, but boys could just as easily play them.
And probably some boys did play them, but that didn't change the fact that they were oriented towards girls.
Like I said, I never had a problem finding games which interested me (and come to think of it, my female peers back in the 90s didn't seem to have this problem either), but what was annoying is the assumption in many games that the players were boys. Since I play mostly oldies these days, I don't know to what extent this has changed, but it can be grating when game after game has a male protagonist (even if there is no reason why the protagonist HAD to be male), and most of the other characters are male too (are the women in the kitchen or something?) ... and after playing a few games in a row devoid of girliness, I start craving it (though, as I said earlier, girliness encompasses a lot more than the narrow view that media executives imagine).
Come to think of it, that is one thing that I really do like about the old Sierra games. They always have at least a dash of girliness, so I don't get cravings, and there are always plenty of female characters.
I guess I'm just a little confused by what you're trying to convey, no offense intended. Are you frustrated with the fact that there aren't as many games geared towards girls, or are you saying that girl games aren't necessary...? I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, I just want to understand. :)
Quote from: glottal on May 12, 2011, 08:47:02 PM
it can be grating when game after game has a male protagonist (even if there is no reason why the protagonist HAD to be male), and most of the other characters are male too (are the women in the kitchen or something?) ... and after playing a few games in a row devoid of girliness, I start craving it (though, as I said earlier, girliness encompasses a lot more than the narrow view that media executives imagine).
Hmmm. Well, I guess now that you mention it, a male protagonist all the time can be annoying, but you must remember that a lot of the early video games started in Japan, where males are the dominant sex. It wasn't until later that girls started entering the stories as more than the scullery maid or helpless victim, and times
have changed. Lara Croft, Terra, Rayne, Ms. Pac-Man, Tifa, Chun-Li...there are lots of girls in gaming now.
I consider myself a feminist and I can't stand double standards, but I go back to my statement that gamers will play whatever they find interesting, male or female.
Well actually I've been playing mostly Infocom games lately, which are as American as apple pie. And a few of their games did try to be more inclusive of females, but those are a minority.
You are probably confused because I don't have a coherent opinion on this. I'm still in the process of forming an opinion.
I think a large part of the solution is not to make girly games, but to make games which are less MANLY and STRONG and feature people KICKING ASS BECAUSE THEY HAVE SO MANY MUSCLES!!!!
I mean, take this
(http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2010/03/gow-cogs.jpg)
or this
(http://wireninja.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/god_of_war_3.jpg)
or this
(http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/kotaku/2010/01/kane_and_lynch_2_preview.jpg)
They're all clearly aimed at men or boys who, to a certain extent, would like to be those strong, almost super-powered characters. And while girls could still play these games and might well enjoy them, they're still aimed at boys and will therefore attract more attention from men than women. Whereas if we had more games which weren't about muscular, gun-toting ass-kicking male power-fantasies, maybe more girls would be willing to game.
Oh, and this ad campaign is without doubt the worst offender:
(http://www.obviouswinner.com/storage/post-images/your-mom-hates-deadspace-2.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1295469246426)
My dad would probably hate Dead Space 2 too.
If I recall, didn't they get a lot of flak for that ad for DS2?
Interestingly, there was a panel about women in gaming at the first PAX East that Rich & I went to. All women on the panel, and naturally a lot of questions about the images of women in games, feminism, etc. I asked a question about...oh what was the wording...ah! here it is, glad I keep this notebook handy.
"How do you think games can or do or should try to sell successful female characters who aren't oversexualized? Either what qualities they have, or should have, and what are the added challenges to doing so?"
(not my best wording, but you get the idea--someone else asked the first question I had written down while I was waiting in line!)
And the answer I got was total crap that basically boiled down, oh, well, just go ahead and oversexualize it to get a male audience, it's no big deal and it works. Um, thanks, women of the gaming industry, for giving the message that this is impossible and trivial. It was really disappointing, because I don't think that's necessary and I wanted to hear the thoughts & advice of women who should have had a better answer about how to, essentially, market a female character to a male audience without stripping away her femininity or making her a sex object.
Quote from: KatieHal on May 13, 2011, 08:19:45 AM
how to...market a female character to a male audience without stripping away her femininity or making her a sex object.
Impossible.
That's sad, Katie. :(
One very successful female character is Samus Aran from the Metroid games, but I'm not sure if she counts because she's fairly desexualised: she's a powerful character dressed in a metal suit. It's nice to know you're playing a girl but it wouldn't have taken much to make her a male character; in fact, most players of Metroid 1 assumed they were playing a man, and were surprised when the big reveal at the end was that Samus was a woman.
There's actually an excellent video series which has tried to address this question:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2868-True-Female-Characters
Incidentally, this video series is BRILLIANT. Please, everyone who is interested in games as an artistic medium, watch these videos. They don't get everything right all the time but they are *extremely* insightful and far more thoughtful than most other things on the internet.
I think the answer to the problem of female characters is to make them appealing the same way that fully realised male characters are. So give them personality, give them strengths and weaknesses, give them a struggle and present them as human beings rather than caricatures. You don't have to give them enormous breasts and take away their clothes for them to be deeply engaging: you have to make them intriguing as a character.
Samus Aran was desexualized??
In the original NES game the reward for beating the game in under a certain amount of time was literally the removal of her clothes. You could do this twice to get her down to a bikini.
That's desexualized?
Yeah, she's a great contender, but it falls apart quickly with the bonus ending sequences. Metroid Prime 1 was the only game that portrayed her entirely as a non-sexualised figure. The most you got at the end for a reward was seeing her take her helmet off. And she looked great. And then Prime 2 came out and Nintendo forced Retro Studios to turn her into a teeny bopper.
Plus there are later versions of Samus that completely destroy the non-sexualized idea of the character. Zero Suit, anyone?
That's the thing, I certainly know it's possible, and some of what makes it possible, but I wanted to hear some thoughts and advice from women in the industry as well. And the reply I got was a complete disappointment. I mean, I understand the idea of sort of "owning" that sexualized imagery and wielding it rather than being objectified for it, but there ARE other ways.
I never really saw Aeris (Aerith, whatever) being sexualized and she's one of my favorite characters from any game series period.
Quote from: KatieHal on May 13, 2011, 08:19:45 AM"How do you think games can or do or should try to sell successful female characters who aren't oversexualized? Either what qualities they have, or should have, and what are the added challenges to doing so?"
Alyx Vance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alyx_Vance). End of discussion.
Sure, Alyx is good-looking, but the best thing about her is that she's a strong, independent character with actual depth and not the "obligatory hot chick clinging on the male protagonist's arm".
And I'm quite surprised by the response you got. I would have expected that from most men, but not women.
After reading all that had been written I came to this conclusion:
Maybe the problem isn't about people making games that other people want to buy, but about people who aren't making the games they themselves would like to see.
Personally I see no problem with hypersexuality. Both male and female. That poster of Kratos looks like something that could have come from the pages of Playgirl. I find it sexy and mysterious at the same time.
Using Kane and Lynch, especially their Dog Days models, as an example of manliness? Trying to imply that only boys have mothers? Sometimes I hope that we could all stop making judgements based purely on how we wish things are.
I actually don't like Aeris at all, but prefer Tifa--who of course is the one with the more sexualized look, although I wouldn't classify her as 'obligatory sex object' either. But Aeris always annoyed me with overdone girly sweetness. Tifa kicked ass. Way cooler :)
I know anything this Alyx Vance person, but she does present a good look for what we're talking about certainly. :)
Ah, I only ever played Metroid Prime 1 and a little of 2 so I didn't know about the alternate endings. I assumed they hadn't sexualised her in the other games, since in Prime 1 her sex is very much pushed into the background.
QuotePersonally I see no problem with hypersexuality. Both male and female. That poster of Kratos looks like something that could have come from the pages of Playgirl. I find it sexy and mysterious at the same time.
Using Kane and Lynch, especially their Dog Days models, as an example of manliness? Trying to imply that only boys have mothers? Sometimes I hope that we could all stop making judgements based purely on how we wish things are.
I have no real problem with the existence of God of War and Kratos per se. But when a vast number of games are male power fantasies featuring huge, burly men and offering the player almost limitless power with very little nuance, I think things are going a bit far. I don't think the sky will fall or all gamers will become power-obsessed maniacs - I just think that, at the moment, games tend to be overly focused on this area and this target demographic, which seems a bit shallow and needlessly limiting.
Also, I didn't use Kane and Lynch as an example of manliness exactly; I think I phrased that wrong. They're not really butch the way Kratos or Dante is. (Incidentally, Dante? That is NOT Dante! Dante was a POET! He presented himself as WEAK and COWARDLY! There is no link between the speaker of the poem and the videogame. Sorry, that just annoys me.) But Kane and Lynch are another example of gritty, serious men doing gritty, serious things with lots of guns and not much emotion. Again, I don't mind that these games exist, but it's just that these serious, gritty characters who (one must assume, given the marketing) appeal to a certain demographic seem to me to be very male-oriented. It's just an almost total submersion of the gamer in this male adolescent power fantasy.
Also, yes, girls obviously have mothers too. But don't you think that the phrase "Your mom will hate this!", spoken in a deep, manly voice, is aimed at young males? Especially when all the imagery is of people being ripped into chunks of meat and having their limbs torn off. I don't want to seem sexist - in fact, I know for certain that there are girl gamers out there who do enjoy this stuff - but I do get the impression that most girls don't tend to find that as appealing as boys do.
Quote from: darthkiwi on May 13, 2011, 03:14:13 PMI don't want to seem sexist - in fact, I know for certain that there are girl gamers out there who do enjoy this stuff - but I do get the impression that most girls don't tend to find that as appealing as boys do.
Not only that, but women from a different generation are even less likely to find it as appealing as boys from this generation. This is obviously not a women-only thing, but it's a very safe bet, especially if you're talking about the previous generation. I personally know lots of previous-generation women, and cannot think of one that wouldn't shudder and be completely grossed out by some of the stuff in the first Dead Space, and I doubt the second is any tamer.
That said, I also know men who would find it equally revolting, but not nearly as many. I think the commercial was emphasizing the generational differences rather than gender differences. Would it have been better if they had used both genders? I don't think it would have helped, but it couldn't have hurt. Why didn't they? Who knows? But I never once got the impression that they were being intentionally sexist.
Quote from: KatieHal on May 13, 2011, 11:46:12 AMI know anything this Alyx Vance person, but she does present a good look for what we're talking about certainly. :)
Yeah, she's easily one of my most favorite characters in video gaming. She's not oversexed, she's independent and strong, and yet she still displays emotion and even at times vulnerability, so she hasn't been stripped of her femininity either.
And for the record, my opinion of her is shared by many others; many of the things I said here were echoed in her write-up in Game Informer's 30 Most Important Video Game Characters article (I'd link it, but I can't find it online anywhere).
Sorry for rambling, but I just really love how Valve did Alyx. :)
Women are only as sexualized in games as the teenage male demographic demands. Put another way, every female character in any game, so long as they look reasonably human, will have teenage boys rubbing one out to them. It's just how the world works. Alyx Vance has the body she does for a reason, regardless of how skimpy or not skimpy her clothing is, or how many gratuitous booty shots the game throws at you. Come back to me when the woman is plus-sized and homely. lol
Two words - Fat Princess.
I also think it's okay for female characters to be sexualised, provided that
1) straight female and male gay gamers get their crop of attractive male characters. And if there are 'rewards' where you get to undress the female characters, offer straight female and gay male gamers similar rewards (I know at least one girl who would love this)
2) there is relief among NPC characters. I know for marketing reasons player character are unlikely to be homely females, just as they are unlikely to be a homely males, but considering that NPC characters are sometimes fairly homely males who don't particularly have to be male, it would be nice if more NPC characters were homely women.
When you have a game world where almost all of the female characters are very sexualised, and a significant portion of the male characters are not sexualised, then you give the impression that female characters only need to be around for sex appeal.
(the exception would be a game under certain circumstances, such as a game set in a 1950s army bootcamp, where there is an alternative explanation for the lack of females).
3) the characters of the female characters are about as well developed as their male counterparts
This all reminds me of an awful comment I heard in middle school (coming from a 13-year old boy, IIRC) "If girls want porn, they just have to undress and stand in front of the mirror." I think it should be obvious to everyone here what is wrong with that statement.
Quote from: KatieHal on May 12, 2011, 01:00:01 PM
From what I can tell, it is! I watched a non-drunk LP of it which was also pretty funny by Kikoskia on youtube :)
Kikoskia is fantastic. :P http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAc-_5eqew4
(Posted on: 15 May 2011, 19:18:53)
Quote from: Lambonius on May 13, 2011, 04:17:53 PM
Women are only as sexualized in games as the teenage male demographic demands. Put another way, every female character in any game, so long as they look reasonably human, will have teenage boys rubbing one out to them. It's just how the world works. Alyx Vance has the body she does for a reason, regardless of how skimpy or not skimpy her clothing is, or how many gratuitous booty shots the game throws at you. Come back to me when the woman is plus-sized and homely. lol
I think this is a very good point. I'm not saying they shouldn't still have personality, but they can't risk losing the demographic by making them less sexual. Besides, most female gamers won't mind playing as a glorified sex symbol with a fleshed out personality and past.
Quote from: Deloria on May 15, 2011, 11:30:01 AMQuote from: Lambonius on May 13, 2011, 04:17:53 PM
Women are only as sexualized in games as the teenage male demographic demands. Put another way, every female character in any game, so long as they look reasonably human, will have teenage boys rubbing one out to them. It's just how the world works. Alyx Vance has the body she does for a reason, regardless of how skimpy or not skimpy her clothing is, or how many gratuitous booty shots the game throws at you. Come back to me when the woman is plus-sized and homely. lol
I think this is a very good point. I'm not saying they shouldn't still have personality, but they can't risk losing the demographic by making them less sexual. Besides, most female gamers won't mind playing as a glorified sex symbol with a fleshed out personality and past.
And ultimately it always does come down to the teen boy market because in the world of gender roles video games are a boy's toy. There might be increasing numbers of female gamers, but the gender role still has these games as being things that boys play. It will take a long while for that attitude to change. Heck, women have been entering the workforce for decades now, and only in this past year have we seen soap operas start to go off the air because the demographic of "housewife" doesn't seem to make as much sense.
We're fit into gender roles from the earliest of ages. They've actually done tests with babies and found that baby boys are more likely to grab a truck to play with while baby girls will grab a doll. So even before we're capable of understanding or expressing ourselves through language, we know what our gender role is due to nonverbal cues. Electronics have traditionally been seen as a man's area. Probably because women were seen as housewives, so the only electronics they should be interesting are of the housekeeping variety. Thus video games are seen as an extension of that, meant for men and boys. Plus, the boy gender role is one of acting out and aggression, which means that parents would be more likely to turn to an electronic babysitter. Instead of telling a boy to sit down and settle down, you just say, "Boys will be boys. Why don't you go watch t.v. for a while and give me some quiet?" Meanwhile girls, according to gender roles are automatically supposed to be quiet and well behaved, so why turn to the electronic babysitter. A girl acts up and you just say, "That's not very ladylike!"
All that is to say that video games are geared towards men. And since games in general are seen as an artifact of childhood, that narrows the demographic down to hormone driven teenage boys. So the women will be incredibly oversexualized because it's what they want. And that in turn keeps video games in the niche of a boy's toy.
Quote from: Damar on May 17, 2011, 02:13:46 PMA girl acts up and you just say, "That's not very ladylike!"
Actually, that works if the girl in question is an aspiring princess. :P Ah, mothers and manipulation. ::)
QuoteAnd since games in general are seen as an artifact of childhood
They may be seen as artifact of childhood, but the average age of gamers is now around 30. Games are not toys any more - or they needn't be, at least.
But I think you are right in saying that they are *seen* as childish toys, even if the reality is different.
I agree that this isn't actually the case. But that's still how it's seen by society. And it takes society a long while to change its opinion. Even when you know that something isn't the case, we are still slaves to what society's views are. Video games may be for adults just as much for kids, but adults will still battle the stereotype that they are immature when they talk about the video games they play.
Yes, well the gaming industry, like a rational business (not that it always is rational, but anyway) also tries sometimes to expand its market - for example, the Wii was aimed at people who were previously less inclined to play console games. There is no strictly economic reason to pursue mostly teenage boys at the expense of other groups, especially when that is the most competitive space.
And as a number of people have said, pleasing the teenage boys and pleasing other people are not mutually exclusive goals. I think a great example of this is the anime Bubblegum Crisis - which even though it's generally considered something made for males, it has a lot of appeal across gender -
- Straight males like because of the hot women, and the teases (there is a little nudity, which is why my local video store put it in the 'must be over 17 to rent' section), as well as the other things which are good about it
- Females like it because the female characters have well-made personalities. Well, okay it's not a masterpiece, but relative to the male characters' personalities, the female characters have well-made personalities, which is extremely rare for something which was originally aimed at a male audience. And they live their lives on their own terms, not on the terms of men. If anything, it's the mens' lives who revolve around the women's, not the other way around - which is again rare for something aimed at males.
I see no reason why there can't be a video/computer game like Bubblegum Crisis, and I would think that, all other things being equal (gameplay, graphics, etc) it would be more commercially successful than something made with only teenage boys in mind.
I actually did a study in this a couple of years back but it was with films. The target range that most big producers and game developers is Male 18-28, if I am remembering correctly. It is still a male dominated world and the games and films will follow. You just have to be open minded about games. I don't like Halo (personal reasons) but I love Monkey Island, Star Wars and any other type of strategy war games out there. I hate it when I am playing a game at school and a guy comes up and says, "that's a guy's game you can't play it." Society is still so closed minded and until Girls really step up and no longer be afraid to play in the boys only club, will it really change.
Quote from: waltzdancing on May 17, 2011, 09:45:00 PM
until Girls really step up and no longer be afraid to play in the boys only club, will it really change.
:highfive:
Final Fantasy is a good place to find female leads that aren't really sexualised. Aeris, Rinoa, Yuna in FFX. Even Lighting. She was badass, but wasn't really sexualized.
If you look at the adventure genre, you will also find characters that aren't sexualised. Laura Bow, Grace Nakimura, Samantha Everett, Maggie (whatever her last name was from The Dig). So it really depends on the game you are trying to sell.
However, if by sexualised we are talking about attractive, that's simply not going to go away anytime. I mean, if you look at series (TV, film) done for teenage girls, you tend to see a lot of shirtless guys as well. So, the problem is more in our society as such rather than just videogames. Mass appealing videogames just happen to still be dominated by teenage boys.