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Phoenix Online Studios => The Silver Lining => General => Topic started by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on August 29, 2011, 05:07:10 PM

Title: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on August 29, 2011, 05:07:10 PM
Share here your feelings, retrospective reviews, etc on KQ3.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: Baggins on August 29, 2011, 05:18:36 PM
I like the game, its my second favorite of the AGI games after KQ2 (if mainly for the story). The story is compelling. It has a great villain, that really gets in your way. So there is always a sense of dread, when fighting the clock.

But I find it the weakest KQ game as far as puzzles. The majority of the puzzles are explained in the manual, and involve finding spell ingredients for the spells in the manual.

So most puzzles are nothing but fetch quests for those spells. Is picking up an item or acquiring it, really a puzzle in and of itself? I argue that most actions in the game basically involve 'thievery' from others. Once you have the spells, you also know what those spells are useful for again, according to the manual... So there is less thinking that needs to be done in the game.

So with the spells making up a good 80 or 90% of the game, there are few puzzles that involve interactions with other characters. The few that still exist generally involve, 'paying gold" to get whatever items they sell, or to gain passage. So gold purse item gets used more than once (and people complain about using harp and tambourine in KQ5 twice)!

Once you reach Daventry, most of the area has zero inventory puzzles (mostly involves climbing, and a maze puzzle), until you reach Daventry proper. There is an optional puzzle to get a treasure chest, but it really serves little point to the story (you can only get it if you overheard the mice in the ship's hold). Daventry proper is has no real puzzles... You talk to the gnome (maybe for a point or two), and then head up into the Cloudland. Cloudland again has no puzzles, except for the use of two spells which the manual tells you how to use, in just that kind of situation!

I find the puzzles in KQ1 are much better, and more detailed than in KQ3.

IMO, the puzzles in KQ8 are far more compelling than KQ3 (many in that game actually require you to think outside the box, even if it still has a few fetch quests)...

I don't really mind the magic map, but its kinda too powerful, considering that generally the only type of puzzles in the game involve collecting items for the spells...So it makes things almost too easy.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: Blackthorne on August 29, 2011, 07:53:07 PM
I hate King's Quest III.

Why?  Because I remade it, and as a result, I've played it 37,386 times.   

I used to love it.  Liked the story, love the graphics and locations.  When I first played it, I loved finding out that Gwydion was Alexander.

Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: Baggins on August 29, 2011, 07:55:00 PM
I'd find it amusing if someone comes in here and says, "I hate KQ3, because I've played through three different versions of it".
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: Fierce Deity on August 29, 2011, 08:06:47 PM
I like King's Quest 3 because I like Alexander's story. Where he came from, where he was going, and where he belonged. Even in The Silver Lining, Alexander is still my favorite character in the entire series. I do feel like the game was unbalanced though. It almost felt like the first half of the game was spent escaping the house, and then the latter half was making your way home from Llewdor. I agree with Baggins, the puzzles were weak. But it was still an eventful experience. The only thing that kept me playing was the story and the main character. Also, the facade of playing as Gwydion, only to find out his true nature and name was an interesting twist. I'll never be able to relive that moment, but it definitely added to the epic storytelling.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: Baggins on August 29, 2011, 08:26:35 PM
Heh, I never got to live that moment, since I played KQ5 first! That being said the story is my favorite part of KQ3.

I just feel it has the weakest puzzles of the series, even a lack there of.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: DawsonJ on August 29, 2011, 08:47:14 PM
I agree about the puzzles being weak. My complaint is that there's NO story in the beginning. You just collect ingredients and try to survive. That's what I dislike about KQ8 - the main interactions in the game are about survival, not interacting with others to learn about your quest. Essentially, KQ3 has no quest, until you hear from the birds about your true identity. By the way, does Redux even have the birds? I watched a full playthrough and I don't remember the scene with the birds.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: Baggins on August 29, 2011, 08:53:44 PM
KQ3 has an introduction movie, that explains your quest actually. Watch past the credits.
KQ2 actually does the same thing, watch past the credits for the introduction movie.

KQ4, KQ5 and KQ6 do about the same thing with the introduction movies too, but they ask if you want to skip or not.

It is very possible to play KQ1 without knowing what your quest is. In the original game you have to actually go walk into the castle, and talk to the king to get the quest... You start outside the castle beyond the moat on the rightside of hte castle (no where near the entrance door, its one screen away). In that game its very possible to play without knowing your quest. KQ1 SCI if you were to start without watching the introduction, would probably be the same way. The only difference it starts with you coming out of the castle.

BTW, you barely get a chance to interact with anyone in KQ3 either. Most characters pretty much ignore you. Essentially Rumplestiltskin and Rosella are the only two characters that have alot to say (other than those animals, which you can't directly interact with). Manannan makes orders to Gwydion, or punishments, but he mostly ignores you.

KQ8 has people and creatures to interact with to tell you about your quest. But you might overlook the raven that points you towards that initial person to talk to. In which case you might wander 20 minutes before you run into him on your own!

The Wizard the raven leads you to, is a very cool character too! He comments on almost every item in the game, giving more insight on the items! So there is a reason to go back to Daventry every once in a while to get his opinion on things just for the fun of it!
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: MusicallyInspired on August 29, 2011, 09:41:08 PM
I still like KQ3 because when I remade it we changed and added a bunch of stuff. Going back to the old one is refreshing for me. :)
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: Damar on August 30, 2011, 07:21:06 PM
King's Quest III is probably my second favorite of all the King's Quest games.

It never occurred to me that there were so few puzzles in the game, but thinking back, that's absolutely right.  I think the exploration of the countryside, the fact that you were under a timer, and the atmosphere of the game kept it from feeling like it was just a scavenger hunt.  In fact, I think that's the main difference between the fetch quests here and the fetch quests in Mask of Eternity.  In KQIII you had to explore to find a bunch of different ingredients to further your quest.  In MOE, you had to kill a bunch of monsters to pick up items that were lying around so that you could get a stats bump.  If you wanted it.  You could beat the game without the Essence of Sun Tzu or the Sylph powerup or the electric chair bugaloo.  They weren't necessary, but the spells in KQ3 were.

It also had a great villain that was constantly in your face.  Up until this game, the villains were unimportant.  They'd kill you, sure, but there was never a central villain that you were forced to deal with.  Hagatha was supposed to be central, but the fact that you couldn't hurt her and just ran from her kept her on the periphery plot-wise.  And if you didn't read the  manual, you'd just assume she was a random monster like the evil enchanter when she was the evil witch that put Valanice in the tower.  This was really the first game where you dealt with all the villains instead of just avoiding them.  You had to deal with Manannan.  You had to find the bandits and steal from them.  You had to defeat Medusa.  You had to...ok the abominable snowman was still just a "run from the random monster" thing.  But by and large you actually had to face the evils instead of running from them.

So the atmosphere of the game and the drive to escape really elevated the game from just being a scavenger hunt for me.  The magic map never bothered me because it was a way to avoid going down that cliff.  Though the fact that they still made you go up it was nerve-wracking, especially when Manannan's return was imminent.  I also liked the pure exploration of the game.  In fact, one could argue that the exploration was the main point of the game.  Yes, you're trying to get home, but you do that by exploring.  Every new location is about finding out what's in the next screen.  Where you're going next.  It leads to a pretty immersive experience, which is why I love the game so much.

Personally, I love the game so much that it never bothered me to have to type in all the spells.  It was always more than simple dictation to me.  The timer was a factor (until the incantation came up) and that music...that music just pounding into your mind.  It put you right on the edge of your seat.

I just adored this game as a kid.  I played it constantly.  Even more than KQ2 once we bought it.  It's to the point that I barely even need the manual for the spells.  And the incantations I can write by heart to this day.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: Baggins on August 30, 2011, 07:28:50 PM
In MOE, you had to kill a bunch of monsters to pick up items that were lying around so that you could get a stats bump.  If you wanted it.  You could beat the game without the Essence of Sun Tzu or the Sylph powerup or the electric chair bugaloo.  They weren't necessary, but the spells in KQ3 were.
Actually several of the spells in KQ3 are quite optional.

You don't have to make the animal dough, or the magic stone spell, you don't even have to make causing a deep sleep, for example.

Ignoring your spell examples, there are actually quite a few items in KQ8 that are required for puzzles, and are not optional.

Note: To get full points in KQ3 and KQ8 (KQ8 does have a point system) you do need to finish even the optional spells.
Hagatha was supposed to be central, but the fact that you couldn't hurt her and just ran from her kept her on the periphery plot-wise.

Oddly enough Dracula in KQ2 has a stronger role central to the plot, and referred to or connected to several characters in game. Although optional, you need to kill him for maximum points!
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: Damar on August 30, 2011, 07:42:22 PM
True enough some of the spells end up being optional, but you don't know that when you start.  And in some cases they open up more of the game to you.  The ear dough, for example lets you know who you really are before the oracle tells you.  And, again, for all you know when first playing the game, all these spells are necessary to win.

MOE's fetch quests, by extension, never had that sense about them.  You're told that you'd get a power up, which might make the fighting more enjoyable (or less enjoyable if you like the challenge!)  I think the first time I played MOE, in the Realm of the Gnomes, I knew that the Essence of Sun Tzu would just give me a boost.  It wouldn't do anything else.  It was the completionist in me that made me go for it.  And by the time I got the boost, I'd already cleared out the whole Realm so I was kind of like, "Well...ok then.  I'm sure I'll be happy I had this in the next world."

So for me, the optional spells in KQ3 still serve a purpose because they expand the game and play into the plot.  Plus, I was one of those incredibly unlucky children for whom the random monsters always appeared.  And always at the worst possible moment when I was in the middle of the screen.  The teleportation at random spell was absolutely not optional for me!  I never would have survived the mountains without it!  (I was always out of essence at that point since the game only allowed the 3 transformations.)
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: Baggins on August 30, 2011, 07:55:41 PM
The sleep spell, is actually for a rather pointless side quest. To get a treasure chest that serves no purpose in the game. It's not really important to the story. It's my least favorite 'puzzle' in the game, since it requires listening to rats for a random message, and if you take too long, and they don't give you the message, the ship might sell off before you can leave. It can take up to a half-hour to get them to give their message about the treasure. If you cast sleep spell, the rats don't show up. All that wasted time for an optional item that serves no story purpose. If you never hear the rats, and are forced to jump off when the pirates call, 'land ho', or simply use the spell to make the escape easier, you will not get that chest. Neither of these affect the story.

The 'stone of teleportation' really serves no purpose and is not really all that tied into the story. Considering that the fly/eagle spell essentially serves the same role, and is more useful. its possible for the teleportation stone to randomly drop you into dangerous situations like out at sea, or into the arms of the Abominanable Snowman, or into the hands of the bandits. So its also kinda dangerous, and a time waster (especially if it gets you into places that require you to cast the spell again).

I do agree that the dough, it does improve the story, but its still not needed to understand the game's story. It also requires the player to stand around waiting to listen to random conversations, that may or may not appear, when the player enters a screen. Sometimes the animals talk the moment you enter, sometimes it might take 20-30 minutes to hear their messages. So its 'benefit' to each player varies. Also each animal has about three different messages, and if the player doesn't know about that, they might miss any that are more relevent to the game's plot. Many of the messages serve no purpose other than flavor (having no direct relation to the main story).

Since there is some challenge in finding some of the spell ingredients, it's quite possible to miss them when working through the game. There are other points to be missed in the game as well, that aren't required to beat the game, such as listening on the bandits as a fly, or discovering the badnit's hideout as a fly.

So really most of the spells aren't particurarly important. I know I missed finishing one or more of these spells my first time through.

BTW, if you finish the oracle, and/or defeat Mananannan, before finishing the dough (which is easy to do), it sets off the timer for the pirate ship! You pretty much have to start leaving for Daventry. So if you wander too much, you might end up in one of the game's many dead ends (stuck in Llewdor)! Not everyone knows its a good thing to finish the dough early on, nor does that mean they have found all the ingredients to finish it early on. That timer is related to more than just Manannan.

Another spell in KQ8 is required, the hunt for the three items needed to make the ring of illumination (this is similar to the three item spell in KQ7 to cure the troll curse). That one is tied into the story, and is require to move on.

Also for me personallhy I don't judge KQ8 on the merit of its 'spells' puzzles only. The spells are only one small aspect of that game's puzzles. There are quite a few classic adventure game style inventory puzzles, to use as examples that are vastly superior to anything in KQ3. For example, the very logical, 'cutting down a tree' to stop water. Using a fire to melt ice shard, then using frost to freeze the shard to make a lever. These are clever and realistic puzzles. I also rather like the puzze for defeating the basilisk, that doesn't require directly fighting the monster in the game. Yes, its another hunt for items to make a special weapon. But you still have to figure out how to use that weapon. These are some of my favorite puzzles in the entire KQ series actually.

Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: dark-daventry on August 30, 2011, 09:50:19 PM
I was always on the fence about KQ3; that damn timer got me so aggravated! The plot twist at the end was certainly something I enjoyed, though. I wouldn't call it my favorite, but I most certainly wouldn't call it my least favorite. I'd say it's in the middle for me. I know trying to navigate down that mountain was a pain in the butt...
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: Damar on August 31, 2011, 07:47:47 PM
The issues with waiting for the animals to talk and the randomness of the teleporting never bothered me much.  Mainly because you learn how to deal with those game mechanics.  With the animals, I never waited around.  Typically you'd get a conversation in the first couple seconds.  If I didn't, I'd leave the screen then come back immediately.  Usually the animals would still be there, and they'd say something new.  If they vanished, then leave and come back.  Likewise, the teleportation could be a pain, but the F3 button is your friend.  You just keep plugging away until you're back where you need to be, and when you're up in the mountains, there aren't a ton of different screens it can send you to.  Like I said, the stone saved my life more times than I can count because the abominable snowman always showed for me when I was in the middle of the screen.  Though i guess I could have used the map as well.

So yeah, I just knew how to play the randomness of the game mechanics, so it wasn't a huge deal.  Though the random necessary characters were annoying at times (the eagle and Red Riding Hood in KQ2) because you'd have to leave and come back multiple times, hoping they'd show.  At least with the animals, you knew they'd be there more often than not.  Eventually I got used to it, but when I first played these games as a kid, it was on an old Tandy computer.  There was a good 7 second load time between each screen.  It's amazing that I was able to deal with that.  If Netflix takes that long to load one of my streamable movies, I'm ready to throw my laptop against a wall!
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: Baggins on August 31, 2011, 07:57:57 PM
Hmm, funny I run into Red Riding Hood all the time early on.

But ya, that eagle is annoying... Sometimes he'd drop the feather the moment I first came down the mountain. Other times, I'd be waiting several hours before it finally dropped it.

BTW, you can also get through the mountains using the feather and ointment to fly over the abominable snowman. It's often the way I do it.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: Damar on September 01, 2011, 05:58:32 PM
By the time I get to the mountains I'm already out of essence as you have to use it three times to get the maximum points.  And I'm all about getting the maximum points (or more than the maximum in the case of Space Quest 1.)  So it's always up to the teleportation spell to save me from the abominable snowman.

Regarding King's Quest III, it just occurred to me that this would have been the first game to actually have a theme ("score" is probably a bit too much.)  KQ1 didn't have much, as I recall, and KQ2's music was replaying existing songs (apart from general, character specific short music).  From Greensleeves to some Bach in Dracula's castle to some Tchaikovsky when you kiss Valanice.  Oh, and of course Michael Jackson outside the castle (how did they not get sued?)  King's Quest III, on the other hand, had that opening theme followed by the ominous Manannan theme.  It was a step up in them creating their own music specific to the games.  And they, of course, really hit their stride with KQ4.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: Baggins on September 01, 2011, 06:12:51 PM
By the time I get to the mountains I'm already out of essence as you have to use it three times to get the maximum points.  
Anymore when I do play KQ3 I go for full points as well. It's not that difficult to get full points and still have extra ointment.

You can do the fly eavesdrop and fly over to the hideout all in one setting. You can do the eagle thing. That leaves one extra essence. Strangely sometimes the game gives me four essence dips (actually I'd say more often than not on the version I've played)! Which gives me more than enough to get full points.

KQ1 didn't have much
KQ1 on apple had an original theme music (as opposed to greensleaves, etc) interestingly enough.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: MusicallyInspired on September 01, 2011, 06:52:24 PM
Indeed. The music for AGI games was quite different on Apple II machines. Many Sierra games had whole new themes not present in the IBM/Compatible DOS versions. SQ2 had an escape theme and alternate credits music which parodied Star Trek IV's theme. Then there are the examples Baggins noted about King's Quest. And the sound effects were also quite good and realistic! Quite a different experience.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest III
Post by: Bludshot on September 06, 2011, 02:15:36 PM
Terrifying, hard, and relatively low on Sierra logic.

Probably my favorite after VI.