Figured this thread would be interesting for Baggins, Katie and other fans to discuss in. I personally like the game a lot I just don't agree with tying all of the games together via a prophecy. I am very big on each game standing alone for the most part, with only minor ties to each other--Which is how the series is. I also don't like how some character's entire personalities are changed or given unnedeed depth.
For example, in the original KQ2, the lady in the antique's shop is simply a kindly lady who wants her pet back, which has been stolen by an evil witch. That's simple, very fairy tale-esque and provides a lovely subplot for Graham and continues the trend of "Graham helps person in need = Graham gets helped without knowing it or seeking it."
In RTS, she's a demented woman who wants to join a Satanic society and who doesn't want the nightinggale back for simple reasons, but for a youth potion which she doesn't even need since she's young in appearance anyway. She kills the nightinggale--very dark--Basically Graham unwittingly sends an innocent bird to a horrible death--and then is herself killed.
Or the Priest. In KQ2: RTT, he's a simple, pious Monk, who aids Graham by giving him a cross and blesses him. Graham can even kneel and join the humble Monk in prayer, and if you attempt to kill the Monk, the game kills you. It's also heavily implied that the Monk is a Christian monk and Graham and Valanice are wedded in his monastery.
In RTS, he's not pious or humble or even good; He's an evil, bloodthirsty werewolf who Graham has to kill with a sword ala KQ8. He's not even a Christian (Christianity is removed and instead just becomes a nameless religion).
Or Dracula...Another character 180.
I like the game for what it is, and it does in large measure keep the tone and spirit and heart of KQ alive; It's also very well written. I just don't like how it alters the original game's characters. You can add to a game or add backstory without flipping things on their heads.
Personally I think it changed too much... Characters were turned on their heads, completely modified... It tried to insert too much of a complicated backstory, that tried to tie all the KQ villains together in a tight clear package, tied to an ancient one thousand year prophecy... The same problem that TSL makes...
It's kinda too dark... the same problem I have with TSL... Both are filled with sappy teen style drama...
I find TSL and AGDI's trilogy are birds of a feather...
Quoteexample, in the original KQ2, the lady in the antique's shop is simply a kindly lady who wants her pet back, which has been stolen by an evil witch. That's simple, very fairy tale-esque and provides a lovely subplot for Graham and continues the trend of "Graham helps person in need = Graham gets helped without knowing it or seeking it."
Well, she's not exactly entirely kindly in KQ2... She gets positively grumpy if you offer her anything she doesn't want!
Quote"That won't do!", the little old lady snaps."
She becomes dismayed if you try to offer the empty bird cage.
QuoteWhere's my little bird! I don't want an empty cage!
But in general she is vary gracious, infact very thankful when you return her pet, before sending you out of her shop.
Quote"This is a new item in my shop, I thought you might be interested in it.", "The oil lamp is expensive, it will cost you two treasures. There is an alternative, though, the old hag, Hagatha, stole my precious nightengale. If you can return it to me, then I will give you the oil lamp."
Quote"My precious. Good luck... In gratitude she gives you the oil lamp."
(Posted on: September 09, 2011, 01:33:42 PM)
QuoteIn RTS, he's not pious or humble or even good; He's an evil, bloodthirsty werewolf who Graham has to kill with a sword ala KQ8. He's not even a Christian (Christianity is removed and instead just becomes a nameless religion).
Minor correction, you kill him with a poison dart... you can kill some of his minions with a sword, or use wolfsbane to avoid them.
Also its very much implied to be Christian. He mentions "God", and he also talks about "Heaven". There is also a "Bible" in the church. Crosses and crucifixes are still very much a part of the old monastery itself. However you find that the church might have been Christian at one time, they are now worshping the "Spirit of the Wild" or some such forest spirits.
Yes, he is very different character...
I prefer the version in the original...
I loved RTS's story. Loved it. But it's not canon so nobody has to take it too seriously. It's a great story. I like complexity and a certain amount of convolution. I also like all the fan service, as opposed to most of my other IA brethren, but I also am glad that it isn't canon. It's just a great fangame that was extremely well-written and very well designed and balanced. The puzzles are great, the dialogue is great, the artwork is great, the soundtrack is GREAT.
It's fantastic. You could say that it changed too much but in the end it doesn't really matter because it's a fangame. I appreciate all the changes seeing as the original really didn't have much going for it at all.
I'd prefer to see a remake stayed closer to the KQ2 than it took... Like KQ1SCI took the original KQ1...
Would have been interesting to see what direction Sierra would have done with KQ2 remake, but it was cancelled... and will never happen.
I really enjoyed KQ2+.
However, I'm certainly one of the "IA brethren" to whom MI refers as generally disliking overt fan service in games. ;)
I just can't play games like KQ2+ and TSL (especially TSL, where the writing is SO much sappier) and not think of the writers feverishly[spoiler] wanking to a Word document full of their own prose.[/spoiler]
So to speak, that is. :suffer:
I do have a line. TSL crosses it in a big way (for me personally! Still a monumental achievement). But not because of over-convolution, just the style and tone of writing. It's mega serious and mega sappy, as Lamb said. KQ2+, while somewhat moody, still has the right amount of whimsy at the same time.
Thank you, MI.
I really liked KQ2+. Yes, it vastly changed the story, but I loved what they did with it. The canon KQ2 story is very straightforward. They added great twists, turned things totally around from what you would have expected after playing the original, and just overall did a wonderful job. Huge kudos and thumbs up to AGDI on this one!
I mainly enjoyed KQ2+ because it felt like a brand new KQ game, which at the time, I was desperate to play in any way shape or form. As an "update" of KQ2, it's certainly not the way I would have approached it. As MI said, the tone and style of the writing (with the exception of the cheesy high-fantasy nerdgasm backstory with all those cliche anagram names) is more in keeping with the official KQ games.
By the time TSL started to come out, I had been involved in the actual MAKING of these games for a few years, and as such, the sheer sense of release at finally playing a new KQ game was just not there for me anymore. Which of course made the game's flaws stand out to me all the more.
In all seriousness, I do respect the effort and accomplishment of TSL, even if parts of its design disagree with my adventure game palate. ;)
All in all KQ2+ is a very nice and well-done 'alternate' experience. Nothing more, nothing less.
Quote from: MusicallyInspired on September 09, 2011, 12:53:15 PM
All in all KQ2+ is a very nice and well-done 'alternate' experience. Nothing more, nothing less.
Agreed. :)
Quote from: MusicallyInspired on September 09, 2011, 11:52:19 AM
I loved RTS's story. Loved it. But it's not canon so nobody has to take it too seriously. It's a great story. I like complexity and a certain amount of convolution. I also like all the fan service, as opposed to most of my other IA brethren, but I also am glad that it isn't canon. It's just a great fangame that was extremely well-written and very well designed and balanced. The puzzles are great, the dialogue is great, the artwork is great, the soundtrack is GREAT.
It's fantastic. You could say that it changed too much but in the end it doesn't really matter because it's a fangame. I appreciate all the changes seeing as the original really didn't have much going for it at all.
^^ What they said.
Quote from: Lambonius on September 09, 2011, 12:49:25 PM
In all seriousness, I do respect the effort and accomplishment of TSL, even if parts of its design disagree with my adventure game palate. ;)
Thanks, Lamb. That really does mean a lot, coming from you. It's hard to know whether you love to bash TSL because it's become sort of a sport for you, or whether that's just who you are. But this is nice, and we don't get nice often from you :)
I think your first post ever here was before the involvement in the games and it shows an over excited TSL fan. Whatever happened to that lovely Lamb? lol ;)
KQ2 + is a great game! I love playing it, but I totally consider it an "alternate" universe game, ya know? I don't like all the convoluted history thrust into Daventry, but hey some dig it. Some don't. It's still, just as itself a great game.
Bt
KQ2+ for me was not supposed to be anything less than a reimagining. Therefore, I don't think it's so close to the series that I can judge whether "too much" can even be decided. Cause then I'd be saying they added "too much" to their own game. The same could be said for TSL. Especially after renaming it from King's Quest IX, TSL isn't supposed to be the title that Roberta was going to release next. It's fan fiction, and with fan fiction, comes a diverse writing style. That's why I feel like Phoenix, AGDI, and Infamous Adventures are appealing to fans with fan service, rather than trying to remake a series that has already been made. I feel like fan service can open up a new world for the fans.
Aside from my pleasant experience with KQ2+, I did feel like the one thing that I wanted to explore was the origin of Legenimor and Morgeilen. A lot of what was explained was in text, which is fine, but I'd like to see more on the subject and not just vague statements about "Items". The "Father" story is an interesting one, but the story almost feels like it's hovering over the original King's Quest story and isn't really integrating itself with the KQ story. So I guess in my opinion, they didn't add enough.
IIRC, there were plans to create a King's Quest game centred solely around and concluding the Father storyline. But the chances of that happening now are anyone's guess.
Quote from: MusicallyInspired on September 09, 2011, 11:35:15 PM
IIRC, there were plans to create a King's Quest game centred solely around and concluding the Father storyline. But the chances of that happening now are anyone's guess.
I gotta say, I absolutely hate when movie or game studios do this. You know, come up with a complex story that they can't possibly conclude in the first film/game, get people into it, and then just expect that they will get the chance to finish it up in sequels, which may or may not ever come out. I can't help but find it incredibly arrogant--like they just expected it to be a hit, and that the sequel would automatically be green-lighted. And with AGDI, it was even more silly, since they were making games based off someone else's IP. What made them think they'd ever get the chance to do that original, funded KQ game? I mean really?
Ego?
being naive?
We didn't know when we started what it took to make a game. Then, we eventually realized we weren't going to be able to pull it off, so we decided to break it in 3 parts. Then we realized we weren't going to be able to do so anyways.
So, ego may have something to do with it, but in our case, we were just naive, and then we didn't want to let our ideas go. Heck, this all happened when we were in our early 20s... everything was possible back then.
But hey, that's how Lord of the Rings got made, no? Sometimes, it works.
Oh, I was specifically referring to AGDI in that case, not TSL. AGDI already had a game out by the time they were making KQ2+, and even after KQ2+ was finished and it became apparent they weren't going to be able to start any new remakes, they had every opportunity to rework KQ3+ to flesh out and bring closure to the story line. (Not saying it would have been easy or quick, but it could have been done.) But because of sheer ego, or whatever, they didn't. They just assumed that they were going to be able to get the KQ license as Himalaya and make that last game. Remember how pissed AGC2 was when Telltale got the license? Remember that silly temper tantrum he threw for a few weeks? All that "it should have been us...what a low blow from Telltale" talk? That's what I mean. They really should have known better.
They thought doing free work for fans was going to get them the license? It's not out of the question, but did they even try to get exposure? I found out that Episode 1 of TSL was released before I knew that AGDI had been making remakes the entire time. Besides, Telltale is turning a profit for their rebooted series of games. Why wouldn't they get a license with all of the exposure they have? It was a safe decision on Activision's part. They aren't going to invest in a bigger Adventure project and leave it in the hands of a group that they don't think is capable of succeeding. It's there right to give AGDI the metaphorical middle finger. Why complain about it?
Besides, I would have hated the next 'official' marketed game, to be based on a completely different game universe than the original games, from a series that went out of its way to ignore the original canon...
I wouldn't have bought it, personally...
I was marginally worried about the term 'reboot' used for Telltale games, although reboots are a better way to go (see Castlevania: Lords of Shadow) than, say Star Trek XI trying to merge a reboot with the original, through splitting both universes (and ignoring classic Trek time travel mechanics), or Zelda trying to split the universes in a very convoluted way
But now Telltale says they will be following the established continuity... (whatever this means).
Quote from: Baggins on September 11, 2011, 10:56:49 AM
But now Telltale says they will be following the established continuity... (whatever this means).
It means it's going to have Connor. :S
I would like to see a cameo of Connor... Perhaps as a knight in the kingdom... Doesn't mean he has to be playable...
Doesn't mean the game has to be an action game either...
I personally don't want to play as Connor for this game, consider that in the classic series, every other game used a different character more or less... It would be wrong to have connor twice in a row...
If they tried to make Connor's character more prominent in the series, it might make Mask of Eternity look better to the fans. I liked MoE, and would rather it be on par with any of the other King's Quest games. But Connor's character was so bland in MoE, that I find it to be somewhat of a chore trying to make his character more important to the series. He saved the world, but nobody was around to see it. :P
Ya, and Connor was intended to be more prominent... There is enough suggestions that the next Roberta game might have starred Rosella or Edgar, or Edgar and Connor, and involved a love triangle between the three...
Roberta had no intentions to introduce him to the series, and leave him out of the story in future installments...
QuoteQuotebut nobody was around to see it.
Except Graham and the Daventry Official through the mirror, and the Archons!
BTW, I'll admit that Connor is probably my third favorite KQ character after Graham and Alexander!
He's kinda of composite of those two characters as well! Have you noticed his story is basically the Quest for the Crown retold? Save the kingdom and the king? Both are known as 'Sir Knight'... He and Alexander both say "Zounds" alot! His basic clothes and hairdo are essentially King Graham and Alexander in KQ5!
Yeah, but I meant "physically" see it. The Magic Mirror is cheating.
Think about it Graham, and the rest of the family weren't around to see Rosella save Tamir!
Few saw Graham save Daventry (though they did see him return the treasures).
No one saw Graham 'save' Kolyma... (though they do return there later, so presumably get praise)
No one was around to see Alexander save Llewdor. But he does get to encounter other family members after he saves Daventry!
Graham wasn't around to see Alexander save the Green Isles... (though he got the chance to show up a week later).
No family members were around to see Graham save Serenia, but he also does get a chance to save his family!
No other members of the family were around to see Rosella and Valanice save Etheria! Where was King Graham?
I say the magic mirror is better than nothing, but ya its a shame they never were able to finish the Graham/Connor Knighting ceremony they had planned... The whole 'Connor returns to Daventry' alluded to by the Oracle of the Tree.
It doesn't have to directly be a royal family member. I was talking about anybody at all. Alexander had witnesses to him defeating Alhazred. The Eterians witnessed Rosella and Valanice saving Etheria. All I'm saying is that Connor didn't have many witnesses. They had Graham and his advisor looking through the Magic Mirror, the Archons, and a partially petrified wizard. Out of the three, the wizard was the only one who actually met Connor, and would testify that he was the hero. I don't know much about Archons, but they seem reclusive. I doubt they would meddle in worldly affairs, even if Connor saved them as well. There were some witnesses, but overall, Connor was alone.
Connor had the Archons as witnesses... BTW, the Archons have almost the same role as the gods in Etheria (but for the world of Daventry)!
They actually do appear to meddle with the world's affairs a few times throughout the game... Mostly the Archon, Uriel (appears to Connor multiple times to speak to him, and tell him about Lucreto, etc). Actually its explained that their major point is basically as guardian angels that keep the world in Order, Truth and Light, through "God", represented by the Mask of Eternity... Their purpose is to prevent Chaos, Darkness, and Falsehoods from spreading in the world...
You also learn a bit more about the roles of the Archons by other characters in the game...
The archons also speak to Connor telepathically throughout the game.... Especially once you reach the Temple of the Sun... Urging him on to save the world! Keep in mind that the Archons have been defeated by Lucreto and turned to stone/crystal themselves, and thus can only communicate to Connor in spirit form... Their powers are reduced otherwise.
Even Uriel and a Gate Spirit tests you in the temple of the sun on each level, to make sure you are worthy of going further into the temple. Uriel appears shortly before you enter the inner sanctum to fight Lucreto as well, to give you a few more words of advice, ala Obi-Wan...
It's quite obvious that the Archons know who their savior was, and they were the ones who gave the prophecy of Connor by name to the Ancient Ones, several Millenia before the game! Thus why Prophet Hector even knew Connor by name, and that he would be the Chosen Hero!
Also Connor had many witnesses throughout the game's lands, since he goes about saving each land individually, thus why he has all those heroic titles he earns throughout the game! He was tied to multiple prophecies (which involve saving each land individually)...
QuoteChampion, Sir Champion, The One, Chosen One, Champion of Champions, Champion Eternal, The Deliverer, Enlightened One, Incorruptible One, Champion of Light, Upholder, True Upholder, Upholder of Law and Order, Victorious One, Exalted One, Champion of Righteousness, Righteous One, Anointed One and Sir Knight
Also consider that Graham and the Official, witnessed the initial defeat of the Archons at the hands of Lucreto, the destruction of the mask, and the dark omen of the cataclysm heading their way, before being turned to stone themselves. It's pretty obvious that when they see the mask in a reconstructed form through the mirror, that they would know that Connor was the one who saved them! I know I would be putting two and two together? Considering how my current experience would tie back to my 'last memory', before turning to stone!
Oh, wow. A discussion about KQ2+ decends into another conversation about MoE. Weird.
Bt
Any discussion about KQ can turn to a discussion about any other KQ game, including KQ8... or the next Telltale game... They are all connected to each other some way...
Speaking of KQ8, KQ2+ has a whole sequence devoted to the game, showing the scene of Connor being knighted by Graham soon after he saved the world!
Which in a way was similar to a scene that was originally supposed to be included in KQ8, but was never completed due to budget and time.
So is it really all that weird that a discussion of KQ2+ would include a discussion of KQ8?
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t97/Lambonius/971873-facepalm_display_super.jpg)
Quote from: Lambonius on September 11, 2011, 02:15:43 PM
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t97/Lambonius/971873-facepalm_display_super.jpg)
I see what you did there. :P
Picard is hiding a secret...
Mod Edit: Image removed.
::) Stay classy, Baggins.
Just saying, it doesn't look much like picard, unless you shrink the image down to 1 inch... At that current blurry mosaic state, it looks very different than Picard...
Um, yeah. So...Romancing the Stones and whatnot...
In a general way I liked the changes they made. I liked the new land of Kolyma and I liked the upgraded puzzles. Over all, I really like the whole game. That said, though, there are some very specific changes I was not fond of.
First off, I am not a huge fan of the Father. I strongly dislike the idea of all the villains being tied together as it weakens each of the villains motivations as an individual. And really, the Father was not necessary. They could have just given Hagatha a character and increased motivation. Bringing in the Father just opened up plot lines that will never be resolved. It attempted to create a lore and history of King's Quest that I felt was just out of place exposition at best and unnecessary plot complications at worst.
I also really did not like the changes made to Dracula and the monk. I liked the monk in KQ2, what little there was of him. In the remake he was a backwards intolerant monk who wanted to shun the nonbeliever. Personally, I felt that was kind of a stereotyped character motivation (Oooh! Look at the intolerant religious zealot!) And now the monk's a werewolf who wants to kill the unbeliever. Because I guess he's still a zealot. Except, was the bat one of the forest spirits too? Or was that something sent by the Father because Caldaur didn't want to be a Black Cloak anymore? I don't really know. All I know is that I liked the monk and it bothered me to see him the bad guy.
And I was really, really not a fan of Caldaur. Mainly this is because I strongly dislike the idea that vampires are heroes or antiheroes or anything more than bloodsucking parasites. I'm not a fan of the mystique built up around them because I see them as the original folkloric undead that prey upon the common good of a society. Turning Dracula into Caldaur and having him now become a sympathetic character who then steals the life of Red Riding Hood just rubbed me the wrong way. And I'm not even going to touch the fact that Caldaur's bite magically transforms children into a sexy undead woman who looks stunning in a dress. That was just wrong. And then having Caldaur perform the marriage that originally was done by the monk? Just not right.
Honestly, even if I didn't see vampires as soulless bloodsucking parasites, even if I did "get" the concept of the vampire as a hero, I still wouldn't like that change. It's a very modern concept and feels like a flavor of the month that is now written into the game.
Outside of those major changes, there's very little I didn't like in the game. Some of the writing I wasn't fond of. In particular I don't like the poetry that is attempted in the game. The door's poem, Valanice's words in the sand, and a few other places just don't sound right. The poetry always feels rushed in its cadence and the rhymes sound forced. I had the same issues with KQ3 Redux. I'm just not a fan when the game writer attempts poetry. Call me a snob if you want.
Other than those issues, It's a really fun game. I particularly liked the sky spirit challenges. And in spite of turning a bloodsucker into the good guy, I did like the fact that the game did tie grandma and Dracula together instead of just having her keep his stuff under her bed. I also liked the fact that the ghosts also had a purpose now. I liked the expanded undersea kingdom and the fact that you now deal with the evil enchanter and the dwarf. Over all, it's a really great game.
Quote from: Lambonius on September 11, 2011, 08:04:16 AMBut because of sheer ego, or whatever, they didn't. They just assumed that they were going to be able to get the KQ license as Himalaya and make that last game.
That's not really fair. They weren't made out of ego, it was just fun. They didn't "start" a new canon and hope to be able to finish it later on. It was just fun. I thought it was fun.
QuoteRemember how pissed AGC2 was when Telltale got the license? Remember that silly temper tantrum he threw for a few weeks? All that "it should have been us...what a low blow from Telltale" talk? That's what I mean. They really should have known better.
You can't say "they" and "AGC2" in the same sentence when regarding AGDI/Himalaya. It's more than one man.
Quote from: MusicallyInspired on September 11, 2011, 11:28:52 PM
Quote from: Lambonius on September 11, 2011, 08:04:16 AMBut because of sheer ego, or whatever, they didn't. They just assumed that they were going to be able to get the KQ license as Himalaya and make that last game.
That's not really fair. They weren't made out of ego, it was just fun. They didn't "start" a new canon and hope to be able to finish it later on. It was just fun. I thought it was fun.
QuoteRemember how pissed AGC2 was when Telltale got the license? Remember that silly temper tantrum he threw for a few weeks? All that "it should have been us...what a low blow from Telltale" talk? That's what I mean. They really should have known better.
You can't say "they" and "AGC2" in the same sentence when regarding AGDI/Himalaya. It's more than one man.
Alright alright, fair enough. I am, of course, exaggerating (perish the thought!) I'm just basing my comments on stuff I had read (or at least, thought I had read) over on the AGDI boards and elsewhere, where it was said that the plan was always to finish The Father storyline in an original game set at some unspecified future date later in the timeline of the series, but that because of not being able to be paid to do so, the game would not be able to see the light of day. In fact, I do think it was AGC2 that said this, but I'd have to do some digging to find the quote. I know AGDI/Himalaya is more than one man, but honestly, AGC2 has always seemed like kind of the unofficial public voice of your group/company--it's hard not to take what he says as the official position of AGDI.
After being given warnings about violating the forum guidelines, Baggins has continued to violate them, and his account has been suspended. This decision is not up for debate, and if you feel the need to discuss it, please do so via PM and not in the forum proper.
And we now return you to the thread for discussing KQ2+.
I know. Especially due to the fact that Erpy has been MIA for a while doesn't help that too much. AGD2 really is the only public voice.
And I think you're mixing up a couple different quotes. He's said in the past that there was a game planned to wrap up the story arc. But it was a separate quote where he said working on free remakes is not feasible anymore and with the amount of quality put into the games they wouldn't be able to do it for free. I don't recall a moment where he said basically that he wanted to get paid for making a game to conclude The Father storyline. I'm not saying he doesn't think that (I have no idea!), but he hasn't said it.
Chris is a cool guy. Whatever he thought of Telltale, he's had his reasons. We recently started to exchange emails periodically, and we've discussed the whole Telltale thing in depth. It's not really a case of ego.
I'm amazed I haven't been banned yet. I think it's because I'm too lovable. I'm like the puppy who keeps knocking over the garbage--you just can't stay mad at me, despite the messes I make. lol
I'm a little surprised myself. :P But, you haven't attempted to post porn yet, so you have that going for you.
Maybe if we had a rule about being a broken record...
but we don't, so for now, you can bark away all you want like the little puppy locked in the bathroom that never stops :)
Quote from: Lambonius on September 12, 2011, 11:31:31 AM
I'm amazed I haven't been banned yet. I think it's because I'm too lovable. I'm like the puppy who keeps knocking over the garbage--you just can't stay mad at me, despite the messes I make. lol
It's the only reason we still tolerate you Lambonius. ;)
That, and your awesome sig. :thumbsup:
I enjoyed it. :) AGD fleshed out a lot and it made it a much better game. :) I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing if more characters have depth and I enjoyed the new areas. :) The prophecy thing might have gone a bit far, but I know many players who would find it more satisfying if everything were connected.
One of the big things I dug about KQ2+ was the re-integration of the violent/non-violent puzzle solution options for Graham. That was a nice homage to the originals. Didn't they also have multiple endings in there, depending on whether or not you killed the Count or were wearing the ring or not? Maybe I'm imagining that.
No, they did. :) It worked remarkably well. :)
You can't kill the Count in KQ2+. The only multiple endings are the various ways you can kill off Hagatha at the end. I believe there are 3 ways depending on if you recovered the youth potion, if you gave it to her, and if you gave it to her with cat hair in it.