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The Royal Archives => Fan Feedback => Topic started by: Lambonius on November 09, 2011, 01:33:05 PM

Title: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: Lambonius on November 09, 2011, 01:33:05 PM
Drowning in tragedy, despair, melodrama = lame and uninspired.  I won't go back into the whole KQ=light-hearted fairy tales NOT character-driven emo drama argument again--I'll just leave it at that.  Basically, you have a case of fangame developers not only misunderstanding the nature of the original series, but now misreading the desires of the target audience.  There was a reason why arcade sequences were unpopular in adventure games back in the day, and that still holds true today.  But again, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsYJyVEUaC4
Title: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: MikPal on November 09, 2011, 01:36:49 PM
Drowning in tragedy, despair, melodrama = lame and uninspired.

"King Graham is dying! Can a videogame make you cry?"
Title: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on November 09, 2011, 01:38:41 PM
Drowning in tragedy, despair, melodrama = lame and uninspired.

"King Graham is dying! Can a videogame make you cry?"

Still, Graham didn't go into a ten minute, overly dramatic monologue as he was collapsing. Nor did Rosella spend the whole game wallowing in despair.
Title: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: Cez on November 09, 2011, 01:44:15 PM
Drowning in tragedy, despair, melodrama = lame and uninspired.  I won't go back into the whole KQ=light-hearted fairy tales NOT character-driven emo drama argument again--I'll just leave it at that.  Basically, you have a case of fangame developers not only misunderstanding the nature of the original series, but now misreading the desires of the target audience.  There was a reason why arcade sequences were unpopular in adventure games back in the day, and that still holds true today.  But again, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsYJyVEUaC4

Yeah, I'm sorry I raped your childhood. It obviously disturbs you since you never stop posting about it. However,  in particular, your comments just make it so much funner to do it :)

*dances away* It's my partyyyy, and I'll cry if I want to, cry if I want to, you would cry too if it happened to you!
Title: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on November 09, 2011, 01:48:17 PM
Drowning in tragedy, despair, melodrama = lame and uninspired.  I won't go back into the whole KQ=light-hearted fairy tales NOT character-driven emo drama argument again--I'll just leave it at that.  Basically, you have a case of fangame developers not only misunderstanding the nature of the original series, but now misreading the desires of the target audience.  There was a reason why arcade sequences were unpopular in adventure games back in the day, and that still holds true today.  But again, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsYJyVEUaC4

Yeah, I'm sorry I raped your childhood. It obviously disturbs you since you never stop posting about it. However,  in particular, your comments just make it so much funner to do it :)

*dances away* It's my partyyyy, and I'll cry if I want to, cry if I want to, you would cry too if it happened to you!

Yes, well, using the corpse of a dead, beloved series to prop up an overly dramatic, teen angst story which had really nothing to do with the original series was a good way to get you lots n' lots of PR. The Silver Lining, an original project, would not have gotten you nearly as much PR. Clever in that. Too bad the storywriting isn't as clever as the PR schemes.
Title: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: KatieHal on November 09, 2011, 01:50:42 PM
Let's not continue to beat that dead horse, shall we? We're well aware the game isn't to your liking, Perceval.
Title: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: Cez on November 09, 2011, 01:51:18 PM
Drowning in tragedy, despair, melodrama = lame and uninspired.  I won't go back into the whole KQ=light-hearted fairy tales NOT character-driven emo drama argument again--I'll just leave it at that.  Basically, you have a case of fangame developers not only misunderstanding the nature of the original series, but now misreading the desires of the target audience.  There was a reason why arcade sequences were unpopular in adventure games back in the day, and that still holds true today.  But again, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsYJyVEUaC4

Yeah, I'm sorry I raped your childhood. It obviously disturbs you since you never stop posting about it. However,  in particular, your comments just make it so much funner to do it :)

*dances away* It's my partyyyy, and I'll cry if I want to, cry if I want to, you would cry too if it happened to you!

Yes, well, using the corpse of a dead, beloved series to prop up an overly dramatic, teen angst story which had really nothing to do with the original series was a good way to get you lots n' lots of PR. The Silver Lining, an original project, would not have gotten you nearly as much PR. Clever in that. Too bad the storywriting isn't as clever as the PR schemes.

I thought we were done with the bashing on TSL after the "sincere" apology letter. Good to see how you are a man that keeps to his word :)

Anyhow, you are more than welcome to send me a PM to continue this over somewhere else. Let the interested fans continue to talk about Episode 4.
Title: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on November 09, 2011, 01:56:28 PM
Drowning in tragedy, despair, melodrama = lame and uninspired.  I won't go back into the whole KQ=light-hearted fairy tales NOT character-driven emo drama argument again--I'll just leave it at that.  Basically, you have a case of fangame developers not only misunderstanding the nature of the original series, but now misreading the desires of the target audience.  There was a reason why arcade sequences were unpopular in adventure games back in the day, and that still holds true today.  But again, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsYJyVEUaC4

Yeah, I'm sorry I raped your childhood. It obviously disturbs you since you never stop posting about it. However,  in particular, your comments just make it so much funner to do it :)

*dances away* It's my partyyyy, and I'll cry if I want to, cry if I want to, you would cry too if it happened to you!

Yes, well, using the corpse of a dead, beloved series to prop up an overly dramatic, teen angst story which had really nothing to do with the original series was a good way to get you lots n' lots of PR. The Silver Lining, an original project, would not have gotten you nearly as much PR. Clever in that. Too bad the storywriting isn't as clever as the PR schemes.

I thought we were done with the bashing on TSL after the "sincere" apology letter. Good to see how you are a man that keeps to his word :)

And TSL Episode 4 came out in October. And each episode was to come out every 2-3 months. And the game was to come out in Winter 2006. What was that about keeping one's word?
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: KatieHal on November 09, 2011, 02:09:03 PM
Oh, man. You're right.

So, hey, who put out the two C&Ds on you? And what advice can you offer on a pipeline for artwork and animations and programming and recruiting and PR with a volunteer team? We're always looking for input to improve our process. :)
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on November 09, 2011, 04:26:08 PM
Oh, man. You're right.

So, hey, who put out the two C&Ds on you? And what advice can you offer on a pipeline for artwork and animations and programming and recruiting and PR with a volunteer team? We're always looking for input to improve our process. :)

Unless I'm not mistaken, the second C&D was lifted in February 2010. Around which time you said the game was "90% complete". That's soon to be two years ago.

Also, each C&D only lasted a few months. First one was from September to November 29th 2005. Two months. Somehow those two months set you back five years from releasing the first chapter, even though that September you promised the game would be out that coming Winter. Pretty sure the duration of the second was under six months as well.

Perhaps rewriting chapters from scratch (DD said somewhere you're writing Ep 5 from scratch or some such thing?) and doing crazy stuff like changing the engine and storyline around midway during the development could help lessen development time. Or thinking that you could produce a "1,500 page" game with a fan team's budget.

Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: Numbers on November 09, 2011, 04:51:12 PM
Perceval is pissed at the TSL team...Lambonius is pissed at the TSL team...now all we need to do is to un-ban Baggins so he can nitpick at inconsequential details and it'll be just like old times!
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: Cez on November 09, 2011, 04:56:59 PM

Or thinking that you could produce a "1,500 page" game with a fan team's budget.



Hey, at least we've certainly done a lot more than you have :)

And what do you care about when the episodes get released anyways? I thought you didn't even play them.

Hmmm...
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: wilco64256 on November 09, 2011, 05:07:45 PM
The script I read is 1,537 pages.  Must be the font.
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: Lambonius on November 09, 2011, 07:02:51 PM
Lol...this thread is awesome.  :)
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: Fierce Deity on November 09, 2011, 11:34:49 PM
This being semi-off-topic, I feel the need to point out that Lambonius has a great taste in music. Agreed?
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: Lambonius on November 09, 2011, 11:43:49 PM
This being semi-off-topic, I feel the need to point out that Lambonius has a great taste in music. Agreed?

Hahahaha...hell yes!

But, of course, I was only inspired by Cesar's words.  :)
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: Damar on November 10, 2011, 05:55:00 AM
This being semi-off-topic, I feel the need to point out that Lambonius has a great taste in music. Agreed?

Absolutely.  I'm kind of hoping that he'll keep playing music while I sit here, eat my popcorn, and watch the pissing contest that is unfolding.
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: snabbott on November 10, 2011, 07:52:15 AM
The script I read is 1,537 pages.  Must be the font.
I didn't get one! :(

(Posted on: November 10, 2011, 09:46:40 AM)


Unless I'm not mistaken, the second C&D was lifted in February 2010. Around which time you said the game was "90% complete". That's soon to be two years ago.
At that time, what was going to end up being released was the current Episodes 1-4 except without most of the puzzles and explanations. The ending would have been where Episode 4 ends - pretty much a cliffhanger. So, yeah, they could have just polished up what they had and released it, but they decided to try to make a complete story out of it.

Also, each C&D only lasted a few months. First one was from September to November 29th 2005. Two months. Somehow those two months set you back five years from releasing the first chapter, even though that September you promised the game would be out that coming Winter. Pretty sure the duration of the second was under six months as well.

Perhaps rewriting chapters from scratch (DD said somewhere you're writing Ep 5 from scratch or some such thing?) and doing crazy stuff like changing the engine and storyline around midway during the development could help lessen development time. Or thinking that you could produce a "1,500 page" game with a fan team's budget.
So a group of people who had never made a game before had completely unrealistic expectations for what could be done. You live and learn. At least they're actually producing the game. How many fan projects never see the light of day?
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: writerlove on November 10, 2011, 10:08:12 AM
The script I read is 1,537 pages.  Must be the font.
I didn't get one! :(

(Posted on: November 10, 2011, 09:46:40 AM)


Unless I'm not mistaken, the second C&D was lifted in February 2010. Around which time you said the game was "90% complete". That's soon to be two years ago.
At that time, what was going to end up being released was the current Episodes 1-4 except without most of the puzzles and explanations. The ending would have been where Episode 4 ends - pretty much a cliffhanger. So, yeah, they could have just polished up what they had and released it, but they decided to try to make a complete story out of it.

Also, each C&D only lasted a few months. First one was from September to November 29th 2005. Two months. Somehow those two months set you back five years from releasing the first chapter, even though that September you promised the game would be out that coming Winter. Pretty sure the duration of the second was under six months as well.

Perhaps rewriting chapters from scratch (DD said somewhere you're writing Ep 5 from scratch or some such thing?) and doing crazy stuff like changing the engine and storyline around midway during the development could help lessen development time. Or thinking that you could produce a "1,500 page" game with a fan team's budget.
So a group of people who had never made a game before had completely unrealistic expectations for what could be done. You live and learn. At least they're actually producing the game. How many fan projects never see the light of day?

Cesar emailed the staff a script of Episode 5 back in May. That one was 97 pages. I don't know which one you read Weldon. Steve I still have my copy if you want one.

Also, these people are doing this in their SPARE time. It would be different if this was their job. But 99% of the team has a day job, and everyone has lives outside of this. That's the beauty of it. The fact that a group of talented and devoted fans came together to revive one of their favorite game series. Is it perfect? No. But they have tried their rears off to make it so.  Plus they never had made a game before so they didn't know what  to expect. It's a learning process. You learn what you would like to produce and what you can realistically do. Honestly, overcoming two C&Ds and having now produced 4 of the 5 promised episodes is pretty flippin amazing!
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: KatieHal on November 10, 2011, 11:06:04 AM
I think Weldon was joking around ;)

But the 1500+ page script was the original, full, 9 chapters of design. And as we've made clear, a good 2/3rds of that at least was cut when we decided to bring it down to 5 episodes covering approx. the first 3 of those chapters. So, as we've also made clear, that meant not just cuts but re-writes.

As Stephen said, we then also combined what would've been Episode 4 + 5 into Episode 4, and wrote a new Episode 5 from scratch (the general idea of what happens in Episode 5 existed already, but the script was new, the puzzles were changed, and the plot presented in it was also greatly changed). It's also now being brought into a new engine, Unity, where all the programming etc will happen, rather than Torque which we used previously.
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: snabbott on November 10, 2011, 11:18:41 AM
Cesar emailed the staff a script of Episode 5 back in May. That one was 97 pages. I don't know which one you read Weldon. Steve I still have my copy if you want one.
Yeah - I have that one. As for the full script, I guess we can only hope it can be recycled for a commercial (non-KQ) game.
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: Lambonius on November 10, 2011, 03:46:27 PM
I'm genuinely curious: wouldn't it normally be considered to be an incredibly bad idea to completely change game engines mid-development?  I don't understand how this can feasibly work.
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: crayauchtin on November 10, 2011, 04:04:51 PM
So, just out of curiousity....

How did this thread end up in the typically light and fun asylum?

Because you posted a link to a YouTube video that was completely unrelated to the topic or are we now just trying to have all these overdone arguments in *every* section of the forums? Because, seriously, I'd rather we just make a section of the forums called "I Don't Like TSL and I Don't Want to Shut Up About It" and let you boys play around in there.

.....sorry, I was actually expecting something fun in this thread. WHY did you have to mislead me, Lamb? WHY?!
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: KatieHal on November 10, 2011, 04:37:36 PM
To answer Lamb's question: normally, yes.

But the assets for Episode 5 are all completely standalone, with a few exceptions for main character designs & animations. Unlike 1-4, where the settings, scenes, characters, etc, were all the same and shared between episodes, this one doesn't need any of that.

Additionally, Unity from what I understand is vastly better suited to our purposes than Torque, enough that we plan to use it for future projects (and have done some work in it already), so the earlier we can get started on it the better, really.

See also Petter's more detailed answer! http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=11349.msg333231#msg333231
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: snabbott on November 10, 2011, 05:47:23 PM
To answer cray's question, it's here because one of the mods/admins (Cez maybe?) split it off from another thread. Apparently they thought it had entertainment value. :P
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: crayauchtin on November 10, 2011, 05:59:37 PM
Well it IS a good song, but the actual thread itself? No.

And since the asylum is for crazy, fun antics.... I would suggest this belongs more in "Off Topic" or, since it's related to TSL, in "Fan Feedback" or in "General Discussion" -- or as I suggested, a new section of the forum like "I Know the Horse is Dead But I Can't Stop Hitting It With This Stick".

It would be nice if there was one section of the forum that was reliably fun and not containing this overdone BS nonsense argument. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: Cez on November 10, 2011, 06:12:23 PM
I'm genuinely curious: wouldn't it normally be considered to be an incredibly bad idea to completely change game engines mid-development?  I don't understand how this can feasibly work.

Yeah, it would normally, but like Katie said, Episode 5 is mostly standalone. Originally, we weren't going to, but because we are building all sequences from scratch... we are building new tools for Cognition that are going to be making putting together these sequences so much easier. Because that's what takes us the most time to do with the outdated torque system where it all comes down to just one guy in the team, with this new Unity system anyone that has an idea of how a non-linear editing system works will be able to put sequences together, allowing us to have as many guys as we want working on them as opposed to just the one guy that knows how to do it right now.

That's the brief of it. Yeah, we'll have our own set of issues with porting the interface, save/load system, etc, but so far, it hasn't been that bad.
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: wilco64256 on November 10, 2011, 06:16:20 PM
Yeah normally this would not at all be the case, but between our incredible frustration with using the outdated and unsupported Torque stuff and the fact that we're already shifting to Unity for everything else anyway it was an easy choice.
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: Delling on November 11, 2011, 07:20:20 AM
I am at once confused ... and deeply amused. :thumbsup: Good work, everyone! (http://www.gotfuturama.com/Multimedia/EpisodeSounds/1ACV11/01.mp3)
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: Lambonius on November 12, 2011, 08:48:09 PM
I would just be concerned about potential compatibility issues and such, especially for people who might be playing the game with outdated hardware.  Would a game made in Unity have higher system requirements, for example?

Oh and uh...here.  This is a pretty fun song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulKPDPSDNSc
Title: Re: Fun with Lamb and DMD
Post by: Damar on November 17, 2011, 07:07:34 PM
So, Lamb, question for you.  I remember you posting a while back that you hadn't played TSL yet.  I don't remember if it was because you didn't think you'd like it or if it was because you'd rather play all the chapters at once instead of waiting (or both.)  So, do you plan on playing it?  Because if you do, I know I'm looking forward to the epically snarky feedback wall of post that will no doubt ensue.