POStudios Forum

Answer this Survey Thank yoU!

I didn't. :P

D :

Quote from: Jafar on December 27, 2012, 11:37:41 PM
I didn't. :P

Nor do I. XD The epic battle of epicness was kind of unintuitive and felt a bit out of place. :P I think doing Greek has made me go "Oh there's a prophecy? Really? How...artificially epic." Greek has ruined so many things in my life. :(

Welcome to the forums, djthat87! I liked Ep 4, though I may be biased;)

Also, I'm gonna move this to the TSL forum. :)

I loved TSL episode 4, otherwise why would I be here?

Quote from: GrahamRocks! on December 28, 2012, 12:10:39 PM
I loved TSL episode 4, otherwise why would I be here?

Aw man, I guess I'm not allowed to stay here anymore. :(

*jumps off the screen* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWIsD58xzes#t=9s)

LOL, I did not know Sonic could or would just do that!

Aw, you know you're still welcome here! All we ask is that if there's criticism, make it constructive criticism. :) (And I'm sure it's entirely possible you've elaborated on that in the feedback thread.)

So now I'm actually interested in knowing why you (whoever voted) liked it or why you didn't?

Why? Because the writing improves each time an episode is released. Because ever since learning about KQ over a year ago, and seeing how bad MoE ended up being, I wanted to see if that was truly it for KQ and that it would end at such a lackluster note.

I found you through TV Tropes (and Paw), and haven't looked back since. Even your non-TSL stuff has been surprisingly good- I fully admit, when I first heard about Cognition, I thought to myself, "It's not King's Quest or generally Sierra, so I think I'll pass." But then I saw the trailers and Toegoff's livestream... and immediately changed my mind.

I would say that my favorite parts of TSL in general is the writing, the voice acting (Jason Michael Victor= Perfect voice for Graham bar none!), and the visuals and music (especially from episode 3 onward. I can't wait until volume two of the soundtrack comes out!)

I love how you give each character (even formerly minor ones) a little personality. Although I do admit that the animations are a little...off at times, I chalk that up to the engine you guys are using, not your designers. The dialogue usually distracts me from it anyway.

As for the Pandora's Box puzzle and the final fight, I didn't really think they were all that bad! Of course, this could because I was a wimp and played on Easy, plus I had a paper next to me that had all the symbols on it that helped out on what they looked like. It only took 20 minutes for me to solve it (I think I was taking it slow and concentrating), although it didn't feel that long. Felt like half of that. As for the fight, that was also easy once I knew how exactly to do it and the only thing that still puzzles me is when it goes to the overhead view of the boat and it starts rocking back and forth. Makes me nervous.

Deloria- If learning Greek makes one so critical and negative of everything, then I don't want to learn it!

I don't think learning Greek is the only way to discover that the prophecy theme has been utilized way too much in fantasy.

I ultimately voted no.  There was a lot I liked about this episode, certainly more than I didn't like.  But, I can't ignore that 90% of what I remember of episode 4 after all this time is Pandora's Box and that horrible final fight.  I guess that time has not changed my reaction at all.  I still feel just as strongly about it.  Those events, the fight in particular, really killed the episode for me.  I won't bother reiterating why as I already did my constructive criticism in depth and repeatedly back when the episode first came out.  Anyone who is curious or wants a refresher can check out the Episode 4 Feedback and Feedback on the Fight topics.

It's really too bad, though, because there was a lot I did like about the episode.  Just can't past those fatal flaws.

Quote from: GrahamRocks! on December 28, 2012, 07:14:05 PM
Deloria- If learning Greek makes one so critical and negative of everything, then I don't want to learn it!

Actually, learning Greek gave me a greater appreciation for the good and original, as well as the ability to distinguish between what is good art/poetry/tragedy and what isn't. I probably would have enjoyed something like Episode 4 if I hadn't had this experience, but I don't consider myself worse off for not being capable of liking it because I can now think critically about these things.

Quote from: Cez on December 28, 2012, 06:14:42 PM
So now I'm actually interested in knowing why you (whoever voted) liked it or why you didn't?

I've put my thought processes in spoiler tags because I don't want to overwhelm people who aren't interested in why I have these conclusions, merely the fact that I have them.

[spoiler]
The point of a prophecy is not being able to avoid your destiny, yet people invariably try to thwart it. I assume this was done in TSL by having Valanice locked in the tower, but it wasn't nearly obvious enough that that was the reason this was being done in order for it to be significant narratively. Also, it makes no sense from a narrative point of view because we are to assume the prophecy was something along the lines of "A black cloak with silver cloak ties will open the box". If Valanice is indeed the one mentioned, she will have silver cloak leanings and open the box no matter what happens, and she needn't be locked in the tower. People are only ever exiled/wounded/attempted to be killed if something negative promises to happen if they stay around. In fact, people never act on prophecies in their favour because they'd be worried about mucking up the prophecy. On a related note, a prophecy that has a positive outcome is never given to the person for whom that outcome would be positive, though it might seem like it at the time.
[/spoiler]

Basically, from the point of view of a prophetic epic tragedy, it kind of fails on several levels. And I really disliked the battle on the ship, but I would have disliked that anywhere. :P It's just not my sort of thing. But that's not the designers' fault.

I am also aware that the designers have one episode to finish the plot, meaning there is almost certainly going to be a Deus Ex Machina event (oh sure, you can take that from Euripides), possibly in the form of a failsafe in the box reimprisoning everyone. Should this also be the case, I will again view it as an example of lazy storytelling, because this is only satisfying in epics in which there are actual gods involved or at least mentioned from the start.

I don't wish to come off as ungrateful or wholly negative; I know a huge amount of effort and love have been poured into this project and I support you guys completely. I think the art was beautiful, the voices were mostly very good and the soundtrack was breathtaking. I just have trouble taking the storyline seriously as a prophetic epic (or anything else) because it simply isn't and it tries very hard to be. I feel as though this could have been curtailed quite a bit with some research into how these things work, but I also realise that the entire thing was cut back enormously from what the script originally intended it to be and you had to scrape something together from whatever remained of the original plot.

Quote from: Damar on December 30, 2012, 07:47:23 AM
I don't think learning Greek is the only way to discover that the prophecy theme has been utilized way too much in fantasy.

Of course it's not. :) Any sort of education which allows people to think can do that; for me it was just studying the literature and language of a place that's used these devices more than others.

Well... to be honest, I have a high tolerance for most things: "annoying" characters and Fantasy cliches are just two of them. 

Quote from: Deloria on December 30, 2012, 12:22:10 PM
I am also aware that the designers have one episode to finish the plot, meaning there is almost certainly going to be a Deus Ex Machina event (oh sure, you can take that from Euripides), possibly in the form of a failsafe in the box reimprisoning everyone. Should this also be the case, I will again view it as an example of lazy storytelling, because this is only satisfying in epics in which there are actual gods involved or at least mentioned from the start.

I don't wish to come off as ungrateful or wholly negative; I know a huge amount of effort and love have been poured into this project and I support you guys completely. I think the art was beautiful, the voices were mostly very good and the soundtrack was breathtaking. I just have trouble taking the storyline seriously as a prophetic epic (or anything else) because it simply isn't and it tries very hard to be. I feel as though this could have been curtailed quite a bit with some research into how these things work, but I also realise that the entire thing was cut back enormously from what the script originally intended it to be and you had to scrape something together from whatever remained of the original plot.

I agree with this, and I fear it will become a problem in the final episode.  I get that a lot was cut, and that certainly informs some things, but it's not an excuse.  When you cut stuff, you've got to make sure the story as it remains is satisfying and makes sense.  At this point I also fear that everything is going to come down to a Deus Ex Machina and that will be deeply unsatisfying and may still leave other inconsistencies.  And that's a legitimate story and design issue.  I'm reminded of some story inconsistencies in KQ7, like Valanice dropping everything to rescue a wheel of cheese.  Apologists will go on about how there was more to the story and all that to which I respond, it doesn't matter.  In the game that exists Valanice is fixated on a wheel of cheese for no reason.  Either the story as it was needs to be told, or it needs to be fixed so that the stuff that was cut no longer has an impact.  In Silver Lining, it's been mentioned that time running backwards was part of a bigger plot that was cut.  I think it's safe to question whether, since the bigger plot was cut, the entire concept of time running backwards should have just been removed as well because it just serves to confuse and distract now.

And I do think some of that came out more in episode 4 as well.  I think that this was the first episode that I started to question whether some of these oddities would or could be totally tied up.  There was a lot to like about episode 4, but its flaws overwhelmed it and actually made me concerned about episode 5 a little.  Not just because of the Deus Ex Machina issue and the fact that it may not be able to tie up all loose ends, but also because the boss fight talisman is obviously going to play a major role, which may mean episode 5 will largely be more fights and less adventure gaming.

I was the (first) "So So" vote.  Were you to ask about episodes 2 and 3 I would have given an emphatic "YES."

I don't want to waste space quibbling about every aspect of episode 4 but I felt the "zodiac symbol construction" puzzle was far too complex for my poor eyes.   I understood the mechanics; the solution was obvious.   But it took me 64 minutes to complete it.   It seemed more like a time waster than a solid puzzle.   The ending boss fight, while a bit unintuitive, was a breeze by comparison.

Am I the only one who didn't mind the Pandora's Box puzzle/final fight very much? I guess so, because EVERYONE has been complaining about it except me!

Speaking of the final fight, there is one thing I'm puzzled about: When it goes to the overhead view of the ship and Shadrack says, "Hold STILL Graham!" and starts rocking the boat, I wasn't sure how I was supposed to "resist" him screwing around with my Dream Amulet because he kept making it spin in a circle and I fall.

Other than that, it was a good fight imo.

I wonder what poor Hassan was thinking during this scene though?

We're not going for a Deus Ex Machina ending, I can at least sat that much. And the story was cut down, yes, but also retooled to work in the cut-down version. It wasn't a pure removal of a chunk of story without any rewriting. In fact, Episode 5 was written entirely new a year or two ago to make sure it worked.

More specifically, re: who could open the box, btw, it was "a Black Cloak with good intentions" (in this case, Valanice wanting to save her daughter). Only a Silver Cloak could find the box, however, which was Rosella. There's more about the prophecy, but as that's covered largely in Ep 5, I won't go into it. But I did want to clarify those two parts at least.

Not that I was all that worried myself, but I still find that a relief. I trust you guys wholehearted in what you're doing.

What Dues Ex is needed?

Remember that the current locations of the Silver Cloaks are unknown and the game actually tells two major contradictory tales on how just exactly the box even works.

For example one story ends with the Silver Cloaks being gone (sealed inside the box too)

The other indicates that there are still Silver Cloaks around

Plus don't forget that Valanese is a fully trained Druid and Black Cloak of impressive power. Rosella and Alexander are both kinds of cloaks (with Alexander being mystically trained). Graham is strongly hinted to not remember he is a Silver Cloak. Heck Graham humiliated Santrak in a straight up magical duel with no experience (sorta), I think he firmly lost his villain credits.

Now I'd mention their allies but I think we firmly established that no one wants to help the Daventry Family and Graham certainly doesn't want their help back. So we can eliminate them from the solutions pile.

If anything my biggest worry for Episode 5 is that it may not attempt to find a deeper meaning. That it was just a set up to a standard ending rather then the final ending.

It seems to be building up to a major twist.

Anyhow I liked Part 4

QuoteI'm reminded of some story inconsistencies in KQ7, like Valanice dropping everything to rescue a wheel of cheese.

It was the moon itself, it needed to be saved.

Valanice was imprisoned because she did something bad within the Black Cloaks. Manannan mentions it to her. Shadrack realizes that this actually works according to their plans, as Graham would later come to save her, and then the two societies would merge.

The "problem" with this Prophecy is that it's a two-sided Prophecy. There are two possible outcomes to it, and there's a reason why the Fates decided it to be that way. More in Ep5 :)

I will say however that, regardless of TSL, if knowing the greeks make you unappreciative of stories that contradict what was established by them, that's a very square way of seeing things. In the case of TSL, we are not even talking about the same Universe. The "Greeks" do not exist as we know them in the Universe of Daventry.

And no, no Deus Ex Machina. It's all done by the Daventry family.

Dang it Cez, you now deconfirmed the ending I was hoping was going to happen.

No really you just did >_<

That everyone dies Greek tragedy style...?


I also want to reiterate, even (especially?) for those who didn't like some of the puzzles, that yes, we really do hear you and listen :) And getting the detailed feedback does help a lot. We've been taking that into consideration throughout TSL and now with Cognition and will continue to do so. So, thank you for this!

Cesar:
Greek tragedy is still relevant today because it's about intersocietal conflicts and the situations in which individuals find themselves while they try to function within a society that may work against them. This is relevant to almost every plot out there. What makes these stories special is not the fact that they are Greek, but rather that they are universally valid; they are simply examples of very well told stories and are used as archetypes for good stories. The only stories they will make you think negatively about are stories that may have been lacking to begin with; I have just recently been given the vocabulary and thought processes to explain why they are not good stories, but that doesn't mean I've not always thought them bad.

It's not that I like Greek tragedies because they are Greek or dislike the direction TSL's plot has taken because it isn't "Greek". It's that I feel more educated as to what I consider good or bad with regard to storytelling because I've been exposed to tragedies and stories, the plots of which have been refined extensively through generations of oral tradition and mythological culture. These things are good because of generations of trial and error in storytelling. Most modern things can't compare because they haven't been honed and refined over nearly the same amount of time - but they can learn from them. I do think TSL is a very ambitious project and I do think it's an incredible feat. I just don't really like your take on prophecies. However, I do not know what the last episode holds and I'm very much looking forward to experiencing that. :) When examining the whole story in context I'm sure it's a lot better than just the fragmented version of it I have now. :)

Katie:
Katie, not all Greek tragedies end in -or even necessarily include- death. Greek theatre is very much about society and how individuals operate within it, as stated before. In tragedies, this works by looking at an individual who operates in society and how an act of hubris the individual commits leads to his or her existing outside of society, sometimes, but usually not, by dying. There are a few exceptions where most people end up dying, such as Antigone, but it's really not the norm. :P English and Renaissance tragedy (like Shakespeare) is actually much bloodier/full of death and tends to focus not on individuals falling from their station in society, but actually about dying. :)

Edit: I was grumpy. I'm sorry.

Quote from: Neonivek on January 03, 2013, 03:56:31 PM
Dang it Cez, you now deconfirmed the ending I was hoping was going to happen.

No really you just did >_<

Oh really? And what was your crazy theory this time, Neo?

Don't worry, they might surprise you.

Relevant --absolutely.

A guide that must be followed to the t. --well, that would be extremely boring if you knew what exactly to expect from every story? The Greek Classics had their time, they are still relevant and influential through these days, but we cannot be forever reusing the same elements in the same way as they were originally created. Otherwise, what's the point of writing new stories?

And yes, there will be another encounter in the last episode of the game, but this one will definitely strip down the more reflex/action elements found in Ep4.

Quote from: GrahamRocks! on January 03, 2013, 05:02:06 PM

Quote from: Neonivek on January 03, 2013, 03:56:31 PM
Dang it Cez, you now deconfirmed the ending I was hoping was going to happen.

No really you just did >_<

Oh really? And what was your crazy theory this time, Neo?

Don't worry, they might surprise you.

The "None of the above" ending where Graham betrays the storybook nature of his existance to create a balance between light and darkness. Thus ending the story once and for all.

Instead of chosing between light and darkness and following what fate has perscribed.

This writing discussion makes me laugh.  Just a reminder that TSL is fan fiction, with all the usual cliches that that entails.  Surprise, surprise, it doesn't hold up to classical literature.  ;)

The Greek Tragedy thing was a joke, in any case.

Quote from: Lambonius on January 04, 2013, 01:39:51 PM
This writing discussion makes me laugh.  Just a reminder that TSL is fan fiction, with all the usual cliches that that entails.  Surprise, surprise, it doesn't hold up to classical literature.  ;)

And it's very, very GOOD fan fiction to me! I consider it canon practically. Although, I do have to ask two minor things about the characterization of Graham (whom except for these two things is really spot on, game-wise and Companion-wise) :

1. When you get the candy in episode 2, and you 'look' at it in your inventory, Amy The Narrator says "Graham has never been one for sweets, really." But, according to the Companion, Graham has a HUGE sweet tooth even as an adult. In fact, one of the reasons he goes adventuring so often is so he can exercise off all the food he eats (he actually likes food in general too), since he doesn't want to be known as "King Graham the Overweight".

He still looks pretty handsome as an old man to me regardless.

2. In episode 3 and 4 (I can't remember specifically which one), when Graham is talking to Hakim about his adventure, Graham says, "I'm sorry, my memory isn't what it used to be." even though it's been mentioned before in the Companion that Graham has an EXCELLENT memory which enables him to memorize something from a book from just a glance and is probably part of the reason why he did so good in school. This "I have a terrible memory" thing also bugs me because of the scene where The Ranger (is that his name? or is it just Ranger?) takes his scroll and shows him the story of the War of The Silver Cloaks, because after Graham figures out what's going on (the Black Cloaks messing around with time) he acts like he's never read the scroll or has forgotten what it said already.

King Graham... I love your character, really I do, but sometimes you can be so dumb! 

Well the second can at LEAST be explained that Graham is really really old.

The first COULD be explained that he does looooove sweets but never eats them because he keeps thinking about getting fat. (but yeah that is stretching it)

In regards to these...

1) We only take what was in the games themselves as canon as far as reference material. The Companion information is more touch and go--we did reference it while writing and designing the game, but obviously we put our own spin on a lot of things. (Personally, I find some of the Companion explanations lacking and contradictory, but YMMV.)

2) I'd have to go look at the scenes to remember exactly what was said when...it's been a while! It's possible maybe it has to do with the order you ran into these particular events, maybe? But yeah, I'd need to look at it to answer more firmly. And yes, so far, he's just "The Ranger." :)

Quote from: KatieHal on January 04, 2013, 03:08:42 PM
2) I'd have to go look at the scenes to remember exactly what was said when...it's been a while! It's possible maybe it has to do with the order you ran into these particular events, maybe? But yeah, I'd need to look at it to answer more firmly. And yes, so far, he's just "The Ranger." :)

...You can do it in a different order?

Maybe I misunderstood--did you mean a specific thing he says or that he acts like he doesn't know about the scroll/plan in general?

Uhhh... let me get back to you on that one. I'll have to check again once I get my laptop back.

Anyway, yes, I loved The Silver Lining episodes very much! They aren't perfect of course, but what story is? I can read a story that is rife with cliches as long as I enjoy reading it and going on an adventure.

It's why I love the Inheritance Cycle (even though I've only read half so far but I like what I see), despite that it has Fantasy cliches up the wazoo: I enjoy the story despite that.

It's why I love the Warriors series, despite most stopping after the Power of Three arc because of "too much forbidden love and not enough violence as the older books" (despite there already being quite a bit of the former in the earlier books, and really violence can't solve everything) : I enjoy it because I like the characters and setting.

It's why I love the Star Wars prequels and The Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, despite both enciting cries of "BETRAYAL!!!": I enjoy them because it gives us a chance to see what life was like in the past and how they were later in life respectfully. I fully admit they are cheesy, but I don't care. Yes, I realize both could have been written better, but I think all stories good or bad can be. It doesn't stop me from enjoying it regardless.

Go on, Lamb. Go on. Berate me for liking those things. I dare you! I really wouldn't be surprised since you and I NEVER seem to agree on anything so far, including Star Wars.

If I may ask, are there works of art/stories that you dislike? :) If so, why and what about them bothers you?

Quote from: GrahamRocks! on January 04, 2013, 07:47:41 PM
Go on, Lamb. Go on. Berate me for liking those things. I dare you! I really wouldn't be surprised since you and I NEVER seem to agree on anything so far, including Star Wars.

Haha...nah.  I like KOTCS, but it's easily my least favorite of the four Indy flicks.  It has moments of sheer brilliance, but suffers from terrible pacing.  It's a badly edited movie, plain and simple, which is a shame, because the IDEA behind it is brilliant.  I honestly don't even mind the sillier bits of humor or improbable escapes.  Anyway, it's just good enough to make me wish it was better.  I still had to own it when it came out on blu-ray.

And I didn't HATE the Star Wars prequels.  I still watch them when they come on TV, and one of these days I'll pick up the blu-ray set to complement my original trilogy set.  Again, another missed opportunity for the franchise, in my opinion.  Just good enough to make me wish they were better.

@Deloria

Hmmm...

Well, I know you're gonna hate me for this, Deloria. But... I've never really liked Shakespeare all that much. Granted, all I remember reading is Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet and I think Twelfth Night (I don't exactly remember since it was several years ago. All I can remember clearly is me finding a line I recognized from a game title I saw on Big Fish Games, which was "Westward Ho!" and briefly being excited before moving on), so my views might be a little scewed because I haven't read EVERY play.

I DO remember watching a Shakespeare play (name slips my mind. Had the beginning as an actual stage, then changed to IIRC a scene on a ship on the high seas which I thought was a REALLY cool transition!) which I thought was... okay.

My reason for not liking Shakespeare is:

The stories are WAAAAAY too drawn out, with too much dialogue with almost no action breaks. An example for me, would be Hamlet. Dear Lord, that was so dull to me! It was just DIALOGUE and no more! Oh sure, things did get somewhat interesting once they had that girl's funeral (See? I can't even bother to remember her name! That's how boring I thought it was!) and everyone started arguing. But, that soon was forgotten by me as we went back to boring. The most interesting thing was the final swordfight between Hamlet and his rival. I thought to myself, "FINALLY some action!" as they challenged eachother... and then we cut ahead, not even SHOWING the fight (because it was a playscript, I assumed there was going to be actions like (this) or [this] with sounds of clashing steel in the script) and we show them both hurt, and they soon die afterwards. In fact pretty much EVERYONE dies!

I don't remember nearly enough of Romeo and Juliet or Twelfth Night (If that was what I was reading) to really give my stance on it.

"But wait," you might say. "What about TSL? The first two episodes- especially the first one -were mostly just dialogue too! There wasn't any real action until episode 3 with the awesome Dreamworld Tower sequence with the awesome music!"

Well, yes, that is true. BUT, the difference between TSL and Shakespeare is that TSL actually INTERESTED me! I knew most of the characters (aside from a few from 7 which I hadn't watched Enchantermon's LP of yet to recognize) and the stories that had come before this thanks to Paw, TV Tropes and a dash of Toegoff to get me going. I was actually invested in the story (cliche as it was), and wanted to see how it ended, whether it was on a high or downer note. I WANTED to see what would happen to these characters in the end, because you guys made me care about them! In fact, playing through TSL has made me interested in going back to how it all started with King Graham in KQ1 in 1984 and playing through all of them myself, just to see how it all ties together. Yes, including MoE. Who knows- I might end up with the same reaction I did when I first saw Cedric: non-annoyance and non-hatred. 

With Shakespeare, I didn't care about these characters at all. The stories just drag on and on.

I'm sorry if you hate me now, my Queene.
-
And speaking of dragging on and on... I HATE BOTH THE BOOK AND MOVIE "EMMA"!!!! The movie because I had to watch it for school (I had a section in my homeschooling for one grade where I had to watch a movie we had rented, or in the case of The Quiet Man bought, and I had to write down answers to questions about the movies in the book we were using. That part of the program wasn't my problem with Emma- I got to watch The Raiders of the Lost Ark for the hundredth time due to this which I loved, and got my first glimpse of Alfred Hitchcock thanks to it. I love Rear Window!), and it was the most boring, dull, drawn out, non-interesting love story I'd ever seen in my life! It wasn't even like Shakespeare, where it had a few interesting scenes, this only had one, which was the opening with the spinning ball.

I didn't like the movie because I felt that it went on for HOURS! It was apparently 120 minutes according to Wikipedia, but it felt like TWICE that! Just get on with it already!

I didn't like the book (in fact when I read my schedule I internally groaned in horror) for the same reasons, PLUS the fact that I now know that Emma is NOT a very likable character. She's a spoiled (which I admit I am too, but I was at least a sweet kid regardless and still am according to some people) brat who manipulates her so-called "friends" without viewing the consequences!
-
The Last Airbender... hoo boy! I hated that too! I am a HUGE fan of Avatar: The Last Airbender (and I feel ashamed that I STILL haven't watched The Legend of Korra yet!), having watched it from the beginning of its run and own all three complete books DVDs with pride.

When I first heard about the movie being made from a friend I'd met on a cruise (Mari), for about a minute I was excited... and then she told me that, according to the trailer, "Iroh looks young!"

Immediate red flag in my mind.

I watched the trailers, and as I heard more and more news, my dread crept over me that this was going to suck comes over me like Avoozl over Mordavia.

Finally, the movie premiered. Like always, I saw it on opening day with my Grandma after watching the entirety of Book 1 the day before (I WANTED Grandma to watch them with me so she would get context of how the show and story was. She refused to watch more than the pilot, which to me, is NOT enough to experience how the characters are! Yes, it established them, but that's it. We don't see much of what they can do in the pilot or how they grow as characters in just the pilot!), and I can actually remember saying in the theater as the opening titles began, "Okay... I can do this. I can do this!"

I fully admit, I went into this movie knowing it was going to be bad (unlike The Spiderwick Chronicles, which I didn't like either but for different reasons).

The characters are flat and poorly acted, with no life in their eyes. ESPECIALLY Aang! He's supposed to be a happy go lucky little kid who is an optimit and loves to have fun with his friends! Yes, he does break down and get serious in the later seasons, but that's not suppoed to happen for awhile yet and the actor who plays him acts like some view Alexander: Mopey and angsty due to what's happened to him. I remember seeing him smile ONCE in the movie, and all others times, blank or bewildered. And, there was no romantic tension between him and Katara like in the show. In the show, it was apparent from the camera angle in the pilot, that when they met eyes for the first time that they saw something in eachother. In the movie, I didn't see ANY hints of that at all! Grandma said she did, but I know I didn't.

The ONLY things I liked about that movie was the music (which was good) and the set design (for example, The Northern Water Tribe looked pretty accurate which was nice!).

And you wanna know the wort part of all this? I, of course hated it practically from the start. My grandma however?...Just guess!
-
I would say more, but it's getting late here. 11:09 PM to be exact.

@Lamb Bad pacing? Really? Huh. I didn't notice it all that much. And, of course they could be written better! Pretty much ANYTHING can be written better in the right hands!   

Quotewith too much dialogue with almost no action breaks

One thing to remember about Shakespeare is that they weren't written for mass consumption they were essentially notes that were edited by his ENTIRE troop (yes that is right. Even Shakespeare didn't write Shakespeare).

So there really could have been more action.

Also the play I like to bring up whenever I am feeling "Shakespeare is overrated" is Titus Andronicus with the most disappointing nonsense I have ever seen. Were it written by anyone else it would have been decried as uttar drivel scribed only by what can be described as a hack.

It also is the play that to me is the most clear that Shakespeare isn't as nuanced as people give him credit. That his gender roles weren't so progressive.

Then again Shakespeare's problem is that people actively push his work and give it undue praise.

I once went on a Orwell is overrated but later I found out that every criticism I placed against his work, Orwell himself confirmed. So who knew.

Lol.  And there you have it: TSL > Shakespeare.

Thread over.

Lork:
You're entitled to these opinions, even if I don't agree with them. I feel as though your problem may have been a lack of understanding of the core issues and problems within the play, because the context often isn't given in schools. These people are grappling with issues that we as people from the 21st century can't begin to understand because our core values are very differently placed. Was the language barrier an issue too?

<Darthkiwi swooshes in and finishes Deloria's post because Deloria is le tired>
Re. Shakespeare's role as writer within an acting group - it's true his work would have been reworked by his actors, but we actually don't have his rough notes (or "foul papers" as academics call them, for some reason). However, we do have two kinds of texts: folio versions, from the "First Folio", which was an official publication of a lot of his plays, and "quarto" versions, which were basically pirated versions. They were either written down by audience members who wanted to sell the pirated copies, or rewritten from memory by actors who were in the plays. There isn't really more action in the quarto versions as opposed to the folio ones, and we're pretty sure the quarto versions represent more or less what actually happened onstage. But you do tend to get fewer speeches, or more streamlined plots - scenes are sometimes rearranged to reduce two parallel plots to a single, linear plot, which would be easier to follow. Also consider that Shakespeare's language was quite different from our own not just in vocabulary but in pronunciation: people have acted out these plays with an Elizabethan accent and they've found that they tend to be about half an hour shorter. So if a play seems to long, it might actually BE too long in our 21st century speech.

Re. Titus - well yeah, obviously. Any play which can end a scene with "Okay, well I'll carry one of the severed heads of my sons, but only one, since my hand has been cut off. Can you carry the other one, and, since you have had both hands cut off, can you carry MY hand in your teeth?" is not going for subtlety. But, hey, look, you're putting the bard in an awfully odd position here: one of you cries out for more action and the other one says that buckets of blood is too much. These revenge tragedies (of which Titus is one) were called "The Spectacle of Blood". If you watch The Revenger's Tragedy, The Spanish Tragedy, The Duchess of Malfi - these are all very, very violent and feature people dying left, right and centre. That's the kind of play Shakespeare was expected to write. But bear in mind, Titus was his very first tragedy. Shakespeare's revered as a monolith of literature but, remember, he was a man, and his talent didn't come from nowhere, it had to mature. Titus is his first step into tragedy and, yes, it's pretty stereotypical in that regard. His later work is much more complex.

Re. action vs dialogue - in the 16th century, people did not say they were going to *see* a play, they said they were going to *hear* a play. This is a fundamental difference between their theatre culture and ours. For them, dialogue WAS action, and there are a lot of Shakespearean scenes where characters' beliefs or intentions change due to what is said to them or what they themselves say. I mean, that's basically the plot of Othello. It's also critical to Macbeth and Lear. And these are just ones I'm picking off the top of my head. Shakespeare's plays are about society, about the role of individuals within society, about the way people can manipulate and persuade and destroy each other - and often that's through words, not daggers.

But a big hurdle for audiences today is exactly that: those words. Because, frankly, unless they're really well-acted, it can be a struggle to understand what's actually being said.

That production of Hamlet sounds pretty dull, though. They should really stage the fight scene. Shakespeare did put that in - it's really meant to be staged.

Well, I learned something new today. Thanks Deloria! :)

Although, I don't see why Valanice likes Othello.

Quote from: Lambonius on January 05, 2013, 12:20:26 AM
Lol.  And there you have it: TSL > Shakespeare.

Thread over.

Hey, I can live with that :)

Lamb, Phoenix Online's slogan maker.

:D

Btw, I love Shakespeare to bits (as you can tell by TSL), but Titus is one of the hardest plays to digest from him imo. I also saw Julius Caesar once--haven't read it-- and that was was also very heavy. I think my fav Shakespeare will always be Othello.

Quote from: GrahamRocks! on January 04, 2013, 10:09:24 PM
@Lamb Bad pacing? Really? Huh. I didn't notice it all that much. And, of course they could be written better! Pretty much ANYTHING can be written better in the right hands!  

Just noticed this.  Yes, KOTCS has terrible pacing.  It has a great front end, mostly, but a really badly executed second half.  Basically, from the moment Indy and Mutt are captured by the Russians, the movie goes downhill fast.  The Jungle Chase scene is WAY WAY WAY too long; it literally takes up most of the second half of the movie.  It's all s****y action designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator of today's ADD movie goers.  As a result, the whole ending at Akator itself feels very tacked on and rushed.  In the novelization, the Akator sequence is greatly extended, and as a result the plot gets a lot more fleshed out and the movie's ending as a whole fits better and makes more sense.  There's also more to the Chauchilla Cemetary bit in the novelization, which elaborates upon the Spanish conquistador's acquisition of the crystal skull and their subsequent downfall as a result of its corrupting effects.  Pretty much all of that important information that adds gravitas to the story and its MacGuffin is cut from the movie, making it seem easily the most shallow of the four Indy flicks.  It's just a badly put together film, padded out with way too many mindless action bits, at the expense of important plot development.  There are almost no moments of "rest" in the movie like there are in the other Indy flicks, moments like Indy drinking whiskey after Marion's apparent death in Raiders, or the quiet drink in the Zeppelin in Crusade.  Those moments are crucial because of the way they allow the characters to develop and push the plot forward through (gasp!) actual dialog that isn't just one-liners thrown in between punches and explosions.  KOTCS is basically one action setpiece after another, with almost no breaks in between, especially the last half.  On top of that, there are too many characters vying for the spotlight--it's too much of an ensemble cast, such that characters like Mac and Oxley (and arguably Marion) are incredibly one-dimensional and hardly developed at all.

Anyway, I could go on, but I'll stop there for now.  ;)

While we're all venting at stuff we hate, I would just like to say that for me, MoE > KQ7.

Before you burn me at the stake, let me explain: MoE, I can laugh at. It's silly. It's an unintentionally funny game. You can decapitate monsters by shooting them with arrows. Yeah, arrows don't work that way, but I think it's funny nonetheless. You inspect the mold you're carrying in your inventory, and Connor triumphantly announces, "I have fetched some green mold!" I still find that statement funny. KQ7, however...is grating. What's up with all the crying, and all the screaming, and all the squeaky-voiced characters? What's with the bad animation? Why do the human characters only have four fingers on each hand?

But, take it for what you will.

KQ7 is just so terrible.  Truly the worst the KQ series has to offer.

Well, the crying actually had a purpose: to solve a puzzle. The screaming, I'm not sure what you're talking about unless you're talking about the death sequences. The voices, well, Sierra has never been one for great voice acting anyway (KQ6 and GK1 to name a couple exceptions)and besides, we ARE in a completely different world here anyway.

As for Indy 4... okay, Lamb. You DO make a good point! It's not going to stop me from liking the film, but it is a good point.

I actually found Graham's death scream in KQ5 *much* more annoying.

You gotta love the Graham falling scream, though! It's like Sierra's version of the Wilhelm scream! :P

Indeed! I've heard that scream in a few other Sierra games as well.

Off the top of my head there is: Quest for Glory 3, Conquests of the Longbow, King's Quest 6...

Although to me, it's more horrifying than annoying. Say what you want about Josh Mandel's voice for Graham, he sure can yell!

Not as horrifying as Lavos though.

KQ7 doesn't hold a candle to KQ6. But I love it. Although that probably has more to do with nostalgia rather than me actually loving the game itself :)

I am under the impression that Shakespeare didn't write natural dialog all the time, though he certainly included slang and multiple ways of speaking, and that his plays at the time would have been considered somewhat poetic.

Also my issue with Titus was never the violence and gore, heck the BEST part of the entire play was the most mortifying. It was just that it was kind of not a good play and disapointed me constantly, building up scenes and characters just to make them superfluous.

It is the only Shakespeare play where In my oppinion it is better to turn your brain off and not on. (that I am aware of).

QuoteKQ7 doesn't hold a candle to KQ6.

While I think KQ7 is mildly underrated, you are right. It is one of the weaker Kings Quests.

Its real issue is its slow pacing. It is probably the most generally slow Kings Quest (though you can speed it up, but that isn't in the manual)

You can press Shift-+ to raise the speed, though it has an annoying habit of dropping back to the default setting whenever it feels like it.