POStudios Forum

I've seen some state that King's Quest should remain dead if a group like TT is doing it, or that KQ should stay dead no matter who gets a crack at it, that the series had it's time and it was meant to end and that in essence no matter who gets a shot at it, it'll never be as good as it was. I think that the latter is a very defeatist and negative and cynical point of view.

As I've said elsewhere, King's Quest is not rocket science. It is not Shakespeare. It does not belong--nor did it ever, really--to any one author. It's not like Leisure Suit Larry, which was Al's baby alone...KQ did fine in the hands of people other than Roberta, like Josh Mandel, Jane Jensen and Lorelei Shannon. It's not an incredibly deep or brilliantly written series...I think a game on par with KQ6 can be made even now if the person making it has a creative mind, a knowledge of fairy tales, fables, and mythology, and a love and understanding for what KQ is about.

To say that KQ should just stay dead and buried is so cynical and defeatist..and really is the kind of mindset that helped kill the franchise in the first place. In 1996, people proclaimed the adventure genre to be dead, and thus KQ8 turned out the way it did, and we never got a KQ game after...Flash forward 17 years and the adventure genre is in an upswing and has evolved beyond what anyone in 1996 could've thought it would.

I really agree. Obviously, if some KQ fan sequels (or official) sequels are made then they will be of varying quality, but that's just life. To say "No good KQ game will ever be made from this point on" seems kind of silly to me: it all depends on who's writing/designing it.

Ultimately, if somebody has a really good idea for a KQ sequel then I think they should be able to have a crack at it. You never know.

Indeed, I agree as well.

Really all that is important is that the people who wind up making it have a dedicated love and passion for the series. We've all already seen how well that helps. ;)

The only reason I'd be against another 'cannon' KQ game is a selfish one, for in my own little world I like to consider TSL cannon, even though it is a fan game. I'd be sad to see its story contradicted in any way. :)

But despite that, I am very excited to see what Telltale brings to the series.

Well, according to the results thus far, we have at least one person who voted yes, which means that this forum has at least one person with no faith in humanity.

I say yes, but I am not downright opposed to other projects, (obviously, since this is a site that includes a KQ fan game). KQ is fine where it is, Telltale's working on The Walking Dead shows that it is actually possible for them to make a decent game, and I am far more curious to see what they can do with an original IP.

Quote from: Farquhar on February 24, 2013, 04:07:12 PM
But despite that, I am very excited to see what Telltale brings to the series.

Did I miss something?  Is Telltale doing a KQ game?

Around 2 years ago, it was announced that Telltale had the license to make new KQ games. But that was pretty much all that was ever said about it--there's been nothing big since then.

I think there's room for new games. It'd be really cool for KQ to be a game that spans generations. Kind of like Doctor Who--it's neat that show has SO much history. Why not a game series that can do the same?

And unlike most people I actually am not very hopeful hearing that KQ is in the hands of Telltale.

They are too soft handed when it comes to their games so as not to challenge anyone.

Neovinek, you should play The Walking Dead, for whatever reason Telltale decided to do a good job on that one...and that one alone (judging by critical reception of their other stuff, I haven't played any other title of theirs).


But I agree with you, slapping the KQ name onto a fantasy game will more than likely just weigh down the game itself, since it has to compare to a franchise that is over 20 years old.

Some would argue that's what happened with KQ8 :P

Correct if I am wrong, but wasn't the S.S. MOE captained by Roberta Williams? I always figured the game was just a result of her terrible ideas on "modern" games. :P

Attempting to make a good game while trying to keep it true to an unfamiliar franchise just seems like a pointless headache to me.

There's a lot of messy story about the making of MoE, including how Roberta had less and less control on the game. There are even some threads around here someplace where people get into the nitty gritty details of it, though I can't figure out where they are at the moment of I'd link to it for you.

No Katie that is fine, I'll find the threads myself.  No need to risk derailment into an MOE discussion. That well is dry. 

I did try to find them! Hehe, though yes, I also don't want to derail this into an MoE discussion :)

Quote from: KatieHal on February 25, 2013, 08:15:09 AM
Around 2 years ago, it was announced that Telltale had the license to make new KQ games. But that was pretty much all that was ever said about it--there's been nothing big since then.

I think there's room for new games. It'd be really cool for KQ to be a game that spans generations. Kind of like Doctor Who--it's neat that show has SO much history. Why not a game series that can do the same?

I don't think King's Quest the right franchise to go all Doctor Who on.  I truly believe it's better left dormant - TSL did a fine job of wrapping things up for the fans who want that.  (Well, it will as soon as they get their hands on the final episode)

I don't see anything good coming out of a large entity taking the KQ IP and slapping it on some generic fantasy adventure game.


Bt

I think a Reboot could work, afterall everyone's favorite game (well ok... a lot of people's favorite) is 6 as it combined the story, adventure, and puzzle elements flawlessly. Yet the games never had a solid story.

Often the story between the games were a lot more interesting.

It is just that I have no faith in Telltale to do it. They make light games that TELL you how to do a puzzle if you can't find out how. As well how much of a mean streak do you think they could even muster? You think they are going to fill KQ up with death traps?

Walking Dead wasn't an eye opener to me. All their games were decent (Heck I liked their Wallice and Grommit series), the issue is that they don't have an edge a lot of the time.

My concern was never that they couldn't give KQ a story or capture the story of layout or characterisation that KQ could have. My issue is that they really couldn't give the Kings Quest Gameplay.

I wouldn't be opposed to it. But I like how the franchise is now. A good story will last for as long as the fanbase keeps it alive. And we've had some quality remakes from fans (TSL being one of them). I'd give it a try if Telltale were so inclined to make a reboot. (I don't know anything about them).

This is a tough one for me. I certainly think it's possible for more good KQ games to be made, I worry that a KQ sequel could just be a way to cash in on a popular IP. I think I would be just as happy with a spiritual successor to the KQ games.

Hmm...what *would* be a good game to go Doctor Who with, you think? (As in, lasting for more than one generation, rotating cast of characters, etc).

I do agree that any new KQ games should honor the kind if games the originals were. New additions and innovations are fine--expected, even, to stay popular in the long term--but they shouldn't stray so far from the originals. I also agree that in general, TTG's style isn't the KQ style. I'd still play a KQ game they made, if only to give it it's fair shake and support the IP and genre, though.

Quote from: KatieHal on February 27, 2013, 06:27:32 AM
Hmm...what *would* be a good game to go Doctor Who with, you think?

Why, Dr. Who (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Who:_The_Adventure_Games), of course!

Lol. Touché--I walked right into that one!

Cognition.  Let's see Erica Reed's relatives in the 1930's, eh??


Bt

I'd so do that :)

Oh but let's face it, she's clearly descended from Laura Bow!

Quote from: KatieHal on February 28, 2013, 08:19:12 AM
I'd so do that :)

Oh but let's face it, she's clearly descended from Laura Bow!

She doesn't seem anywhere close to as death prone as she was. I mean, Erica Reed doesn't even need to look twice to prevent phantom cars.

Quote from: KatieHal on February 28, 2013, 08:19:12 AM
I'd so do that :)

Oh but let's face it, she's clearly descended from Laura Bow!

Haha, right?

I actually do think the games meta-physical conceits would be cool in an old noir mystery, for sure.


Bt

Better late than never.  Finally my ban is up and I can comment on this drivel.

King's Quest should have died after KQ6.  KQ7 and, to a lesser extent, 8, are abominations.

King's Quest should stay dead unless it is revived in the hands of developers who actually understand and will honor the design philosophy of the original games.  In this case, Telltale is absolutely not that company.  A new King's Quest game should either be a retro style throwback with retro production values, or a retro style throwback with modern production values.  Notice the consistency there in RETRO STYLE--by that, I of course, refer to the gameplay, exploration abilities, and puzzle design, NOT the story, as story is about the least important aspect of what makes King's Quest games feel like King's Quest games.  Telltale could certainly write a good fantasy story, but they don't know how to make a good adventure game--at all.  Even their so-called "traditional" adventure games, Tales of Monkey Island, the Sam and Max games, etc.--cannot hold a candle to the originals of those series.  Beyond that, episodic gameplay will not work for the King's Quest series.  It sucked in KQ7, and it would be even worse in the hands of Telltale, what with their penchant for single-digit room games.  And no, TSL is NOT proof that the episodic format suits King's Quest.  But that's another discussion for another thread.

King's Quest would be best in the hands of one of the Sierra revivalist developers like Josh Mandel, Scott Murphy, or even...gulp...Jane Jensen.  If that can't happen--then kill it with fire, I say.

All other opinions on the matter are incorrect.  Might as well close this thread, mods.

Lamb... *sigh* I don't believe you should automatically make the assumption that everyone else's option is wrong. We all have our own opinions on this, and should be allowed to express them.

Me, for example. I happen to LIKE KQ7 quite a bit, thank you very much! As for whether or not KQ can or should be revived, I think it can when in the right hands (whether they be official or fanmade) with people who know how to make good games and tell a good story.

For example, POS has done a great job (IN MY OPINION) with the KQ series.

Y'know Lamb, I've been wondering something about you for awhile now: Since you didn't like TSL very much iirc, and you haven't said anything about Cognition, plus you don't seem to do anything on here but argue... then why are you still here?

Quote from: Lambonius on March 01, 2013, 10:36:10 AM
Better late than never.  Finally my ban is up and I can comment on this drivel.

King's Quest should have died after KQ6.  KQ7 and, to a lesser extent, 8, are abominations.

Wrong. KQ7 is a great game, that like KQ5, is a victim of experimentation with new technologies. You like KQ5, as do I, but many others would argue it's an ill designed crap fest with utterly illogical puzzles, because Sierra put an emphasis on trying out all this neat new technology rather than getting some real concrete puzzles down, and that a refinement of the promise KQ5 held only came with KQ6.

KQ7 could've been much the same, had the gaming industry not changed so suddenly. Perhaps a KQ8 done in the style of KQ7, but a refinement on that style, without the noted flaws, would've been a second masterpiece.

KQ8 had amazing potential but was messed up due to many, many factors, including simply being made at the wrong time, by a company which was changing and imploding slowly from within and without, and an increasingly competitive and rapidly changing video game industry which temporarily put adventure games into deep sleep. I don't think Roberta would've embarked on making KQ8 in the fashion she did if Doom, Quake and Tomb Raider weren't as popular as they were and if the video game industry at large, including her own husband, wasn't declaring adventure games dead.

Quote
A new King's Quest game should either be a retro style throwback with retro production values, or a retro style throwback with modern production values.  Notice the consistency there in RETRO STYLE--by that, I of course, refer to the gameplay, exploration abilities, and puzzle design, NOT the story, as story is about the least important aspect of what makes King's Quest games feel like King's Quest games.

I agree only on this point, but I don't think it should be totally retro. Purism is what killed adventure games in the first place. Adventure games were previously all about evolution.

QuoteEpisodic gameplay will not work for the King's Quest series.  It sucked in KQ7

It can work, if done correctly. You're a little too closeminded.

Quote
King's Quest would be best in the hands of one of the Sierra revivalist developers like Josh Mandel, Scott Murphy, or even...gulp...Jane Jensen.  If that can't happen--then kill it with fire, I say.

There are many, many more creative and fresher minds out there than that of Josh, Scott and Jane Jensen. Why should those younger, fresher minds be denied a chance at creating a new King's Quest game, particularly if they loved the old games? You act as if only three people in the entire world of six billion people could produce a worthy King's Quest game.

Just because you are jaded and emotionally "over" King's Quest doesn't mean the series should stay permanently dormant. Because of what, two entries of mixed quality...Versus six of superb quality.

Quote
All other opinions on the matter are incorrect.  Might as well close this thread, mods.

Arrogance leads you nowhere.

b-b-but isn't TSL worthy of the King's Quest name? D:

Quote from: Sir Perceval of Daventry on March 01, 2013, 11:23:42 AM
Wrong. KQ7 is a great game, that like KQ5, is a victim of experimentation with new technologies. KQ8 had great potential but was messed up due to many, many factors.

Aliens: Colonial Marines, the most recent big budget mess to come out was plagued with development problems, that in no way excuses the fact that as a game, it is terrible.

I have found memories of KQ5, I even like it, but that is because I always wear my snazziest pair of rose tinted glasses when I play it.  It is a bad game, it looks and sounds pretty, everything else about it is horrendous. 

At the end of the day you can only judge the final product,  it is perfectly fine, encouraged even, to have empathy for the development process, but it doesn't make the game in question better or worse.

As for the question of whether and episodic(sp?) format would work for King's Quest, I don't think it matters much one way or the other.  The advantage to that format as I see it, is so the consumer can determine if they think the rest of the game is worth paying for it, I would avoid trying to place to much artistic or creative value on it.

to be fair the problem with Aliens Colonial Marines WAS budget, as most of the work was done by a different studio that was outsourced without Sega's knowledge.

Who know how much money/time Timegate actually had?

Nothing makes the anarchist within me smile quite like watching people fight amongst themselves.

Lamb's right, you know. KQ7 was truly the worst the King's Quest series had to offer. You have two protagonists, one of which is a ditz, and the other of which is an emotional basketcase who bursts into tears at the drop of a hat. Say what you will about Connor, but the guy could do some badass backflips. I fail to see anything positive about Rosella and Valanice in this game.

The villains are extremely weak. The Boogeyman has a cool design, but in the end, he's just a one-scene wonder. Malicia is juvenile and a pushover to defeat. The game's animations are slow and choppy, the dialogue makes Twilight's writing seem Shakespearean by comparison, the music is boring, the side characters are often shrill and grating, and the puzzles are a joke. It's a bad game. Don't even try to deny it.

And before you respond to tell me that "I just don't get it," you might want to take a look at this:
http://betax1.justadventure.com/reviews/KQ7/KQ7.shtm (http://betax1.justadventure.com/reviews/KQ7/KQ7.shtm)

The game is bad. And if you like it, you're bad, cause the game is bad, m'kay?

(Don't take that last couple of sentences too seriously. It's a South Park reference.)

 ::) oh whatever! Let me have my opinion, please.

No one is taking away your opinion GR, we are just throwing it into the Thunderdome with all of our opinions.

but she's pretty and blond and only has 4 fingers!

she's the perfect woman!

((It's a joke, don't kill me))

Quote from: Bludshot on March 01, 2013, 12:06:44 PM
No one is taking away your opinion GR, we are just throwing it into the Thunderdome with all of our opinions.

Hahahaha!!

I've never watched Mad Max, actually.

It is actually a bad analogy, because only one opinion can leave Thunderdome, not...what is at this point, 4 or 5 opinions?

Pot successfully stirred.   8)

Quote from: stika on March 01, 2013, 12:07:26 PM
but she's pretty and blond and only has 4 fingers!

she's the perfect woman!

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_t-EfdceTs60/TK8KRLsj-qI/AAAAAAAAKRU/syRMIc9SxPI/s1600/HILLARY+Cackle+Cackle.jpg)

Quote from: 929572 on March 01, 2013, 11:57:19 AMAnd before you respond to tell me that "I just don't get it," you might want to take a look at this:
http://betax1.justadventure.com/reviews/KQ7/KQ7.shtm (http://betax1.justadventure.com/reviews/KQ7/KQ7.shtm)

I tried to read this and then by the third paragraph decided to use the tab to look up this (http://magicmagic.ytmnd.com/). :P

That said, KQVII is one of my favorites in the series. I think the puzzles are some of the best (like the review says, it has a lot of "environment-based" puzzles compared to the previous games), and I think the environments are really engaging. The review complains immensely about the interface, which, again, I really enjoyed. I enjoyed it in Phantasmagoria and I enjoyed it here.  Yes, it was made to cash in on the popularity of Disney movies, and yes, it's awfully cheesy, and yes, they clearly didn't have any good animators, but the game was fun and entertaining. I think it deserves respect. :P

My biggest complaint about KQ7 is that I personally found Valanice really boring. And in retrospect, Rosella's kind of annoying. The puzzles and interface I never had much of an issue with, or the animation style--it was the characters, for me. I didn't love some aspects of the story--mostly the weird inclusion of sci-fi elements with the volcano machine & the unexplained baby ray.

Though I also agree that the series peaked with KQ6.

Ehh, my biggest complaint with KQ7 is probably the interface. Yeah, making it simple makes it more accessable to newbies and all, but that also means there's much less interactivity. The Context-Sensitive Wand just doesn't measure up to the Standard Sierra Point'n Click Interface. :P

Also, I hated the save system for not letting me keep a bunch of saves at various parts of the game.
I don't hate KQ7 as a whole, though.

Quote from: Rosella on March 01, 2013, 01:57:54 PM

Quote from: 929572 on March 01, 2013, 11:57:19 AMAnd before you respond to tell me that "I just don't get it," you might want to take a look at this:
http://betax1.justadventure.com/reviews/KQ7/KQ7.shtm (http://betax1.justadventure.com/reviews/KQ7/KQ7.shtm)

I tried to read this and then by the third paragraph decided to use the tab to look up this (http://magicmagic.ytmnd.com/). :P

That said, KQVII is one of my favorites in the series. I think the puzzles are some of the best (like the review says, it has a lot of "environment-based" puzzles compared to the previous games), and I think the environments are really engaging. The review complains immensely about the interface, which, again, I really enjoyed. I enjoyed it in Phantasmagoria and I enjoyed it here.  Yes, it was made to cash in on the popularity of Disney movies, and yes, it's awfully cheesy, and yes, they clearly didn't have any good animators, but the game was fun and entertaining. I think it deserves respect. :P

+1
And what KQ game isn't cheesy? :)

There are different levels of cheese.

Most King's Quests were a fine cheddar... maybe an Edam or a Jarlsberg.

King's Quest VII was "Government Cheese" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_cheese) in a pretty package, with a Sierra label slapped on it.


Bt

QuoteMy biggest complaint about KQ7 is that I personally found Valanice really boring.

It doesn't help that you win over the vast majority of your arguements with Valanice by using your comb on people so she cries at them.

Honestly by the third time I had used the Comb I was laughing. "Dang Valanice, laying on the emotional blackmail thick I see"

Don't get me wrong, I like Valanice but the vast majority of my enjoyment involving her is was how cheesy everything is and many of her lines when she dies (Heck Rosella too). Sometimes the BEST part of a death was just how they would react to it.

I just loved how she always kept her heir on no matter what happened to her.

There is cheesy, and then there is just lazy writing.

Don't agree on the puzzles, at least not to the same extent.  There are some clever ones, the grain of salt comes to mind, but others have some KQ5 level moon logic.

Like the baby plug...thing.

LOL, oh god, yes, the comb and the crying! That got pretty comical after a while. :)

I think I didn't mind the interface so much, but the choice of a wand that sparkles wasn't the best, in retrospect. I can see how it seemed like it would fit into a KQ game well, though.

Quote from: Bludshot on March 01, 2013, 03:53:57 PM
There is cheesy, and then there is just lazy writing.

To me it wasn't lazy writing. It was just bad writing.

They had a few good ideas here and honestly several sections honestly felt like Kings Quest. Heck the desert could be transplanted into any kings quest without changing it.

Sometimes I felt like sections were made drastically appart from one another.

KQ7 was at least on par with KQ5

*Looks at KQ5*

Cedric: No, Graham! Stay away from the edge!
Graham: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

*Looks at KQ7*

"I, Archduke Fifi le Yipyap, do order it!"

*Turns back to KQ5*

Cedric: Look out, there's a hole in the boat!
Boat: (abruptly sinks spontaneously)
Graham: HELP, HELLPPBLURBLE, (sputters and drowns)
Narrator: Thanks for playing King's Quest 5.

*Turns back to KQ7*

"Bawk, bawk, BAWK, THE SKY IS FALLING!"

*KQ5*

"We're the aaaaaaaants, of King Aaaaaantony, we're coming to help King Graaaaaaham!"

*KQ7*

(Fernando bursts into tears.)

*KQ5*

"Where'd you find him, MinOTTA?!"

*KQ7*

Malicia (upon seeing a toy rat): HWUAAARRRGHH!



I can't decide which game is more annoying! I don't know what to believe anymore!

I find KQ5 charming compared to KQ7. ;)

I find them both charming. :P

Quote from: 929572 on March 01, 2013, 07:28:33 PM
*Looks at KQ5*

Cedric: No, Graham! Stay away from the edge!
Graham: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

*Looks at KQ7*

"I, Archduke Fifi le Yipyap, do order it!"

*Turns back to KQ5*

Cedric: Look out, there's a hole in the boat!
Boat: (abruptly sinks spontaneously)
Graham: HELP, HELLPPBLURBLE, (sputters and drowns)
Narrator: Thanks for playing King's Quest 5.

*Turns back to KQ7*

"Bawk, bawk, BAWK, THE SKY IS FALLING!"

*KQ5*

"We're the aaaaaaaants, of King Aaaaaantony, we're coming to help King Graaaaaaham!"

*KQ7*

(Fernando bursts into tears.)

*KQ5*

"Where'd you find him, MinOTTA?!"

*KQ7*

Malicia (upon seeing a toy rat): HWUAAARRRGHH!



I can't decide which game is more annoying! I don't know what to believe anymore!

"yONDurrrr DAh CRystahl kayyyyvee, derrr u wIll fiNd teh YEH-TEE"

"A TROLLLLL HOW CAN I BE A TROLLLLLL I'M NOT A TROLLLLLLLL AM I?"

Quote from: Sir Perceval of Daventry on March 01, 2013, 06:32:48 PM
KQ7 was at least on par with KQ5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oavMtUWDBTM

Quote from: Lambonius on March 01, 2013, 10:41:51 PM

Quote from: Sir Perceval of Daventry on March 01, 2013, 06:32:48 PM
KQ7 was at least on par with KQ5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oavMtUWDBTM

Definitely some serious trolling there.

Bt

Quote from: Blackthorne on March 02, 2013, 05:53:38 AM

Quote from: Lambonius on March 01, 2013, 10:41:51 PM

Quote from: Sir Perceval of Daventry on March 01, 2013, 06:32:48 PM
KQ7 was at least on par with KQ5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oavMtUWDBTM

Definitely some serious trolling there.

Bt

No, it's just how I feel. I've pretty much always viewed KQ5 and KQ7 to be different, but overall of about equal quality. They're the mindlessly fun, cheesy installments in the KQ series, that focus on artistic and technical achievements rather than on puzzles.

QuoteThey're the mindlessly fun, cheesy installments in the KQ series, that focus on artistic and technical achievements rather than on puzzles.

Ohh dear goodness stop getting your oppinions from Retsupurae.

Kings Quest 5 was meant to be the first real adventure the series had. Something that wasn't contained to just one region. It certainly used their newest graphics but to say it had more of a focus on it then, lets say 6 (a game where they outright spoke of how much they focused on the graphics), is just odd.

They used their new abilities to tell a story they couldn't have otherwise

It was also their first attempt to bridge puzzles and story. Something KQ6 only got right because they had already gained experience while making 5.

As well all KQ5s cheesyness was because they kept the series cheesyness. Something KQ6 decided to contain to just one island.

Quote from: Neonivek on March 02, 2013, 09:01:42 AM

QuoteThey're the mindlessly fun, cheesy installments in the KQ series, that focus on artistic and technical achievements rather than on puzzles.

Ohh dear goodness stop getting your oppinions from Retsupurae.

Kings Quest 5 was meant to be the first real adventure the series had. Something that wasn't contained to just one region. It certainly used their newest graphics but to say it had more of a focus on it then, lets say 6 (a game where they outright spoke of how much they focused on the graphics), is just odd.

They used their new abilities to tell a story they couldn't have otherwise

It was also their first attempt to bridge puzzles and story. Something KQ6 only got right because they had already gained experience while making 5.

As well all KQ5s cheesyness was because they kept the series cheesyness. Something KQ6 decided to contain to just one island.

Retsupurae's opinions would seem to be that the KQ series sucked. I don't agree with them, I only watch them for the entertainment factor.

I'd say it had a bigger focus on graphics than KQ6 did. I remember reading this from Sierra themselves, that there was less of a focus on graphics than on what they could do with the story and puzzles in KQ6. Compare KQ5's backgrounds to KQ6's--much more detail, much more effort etc.

They could've told KQ5's story with previous technology.

The series, starting with at least KQ4, had already bridged puzzles with story.

KQ5 is the apex of the series' cheesiness, which is something I love about it.

If I thought that KQ5 was the best out of all of them I wouldn't be writing a fanfiction that retells KQ5 with a different Cedric, now would I?

Now that's not to say that I outright HATE the game, of course. I don't. In fact, I rather like it. I just wish it could have been better. Which is why I'm trying to rewrite it.

I shudder to think of what Lamb would say about it if he read it.

Quote from: Blackthorne on March 01, 2013, 03:07:27 PM
There are different levels of cheese.

Most King's Quests were a fine cheddar... maybe an Edam or a Jarlsberg.

King's Quest VII was "Government Cheese" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_cheese) in a pretty package, with a Sierra label slapped on it.


Bt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOryVF_iM9Q

1:30

Ok here is the major difference between Kings Quest 5 and 7 with the assumption that they are both bad games.

-Kings Quest 5 is a good game bogged down by really annoying aspects.
-Kings Quest 7 is just not a very good game bogged down by being slow.

Honestly to me KQ6 is just the 5th game done right. The problems with KQ7 cannot be "Fixed" because it isn't broken.

I don't think a game can be bogged down when the really annoying aspects are representative of the games entire design.

Quote from: Bludshot on March 03, 2013, 03:28:39 PM
I don't think a game can be bogged down when the really annoying aspects are representative of the games entire design.

KQ5 or 7?

Both.

I think with stronger voice acting and some alternate puzzle solutions which would eliminate dead-ends, KQ5 would be pretty much perfect.  It has a classic fairy tale story, memorable characters, amazing art direction and music, and some great puzzles.  I don't see how those other aspects are indicative of a fundamentally flawed experience that is beyond salvage.

KQ7, on the other hand, IS a much more fundamentally flawed game from an all-encompassing design standpoint.  The decision to break the game into chapters, the over-simplified and visually intrusive interface, the poor art direction, the bad animation, a bland story with an unsatisfying resolution, etc--in addition to bad voice acting, awkward characterization of familiar characters, and annoying new characters, among other things.  There are significantly more fundamental gameplay and design problems there.

I certainly don't contest that the game looks and sounds great, but everything else just doesn't work for me.  The characters that are most memorable to me are memorable for unintentional hilarity and there are just so many dead ends and the most bizarre puzzle solutions in the genre until Gabriel Knight 3 took the title.

Everything is trial and error in that game, but not of any sensible variety, you try all your items on the yeti until you get to the pie, all your items on the snake until you get to the tambourine, and the wedge of cheese, that damn cheese, if you are lucky enough to even have it, why would you ever use it on that wand transfer thingy unless you were just trying every item you had on it out of desperation?

Could it have been done better? Sure, KQ6 is pretty indicative of that, but I don't see it as a matter of fixing a handful of things, I think a "good" KQ5 would be pretty unrecognizable to the actual game.

At least its horribleness is charming, it's like Tommy Wiseau's 'The Room,' it's bad but at least you can have a decent time while you're playing it.

Hm...thing is, I don't think KQ7 is unsalvageable either. Not that I'm about to take that project on personally, but in terms of 'Can we brainstorm ways to make it better that don't utterly change the game?'

So, for example, the chapter-based story. I don't think this is horrible, but it's not done very well. So let's be specific, how do you think the game could be made better while still keeping the two protagonists as playable characters? 'You' being a question to anyone who feels like answering, that is.


Also, YES 42 PIES.

Well, I just don't think the intercutting is handled very well in the game.  The cliffhangers feel forced to me, and don't really build any real tension--you know you'll be getting back to that character eventually, and that they aren't going to die unless you make them die.  I'd have preferred an approach more in the vein of the Lord of the Rings books--where each story is told to completion, and then they come together in the end.

Well to me it is the tweeking required.

Kings Quest 7 needs an overhaul while KQ5 needs a few changes.

I disagree that a fixed KQ5 would be unrecognisable, in fact it would probably be rather similar and likely involve a VERY much less annoying Cedric.

QuoteSo, for example, the chapter-based story. I don't think this is horrible, but it's not done very well. So let's be specific, how do you think the game could be made better while still keeping the two protagonists as playable characters? 'You' being a question to anyone who feels like answering, that is

Honestly in many ways it is just lost potential.

The way it is done in the game is it allows them to have a "Personal antagonistic gameplay" With Rosella being constantly on the run. While at the same time having Valanice fixing things.

Never do these stories interfere with eachother or really affect anything and thus often feel more like two entirely different stories. Wouldn't it be interesting if one change Rosella needed to do to get out of a situation dooms Valanice later in the story or if one had to save the other?

When I think of games where you had to play seperate characters who weren't on the same screen it was always about what unique problem solving or ability they brought to the table and how everything came together as one story.

Quote from: Bludshot on March 03, 2013, 06:04:45 PM
At least its horribleness is charming, it's like Tommy Wiseau's 'The Room,' it's bad but at least you can have a decent time while you're playing it.

You are TEARING ME APART, Cedric!

OH HAI MARK!

Quote from: 929572 on March 05, 2013, 02:24:43 PM

Quote from: Bludshot on March 03, 2013, 06:04:45 PM
At least its horribleness is charming, it's like Tommy Wiseau's 'The Room,' it's bad but at least you can have a decent time while you're playing it.

You are TEARING ME APART, Cedric!

Well Graham and Cedric do have a dysfunctional relationship.

Quote from: Bludshot on March 05, 2013, 07:00:30 PM

Quote from: 929572 on March 05, 2013, 02:24:43 PM

Quote from: Bludshot on March 03, 2013, 06:04:45 PM
At least its horribleness is charming, it's like Tommy Wiseau's 'The Room,' it's bad but at least you can have a decent time while you're playing it.

You are TEARING ME APART, Cedric!

Well Graham and Cedric do have a dysfunctional relationship.

You are a LION I NEVAR hit you! Cedric!

YouTube wants me to watch this: :P

The only reason I havn't watched their kings quest series yet is because I havn't fully beat 5 or 6.

Honestly, Cedric would be much less annoying if voiced by someone else.  The poor "actor" who did it originally just didn't give him the kind of character and charm he needed.

The game could use a bunch of minor fixes, but it wouldn't need a total overhaul like KQ7 would.  That game is a living, breathing disaster.


Bt

Quote from: Neonivek on March 06, 2013, 07:19:03 AM
The only reason I havn't watched their kings quest series yet is because I havn't fully beat 5 or 6.

As a big fan of 6, I will confess the climax is pretty meh, the best the game has to offer is already behind you at that point, but the ending does it's job.

Completing 5 will just give you more pain, the puzzles reach peak stupid in Mordack's castle, they will harm you.

Just remember: bunnies > dragons.

Quote from: Blackthorne on March 06, 2013, 03:07:22 PM
Honestly, Cedric would be much less annoying if voiced by someone else.  The poor "actor" who did it originally just didn't give him the kind of character and charm he needed.
Bt

Honestly Cedric can stick to being exactly as annoying as before. He just needs to not be in as much.

I mean listen to how people talk about Cedric from KQ5 as if he was their dorky best friend. Sure he is annoying but that had a certain charm. It just didn't hit that balance.

Quote from: 929572 on March 06, 2013, 06:59:35 PM
Just remember: bunnies > dragons.

especially if it's a vorpal bunny (Wizardry reference)

Or one of these.



Run away! Run away!

Would it help to confuse it if we run away more? :P

I think I mentioned this before, but Cedric actually works really well from a design perspective: whenever he says "I'll wait here!", it's a signal to the player that they're going somewhere dangerous and should probably save their game, eg. the desert, the forest, Mordack's labyrinth, even the inn - which is actually pretty clever, since it's a warning that the building is more dangerous than it appears.

Of course, the fact nobody ever realises this because Cedric is so incredibly irritating kind of undermines the whole idea. XD But he's not a bad bit of game design - at least in theory.

The town and bakery are safe places that Cedric won't follow you into...unless you count the potential for making the game unwinnable by spending your gold items unwisely. :P

darthwiki I see where you are coming from, but even that use of Cedric is iffy.  It is more common that Cedric says something after it is already too late, like entering the inn, or falling off a cliff, or when he mentions the hole in the boat...in the middle of the ocean.

And as Jafar said, the town and bakery are harmless. 

Yeah but Cedric is sort of in that sweet spot of being a lovable character and annoying sometimes.

Actually, the inn is a valid example of Cedric-usefulness, I'd say. He warns you that he has a bad feeling about the place (which should be a sign to save), and you only die if you get the Innkeeper's attention, so you still have a chance to turn around and leave. :P

I didn't know you could flee, I guess that isn't surprising you only have to learn once that apparently the innkeeper likes to blackjack people for no clear reason.

Quote from: Bludshot on March 08, 2013, 11:08:18 PM
I didn't know you could flee, I guess that isn't surprising you only have to learn once that apparently the innkeeper likes to blackjack people for no clear reason.

This is Kings Quest, it honestly is part of the fun. Of COURSE a Kings Quest Innkeeper is a murderous scumbag, but the question is if that little girl is going to kill you as well.

Quote from: Bludshot on March 08, 2013, 09:30:44 PM
darthwiki I see where you are coming from, but even that use of Cedric is iffy.  It is more common that Cedric says something after it is already too late, like entering the inn, or falling off a cliff, or when he mentions the hole in the boat...in the middle of the ocean.

And as Jafar said, the town and bakery are harmless.

Good point; by the time you're falling off a cliff or sinking in the ocean, Cedric's "Oh no, Graham, we're in trouble!"-type comments make you go "Uh, yes Cedric, I've noticed, thanks." And you're right about the town and the bakery; I guess the developers just couldn't find a good place to put Cedric in those instances, or something.

In his defence, Cedric's reasons for staying out of the desert or woods ("You'll DIE!") or even the inn ("I have a bad feeling about that place") are much more ominous than his reasons for not going into the town or bakery ("I'll wait here"), where he doesn't actually give a negative reason beyond being attacked by a dog once.

I still think the decision to give Graham a buddy character was a promising one, and if they'd made his warnings more consistent and useful - maybe even used him as a source of information or hints for each screen - he could have been a really interesting element of the game.

And if Cedric wasn't as constant with a high pitched voice that could be a ghosts voice.

Admit it! you could imagine a ghost doing all his lines!

Cedric is lovably annoying. I always liked him.
He was supposed to have much more to do. The only reason he stays out of certain places is because the programming/memory/whatever couldn't handle it and the game build would crash when he was on the screen in certain scenes. Originally he was supposed to be more of the classical wise/helpful Owl and he was to give Graham more help and advise, but his role got changed to that of the cowardly Owl when the memor just couldn't support it.

If I ever decide to start into the Let's Play business and I do KQ5, one of the first things I will say is: "Now, I'm going to say something that might shock you. I... do not hate Cedric the Owl. At all."

Cedric hurts my ears if the sound is on too loud but he is hillarious.

"Watch out Graham a bear! Use your wand on the bear to turn him into a fish!"

That... actually would have been an interesting alternate solution to that puzzle.

Cedric: Ooh, watch out for the bear, Graham! Maybe you can use your wand on it!

Narrator: Graham gives the wand a good shake, but it only fizzles, and dies.

Bear: *punches Graham*

 :rofl:

I always loved the fact that the bear punches you to death.  The most common bear-related death out there don't you know. >__>

I never saw it as a punch, I saw it as a swipe of his claws.

Quote from: Sir Perceval of Daventry on March 14, 2013, 09:51:59 AM
Cedric is lovably annoying. I always liked him.
He was supposed to have much more to do. The only reason he stays out of certain places is because the programming/memory/whatever couldn't handle it and the game build would crash when he was on the screen in certain scenes. Originally he was supposed to be more of the classical wise/helpful Owl and he was to give Graham more help and advise, but his role got changed to that of the cowardly Owl when the memor just couldn't support it.

That's really interesting. I love how a system limitation changed a really significant part of his character. :P

That bear straight up punches you.  Man, he fights like Ali!!!


Bt

Quote from: GrahamRocks! on March 14, 2013, 09:03:16 PM
I never saw it as a punch, I saw it as a swipe of his claws.

Watch it again. He goes Rocky Balboa on your ass. Besides, "a swipe of his claws" isn't nearly funny enough.

Anyone else notice another funny death at the end of the game? When Mordack is a snake, try to cast the rain spell. HE WILL BITE YOU IN THE CROTCH.

Nice Mordack, you can force choke anyone you want, but no, go for the cobracrotch assault.

Too bad he never turns into a space hamster and attacks Graham's eyes.

Wouldn't he turn into a Combat Drone not a Space Hamster?

no i wish to see more adventures with kq and play new adventures with all characters, and i personally think the characters has enough potiential to write great new stories i always wanted to continune in ever kings quest game i have been playing.
So why stop that?kings quest is simple put but whats so bad about it? i would love to see after the silver lining, do see rosella and alexander in action again and wouldnt it be nice if you could have the chance to play valanice again?only in kq7 it was one time possible to play with her, i think the silver lining gives now the whole story line a  new more complex and deep storyline witch opens the way for more possibles and more great stories to come.

Why would you want to see what happens after TSL when you don't even know how it's going to end? For all we know, Graham could be dead by the end of the game. Personally, I think TSL should just stay the finale for KQ; otherwise, we would be having too much of a good thing. I want TSL episode 5 to come out, Kingdom of Sorrow eventually, and nothing else. KQ has suffered enough.

Thats your opinion as i said more and new stories with the other character would be great.
Who says that the have to suffer again? as a fact the characters are suffering that much because of the new storyline in the episodes, you can always change the story or write good and entertaining stories without to much suffering for the game characters.
I think the voting poll is clear there are for sure more people who want kq to continue on as only were in this thread people who didnt want that, well let me say it straight your opinion, but that is not what everybody else wants.

Okay, first things first.

You obviously didn't read my post very carefully. I said that the King's Quest franchise as a whole has suffered, not the characters. With how bipolar the series' tone ended up being, there is a very, VERY slim chance of you finding anybody out there who was satisfied with all of the games. As a matter of fact, I'd say that most people have a game in the series that they regard as great (KQ6, for most people), one that counts as a guilty pleasure (KQ5, for example), and most of the games in the franchise they won't care if they ever play again. I'm definitely not planning on replaying most of the games anytime soon.

Second, the "suffering" of the characters. That's part of a plot. There has to be some stress for our heroes to be under, some ever-present danger, some antagonistic force that puts them under pressure, thereby causing suffering in some way or another. Characters--especially the protagonists--must always suffer in some way, or else there is no plot, and by extension, no purpose. You cannot come up with a new story in a franchise without coming up with new dangers that put your characters in peril. Suffering is part of the story. That's just how it is.

Finally...

Quote from: Icerose on November 23, 2013, 06:55:02 PM
I think the voting poll is clear there are for sure more people who want kq to continue on as only were in this thread people who didnt want that, well let me say it straight your opinion, but that is not what everybody else wants.

Ah, the "you're in the minority so your opinion doesn't count" mentality. Let me tell you something, if I ever thought about how many times I'm in the minority in some way or another, I would never have come onto this forum in the first place. I wouldn't want to share my opinion because what do a bunch of strangers on a forum care about what some a-hole like me thinks? But that didn't stop me. We've had a lot of good back-and-forth arguments on this forum, with nobody ever coming out a clear victor, but we had fun while it lasted. Everyone in this forum is just themselves. And now, you have the audacity to suggest that my opinion on something matters less just because I'm in the minority?

I personally think if you dont want to hear other opionons why open this thread?
Why make poll if you surely thinks what the most people wants and wish for doesnt count?!
Oh yeah they were suffering that much well let me tell you something as a fact i never saw the characters suffering and getting hurting than much then in the episodes of the silver lining so it almost pained me to see what they were going through!

All of the Kings Quest had a nice atmosphere not let them suffer from the end to the beginning and every episodes at the of the silver lining it was looking like things getting worse at least roberta williams gave all her characters in the end a happy ending but you seemed to like theme struggeling over and over again?i can only laugh about it about the things you said to me oh yeah kq6 was kind of cruel and kq7 i am not listening anymore to this games speaks for itself and all of the kings quest games had some humor parts in it much more than the episodes had so dont tell me its soo much suffering for the characters to create new stories ok?!
I must not agree with your opinion accept it and now coming up with minority lol whats the matter dont like the fact to see that more people like you would love to play a new kings quest game?to bad there are more people who wishes for that then a handful of people think naah let it rest in peace if you think that way why did you created the silver linings?
It doesnt fit to what you defend, its not of imporantance as what how many people thinks and what one sinlge person thinks, but if what all you people did in this thread was telling kings quest better should stay dead after the silver linings, you  cant handle critic and as a fact the poll shows that there are enough people who doesnt agree with your opinion and wishing for more kinqs quest game to come, and thats what the poll is clearly showing than this is your problem to deal with not mine anymore and i will not myself anger  about it anymore.
And as for the minority werent the more people saying in this thread kings quest should stay dead?as a fact it is so i can say which is really in the minority place me and that my opinion doesnt count and i will not defend it anymore.

Quote from: Icerose on November 26, 2013, 08:43:07 PM
:furious:

Oh, man! That was great! Just what I needed to start my day! I smell a ban coming through.

Whenever I get butthurt about something, I at least know how to convey myself. But you?...were you even trying to make any sense? I could tell from just the first two sentences how nonsensical your retort was going to be. Either way, it was hilarious as all hell.

Besides, we all know what King's Quest post-TSL would be like...
http://www.postudios.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/TSLIITrailer.mp3 (http://www.postudios.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/TSLIITrailer.mp3)

sure i will not answer anymore you accept only your opinion not my problem anymore.
Must be a bad thing when so much people voted for a more Kinga quest Game to came out for you to  see after you all you have been supported so much in your opinion your behaviour is worse and i dont care anymore.
To bad the people who thinks Kings Quest should go on on not tried to post their mind why they are thinkings this, now wonders they didnt try..  people like you think they are the best and only there kind of thinking well keep thinking that way but that is not how the world works.
You can ignore the facts for as long as you live but guess what it wont change the fact that 13 people including me are not agreeing with your opinion but it seems sadly no one had the courage to say why after all you people did in here than was to say why it should better be stay dead no wonder the didnt say a thing anymore,because you can see what happens when someone like me did, and nope we didnt know what would happens when the silver line come out this was all in the hands of the producers from kings quest the silver Lining so stop i already like you know everything thats just swanky.

Icerose - Just because someone's opinion is in the minority, it does not make them "wrong" in some way. The question here of whether KQ should stay dead is purely opinion-based and there's no basis for any answer to that question becoming "fact" in any way. There's no need to start any argument over it or repeatedly point out that someone else's opinion is in the minority. That's perfectly acceptable and we expect everyone to be civil around here, even when they disagree.

Sry i will not agree with that kings Quest should be dead because most of the people said it here accept it ok?
I said why Kinga Quest could go on and thats my opinion you can disscuss  the more than you want i have my opnion and i will not throw it away from me because i am the first person the said ins this thread no it shouldnt stay dead and now just leave me alone! ::) :-\
I had enough arguments why i shouldnt stay dead it is my fault for people not accepting it? i accept your opinion to this if you cant do this with other people better stay away from them because your knowledge and your mind is NOT absolut and my behaviour was ok, but hey better i dont post here anyhting at all  anymore because people that dont agree with you and critism does not seem to be welcomed and i am not interested in that anymore.

Just to clarify - my post was not meant to be demeaning of anybody's opinion. I personally don't care either way. I'm merely posting in my role as moderator asking that you be respectful of the opinions of others. It wasn't really necessary for you to resurrect a thread that hadn't seen any action in eight months and start an argument about it, and I'm officially asking you not to do so again.

You're welcome to whatever opinion you want, but there's no need to be snippy with other people who disagree.

Yeah - it's a good thing when people have different opinions. Otherwise, life would get really boring. It's important to treat others respectfully, though.

Quote from: wilco64256 on November 27, 2013, 12:43:06 PM
Just to clarify - my post was not meant to be demeaning of anybody's opinion. I personally don't care either way. I'm merely posting in my role as moderator asking that you be respectful of the opinions of others. It wasn't really necessary for you to resurrect a thread that hadn't seen any action in eight months and start an argument about it, and I'm officially asking you not to do so again.

You're welcome to whatever opinion you want, but there's no need to be snippy with other people who disagree.

I didnt mean to pull out back old threads and i didn realized its an old thread if that is the fact better put it to the archives??
I just wanted to say my opnion to this thread and discuss it thats all. :)

Quote from: Icerose on November 27, 2013, 12:12:08 PM
i dont care anymore.

Quote from: Icerose on November 27, 2013, 12:27:17 PM
and now just leave me alone!

Oh my god...you're Tommy Wiseau! Oh man, I have so many questions for you!

In all seriousness, stop acting like you're a victim. You've only posted 23 times on this forum as of the time of this writing, and already your "woe is me" shtick is getting old.

Quote from: Icerose on November 27, 2013, 12:12:08 PM
people like you think they are the best and only there kind of thinking well keep thinking that way but that is not how the world works.

Trust me, I don't know you at all and I already know for a certainty that you don't know a thing about how the world works. It also appears you're projecting your own personality flaws onto others just because they think differently. You know who else wanted everyone to think exactly the same?...Nazis. Yep, I just went there.

Quote from: Icerose on November 27, 2013, 12:12:08 PM
You can ignore the facts for as long as you live but guess what it wont change the fact that 13 people including me are not agreeing with your opinion

Yep, because we all know an obscure online poll made by and for a fan community reflects the opinions of everyone in real life.

Quote from: Icerose on November 27, 2013, 12:12:08 PM
so stop i already like you know everything thats just swanky.

...I don't believe your improper use of the word "swanky" needs to be addressed.

Quote from: Icerose on November 27, 2013, 12:27:17 PM
I had enough arguments why i shouldnt stay dead it is my fault for people not accepting it?

It's definitely your fault for not accepting people committing the horrible crime of not mindlessly agreeing to everything 100% of the time.

Quote from: Icerose on November 27, 2013, 12:27:17 PM
my behaviour was ok, but hey better i dont post here anyhting at all  anymore

No. Your behavior was not okay, for reasons already outlined. I expressed my own opinion, you reacted negatively without even reading my post carefully, I clarified, and you started ranting. That is not how you're supposed to do things on a forum. I made a similar mistake on this forum not too long ago, and was warned about my behavior, and I learned a lesson from my mistake. You'd be wise to do the same. And if not...maybe you shouldn't post here. Either way, I'm done talking to you.

yupp  to compare with nazis is such a geat behaviour and i was accting so bad telling you that there are more people who wants kings Quest to live on than to see it dead forver and ever oh my i am such a bad person.
I am so terrible for having a different opinion as you, you pushed yourself in the minority place so everyone could see your the poor minority guy, you pushed yourself to the minority chair,  i didnt do this it was YOU!
For what reason did you that to get more poeple that would agree with you?if you dont like the facts than better dont look at it i was just speaking it out, as how it is and as the poll says,and i am such an a******..why dont we all have mercy with you, because i don want to agree with you ?
Really ive had it  with you, you  will not get anymore answers from me!

Look guys, can we please keep this discussion civil?  It's fine to have an opinion and debate all points, but it's rather inappropriate to be attacking each other like this.  Don't make me turn this thread around.

Sry for that, but i dont have anymore to say to him, for me the discussion is over, i was sarcastic in the last post and i admit that, for me the fun is over if someone else wants to disscuss with him fine, for me its settled.

Let's show 'em what they've won--a locked thread!

No name-calling. And be respectful of one another. These are basic forum rules, and everyone, including both of you, is expected to abide by them.

Okay, this is unbelievable. I just don't even.

New rule: No calling anyone slurs! Especially no calling anyone a Nazi if they come from a country that considers itself a victim of the NSDAP. Good? Good. For the record, this is the list of countries that considers themselves victims of the NSDAP:

-Poland
-Czech Republic
-Slovakia
-Russia
-Austria
-France
-Israel
-Norway
-Belgium

This list is not exhaustive, but might be a handy guide for future reference. Although why you'd ever need to reference it in the future, I don't know. :P

Also: native speakers of English please be aware that not everyone has had the luxury of growing up with English fluency and therefore go easy on the sarcasm and be nice.

Now please stop escalating this silly thread. You can both have opinions on this, they can both be valid and there is no need for personal attacks. One might say that both the King's Quest franchise and the members of the Royal Family are victims of the bipolarity and shifting moods of the series. Maybe they deserve a break. In an asylum. Please visit it and have cookies.

Jamie-Input: I feel like this is the point where, in Crusader Kings, you'd have to start executing people.

If this continues, there will be bans.