Quote from: Baggins on August 06, 2006, 10:30:57 PM
However, because TSL isn't published by the official company that has the rights to King's Quest IP, its a work of Fanfiction, and is therefore unofficial, just like the King's Quest VGA remake, KQ2 Remake and the King's Quest 3 remake.
Baggins, yes,.TSL is unofficial...technically.
But...Let's say VG ever made their own King's Quest, and it starred some character named Lord Bygar from a land called Axyia who was was going on a troll killing spree and had nothing to do with Daventry and was a FPS action/fantasy game. Now, ''officially'' that would be part of the King's Quest series, and would legally be canon.
But...ethically, and as far as plot, would something such as that be a real King's Quest game, and real King's Quest canon simply because it was marketed under the Sierra brand name? Let's face it, the company that created King's Quest no longer exists except in name, so to be technical about it, any game by Vivendi would also be unofficial except from a legal standpoint.
Also, I've seen you mention how TSL's timeline changes some things of the official King's Quest timeline. Well...Like for example Graham being 19 in KQ1...In the game itself (and neither in it's manual; I have the original King's Quest game with it's original box and manual and also the King's Quest collection). From what I've seen, Graham's age is never referenced in King's Quest I. Maybe it was referrenced in a later version of KQ1's game box, but...the packaging isn't official cannon, because it can divurge at times from what is seen in game. In King's Quest IV he's referred to as "Old King Graham" and yet in KQ5, he doesn't appear all that old. And his appearence from KQ4, KQ5, and KQ6 changes much. The only things similar about his appearence in those three games is his gray hair, and his outfit. His facial appearnece looks quite different in each game.
The King's Quest companion and novels are really on the same level of canon as TSL; basically fan-fiction that is pretty much accepted as canon by fans and was licened by Sierra (or Vivendi in TSL's case.)
The manual for KQ4 actually call graham old, it does call "king Edward", old. It doesn't actually make any comments towards Graham's age.
Graham is called "old" in KQ5 during a few narrative spots IIRC, if you use eye icon on him, or something around him. So leave that to interpretation of the character that apparently some people consider a 44+ character old.
TSL isn't licensed by Vivendi, at least not the "official license", but rather a provisional "fan license". It just has a limited permission to make the game. Infact Vivendi made sure they couldn't actually use the name "King's Quest".
Like it or not, manuals are official secondary sources of information to the game and therefore more official than TSL's timeline or game. Especially considering that Roberta was behind them. (TSL will always remain unofficial even if Vivendi Sierra decided to go the route of creating a King's Quest Sidestory covering another king in another land in the world of King's Quest).
The King's Quest companion and the novels on the other had is official sierra authorized work, and has Roberta, Jane Jenson, Ken Williams, John Williams and other King's Quest Designers and sierra staff behind it.
Peter Spear was directly involved with getting plot details from them years before later games were released (He also apparently was able to influence some of the story writers and designers, and was the reason why Derek Karlavaegen exists in Jane Jenson's KQ6 Guidebook Manual).
Portions of the book were released with King's Quest series as pack-ins, or in files on the disks. It was heavily advertised with portions reprinted by the official sierra Interaction magazine back in the day as well. If you know where to look, there are even more refrences to the books to be found within later official sierra material as well.
Even Roberta considered it a must have for anyone hoping to explore the series in greater depth and detail.
Additionally it was designer/story writer of KQ7 Lorelei Shannon established King Graham's age during hte King's Quest series in both the official King's Quest 6 hintbook(which had Roberta and Jane Jenson behind it as well), and later in her KQ7 Hintbook as well.
What people don't seem to know is that Roberta usually never did the writing of the stories herself(or at least not all of it). She usually just came up with a base concept and outline and had other authors helped do the writing for her to flesh things out a bit.
Even TSL considers the companion a part of their game. Where do you suppose they got the name Hassan? Its not mentioned in the game itself. Their timeline issues are mainly research snafus, and could easily be fixed in time. If not, well Peter Spear's unofficial adaptation of game will probably have discrepencies with the official companion, and the original timeline.
Quote from: Baggins on August 10, 2006, 09:50:24 AM
TSL isn't licenced by Vivendi. It just has a limited permission to make the game. Infact Vivendi made sure they couldn't actually use the name "King's Quest".
Just to clarify this, we have been licensed in the sense that we are permitted use of all necessary Sierra IP, but our game is not to be marketted as an
official sequel to the series. :)
I'm referring to the difference between the "official license" and "fan license". They are two different ballparks.
Peter Spear, the manual/strategy guide authors and "trilogy novelists" had the official license for example, and direct support from Roberta herself in some fashion (giving them story information behind the scenes or what not), or were the story writers of the games themselves expanding on their story in the paper form.
Ahh I see. However, one could also say "video game storyline" and "KQ companion storyline" are two different ballparks as well, considering more people have played the games than read the books. :P
I'm just pointing out that the companion, manuals and novels had the "official license". That just puts them a league higher than "fan license".
But I would agree that they can be considered secondary material to the game, with the game's being primary sources, but still are official sources of information.
Quote from: Baggins on August 10, 2006, 10:31:26 AM
I'm just pointing out that the companion, manuals and novels had the "official license". That just puts them a league higher than "fan license".
Oh definitely. But I think what tends to happen (along with a lot of things in life) is whatever is more widely known and most recent gets the most "airplay". While it is factually true that something said 30+ years ago in KQ1 is true, how many people today would actually know this, without having played previous games and/or reading the KQ novels? :P
As for game storylines often there were more than one way of doing things heh heh, so essentially each player would have their own unique take on the storyline(they "directed the action").
The companion's version tended to be a variation on the full points version of the games. Many manuals, and other guides tended to follow the companion's versions of events.
Timeline dating was pretty consistent in all manuals/guidebooks/hintbooks, etc in the series, and were in line with companion's dating as well.
Its actually quite suprising for a series that seemed to not have any "tolkien level" of consistency from one game to the next.
Quote from: Baggins on August 10, 2006, 10:43:48 AM
As for game storylines often there were more than one way of doing things heh heh, so essentially each player would have their own unique take on the storyline(they "directed the action").
Usually, people assume the storyline to be the most ideal path that completes the game (i.e. the long path in KQ6 & the good ending in KQ7), however I do consider manuals and guidebooks part of video game storyline, since they are packaged with the product. 8)
And while I'm glad the companions respected the aformentioned game design, having not been an actual collaboration with the game designers, one could see Peter Spear's storyline as "endorsed fan-fiction", rather than KQ canon. :scholar:
QuoteUsually, people assume the storyline to be the most ideal path that completes the game (i.e. the long path in KQ6 & the good ending in KQ7), however I do consider manuals and guidebooks part of video game storyline, since they are packaged with the product.
That's the thing, there was more than one way of solving the "ideal" path. Infact KQ7 had more than one version of "ideal" path. KQ6 had more than one version of the Idea path. example; you could get cassima's hair, or you could get beauty's hair and still get the same points Or you could talk to Ali before you talked to the Hakim, or talk to the guards before you talked to either, to find out to find out where you were, and depending on who you chose, you would alter the conversations of those other characters if you talked to them later. Thus there was dialogue you could miss depending on which character you chose to speak to first, and yet you could still get full points.
So basically the player directs the story, and the story isn't going to be the same for each player.
QuoteAnd while I'm glad the companions respected the aformentioned game design, having not been an actual collaboration with the game designers, one could see Peter Spear's storyline as "endorsed fan-fiction", rather than KQ canon
Actually, Peter Spear was in collaboration with the game designers even from the first edition, as he mentions in the forward and acknowledgements to the book, as well as designers using his material in later manuals, and guides(its also mentioned in the "about the author" section as well). This is probably why portions of his book are actually on king's quest collections, or were packed in with some versions of the game, or why designers like Lorelei Shannon actually refrenced his books in their King's Quest material. There was actually a special King's Quest floppy version collection that came with the first or second edition of the guidebook for example.
KQ5 manual for example refrences a plot element from companion, and KQ6 manual was created with major collaboration between Jane Jensen. eluki bes shahar, and Peter Spear.
Also people tend to consider officially licensed material using the term "profic' rather than "fanfic", even though I'm sure as a writer he was also a fan. But since he was chosen by Sierra to write the book, he's more official, than the average web fanfic writer.
If you didn't know the terms, Shield of Achille, Chest of Gold, and Merlin's Mirror were coined by Peter Spear.
Those terms did not exist in any previous game, but were refrenced in later game manuals.
In the original game it was just the Magical Chest, Magic Shield, and the Magic Mirror.
It was Peter Spear that gave them more detailed names.
Quote from: Baggins on August 10, 2006, 11:11:41 AM
Actually, Peter Spear was in collaboration with the game designers even from the first edition, as he mentions in the forward and acknowledgements to the book, as well as designers using his material in later manuals, and guides(its also mentioned in the "about the author" section as well). This is probably why portions of his book are actually on king's quest collections, or were packed in with some versions of the game, or why designers like Lorelei Shannon actually refrenced his books in their King's Quest material.
Ahh, I didn't know he worked with them during the creation of the novels. Ok, in that sense I consder his novels to be part of KQ canon then. :)
As far as having an "official" or "fan license" I will say, personally, that I don't think Vivendi has the power to say what's canon or not just because they own the license. It would be unfair to say that if we were to acquire the KQ rights, then we could dismantle Roberta William's world and call ourselves the "true" King's Quest, without her approval.
However, we do have her approval. Even if she hasn't read the plot and doesn't want to get involved whatsoever, she did give us her approval. In a way, she gave us the permission to tell our story about the KQ universe in whatever way we wanted. One of the reasons she did not want to get involved (legality aside) was because she didn't want to have any imput or change our way of telling this story.
so, being the author, and by giving us her approval and her support, she also gave us a sort of "official" stamp.
To me, that's really what matters.
Insofar as the world of Kings Quest only *exists* in the minds of its fans, I suspect the ulitmate answer lies in what each fan will accept as canon rather than what some of sort of Kq Ecumenical council says. ;D Not to say that some sort of logically consistant storyline isn't a good thing, but I'm not sure that one can say what *canon* is. :)
I think if there was one person who wrote all the games, then you could (i.e. JRR Tolkien with LOTR) but since the KQ series is not like that, and since it spans 3 decades, used different designers, sports many fangames & fanfics, and has novels based off it, it's a little too difficult to define what is considered "KQ canon" and what isn't. 8)
Which is why I personally don't like the term "canon" entirely... It sounds way to religious.
I prefer using official vs. nonofficial...
TSL is nonofficial by all technical definitions of the word. But that doesn't mean that it can't tell a good story and can't have its own version of continuity.
I also would like it if things were as consistent as possible having few contradictions (some things aren't actually contradictions but evolution of characters over the time between the last time they were seen).
But as we have seen over the course of several fan remakes, that each team has their own takes on the stories they don't even remain consistent between each team's stories or with the original story.
Thus why in omnipedia we try to keep a neutral stance. We simply mention the differences. We don't negatievely berate the differences, it must remain unbiased. However all historical synopses to a characters remain true to the original released games, than the remakes (remakes historical notes are mentioned in a seperate heading to seperate their altered continuity).
I refer to the differences as "alternate histories". This applies to all other forms of fanfiction including written short stories and novels that take place after MoE. Since the contradictions can't all exist on the same timeline, and not all the short stories can exist in the same universe as well.
BTW IGN article makes the destinction between your game's "Fan license" and the "official license" so apparently it does mean something to some people.
Quote from: Baggins on August 12, 2006, 04:50:43 PM
BTW IGN article makes the destinction between your game's "Fan license" and the "official license" so apparently it does mean something to some people.
Yep, to copyright holders and lawyers. ;) To the rest of us, it doesn't make that much of a difference. As long as you're legally given permission to use intellectual property by the owners of that IP, I'd say you're considered "official".
Canon on the other hand is subjective, because as I said before, there wasn't one sole designer with one strict vision. To use another example, the KQ series had no George Lucas. Roberta Williams is considered close, but due to the different designers involved there is quite a distinction between her and Lucas.
"Official" counts for legal purposes, not canon. I'm pretty sure there is no law regarding what 'canon' is or is not. :P
"Canon Law"
Which is again a stupid religious term anyways...
Most companies that use the term "canon" tend to use it to refer to things that the IP owners consider canon. Star Trek only views the live action tv shows and movies as canon for example.
Lucas Film considers pretty much every single source of Expanded Universe as part of "canon". Movies being "primary canon". Fanfic is considered "non-canon".
Fanon, or "personal canon" is the term used by fans who define their own "canon", and may include "fanfic" in their personal views.
Usually the terms Canon and Official, and some cases "continuity" are interchanged when used by the companies, and mean the same thing. Sometimes the terms get combined, for example, "official continuity", "official canon", "canon", "canon continuity", etc, get tossed around.
I've seen King's Quest fans go by either Sierra produced games as being canon only, they don't even accept the manuals.
I've seen other King's Quest fans choose to follow original games and manuals, and guides only.
Another viewpoint I've seen is people consider Games canon, and manuals and guides "secondary" source of canon.
Still others that will only accept something if Roberta is directly involved.
Still others I've seen, ignore the original versions of games and choose to follow the fan remakes in their personal continuity.
Plus many other permutations of how people view things. Thus why in the omnipedia I tend to use the term "Alternate Histories" as it allows for many different personal histories to exist.
Quote from: Baggins on August 12, 2006, 10:03:10 PM
Still others I've seen, ignore the original made games and choose to follow the fan remakes in their person continuity.
If you mean me, it's more because I don't have the original games (nor the time to play even the KQ3+ remake). :P But in general, the only people would do that is due to technology limiting them. If the KQ Compilations ever come out, people will value the official storyline over fan remake.
No I didn't mean you specifically, since you have said that POS is using the original history, not the remake's alternate history(there is no way the two histories can exist on the same timeline, just way too many differences).
However many of the things you posted to me you thought KQ2 original was missing was actually in the game's manual's short story and introduction movie(just past the credits), in all its AGI graphics glory. Such as "why graham was looking for a wife". Many of the other things you brought up are actually explained if you "look" or talk "npcs" or look at inventory items and screens in the game.
Here's hoping the compilations ever come out... I'm tired of having to tweak my system just to play the originals through dosbox and VDMsound...
Just thought I'd drop my own little bit of input here in regards to Graham's age and appearance.
As has been stated in the thread, Graham's age is never specifically defined in the games. It was, however, mentioned indirectly in the assorted manuals and certainly expanded upon by Peter Spears (I haven't had the pleasure of reading his book... but plan to).
As for his appearance.... this is a spoiler so....
[spoiler]
The Magic Fruit that Rosella gave to Graham in the "good" ending of KQIV not only cured him of his deteriorating heart condition, it also rejuvinated him. Hence why his appearance looks somewhat younger in KQV. He's still the same age, but it's also evident he is still experiencing some after-effects from the Magic Fruit.
[/spoiler]
As for his appearance in KQVIII, it's difficult to tell exactly when the game takes place in regards to the overall KQ storyline. There's no mention of anything that could possibly give an indication of the passage of time... most notably in the lack of any reference to Alexander and/or Rosella (whose ages can be closely approximated since they are twins and they were both introduced in the same time period that was KQIII).
As for the topic of canon lore, I personally consider the following to be canon lore:
-> Each of the King's Quest games (including, I'm sorry to say, KQVIII), including, but not limited to, the game storylines, box art, manual information (most especially the manual that came with KQVI due to it's historical background information on the Land of the Green Isles), and hintbooks.
-> Peter Spears "King's Quest Companion" book due to Peter Spear's close working relationship with Roberta Williams, Jane Jenson, and Lorreli Shannon (arguably the three most influential designers in the KQ franchise).
Anything else would, in my opinion, fall outside the scope of canon lore.
QuoteHence why his appearance looks somewhat younger in KQV.
Its literally impossible to tell if he looks older in KQIV compared to KQ5, based on the differences of graphic engines. Graham's face is only 16 colors and pixelated in KQ4, while 256 colors in KQ5.
Any idea of him looking "younger" in KQ5 is based on personal opinion. I'm not sure I would actually agree with your opinion, but I respect your opinion.
QuoteIt was, however, mentioned indirectly in the assorted manuals
Its actually mentioned directly in the hintguides by Lorelei Shannon for KQ6, and KQ7.
QuoteAs for his appearance in MoE, it's difficult to tell exactly when the game takes place in regards to the overall KQ storyline. There's no mention of anything that could possibly give an indication of the passage of time...
This is true, no exact date is given. According to the producers he is "old"(which can be open to interpretation on what people consider "old"). No cues are given in game besides the fact that Graham's had aged in appearance. As he appears frail in cutscenes and having pure white hair in the cutcenes and painting.
QuoteAs for the topic of canon lore, I personally consider the following to be canon lore:
While I respect your personal canon, I'd also like to point out that the three official King's Quest novels themselves were created through input with Sierra employees and marked the stamp of the King's Quest and Sierra trademarks. Interviews with the authors were made in Interaction Magazine as I remember.
They tell side stories that do not interfere with any of game's stories, and cover points in history not covered in the games, nor by Peter Spear, but fit into their own unique point in history. They also contain a few refrences to Peter Spear's works as well.
Based on their relatively unimportant events, and happening during unmentioned points in time in history portrayed in the games, they are not likely to be contradicted by any future sources, official or otherwise.
Quote from: Baggins on August 13, 2006, 06:31:43 PM
QuoteHence why his appearance looks somewhat younger in KQV.
Its literally impossible to tell if he looks older in KQIV compared to KQ5, based on the differences of graphic engines. Graham's face is only 16 colors and pixelated in KQ4, while 256 colors in KQ5.
Any idea of him looking "younger" in KQ5 is based on personal opinion. I'm not sure I would actually agree with your opinion, but I respect your opinion.
QuoteIt was, however, mentioned indirectly in the assorted manuals
Its actually mentioned directly in the hintguides by Lorelei Shannon for KQ6, and KQ7.
QuoteAs for his appearance in MoE, it's difficult to tell exactly when the game takes place in regards to the overall KQ storyline. There's no mention of anything that could possibly give an indication of the passage of time...
This is true, no exact date is given. According to the producers he is "old"(which can be open to opinion on what people consider "old"). No cues are given in game besides the fact that Graham's had aged in appearance. As he appears frail in cutscenes and having pure white hair in the cutcenes and painting.
QuoteAs for the topic of canon lore, I personally consider the following to be canon lore:
While I respect your personal canon, I'd also like to point out that the three official King's Quest novels themselves were created through input with Sierra employees and marked the stamp of the King's Quest and Sierra trademarks. Interviews with the authors were made in Interaction Magazine as I remember.
They tell side stories that do not interfere with any of game's stories, and cover points in history not covered in the games, nor by Peter Spear, but fit into their own unique point in history. They also contain a few refrences to Peter Spear's works as well.
Based on their relatively unimportant events, and happening during unmentioned points in time in history portrayed in the games, they are not likely to be contradicted by any future sources, official or otherwise.
The biggest problem I see with the three novels is even though they can all be classified as "back story", they do define elements of history that is typically covered under canon. Lucas had to face a similiar situation while doing the Star Wars prequels because the Expanded Universe already covered in varying degree's of detail Anakin Skywalker's fall from grace and the paticulars in how he became Darth Vader. Because the Expanded Universe version of events is so widely known, Lucas was essentially pigeonholed into what had already been potrayed in the E.U. He still had some leg room to interject his own "creative vision", but he still had to follow the basic concepts set forth by the E.U. novels because they had become canon by the fanbase.
The same pigeonhole effect can occur with King's Quest. Novels that deal with history, no matter how vague they are as to where they fit into that history, can still be taken as canon by the fanbase.
I should point out that novels and fiction that take place in the future are not saddled with this potential problem. For example, no one considers the events in the Dark Jedi series of Expanded Universe books to be canon. The same can possibly be said about TSL, since technically it takes place at some point in the future after the events of Mask of Eternity. The chances of the events of TSL becoming canon is slim because it takes place at some point in the future (though it can be inferred the game takes place during the lifespan of the current royal family) so it's presense won't interfere with any possible "official" sequel that Vivendi Universal may or may not put out.
Actually... on that paticular thought... any "official" sequel that is put out could be assumed to take place before the events of TSL (depending on whatever story is developed) and if that's the case, TSL could always be viewed as the end of the series, despite whatever "official" sequels are released (again, assuming the stories any "official" sequel is based on utilizes the current royal family).
QuoteFor example, no one considers the events in the Dark Jedi series of Expanded Universe books to be canon
What is the dark jedi series?
Cause Lucasfilm has dictated that practally everything is canon unless htey specifically mark it with "infinities".
Do you mean Jedi Academy Series, or Young Jedi Knights?
Those are actually considered canon by LFL(as per endless "canon" vs. Non-canon questions posed to Star Wars Insider Mag over the years).
Few fans do not accept those in their personal canons.
Quote
TSL could always be viewed as the end of the series, despite whatever "official" sequels are released (again, assuming the stories any "official" sequel is based on utilizes the current royal family).
As for TSL timeline Phoenix Online Studios has been pretty specific with their dates.
They set MOE a few months after KQ7, and they place TSL about 1 year after MOE. Alexander and Rosella are 21 in the game. Rosella was almost 20 according to the KQ7 intro for example.
I doubt there would be room to place TSL after an official KQ9, if for example Rosella and Alexander turned out to be 22 in the official game. It wouldn't necessarily fit before an official KQ9 as well.
In some ways TSL does not fit with MoE as we know it, as they have portrayed Graham a bit younger than how he was portrayed in MoE. They have de-aged his appearance in MoE by making him appear strong(not frail), and giving him darer grey hair rather than white hair as he appeared in MoE.
Their version of events of MoE as when they placed the game in their timeline makes Graham go from grey hair as seen in KQ6 to pure white hair over course of about 2 years, and then going back to an even darker grey.
Apparently MoE team saw the game as having occured at least half a decade after KQ7, allowing time for Graham's hair to go white naturally.
So TSL has its own interpretation on the history, and when they placed the events of MoE, and chose to ignore certain aspects of MoE where it helped the narrative flow of their game's story.
I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think the reason why our designers chose to ignore MoE is fairly obvious. Had MoE done its job plot-wise (at least), our game would not exist and the series would possibly still be thriving. :P
We've said already that we'll be using Connor, Sarah and the Mask of Eternity in our game, but any other nonsensical hack-and-slash plot isn't being developed in our game. For people wanting that particular canon to be developed, they are free to play any other action/adventure game from the early to mid 90's. 8)
Regarding Star Wars, I don't think George Lucas particularly cared what his fans wanted. If you look at the prequels, they always took his creative direction which contrasted greatly with the Star Wars fan community. Perhaps this was his intent for plot progression, perhaps it wasn't. Still for me, I only really enjoyed Episode 3, but not because he made it or because it was Star Wars. I enjoyed it as a standalone movie. But to get back on-topic, no one disputes his work as canon, as he is the sole creator (past and present), whereas the KQ series had several different ones.
Dark Jedi was where Luke was turned to the Dark Side.
You mean Dark Empire Trilogy of comics?
I'm sorry to burst your bubble but even that is considered part of LFL's list of canon, accordeing to Lucasfilm Insider Magazine, other Star Wars books, and official star wars website.
Its also been used extensively by many EU books.
As I mentioned before Lucasfilm's policy is that movies are primary canon and most if not all EU is considered, Secondary Canon.
The material they do not consider canon is marked with "infinities",, or at least that used to be their system.
But enough of that, as we are getting incredibly off topic.