To Our Fans:
In 2005, Phoenix Online Studios received a Cease & Desist letter from Vivendi Universal, the owners of the King's Quest IP, in regards to our work on The Silver Lining. We complied with the request, and over the months that followed, we were able to work out a non-commercial fan license with Vivendi that allowed us to continue our work on the game.
We have spent a lot of time recently reworking the material of The Silver Lining into episodic releases, with the first out of a planned five episodes completed, and submitted for review, and had hoped we would be able to bring our game to you, the fans, in the Spring of 2010.
Recently, however, ownership of the Sierra IP changed hands and became the property of Activision. After talks and negotiations in the last few months between ourselves and Activision, they have reached the decision that they are not interested in granting a non-commercial license to The Silver Lining, and have asked that we cease production and take down all related materials on our website.
As before, we must and will comply with this decision, as much as we may wish we could do otherwise.
We cannot say enough how much we appreciate the support we have had over these years from our fans. Without you, we would never have gotten this far. There would be no game to develop, and no one to develop it for. You have been amazing and steadfast, and we will always remember that and appreciate it more than we can say.
Sadly, after eight years of dedicated work and even more dedicated fans, The Silver Lining project is closing down.
What the future holds for us, as individuals or a team, we cannot say. We have an amazing development team, however, filled with talented and hard-working individuals, and we hope the teamwork and rapport we've developed won't go to waste. We hope that when we do know what the future holds for us, our fans will be there to enjoy what we can give them still.
Again, thank you all so much for everything. This has been a long and crazy road, full of more twists than we could've anticipated, but more triumphs and wonderful memories than we could've ever hoped for. And for that, to all of you and to everyone on our team, we will always be grateful.
Thank You,
The Silver Lining Development Team
UPDATE:
Here are a few related links of interest:
Save TSL Petition (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8398.0) - Petition link: here (http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/savetsl/)
Save TSL Facebook Group (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=382202612795&ref=mf)
Save TSL MySpace Page (http://www.myspace.com/savetsl)
Form Letter for Contacting Gaming Websites (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8397.0)
Form Letter for Contacting Activision (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8406.0)
List of websites discussing C&D (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8416.0)
TSL Demographics Survey (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8435.0)
Interviews:
ShDon Interview (http://www.shdon.com/blog/2010/03/14/the-silver-lining-followup-an-interview-with-the-team)
MediaWhoreNetwork Interview - Part One (http://www.mediawhorenetwork.com/2010/03/restore-restart-quit-an-interview-with-phoenix-online-studios-part-one/) and Two (http://www.mediawhorenetwork.com/2010/03/restore-restart-quit-an-interview-with-phoenix-online-studios-part-two/)
IncGamers Interview (http://www.incgamers.com/Interviews/261/the-silver-lining-interview)
Joystiq Preview (http://www.joystiq.com/2010/04/01/hands-on-the-silver-lining-the-game-activison-doesnt-want-you/)
Kotaku PAX Interview (http://kotaku.com/5529809/the-sequel-they-had-no-right-to-make--now-has-a-surprise-twist)
Again? Hasn't the game industry harmed this game enough as it is?
This is the biggest disappointment to have woken up to. I'll probably have more opinions when I've woken up more. But damn. Everything, just gone.
I don't suppose that a petition like the one that Cat ran in 2005 would have any effect on their decision? This is so sad and disappointing on so many levels -- no one here's fault, of course.
If there's no hope whatsoever of continuing the project if we protest loudly enough at the right people, is there any chance that in some sort of unofficial way the plot would be released? Even if maybe there was like an "unofficial TSL wiki" or something? :-\ I mean, we haven't heard much but it sounded truly epic (y'know, what came through between the :suffer:s! :P)
It is such a shame for all of that hard work to go to waste. :'(
Also, a shame, is that I just came back to the forums and now the forums are leaving me! :( We will all have to find a new forum to congregate on or something. I guess I'll start looking for us. :( And tomorrow I will write a long letter to Activision and send it to them by every means available.
I just think it's ludicrous that Activision have ordered a halt on ALL of the forums. I could understand getting rid of the TSL-related ones, but things like the Isle of Insanity? And the archives? I've been here (albeit inactively) since 2003, and all those memories are gone.
I'm hoping something can be done because for not only the game to go, but the forums, too? Ridiculous.
Regarding the forums, Cat and I will need to sort through the ones that are "TSL-related" and the ones that aren't. Unfortunately, we weren't given much notice to sift through and it will take some time.
So, once you guys have done that, at least the non-TSL related stuff will be put back up?
That's....what? Can they do that? You guys were GRANTED a fan license...do they really have the right to just revoke it? That's just...not...right. Everything you guys have done for this? All of the years that you guys have worked insanely hard, that we've all believed in you? You have to be kidding. Everything was so close..
Is there any chance a petition will work? We're not about to back off now, but Activision seems a LOT more uptight than Vivendi about IP...
Quote from: crayauchtin on February 28, 2010, 12:14:24 AM
So, once you guys have done that, at least the non-TSL related stuff will be put back up?
To be honest, I don't know. This is the only solution we could think of to keep the forums online without risking litigation.
*Sigh*
I'm very sad and disappointed. Best of luck to everyone on the team. :'(
Man I am sad to hear that. And pissed at Activision. Maybe we should form a petition? Just throwing the idea out there. I mean come on. What are they going to to do just scratch their huevos and get away with it? Man I am ticked off.
I say bring the forums back in an act of defiance.
If Activison sues, so be it. We will kick their butts easily! Not only do they have NO RIGHTS to make us take down our forum, but we had a license to TSL, that they promised to observe!
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I am so sorry to see this. :(
If there is anything I can do to help with the forum sifting and whatnot, give me a hollar Yonkey. I'm here for you all.
Words can't even begin to describe how disappointed I feel...not so much for myself, but for the TSL team who dedicated years of their lives to this dream. It's made worse by the fact that Activision has absolutely nothing to lose and no reason to feel threatened in any way by the existence of such a project.
If anyone starts circulating a petition to Activision, sign me up! I don't expect much will come of it, but at least they will know how we feel. :)
To the TSL team: we are grateful for your dream, your vision and your love for this project. All of your fans stand behind you on this. Maybe in the future, you can develop an original IP and be rewarded for your efforts.
I still don't understand why AGD and Infamous can do what they do, and TSL is somehow more of a "threat" to these goons. As much as I love those other folks' work, they're actually re-releasing Sierra's existing retail games (remade) for free. TSL is a new game that Sierra or Activision has never and will never earn profit from.
I haven't even been following development since the last C&D, but to hear that over eight years of work is "gone" because of Activision's nonsense is ridiculous. It really does seem that the ONLY way for fan projects like this is to just say nothing and release, and then pull it after a C&D comes... at least that way some will have downloaded and the game will be out in the wild... and therefore deservedly "unstoppable". :)
In this case, though, I say take a page out of Teardown's book (with their game 'Alien Assault'), and simply change enough of the names and backstory to make this your OWN IP and game. Sure, it's not ideal, but it would be completely legal (heck, how else do games like "Les Manley" get made... :D ), and your work would not be wasted.
The idea that they can make you take down your forums is legally preposterous, though. Sure, they can complain about releasing a "fan game with their IP, but not talking about making one! What next, shutting down GameFAQs message boards if people discuss wanting to mod a certain aspect of a game?!
Can they really do that? What's next? Sue people for owning the demo? I would love to sign a petion. Only if it's just to let them know how much hearts they are breaking. And why shutting down the forums? What about freedom of speech?
Are there alternative options for releasing the game? Like changing the characters names and how they look, or is there too much connection in the story line?
@Banjo: I was thinking the exact same thing.
Tis a sad day indeed. King's Quest has always been my favorite game of all time, and I've been watching and anticipating the this fan fiction for a decade. My deepest sympathies go to all who put effort on this project - what a terrible thing to have yanked out from beneath you.
Best to you all,
John
To the people wondering if Activision-Blizzard can do this...legally, I'm afraid they can. The contract the TSL-team went into with VU a few years ago could be terminated by either party at any time.
To the posters asking...the difference with AGD Interactive was the fact that by the time VU Games was taken over by Activision, KQ1VGA, KQ2+ and QFG2VGA were already out and even Activision probably realized that shutting down the official source would just result in a lot of unofficial mirrors. So we were allowed to keep going for the time being. (yeah, that last part was not my imagination, so if any of you fans are planning to write an angry letter to Activision...kindly focus on TSL and keep AGD Interactive out of it...it's too late for them to pull KQ1, KQ2 and QFG2, but I'd hate to see the site being ordered to close)
I knew how harsh Activision's ideas about their IP were and expected TSL's "review" to be a vicious tug-of-war to get it out, but I didn't think they'd pull the rug from under you at this stage. That word litigation set the hairs of my neck on end. I'm very sorry to hear this. I can't imagine a more anticlimactic way years of work can end. You've achieved a lot over the years. It's a shame this ends in such a downer. :-[
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashsad.jpg)
I am so crushed.
Kings Quest was the very first video game I liked and has shaped my opinions on story telling and narrative.
I just don't understand what Activision is thinking, if they were losing money or planned on making their own sequel, I would get it. Yet it seems like the only reason why they are stopping it because they feel threatened.
I think a petition could work, people shouldn't under estimate the power of a crowd.
The firefly movie and the last season of Kim possible were both released due to fan involvement.
If anyone starts anything, make sure you post it, we need to get people involved.
Wow. Not that I've ever participated in the forums or anything, but I've been appreciating and anticipating the work you guys have done for years. I personally will be writing a letter to Activision's corporate offices (their address is on their website in the "contact us" section) regarding how they approach relations with their fans. I'll certainly be keeping it in mind when I contemplate buying Activision products in the future.
I suggest everyone else do the same with a letter. Could someone create a template using appropriate talking points that people could sign their name to and submit? I think that letters are more effective than petitions, but I really want to see both!
Hey guys,
I've been following the development of TSL for many years now and this is really very sad news. However I want to throw my 2c into the argument for changing some key elements to differentiate it from KQ and moving forward with the game. Now this is just my very uninformed opinion and obviously the ones with the potential legal liability should make the final decision.
Anyway, I read an article by a legal expert on Joystiq a couple of weeks ago that discussed why the game Dante's Inferno is not considered copyright infringement of the God of War IP even though they are extremely similar in gameplay styles.
Now that doesn't directly apply here but in the article they mention another game called Journey to Silius that was originally based on a Terminator license which the developers then lost. They modified the game somewhat and were able to release the game commercially without it being infringing.
Since TSL is not even going to be a commercial release, I really think that this might be a viable option. Again, I am not a lawyer or anything so if you do decide to go this route it'd probably be best to at least get some real legal advice beforehand.
Here's the link to the article -
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/02/16/lgj-dantes-infringement-or-lack-thereof/
This should probably be a last resort after petitions etc have failed. Whatever you guys end up deciding to do, I wish you all the best!
Couldn't you just change the names of people and places and continue on? I mean, as long as KQ isn't referenced in there it's technically an unrelated game. People make parody games all the time, anyway, which to my knowledge is super legal if you're not making a profit on it.
Erik and I were talking last night when we received word from the team. I am completely heartbroken. Without the forums, we never would've met. Between being part of the team as well as meeting my husband here, TSL has been a huge part of my life.
Neil, as I said last night, I am ready to help go through the forums and help sift through the threads to bring some back.
As to a petition, I'm not sure if that will work. And even if it does (big IF...I only received the team email, I know nothing else), I doubt I can organize it, since I'm a team member this time around. I have to abide by Activision's C&D.
I've had this account for a long time. I hardly ever used it, I hardly ever visited the site. I only returned after receiving notification of new Journal Entries, which seemed to happen once again. Even though this account was made in early 2006, I've been checking this place for much longer than that. I remember the first Cease and Desist, I remember the furore and the sense of disappointment and deflation as accutely as I experience it now.
I feel so sorry for the team, having invested so much of their lives into creating this over the near-decade. If there's absolutely anything we can do to help revive the project and ensure that it can see its completion, let us know. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we'll do all in our power to assist.
This is absolutely ridiculous. I have been following this game since it was first announced all of those years ago and I cannot believe that after eight years of all of you working so hard, it's going to just disappear. What does Activision care? They no longer sell King's Quest or make money off of it. There would be no money made here either. It was a fan game, nothing more. It didn't threaten their rights to KQ or any of that other crap. It just makes me so mad.
Honestly, I don't think just an online petition will work right now. I think we need to send them emails AND snail mail to try and convince them to change their minds. Perhaps a petition alongside writing to them, but not by itself.
A part of me had hoped, probably unrealistically that Vivendi, or Activision now, would have asked to sell the game after reviewing it, and giving you guys a certain amount of the profits. Sadly, I think the people at Activision couldn't complete the episodes because they were too challenging so they decided to just pull the plug instead.
Anyway, I will continue to write to TPTB about this and damn near beg them to let you guys continue working and releasing the game because there has been entirely too much time spent into it for it to be wiped off the face of the earth like this.
Ugh, why would they go after the forums too?? :'(
I'd hope Activision would be willing to bend given a strong enough petition, but they seem even harsher than Vivendi. It's fricken ridiculous that these large conglomerates own IPs that they're basically not doing anything with, and never actually produced in the first place.
I, also, was wondering if I letter writing campaign would change anything? I would be happy to write some letters on behalf of the Silver Lining. I grew-up with the Kings Quest series and was ecstatic to hear about the fan based game.
Also, I was wondering if there might be some value in creating a fan-page on FACEBOOK? It would drum-up support for a letter writing campaign and I could definitely create one so that it wouldn't be affiliated with the Silver Lining staff...
Also, I have often thought I would buy a shirt in support of the Silver Lining, if proceeds could go to support the project....
I am sadden and dismayed by this news and my heart goes out to everyone who has worked so hard for this dream!
TSL is not beyond saving! This happened once before, and we, the community, reversed it!
Somebody, put together a petition! We could follow the model of "Let's Save KQIX" (http://www.savekqix.bravehost.com/).
This game has come too far to be stopped now!
Been lurking on this site for years waiting for this game to come out. Sad that heartless business wins again. So sorry to the dev team.
And ActivisionBlizzard was talking about selling the Sierra brand.
What a load of money grubbing crock Activision has turned into since Bobby Kotick took the wheel.
As cliche as it sounds, I hope you find a way to stick it to them and see your work come to fruition. Don't just roll over and take it.
There is something wrong here. What has got Activision got to do with this website? How can they say it must close down? Based on what? I'm sorry but I don't believe this. It sounds more of a developer "escaping" from something. Maybe they aren't able to finish the game. I don't see how can Activision force you to close this website. Last but not least, why should you stop the game development? You can just change all names in games, making no reference to the real king's quest.
I can't believe you just say "ok activision, we will throw into the bin 6 years of work instead of just changing names etc".
There is something wrong about this sorry, something you guys aren't telling us.
Bad troll. ::) Who let you out?
Also, even if that were the case, they really don't owe you anything. :P
Quote from: bulletxt on February 28, 2010, 08:01:29 AM
There is something wrong here. What has got Activision got to do with this website? How can they say it must close down? Based on what? I'm sorry but I don't believe this. It sounds more of a developer "escaping" from something. Maybe they aren't able to finish the game. I don't see how can Activision force you to close this website.
They specifically asked us to remove all material relating to TSL from our website, and to cease the use, display, distribution or exploitation of such materials.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo :(
Apart from some of the thread titles, at least in the VIP-forum, very little was KQ-related, you know. I also echo at what's been said by other posters, even if people talk about KQ in a forum, in my 'book' falls under 'freedom of speech', which even Activision is bound to honour.
Quote from: Deloria on February 28, 2010, 08:10:13 AM
Bad troll. ::) Who let you out?
lol
Also, wasn't Activision trying to sell off Sierra IP? To my mind that seems the strongest reason for their doing this: i.e.- why should they license anyone to do something for free with an IP they want to sell.
Quote from: copycat on February 28, 2010, 08:17:20 AM
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo :(
Apart from some of the thread titles, at least in the VIP-forum, very little was KQ-related, you know. I also echo at what's been said by other posters, even if people talk about KQ in a forum, in my 'book' falls under 'freedom of speech', which even Activision is bound to honour.
What CC said. The bulk of the forum was fan activity. I actually suspect that they requested the site be shut down to try to circumvent something like Save KQIX from happening again.
Quote from: Deloria on February 28, 2010, 08:10:13 AM
Bad troll. ::) Who let you out?
Also, even if that were the case, they really don't owe you anything. :P
I never much cared for this argument. It's like luring a horse with a carrot for miles and miles, only to throw the carrot in a lake just as the horse is expecting to finally get it. I guess they don't owe us anything, but we've had this carrot stuck in our face for a long time. I also don't think expressing regret makes someone a troll.
I feel immensely sorry for the team, however. So much hard work possibly gone to waste. I truly hope that these forums may at least be saved to some extent and that maybe we'll get to see this game released in some shape or form eventually. I may not have always been the most loyal fan of the project, but I know that tons of talented people have worked on this game, putting their love, sweat and tears into seeing it released and now Activision may take this all away from us.
My sincerest sympathies.. but a wish changes nothing.. like someone very wise on this forum always said. ;)
I did a little Web search, found Activision's "Contact us" page... If we contact them directly, and put up enough of a stink, along with the petition there is a chance we will catch their eye. If enough people care and fight TSL could stand a chance of coming back.
http://www.activision.com/index.html#contact|en_US
Also Their phone number.... Calling in (even if it is to a receptionist) if we could be enough of a pest about us they will listen...
Snail mail may work too... All the information we need to fight is on that contact us page...
First, thank you for the dream and all the hard work.
King's Quest IX and "The Silver Lining" are a lovely dream that we all believe in.
Unfortunately the weasel turds at Lacko'vision/Buzzard people at Activision/Blizzard seem to care for little more than profit. I am guessing they may want to have a petition and public notice (articles in Wired etc...) and after months of struggle try to fake being the nice guys by granting permission to publish. In the long run, they probably want to make sure nobody goes down this road again. A toy displayed in a museum where no one can touch it must look nicer than a toy being played with.
As to taking down the website ... those personally liable are wise to protect themselves from these asses short sighted corporate bean-counters. Team members who live in countries Activision/Blizzard can litigate in would be ... foolish ... not to comply.
I'm not sure how feasible it is for most folks, but please write a letter to Activision/Blizzard that lets them know how you feel. Mention a few game titles you will NOT be buying from them in the future. Let them know a few months later what other titles you chose not to get. Visit their forums and leave your mark. If you are a Warcraft fan ... stage a public suicide of your avatar and let all the players know what happened to Silver Lining and then find a free MMO to play.
Thank you again to the wonderful folk at KQIX/The Silver Lining ... your Phoenix will rise again.
Animan
If there is a petition ... obviously I will sign it.
Also, get your friends involved, use facebook and other online communities to bring awareness to the petition, to the fight, and suggest to the masses to not buy from Activision...
I think the whole thing is a little crazy, especially considering the vast amount of fan-created visual pollution - er, or do they just call them fan-vids and AMVs still? - on youtube created with virtually nothing but WoW game content, which is supposedly supported and encouraged by Acti-Blizz. Not to mention the countless add-ons that are sanctioned to be added onto player's games which drastically alter the appearance of the game's GUI or change the gameplay experience in other ways. To give people direct access to the core content of a game that's still actively being marketed and expanded on, but to shut down an unrelated project that isn't generating income or drawing income away from an active title is ... odd to me.
In the end, it's their prerogative though, and there's only so much that can be done directly. I do know, though, that even if the reviews I've read on Dante weren't already iffy enough to turn me off the game, this has done enough to turn me off the brand.
Deeply sorry for all that.
Just a naive question : Why did all these VGA remakes go out without any problem and this one is blocked ? I can't figure this out ! Is it because it's a sequel or is it because it appears to be to good enough and would probably compete with commercial games ?
Why ?
As many have already said, I too did not actively participate in these forums, but I have supported the team, and looked forward to the TSL news emails and the game. I was shocked to read that we've been thwarted once again. I also will be happy to participate in a letter writing campaign, and/or sign a petition. I do believe that numbers speak, and if Activision starts to get a lot of negative feedback, they may relent. Please continue to let us lurkers know if there's anything we can do. My sincere best wishes to everyone for future successes. And, thanks so much for all the hard work over the years.
Quote from: fred on February 28, 2010, 09:47:26 AM
Deeply sorry for all that.
Just a naive question : Why did all these VGA remakes go out without any problem and this one is blocked ?
They were approved and released while Vivendi still controlled Sierra IP. Activision is a completely different company with completely different management.
And now everyone comes flooding back.
Y'know, when I came sort-of-back from my hiatus from these forums, I said, "Man, the community's changed some, and it looks like it's waned some, but it's still here." However, all of the people coming here to post their ideas and sympathies illustrates that TSL has always had a loyal following, even if it wasn't evident by the activity on the forums.
Being a beta-tester for a while, I know what this game had to offer to fans, old adventurers, new adventurers, the genre of adventure gaming. I'm sad to say that it looks like every big game company is against this resurrection. And why? Are they afraid that this game by a fledgling team who's spent more than 8 years working on it is going to show them that as long as you have time, passion, and dedication you can make an excellent game? Or do they just fail to sympathize with fans trying to provide closure to a much-loved-and-revolutionary series of games. Roberta and Ken Williams revolutionized the computergaming market with their contributions to the adventure gaming genre. Now, Phoenix Online Studios was going to revolutionize the fan-made computergaming market with a beautifully rendered, well acted, magnificently scored, plot-driven adventure game. Hopefully this game will finally come to fruition.
Besides not really making sense, Activision's actions are downright rude. Members of this team have been working on this for over eight years. To be slapped in the face not once, but twice, by the wet fish of a C&D is just cruel. None of these hardworking and talented people deserve to have their creation repeatedly stepped on by big companies who couldn't care less about fan bases for old IPs.
As far as suggestions go, I don't have many that others haven't already stated. Perhaps if all else fails the script could be released as fan-fiction? Surely Activision wouldn't shut down fan-fiction.
Guys, I want to give you my full support. I love King's Quest, it's practically ingrained in my childhood, and I know that's the same with a lot of other fans. You guys are doing something amazing, and it deserves to see the light of day. I believe that every cloak truly does have a silver lining, and I await the day where you guys are granted the right to finish what you've started.
I'm a little curious, and this is directed toward Cesar-
Considering the success of Tales of Monkey Island, would Telltale Games be interested in leasing the King's Quest license? Considering you worked on those games, I figured you would be the best person to ask. I can't imagine the team giving up after almost 9 years of development. King's Quest IX's (I'm calling it that because I guess I can now) would easily fit the mold of the episodic game genre that Telltale has become known for. I certainly understand that compensating the various team members for their work might be a bit difficult.
This is disappointing on many levels, especially since these talks would have meant that you were close to the completion of the first episode. Having followed KQIX since it's inception way back when it was hosted on an Arizona State-hosted student website, I'm certainly bummed by the fact that I may never be able to play this work of art. Hopefully I will.
Rock on guys.
I agree with kindofdoon - we've fought a "Cease and Desist" order before and WON - it would be crazy not to fight this one!
However, as an absolute last resort, I think that all the game designers who have been working so hard for so long should salvage everything they can from this game (art, music, puzzles, etc.) and use them to make a new ORIGINAL game. (And I don't think they should worry if it's a bit of a legal rip-off of King's Quest. Most people will know why and forgive them.) Judging from what I've seen on this site, I think their work is definitely worth saving in one form or another.
This can't be again...
Something must be done, we have all seen how successful has Tales of MI been, why can't the same be done with TSL?
I'm not buying anything from Activision until TSL sees the light.
Like so many others in this thread, I'm ALSO a dyed-in-the-wool TSL fanboi only now crawling out of the woodwork. =P
You guys deserve so much better than this. People who actually care about the quality of their work, and are passionate about their audience, are increasingly rare, and yet it came to you guys without a second thought. You guys shouldered the burden of creating a fitting ending to a titanic game series, and came so far, in the face of so many obstacles.
Even more important, though, you created a nice little niche for people who originally only shared a love for King's Quest to come together and hang out. Based on the number of people who spent so much time here over the years, it seems obvious that you guys founded a community where TSL at times was almost an afterthought, compared to you guys just hanging out and having a good time with each other. The fact that you did such things, invaluable in and of themselves, is something that Bobby Kotick, power-drunk and money-grubbing though he is, can never take away from you. Nor can anyone else. You guys did GREAT.
To everyone else: as I've just said, the TSL staff is more than just "people making a game" to us - they are our friends, and they need our help. I regrettably have the MCAT coming up next month, and can't spearhead a campaign or petition, but I can and will help whoever can in any way possible. The fact is, our friends are in trouble, with a HUGE amount of work at risk of being squelched forever. We gotta help them out in any way we can.
Just an old member but is it possible maybe Activision is/or wants to make their own KQ9 and that's why they sent TSL the C&D
Yonkey-
I'm aware you're a TSL insider; I have a quick question.
Is the TSL team negotiating with Activision about TSL's future? If not, what are the team's future goals regarding TSL?
I just can't believe that TSL is done here. We've all got to fight for it!
My heart just dropped when I saw the subject line of the email this morning. I didn't trust myself to reply until now.
Needless to say, this is tremendously upsetting. Don't think it's truly sunk in yet. When I first saw the post about Activision taking over, it worried me, but I didn't really believe that they would actually destroy something so many people have worked on for so long and has so many loyal followers.
No matter what happens, I'll always be very glad that I found this project and its community that has come to mean so much to me over the years. Learning to post here and being accepted into such a wonderful community was not a small part of the reason I've come as far as I have in overcoming my social anxiety disorder over the past four years, and for that I will always be grateful.
I will certainly be contacting Activision at some point - there's no way they're getting away with this without some awareness of the disappointment and grief that they've caused in killing such an amazing project. :(
*breathes a long, exasperated sigh*
This really stinks. As many of you, I've been here for a very long time and just read about this. To express my feelings of sadness would be woefully inadequate when remembering the team who put their time, talents and a great portion of their lives into trying to make TSL what is was becoming. Immediately, I thought back to the first C&D and that same weight came resting back on me.
As sad as I am (and please don't think me callous, I don't mean it that way at all.) I realize that this is simply a game from a legal perspective. For many of us, it's so much more, but for B/A it's a matter of competition on a franchise they own and haven't owned for very long. I get their need to protect it, but it doesn't mean I like how they're going about doing it.
I've been active on and off - admittedly more OFF - for several years, and to have this thrown in my face with the events of the past few days (some personal, some more global) directly affecting me or members of my family seriously feels like a major slap in the face.
So... to Neil and everyone whose names I don't recall at the moment (sorry!) I just want to say 'Thank you!' for the time and sacrifices you have made to this point, and express my heartfelt sadness at the pain you all must be facing.
I too will raise my voice, but I think I need a day or two for the shock to pass (and for regular business hours to be in effect)
We will not go silently - our voices will raise, and if we speak united our cries will be heard.
I saw mention that Sierra's IP was going to be sold by Activision to yet someone else, maybe the buyer might be a little more tolerant? Heck, why don't we all start making a bid for it? ;) I'm sure it only costs about $10 million.
Seriously though, if it is true that they are doing the C+D because they are trying to sell the IP, then it's probably best to be patient. Hopefully one day the IP will fall in the hands of someone who is trustworthy and will do justice to the Sierra name.
Actually, all contracts transfer with the sale of the company. By law, Activision must honor the contract between Phoenix Studios and Vivendi. You can sue them for breach of contract and collect damages.
Even so, Fenroth... I believe Yonkey mentioned that the contract read in such a way that either party could cancel at any time. Meaning B/A could cancel without legal consequence as that was part of the written contract that the TSL team signed.
Correct me if I'm wrong, please :D
I've been silently following this project for about 6 years, and I remember the last time this happened. It was too bad we couldn't act fast enough to release it before Sierra's IP changed hands. In a very real sense, this has been draggged out over nearly 10 years, so it would be just too much to revamp everything.
Can't the story go into fan fiction then? So the secret can be let out. I'd hold onto the demo and everything, maybe in 30 years, we'll get a chance again.
Quote from: Yonkey on February 28, 2010, 09:56:42 AM
They were approved and released while Vivendi still controlled Sierra IP. Activision is a completely different company with completely different management.
Can't you say it's a KQ parody and get it out freely with changing a few names ? :-\
LEAK IT!
Seriously. Just leak the game onto the internet. It's done enough for us to play, right?
Just LEAK IT.
I was completely crushed this morning when I say the email and a lump formed in my throat. However, leaking it will only cause problems for the team and the best course of action right now is patience. I have looked around the Activision website and I am wondering why they even bought the rights, it is not their speed of a game at all!
With the rights being sold again, we can wait for someone to buy them. Bill Gates is a big gamer, why not see if he will buy it and then let it be released? If the game is not released, I would hope for the playout that was written, it would allow us to in-vision a beautiful game, each special within our own imaginations but the dialogue we have come to know and love. I would spearhead the petition however I do not have the time with school still a large time eater in my life. I am willing to sign anything or write and email, which I will do this week sometime.
To the team, I appreciate all the time and hard work you have put into this project. I hope you have greater success in your other projects and work just as hard.
THANK YOU ;)
Hey everyone,
Every so often I'll crawl out of the woodwork on this forum...may as well do so now!
Thanks so much for your support, in years past and now. We appreciate it so, so, so very much. This was a crushing thing to learn about, no two ways about it. It's a sad thing, but Activision's wishes must be complied with, as it is their IP.
The experience has been amazing, though, and seriously, we've had the best fans in the world. :)
So...what are you planning to do? are you changing names of characters...or are you trashing the project?.....Say something....Tell us
What's more disturbing to me is that the King's Quest Collection does not appear on any website owned or operated by B/A. They don't care about this franchise, they have no plans for it. It seems more and more, as I investigate, that they are doing an experiment to see how many customers they can lose in how short an amount of time. I think, if letters and petitions don't work, we should satisfy their scientific curiosity, don't you? It is a recession and it shouldn't be that hard to convince people to save their money for more worthwhile companies.
Me again. I just can't believe it. I am so devastated by this. There are so many fun people here on this forum, and I like everyone here.
That being said, I feel like this isn't the end. You guys are SO close! This can't be the end, it simply can't. Call it denial, I call it faith.
TSL FOREVER!
(Posted on: February 28, 2010, 11:49:25 AM)
Quote from: Suzie on February 28, 2010, 08:44:02 AMMy sincerest sympathies.. but a wish changes nothing.. like someone very wise on this forum always said. ;)
:'( Actually welling up here, Suzie. Well spoken.
I can't believe they did this! It's like killing all the King's Quest characters! I mean, we all know there is pretty much NO chance that Activision is gonna make a KQ game of their own, and if they won't let us continue the story, then that whole world is basically gone. Sure, we can relive past memories, but there is no future for the royal family or anyone else in that world. I wonder what Roberta Williams would have to say....
This coming from a girl who was considering buying some Activision games and is now rethinking her decision....
For those who are asking, the team
is considering all their options, and are not giving up just like that.
As fans, the best thing to do is start a petition, or write/email the company, asking them to keep the game afloat.
But remember; language is important! Activision is not going to respond positively if we slam them and call them names, demanding that they give us the rights to produce TSL.
So write to them, be gracious and tactful, and use proper grammar and spelling. (You wouldn't believe how important those last two points are in the corporate setting.)
Quote from: Haids1987 on February 28, 2010, 12:52:22 PMTSL FOREVER!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: crayauchtin on February 28, 2010, 12:43:02 PM
What's more disturbing to me is that the King's Quest Collection does not appear on any website owned or operated by B/A. They don't care about this franchise, they have no plans for it. It seems more and more, as I investigate, that they are doing an experiment to see how many customers they can lose in how short an amount of time. I think, if letters and petitions don't work, we should satisfy their scientific curiosity, don't you? It is a recession and it shouldn't be that hard to convince people to save their money for more worthwhile companies.
Unfortunately, the Blizzard part of their business is far too successful for them to rethink a few old gems would be of any use.
To all those who worked so hard on this project, thank you very much!
To all the fans who supported the project I would like to offer my thanks as well.
Like all of you I am disappointed in the turn of events. If the game will ever become a reality is beyond my control but everybody here has my gratitude. Thanks again! Good luck everybody on their current and future endeavors!
No!
No, no, no! :'( I've been looking forward to this game for years, and now this. I can't believe it. I'm glad you guys aren't giving up yet. I will definitely be writing to Activision about this.
Quote from: waltzdancing on February 28, 2010, 12:00:05 PMI have looked around the Activision website and I am wondering why they even bought the rights, it is not their speed of a game at all!
Activision bought Vivendi's game division for other reasons; the KQ IP was just something that came along with it.
Quote from: crayauchtin on February 28, 2010, 12:43:02 PMWhat's more disturbing to me is that the King's Quest Collection does not appear on any website owned or operated by B/A.
While this is true, they may still be receiving funds from the sale of the King's Quest collection on Steam and other places, and they recently released KQ4, 5, and 6 on GOG.com. So it's not as if they don't care about the IP as it
is bringing them profit.
Thank you all for your hard work and dedication. Perhaps something good will come of this yet. After all, does not every cloud have a silver lining? :)
Quote from: Enchantermon on February 28, 2010, 01:25:56 PM
Quote from: crayauchtin on February 28, 2010, 12:43:02 PMWhat's more disturbing to me is that the King's Quest Collection does not appear on any website owned or operated by B/A.
While this is true, they may still be receiving funds from the sale of the King's Quest collection on Steam and other places, and they recently released KQ4, 5, and 6 on GOG.com. So it's not as if they don't care about the IP as it is bringing them profit.
Well, then it makes even less sense to cancel TSL. It's been shown before that when a new part of a series or franchise is released, all of the parts of the franchise experience a sales boom. A fan-made KQ game would make them more money from the KQ franchise.
Quote from: Enchantermon on February 28, 2010, 01:25:56 PM
After all, does not every cloud have a silver lining? :)
Every cloak, too. ;)
Quote from: crayauchtin on February 28, 2010, 01:52:02 PMWell, then it makes even less sense to cancel TSL. It's been shown before that when a new part of a series or franchise is released, all of the parts of the franchise experience a sales boom. A fan-made KQ game would make them more money from the KQ franchise.
Possibly. Activision simply wants to protect their IP. We can't fault them for that.
Quote from: Haids1987 on February 28, 2010, 01:53:35 PMEvery cloak, too. ;)
Yes...that's what I was hinting at. ;)
Well, I tried going to the activision website, doing the contact us, but it didn't seem to want to work. There is an activision customer support site on facebook, so I went there.
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic=15415&uid=173789739310#!/ActivisionAssist
I've been following this game for years, not sure if it was from the beginning or not, but it was before the demo came out anyways! I hope this gets to see the light of day. For everyone who has worked so hard on this wonderful creation, it seems morally wrong not to let it see the light of day! Good luck to everyone at Phoenix! Thank you so much for your effort! I will still cross my fingers for TSL!
I am speechless.
Really, I have no idea what to say, this is HORRIBLE.
But I agree with haids, there has to be something that we can do. I mean, last time whis happened it worked out, didn't it?
but it needs to be done soon.
I havn't read the whole thread yet so....
edit: and what happened to the rest of the forum?
They had to remove anything that pertained to TSL, and the whole forum was dedicated to it. Activ-Blizz demanded it. :(
But Yonks said that he and Cat were going to sift through and try to save what they could.
Quote from: Haids1987 on February 28, 2010, 02:34:44 PM
They had to remove anything that pertained to TSL, and the whole forum was dedicated to it. Activ-Blizz demanded it. :(
But Yonks said that he and Cat were going to sift through and try to save what they could.
wow......
I have to say that probably much less than 50 percent of posts here WERE NOT TSL RELATED.
that is really lame.
REALLY
lame.
I still hope this is a dream.....
Ok, so.... petition?
I dunno if that will work this time. We do need to talk to activision though,
Quote from: Haids1987 on February 28, 2010, 12:52:22 PM
Quote from: Suzie on February 28, 2010, 08:44:02 AMMy sincerest sympathies.. but a wish changes nothing.. like someone very wise on this forum always said. ;)
:'( Actually welling up here, Suzie. Well spoken.
meh... it is the wish that is the seed of the decision. Without first wishing, there will be no decision.
That said: why don't we begin drafting petitions... I think we should draft a single good petition and do as was done before: get people to print it, sign it, and either scan or mail it to a single person who will send it to Activision. (New forum game: submit your ~300 word petition.)
I think it would be a good idea if in addition to the general petition, those who are so inclined could include personalized post-scripts.
This is sad news, indeed. I've been following your progress for years and have been anticipating TSL. Oh well :(
Maybe all of your hard work can be used as an inspiration to make your own adventure game in the spirit of Sierra games?
Quote from: Caroline on February 28, 2010, 03:28:36 PM
Maybe all of your hard work can be used as an inspiration to make your own adventure game in the spirit of Sierra games?
If worse comes to worse, that is a hell of a good idea. Still though, a lot of work.
Good idea delling. Too bad I'm terrible with words in general.
what really gets me is them telling the team to take forums down. They're just trying to quiet the aftermath and while they have the right to order the C&D, they dont have the right to try and shut down all conversation about it.
Quote from: zavlin on February 28, 2010, 04:18:54 PM
what really gets me is them telling the team to take forums down. They're just trying to quiet the aftermath and while they have the right to order the C&D, they dont have the right to try and shut down all conversation about it.
free speech -- exactly.
Not to mention most of this forum (if you had seen it before) was just fun, and pure fun. Being here only about a year and a half, even I have some good memories here and hate to see this happening.
But he have to change this. We really can't let them do this. I mean...
OVER 90 PERCENT COMPLETE!!!!!
That's just not right.
Awww, this is really bad news indeed :(
Not been active on the forums last few years but have been taking a peek every now and then. I know many were looking forward to this and am extemely feeling sorry for all the people who spend lots of time over the years in making this game.
Lets hope it won't be the end of it all and that they can see the fruits of their hard work.
Much love to all those part of the TSL team <3
This is just...ridiculous. I don't think I can say anything else that hasn't already been said about the game itself. I just feel horrible for the team who worked many many hours and I wish them all good luck.
As far as the forums go, how can they legally force you to take them down? Most of the activity was just fun talk about past Sierra games and forum games and random chatter. How can they say it's illegal for you to use "TSL" anyway, even if it just exists as a forum?
Quote from: PirateKingChris on February 28, 2010, 05:37:01 PM
This is just...ridiculous. I don't think I can say anything else that hasn't already been said about the game itself. I just feel horrible for the team who worked many many hours and I wish them all good luck.
As far as the forums go, how can they legally force you to take them down? Most of the activity was just fun talk about past Sierra games and forum games and random chatter. How can they say it's illegal for you to use "TSL" anyway, even if it just exists as a forum?
That is breaking apart an innocent community of people. That is really wrong. Is that even legal?
We really need to start figuring out what we can do here... I wish I could look to the past for help, but... the FORUMS ARE DOWN!
I am still a little overwhelmed and not thinking right...
Hum...
Then this means that all KQ remakes over the net will be pull off too?
If not, why? They also had previous agreements and if Activision says no free-fan...
Quote from: franzrogar on February 28, 2010, 05:46:36 PM
Hum...
Then this means that all KQ remakes over the net will be pull off too?
If not, why? They also had previous agreements and if Activision says no free-fan...
http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8394.msg271648#msg271648
read that post from erpy. He is the main guy at AGDinteractive if im not mistaken.
Maybe we should clarify--Activision asked us to remove all TSL-related material from the website. In order to comply with that in a timely fashion, it was easier to take down all of the forums right away than to sift through everything for what was and wasn't TSL-related.
I don't handle the running of the forums, so I don't know if there will be some of the forums re-appearing in time or not based on that criteria, but that's the why of it right now.
At risk of being completely wrong, the way I understand it is that Neil and Cat are sifting through the forums for topics they can recover which do not contain any copyright-infringing material. The forum removal was necessary for such an undertaking as it would surely take multiple hours to complete. If they were left up and Activision saw any copyright-infringing material being "distributed" within the forum, they would have grounds to take legal action.
It may seem drastic, but I think undershooting their compliance with the C & D would be more detrimental to the project we love than overshooting it.
Hopefully, the forums will recover in time.
All I can say is, HAIL :suffer:
Quote from: Tage7 on February 28, 2010, 05:55:20 PM
At risk of being completely wrong, the way I understand it is that Neil and Cat are sifting through the forums for topics they can recover which do not contain any copyright-infringing material.
I'm pretty sure you're right. A slow but sure process, but worthwhile. I wish we could help somehow.
I'm not sure if I can write a good petition but I am willing to be the one to whom everything is sent and I will send it all to Activision.
As for the forums -- I'm not sure if it's legal to ask that all TSL-related material be removed. It's certainly legal to ask such discussions to end, yes, but to remove them from a public forum? I'm 95% sure they can't force that. They can force the discussions to be locked and archived, I'm pretty sure about that, but as those were public discussions doesn't that make them a matter of public record, irregardless of the topic?
Quote from: crayauchtin on February 28, 2010, 06:12:53 PM
As for the forums -- I'm not sure if it's legal to ask that all TSL-related material be removed. It's certainly legal to ask such discussions to end, yes, but to remove them from a public forum? I'm 95% sure they can't force that. They can force the discussions to be locked and archived, I'm pretty sure about that, but as those were public discussions doesn't that make them a matter of public record, irregardless of the topic?
I think you are right.
Quote from: Haids1987 on February 28, 2010, 06:11:00 PM
Quote from: Tage7 on February 28, 2010, 05:55:20 PM
At risk of being completely wrong, the way I understand it is that Neil and Cat are sifting through the forums for topics they can recover which do not contain any copyright-infringing material.
I'm pretty sure you're right. A slow but sure process, but worthwhile. I wish we could help somehow.
me too.
QuoteI'm not sure if I can write a good petition but I am willing to be the one to whom everything is sent and I will send it all to Activision.
cool. I say we start getting a team together. Dunno what I Could do but I Could setup a website. (Keep in mind it probably won't be ultra professional but I can setup an ok site better than what you could get with one of those free site maker thingies.
so...
I say we go for it, what do you guys think?
Go for it! :D
Wow...
It's ridiculous that they'd shut it down after you guys have come so far.... I understand that with the change of ownership contracts and such can be null and void, but you think that they'd be more reasonable given past circumstances. It's almost as if most game developers are out to prevent the renewal of the Adventure genre, for I feel that the release of TSL would be beneficial in renewing interest with a wide audience. That would be a very good thing indeed for the copyright holder of what was THE most successful series in that genre.
Anyways, enough ranting....
I don't think I can give enough kudos to everyone involved in the development of TSL. All of you guys have put so much work into the project over the years, and all because of your love for King's Quest. You'd think with your perseverance throughout the history of development, and the constant support from fans people would realize how much returning to the tales of Graham and his family mean to all of us. But either way, TSL will mean something special to a lot of people. The quality of your work has proven that any of your future endeavors will definitely be worth the wait. Keep up the good work, you guys rock! :)
Keep in mind that any pictures taken from development that were posted inside the forum is still hosted on the tsl-game.com domain (Such as my old avatar now replaced by Winnie the Pooh). Such materials could be classified by Activision as being distributed by the owners of tsl-game.com (i.e. POStudios). That's just the most general example I can come up with. I'm sure there are much more obscure "materials" they could deem as copyright infringing that I am unaware of (me not being a law student and all).
As far as petitions go, I believe it's solely up to the fans. It's my opinion that the team has to bite their tongues to demonstrate how well natured their intentions are. If the fans are outraged, then it is solely up to them to let it be known. So if you want to petition, I wish you the best. I would start one myself, but I believe I am held under the same conditions as the POStudios team as I am one of the Beta Testers.
Quote from: Tage7 on February 28, 2010, 06:31:10 PM
As far as petitions go, I believe it's solely up to the fans. It's my opinion that the team has to bite their tongues to demonstrate how well natured their intentions are. If the fans are outraged, then it is solely up to them to let it be known. So if you want to petition, I wish you the best. I would start one myself, but I believe I am held under the same conditions as the POStudios team as I am one of the Beta Testers.
AMEN!
Oh... oh man. I am so sorry to hear this. I just dropped by and saw the news. :(
I see that Activision became a subsidiary of Viviendi after the 2007 merger, with Viviendi holding the majority of shares within Activision. Is there any way we can exploit this to have Viviendi force its subsidiary to honor its previous agreement?
Also, we should ensure that there is a single petition going. I would be more than happy to contribute my effort behind the cause to revive TSL.
Quote from: atec123 on February 28, 2010, 06:16:47 PM
I Could setup a website. (Keep in mind it probably won't be ultra professional but I can setup an ok site better than what you could get with one of those free site maker thingies.
so...
I say we go for it, what do you guys think?
In that case it's likely to be better than anything I could set up. You're hired! We are going to fight this tooth and nail.
Very sorry to hear about the C&D letter. Kudos to the team who kept this project going for almost a decade and I am thankful for the years I got to believe I was going to give King Graham another whirl. The fact that it isn't going to happen doesn't take away the joy I got from anticipating the game while the Dev team did their thing.
Andy Roark
Web Admin
http://www.sierragamers.com/
Quote from: B'rrr on February 28, 2010, 05:14:12 PM
Much love to all those part of the TSL team <3
Thanks, Rob! Love you too! ;D
Quote from: crayauchtin on February 28, 2010, 06:58:40 PM
Quote from: atec123 on February 28, 2010, 06:16:47 PM
I Could setup a website. (Keep in mind it probably won't be ultra professional but I can setup an ok site better than what you could get with one of those free site maker thingies.
so...
I say we go for it, what do you guys think?
In that case it's likely to be better than anything I could set up. You're hired! We are going to fight this tooth and nail.
Cool man. I will start working on some stuff tomorrow if I have time. Too bad this didn't start earlier, haha, Saturday I would have had enough free time to set the whole thing up.
well...
We still need someone to write the petition. Who would be good at that.....?
Whatever the team decides, I will be happy to help. I have been monitoring this for years, waiting for its release; I hate to see years of hard work go to waste because of some company policy.
This is really ridiculous on many levels.
How can they be such uptight fuckers about this? It makes no sense why they would get any gain out of stopping this project. No f***ing sense.
Plus, how do they have any legal authority to shut down the forums? Someone cite me a law that says anything about not being able to TALK about something that was INSPIRED by copryrighted material. That just seems like way too far a stretch of the law to make any sense whatsoever. That would basically mean that any fansite forums ever should be taken down. Huh? And what are they gonna do, do you really think those guys would spend any effort to take down this site if we just decided to keep it up?
Honestly, I think you should just ignore their orders. Just post the game on a torrent site somewhere, it would be pretty hard to track it back to you guys if you just use an IP blocker. It makes no sense to let all your hard work go to waste.
f*** the law, I'm a pirate, arrrr.
Kelsey told me about the news and I had to see for myself.
I honestly don't know what to say. This has been in development for so long...how can they just throw it all away? It just doesn't seem fair.
They can't possibly stop people from posting in the future about it. Fee speech and all that. It just doesn't make any sense...
I'm in shock and I just can't get the right words to come out of my mind right now. Some of the best times of my life were on these forums...
Neil, Cat, and any of the other mods, if I can help at all, shoot me an email. I'll do everything I can to help you.
This seems fitting. Whenever someone leaves forever, I say this.
With the blessing of Elune,
I send TSL off.
The friends of the deceased weep.
May your spirit live on in those who remember you.
Your memories bring joy and happiness
To all those around you.
May your journey to beyond the horizon be peaceful.
You will always be remembered.
With the blessing of Elune,
I salute you, TSL.
Our love will never end.
Our hope will never die.
Well parody isn't considered copyright infringement so you should just release the game but add a bunch of fart jokes to it.
I will help in anyway I can. I have been completely stunned today and the best way to fight a stunned brain is to come back fighting. I work for a lawyer so any information you can shoot my way I will ask him. He is a criminal defense attorney so please email me with any questions.
Let's go people, we've got a game to save!
Quote from: atec123 on February 28, 2010, 07:45:25 PM
Quote from: crayauchtin on February 28, 2010, 06:58:40 PM
Quote from: atec123 on February 28, 2010, 06:16:47 PM
I Could setup a website. (Keep in mind it probably won't be ultra professional but I can setup an ok site better than what you could get with one of those free site maker thingies.
so...
I say we go for it, what do you guys think?
In that case it's likely to be better than anything I could set up. You're hired! We are going to fight this tooth and nail.
Cool man. I will start working on some stuff tomorrow if I have time. Too bad this didn't start earlier, haha, Saturday I would have had enough free time to set the whole thing up.
I'll help in any way I can, atec. Count me in!
Hearing about them wanting to sell off the Sierra IP has this make a LOT more sense to me now (at first, it just seemed ridiculous full stop)... I would say it is mostly a matter of timing. Let's face it, would you want to buy the rights to make the next KQ game if someone else is already doing it for free? That may not be the reality of it, but to a corporation, it would seem that way. I get that.
Closing down the forums? Clearly to "silence" the whole issue, and I seriously doubt it's legal to do so. As someone said, they can tell people not to make a game with their IP, but cannot tell people not to talk about their IP.
Frankly, I doubt a petition or such will work with these people. They don't really care if a few hundred fans are angry, so long as they aren't too public about it (hence: shutting down the forums)... they only want their money-making console gamer audience who wouldn't even know what KQ was.
As much as I'd love to say "screw 'em and leak it", now they've C&D'ed you, they'll know who to come after. The time to leak and run is before a company knows what you're doing.
I still say forget wasting years on petitions and pleas that really won't work; change names and any majorly infringing art and make it your own IP. Heck, SELL it as your own IP! You deserve it after all these years of work!
Even if you still release it for free, with enough changes, they can't legally complain. Al Emmo is so very clearly "inspired" by Leisure Suit Larry meets Freddy Pharkis, and it's a commercial game. Likewise the aforte-mentioned Les Manley games. Mass Effect has striking similarities to the Babylon 5 universe, Fallout 3 is clearly "inspired" by the TV show Jeremiah, Alien Breed, Run Like Hell, and a dozen more games wouldn't exist without the Alien franchise. Anyone ever read Terry Brooks' Sword of Shanarra? Even he is shy about its similarities to Lord of the Rings. Yet all are quite legal and commercial properties.
I mentioned Teardown's Alien Assault (born of their Space Hulk dispute with the jerks of Games Workshop)... it is - IMO - a much better game now it is free of the limits of someone else's IP.
That's not to stop a fan patch that changes character names or art, though. Unofficial mods are created for games all the time, with the right knowledge and tools.
Oh, and Ken Williams should just buy Sierra's IP back, IMO... even if he does nothing with it but resell the old games via Good Old Games or something. The dude is still a legend.
Hey Cat, out of curiosity, any idea how many letters you sent last time?
(Posted on: February 28, 2010, 11:19:37 PM)
holy shnaps I've never seen so many guests. broke the record of most online with 121. If only it was because the game was released, not ended. :'(
Quote from: Banjo on February 28, 2010, 09:12:33 PM
Oh, and Ken Williams should just buy Sierra's IP back, IMO... even if he does nothing with it but resell the old games via Good Old Games or something. The dude is still a legend.
Why don't we bring this to his attention? dark-daventry gave me a link to a website that has his contact info on it. Here:
http://www.sierragamers.com/aspx/blob2/blobpage.aspx/msgid/518935
I know he has stopped by here before to chat, so clearly knows about this project. What if we designated someone to write to him? I don't know how much he'd be able to do, but at least we'd know he knows...
After 8 years you have the right, legal or not, to release this game. My opinion? They have no idea whether or not the game was actually DONE. I say finish it regardless and leak it on every torrent site you can anonymously so the fans still get to play it. They can't stop it once it's at the torrent level. Just a thought. They ask you what happened, you just say that your servers must have been hacked and a "near finished" build was stolen. It happens ;) Fans deserve this game and you deserve to see your game enjoyed.
I can see from your post that you, like many fan game developers, do not fully comprehend copyright law.
You don't have to be Activision's b**** just because they shot off a little letter at you whining about you developing a fan game based on their IP.
While the actual development of this game may be of questionable legality, having a message board discussing it most certainly is not illegal in any shape, form, or fashion. You did not have to remove any forums. Honestly, you don't even have to stop development of the game. Just go anonymous, and leak revisions to it to filesharing websites. If you do it properly, Activision won't be able to prove s***, and control over the situation shall remain firmly in your hands, regardless of how many letters they shoot out to you whining about your usage of their IP.
Now, if you are still so afraid of the Activision boogeyman, then I extend to you the following offer: I will host your complete message board if you want. I do not fear Activision. That's right, I am offering you hosting and responsibility for your message board; and as for continuing development of your game, I can certainly give you some tips on that... in a more... private fashion.
Thank about it before you continue bending over and taking it from a greedy game developer who does not care about their fans. Do you really want to give in to this evil entity?
-X
Hi guys. I just played through KQ6, heard about this game, got excited, joined the forums, and then heard about the CAD order. That's BS. Activision should just hire you guys and make this thing official. It's not like the folks at POS aren't dedicated or simply in it for the money. The world needs more games like KQ, and I am sorry to hear that they pulled the rug out from under you. I say we petition Activision to either let development proceed or they should give the people at POS jobs and proper funding so they could make this thing official.
I personally would drop some money for a new KQ game. Who's with me?
It's nice to meet you guys, even in these dark times.
The problem with the whole "leak it and run" idea is, as was already stated previously, not possible at this point. If the game was "leaked" right now, it would have clearly been from someone attached to the project and with the C&D in place, that's grounds for litigation. Remember... in court it's not so much a matter of what you KNOW as it is a matter of you can PROVE. And a "leak" could be traced back to the team, if for no other reason the team's methods when it comes to keeping a tight lid on builds and whatnot. They haven't leaked anything in eight years. If something was leaked now, it would look very odd.
And of course there's the whole conversation right here on this forum thread about "leaking". If the game was "leaked" right now, there's a half dozen posts advocating that act and there you go.
The best thing we can do right now as fans is form a petition like what was done back in 2005. Raise awareness for that petition by making contact on Facebook and Twitter and then go from there. If you want to do more, shoot some emails off to gaming websites with a link back to this thread and let those gaming websites make some articles about the whole thing. The media is as much a powerful tool as a petition.
But whatever we do as fans, the most important thing of all is to remain calm and not do anything rash. Believe me when I say that is far easier to type than it is to actually do. This has been a serious blow to the development of this game and most certainly has been a serious blow to the development team. By posting here, we are showing the development team how much we care about the sweat, blood, and tears they have all shed over the course of the last eight years. I cannot speak for the development team... but I can tell you I know your kind words are appreciated and carry just as much weight as any petition or article.
Please keep the kind words coming in and help out where you can. What will happen will happen and I have absolute faith in Yonkey, Cat, and the development team. I know they will do what is right and I am absolutely positive there is more to come.
Quote from: oberonqa on February 28, 2010, 09:57:52 PM
What will happen will happen and I have absolute faith in Yonkey, Cat, and the development team. I know they will do what is right and I am absolutely positive there is more to come.
Hear, hear. If the team can get through this once, they can do it twice.
Quote from: oberonqa on February 28, 2010, 09:57:52 PM
The problem with the whole "leak it and run" idea is, as was already stated previously, not possible at this point. If the game was "leaked" right now, it would have clearly been from someone attached to the project and with the C&D in place, that's grounds for litigation. Remember... in court it's not so much a matter of what you KNOW as it is a matter of you can PROVE. And a "leak" could be traced back to the team, if for no other reason the team's methods when it comes to keeping a tight lid on builds and whatnot. They haven't leaked anything in eight years. If something was leaked now, it would look very odd.
And of course there's the whole conversation right here on this forum thread about "leaking". If the game was "leaked" right now, there's a half dozen posts advocating that act and there you go.
The best thing we can do right now as fans is form a petition like what was done back in 2005. Raise awareness for that petition by making contact on Facebook and Twitter and then go from there. If you want to do more, shoot some emails off to gaming websites with a link back to this thread and let those gaming websites make some articles about the whole thing. The media is as much a powerful tool as a petition.
But whatever we do as fans, the most important thing of all is to remain calm and not do anything rash. Believe me when I say that is far easier to type than it is to actually do. This has been a serious blow to the development of this game and most certainly has been a serious blow to the development team. By posting here, we are showing the development team how much we care about the sweat, blood, and tears they have all shed over the course of the last eight years. I cannot speak for the development team... but I can tell you I know your kind words are appreciated and carry just as much weight as any petition or article.
Please keep the kind words coming in and help out where you can. What will happen will happen and I have absolute faith in Yonkey, Cat, and the development team. I know they will do what is right and I am absolutely positive there is more to come.
First of all, Activision will never spend the time or money taking these guys to court. It goes against their philosophy of making a buck at all costs. Suing these guys would get them nothing and it would cost them thousands of dollars. If there's one thing you can count on when it comes to Activision, it'll be that they will not lose money. Right now it's all bark and no bite, and I'd wager that it's going to stay that way. It's a lose-lose situation for Activision.
As for actually leaking the s*** and having an unbreakable defense, this too is easy.
Leak the source and assets using a trojan to a server in Russia; then use a Chinese VPN to take materials mined with trojan off the Russian server, post to Usenet using UseNetServer (UNS doesn't keep logs). Upload via SSL for good measure. Let the rest of the Internet take its course and spread it around nice and good. :) Other handy tips: have team members' routers have open Wi-Fi access, allowing additional defenses as to how it could have leaked: someone was able to access the project via open Wi-Fi.
The only thing "rash" right now is complying with a letter sent by Activision. You can send someone a letter claiming anything. That does not mean you have power.
-X
:(, like many I have been following you guys for years. I support ya guys, and will sign any petition. Not as elegant as the others; however, I believe that this storm shall pass eventually. We just have to wait it out.
Quote from: Xizer on February 28, 2010, 10:10:14 PM
Leak the source and assets using a trojan to a server in Russia; then use a Chinese VPN to take materials mined with trojan off the Russian server, post to Usenet using UseNetServer (UNS doesn't keep logs). Upload via SSL for good measure. Let the rest of the Internet take its course and spread it around nice and good. :) Other handy tips: have team members' routers have open Wi-Fi access, allowing additional defenses as to how it could have leaked: someone was able to access the project via open Wi-Fi.
LOL!
In all seriousness, as others have previously said, leaking the game is not an option for us. We aren't anonymous and we would be the ones held liable. Complying with the C&D is all the team can do right now.
The team will get criticized for doing things incorrectly no matter what they do. In the end, whether they decide to remove all IP references (which would be an amazing feat with all the voice acting, I imagine) or explore other agreement options, their actions will reflect the intentions they've had with the game from the very beginning. I've known them to be very stand-up people. To me, leaking the game seems to muddy all of the love put into this game. Also, due to this love, I highly doubt they will let the project die should it come to that point.
Quote from: Xizer on February 28, 2010, 10:10:14 PM
First of all, Activision will never spend the time or money taking these guys to court. It goes against their philosophy of making a buck at all costs. Suing these guys would get them nothing and it would cost them thousands of dollars. If there's one thing you can count on when it comes to Activision, it'll be that they will not lose money. Right now it's all bark and no bite, and I'd wager that it's going to stay that way. It's a lose-lose situation for Activision.
As for actually leaking the sh*t and having an unbreakable defense, this too is easy.
Leak the source and assets using a trojan to a server in Russia; then use a Chinese VPN to take materials mined with trojan off the Russian server, post to Usenet using UseNetServer (UNS doesn't keep logs). Upload via SSL for good measure. Let the rest of the Internet take its course and spread it around nice and good. :) Other handy tips: have team members' routers have open Wi-Fi access, allowing additional defenses as to how it could have leaked: someone was able to access the project via open Wi-Fi.
The only thing "rash" right now is complying with a letter sent by Activision. You can send someone a letter claiming anything. That does not mean you have power.
-X
Tell that to this guy... who got a hold of New Super Mario Bros Wii 6 days before it's official launch and uploaded it to a torrent site:
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/02/09/nintendo-australia-fines-nsmb-wii-uploader-1-5-million/
You can't say Activision won't pursue legal recourse... anymore than this aussie pirater thought Nintendo wouldn't find out he was responsible for being the first to upload a copy of NSMB.
Ignoring a C&D is not a trivial matter and I would strongly suggest you take a moment to review international copyright law before you continue to advocate ignoring the C&D.
As for taking the forums down, Yonkey has already stated the reason why they took the forums down was so they could comply with the C&D (which requires all materials related to the game in question to be taken down). Yonkey and Cat will be going through the forums in great detail so they can better comply with the order and then put the remaining forums back in place, free of "materials related to the game in question".
(Posted on: February 28, 2010, 09:34:03 PM)
In greater thought about my suggestion about contacting gaming websites and letting them know about the situation, I have come up with the following letter which you can copy and paste when submitting to gaming websites:
BEGIN LETTER
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Earlier today (February 28th), Activision issued a Cease and Desist order against fan developer Phoenix Online Studios, who has been hard at work on The Silver Lining, an unofficial sequel to the venerable King's Quest series.
Visitors to the game's website, located at http://www.tsl-game.com are now greeted with the following letter from the development team:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To Our Fans:
In 2005, Phoenix Online Studios received a Cease & Desist letter from Vivendi Universal, the owners of the King's Quest IP, in regards to our work on The Silver Lining. We complied with the request, and over the months that followed, we were able to work out a non-commercial fan license with Vivendi that allowed us to continue our work on the game.
We have spent a lot of time recently reworking the material of The Silver Lining into episodic releases, with the first out of a planned five episodes completed, and submitted for review, and had hoped we would be able to bring our game to you, the fans, in the Spring of 2010.
Recently, however, ownership of the Sierra IP changed hands and became the property of Activision. After talks and negotiations in the last few months between ourselves and Activision, they have reached the decision that they are not interested in granting a non-commercial license to The Silver Lining, and have asked that we cease production and take down all related materials on our website.
As before, we must and will comply with this decision, as much as we may wish we could do otherwise.
We cannot say enough how much we appreciate the support we have had over these years from our fans. Without you, we would never have gotten this far. There would be no game to develop, and no one to develop it for. You have been amazing and steadfast, and we will always remember that and appreciate it more than we can say.
Sadly, after eight years of dedicated work and even more dedicated fans, The Silver Lining project is closing down.
What the future holds for us, as individuals or a team, we cannot say. We have an amazing development team, however, filled with talented and hard-working individuals, and we hope the teamwork and rapport we have developed will not go to waste. We hope that when we do know what the future holds for us, our fans will be there to enjoy what we can give them still.
Again, thank you all so much for everything. This has been a long and crazy road, full of more twists than we could have anticipated, but more triumphs and wonderful memories than we could have ever hoped for. And for that, to all of you and to everyone on our team, we will always be grateful.
Thank You,
The Silver Lining Development Team
In compliance with Activision's request, most of our forums are coming down. However, we are keeping a few new, empty forums open so fans can stay in touch with one another and with us. Please visit: http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8394.0
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As many of you will recall, back in 2005, Phoenix Online Studios was issued a Cease and Desist by Vivendi Universal for the development of King's Quest IX. After a lengthy petition and review process, Vivendi Universal granted the developer a limited non-commercial license to develop their game, which was renamed "The Silver Lining".
However, with Activision's recent acquisition of Viviendi Universal's properties, the fate of The Silver Lining came into question yet again. Today that fate appears to be sealed. The Cease and Desist issued by Activision calls for the immediate cease in production of the game as well as taking down all related materials from the game's website. At this time, the game website has been taken down and the bulk of the game's community forums has been taken down by the development team in an attempt to comply with the order (though efforts are being made to go through the forum in greater detail to comply with the order and put back into place any parts of the forum that do not directly pertain to the game).
The Silver Lining began it's development in 2002 and despite many challenges and hurdles, was on track for a summer 2010 release.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
END LETTER
Just copy and paste this for submission to any gaming website you regularly visit (most websites these days have a "Submit News" or "Submit a Tip" link somewhere on their site).
Quote from: oberonqa on February 28, 2010, 10:34:03 PM
Tell that to this guy... who got a hold of New Super Mario Bros Wii 6 days before it's official launch and uploaded it to a torrent site:
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/02/09/nintendo-australia-fines-nsmb-wii-uploader-1-5-million/
You can't say Activision won't pursue legal recourse... anymore than this aussie pirater thought Nintendo wouldn't find out he was responsible for being the first to upload a copy of NSMB.
Ignoring a C&D is not a trivial matter and I would strongly suggest you take a moment to review international copyright law before you continue to advocate ignoring the C&D.
As for taking the forums down, Yonkey has already stated the reason why they took the forums down was so they could comply with the C&D (which requires all materials related to the game in question to be taken down). Yonkey and Cat will be going through the forums in great detail so they can better comply with the order and then put the remaining forums back in place, free of "materials related to the game in question".
Completely different situation. This guy not only leaked a full commercial game developed in full by Nintendo to an easily traceable medium (torrents? Really? You're going to be the first to leak something as big as this by... putting your IP address in a big, exposed pool instead of routing through numerous foreign proxies and posting to a more secure medium like Usenet? Okay buddy...)
Then this idiot went around on message boards and bragged about being the person who leaked it. Also, you'll note this guy got a slap on the wrist. A $1.5 million fine? Pfft, just an extra letter to toss in the trash each month. In America, you don't go to jail for being unable to pay. You just keep getting a letter begging you to pay up. Nothing happens if you don't.
Ignoring a C&D absolutely is a trivial matter as long as you take proper precautions. Anyways, I've already made my offer to host everything they think is "illegal." I've said my peace. Let's hope this team makes the right decision in the coming months after this has all settled down and comes up with a solution to avoid throwing away 8 years of work - be it of questionable legality or not.
I'd also hope this serves as a valuable lesson to future fangame developers: don't expose yourself so much unless you're actually working on a fangame based on a franchise from a good company that treats its customers right: like Valve. Activision is probably the greediest, most evil game corporation in existence right now. If you're gonna make a fangame based on one of their IPs, you better make sure your webhost is in Iran and don't divulge personal details about yourself. Unless it's Valve, you will ALWAYS get bitten in the ass when you try to work with a company.
-X
LOL! Okay, I've been watching this project since before the name change to "The Silver Lining". I occasionally just check up on the progress (or lack thereof) and read the newsletter and sometimes I'd browse the forums.
I'd been questioning the release of this game for awhile now. I've watched release date after release date pass by. So, first of all, I just want to point out that if this project held some kind of focus (i.e. released before Activision acquiring Vivendi)... this wouldn't have happened.
Secondly, I'm more in agreement with Xizer's opinion. Sure, it's easy for a fan like myself to tell you guys to grow a backbone... but seriously guys... you even took down the forums? At least draw the line somewhere on your legal rights. Need I really point out that lawyers often use unjustified "scare tactics" to provoke another party into doing what they ask?
Quote from: oberonqa on February 28, 2010, 09:57:52 PMThe problem with the whole "leak it and run" idea is, as was already stated previously, not possible at this point. If the game was "leaked" right now, it would have clearly been from someone attached to the project and with the C&D in place, that's grounds for litigation.
Come on, there's plenty of people (past and present) involved with this title. ...including the beta testers. So please explain, if some anonymous person "leaked" the current development build, how you expect anyone to associate blame in court? They cannot simply throw out a blanket accusation and fine/jail everyone associated with the project; especially a project that was legally granted a limited non-commercial license in the first place. Don't be ridiculous. The only thing that could happen is Activision
might care enough to send another threatening/angry letter and everyone would deny that they were the ones who leaked it and that's as far as it would go.
Also, as Xizer said, Activision wouldn't bother to take this to court. The latest game in the King's Quest series is
12 years old, with no new work on the horizon, and the point-and-click genre in general has been completely dismissed by the big players in the industry, such as Activision. With the exception to selling a nearly (sadly) worthless brand like Sierra... the IP holds no real value to them. I think they'd have trouble both convincing themselves and share holders that there is any sense in throwing funds at pursuing litigation on this; especially in this market. Further, they'd have a difficult time not only proving worthwhile value of the brand (i.e. the "loss" caused by releasing The Silver Lining), they would also know that they won't see a penny of it. Even if they cared enough to take this to court, even if they could prove exactly who did it, and even if they could show some worthwhile loss to revenue... the defendant would never have enough to pay judgment and simply file bankruptcy. Activision would still be left holding the bill.
Quote from: BloodShed on February 28, 2010, 10:49:33 PM
LOL! Okay, I've been watching this project since before the name change to "The Silver Lining". I occasionally just check up on the progress (or lack thereof) and read the newsletter and sometimes I'd browse the forums.
I'd been questioning the release of this game for awhile now. I've watched release date after release date pass by. So, first of all, I just want to point out that if this project held some kind of focus (i.e. released before Activision acquiring Vivendi)... this wouldn't have happened.
Secondly, I'm more in agreement with Xizer's opinion. Sure, it's easy for a fan like myself to tell you guys to grow a backbone... but seriously guys... you even took down the forums? At least draw the line somewhere on your legal rights. Need I really point out that lawyers often use unjustified "scare tactics" to provoke another party into doing what they ask?
Quote from: oberonqa on February 28, 2010, 09:57:52 PMThe problem with the whole "leak it and run" idea is, as was already stated previously, not possible at this point. If the game was "leaked" right now, it would have clearly been from someone attached to the project and with the C&D in place, that's grounds for litigation.
Come on, there's plenty of people (past and present) involved with this title. ...including the beta testers. So please explain, if some anonymous person "leaked" the current development build, how you expect anyone to associate blame in court? They cannot simply throw out a blanket accusation and fine/jail everyone associated with the project; especially a project that was legally granted a limited non-commercial license in the first place. Don't be ridiculous. The only thing that could happen is Activision might care enough to send another threatening/angry letter and everyone would deny that they were the ones who leaked it and that's as far as it would go.
Also, as Xizer said, Activision wouldn't bother to take this to court. The latest game in the King's Quest series is 12 years old, with no new work on the horizon, and the point-and-click genre in general has been completely dismissed by the big players in the industry, such as Activision. With the exception to selling a nearly (sadly) worthless brand like Sierra... the IP holds no real value to them. I think they'd have trouble both convincing themselves and share holders that there is any sense in throwing funds at pursuing litigation on this; especially in this market. Further, they'd have a difficult time not only proving worthwhile value of the brand (i.e. the "loss" caused by releasing The Silver Lining), they would also know that they won't see a penny of it. Even if they cared enough to take this to court, even if they could prove exactly who did it, and even if they could show some worthwhile loss to revenue... the defendant would never have enough to pay judgment and simply file bankruptcy. Activision would still be left holding the bill.
Allow me to illustrate Activision's position here, since they are the current owner of the IP in question.
What is Intellectual Property
Intellectual property (IP) is a term referring to a number of distinct types of legal monopolies over creations of the mind, both artistic and commercial, and the corresponding fields of law. Under intellectual property law, owners are granted certain exclusive rights to a variety of intangible assets, such as musical, literary, and artistic works; discoveries and inventions; and words, phrases, symbols, and designs. Common types of intellectual property include copyrights, trademarks, patents, industrial design rights and trade secrets in some jurisdictions.
Although many of the legal principles governing intellectual property have evolved over centuries, it was not until the 19th century that the term intellectual property began to be used, and not until the late 20th century that it became commonplace in the United States.
The British Statute of Anne 1710 and the Statute of Monopolies 1623 are now seen as the origin of copyright and patent law respectively.
What is Copyright?
Copyright is the set of exclusive rights granted to the author or creator of an original work, including the right to copy, distribute and adapt the work. Copyright lasts for a certain time period after which the work is said to enter the public domain. Copyright applies to a wide range of works that are substantive and fixed in a medium. Some jurisdictions also recognize "moral rights" of the creator of a work, such as the right to be credited for the work. Copyright is described under the umbrella term intellectual property along with patents and trademarks.
The Statute of Anne 1709, full title "An Act for the Encouragement of Learning, by vesting the Copies of Printed Books in the Authors or purchasers of such Copies, during the Times therein mentioned", is now seen as the origin of copyright law.
Copyright has been internationally standardized, lasting between fifty and one hundred years from the author's death, or a shorter period for anonymous or corporate authorship. Generally, copyright is enforced as a civil matter, though some jurisdictions do apply criminal sanctions.
What are the exclusive rights granted to Copyright Holders?
Copyright initially only granted the exclusive right to copy a book, allowing anybody to use the book to, for example, make a translation, adaptation or public performance. At the time print on paper was the only format in which most text based copyrighted works were distributed. Therefore, while the language of book contracts was typically very broad, the only exclusive rights that had any significant economic value were rights to distribute the work in print.
The exclusive rights granted by copyright law to copyright owners have been gradually expanded over time and now uses of the work such as dramatization, translations, and derivative works such as adaptations and transformations, fall within the scope of copyright.
With a few exceptions, the exclusive rights granted by copyright are strictly territorial in scope, as they are granted by copyright laws in different countries. Bilateral and multilateral treaties establish minimum exclusive rights in member states, meaning that there is some uniformity across Berne Convention member states.
The print on paper format means that content is affixed onto paper and the content can't easily or conveniently manipulated by the user. Duplication of printed works is time-consuming and generally produces a copy that is of lower quality. Developments in technology have created new formats, in addition to paper, and new means of distribution. Particularly digital formats distributed over computer networks have separated the content from its means of delivery. Users of content are now able to exercise many of the exclusive rights granted to copyright owners, such as reproduction, distribution and adaptation.
What can be Copyrighted?
The type of works which are subject to copyright has been expanded over time. Initially only covering books, copyright law was revised in the 19th century to include maps, charts, engravings, prints, musical compositions, dramatic works, photographs, paintings, drawings and sculptures. In the 20th century copyright was expanded to cover motion pictures, computer programs, sound recordings, dance and architectural works.
However, copyright does not protect ideas, only their expression. In the Anglo-American law tradition the idea-expression dichotomy is a legal concept which explains the appropriate function of copyright laws, which are generally designed to protect the fixed expression or manifestation of an idea rather than the fundamental idea itself.
Ok so what does this all mean in regards to The Silver Lining? It means Phoenix Online Studios (the development team) does not have the legal right to develop the game. They are not the owners of the IP... nor are they the owners of the copyright. The only way they can develop The Silver Lining is with the express permission of the copyright and IP owner (which is Activision at this point).
Since Copyright and IP law covers artistic work (which is what a game is), it is illegal for any individual or group of individuals to create a work based on something they do not own the rights. In a lot of cases, it is possible to get permission from the copyright/IP owner to make a derivative work (which is what happened back in 2005 when POS was granted a limited non-commercial license), but that is no longer the case. Hence the C&D.
As for the argument about leaking the game... the same forensic analysis tools used to catch that aussie pirate can be applied to anything done on the internet. Yes there are measures to circumvent those tools... such as IP spoofing and proxys, but that does not make you anonymous. Every single communication between your computer and your ISP is logged. So even if you're utilizing an IP spoofer to send information to a proxy server in Timbuktu which is then routed to a proxy server in Bangladesh which is then routed to a secure connection in Russia which does not keep logs, the initial connection between your computer and your ISP is logged. You can't dismiss that. Unless you have a contact inside of the ISP or a way to access the ISP's logs, that log is like a giant Eye in the Sky monitoring you. Given enough time and enough resources, a spoofed IP address routed through proxy servers can eventually be traced back to the originating IP address.
And the suggestion of using an open WiFi connection is ludicrous in the extreme and shows a certain degree of desperation that should be alarming to anyone who is willing to recommend such a course of action.
It has been said that leaking the game would be of "questionable legality". That should be the end of the conversation right there. If a course of action is considered legally questionable, then perhaps the course of action shouldn't be considered.
And even if your right... a bankruptcy sits with you for years (10 years in the United States I believe). Are you seriously suggesting the development team take the chance of possibly tarnishing their credit records for up to 10 years just so you can beat "The Man" at his own game?
Talk about selfish and short-sighted...
QuoteAs for the argument about leaking the game... the same forensic analysis tools used to catch that aussie pirate can be applied to anything done on the internet. Yes there are measures to circumvent those tools... such as IP spoofing and proxys, but that does not make you anonymous. Every single communication between your computer and your ISP is logged. So even if you're utilizing an IP spoofer to send information to a proxy server in Timbuktu which is then routed to a proxy server in Bangladesh which is then routed to a secure connection in Russia which does not keep logs, the initial connection between your computer and your ISP is logged. You can't dismiss that. Unless you have a contact inside of the ISP or a way to access the ISP's logs, that log is like a giant Eye in the Sky monitoring you. Given enough time and enough resources, a spoofed IP address routed through proxy servers can eventually be traced back to the originating IP address.
And the suggestion of using an open WiFi connection is ludicrous in the extreme and shows a certain degree of desperation that should be alarming to anyone who is willing to recommend such a course of action.
It has been said that leaking the game would be of "questionable legality". That should be the end of the conversation right there. If a course of action is considered legally questionable, then perhaps the course of action shouldn't be considered.
And even if your right... a bankruptcy sits with you for years (10 years in the United States I believe). Are you seriously suggesting the development team take the chance of possibly tarnishing their credit records for up to 10 years just so you can beat "The Man" at his own game?
Talk about selfish and short-sighted...
It's called SSL encryption buddy. A bunch of packets sent to an IP address somewhere doesn't prove anything. Your ISP couldn't see what you uploaded. Besides, there's no way Activision could get an ISP's logs anyway. They'd have to have evidence of infringement and get a court order AFTER identifying an IP address which would have to be retrieved from some server in Russia assuming said server kept logs of what IP addresses connect to it. This would all be necessary before they could even get an ISP to turn over their USELESS logs of SSL encrypted packets. Two words: Completely. Untraceable. I don't think you uunderstand how the Internet works if you can't grasp this concept. Besides, worried about your ISP knowing what you're doing? Great! Trot out the laptop, head downtown, and hit up an open Wi-Fi before you send your encrypted s***. Let's see them figure out who that belongs to. ;)
Quote from: Xizer on February 28, 2010, 11:29:18 PM
QuoteAs for the argument about leaking the game... the same forensic analysis tools used to catch that aussie pirate can be applied to anything done on the internet. Yes there are measures to circumvent those tools... such as IP spoofing and proxys, but that does not make you anonymous. Every single communication between your computer and your ISP is logged. So even if you're utilizing an IP spoofer to send information to a proxy server in Timbuktu which is then routed to a proxy server in Bangladesh which is then routed to a secure connection in Russia which does not keep logs, the initial connection between your computer and your ISP is logged. You can't dismiss that. Unless you have a contact inside of the ISP or a way to access the ISP's logs, that log is like a giant Eye in the Sky monitoring you. Given enough time and enough resources, a spoofed IP address routed through proxy servers can eventually be traced back to the originating IP address.
And the suggestion of using an open WiFi connection is ludicrous in the extreme and shows a certain degree of desperation that should be alarming to anyone who is willing to recommend such a course of action.
It has been said that leaking the game would be of "questionable legality". That should be the end of the conversation right there. If a course of action is considered legally questionable, then perhaps the course of action shouldn't be considered.
And even if your right... a bankruptcy sits with you for years (10 years in the United States I believe). Are you seriously suggesting the development team take the chance of possibly tarnishing their credit records for up to 10 years just so you can beat "The Man" at his own game?
Talk about selfish and short-sighted...
It's called SSL encryption buddy. A bunch of packets sent to an IP address somewhere doesn't prove anything. Your ISP couldn't see what you uploaded. Besides, there's no way Activision could get an ISP's logs anyway. They'd have to have evidence of infringement and get a court order AFTER identifying an IP address which would have to be retrieved from some server in Russia assuming said server kept logs of what IP addresses connect to it. This would all be necessary before they could even get an ISP to turn over their USELESS logs of SSL encrypted packets. Two words: Completely. Untraceable. I don't think you uunderstand how the Internet works if you can't grasp this concept. Besides, worried about your ISP knowing what you're doing? Great! Trot out the laptop, head downtown, and hit up an open Wi-Fi before you send your encrypted sh*t. Let's see them figure out who that belongs to. ;)
A search warrent does not require a copy of the data transmitted... only a log of the originating IP address and the destination IP address. Since it wouldn't be too terribly out of the question for Activision to find out where the development team lives, they could file a civil suit against a member of the development team (in this case, let's say the lead programmer). Once the civil suit has been initiated, the plaintiff (Activision) could then file a motion to obtain a copy of the lead programmers ISP logs as a part of the discovery phase of the suit. They could then cross-reference those logs to identify other team members IP addresses and IP addresses from torrent sites (torrent trackers also keep logs I might add).
SSL Encryption also requires a handshake certification server-side. You can't just click a button on your browser and put it in SSL mode.
Going downtown to the public library is also sketchy at best... because then your using government property (in this case, the libraries internet access) to commit a crime. Oh yes indeed... now instead of facing a civil suit, the person in question also gets slapped with a criminal suit.
Your quest to beat "The Man" is most interesting... but there are so many holes in your logic it's astounding...
And it's also a moot point. The development team is comprised of people who possess a high degree of moral integrity and I know they would not stoop to legally questionable activity. As for the beta testers... they were all hand picked and signed non-disclosure agreements before they began their duties as beta testers. If one of them breeched that agreement by leaking the game, they would be exposing themselves to a breech-of-contract suit by POS.
I don't see that happening...
the pirate bay and AIM chat rooms?
QuoteA search warrent does not require a copy of the data transmitted... only a log of the originating IP address and the destination IP address. Since it wouldn't be too terribly out of the question for Activision to find out where the development team lives, they could file a civil suit against a member of the development team (in this case, let's say the lead programmer). Once the civil suit has been initiated, the plaintiff (Activision) could then file a motion to obtain a copy of the lead programmers ISP logs as a part of the discovery phase of the suit. They could then cross-reference those logs to identify other team members IP addresses and IP addresses from torrent sites (torrent trackers also keep logs I might add).
This once again displays such an incompetence at understanding how the Internet works. First of all my suggestion for a fool-proof way of leaking the material onto the Internet to be spread around doesn't involve torrents at all, and secondly, it's beyond hilarious that you think The Pirate Bay is going to hand over logs to any authorities.
But anyways, now that we've firmly established that it would be a piece of cake to leak this sh*t and avoid anyone tracking you down (well, I have, anyway. You've displayed a gross misunderstanding of how the Internet works... but whatever. Anyone who knows what they're talking about and reads my posts will think to themselves "welp, that guy knows what he's talking about." Then they're going to read posts like yours and go "Ugh... *facepalm*... why does this Xizer guy even try arguing with these people? lol), this begs another question: since when does obeying laws created by corrupt old white guys sitting around talking about how they can best exploit the underclasses and remain fatcats make you a person of higher moral integrity? And how do you determine whose laws are more worthy of following than others?
Like, do you agree with every law ever passed in the world? Do you think people who obey Uganda's upcoming anti-gay law which says citizens must turn in people they suspect of being homosexuals to the state for them to face execution are of a higher moral integrity than those who break the law and protect their fellow citizens from an evil government?
Saying that someone who obeys laws has a higher moral integrity than someone who thinks for themselves and selectively ignores sh*tty laws is absurd... ::)
Oberonqa has a petition up. Everyone needs to go sign it!
Quote from: Haids1987 on March 01, 2010, 12:33:58 AM
Oberonqa has a petition up. Everyone needs to go sign it!
http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/savetsl/
Gotta go to bed now. Good luck, all, with your individual endeavors in saving this incredible game. Until tomorrow...
Quote from: Xizer on March 01, 2010, 12:15:12 AMthis begs another question: since when does obeying laws created by corrupt old white guys sitting around talking about how they can best exploit the underclasses and remain fatcats make you a person of higher moral integrity? And how do you determine whose laws are more worthy of following than others?
Like, do you agree with every law ever passed in the world? Do you think people who obey Uganda's upcoming anti-gay law which says citizens must turn in people they suspect of being homosexuals to the state for them to face execution are of a higher moral integrity than those who break the law and protect their fellow citizens from an evil government?
Saying that someone who obeys laws has a higher moral integrity than someone who thinks for themselves and selectively ignores sh*tty laws is absurd... ::)
Being someone who previously spoke about moral integrity, I'll offer a point of view.
Whether a law is correct or not is all subject to interpretation. For example, I interpret anti-gay laws as incorrect. However, I interpret laws that protect intellectual property as correct. I interpret the lack of laws allowing the execution of rapists as incorrect. I interpret the laws enforcing safe driving as correct.
As such, you and I may never reach an agreement upon whether the law protecting intellectual property is correct or not.
If I was the IP holder of the King's Quest franchise, I would have continued to uphold the non-commercial license granted to the POStudios team since they have no plans of
selling it. On the other hand, if they were trying to make a profit off of my game, I certainly would revoke the license.
While Activision had the
right to revoke the license, it's common sympathy that doing so on a non-profit project is a jerk move.
Getting back on topic, I would certainly say anyone who abides by the laws I agree with have higher moral integrity. You might say otherwise. There is no set-in-stone proof of moral integrity. Morality is all opinion.
So Blizzard/Activision now gets their jollies by killing off independent games? Fat chance this hardcore gamer will pick up any more titles produced by that hypocritical institution..
I am more than happy to vote with my wallet..
"The Silver Lining" aka KQIX was created as a work of love and devotion by a wonderful group of talented individuals. They worked for many years and through great adversity to very nearly release a new installment of a game that is a legend in the realm of computer gaming.
This talk of underhanded sneaking around to shove it into websites of ill repute does not fit with the individuals at Phoenix Online. If they release a game, I think they would want to present it with pride and share their accomplishment with everyone interested. I'm sure they would be modest, but quietly enjoy receiving all the respect due to them.
-Note to Xizer troll - your point is made, you are a thief and a cheat without morals. Your arguments are shallow and self serving. All you want is a free game and a theater to brag in on how you can upload a file with some anonymity. If someone else gets sued it's not your problem. By the way ... comparing human rights issues (gay rights in Uganda) to a cease and desist letter over a legally owned IP is just stupid.
I don't see why you are interested in a game that actually is based on Honour and Decency and generalized Goodness.
My best wishes and support to the Phoenix Online team.
f*** you buddy. Calling my tactics thievery and underhanded is beyond bullshit.
Doing things against Activision's wishes will always be the righteous path. It is a godawful company that deserves to be taken down in anyway possible, up there with Goldman Sachs and Blackwater/Xe.
I view my behavior as a noble resistance movement, and I have countless millions on my side. You, on the other hand, only have the corporate lap dogs that continue to exploit the third world on your corrupt side.
Also, because your dumb ass cannot read... I have offered to host the materials myself as well as help leak it so... putting myself in the line of fire doesn't exactly seem self-serving to me.
I think I am going to boycott <a href="http://www.activision.com/index.html">Activision</a> games and suggest my friends do so too If they don't give you back you rights to make this game. I think we deserve to play the game.
I am sorry to hear that you cant make the game anymore. I am a programmer and know what goes into making a game D:
I have to agree that talking about leaking the game is ridiculous at this point. First of all, petitions and letter-writing campaigns are a) perfectly legal, b) have worked countless times in the past, and c) can spread beyond the few hundred fans on these forums with an incredible ease. If that seems to fail, a boycott could be begun -- another action which could easily be spread as few people will like supporting a corporation that is so greedy it doesn't listen to petitions. Furthermore, creating negative press for Activision is going to make them worry as they've had quite enough of that lately (between lawsuits and foolish comments made about console gaming, the last thing they need is their fans in an uproar and having that publicized.) There are many options open to us still, is breaking laws and hoping for the best really the method you want to use? If so, it's possible you're not actually here to help.
I will say, however, I did a little bit of digging and so far, I've found no legal support for Activision's demands that the forums be removed. In fact, it seems as though they have violated OUR legal rights asking that such a thing be done, and we could probably engage them in legal action for doing so. (Granted, this was only a little bit of digging, so I could still be wrong.)
Anyways, the primary reason for my posting is this: Oberonqa's online petition is written superbly -- the problem, however, is that online petitions do not hold as much sway as an offline one. I would like to propose that we use the writing of Oberonqa's petition (and this of course requires his permission) and send it out the way that the 2005 petition was handled. I think that a large box of signed petitions that is snail mailed to their office is likely to make a larger impact.
If you're serious about saving this project...there are ways. It's actually possible to comply with takedown notices while still working on a project, and there are many ways of hosting pages on the Internet such that their source is literally untraceable, and hosting things in way such that the law can't touch you.
Put it this way: people who run scam sites, phishing sites, carding forums and child pornography groups can do so for years, with major law enforcement agencies after them, yet relatively ittle incident. It's not as hard as you might think - the biggest challenge by far is for people actually trying to make a profit from their "operations" in such circumstances. The idea that you need to be a hacker or have a botnet to host something securely is a myth, plain and simple.
But the real question isn't feasibility, it's whether you actually want to continue this project or not. The last team I contacted who were in this position weren't interested, and seemed to have made the whole thing up as a cover-up for not being able to finish their (ludicrously over-ambitious) project, and from what I've heard from people, this is apparently not an uncommon occurence. Sorry if I sound like a cynic, but the person who mentioned this earlier in the thread was not lying. =/
Whatever your decision, at the very least list your C&D and circumstances on chillingeffects.org, especially if you're going to fight this claim in court. The EFF specializes in giving advice (including legal advice) to people who have been on the recieving end of copyright and other censorship laws (and, unofficially, developing methods for circumvention thereof ;) ).
Why this renunciation attitude?
There are at least a bunch of options for you developers to follow:
1rst: arrange some meetings with Activision boards. I mean, I know it'd be quite difficult to rise up to someone important but that's not an excuse for you not to try it. You worked your free time on this project, only to leave like this, in silence?
2nd: try to bargain a commercial licence with Activision. Since the first episode is actually done, the only cost, for them, would be the distribution online: they could try charging a small fee for the episode, and see if people would buy it. I don't think they're so stupid. (look at people like TellTale, they're bulding an empire only with pay-per-download games, split in episodes, and now they can afford Monkey Island licence!))
3rd: I know this might sound a little unhortodox, but....have you developers thought about changing a bit the game structure? People /location names, altering a bit the storyline not to risk copyright infringement, send it to activision for some kind of check, and then relase it as a different, original game? It'd be a good lot of work, but it might just be worth. Fan's are waiting for this since ages....
Quote from: crayauchtin on March 01, 2010, 01:21:01 AM
I have to agree that talking about leaking the game is ridiculous at this point. First of all, petitions and letter-writing campaigns are a) perfectly legal, b) have worked countless times in the past, and c) can spread beyond the few hundred fans on these forums with an incredible ease. If that seems to fail, a boycott could be begun -- another action which could easily be spread as few people will like supporting a corporation that is so greedy it doesn't listen to petitions. Furthermore, creating negative press for Activision is going to make them worry as they've had quite enough of that lately (between lawsuits and foolish comments made about console gaming, the last thing they need is their fans in an uproar and having that publicized.) There are many options open to us still, is breaking laws and hoping for the best really the method you want to use? If so, it's possible you're not actually here to help.
I will say, however, I did a little bit of digging and so far, I've found no legal support for Activision's demands that the forums be removed. In fact, it seems as though they have violated OUR legal rights asking that such a thing be done, and we could probably engage them in legal action for doing so. (Granted, this was only a little bit of digging, so I could still be wrong.)
Anyways, the primary reason for my posting is this: Oberonqa's online petition is written superbly -- the problem, however, is that online petitions do not hold as much sway as an offline one. I would like to propose that we use the writing of Oberonqa's petition (and this of course requires his permission) and send it out the way that the 2005 petition was handled. I think that a large box of signed petitions that is snail mailed to their office is likely to make a larger impact.
I would be happy to discuss options on doing an offline petition as well as an online petition.... shoot me a PM and we can discuss the options.
Quote from: Animan on March 01, 2010, 12:52:45 AMyour point is made, you are a thief and a cheat without morals.
Linus Torvalds once said "if you need to ask a lawyer whether what you do is right, then you are morally corrupt". You, sir, are a fool. your reasoning is that of a young old child - someone who has yet to develop the ability to conceptualize right and wrong as separate from the rules that surround them.
Your reasoning is that "law X says that anyone who breaks it is a thief, and you broke law X, therefore you are a thief", but your deep lack of understanding of morality shows through with your failure to consider in what way "law X" is being broken, and in what way that compares (or in this case, cearly does NOT) with the way being a thief is morally wrong.
The fact is that this law is being used wrongly, in a way that is completely out of tune with the concept of intellectual property and copyright. And, as such, I see no moral issue in breaking it, if that is feasible (and on the Internet, it is indeed easily feasible).
Reminder to you people that this is ACTIVISION we're talking about. This is not a company that gives a s*** what people think or listens to what its customers actually say. They are a magnet for bad press, and they do not care. One bit. May I remind you that:
Quote
http://kotaku.com/5482221/activision-terminates-fan+made-kings-quest-extension
After talks and negotiations in the last few months between ourselves and Activision, they have reached the decision that they are not interested in granting a non-commercial license to The Silver Lining, and have asked that we cease production and take down all related materials on our website
THEY'VE ALREADY BEEN TALKING TO ACTIVISION FOR MONTHS. Your little Internet petition isn't going to change anything. Activision doesn't give a f*** what you think.
The only option at this point is to give Activision the finger and leak that s*** or let 8 years of work go down the drain.
I would like to see a leak, but I wish to have it wait a few weeks, to see how things turn out.
If all ends up being hopeless, I would like to see an immediate leak.
For the record, I'm not talking about leaking it onto some seedy torrent site, I mean continuing this project as it currently exists, with a wesite and community.
Let me just say that although leaking is the easiest solution to a truly unfair situation, it does not make it the best solution. Choosing to explore more agreeable avenues is not the same as wimping out as human beings or abandoning the project as developers.
I also believe discussing its feasibility and morality is futile. I will, however, gladly spend my time here discussing technology and ethics; so feel free to continue the discussion.
Xizer:
The only option? Really? Aside from an online petition, there's been about four other suggestions of other courses of actions other than leaking -- offline petition, letter-writing campaign, boycotting Activision, and tweaking it to make it an original IP. Seems like you're kind of jumping the gun.
(And while you may scoff at that idea, as someone who didn't start posting today I can assure you that a large number of the people in this community all have WoW accounts... with many WoW-playing friends... and all of us might just suddenly find, I dunno, Everquest maybe just as exciting. As Activision *does* care about the almighty dollar, that might ring a few alarm bells.)
Aside from that, the TSL team has already said they will not be leaking it. So, basically, we get it. You want to see it leaked. Thanks for the input.
Quote from: Anon on March 01, 2010, 01:50:53 AM
The fact is that this law is being used wrongly, in a way that is completely out of tune with the concept of intellectual property and copyright. And, as such, I see no moral issue in breaking it, if that is feasible (and on the Internet, it is indeed easily feasible).
Perhaps you can explain how copyright and intellectual property law are being used wrongly and in a way that is completely out of tune with the concept of intellectual property and copyright?
Here are the facts about The Silver Lining:
1) It is based on characters from the King's Quest series.
2) It takes place in locations from the King's Quest series (most notably King's Quest VI).
3) It is a completely new story taking place at some unspecified time after the events of King's Quest VII but before King's Quest: Mask of Eternity.
These 3 facts are undisputable and if you care to dispute that, then I fear it might be a waste of time continuing this discussion because these facts are well known.
Now then... that out of the way... time for some questions:
A) Did Phoenix Online Studios create any of the branded King's Quest games?
B) Are the copyrights for the characters and locations in the King's Quest games owned by Phoenix Online Studios?
C) Is Phoenix Online Studios the current Intellectual Property owner of the King's Quest franchise?
The answer to these questions is also equally obvious. Phoenix Online Studios did not create any of the branded King's Quest titles. Nor does Phoenix Online Studios own any copyright on any element of a King's Quest title. Nor do they own the Intellectual Property known collectively as King's Quest.
At what point is copyright and intellectual property law being used wrongly? I'm not playing devil's advocate here... but you have to understand Phoenix Online Studios have no rights where copyright and intellectual property are concerned. There is no way around that. And if The Silver Lining is ever going to see the light of day
legally... it's going to be with the consent of the copyright and intellectual property owner... which is Activision.
And I'm not going to continue arguing semantics with an obvious troll (Xizer). All I see out of Xizer (and I'm starting to suspect his sock-puppets) is inflammatory drivel that is designed to promote self-gratification.
If you don't agree with the laws of the land, that is your right as a human being (depending, of course, on where you live)... but society as a whole does not subscribe to the same credo. A mass murderer may feel that it is perfectly OK to murder people because people are just animals... but that doesn't make it OK. A software pirater may feel it's OK to pirate commercial software because he/she feels companies charge too much for inferior products... but that doesn't make it OK. And likewise... just because you feel Activision is just a magnet for bad press and therefore is not worthy of equal representation under the law.... doesn't mean it's OK to disregard their wishes.
Now then.... if you cannot abide by the development teams wishes to comply with the C&D while they pursue their options... that's your choice. But I'm telling you right now the game will not be leaked. They will release the game with Activision's blessings... or they won't release it at all. If you can't accept that, then I'm sorry. But demanding they leak the game like a petulant child who wants to get even with his/her dead beat drunk father by disobeying him and going out with friends isn't going to save the child from getting a whooping when he/she gets home.
Well, first of all, I'm not even going to bother responding to the dipshit troll directly above me... his wall of words spewed forth from an illogical mind is not worthy of further comment.
As for my response to people who are not complete douchebags like oberonqa...
Quote from: crayauchtin on March 01, 2010, 02:13:56 AM
Xizer:
The only option? Really? Aside from an online petition, there's been about four other suggestions of other courses of actions other than leaking -- offline petition, letter-writing campaign, boycotting Activision, and tweaking it to make it an original IP.
Three out of four of these options involve Activision caring - something which may be the case in an alternate reality, but certainly not in this one.
So if they're not going to leak it - they're going to have to make it an original IP - which is going to damage the project. A large part of its appeal is that it is an unofficial sequel.
We will see what happens in a few weeks after your "petition" turns out fruitless... until then, peace out my niggas.
Ok dont get me wrong here, but maybe you all look at the issue from a different angle. First of all Kings Quest itself while being protected by IP laws is by far not the only game in town, it is almost entirely based on figures by now in plublic domain, the settings the substories etc... Thats all based upon it. So why not simply change everything namewise, then you should be probably safe. Insgead of Daventry make it something along the lines of country behind the seven hills. Instead of Princess Rosella, give here another name....
It is not like the entire setting is so unique that it still falls under copyright law just the names and graphics of the original kinqs quest are. (and even the graphics are arguable if you push them into the modern age, because castles kings etc... have been done for hundreds of years)
While you may think that Activision is not going to respond well to fan-input and that they are a magnet for bad press (they are), very little of that press has been brought on by the fans being in an uproar. There is a BIG difference between bad press brought on by rival companies and bad press brought on by the consumers -- and while the big shots within Activision may not care, their stockholders certainly will.
Again, the almighty dollar holds a LOT of sway. We are a portion of the consumers of the gaming industry, and many of us know others who also are Activision consumers. Creating a big enough dent in their profits to make them notice and make them care may be a challenge -- but it's called a challenge because it's not impossible.
You want to see an evil corporation crumble? Leaking a game that wouldn't make them money anyways will *not* do that.
Sorry to hear you guys got shut down again.
Quote from: Xizer on March 01, 2010, 12:15:12 AM
Anyone who knows what they're talking about and reads my posts will think to themselves "welp, that guy knows what he's talking about." Then they're going to read posts like yours and go "Ugh... *facepalm*... why does this Xizer guy even try arguing with these people? lol),
It's really the other way around. :suffer:
Quote from: Werner on March 01, 2010, 02:27:25 AM
Ok dont get me wrong here, but maybe you all look at the issue from a different angle. First of all Kings Quest itself while being protected by IP laws is by far not the only game in town, it is almost entirely based on figures by now in plublic domain, the settings the substories etc... Thats all based upon it. So why not simply change everything namewise, then you should be probably safe. Insgead of Daventry make it something along the lines of country behind the seven hills. Instead of Princess Rosella, give here another name....
It is not like the entire setting is so unique that it still falls under copyright law just the names and graphics of the original kinqs quest are. (and even the graphics are arguable if you push them into the modern age, because castles kings etc... have been done for hundreds of years)
I personally think changing the IP-related names and locations is not so easy in TSL's case. The reason being: voice acting. There's no telling how many dialogues contain IP-related proper nouns. All of the voice actors would need to be recontacted to revoice several dialogues. Either that or completely new voice actors would need to be casted. In the last case, several dialogues would have to be scrapped. It's just a difficult route to take in my opinion.
In either case, I am waiting to see where the team goes from here and hope for any good news--whether from the team or elsewhere. I highly doubt the project is completely dead. If it is, I will be right there with you guys completely depressed. :'(
I honestly didn't know of this project until I saw the Cease and Desist. I was a very big fan of all the Quest series in the day though including Kings Quest which was fantastic.
I've not read through all the comments but may I say that, and I am going to rant, this has just added ANOTHER reason for me to make a point of never buying a game developed my Activision in future.
I've been recently screwed by Activision on their "free to play spend only if you want" game Battlefield Heroes. I won't go into the details but there were/are a LOT of angry fans.
As far as I'm concerned I would rather eat dirt and gravel for a week rather than pay another cent to Activision for anything I don't care how good the game is.
I'd say it's probably good that you won't be associated to them. Any chance of releasing your title under another name?
This is the first time that I hear about this project and as a old adventure game fan, it´s really sad. >:( I hope you find another way to release that game and for the future long waited Diablo 3 and every other Activision-related game, will never get my dollars.
Ps. Keep your heads up and continue programming your game projects!
Best regards,
-XTrem
Just change the name.
"Thy Quest of Kings"
"Behold thy Quest"
"Kingship"
"Monarchy Quest"
or approach another studio with a similar trademark, they could accept it, it could be a bit of a coup for them.
Quote from: oberonqa on March 01, 2010, 02:17:45 AMPerhaps you can explain how copyright and intellectual property law are being used wrongly and in a way that is completely out of tune with the concept of intellectual property and copyright?
Why does copyright exist? Why were these laws even created? There are basically two main reasons for that, which are to ensure that authors are able to make a profit from their hard work, and to prevent others from making a profit from creations that are not theirs (and subsequenty denying that profit to the real author).
That is the spirit of copyright law - to give value to an otherwise abstract "property", and protect its authors of a work from financial harm. I don't see how this project was in any way causing them financial harm, hence this takedown notice is not in the spirit of intellectual property law.
Quote from: oberonqa on March 01, 2010, 02:17:45 AMHere are the facts about The Silver Lining:
(...)
Not disputing that.
Quote from: oberonqa on March 01, 2010, 02:17:45 AMNow then... that out of the way... time for some questions:
A) Did Phoenix Online Studios create any of the branded King's Quest games?
B) Are the copyrights for the characters and locations in the King's Quest games owned by Phoenix Online Studios?
C) Is Phoenix Online Studios the current Intellectual Property owner of the King's Quest franchise?
The answer to these questions is also equally obvious. Phoenix Online Studios did not create any of the branded King's Quest titles. Nor does Phoenix Online Studios own any copyright on any element of a King's Quest title. Nor do they own the Intellectual Property known collectively as King's Quest.
I won't dispute that either. But does it matter? If they are not harming the profits of the current owner or profiting from their work, why should it matter?
Quote from: oberonqa on March 01, 2010, 02:17:45 AMAt what point is copyright and intellectual property law being used wrongly? I'm not playing devil's advocate here... but you have to understand Phoenix Online Studios have no rights where copyright and intellectual property are concerned. There is no way around that.
Again you seem to be confusing morality with law. Copyright law exists to ensure content creators can make a profit from their work and to prevent people from making a profit from someone else's work, and to allow the creator. This project was in no way in conflict with either of those aims.
Quote from: oberonqa on March 01, 2010, 02:17:45 AMIf you don't agree with the laws of the land, that is your right as a human being (depending, of course, on where you live)... but society as a whole does not subscribe to the same credo.
Curious that you should say that. I'm actually confident that that if you showed this forum thread/news article to random people in the street, the vast majority would be in agreement with me.
Quote from: oberonqa on March 01, 2010, 02:17:45 AMA mass murderer may feel that it is perfectly OK to murder people because people are just animals... but that doesn't make it OK.
I agree that it's not OK, but not with your reasoning for why it's not okay. Your implied reasoning is that murder is wrong "because it's the law"; does that mean that murder would be right is it WASN'T against the law? Anyone with a sense of morality would disagree - murder is wrong for fundemental reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that "it's the law". Killing someone is morally wrong no matter what the law says, and likeway, making a non-commercial fan project like this is NOT morally wrong, no matter what the law says.
Quote from: oberonqa on March 01, 2010, 02:17:45 AMA software pirater may feel it's OK to pirate commercial software because he/she feels companies charge too much for inferior products... but that doesn't make it OK.
Agreed, because that is actually in the spirit of copyright law.
Quote from: oberonqa on March 01, 2010, 02:17:45 AMAnd likewise... just because you feel Activision is just a magnet for bad press and therefore is not worthy of equal representation under the law.... doesn't mean it's OK to disregard their wishes.
It's nothing to do with the fact that it Acticision, it's simply that their wishes are IMMORAL. I don't feel that the law should be supporting ANYONE'S immoral wishes.
Quote from: Joseph on March 01, 2010, 03:08:53 AM
Just change the name.
"Thy Quest of Kings"
"Behold thy Quest"
"Kingship"
"Monarchy Quest"
or approach another studio with a similar trademark, they could accept it, it could be a bit of a coup for them.
Unfortunately, changing the title would not help in this case as the title is not affiliated with the King's Quest franchise. Most people just hearing about the project might not be aware of this. Thought I'd mention it.
Anon your just arguing moral principle, which is on the same level as arguing religion. It's pointless.
For more substance in the matter, what was the non-commercial agreement about? Do you have it on paper or any meaningful digital format?
A company who is absorbed by another must fulfill it's contractual obligations even when they no longer exists in full rights as a company, except when declaring bankruptcy. As far as I can tell they did not declare bankruptcy. So what's the issue?
Either this non-commercial licence was given verbatim, which in this case it would be TSL's fault or you have a genuine case to continue the project.
I would take the non-commercial agreement to a copyright lawyer. Take donations for this court fight, you have no idea how many people hate Activision right now, even if you don't win the heavy press might force them to agree. No one even cares about this project or most people, I don't. However I hate Activision just as much as anyone else. Even I would donate.
What DOES infringe on the copyright!
That should be able to change. You should turn it into your own IP. I'm sure characters looking like kings and princesses is not their property.
Change a few names and garb colors, and names of places.
Think of what Bohemia Interactive did :)
and the Farcry/Crysis split.
You would have to break from the initial project while you change the assets, and try to emerge without any mention of this project.
I'm a newcomer to this forum, though I've been following this project for years with interest. I'm an avid adventure fan, and now an avid text adventure fan.
Activision holds the rights and trademarks for every game Infocom made. Infocom, for those who don't know, was THE text-adventure company, churning out such masterpieces as A Mind Forever Voyaging and Trinity. They had nothing to do with the development of those games, and they hold the copyright because they bought Infocom, and now the games are off-limits because Activision doesn't care about them. Impossible to obtain legally.
Now I see them doing the same to King's Quest?! The series started by Roberta Williams, the co-founder of Sierra Online?! The series whose copyright belonged to Vivendi?! They're getting the franchise *third-hand* and they have the verve to just stop nine years of intense work, work of love, just because they legally can?! A work of a fan?!
Some game industries love games. Infogrames did. Sierra did. Infocom did. Lucasarts did, but I'm not sure it does anymnore. Telltale games certainly does. Quantic Dream does. I don't think Activision does, and that would account for their behaviour.
Practically speaking, is there any way in which Activision could be boycotted? Petitions don't hold much water with these things, these guys are stubburn. Legally they're in their rights. Boycots are usually better, and they've been asking for it. But short of not buying their products (I don't even know what products they are, lately!) I see no way to.
PS - Oh, I see boycotting has been suggested. Nice. :)
The only real way to boycott would be to not buy their products -- which is sad because I'm so psyched for Diablo III, Starcraft II, and WoW: Cataclysm.
However, I'm more pissed off than I am psyched, so I would probably not purchase the games and I would most likely cancel my WoW account as well.
The tricky thing would be that every game you thought of purchasing, you'd have to Google and see if it was connected to Activision/Blizzard/Vivendi in any way. If it was, you'd have to give it up. It'd be tough, it'd be sad, but it might be worth it.
You don't have to give up every Activision game by not purchasing them... as you can see by my previous posts... well... you know what way I endorse acquiring Activision products... ;)
Quote from: Joseph on March 01, 2010, 03:39:54 AM
What DOES infringe on the copyright!
That should be able to change. You should turn it into your own IP. I'm sure characters looking like kings and princesses is not their property.
Change a few names and garb colors, and names of places.
Think of what Bohemia Interactive did :)
and the Farcry/Crysis split.
You would have to break from the initial project while you change the assets, and try to emerge without any mention of this project.
The character names and likenesses, the locations possibly including several map layouts, and the background story that TSL's story is intimately woven into. Whether all of these would hold up in court as infringing materials or not is debatable, but it is still a difficult task to alter any of these materials whether separate or altogether. I am not, however, debating the fact that it may very well come to this if they want to release the game. I'm just saying it'll take a while to achieve.
hi,
Will you keep the mailing list in order to advise fans here and there of any possible further action you'd like to do ?
I've been watching this site for 3 years now. King quest and all of the other sierra products been in my family for the last 20 years.
I'm french Canadian and all those "quest" series are the reason I now write to you in english.
I was thrilled to see that some independent producers were doing a new king quest. I actually was cheering.
After this, I have nothing to say but f*** EM'. It's not gonna be king graham, its gonna be king Mogram..........
I am gonna boycott any activision product from now on and I encourage you to do the same.
Quote from: tessspoon on February 28, 2010, 09:27:41 PM
Hey Cat, out of curiosity, any idea how many letters you sent last time?
(Posted on: February 28, 2010, 11:19:37 PM)
holy shnaps I've never seen so many guests. broke the record of most online with 121. If only it was because the game was released, not ended. :'(
I know it was under 200...I want to say in the 160s? And I only collected petitions for 2 weeks.
I'm another of the (clearly many) enthusiasts of this project who never got around to joining the forums or participating beyond anticipation and occasionally checking on the site.
My respect and deepest sympathy for the whole team. This is truly a shameful move by Activision. Yet another company which seems has completely lost touch with the heart and soul of their industry - fan enthusiasm. As if we needed another big company to demonstrate that they are within their legal right to treat people like crap.
Companies with their heads screwed on might see the sort of fan enthusiasm which results in nearly a decade of hard work and a persisting community as an asset, a resource to be nurtured. I guess with so much coin rolling in from the big franchises they don't feel the need to include things like respect and generosity in their business model. They don't feel the need to respect fans of older or smaller IPs which brought the industry to the heights it has reached today.
They are a souless machine. In honesty, Activision have been dead to me for a long time. How about we stop throwing money at these fumbling colossi and support indie devs and the few bigger devs who give a damn. Enough supporting monopolic corporate filth.
Quote from: Haids1987 on February 28, 2010, 10:00:09 PM
Quote from: oberonqa on February 28, 2010, 09:57:52 PM
What will happen will happen and I have absolute faith in Yonkey, Cat, and the development team. I know they will do what is right and I am absolutely positive there is more to come.
Hear, hear. If the team can get through this once, they can do it twice.
You guys are wonderful *smiles*
Sorry to have projected such negative energy on here! I just find this stuff maddening. You guys have my full support. Should you ever develop your own IP and release anything commercially, I'll be among the first to buy it.
I think I might cry. I've been waiting for this game since I first read about it at least 2003. I'm a developer and work on my own simple hobby games so I know how much effort would go into a game of this size. I hope Phoenix doesn't let this set back ruin future projects.
I'm so sorry.
To the folks suggesting a leak...last time I heard, Contract Breach is still an offense most companies take seriously. (a lot more seriously than copyright infringement) I personally would never ask another person to open himself up to litigation just for my own personal enjoyment.
As for changes, this one came up a few years ago as well. Seeing that TSL was a game purposely modelled after the KQ franchise, it's not so easy as changing a few names. Not to mention the fact that since Activision already owns TSL in a legal sense, continuing the game without their consent (with or without references to existing IP) would be near impossible without redoing stuff from scratch.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashum.jpg)
I just want to express my sadness over this deed done by Activision.
However, I do not want the team to go out and leak the game.
The team needs to act within the law by fx. this petition and negotaite further with Activision.
The easiest way for us consumers is to abandon all Activision/Blizzard games in the future at least for as long as it takes for them to rethink the the Cease and Desist.
To our friend who keeps on with the leaking part, you should instead give the team support in their efforts to get up running again.
Hey is this the game that the smoker guy who used to be an admin at Daily Click helped make? The one whos rich girl friend bought him a PSP and like 10 games for christmas years ago?
I joined back in 2006, and I'd been following this since before the re-formation of the team (I think), but I never thought my first post would be in response to news like this.
I grew up on King's Quest, and my first computer experience was King's Quest IV. I learned to read from the KQ4 manual, much to the chagrin of my preschool teachers. To say it influenced my life, my ideals, and my way of thinking is a gross understatement. I've waited ten years for this. I'd wait another twenty if that would actually get us TSL, but I won't lie down before something like this. We have done this before. We need to show them that we're still strong and it wasn't a fluke last time.
I've begun the process of rallying members from some non-sierra fangame-making communities I belong to to sign the petition. TSL was something of a beacon; proof that it could be done and done ambitiously. It's not just important to King's Quest fans, but to fangame-makers and indie developers everywhere. Get the word out! 100,000 signatures should be small fry if we can do that much.
(On an sad note, I recently lost all of the KQ9/TSL music I'd collected over the years in a hard drive failure. I had everything from "Arch Druid," "Alexander" and "Nightmary's Theme" up to "The Day You Were Gone." I'd slay a dragon just for even some of that back. . .)
Quote from: crayauchtin on March 01, 2010, 03:46:03 AM
The only real way to boycott would be to not buy their products -- which is sad because I'm so psyched for Diablo III, Starcraft II, and WoW: Cataclysm.
You might be even more sad to realize that in order to develop Diablo 3, they hired on some of the original Diablo 2 people, and then promptly fired them once whatever task they were needed for was done. This (ActiBlizz) is not a company that cares about it's fans, or even it's own employees beyond making more money. Have you noticed the slow gradiation of wow into having the beginnings of a cash shop? It's because they've stopped growing. They're stagnating on subscriptions, and in some cases even losing. So the intent with WoW is to milk it for as much money as they can before releasing their new MMO in development. While the original intent was to keep Activision away from Blizzard, as they were doing fine, the cold fingers of greed always find a way.
More on topic however; perhaps just a little more transparency concerning what transpired between Activision and POStudios? As someone mentioned, having a lawyer (of which I'm sure there are a couple among the fans anticipating this game) look over the negotiations and such would find a suitable way to resolve it.
Also, Vivendi is still the parent company. Have you approached them in regards to this? It isn't out of their hands to enforce their child (Activision) to uphold the agreement for the license. Just like in any job, sometimes you have to go to your boss' boss to get anything done. Just because the IP is under activision doesn't exclude it from still being under Vivendi as well.
Or why don't you offer the workmanship as part of a distribution deal.
Activision FanGame label or something like that, over steam/app stores.
Quote from: fred on March 01, 2010, 04:02:02 AM
hi,
Will you keep the mailing list in order to advise fans here and there of any possible further action you'd like to do ?
Yes. We will keep you guys informed of any new developments.
I don't think I have anything helpful to say at all. I'm pretty speechless. And pissed. I've been following this since the very beginning. Sorry this is happening. Please don't give up. I'll be sure to sign/send anything that might be helpful. I don't know what else to say...
My condolences. While it is a shame to see such hard work casually tossed away, I feel honored to witness such dedication to a franchise that I previously did not know existed.
The staff's work and vision is admirable, and I hope this upset will not discourage you guys from pursuing other dreams.
Thank you.
I personally think the only way to get this back on track is to start a BAN on activision.. $$ talks and a ban of their products will hurt them and make them reflect. Google is your friend start flooding the game forums left and right ...
Bet you it won't take long that Activision will see the light of day ...
You can count me in, i will no longer buy an Activision product ..!
You should get some free legal council or something.
Depending on what the terms were of the original licence you may still have rights to it. When IPs change corporate hands they are still legally responsible to fulfill the terms of licences that exist. Unless you breach the terms of the licence they gave you they don't seem to have the rights to take that action.
...but I can't be sure. This is why you should seek some free public legal council, or contact someone that may be a fan or knows a fan and works in IP law.
Good luck!
Quote from: ximian on March 01, 2010, 07:43:26 AM
I personally think the only way to get this back on track is to start a BAN on activision.. $$ talks and a ban of their products will hurt them and make them reflect. Google is your friend start flooding the game forums left and right ...
Bet you it won't take long that Activision will see the light of day ...
You can count me in, i will no longer buy an Activision product ..!
That wouldn't work least of all now. Activision-Blizzard is releasing Diablo III and Starcraft II, highly anticipated games, not to mention WOW expansions.
Really sad to hear that, but not really a big surprise to be honest, I had my suspicions a long time ago, (yes, I've worked on the team from the very beginning)
somebody has to say it, this project got way too ambitious and out of proportion years ago,, and.. 5 completely new eisodes!?..it stretches the 'fan game' term quite a bit!..
and why are you saying it's because of Activision..?, the contract with VIvendi says they can shut it down if they don't like the demo you sent them, that was always the risk when going into legal contract, isn't that kind of obvious!?, blaming the company merging for this is not really accurate, they gave us a shot and seeing as they probably felt 5 episodes would be way too much or we changed the KQ universe/plot too much..., something I can actually understand, you don't have to be a genius to udnerstand it would be difficult for them to continue the KQ series after this series (or they would 'crash' completely!)
creating a fan game is always a fine balance, remaking something in a similar style, with a similar game engine, in a similar game universe/plot.
I see TSL fans in the forums being furious at Activision now, saying it's unfair in regards to the other kq remakes/fan games out there (....)
if you really want to point fingers, don't blame VIvendi/Activision, but the TSL writers and directors who steered this into something way out of proportion, and seriously, 5 episodes!?,, when the first one took almost 10 years!..
To be honest, this game has created a completely different KQ universe (which is super cool in itself and kudos to the directors for making it possible!), but was it wise....?
Together with the new 3d game engine this stopped being a traditional fan game a long time ago!, and it's now a completely new game series based on a commercial brand, no wonder they decided to shut us down!,
this is just how it works in the gaming industry, just like any other,
we should have been much,much more careful, sensible and moderate,, a long time ago! :(
but at least everyone had a blast and learned a lot,
PS: maybe someone on the team could record the gameplay and put it on Youtube, someone not under contract or across US borders, don't know if that would cause troubles though..:(
Karen--the 5 episodes were the materials we'd been working on the whole time, just divided up differently. There wasn't new material being added.
At risk of overstepping seniority bounds since I really am unaware of who is or was in the team, I will disagree that the project was way too ambitious and out of proportions. It is exactly what a fan game continuing the story line should have been. Fan game content and execution is proportional to how much love the developers have for the series.
I think it is uncouth to rant off as if the team has been whining about the decision, but I digress.
Quote from: Bludshot on March 01, 2010, 07:50:12 AM
Quote from: ximian on March 01, 2010, 07:43:26 AM
I personally think the only way to get this back on track is to start a BAN on activision.. $$ talks and a ban of their products will hurt them and make them reflect. Google is your friend start flooding the game forums left and right ...
Bet you it won't take long that Activision will see the light of day ...
You can count me in, i will no longer buy an Activision product ..!
That wouldn't work least of all now. Activision-Blizzard is releasing Diablo III and Starcraft II, highly anticipated games, not to mention WOW expansions.
Actually, technically, that's THE BEST time to hit them with a boycott. IF you can pull off a large boycott when a company is releasing lots of new titles that they expect to sell well, nothing could drive the message home better. It's just a lot harder to do!
Why would you boycott them when they weren't selling anything!? What would be the difference? ???
Also, it's not like the people boycotting are saying they will never buy or play those games (not endorsing pirating): they are saying "we won't buy your games UNLESS..." Conditional statements are radically different from absolute statements. :P
I still think you should ask them to package it along with their newer games as an extra.
Offer them the RIGHTS to your hard work and engine as a reply.
how complete was it?
i would pay for it
I sent Activision a notice of my own personal boycott which will remain in effect until TSL is finished. Probably will just wind up in the trash.
Shame really, I was somewhat interested in Diablo 3, even with the looney toon WoW graphics, but it can wait as long as need be. No big loss if it never happens, I already have Guild Wars which is the real Diablo 3 anyway.
Best of luck, guys.
Quote from: COlmschen on March 01, 2010, 09:04:30 AM
i would pay for it
I would too.
I don't think it works like that though. Read my signature...
well...
the first part. Unless you want the lyrics to a song from a danish prog/experimental rock band. :P
Hi
sad day... but maybe they will change their mind?
Could someone who was in the beta please send me a private message?
Thanks
I have posted the petition on my face book account asking for everyone's support. If anyone is interested I can print out the petition and have a signed hard copy to mail to them. Let me know! :)
I'm sorry to hear about what happened here. Unfortunately, as the official community representative, I am unable to assist in any attempts to revive the game. Believe me, I would love to help out, but my hands are legally tied right now. But I trust that this fan-base will do everything in their power to bring this game back. I know that this project will not die without a fight. We are called Phoenix Online Studios for a reason. The phoenix may die, but it is always reborn from the ashes. We survived a Cease and Desist once before, and if anything else, the fan base will survive. If I had the ability to help, I sure as hell would! At this moment I can only give encouraging statements, but those can go a long way sometimes. For those that are interested, I have updated the Twiiter and Facebook with this news. If any future developments come out, rest assured that both locations will be updated.
It's all good dark-daventry. We're doing what we can. I've been submitting the copy and paste letter I wrote up over on a thread on the general forum to every gaming website and game development website I know of.
Word is spreading and word is good. :)
BTW: Petition has been up 9 hours and has 116 signatures.
Who's to say you can not take the material you have workedon and created your own IP and game....
Companies do it all the time
Sony and nintendo deal fell apart that produced the Sony Playstation
I just say take the lemoins life gives ya and make lemonaide...
I think if you have a winning team and a lot of product done then hey make your OWN game.
Thank you,
I can be reached at the e-mail addres indicated for further comment
Quote from: oberonqa on March 01, 2010, 10:02:58 AM
It's all good dark-daventry. We're doing what we can. I've been submitting the copy and paste letter I wrote up over on a thread on the general forum to every gaming website and game development website I know of.
Word is spreading and word is good. :)
BTW: Petition has been up 9 hours and has 116 signatures.
Can you provide a link here to the petition? Or should we just look for your posts in the general forums...(?)
EDIT: Okay scratch that. I admit I had not looked yet at the general forums, I was still just kind of in shock reading through this thread. Time for some coffee. ;D
Quote from: knightoftheword on March 01, 2010, 10:08:46 AM
Quote from: oberonqa on March 01, 2010, 10:02:58 AM
It's all good dark-daventry. We're doing what we can. I've been submitting the copy and paste letter I wrote up over on a thread on the general forum to every gaming website and game development website I know of.
Word is spreading and word is good. :)
BTW: Petition has been up 9 hours and has 116 signatures.
Can you provide a link here to the petition? Or should we just look for your posts in the general forums...(?)
It's on the bottom of every post I make. :)
Save The Silver Lining
http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/savetsl/
I got the petition posted up on the telltale forums now since no one else has.
Quote from: mateo360 on March 01, 2010, 10:18:02 AM
I got the petition posted up on the telltale forums now since no one else has.
Great! Thanks Mateo! :)
I hate what's happening as much as any of you - especially since I've seen how amazing the game is. This isn't going to be a popular opinion, but...
Activision/Blizzard didn't issue the Cease-and-Desist order for the purpose of being evil. Of course they're in business to make money - that's what companies do. If they don't make money, then they don't make games. They have to protect their interests - especially with the economy as it is.
They're not necessarily shutting down the project because it threatens them. It could take substantial resources to determine what impact this project would have on them. If they know there's enough interest, maybe they would be willing to devote those resources.
I don't know whether there are enough TSL fans to make a big enough boycott to significantly affect Activtision. I do know, though, that the best hope for getting them to change their minds is:
1) Comply with their demands. This means no leaks.
2) Let them know that you care about this project. If they think the cease-and-desist will negatively impact their sales, they might at least be willing to devote some resources to checking the game out. The petition is a good start. It worked last time - who knows?
I really want this project to see the light of day, but it has to be done the right way.
May I suggest that you contact kotaku and joystiq and other sites and let them know about your efforts? That way the word can spread even more. But I never suggested that... ;)
I have now updated the first post with direct links to oberonqa's threads.
While there's no guarantee will change Activision's mind or not, they did help in the past.
I am do a "let's play" of the king's quest series on my youtube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/mateo360
I plan on posting the petition in all my king's quest videos from now on and I will make sure the news gets out to those who watch my vids.
145 guests online... WOW!
Quote from: dark-daventry on March 01, 2010, 10:26:33 AM
May I suggest that you contact kotaku and joystiq and other sites and let them know about your efforts? That way the word can spread even more. But I never suggested that... ;)
Already done daventry. Both Kotaku and Joystiq have articles up. I am updating the gaming website form letter thread with links to articles as I find them posted.
Well rename the game rename characters and activision can blow me!
Hi Folks,
Though I've never posted on these forums, I've always followed the site through the years with a great deal of curiosity. For me, I was four years old at the time when my parents bought me my first computer (Tandy 1000), and my very first computer game, Kings Quest.
As with some of you, I was entranced with this game and it sparked my imagination. To this day I can relate some of my hobbies and interests back to the game. Of course I've played every Kings Quest in existance, and every other "Quest" game by Sierra Online. I even had a penpal relationship as a child with Tony Caudill (If anyone knows how to reach him, LMK) that lasted a good many years.
When I came across this site, I'll admit at first I was skeptical, but over the years in reading the forums, I began to really look forward to the finished game and jumping back into the continued tale from my childhood.
I read on Kotaku today that you guys got the C&D and it saddens me greatly to see all the hard work and love poured into this project come to a grinding halt. A very sad day indeed.
If there is any petition or any other plans to fight this C&D, I will keep an eye on these forums so that I might add my name as well
Sorry my first post had to be related to this and not something more positive like saying what a fantastic game this is (after playing it.)
Sincerely,
Dion
There is a petition up. The link can be found either on the first post on this thread or on my signiture (bottom of this reply).
Quote from: Bludshot on March 01, 2010, 07:50:12 AM
That wouldn't work least of all now. Activision-Blizzard is releasing Diablo III and Starcraft II, highly anticipated games, not to mention WOW expansions.
.....so what you're saying is, if Activision-Blizzard
lost money on new releases of its three most popular franchises, they wouldn't notice? I beg to differ, they have poured lots of money into all three releases. NOW is the PERFECT time to arrange a boycott.
I'm guessing they'd get the message pretty quickly after just the first of those releases, and then we could all order the game online when they've stopped behaving like a mix between a schoolyard bully and crotchety old man.
Obviously, if they lost money, they would notice. The question is whether TSL fans boycotting Actviision would even make a noticeable difference in their sales. :-\
could always try to post to IGN and gamespot, i do remember IGN doing an article on TSL at one point
The articles on the internet don't mention the petition. What i'm saying is you should contact them again and let them know that you're not letting this go down without a fight! i'll be updating the facebook and twitter later today (at a time when i don't have a teacher staring at my computer screen every five seconds...) with links to all neccesary information. i'm going to help you guys anyway i can. i may be legally bound, but i will take any loophole i can get. By god, we will resurrect this game again. We did it before, and we will do it again!
Quote from: Olmschenk on March 01, 2010, 12:21:39 PM
could always try to post to IGN and gamespot, i do remember IGN doing an article on TSL at one point
the more web presence we get, the better. i know that a lot of the readers over at kotaku are on our side here, which certainly helps our cause. as the official community rep, i'll be getting information sent out later today. i'll be putting up links to petitions and letter formats, and we should compile information on how to contact them by phone, fax and snail mail. i'll do what i can, within my legal boundaries.
Like I said dark, already done. Websites that have an article up have a comment either already up 9Joystiq0 or a comment pending 9Kotaku0 with a link to the petition. The form letter for contacting gaming websites has been changed to reflect the presense of the petition and all websites I have contacted are getting that form letter.
As for your help... just dont do anything thatmight put you ore POS at risk... as an active member of the team you need to be careful. I am just a member of the fanbase and not bound by the C&D which gives me a lot of leeway.
If you like I can PM you a list of websites I have contacted.
Daventry, you need to be careful. Like Oberonqa said, we are the fanbase and Activision cannot legally come after us for anything we do regarding our displeasure. If you saw something Activision may come after the team. It is our job, the fans, to protect the team and the project more openly than you can. Just promise us you will be careful. We don't want to lose a member of the family.
Katie: not saying I think the script was bad, just too long with too many lose ends, it should at least have been condensed into one or max two games,
script wise there is always room for compromise, like epilogues or other ways of wrapping up the story, but having a fan game that elaborates into this amazingly complex ending,- until further 'possibly' future releases is a little unfair to ask of Activision,
The scale of TSL and the script which is really radical imo, has a fundamental impact on the kq universe and game characters, it will of course set a standard and affect any future commercial KQ game,
to me it seems that these things really weren't taken into account when the writing and everthing was decided, most of the team was never asked, like polls or other democratic votes etc, it was just pushed through by the directors, like the art direction, game engine, script and storyline, I do think it was a little autocratic at times,
remembering most of us are just a bunch of amateur volunteers,
I support a petition, you never know, that's true, but presenting them with a half finished fan game that leaves the fans wondering about the ending will of course affect a new furture commercial KQ game, I think the situation would have been much better if we had a more whole package that Activision could have 'related' to, as of now Im just gonna cross my fingers and sign every petition there is!:)
thanks,
Quote from: Karen on March 01, 2010, 12:50:47 PM
Katie: not saying I think the script was bad, just too long with too many loose ends, it should at least have been condensed into one or max two games,
script wise there is always room for compromise, like epilogues or other ways of wrapping up the story, but having a fan game that elaborates into this amazingly complex ending,- until further 'possibly' future releases is a little unfair to ask of Activision,
The scale of TSL and the script which is really radical imo, has a fundamental impact on the kq universe and game characters, it will of course set a standard and affect any future commercial KQ game,
to me it seems that these things really weren't taken into account when the writing and everthing was decided, most of the team was never asked, like polls or other democratic votes etc, it was just pushed through by the directors, like the art direction, game engine, script and storyline, I do think it was a little autocratic at times,
remembering most of us are just a bunch of amateur volunteers,
I support a petition, you never know, that's true, but presenting them with a half finished fan game that leaves the fans wondering about the ending will of course affect a new furture commercial KQ game, I think the situation would have been much better if we had a more whole package that Activision could have 'related' to, as of now Im just gonna cross my fingers and sign every petition there is!:)
thanks,
whops, quoted myself there,, sorry bout that!
Quote from: waltzdancing on March 01, 2010, 12:48:54 PM
Daventry, you need to be careful. Like Oberonqa said, we are the fanbase and Activision cannot legally come after us for anything we do regarding our displeasure. If you saw something Activision may come after the team. It is our job, the fans, to protect the team and the project more openly than you can. Just promise us you will be careful. We don't want to lose a member of the family.
For now I will sit tight, but I'm ready to jump in at a moment's notice.
Somebody from the team should get in touch with Groklaw:
http://groklaw.net/
They will be able to offer reliable advice.
Good luck guys. Your efforts have been amazing.
Hey guys,
I am writing a letter to Activision expressing my disappointment over this decision. I feel strongly that if they had embraced the project, it would have gained the respect and financial loyalties of countless fans BECAUSE they would have had the fortitude to take a risk on a huge freeware fan-produced project.
I assume their decision was financially motivated. That being the likely case, I am writing to encourage them that by allowing production to go forth, it will ultimately generate revenue for them in the months and years to come from dedicated fans who recognize their generousity.
I encourage you to do the same. I'm working to find an address to send my letter to - if anyone knows of one please help me out!
-L
Quote from: Karen on March 01, 2010, 12:50:47 PM
The scale of TSL and the script which is really radical imo, has a fundamental impact on the kq universe and game characters, it will of course set a standard and affect any future commercial KQ game,
I disagree on two counts with this statement, Karen.
First of all, it's pretty clear there will not ever be future commercial KQ games. So who cares what a potential future KQ game might be effected by?
Secondly, it's a fan project. It's always been a fan project and will always be considered a fan project. Fanon is not canon. Sometimes the people who own the IP will see fanon and make it canon, but there is no requirement or expectation that they will do that.
Well, Im sure they have their reasons, Activision,
and there have been 'new' Sierra On-line games made, like the Larry series, Larry's nephew or something, a really bad game, but nonetheless, it could happen, the fantasy fairytale genre has never been more popular with the LOTR movies etc,
but that's not really the point, these guys aren't really interested in 'what if's', they just want to protect their brand names and potential game titles, it's a business after all, and according to the contract we knew this was a risk, if they disliked the beta or we missed the deadline, that was a chance we took when we signed the papers with them,
but this is probably not the best time to discuss this,
thanks,
In all honesty, I don't think Activision would have realized they had the IP for king's quest if you guys never started making this. Don't get me wrong, I am glad you were making this but they probably would have looked at the IP and said "oh look, another series" and never looked at it again.
What if POS entered Activision's Indie Game Competition with TSL as their entry? It certainly would get the game attention.
http://www.activision.com/ROOT/media/sweepstakes/indie_game/Indie%20Game%20Competition%20FINAL%20-%20WEB.pdf
Quote from: Yonkey on March 01, 2010, 10:33:56 AMWhile there's no guarantee will change Activision's mind or not, they did help in the past.
And we will try until it works. The good guys always win. :)
Guys, I'm very sorry that all your hard work and efforts were wasted(although you gained valueable experience through of it all, and that's always important).
But...
you only have yourselves to blame. You willfully entered a world of hell from the beginning. You took someone else's game and just decided that you would make a sequel to it. Being a fan of the game does not mean you get to decide the fate of the series. That's just the way it is. You knew beforehand that you were in the mercy of any lawyer working for the IP holder, and that he could shut the whole thing down with a simple C&D.
I wish Activision would let this one slip. But they didn't. Why? I have no idea. It could be because they want to continue the series. It could be because they want to re-package and sell some of the older games, and want to avoid any clutter. It could simply be because , even if they're not interested in the speficic IP at hand, they want people to know that they do take care of their IP. Otherwise they might have to deal with fan games spawning left and right for IPs they do care about. Whatever the reason, they had every right to do it, there's nothing you can do about it, and in the end, sadly all your work wasted.
So next time, gather your undoubtably talented team, and make an original game. Make YOUR game. It feels better. Good luck.
Quote from: namekim on March 01, 2010, 02:26:56 PM
Guys, I'm very sorry that all your hard work and efforts were wasted(although you gained valueable experience through of it all, and that's always important).
But...
you only have yourselves to blame. You willfully entered a world of hell from the beginning. You took someone else's game and just decided that you would make a sequel to it. Being a fan of the game does not mean you get to decide the fate of the series. That's just the way it is. You knew beforehand that you were in the mercy of any lawyer working for the IP holder, and that he could shut the whole thing down with a simple C&D.
I wish Activision would let this one slip. But they didn't. Why? I have no idea. It could be because they want to continue the series. It could be because they want to re-package and sell some of the older games, and want to avoid any clutter. It could simply be because , even if they're not interested in the speficic IP at hand, they want people to know that they do take care of their IP. Otherwise they might have to deal with fan games spawning left and right for IPs they do care about. Whatever the reason, they had every right to do it, there's nothing you can do about it, and in the end, sadly all your work wasted.
So next time, gather your undoubtably talented team, and make an original game. Make YOUR game. It feels better. Good luck.
Just a little clarity: The team had previously been granted a fan license to continue by the previous IP holders, Vivendi Universal Games. However, Vivendi has since merged with Activision, giving them control over most of Sierra's IP. The team had the green light from the IP holders to continue, and was very close to completion when Activision decided to make this call.
Quote from: dark-daventry on March 01, 2010, 02:34:43 PM
Quote from: namekim on March 01, 2010, 02:26:56 PM
Guys, I'm very sorry that all your hard work and efforts were wasted(although you gained valueable experience through of it all, and that's always important).
But...
you only have yourselves to blame. You willfully entered a world of hell from the beginning. You took someone else's game and just decided that you would make a sequel to it. Being a fan of the game does not mean you get to decide the fate of the series. That's just the way it is. You knew beforehand that you were in the mercy of any lawyer working for the IP holder, and that he could shut the whole thing down with a simple C&D.
I wish Activision would let this one slip. But they didn't. Why? I have no idea. It could be because they want to continue the series. It could be because they want to re-package and sell some of the older games, and want to avoid any clutter. It could simply be because , even if they're not interested in the speficic IP at hand, they want people to know that they do take care of their IP. Otherwise they might have to deal with fan games spawning left and right for IPs they do care about. Whatever the reason, they had every right to do it, there's nothing you can do about it, and in the end, sadly all your work wasted.
So next time, gather your undoubtably talented team, and make an original game. Make YOUR game. It feels better. Good luck.
Just a little clarity: The team had previously been granted a fan license to continue by the previous IP holders, Vivendi Universal Games. However, Vivendi has since merged with Activision, giving them control over most of Sierra's IP. The team had the green light from the IP holders to continue, and was very close to completion when Activision decided to make this call.
From what I know, the team initially didn't have any kind of permission. After 4 years and about the time the game got some exposure, Vivendi send a C&D. Fans send many protests to Vivendi, which coupled with the quality of the demo, resulted in Vivendi granting a fan license, with the term that the deal *can be cancelled by both parties*. After that, Activision took over, and as the contract permitted, they broke the deal.
So, to reiterate, the team started with no permission, got halted once, again gained a fragile fan license, and got halted once more. This is what I'm saying. For no reason at all, you placed yourselves in this legal mess. As I said, Activision may not care about Knight's Quest IP at all, but this could be just a pre-emptive strike so they don't get fan games and petitions and hordes of protest emails all over the place. IMO, the team placed itself in a minefield from the start. And all you needed to do to avoid this mess was take your talent and your skills, draw inspiration from King's Quest since you admire it, and make a wonderful original adventure game, which are so rare today. So sad.
I followed this a little off and on over the course of the years. I find the assumptions of what POS could or should have done, and what they could or should do a little amusing.
This is likely not the last word on the whole situation, and even if it is, I wish the team the best of luck in future endeavors, and may you never be haunted by IP disputes in any future development. :) Obviously a good deal of care and passion went into this project, and I hope this doesn't discourage you and will serve only as another lesson on your road to success.
As to suggestions that they should "just leak it in an un-traceable manner", that's quite easy to say when its not your... lets use 'feet in the fire' (although there are more appropriate euphemisms). When it's not your door they're knocking on with C&D letter, and when it's not your name they associate with the game in question. For most people, its simple. AV may not be on the most stable legal grounds, but neither is POS, and it may cost thousands or tens of thousands of dollars to prove either side's case, and who has deeper pockets? Should AV decide a simple leak from an unknown source is enough to pursue litigation, it takes substantial initial investment to prove them wrong, even if you win in the end. Is it worth the risk on something you were never intending to pull a profit on? Just so you can say "haha take that activision!!!". Pass judgment all you want, but it's not your place to say what kinds of risks these developers should take with what could amount to their livelihoods and their families well being. Litigation of any sort, weather you're in the right or not, takes a huge toll financially, emotionally, and psychologically.
For everyone's sake, I hope they're using this as a show of good faith that POS does not intend to stomp on the toes of the legal IP holders, but would rather work out an agreement that is satisfactory to everyone. They want people to see their hard work. Im not saying AV is in any way at all right in their C&D notice. Instead, I think this was the best course of action for POS, abiding by the C&D after failed negotiations. Throwing a tantrum doesn't help anyone, an I hope some day they can work out a deal to let us see everything they've been working so hard on. Alternatively, if they can transform it into an IP all their own, I would also love to see what they made. Supporting them is all you can do, no use pointing fingers or telling them how they should handle the situation, like they'd take legal advice from a bunch of forum posters anyway. ;)
Quote from: namekim on March 01, 2010, 02:26:56 PMyou only have yourselves to blame. [...] next time, gather your undoubtably talented team, and make an original game. Make YOUR game. It feels better. Good luck.
No ill will intended, but I believe you seem to lack the knowledge or comprehension of what drives people to develop fan-created material.
In my opinion, it's easier to create your own original game than it is to weave an immersive new story into an already-existing story, to fill plot holes that were never addressed in a cohesive way that actually works, to reimagine what 2D characters would look like in 3D, and to explore the unknown future of a series that was abandoned.
Were they crazy to undertake such an immense task? Perhaps so. Were they too naive to think they would be able to complete it unscathed? I highly doubt it.
To say that they have themselves to blame and that making an original game "feels better" makes your whole post appear to be a means of self satisfaction. Whether this is actual or not, whether you meant it or not, I think that it's a repetitive statement that's been beaten to death over several years.
I just signed the petition, and I just had to say: I find it hilarious the captchcas (or at least the one on the petition) have ads in them now. Figures i guess :P
/tangent
Yeah, I suppose you guys are right about the leak, that I shouldn't demand this hardworking group of people risk litigation on top of everything they've done for this game and for us. To be entirely honest, if I could, I'd leak it myself, as I pirate a lot of my games anyway and am thus rather confident about the anonymity of the process. But the best way to get through this would be to convince Activision that they should let you release it, however that may be possible. I'm here with you guys for the fight.
Is there any possibility you could change the names and any artwork specific to kings quest, then release it as it's own game, not a Kings Quest extension?
Quote from: Sara on March 01, 2010, 02:17:22 PM
What if POS entered Activision's Indie Game Competition with TSL as their entry? It certainly would get the game attention.
http://www.activision.com/ROOT/media/sweepstakes/indie_game/Indie%20Game%20Competition%20FINAL%20-%20WEB.pdf
I LOVE this suggestion! XD
"We know you shut us down...but to show there's no hard feelings: here take a peak!"
Honestly, does anything in the C&D preclude this? I mean... they will likely never win as it is a fan game with Activision IP content... that alone probably precludes their entry (though as a competition rule, not necessarily a C&D rule)... still I <3 irony :P
how much has been done to the game since the demo???? i hear almost done a lot, but what really is there?....or is the demo it?
Quote from: hamer1 on March 01, 2010, 04:27:55 PM
how much has been done to the game since the demo???? i hear almost done a lot, but what really is there?....or is the demo it?
It was stated in an article that one of the gaming websites put up that the first episode of five was done and sent to Activision for review, hopefully to be released this Spring.
what article?
Quote from: oberonqa on March 01, 2010, 10:02:58 AM
It's all good dark-daventry. We're doing what we can. I've been submitting the copy and paste letter I wrote up over on a thread on the general forum to every gaming website and game development website I know of.
Word is spreading and word is good. :)
BTW: Petition has been up 9 hours and has 116 signatures.
I agree with DD in the fact that I want to do something to help. Again, being a team member, hands are tied. Heartbreaking. I know I speak for the whole team when I say thank you for all your support. Fight the good fight! Phoenix has risen from the ashes before...I believe we can do it again :)
Well, I'm sending a letter to Activision, and I hope everyone else will too. I hope someone can organize a letter writing campaign. Our previous attempts with Vivendi proved effective, and we should not just give up now. I have no doubt if enough people complained and told them how much goodwill they lose by doing this they would submit to our request. Regardless, we should let them know we feel this is a mistake on their part. With any luck, I can dig up the one I wrote to Vivendi and just make some changes.
It would be nice if those topics we had still existed somewhere that had templates, examples, tips for writing an effective letter, address information, and so forth. It doesn't take a lot of time or effort to write a letter, and it's worth a shot if you really give a crap at all about any of it.
Quote from: hamer1 on March 01, 2010, 04:42:31 PM
what article?
http://gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2010/03/01/fan-made-king-s-quest-sequel-killed.aspx
That info was revealed by Yonkey to the official Fannatics, but since it's in the article and public anyway I figured it didn't really matter if I answered your question.
(Posted on: March 01, 2010, 06:55:27 PM)
Quote from: J-Rod on March 01, 2010, 04:51:29 PM
It would be nice if those topics we had still existed somewhere that had templates, examples, tips for writing an effective letter, address information, and so forth. It doesn't take a lot of time or effort to write a letter, and it's worth a shot if you really give a crap at all about any of it.
Someone posted earlier a link to the original savekqIX site that had their letter on it, I'll try and find the link.
(Posted on: March 01, 2010, 06:57:11 PM)
http://www.savekqix.bravehost.com/
(Posted on: March 01, 2010, 06:59:51 PM)
wow, over 10000 views on this thread. Don't think I ever realized how many people knew about this project.
I really am disappointed to hear this news. I've been a King's Quest fan since before grade school, I don't even remember how old I was, 6 or 7. After all the decades past, just to see something like this come together was like a dream come true. That people still shared a common bond in something that might get overlooked by most was truly something beyond gaming. Because in essence, this wasn't just a game project but a call out to others who shared those countless hours in old school sierra games. When I stumbled upon this website, I was just messing around in my search engine one day 4 years ago and actually saw a website for kings quest 9. I might has well have seen a ghost. I've been looking forward to this for so long. I extend my deepest condolences to those who have worked their butts off for a life long dream to come back. Maybe with some petitions or letters, something can be done. It's bad enough when people work hard for stuff like jobs and college and such, but this was a DREAM. Dream can't be taken away, hopefully activision will understand this. Good luck with everything phoenix, you guys are up there in my book.
c-zo, my first ever posting.
I cant freaking believe this. I feel so terrible for the team that has worked so hard for sooooo many years (I'm pretty sure I've been following since 2002 or 2003) just to be shut down with the finish line in site. DO NOT GIVE UP. This cant be the end of the line. My first thought too was put it out on a torrent somehow but i guess if it were my butt on the line i probably wouldnt risk it..... Yet. It's too bad its not as easy as changing names and the names of places. Like Kin Gram. Man this is just horrible. Please dont give up POS.
TO everyone who doesn't know yet.
click the link in my signature. It's an online petition.
Quote from: Tage7 on March 01, 2010, 03:38:55 PM
Quote from: namekim on March 01, 2010, 02:26:56 PMyou only have yourselves to blame. [...] next time, gather your undoubtably talented team, and make an original game. Make YOUR game. It feels better. Good luck.
No ill will intended, but I believe you seem to lack the knowledge or comprehension of what drives people to develop fan-created material.
In my opinion, it's easier to create your own original game than it is to weave an immersive new story into an already-existing story, to fill plot holes that were never addressed in a cohesive way that actually works, to reimagine what 2D characters would look like in 3D, and to explore the unknown future of a series that was abandoned.
Were they crazy to undertake such an immense task? Perhaps so. Were they too naive to think they would be able to complete it unscathed? I highly doubt it.
To say that they have themselves to blame and that making an original game "feels better" makes your whole post appear to be a means of self satisfaction. Whether this is actual or not, whether you meant it or not, I think that it's a repetitive statement that's been beaten to death over several years.
I'm sorry, but I disagree. There are million fan-fiction stories about,say, the Matrix out there, but only 2 people were able to think the story in the first place, and that's what matters. If it's difficult to do all that you said, it's 10x difficult to invent an interesting story of your own, fill the plot holes on your own, imagine 3D characters from scratch with nothing to rely on but your imagination, and of course start from zero and build your fanbase, risking the possibility that your game just does not becomes popular, not tapping on the existing fanbase of a game someone else thought of and created.
I'm a professional programmer, and hobbyist game developer. Had Vivendi offered me a deal saying 'we grant you a fan licence, but we can take it away any time we like', well that would be the end of it. I value my time and work. Technical skills are good, but you've got to have some common sense too. I can't believe you guys accepted that deal. It's like walking on 1mm ice. Who would spend months,*years* of his life on something that can be taken away from you at any time and there would be nothing at all you could do about it?
Quote from: atec123 on March 01, 2010, 05:53:54 PM
TO everyone who doesn't know yet.
click the link in my signature. It's an online petition.
I posted your link to the petition at bigbluecup in the games in production thread, Stated it *was* in production. Also posted a thread at adventuregamers.com. Sorry if i wasn't supposed to do that, but this is a crock of sh*t. Sorry for the language but seriously... it is.
Dont the Williams support this project? Its too bad they cant contact activision and tell them something along the lines of "hey, its OUR creation, we dont care if they put it out." I actually wonder how they feel about this, have they posted anywhere? Didnt they respond to first round of C&D nonsense?
(Posted on: March 01, 2010, 08:23:22 PM)
Well i thought i posted at Bigbluecup.... they must of taken it down :( I didnt say anything out of line. Just what had happened and a link to the petition.
*Edit* Ah already a thread in Adventure related talk... that would be why. Thought it would be strange for them to just take that down.
It does suck because Ken and Roberta STARTED the company.
They dropped in the chat a while ago. They support the project.
Well cool about the petition. I Think that the games in development only includes games made with AGS.
QuoteI'm a professional programmer, and hobbyist game developer. Had Vivendi offered me a deal saying 'we grant you a fan licence, but we can take it away any time we like', well that would be the end of it. I value my time and work. Technical skills are good, but you've got to have some common sense too. I can't believe you guys accepted that deal. It's like walking on 1mm ice. Who would spend months,*years* of his life on something that can be taken away from you at any time and there would be nothing at all you could do about it?
That's not a completely fair way to assess the situation. The choice was more like: "walk on 1mm ice and hope to make it across or take a cold dip right here and now". One could argue that exactly BECAUSE fan teams value their time and work, they'll take a fan license and know they MIGHT lose their work in the long run, rather reject and and know they WILL lose their work. The option to reject working with VU and still continue was simply not there.
QuoteDont the Williams support this project? Its too bad they cant contact activision and tell them something along the lines of "hey, its OUR creation, we dont care if they put it out." I actually wonder how they feel about this, have they posted anywhere? Didnt they respond to first round of C&D nonsense?
It may be their creation, but they lost the right to call it their legal creation the moment they sold Sierra. (and in return probably got more money than they can spend in a lifetime)
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashtell.jpg)
QuoteIt may be their creation, but they lost the right to call it their legal creation the moment they sold Sierra. (and in return probably got more money than they can spend in a lifetime)
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashtell.jpg)
They may have sold the company, but every thing related to King's Quest has Roberta Williams name stamped all over it. When they sold the company, they sold the rights to make, produce, sell, modify etc the games. It is still her ideas and creation in the end as the original creator. If anyone company does something to the games she doesn't like, she can speak up and say something.
Yeah i understand that Erpy it's just frustrating. I was so frustrated the two places i posted i was shocked i didnt see anything about it and of course both places already had threads. I never do that lol. Sad day indeed i hope for everyone involved this isn't the end but man it doesnt look good.
*Off Topic* I've dropped by your forums too during your projects. Congrats on those. Cannot wait for the new game from Himalaya (you aren't involved right?)
Quote from: mateo360 on March 01, 2010, 06:51:27 PM
They may have sold the company, but every thing related to King's Quest has Roberta Williams name stamped all over it. When they sold the company, they sold the rights to make, produce, sell, modify etc the games. It is still her ideas and creation in the end as the original creator. If anyone company does something to the games she doesn't like, she can speak up and say something.
IT should be that way.
Not sure if it is, but Roberta or Ken contacting Activision couldn't hurt.
Quote from: mateo360 on March 01, 2010, 06:51:27 PMIt is still her ideas and creation in the end as the original creator. If anyone company does something to the games she doesn't like, she can speak up and say something.
Unfortunately, while she can certainly speak up (free speech and all that), Activision has no obligation to listen to her. It doesn't matter that she originally created King's Quest, it only matters that Activision owns it lock, stock and barrel.
That's kind of what I was expecting to hear. :'( But then again, like I said, Ken and Roberta's voices might be louder than ours.
260 supporters.
I checked about an hour ago and it was 241.
Nice.
;D
Quote from: Haids1987 on March 01, 2010, 07:38:59 PM
That's kind of what I was expecting to hear. :'( But then again, like I said, Ken and Roberta's voices might be louder than ours.
That I would agree with and I certainly wish that they would speak out if this course of action does in fact displease them (assuming they have heard about the new C&D). Even if Activision is not convinced by them, it may help rally people to the cause.
Thinking more about this, I'd say the only real way "public opinion" is going to change Activision's mind is if it is negative press. Not a bunch of crazy fans emailing threats andabuse, but something that shines a light on their corporate villainy. To that end, I'd say the one chance of doing this is to get some high profile folks on board to make this as public as possible, in a critical but mature way.
For example, I don't know if Yahtzee (of The Escapist) is a KQ fan, but I'm pretty sure he's a fan of intelligent games (and likely old school ones), so somebody like him would be a good voice. Al Lowe, of LSL fame, has had his share of disappointments with the current industry. Heck, just getting this news "out there" via big, popular pop culture internet icons (e.g. contact Egoraptor to make an Awesome Quest video! :) would be a big step in the direction I feel Activision doesn't want.
I do think this needs to be up to the beta testers and fans, though... the dev team really can't be the ones spearheading this; I still think their best course is to change it to their IP (I'd happily live without any voice acting if that was the major stumbling block).
I'd love to see Ken and Roberta come out on this, but honestly, they've worked damn hard to enjoy a very well-earned retirement (AFAIK Ken is still working on his Talkspot project), and while I can imagine they'd be against Activision's evilness, it really isn't and shouldn't be their fight. Of course, considering them Gods of Gaming, it's a nice dream to imagine them buying back Sierra for a few bucks and letting people who actually care about it sell it. :D
The petition has more supporters in like two days than the last one had altogether (I think?) -- which is GREAT because we're up against a tougher foe. Tougher than Mordack! Tougher than Malicia! Tougher than that witch in KQ5 who we had no hints at all on how to defeat! :P
Now posted on Gamasutra (Game Developers News, job postings and info website)
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27441/Activision_Shuts_Down_Kings_Quest_Fan_Sequel.php?
just my $0.02, the petition would have a lot more supporters if the site was easier to use
btw, any beta testers? please private message me thanks!
Quote from: Banjo on March 01, 2010, 07:58:18 PMI do think this needs to be up to the beta testers and fans, though... the dev team really can't be the ones spearheading this
Let me express my deepest wishes to contribute to the cause, but I honestly believe beta testers shouldn't be involved either.
Someone from Phoenix Online Studios might want to contact us. You can either extract my email from the private user data on this PHP BB, or got to our site and send me a message from out contact form. I don't want to give out email addresses on forums. So go here and we can talk :)
http://www.neurongames.com/contact/
I was really looking forward to seeing this game released. Sorry to hear this... :'(
Oh, what a sad time this is for you guys especially. At least you can focus on your own properties now. Maybe you could rework the engine for a fresh Adventure! You'd finally get paid no more: :suffer: -ing
:'(
The offline, hard-copy letters sent to Vivendi in 2005 were crucial in defeating the C&D then. They're just as important in 2010.
I say we replicate this strategy. A good guide is http://www.savekqix.bravehost.com/, which organized the effort in 2005.
Also, I have sent an email to Ken Williams. It's highly doubtful I'll get anything back, but it's worth the shot.
He writes on his website about "Fan Projects" http://www.sierragamers.com/aspx/blob2/blobpage.aspx/msgid/669573:
"As part of the sale of Sierra I gave up all rights to all games, as did Roberta. Neither of us has the right to do anything with any Sierra product - even Kings Quest (which Roberta wrote). When I ran Sierra, I loved these kinds of projects. I don't know the people that are running Sierra now, so I don't know how they feel about them.
Personally, Roberta and I wouldn't get involved in one, but mostly because of creative issues. I always think that games should be designed by one person. If Roberta were involved in a project, she would want to have total control. It would have to be something that wasn't connected to any Sierra game (or, they would sue us). With all that said, if she (or I) were to ever do a game again (which I doubt) it would be through some game company assigning us a development team."
Quote from: kindofdoon on March 01, 2010, 10:42:14 PM
The offline, hard-copy letters sent to Vivendi in 2005 were crucial in defeating the C&D then. They're just as important in 2010.
I say we replicate this strategy. A good guide is http://www.savekqix.bravehost.com/, which organized the effort in 2005.
Also, I have sent an email to Ken Williams. It's highly doubtful I'll get anything back, but it's worth the shot.
He writes on his website about "Fan Projects" http://www.sierragamers.com/aspx/blob2/blobpage.aspx/msgid/669573:
"As part of the sale of Sierra I gave up all rights to all games, as did Roberta. Neither of us has the right to do anything with any Sierra product - even Kings Quest (which Roberta wrote). When I ran Sierra, I loved these kinds of projects. I don't know the people that are running Sierra now, so I don't know how they feel about them.
Personally, Roberta and I wouldn't get involved in one, but mostly because of creative issues. I always think that games should be designed by one person. If Roberta were involved in a project, she would want to have total control. It would have to be something that wasn't connected to any Sierra game (or, they would sue us). With all that said, if she (or I) were to ever do a game again (which I doubt) it would be through some game company assigning us a development team."
An offline petition is certainly on the table for consideration at this point and is definitely on my long-term plan for combating the C&D. The online petition is only phase one. The idea behind it is to get the word out there as efficiently as possible and as quickly as possible. It's not meant to take the place of a physical petition.
Think of this as a multi-step process... much like building a house. You don't build a house by building the attic first. You start by building the foundation and this online petition is just that... the foundation.
We are also in process of drafting form letters so that, along with the online petition and then the offline petition potentially following afterwards, everyone can send a letter through any means available to them out to Activision.
A Facebook Group and MySpace page is also now available for fans and supporters of the Save The Silver Lining Movement.
Facebook Group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&gid=382202612795
MySpace Page
http://www.myspace.com/savetsl
Join the movement and help us reverse the Cease & Desist!
Quote from: koko_99_2001 on March 01, 2010, 04:50:34 PM
I agree with DD in the fact that I want to do something to help. Again, being a team member, hands are tied. Heartbreaking.
Mayhaps you team members could liaise with some of us non-teamies and we can try to do for you what ideas you manage to come up with!
I am not surprised by this decision but disappointed. I certainly wondered if the project would ever get released due to its long development cycle. I hope the project will be released whether it is as freeware or as a paid game. Perhaps, the game will end up being released by Activision as a commercial game that people can purchase so all the team's work will not just end up in the garbage.
I didn't know if anyone had seen this blog yet, presumably by someone who works with Activision - or is linked somehow to Kotik at any rate...
http://oneofswords.com/2010/03/finding-the-silver-lining/
I love the suggestion I've seen numerous times about simply revising the game to blur out the link to the King's Quest Series. The entire plot of the game is about tying up the loose ends that were left by the - IMO confusingly random - final installment of the series. With that in mind, and having not seen much outside the original demo, I still think it's fairly safe to assume that the vast majority of the game's plot is going to rely at least partially on events that it would suddenly no longer be able to refer to. I don't think you're looking at simply changing the dialogue so much as having to find - and potentially find ways to explain - conspiracies and historical events that you've had to invent after you've already found ways to resolve them. I guess writing a piece of fiction in reverse isn't the most complicated endeavor ever... but still.
In addition, you wouldn't have to just change the names of the characters. Graham has worn the same outfit in what, every installment he's been featured in or appeared in? Not altering his character model is going to be a pretty obvious pull from the original game - and his character is still part of the original KQ IP. Plus, think about all the environments that would have to change. We're not talking about scenery they've invented from a text game description, or assembled from the description in a novel. Take a look at the demo, the way POS recreated the scenes from the Green Isles gave me goosebumps because it was so eerie how much they looked like the originals from KQVI. You're looking at environments... altering the characters appearances maybe... dialogue... plot lines and plot references... not to mention - how much of TSLs musical score was derived from scores from previous games?
And I still don't see how the fan-game differs so much from a piece of fan-fiction. Didn't the adventure gaming genre used to be about immersive and interactive storytelling? I know it's a pretty foreign concept in a lot of today's games - unless you count some copy-and-pasted backstory of why you're blowing up fifty million [insert enemy here] from [insert planet/plane of existence/enemy country here] all over [insert environment conveniently filled with cover/extra ammunition/places to hide here] as storytelling... but these games have always been about the story. I don't see - other than the multimedia aspect - how this is so different from the millions of game-derived fanfiction that has flooded the internet forever. At least in TSL, there isn't some bizarre plot adjustment where the characters have all developed deep romantic ties to inappropriate characters.
Hey everybody,
I've been a little quiet. Seeing how things are slowly progressing, trying to digest all the information that has been flying through my email lately. And trying to cope with the news as well.
As many of you, my heart sank when I received the letter from Activision. All I could think was "not again..."
However, seeing the energy with which you, the fans, have supported us, really brings a smile to my face and reminds me of why I was doing this in the first place.
I wanted to thank you. To thank each one of you. To thank you for being there. For the support. For the energy. For the passion. This is the same energy and the same love I had when I started this project.
One thing I do know. Anything's possible when our hearts are into it. Anything. I don't regret any of the time spent on this journey, and you'll see, how somehow, someway, there WILL be a Silver Lining to this story.
Just like the opening words of The Silver Lining say... "To Roberta... and to all those who dare to dream..."
Dream away, my lovely dreamers!
Love,
Cesar.
I'm another one of those people that have an account with the TSL forum but never sign on (that, and my sister is on the forum all the time, so I get all my info from her). She sent me a text telling me it had been cancelled and got so mad. First, I thought she was joking, because she'd sent me a text once before saying the game was released to tease me (I got so mad at her for that, haha! Good times). But I checked for myself, and I almost cried. :(
I mean, is it just me, or are games today defined by violence, predictable storylines, and rushed graphics? I miss adventure games. Games where I had to think and got to enjoy the story and didn't have to kill everything in sight. *Sigh* Even if all the games are in 3D, there's no detail to the characters faces, no personality. I loved when I played the TSL demo and saw REAL ART going on. Just like the music and movie industry, the gaming community doesn't care about quality, just the dollar bills. So sad, and what a terrible thing for future generations, ya know?
Anyway, I'm not giving up! I've signed the petition, and I'm going around to all the gaming blogs and leaving comments telling all to sign the petition as well. As soon as I'm done typing this, gonna go hit up the international blogs and tell them to sign the petition. Thank God for online translators! ;D
If anyone needs anything from me, let me know. I've got a lot of time on my hands. I'm being serious about that, tell me if you need me to do something, I want to be involved.
Keeping my fingers crossed! Let's do this! :thumbsup:
why don't you guys just change the names of everything and release it as something which isnt connected to King's quest?...why throw away all that hard work?...just do it!!
Why can't you just upload the game to rapidshare? Hide behind seven proxies, upload it, share the link, and they will never know...
Quote from: K. on March 02, 2010, 04:08:26 AM
Why can't you just upload the game to rapidshare? Hide behind seven proxies, upload it, share the link, and they will never know...
First off, I want to thank everyone on the development team for years of hard work and bringing back old memories and for inspiring me to relive KQ once again. I have replayed the entire series a few times since learning about the project and it has brought back many of my childhood gaming memories. And for that and much more I thank you.
To those who keep asking for them to just leak the game or put it up on rapidshare...you are asking them to undermine years of hard work. When all is said and done if the game is ever released, it is importand to do it the right way (as the team has been dedicated to do). I cannot ask them to go back on that, especially now. We have been patient and have overcome this once before. We can do the same again. And if we never see the story or play the game, at least we can say that we were here, either as a part of the forums, or just watching and waiting to see the adventure game genre stay alive.
I feel as though with all of our energy we need to not only support the tsl team, but we should be supporting adventure gaming in general. Continue to be a part of that movement and perhaps, companies lick activision might see that there is a market out there for things other than warcraft and guitar hero.
Petition signed.
K.: Don't underestimate Activision. The moment they find out anything of the game is somewhere online, they know it's something coming from the team. Everybody who has ever had access to the game, was a member of the team at the time.
Also, there's a lot more than just the names of the characters that's part of the KQ-IP.
thats sad...
but if you don't release all your material now anyway you are VERY stupid. espcially the episode already finished.
even if they sued, there is no way any judge one earth would decide in their favor.
i have not heard of this project before, have absolutely no interest in it, but for you to just delete/never publish the work of 8 years is just downright stupid. except if you were employees of activision and in fear of loosing your job. so stupid.
clearly in pursuing such a project for so long you are far from stupid, more likely exceptionally brilliant people. but really to think such brilliant humans can be intimidated to being that stupid?
well thats even more sad.
Quote from: Haids1987 on March 01, 2010, 07:38:59 PM
That's kind of what I was expecting to hear. :'( But then again, like I said, Ken and Roberta's voices might be louder than ours.
Ya! I agree to this!
One way to beat Activision at their game is having Roberta and Ken Williams on board here!
If game will be put back on, then Roberta and Ken Williams can evaluate/decide on art works and character making sure works wouldn't ressemble original games
Come on admin, at least make an effort in contacting Roberta and Ken Williams!
I signed the petition yesterday. I was number 166. Today, I checked the petition and there are more than twice that many signatures.
King's Quest is more popular than any of us realize...
Pj2, Hey, its about time I see you on the forum. In truth she does have a lot of time on her hands. I am her sister and know that she can write anthing up for us if you want her too. She has a way with words, even though I am older, I take my college papers to her for corrections. I hope to hear more about this project and maybe try to sneak a phone call to Avtivision to see what they say. :D. Maybe I'll get hung up on. We have currently 403 signatures. That is truly something!
What an incredible tragedy! I have been following your progress for years and enjoyed the demo very much. I hope the petition works! If nothing else, I hope what you have achieved will bring you success and pleasure for years to come. Good luck to you and fingers crossed!! I hope the petition is spread far and wide so your fans realise what is happening. Have you considered putting out another email with the web link to the petition?
I just found out about this today. I have been following TSL since probably 2004 or so, and while I wasn't active on the forums I always checked up on everything every few months.
I'm very sad and disappointed. I don't have much else to say.
I joined the Facebook group. I'll sign a petition, but I am finding it hard to have much hope.
Early on in this thread I noticed someone mention Serenity as being produced because of Firefly fans. That isn't true, it's just a nice a belief that a lot of people have and spread. Serenity was created because Joss wanted it, not because of fan involvement. So the lesson to learn here is that fans AND developers need to be working on a way to try to continue the project. Developers probably have the most sway and control over what's going to happen next.
I hope that the discussions between the creative team include things like 'what do we do next' instead of 'goodbye'. I understand that it is frustrating and I expect that a break is needed just to get over the grief, but there is most certainly something that can be done with what massive amount of work has been completed.
Quote from: MKCaylor on March 02, 2010, 11:21:51 AM
I just found out about this today. I have been following TSL since probably 2004 or so, and while I wasn't active on the forums I always checked up on everything every few months.
I'm very sad and disappointed. I don't have much else to say.
I joined the Facebook group. I'll sign a petition, but I am finding it hard to have much hope.
Early on in this thread I noticed someone mention Serenity as being produced because of Firefly fans. That isn't true, it's just a nice a belief that a lot of people have and spread. Serenity was created because Joss wanted it, not because of fan involvement. So the lesson to learn here is that fans AND developers need to be working on a way to try to continue the project. Developers probably have the most sway and control over what's going to happen next.
I hope that the discussions between the creative team include things like 'what do we do next' instead of 'goodbye'. I understand that it is frustrating and I expect that a break is needed just to get over the grief, but there is most certainly something that can be done with what massive amount of work has been completed.
the issue is, there is only so much the team can ddo under the C&D. They pretty much have to leave it up to the fans. That includes beta testers, dark-daventry (Public Relations I think), and anyone on the team.
Read the form for contacting activision or whatever it was called. That thread has a lot of ideas. We are gonna send a bunch of letters to someone, who will send them to Activision. You know, this happened 5 years ago with vivindi. I wasn't here then, but it worked like this before from what I hear. The fans got together and helped. Koko_99_2001 lead that one, unfortunately she is now on the team, (Not thata that is a bad thing, haha) and cannot help much.
And we're also running the online petition concurrently with the offline petition (still in the process of hammering out the details on that) to increase maximum exposure and overall efficiency of the campaign.
Ideally, a person wishing to support the Save The Silver Lining Movement will sign the online petition and then participate in the offline petition. The biggest downfall of the online petition is it's general lack of weight. However, when combined with the offline petition, both petitions are strengthened.
I think we're on the right track here. And we've got a lot more ideas and stuff brewing to kick this C&D in the butt... so don't loose faith yet.
Dunno if this has been posted already, I'm a few pages behind, but:
http://kotaku.com/5483798/guess-which-three-games-help-keep-activision-afloat
A targeted boycott is actually pretty simple, given this info, especially since Activision has gotten some bad press in the not-too-distant past regarding their treatment of customers already. Way I see it, there are "only" five major things the boycott has to target:
- Guitar Hero (might not even be that difficult to convince people not to buy Guitar Hero Infinity-Squared, popularity of the franchise nonwithstanding)
- Call of Duty (hopefully everyone who really cares already has MW2, in which case they can be content to busy themselves with it exclusively for a while)
- WoW (likely a big problem, unfortunately)
- SCII (they've split it up into a trilogy, this move is not without substantial criticism of its own, we could build off this resentment)
- Diablo 3 (still a ways off, hopefully we can scare them before we need to pull the tongs on the Diablo diehards)
It will be tough to really hurt WoW subscriptions, and if you read the article that is very nearly the ENTIRE source of Blizzard's (not Activision's) revenue, so I don't know if the other vulnerabilities are going to be enough. I certainly think that this makes a boycott a viable option, however, if more peaceful attempts at negotiation ultimately fail.
In the end, though, make sure you sign that f'ing petition!!!
I've been pushing for a boycott, although it will make sad if I have to cancel my WoW subscription and not buy SCII or Diablo III. But it will be worth it!
I dunno... Guitar hero is one of my favorite console games.....
But I already own all the first 4 so.....
and once they let TSL be released, I can get the new ones.
haha.
But I think a petition or the letters would be powerful too.
Maybe all of the above? Petition, letters, AND boycott?
IDK.
I'be been following this project on and off since 2002, I think? I even played the demo? the team released dome years ago. (I even thought I had an old account ont he forums, but I didn't). This is my first post (I think?) on the matter.
So here it goes:
Vivendi Universal gave the team a license for a non-commercial game in 2005 with the understanding that the contract or license could be terminated any any time by both parties. This is what Activision (who now owns the IP rights to the KQ games has done).
And Activision has send a cease and desist letter to the team - more precisely, their legal team has. Normally, in these cases, you get 14 days or 30 days to comply with the decision, the cease and desist, in the letter - or else.
I don't quite understand why the team need to take down all related KQ material from their website, even the archives. This just doesn't make sense to me. We, as fans of the original KQ games, can still talk about our hopes for a new KQ game, and hopefully are also allowed to mention the fan project The Silver Lining. If not, other adventure game sites such as say http://www.gameboomers.com should make any mentions of even hoping for a new KQ game fo away as well.
As I understand, The game 'the silver lining' re-uses some assests from other KQ games?, including the name of characters etc. etc.
Activision then seems to be protecting their IP more than anything else. This could be one of their motives for doing this; the other motive could be that Activision seriously is considering making a new KQ games. If that's the case, I would encourage the team behind the Silver Lining to contact Activision and ask to get funded to make The Silver Lining into a (new) KQ game.
Another strategy, as other have said also, is this: cut the losses while you can. Take the experience, you have learned from tmaking this fan-based game and make your own game. Independently from the KQ games narratives, structures assests and characters.
Someone mentioned boycotting Activision games (e.g. Modern Warfare etc). I don't think this will cut even a dent in Activisions
bank-building, since, let's face it, adventure gamers are maybe close the being like dinosaurs (through no fault of their own, I find).
A game, like The Silver Lining would maybe sell like 10,000-20,000 copies or maybe around 50,000-100,000 copies, if released commercially. Modern Warfare 2 sold 10 or 20 times this amount.
One could then argue why would Activiosn then feel threathened...
As far as what I have done, I've done this:
I've opened a thread on the
http://www-rpgwatch.com in their non-rpg discussion.
I've also opened a thread on the http://www.rpgcodex.com
in their forums for adventure gaming.
(There's also a thread on this in their general news comments thread)
Sad this is, I find :(
I hope the team do get some good news soon...
While I have only played the demo released a couple of years ago, I can safetly say the game does not reuse any art asset from any previous KQ game. This is because TSL is based on an engine called Torque, which is a 3D engine. With the exception of Mask of Eternity, all the KQ's were 2D-based. Art assets from those games would not even be usable by the Torque engine given then nature of 2D versus 3D assets. As for the MoE assets... those were built around a proprietary engine (referred to by Sierra as the G Engine) and without knowing how those assets were compiled, they could not be ported to Torque either.
What the artists at Phoenix Online Studios did was make all new art assets, using the 2D sprites and hand-painted backgrounds from the earlier KQ games as inspiration. Case in point (since it's still easy to find screenshots on the plethora of articles on the net right now) would be the picture of Graham walking up the stairs of the Castle of the Crown talking to Captain Saladin. The artists had to create a 3D model of Graham AND Captain Saladin... then they had to model the interior of the Castle of the Crown in a 3D space. None of these assets were available to the team prior to them making it.
The only assets TSL re-uses from previous KQ games would be the names of characters and places and references to events in previous KQ games. This of course is the meat and potatoes of the C&D.
I just wanted to clarify that for a bit... as it's easy to make the assumption that POS was just stealing assets from other KQ games and putting those assets in their game. That is not the case.
Quote from: voidsoul22 on March 02, 2010, 11:41:29 AM
- Guitar Hero (might not even be that difficult to convince people not to buy Guitar Hero Infinity-Squared, popularity of the franchise nonwithstanding)
Rock Band.
They actually work at quality, going so far as to say they will not create a Rock Band 3 until they can make some new gameplay innovations. They create weekly DLC (downloadable content), which is and will be compatible with all Rock Band games. And of course, there is The Beatles Rock Band.
Quote from: voidsoul22 on March 02, 2010, 11:41:29 AM- Call of Duty (hopefully everyone who really cares already has MW2, in which case they can be content to busy themselves with it exclusively for a while)
There is always Valve. I still play Team Fortress 2 a few hours every week.
Quote from: voidsoul22 on March 02, 2010, 11:41:29 AM- WoW (likely a big problem, unfortunately)
I can't really comment, sense I don't understand why anyone would essentially want to waste their time doing the exact same set of actions over and over and over and over ad nauseum.
Just wanted to mention the first post of this thread has now been updated with more links.
Question: Under the C&D order, are those of us who did online VA and sent in forms we were asked to send required to comply in the same way?
i.e. are we considered party to the main TSL team, legally?
(Posted on: March 02, 2010, 01:25:37 PM)
Posted on Activision's "Activision Assist" Facebook page, in a conversation thread regarding TSL a few hours ago:
Activision Assist Hi, I understand what you are looking for and the best thing to do is to write a letter (yes good old snail mail physical letter) to the company, in fact you might address it to global sales and marketing or global PR.
We all know how emails and correspondence works and sometimes it is just simply not enough to be heard. Strangely enough, in todays world, the written document still holds its weight and value
Send your comments, thoughts, suggestions, etc. to:
Activision/Blizzard Inc.
attn: PR
3100 Ocean Park Blvd
Santa Monica, CA 90405
You sure this isn't just a lame excuse to give up production? It seems that as soon as things start getting difficult for a couple of fangame enthusiasts they use a C&D as an excuse to give up. However, if this is a genuine reason then I apologise for jumping to this conclusion but surely you can see why people might think this.
Quote from: Tolin on March 02, 2010, 01:33:31 PM
Question: Under the C&D order, are those of us who did online VA and sent in forms we were asked to send required to comply in the same way?
i.e. are we considered party to the main TSL team, legally?
(Posted on: March 02, 2010, 01:25:37 PM)
Posted on Activision's "Activision Assist" Facebook page, in a conversation thread regarding TSL a few hours ago:
Activision Assist Hi, I understand what you are looking for and the best thing to do is to write a letter (yes good old snail mail physical letter) to the company, in fact you might address it to global sales and marketing or global PR.
We all know how emails and correspondence works and sometimes it is just simply not enough to be heard. Strangely enough, in todays world, the written document still holds its weight and value
Send your comments, thoughts, suggestions, etc. to:
Activision/Blizzard Inc.
attn: PR
3100 Ocean Park Blvd
Santa Monica, CA 90405
Here is the link for that page: http://www.facebook.com/#!/topic.php?uid=173789739310&topic=15415
It, to me, almost sounds like a challenge. They provided an address for us to write letters to the appropriate people too. We should all get on there too.
I wanted to clarify my views about a potential boycott in 2 ways:
1. A boycott is dirty business, and is going to be especially difficult to organize when it involves a far-flung, ambiguous "gaming community" (it can't just be the TSL community, I'll return to this in a sec). Thus, it has a crucial "all-or-nothing" element to it - either you get the weight to intimidate the target into submission, or you don't, and furthermore you can pretty much kiss any further negotiation goodbye.
2. As much as we the TSL fanbase love this project, and the KQ series in general, objectively and realistically speaking we're still a drop in the bucket compared to Activision's audience in general, and they almost certainly will not lose any sleep even if EVERY TSL supporter COMPLETELY and PERMANENTLY boycotts their products. This is a move that would depend on huge segments of the gaming community to join us in sacrifice out of nothing more than simple "gamer empathy". Even the portion of the SC2 fanbase pissed off by their tripling the effective cost of the (entire) game wouldn't have much vested interest unless we were to fully join causes, which would NEVER work (i.e. no way in hell Blizzard is going to scuttle the 3-game plan unless they are faced with complete annihilation).
So, overall: it is definitely premature to attempt initiating a boycott. Before, it was never necessary: Vivendi caved under the petition(s) alone. Trying it NOW would only give us the image of a bunch of angsty teens pouting about not having our way, which is the absolute LAST thing we need (not to mention what a slap in the face it would be to the devs if we corrupted their hard- and well-earned reputation that way). It's just something to consider if Activision proves completely unapproachable to a more agreeable settlement.
A couple more things:
- I forget who was talking about it, but someone expressed the sentiment "you guys had it coming" because it was derivative of someone else's IP. I agree that they misunderstand the entire motivation for the project, but more important, the whole point is irrelevant. The team has never, not once, expressed any sense of "entitlement" to getting to finish their work, which actually underscores their passion even further. The team has always maintained the utmost integrity when complying with the C&D's (talk about somethign that should NEVER be pluralized =( ), and don't need to be reminded of the now-manifested risk that they admitted from the start they were always aware of. Not to mention that the whole accusation becomes even more superficial when you realize that this second C&D is actually reneging on an EARLIER agreement, regardless of whether or not the contract provided a future way out for the IP holder.
- @Bob Wilson, and unfortunately others who less recently expressed skepticism about the team's honesty: why point this out? I mean, okay, yes, we have received no "proof" that this decision came from Activision. However, these are people that we have talked to for YEARS, who have NEVER been dishonest with us about the necessity of slow work due to the fact it's all volunteer. We have no reason to doubt their integrity, not at all. And look at what you're doing if you're wrong: the team is actually under the heel of yet another corporate entity, this time with the finish line hovering agonizingly close, and instead of offering sympathy, you accuse them of deceit and cowardice. Honestly, is that STRONG possibility worth the brownie points for accurately identifying a cover-up? Even if you have strong reservations about the team's honesty, at the very least keep them to yourself - please don't drag them into this thread, out of courtesy to the team.
Phew! *heavy panting*
I'll agree with void's general sentiment that a boycott may be premature... I personally am not looking forward to to anything Activision has coming out (never been a big fan of SC or WC, even if they're somewhat enjoyable - not a big RTS fan) WoW wasn't bad, but it's a huge time and cash sink.
My point in this is as follows: Developers seem intent on destroying their PC support - C&C4, SCII, and others don't have and won't have official support for LAN play. That's one thing that bugs me, but this action seems like another foot-dip in the PC Consumer pool to test the temperature and see if there really is anyone out there. I fear that developers are deciding whether the PC is viable or not.
I want to protest, but I'll wait on that until my question a few posts ago is addressed. (re: the C&D and its effect on/against the VA's)
I think all of the "boycott naysayers" are forgetting one thing about all of this:
Activision did this.
Activision, who raised their prices because they could (and who's CEO basically said that)
Activision, who hired people from former Diablo teams and fired them after they completed what they were needed in the new Diablo for
Activision, who JUST fired the heads (at least) of IW, who creates the massively popular Modern Warfare games
And these are just SOME of the really unpopular things Activision's done lately.
Activision is NOT a well-loved company. There is enough people angry with them that a large boycott really shouldn't be too difficult to start, it just takes one group of vocal people to spread it.
Quote from: MKCaylor on March 02, 2010, 11:21:51 AMEarly on in this thread I noticed someone mention Serenity as being produced because of Firefly fans. That isn't true, it's just a nice a belief that a lot of people have and spread. Serenity was created because Joss wanted it, not because of fan involvement. So the lesson to learn here is that fans AND developers need to be working on a way to try to continue the project. Developers probably have the most sway and control over what's going to happen next.
Nah, that would've been 'Farscape' and 'Peacekeeper Wars'.
I tend to think that in a case like this, trying to 'organize' a boycott is a little beyond the scope of the situation and the people involved in it. I think it's up to individuals to choose if they want to continue to support Activision or not. What we can do is simply spread the word about what has happened, and that there are people who are choosing not to buy Activision products anymore. If people who hear about it then feel strongly enough against the company for this or any other reason, they can make the choice not to support Activision if they desire. How much impact this has naturally depends on the number of people who care enough about the issue, and while that may not be enough to actually make Activision feel the pinch all the while they have millions of WOW subscribers and COD players, that's the way it must be.
Any kind of "official" boycott attempt would only be bad blood between the team and Activision, potentially harming future negotiations. If we, the fans who are otherwise unconnected to the project, wish to enact our own personal boycott by steering clear of Activision products, that is our choice (and a good one, in my opinion), but we should NOT, in ANY WAY, make it seem as though there is an organized, 'official' boycott attempt that is coming from the team behind 'The Silver Lining', firstly because there isn't, and secondly because, on the scale that it would exist, it would be more likely to do harm, as an act of agression, than it would to actually have the clout to pressure Activision into changing their decision.
I believe a show of community support via petitions and a letter writing campaign, followed by attempts at further negotiation between the team and Activision, is the right approach. Individuals who choose to enact their own personal boycott against Activision should indicate so in their own letter to the company and\or petition comment.
Quote from: Tolin on March 02, 2010, 01:33:31 PM
Activision/Blizzard Inc.
attn: PR
3100 Ocean Park Blvd
Santa Monica, CA 90405
Thanks for posting the address.
I believe a snail mail campaign is our best bet, outside of the gaming media/publications getting involved. When people can just fire off an E-mail or submit a paragraph to some web form for comments, it does not carry any weight, and it is likely not ever read by anyone who can make a change. Online petitions unfortunately do not carry weight either. Traditionally, paper petitions work because they are a promise of potential votes to a particular elected official who has the power to make the change. It is an exchange, and online petitions are not, and they can not even be verified to have real unique signatures.
A written letter is better. It shouldn't be a fiery hate-mail letter or threatening, but as cordial and professional as possible with only an 11th grade readability level. Most importantly, it should outline why it would be good for their company to go the way you're trying to get them to go. A "what's in it for them" of sorts in the grand scheme of things.
This is some of what I was taught in making a good complaint letter. I pretty regularly write companies when I receive either unusually good or bad service, and even though I'm a terrible writer, it usually gains a thoughtful response.
Quote from: copycat on March 02, 2010, 04:53:15 PM
Quote from: MKCaylor on March 02, 2010, 11:21:51 AMEarly on in this thread I noticed someone mention Serenity as being produced because of Firefly fans. That isn't true, it's just a nice a belief that a lot of people have and spread. Serenity was created because Joss wanted it, not because of fan involvement. So the lesson to learn here is that fans AND developers need to be working on a way to try to continue the project. Developers probably have the most sway and control over what's going to happen next.
Nah, that would've been 'Farscape' and 'Peacekeeper Wars'.
Right, Farscape's miniseries conclusion *was* the direct result of the fan campaign.
really disappointed to here this. I've kept an eye on this thru email for years. Never actually came to the site in a long time :( But that woke me up. Although the petition seemed to think I'd already signed it so signed under another email addy. I can't see why Activision can't honor the original agreement. Seems to me if they buy a company the agreements go with it. Even sent them an email. Not a happy camper. One should point out that Star Trek of Gods and Men, which brought back some original characters and the original Trek bridge back came to fruition. I have the dvd to it. The director and actors worked for free and had a ball doing it. Certainly more trekkie than the reboot.
Is there any way that you could get any of the gaming websites to post something about the situation for tsl? I can't help but think that if it is at all possible to get them to post something either to help the tsl cause or put bad press on activision. (to me having ign pc do a story of you guys trying to revive adventure platforms and already in the past getting a fan license but now getting this cease and desist could be something that they go for)
Quote from: fan of tsl on March 02, 2010, 05:42:49 PM
Is there any way that you could get any of the gaming websites to post something about the situation for tsl? I can't help but think that if it is at all possible to get them to post something either to help the tsl cause or put bad press on activision. (to me having ign pc do a story of you guys trying to revive adventure platforms and already in the past getting a fan license but now getting this cease and desist could be something that they go for)
oberonqa's keeping a running list of all the websites that have posted an article about TSL. Did a rough count and last time he updated it came to 70 or so sites, and that's really only the English ones. Apparently there are many more in other countries and languages as well.
Pj2 is looking for the international sites. She is is Spain for a few months. She will let Oberonqa know what sites she finds
Awesome! Word is spreading! ;D
The online petition is humming away and I am recieveing a letter about every hour, sometimes two.
You CAN'T let this die. Many people have made remakes ect with NO permission. Why is this different?
The game should just....get loose somehow....
Quote from: do it on March 02, 2010, 07:51:34 PM
You CAN'T let this die. Many people have made remakes ect with NO permission. Why is this different?
The game should just....get loose somehow....
http://savetsl.co.cc
Sign the petition.
We will make it.
Quote from: waltzdancing on March 02, 2010, 07:47:05 PM
The online petition is humming away and I am recieveing a letter about every hour, sometimes two.
:o Whoa! That is impressive! (about the letters) I will hopefully remember to do my letter tomorrow. :) (I have this terrible trend of forgetting to do things when I'm at Tech this week :-\)
I assume Activision holds the IP to Space Quest as well? Is that remake by Infamous Adventures in danger? (Has anyone contacted them? I don't remember if I saw any of those guys over here or not)
Very sorry :'( to hear about the cease and desist order by Activision! After so many years and all of your hard work!! I can't even imagine what they can possibly hope to gain by this decision! I have signed the petition and added the post to facebook. . . hope that it will work out as it did in the past!
Has anyone posted about this on the IA forums, btw?
I don't know. I know it is on the Kings Quest 4 remake sight. I have a away to contact G4TV. An email is ready, I just don't know if I should send it to them or not. Please let me know, if they take it, it could end up on their web page as well as a story on their broadcast show.
Yeah, go for it! The more exposure the better!
sent
Yea good idea on sending that email to G4TV. I actually sent the Form Letter for Contacting Gaming Websites on Monday, but another email would definitely help. I sent the letter to X-PLAY btw.
This isn't right. It's highly unethical and just plain evil. >:( I suggest we let people know what Activision has done to you and arrange a boycott of any games produced by Activision, hopefully enough people will care to hurt their sales. I'm not buying any more of their games unless this "ban" is lifted. Unfortunately, they apparently have a legal right to do this since the terms of your agreement did not include the ability to retain the license should ownership change. I wish this would have been included in the original agreement.
Maybe someone broke should just produce the game anyway and mass release it. That way, if they were sued they couldn't get anything of value any way. You guys worked your asses off and this really pisses me off. Activision can go to hell.
(Posted on: March 03, 2010, 03:37:11 AM)
Three things to do here:
1. Launch a massive publicity campaign that will shed as much negative light on this company as possible. Spin it in a way that makes people realize that this company is NOT customer-oriented and only cares about taking your money. The TSL team slaved away to positively promote this company with a game that I'm sure would have been nothing less than magnificent.
2. Boycott any Activision products and services- tell anyone you know what they have done here. Don't support them with your hard earned money! Collaborate with their competition, get on television and smear their name. Let them know that they must cease and desist ontheir own selfish concerns, interests, and actions.
3. This is a bit extreme but a possible solution though obviously I have no idea if this would work depending on the cost. Mass release the game, let them sue you, but only after you have received enough donations from the fans to cover the cost of them suing you. To find out how much they could sue for, consult with an attorney.
Regarding those petitions, I hope the admin or someone that might have contact with KQ original creators (Roberta and Ken Williams), can ask for their support
Additionally, Roberta and Ken might all places to contact and sending those petitions!
Quote from: splat44 on March 03, 2010, 02:54:53 AM
Regarding those petitions, I hope the admin or someone that might have contact with KQ original creators (Roberta and Ken Williams), can ask for their support
Additionally, Roberta and Ken might all places to contact and sending those petitions!
From what I've heard, Ken Williams has already signed the online petition :)
Activision should hire you to continue TSL in order to make the 'official' KQ9, then you could finish the three episodes. Maybe that's the chance to make that happen!
Ok guys, I've uploaded the trailer and the making of videos to my youtube channel along with a description telling of the whole case and a link to the petition.
I hope I can help a little.
My channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/StormSpirit86
It has been a while since I was on, real life has kept me away bit I did return from tiem to time to see what's up. I can't believe this has happened and after so many years of your hard work and just as much fan support on the forums. I have participated a little, myself seen all of this amazing enthusiasm which kept the forums a great place to hang out and read through...
this is really annoying, 8 Freaking years. 8 years of dedication, for which I thank you. I am disappointed myself and mad at Activision. What a bunch of fools. Unkless there would be a shadow of a chance at least to have it released comercially. I'd pay for such a game. Oh, I would.
What a bunch of fools, I honestly can't believe this.
Is there a petition? Sorry once I saw the message on the main site I just needed to post, and haven't yet read though these 16 pages to see if there was/is any petition to sign or help otherwise? Itr could be still resolved somehow..and I hope it will. I'll keep my fingers crossed since I know nothing about American law though frankly I really see no reason why Activiosn shouldn't honour the agreeement that was previouslymade with you.
But anyway THANK you for all of these years. It did give me something to anticipate, look forward to and it was a nice feeling.
You guys are the best and I hope you will be succesful at whatever you're going to work next, individually or together. (hopefully)
With best wishes and always warm regards to everyone,
Night O.
The petition is at http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/savetsl
A sample letter to send to Activision and instructions for sending it can be found at http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8406.0
The Save TSL website (currently a WIP) is at http://savetsl.co.cc/?cat=1
I'm working on the letter now, already signed the online petition but thanks. Maybe these links could be stickied somewhere or added to the mainsite for better orientation though?
-Night owl
Quote from: Night O on March 03, 2010, 09:51:51 AM
I'm working on the letter now, already signed the online petition but thanks. Maybe these links could be stickied somewhere or added to the mainsite for better orientation though?
-Night owl
I've just updated the first post with a link to the sticky thread which lists all websites discussing the C&D.
Atec will update our website as soon as he can. FOr those who don't know our website here is the address:
http://savetsl.co.cc/?cat=1
All the information will be there later on in the day if Atec can manage it. He is a busy person, so give him time.
I see. That's great then.
I do hope all of this works.
Regards.
Great job everybody. On-line Petition is at 1100 and counting! Keep it up. I emailed a few gaming websites and bloggers to get the word out about this so heres hoping we can make magic happen again like last time.
Quote from: jsali001 on March 03, 2010, 12:27:51 PM
Great job everybody. On-line Petition is at 1100 and counting! Keep it up. I emailed a few gaming websites and bloggers to get the word out about this so here hoping we can make magic happened again like last time.
Great! Thank you for supporting The Silver Lining and the Save The Silver Lining Movement. :)
Very sad to hear the news, but surely not as sad as all of you, who have worked so hard on this for so long. Have you had this latest legal twist reviewed by a lawyer? From reviewing the information in the posts it seems Activision's assertions may not be enforceable. The initial "agreement" may not be enforceable as written because they didn't really give anything up (they made a so-called illusory promise), or you may be able to make a claim in equity for the considerable work you've expended in reliance on their earlier representations (i.e. those of Vivendi, their predecessor in interest). These are just some ideas you might consider discussing with a lawyer - only a lawyer can give you legal advice. In any case, thanks for your vision and your dedication to keeping alive what was a wonderful series in adventure gaming.
when promoting this story make sure to emphasize this: the team submitted a finished release (be it an episode or not), and thats when activision pulled the plug. That aspect is considerably more likely to garner random support.
:(
...and to stress my point:
not a great post headline: "TSL shut down...again"
much better headline: "activision pulls plug on fanmade kq9/tsl after they submit a release for approval."
which is why all development should be done in free countries, wikileaks is hosted in sweden, btw, i wonder why? so many people in high places drawing invisible lines on the cake of freedom, sqabbling over crumbs on a melting planet instead of cooperation and exploration. but that's what the cowards in the shadows enjoy, division of humanity.
Quote from: waltzdancing on March 03, 2010, 09:57:54 AM
Atec will update our website as soon as he can. FOr those who don't know our website here is the address:
http://savetsl.co.cc/?cat=1
All the information will be there later on in the day if Atec can manage it. He is a busy person, so give him time.
*Updated.
Tell me what you think about it. Now that it's at least done enough to have the necessary info, we should really try to start spreading it around the interwebz.
My printer's not working so I'm gonna have to use the 3rd method too send mine in. I will do that now.
Looking good, atec! Very professional.
So, uhm, why are we all mailing our letters to one person here on the board and not just straight to activision?
We are mailing or emailing them to me so I can send them all at once and make a large pile on Avtivision's desk. Make him see just how many people care at once. Take an anthill for example, one or two ants at a time you can shake off but if the entire swarm came after you... I think everyone knows where I am going.
I promise I won't do anything to the letter or your name. I won't steal identities, trust me I have enough trouble with the one I have been dealt I don't need another.
Lol, I don't distrust your integrity.
It just seems to me if activision gets one big envelope with all these letters, it would look like just one person wrote a whole bunch of letters and made up names because they were made. If they get a bunch of letters at different times from different people it seems more authentic.
It's not going to be one big envelope. My family and I are going print out the address on all the envelopes, stamp them and send them to the mail office. There are three in town so each post office will see me here with a fist full on letters. I want to build a mountain of paper on Bobby Whats-his-face... and make him open each letter one by one. Is it to much to ask for a paper cut here and there? :P
Hiya all,
I just made an interesting post over at the AGDI forums where we are discussing the C&D and the topic of TSL's impact on indie game development came up. I wrote this post and then figured I'd share it here, as it strikes a lot of chords at the heart of why this C&D is wrong.
http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=14582&p=216186#p216186
Very true... but let me ask you this. If Valve had taken the C&D stance regarding modifying Counterstrike way back when it was a mod, how different would the landscape of the game industry be today? Back when Counterstrike was a mod, it was considered highly controversial due to how it modified the Half Life game. Back then, Valve did not have the policy it became known for regarding open-modding of it's game. It was because of Counterstrike's success that Valve adopted that policy.
Or how about the fan artists that put up a comic featuring Street Fighter characters in a grungy Los Angeles and some rather... interesting pairings (Ken and Chun Li in a back alley for example). They ended up being hired by Capcom to produce the Street Fighter OV anime.
Or how about the hundreds of artists that put up artwork on DeviantArt based on characters in videogames and movies? What is to stop any of them from getting a C&D from an IP owner? It's called freedom of expression and as long as you are not making money off of someone else's work and you give credit to that persons work, it's not a breach of copyright or IP law.
And in the end, that's what TSL is. An interactive fanfic. The only difference between TSL and the hundreds of fanfics about <fill in the blank popular culture IP such as Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Final Fantasy VII) is it's got a C&D. Actually, FFVII brings up a very good point. Have you ever stopped to wonder why Square Enix never went after the guy who made a Famicon/NES version of Final Fantasy VII? I mean... if there was ever a case of C&D-bait, it would surely be that wouldn't it? But yet... Square Enix has never gone after this guy.
Why?
Because all the game assets in that cartridge/ROM is hand made. The guy didn't rip anything from the official game. Not one character model, background image, sound effect, or music track. The guy hand-drew every single sprite and every single background. He used public-domain MIDI conversions (provided by Square I might add) to make the soundtrack. In short, he made a new game that told the same story as FFVII on the PSX. But yet... he's never gotten a C&D. You could go to Tokyo today and run into him on a street corner and he'd happily give you a boxed copy of the game. And he does it free and clear.
What is so different between that and TSL? No art assets were taken from the KQ games. As you are all aware, every art asset in TSL had to be hand-made due to the conversion to 3D. No music was taken from the game. The story is even original. The only thing that Activision owns that is used by TSL are the names of characters, locations, and references to events of other games. You can't even say the character model of King Graham is copyright infringement because the Graham in TSL is older than he was in KQ6 and there are subtle differences in his outfit (the infamous adventurer's hat is a different shade of blue than the sprite that has quantified the hat in the 2D games).
And that is why the TSL C&D is of concern to the indie development community as a whole. Activision is laying claim to an entire work because they say it's copyright infringement when in reality... only 30% of the game could even be considered possible copyright infringement and only by the loosest definition of the word (especially considering the copyright infringement in question is in regards to an IP that has been inactive for 12 years and has seen sporadic surges in sales on Amazon Marketplace for one reason or another). What is to stop Activision from shutting down an indie game that bears a resemblence to Guitar Hero, but has 7 tracks instead of 5 tracks and is called Octopus Villian? The game would bear a striking resemblence to Guitar Hero... but as we all know Guitar Hero is based around 5 tracks at the hardest difficulty. Basing a game around 7 tracks would make it an entirely new game. But what Activision is saying is that resemblence is enough to shut it down.
That is wrong. It's also hypocracy at it's finest given Kotick's remarks at DICE. Any and all indie developers are at risk from Activision because Activisions games span a wide range of types and demographics. God help the poor group that makes a World War 2 first person shooter to submit for the indie competition... because Activision might consider that to be enough of a resemblence to Call of Duty to shut it down.
I'll close with this one last thought. You cannot copyright an idea. You can only copyright an implementation. A person can copyright a schematic for a toaster. A person cannot copyright the idea for a toaster. Think on that and then apply that reasoning to indie game development and see where it leads you.
QuoteVery true... but let me ask you this. If Valve had taken the C&D stance regarding modifying Counterstrike way back when it was a mod, how different would the landscape of the game industry be today? Back when Counterstrike was a mod, it was considered highly controversial due to how it modified the Half Life game. Back then, Valve did not have the policy it became known for regarding open-modding of it's game. It was because of Counterstrike's success that Valve adopted that policy.
Or how about the fan artists that put up a comic featuring Street Fighter characters in a grungy Los Angeles and some rather... interesting pairings (Ken and Chun Li in a back alley for example). They ended up being hired by Capcom to produce the Street Fighter OV anime.
Or how about the hundreds of artists that put up artwork on DeviantArt based on characters in videogames and movies? What is to stop any of them from getting a C&D from an IP owner? It's called freedom of expression and as long as you are not making money off of someone else's work and you give credit to that persons work, it's not a breach of copyright or IP law.
I agree with you on the impact of fan-made work. I believe the HD version of Super Street Fighter II even used music made on OC-remix. Fan-made work can add a lot to a franchise. However, your last statement that something is only copyright infringement if you make money off of it is simply factually incorrect.
QuoteAnd in the end, that's what TSL is. An interactive fanfic. The only difference between TSL and the hundreds of fanfics about <fill in the blank popular culture IP such as Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Final Fantasy VII) is it's got a C&D. Actually, FFVII brings up a very good point. Have you ever stopped to wonder why Square Enix never went after the guy who made a Famicon/NES version of Final Fantasy VII? I mean... if there was ever a case of C&D-bait, it would surely be that wouldn't it? But yet... Square Enix has never gone after this guy.
Why?
Because all the game assets in that cartridge/ROM is hand made. The guy didn't rip anything from the official game. Not one character model, background image, sound effect, or music track. The guy hand-drew every single sprite and every single background. He used public-domain MIDI conversions (provided by Square I might add) to make the soundtrack. In short, he made a new game that told the same story as FFVII on the PSX. But yet... he's never gotten a C&D. You could go to Tokyo today and run into him on a street corner and he'd happily give you a boxed copy of the game. And he does it free and clear.
What is so different between that and TSL? No art assets were taken from the KQ games. As you are all aware, every art asset in TSL had to be hand-made due to the conversion to 3D. No music was taken from the game. The story is even original. The only thing that Activision owns that is used by TSL are the names of characters, locations, and references to events of other games. You can't even say the character model of King Graham is copyright infringement because the Graham in TSL is older than he was in KQ6 and there are subtle differences in his outfit (the infamous adventurer's hat is a different shade of blue than the sprite that has quantified the hat in the 2D games).
The other difference is that it's a competing project while non-interactive fanfiction is not. And while Square Enix did not go after the guy who made a NES version of FF7, it did mercilessly stomp out this (http://www.opcoder.com/projects/chrono/) project which also went out of its way to create everything from scratch rather than straight ripping. (which according to your argument makes a difference, but in reality it doesn't)
QuoteAnd that is why the TSL C&D is of concern to the indie development community as a whole. Activision is laying claim to an entire work because they say it's copyright infringement when in reality... only 30% of the game could even be considered possible copyright infringement and only by the loosest definition of the word (especially considering the copyright infringement in question is in regards to an IP that has been inactive for 12 years and has seen sporadic surges in sales on Amazon Marketplace for one reason or another). What is to stop Activision from shutting down an indie game that bears a resemblence to Guitar Hero, but has 7 tracks instead of 5 tracks and is called Octopus Villian? The game would bear a striking resemblence to Guitar Hero... but as we all know Guitar Hero is based around 5 tracks at the hardest difficulty. Basing a game around 7 tracks would make it an entirely new game. But what Activision is saying is that resemblence is enough to shut it down.
You're omitting the fact that the 30% that could be considered copyright infringment (30% is actually quite a lot) happens to be the most important 30%. You can argue until you're blue in the face about how TSL could have used more KQ elements than it already did, but the fact remains that the game does use all the elements that define a game as a KQ game and removing those elements would make the game fall apart. Also, Activision isn't shutting down TSL because of copyright infringement...due to their license it wasn't infringement anymore. A more accurate analogy would be the all-too-common practice of a publisher funding a third party studio's game's up to the pre-release stage and then decides to cancel it because they didn't feel it was a good idea releasing it. For all intents and purposes, TSL was cancelled.
QuoteThat is wrong. It's also hypocracy at it's finest given Kotick's remarks at DICE. Any and all indie developers are at risk from Activision because Activisions games span a wide range of types and demographics. God help the poor group that makes a World War 2 first person shooter to submit for the indie competition... because Activision might consider that to be enough of a resemblence to Call of Duty to shut it down.
Yeah, Kotick's remarks ARE ironic and more than a bit hypocritical since Activision's rigid stance on IP was already well-known before.
QuoteI'll close with this one last thought. You cannot copyright an idea. You can only copyright an implementation. A person can copyright a schematic for a toaster. A person cannot copyright the idea for a toaster. Think on that and then apply that reasoning to indie game development and see where it leads you.
It leads me to think that King Graham, Prince Alexander and the land of the Green Isles stopped being ideas and started being implementations the moment they were implemented into games that were later released by Sierra.
I admire your passion and share your opinion that Activision was being prickish about this, but factually a lot of your statements are incorrect.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashsnc2.jpg)
You might want to re-examine that Chrono project there Erpy. Square stamped that project out because the team was hexxing the original Chrono Trigger ROM and hacking together their own story using pre-existing tilesets.
There was a leaked proof-of-concept from them a while back ago that ran on SNES9X and ZSNES and it was literally Chrono Trigger with a different arrangement of tiles.
As for your implementation argument, that would only apply if Alexander was portrayed exactly as he was in KQ6... which he isn't. He's older and taken on the mantle of rulership, which has changed him. Even his outfit is different. Copyright requires 10 changes, be they minor or major, in order to be considered a different implementation.
Case in point:
Donkey Kong on the Tandy TRS-80. It looked exactly like Donkey Kong. It played exactly like Donkey Kong. It wasn't made by Nintendo. And Nintendo couldn't touch it. Why? Because copyrighting software requires copyrighting the code. The person who made the TRS-80 cartridge made the same game, but coded it differently (especially in the game loop and logic sub-routines) which made it vastly different from Nintendo's official implimentation.
Another case in point would be:
WordPerfect
Word processor... boring stuff... but what makes WordPerfect so different from Word? The user interface and the document format used to save files. Both Word and WordPerfect do the exact same thing... so which one is infringing on the other's rights? Neither. Because both are implemented differently. They both do the same thing, but the implementation is different.
And you can't say TSL is competing with Activision. In order for it to compete, TSL would have to be called King's Quest IX (which it no longer is). That and it'd be a kind of one-sided competition since Activision isn't working on a project of their own (there's articles a plenty floating around about Activisions stance on old properties and their refusal to make new games based on old properties).
Your argument about fiction versus interactive fiction is also moot. Dungeons and Dragons has a lot of similarities to Lord of the Rings (halflings anyone???) but I've never seen the Tolkein Estate file a copyright lawsuit against TSR. The difference? Lord of the rings is fiction. Dungeons and Dragons is interactive fiction.
And 30% copyright infringement does not equal guilty in a court of law. One of the members on the Facebook Group mentioned that Fair Use might apply to the situation. And the member is correct. Fair Use might actually apply here. Unless your going to tell me Activision has the right to say that because TSL takes place on The Land of the Green Isles (which is different from what was in KQ6 I might add) and you play as a much older and slightly different looking Graham, Activision has the right to claim copyright infringement. Enough changes were made to differentiate TSL from it's licensed counterparts. Copyright law would not empower Activision here.
And TSL was not cancelled. Negotiations on a new non-commercial fan license (ala Vivendi) fell through and Activision responded with a C&D. Your analogy is flawed.
QuoteI admire your passion and share your opinion that Activision was being prickish about this, but factually a lot of your statements are incorrect.
^^ :suffer:
Quote from: koko_99_2001 on March 03, 2010, 04:25:03 AM
Quote from: splat44 on March 03, 2010, 02:54:53 AM
Regarding those petitions, I hope the admin or someone that might have contact with KQ original creators (Roberta and Ken Williams), can ask for their support
Additionally, Roberta and Ken might all places to contact and sending those petitions!
From what I've heard, Ken Williams has already signed the online petition :)
Seriously? That's good news!
Perhaps, you can locate few contacts especially those having contact with the "William" so you can ask them to get involved with the project's art work and ect... The Williams will know as they're the original creators.
At least the William care!
Quote from: oberonqa on March 04, 2010, 02:13:08 AM
You might want to re-examine that Chrono project there Erpy. Square stamped that project out because the team was hexxing the original Chrono Trigger ROM and hacking together their own story using pre-existing tilesets.
There was a leaked proof-of-concept from them a while back ago that ran on SNES9X and ZSNES and it was literally Chrono Trigger with a different arrangement of tiles.
Sorry, I didn't know that. That still doesn't invalidate the point that the project was using characters, locations and elements from a work owned by Square...which is all they needed. The hexxing-stuff is a detail, but unnecessary for Square to win a court case had it come to that.
QuoteAs for your implementation argument, that would only apply if Alexander was portrayed exactly as he was in KQ6... which he isn't. He's older and taken on the mantle of rulership, which has changed him. Even his outfit is different. Copyright requires 10 changes, be they minor or major, in order to be considered a different implementation.
For a lot of your points, I think I'd best link to this (http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html) article, particularly myth 2, 4, 6, 7 and 9. I could copy-paste that stuff in there, but I'd be wasting space. TSL is an obvious derivative work and minor changes like age or outfit don't change that.
QuoteAnd you can't say TSL is competing with Activision. In order for it to compete, TSL would have to be called King's Quest IX (which it no longer is). That and it'd be a kind of one-sided competition since Activision isn't working on a project of their own (there's articles a plenty floating around about Activisions stance on old properties and their refusal to make new games based on old properties).
The name change was simply to avoid trademark infringement. It's still for all intents and purposes a sequel to the preceeding KQ-games and if Activision were to make plans for a KQ-sequel themselves, canon issues would still arise for the target audience.
QuoteYour argument about fiction versus interactive fiction is also moot. Dungeons and Dragons has a lot of similarities to Lord of the Rings (halflings anyone???) but I've never seen the Tolkein Estate file a copyright lawsuit against TSR. The difference? Lord of the rings is fiction. Dungeons and Dragons is interactive fiction.
If Dungeons and Dragons would have taken place in Middle Earth and made references to events depicted in Lord of the Rings, TSR definitely would have gotten in legal trouble, despite the fact it was interactive. But that wasn't the case.
QuoteAnd 30% copyright infringement does not equal guilty in a court of law. One of the members on the Facebook Group mentioned that Fair Use might apply to the situation. And the member is correct. Fair Use might actually apply here. Unless your going to tell me Activision has the right to say that because TSL takes place on The Land of the Green Isles (which is different from what was in KQ6 I might add) and you play as a much older and slightly different looking Graham, Activision has the right to claim copyright infringement. Enough changes were made to differentiate TSL from it's licensed counterparts. Copyright law would not empower Activision here.
Yes, I think I'm going to tell you that they would be able to claim that because the Land of the Green Isles was specifically made for KQ6 and plenty of things that identify it as the Land of the Green Isles were replicated here. Doesn't matter if it is in 3D now. The "essence" is still the same. The fair use clause is limited to parody, reviews and educational means. Since the use of the Land of the Green Isles (or King Graham of Daventry) is not required to make a fantasy adventure game, it's not fair use.
QuoteAnd TSL was not cancelled. Negotiations on a new non-commercial fan license (ala Vivendi) fell through and Activision responded with a C&D.
Still, it wasn't really copyright infringement. A few years back, VU simply said: "You have 2 choices. Choice A is shutting down or facing litigation if you refuse. Choice B is working out a fan license with us that allows you to continue for now, but everything you make will automatically be our legal property and the moment we terminate the agreement, you are obliged to cease and desist development/distribution". If Activision sent a C&D, that was overkill because terminating the license automatically involved stopping development.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashtell.jpg)
Quote from: waltzdancing on March 03, 2010, 09:56:08 PM
It's not going to be one big envelope. My family and I are going print out the address on all the envelopes, stamp them and send them to the mail office. There are three in town so each post office will see me here with a fist full on letters. I want to build a mountain of paper on Bobby Whats-his-face... and make him open each letter one by one. Is it to much to ask for a paper cut here and there? :P
Very cool idea! When I took care of the petitions in 2005, I mailed all of them in one big box...probably 2 inches in depth :P Yeah, maybe it wasn't completely full, but I think the message got across :P
I thouhgt about the box idea, it would be cheaper to mail it that way however, i want the incoming mail box full for them. The box would make it more convienient and if this were Vivindi, I would have done the box but this is Activision and they shut it down before it came out. They need to see them all come in.
Besides, I have no life outside of work and my boss said I can mail them from the law office if I wanted to. I just have to hand them to him.
Even thoygh most people have probably read this thread multiple times, I am amazed at the number of times this thread has been read/viewed (I think it was almost 18,000 times). That is in 4 days time. Amazing.
I recently sent an email to Ken Williams via his blog at www.kensblog.com, informing him about the C&D and asking for his support. Here's his response! I know that it sounds pessimistic, but keep in mind that at the time, neither of us were aware of the Save TSL Movement that was beginning to form:
"I would love to get involved, but there's nothing I can do. Neither Roberta nor I own any rights to Kings Quest. I advised the team way back at the start of the project not to use Kings Quest without the company's permission. Apparently they sought, and received, permission – so, I don't understand how they are now being stopped.
Feel free to ask the group to contact me, but I'm not sure what I can do.
-Ken W"
So feel free to contact him at ken@kensblog.com. I read that he signed the petition and that's great. It would be nice if we could get his name on a letter as well. Someone as high-profile as he is could have a lot of influence.
Hey anytime you guys want to pipe in and say "Early April Fools" it would be cool :)
Quote from: ErpySorry, I didn't know that. That still doesn't invalidate the point that the project was using characters, locations and elements from a work owned by Square...which is all they needed. The hexxing-stuff is a detail, but unnecessary for Square to win a court case had it come to that.
Actually yes it does... because they were using the same artwork that Square had put into the Chrono Trigger ROM. That hexxing-stuff detail is what seperates their project from the Final Fantasy VII NES project. What's worse... the Chrono project was claiming they were hand drawing stuff when they weren't... they were passing off Square's work as their own work. That's copyright infringement. The Final Fantasy VII NES guy has always stated the everything is hand drawn and what's more... it's obvious someone other than Square made the art assets for the NES rom.
Quote from: ErpyFor a lot of your points, I think I'd best link to this article, particularly myth 2, 4, 6, 7 and 9. I could copy-paste that stuff in there, but I'd be wasting space. TSL is an obvious derivative work and minor changes like age or outfit don't change that.
I'll quote it for you then, since I need to respond to each of them.
Quote2) "If I don't charge for it, it's not a violation."
False. Whether you charge can affect the damages awarded in court, but that's main difference under the law. It's still a violation if you give it away -- and there can still be serious damages if you hurt the commercial value of the property. There is a USA exception for personal copying of music, which is not a violation, though courts seem to have said that doesn't include widescale anonymous personal copying as Napster. If the work has no commercial value, the violation is mostly technical and is unlikely to result in legal action. Fair use determinations (see below) do sometimes depend on the involvement of money.
This is accurate and true... except you seem to have ignored the bottom, which I have bolded. TSL has no commercial value as it's not a commercial project. King's Quest has no commercial value since it's a dormant IP. So it could be argued that the violation is technical in nature.
Quote4) "My posting was just fair use!"
The "fair use" exemption to (U.S.) copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's vital so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to appropriate other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. Are you reproducing an article from the New York Times because you needed to in order to criticise the quality of the New York Times, or because you couldn't find time to write your own story, or didn't want your readers to have to register at the New York Times web site? The first is probably fair use, the others probably aren't.
These rules apply to content you pull from the internet as well. If you wanted to criticise the poker strategy advice on pokerlistings.com, you could reproduce sections of that advice in your criticism as fair use. Just copying it to make your own poker site would probably be plain old copyright infringement.
Note that most inclusion of text in followups and replies is for commentary, and it doesn't damage the commercial value of the original posting (if it has any) and as such it is almost surely fair use. Fair use isn't an exact doctrine, though. The court decides if the right to comment overrides the copyright on an individual basis in each case. There have been cases that go beyond the bounds of what I say above, but in general they don't apply to the typical net misclaim of fair use.
The "fair use" concept varies from country to country, and has different names (such as "fair dealing" in Canada) and other limitations outside the USA.
Facts and ideas can't be copyrighted, but their expression and structure can. You can always write the facts in your own wordsthough
See the DMCA alert for recent changes in the law.
As I stated previously, TSL does not damage the commercial value of the King's Quest IP because it's a dormant IP. In fact, it can be argued that the existence of fan-based derivative works based on the King's Quest IP have actually
helped improve the commercial value of the King's Quest IP due to sales trends of KQ Collection after the release of a high profile fan-based derivative works.
Quote6) "If I make up my own stories, but base them on another work, my new work belongs to me."
False. U.S. Copyright law is quite explicit that the making of what are called "derivative works" -- works based or derived from another copyrighted work -- is the exclusive province of the owner of the original work. This is true even though the making of these new works is a highly creative process. If you write a story using settings or characters from somebody else's work, you need that author's permission.
Yes, that means almost all "fan fiction" is arguably a copyright violation. If you want to publish a story about Jim Kirk and Mr. Spock, you need Paramount's permission, plain and simple. Now, as it turns out, many, but not all holders of popular copyrights turn a blind eye to "fan fiction" or even subtly encourage it because it helps them. Make no mistake, however, that it is entirely up to them whether to do that.
There is a major exception -- criticism and parody. The fair use provision says that if you want to make fun of something like Star Trek, you don't need their permission to include Mr. Spock. This is not a loophole; you can't just take a non-parody and claim it is one on a technicality. The way "fair use" works is you get sued for copyright infringement, and you admit you did copy, but that your copying was a fair use. A subjective judgment on, among other things, your goals, is then made.
However, it's also worth noting that a court has never ruled on this issue, because fan fiction cases always get settled quickly when the defendant is a fan of limited means sued by a powerful publishing company. Some argue that completely non-commercial fan fiction might be declared a fair use if courts get to decide..
This section is correct in it's entirety and makes up the bulk of the majority of Activision's grounds for a C&D. However, note the bolded section. Perhaps this issue should be settled by a court once and for all so as to finally establish non-commercial fan fiction as being fair use and not damaging to copyright.
Quote7) "They can't get me, defendants in court have powerful rights!"
Copyright law is mostly civil law. If you violate copyright you would usually get sued, not be charged with a crime. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a principle of criminal law, as is "proof beyond a reasonable doubt." Sorry, but in copyright suits, these don't apply the same way or at all. It's mostly which side and set of evidence the judge or jury accepts or believes more, though the rules vary based on the type of infringement. In civil cases you can even be made to testify against your own interests.
See my bolded points and responses in other sections to see what evidence POS can bring to the table to show their case. Activision can only show the facts that TSL is a derivative work off something they own. That's all they would WANT to show. If made to testify, they would have to admit to other elements that would weaken their stance and strengthen POS's position (since you opened the door Erpy, allow me to inform you that if it went to trial, you can be sure POS would mention the impact KQ1VGA and KQ2VGA had on improved sales of KQ Collection... which establishes fan-based derivative work based on the King's Quest brand strengthens and improves the commercial value of the brand... which is the heart and soul of copyright)
Quote9) "It doesn't hurt anybody -- in fact it's free advertising."
It's up to the owner to decide if they want the free ads or not. If they want them, they will be sure to contact you. Don't rationalize whether it hurts the owner or not, ask them. Usually that's not too hard to do. Time past, ClariNet published the very funny Dave Barry column to a large and appreciative Usenet audience for a fee, but some person didn't ask, and forwarded it to a mailing list, got caught, and the newspaper chain that employs Dave Barry pulled the column from the net, pissing off everybody who enjoyed it. Even if you can't think of how the author or owner gets hurt, think about the fact that piracy on the net hurts everybody who wants a chance to use this wonderful new technology to do more than read other people's flamewars.
That issue can be cleared up by the presence of the original non-commercial fan license with Vivendi. They gave their permission... Activision doesn't want to honor it for one reason or another.
Quote from: ErpyIf Dungeons and Dragons would have taken place in Middle Earth and made references to events depicted in Lord of the Rings, TSR definitely would have gotten in legal trouble, despite the fact it was interactive. But that wasn't the case.
Doesn't matter. Tolkein was the first to put down a description and name for a hobbit, also called a halfling (Hobbits are what they call themselves, halflings are what everyone else in Middle Earth called them).
However, 20 years later... D&D comes out and lo and behold... here's Halflings! And look... they even have the same physical attributes as the halflings Tolkein described. That's copyright infringement because TSR took Tolkein's description and used it (there's no reference to Tolkein in any of the old D&D reference material in the early '70s) and what's more... they were making money off of it. Also, given D&D's rather controversial media... it could be argued that for a long time, D&D was not only making money off of copyrighted material from Tolkien, but was also damaging the commercial value of Tolkien's work because D&D was highly criticized for many years as being satanic and the presence of halflings in D&D could have damaged the Tolkein IP.
There are other examples btw. I just chose Halflings because they are the most recognizable element of Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit.
Quote from: ErpyYes, I think I'm going to tell you that they would be able to claim that because the Land of the Green Isles was specifically made for KQ6 and plenty of things that identify it as the Land of the Green Isles were replicated here. Doesn't matter if it is in 3D now. The "essence" is still the same. The fair use clause is limited to parody, reviews and educational means. Since the use of the Land of the Green Isles (or King Graham of Daventry) is not required to make a fantasy adventure game, it's not fair use.
You forgot "such things as" there. Fair use is not limited to only parody, reviews, and educational means. The article you referenced states:
QuoteThe "fair use" exemption to (U.S.) copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author.
There are other things that can be considered fair use aside from what this article mentions and the presence of the words "such as" implies this. The devil is in the details my friend.
Quote from: ErpyI admire your passion and share your opinion that Activision was being prickish about this, but factually a lot of your statements are incorrect.
^^ :suffer:
You know what, I work for a lawyer, I will ask him about copyrite and what the team holds as and ace if they indeed do. He would be the best person to talk too. I think you may be onto something Ober and I will ask my boss, he encourages questions from me and loves to discuss law stuff
Thanks Walterz! It would be nice to get some input into the legality here because... despite how it may appear to the contrary, I'm not a lawyer. As one poster over at AGDI put it, lawyers would probably laugh at some of my statements. It'd be nice to get some input from someone like your boss.
Quote from: waltzdancing on March 04, 2010, 12:43:57 PM
You know what, I work for a lawyer, I will ask him about copyrite and what the team holds as and ace if they indeed do. He would be the best person to talk too. I think you may be onto something Ober and I will ask my boss, he encourages questions from me and loves to discuss law stuff
Unfortunately they don't really have an ace. They're firmly planted in a gray area. :\
Better a grey area than other areas. Grey means it's open to interpretation and I am firmly convinced interpretation is on our side, given what I have already illustrated.
I don't know. I am trying to find my boss now. He had a court metting today but he said he should be back early. I am reading some law books of my moms and going to go through his if he lets me.
If this grey area becomes more to our favor we can try and have the team talk to a personal lawyer if there is a chance to win. Look at the harry potter books. That went to court and the Author to Harry Potter won. I don't know the extent of the case but we may have something here. I don't know. I just work here not practice. I don't really like the law because it is so open
It's all about interpretation... and it's also about what you can prove and not so much about what you know.
The simple facts are TSL is based off of an existing IP, which is certainly the root of the problem. However, as I have demonstrated, it's about intent and it's about damages.
Activision would have to show TSL damages their IP and that POS intended to damage the King's Quest IP. And in these two issues, most judges would probably rule in favor of POS and define TSL as a work of fair use. Activision would probably not want to admit it, but the King's Quest brand is strengthened by the presence of fan-based derivative work (on a completely unrelated note, I hate typing the word derivative... I keep misspelling it!). It can be shown that sales of KQ games rises as a result of the presence of fan-based derivative work and that without the presence of said work, it could be argued that there wouldn't be any sales of KQ games period, given the last branded release of KQ was back in 2006, which was just a recompilation of existing work.
Now if Activision wants to come clean and say they are making a sequel to King's Quest, then I would be pretty hard pressed to argue against them. I think most of us would be pretty hard pressed if that were the case. But for right now, they remain silent and that silence empowers us and other fan-based derivative work.
I agree and I am going to go talk to him now. Post what I find out from him. Keep your fingers crossed!
You keep saying the KQ series is dormant IP with no commercial value and yet, it's currently being sold. (example1 (http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/king's_quest_4_5_6),example2 (http://store.steampowered.com/app/10100/))
Also, you bolded the following statement:
QuoteIf the work has no commercial value, the violation is mostly technical and is unlikely to result in legal action.
It says there's less chance of legal action taking place, not a reduced chance of the courts deciding in favor of the IP holder once legal action actually takes place.
You also make several arguments based on "there no commercial harm done" or "the series become more popular because of this". These arguments would all result in a reduced chance of legal action being taken, but again, none of them will change the odds once legal action is actually taking place. If no commercial harm was done, the courts might decide the defendant does not need to pay the IP holder any compensation, but will still demand the defendant to give up his project.
QuoteThis section is correct in it's entirety and makes up the bulk of the majority of Activision's grounds for a C&D. However, note the bolded section. Perhaps this issue should be settled by a court once and for all so as to finally establish non-commercial fan fiction as being fair use and not damaging to copyright.
The writer doesn't suggest that it would be fair use, he does the opposite in fact, he merely states that "some argue" it could be fair use, but do you honestly believe that any court will decide that any person can make a sequel to his favourite game as long as he does not charge for it? That would also mean that if only chapter 1 and 2 of TSL came out, but some other team WOULD like to spend a few more years making another chapter, that other team could basically take the storyline and characters introduced in the first 2 chapters and make their own game about it (as long as it's free), portraying it as a closure to the story started by POS, despite POS having no control over it. I think most courts won't touch that scenario.
QuoteThat issue can be cleared up by the presence of the original non-commercial fan license with Vivendi. They gave their permission... Activision doesn't want to honor it for one reason or another.
VU gave their permission, but the agreement didn't contain a single obligation on their part. The agreement could be terminated at any time. Activision's decision to terminate the license may be prickish, but legally there was no barrier bar the moral one. And moral barriers don't hold up well in court.
QuoteIf made to testify, they would have to admit to other elements that would weaken their stance and strengthen POS's position
Even if you could somehow prove that fangames improved sales, there's still the matter that it happened without the IP holder's permission, so it wouldn't really do anything to weaken Activisions demand to have total control over their own intellectual property...even if that total control resulted in reduced sales. The fact that they own the IP also means they have the right to make bad business decisions with it without interferance.
QuoteThere are other things that can be considered fair use aside from what this article mentions and the presence of the words "such as" implies this. The devil is in the details my friend.
Yeah, it is. Fangames aren't mentioned, maybe for a valid reason, and I think highlighting the "such as" to imply fangames SHOULD be in there is really just a case of wishful thinking, but nothing more than that.
Then there's one other thing...the license TSL accepted a couple of years back used the "work for hire"-principle, meaning that all the assets the game used (dialogues, art, musical themes, code) became the IP holder's property upon creation. (unfortunate, but true) The average lawyer or judge only has to look at that particular part of the agreement to state: "It can't be fair use if 100% of the project's content is Activision's property". And seeing that it's their property, they can officially do whatever they want with it, be it shutting it down, letting it continue or continue it with a team of their own.
It may sound a bit like I'm arguing against TSL here, so I feel I should stress that I'm not. I think Activision's choice was decidedly uncool. At the same time, I feel there's no reason not to call a rose a rose, despite it having another name. No matter what you argue, legally speaking the TSL team really doesn't have a case.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashswt.jpg)
Quote from: Erpy
No matter what you argue, legally speaking the TSL team really doesn't have a case.
Then it would seem only thing we can agree upon is that we disagree. The matter with TSL is a grey area, but yet you seem convinced (and I will say you are 100% correct in this) that since it's Activisions IP they can do what they want. Again, let me repeat that... you are 100% correct here.
However, that doesn't make it right and it doesn't make it a clear cut case in a courtroom. That's why laws are open to interpretation and not just black and white.
Yes the IP is theirs and they can do what they want. Yes that includes shutting down TSL. However, correct me if I'm wrong here, but would you just sit down on your hands and do nothing if Activision next went after AGDI for distributing KQ1VGA, KQ2VGA, and QFG2VGA? After all... they own KQ and QFG... they can do as they please yes?
If the shoe were on the other foot, wouldn't you be making the same arguments I am making in response to you? I know there is a great deal of concern over at AGDI about this falling out and spilling over to them. And they should be concerned. I meant what I said when I have no intention of bringing AGDI into the petition... but I will say that if this goes to court, you better believe I'll be getting sales data on the KQ Collection from outlet sources for periods around the time AGDI released their games. I will help prove that it's the presence of fan-based derivative work that fuels sales of KQ... not discount prices on GoG or Steam.
Okay, Basically he said was "You are jumping the gun".
Now, he said that taking down the forum was not right, we had a right to talk about the content we wanted. He is also surprised by the silence from the team as well as Activision, and he thinks there might be continuing negotiations going on and maybe Activision wants a part of the game and we may have to pay for it. Cool by me.
IP cases in court are hard to do and most of the time it will come down to money. However there are several factors a judge must look at but I don't have the time to go into it as I have to get back to work. The judge will defiantly look at how much content was used from the previous games but Activision holds all the aces.
He said to continue with what we are doing, petition and send it to the PR, which we are doing. If we get alot of support then the Public Relations may have to do some heavy discussions with the higher ups.
I think there is negotiations continuing if not nobody is bound to keep quite, they can tell us.
Is there any reason why you even paint the scenario of going to court? If Activision changes its mind on this matter, it'll be done through negotion of the team members or some other inside factor, but not through a court decision...their moral basis may be shaky, but their legal position is frighteningly solid. I mean no offense, you're doing a great job organizing the petition, but the whole court-thing isn't and won't be your decision to make. (and besides, I'm not even sure what the goal would be...force Activision to let the project resume? Or define the fair use clause in US copyright law?)
As for your question what I would do if the shoe were on the other foot...probably the same as the team members here...stay out of the discussion and leave the debating to the fans. :) 8 years ago, I might have made the same arguments as you are making now, but you won't find me arguing that AGDI's games are covered by the fair use clause...even if Activision were to crack down on our projects. And I don't think you'll find any of the TSL members suggesting that...it's been years since they took the fair use statement off their website.
QuoteHowever, correct me if I'm wrong here, but would you just sit down on your hands and do nothing if Activision next went after AGDI for distributing KQ1VGA, KQ2VGA, and QFG2VGA? After all... they own KQ and QFG... they can do as they please yes?
If Activision would shut AGDI down (which I sincerely hope won't happen), I don't think we'd sit on our hands and do nothing. We'd probably try and use the spike in attention to try and get people interested in supporting a commercial (and original) project by the same team. Instead of paying a lawyer to fight a hopeless battle, that money would be better spent financing an original project.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashum.jpg)
I am just relaying what my boss told me and he took it from a court perspective.
Quote from: waltzdancing on March 04, 2010, 02:47:47 PM
Now, he said that taking down the forum was not right, we had a right to talk about the content we wanted.
That's what I thought -- I was pretty sure Activision had no legal foot to stand on as far as the removal of the forums. Even the parts regarding TSL -- it was all just speech, not any IP violation.
That is right but anthing associated with the game had to be taken down. Now the forum can stay up with the TSL Content removed. AKA pictures, music demo, becuase it all goes with the kings quest theme but the forum and "The Silver Lining" Title, Activision has no hold on us. We are hear to stay people and they can't stop us talking about it beucase that is agaisnt the law.
I bet if everyone canceled their World of Warcraft accounts in protest this would get cleared up real fast. I just canceled mine a few mins ago in support of TSL and I mad sure to mention 'why' in the comments.
I'm not sure if activisionblizzard is the exact same company as activision; They have to be some kindda partners anyway.
Go ahead. Drop yer WoW accounts if you truly are disgusted with Activision. It feels good.
I don't know much about the project, but from what I've seen Activision has no right to claim his IP if the game doesn't make use of anything related to King's Quest series.
So, get rid of King's Quest references, change the title and continue the project. It's simply as that.
8 years of hard work? It can't end here, there would just be no justice left in this world if it ended like this!!!
Quote from: ErpyIs there any reason why you even paint the scenario of going to court? If Activision changes its mind on this matter, it'll be done through negotion of the team members or some other inside factor, but not through a court decision...their moral basis may be shaky, but their legal position is frighteningly solid. I mean no offense, you're doing a great job organizing the petition, but the whole court-thing isn't and won't be your decision to make. (and besides, I'm not even sure what the goal would be...force Activision to let the project resume? Or define the fair use clause in US copyright law?)
It should go to court to define the fair use clause in US copyright law. This wouldn't be a gray area if the fair use clause was properly defined to either include or exclude fan-based derivative work. Since it isn't properly defined, it's open to interpretation and I've shown through this conversation that there is at least the possibility that TSL could be covered by fair use and therefore exempt from copyright law. A possibility is a lot better than nothing.
And thank you waltzdancing for the feedback from your boss. Sorry it took me so long to respond but I had to goto work and I just got home.
QuoteIt should go to court to define the fair use clause in US copyright law. This wouldn't be a gray area if the fair use clause was properly defined to either include or exclude fan-based derivative work. Since it isn't properly defined, it's open to interpretation and I've shown through this conversation that there is at least the possibility that TSL could be covered by fair use and therefore exempt from copyright law. A possibility is a lot better than nothing.
And thank you waltzdancing for the feedback from your boss. Sorry it took me so long to respond but I had to goto work and I just got home.
The whole point of my posts the last couple of pages was to indicate that if you want to do something on TSL's account, get signatures or spread the word to kindred spirits, but forget about the legal part. It's a done deal. In addition to it simply being a waste of money to pay a lawyer to try and get the fair use clause to include unofficial sequels (which in itself is 100x as ambitious as TSL's initial 9-chapter incarnation), fair use stopped covering the TSL project the moment the team signed over the ownership to Vivendi in exchange for being able to continue. So even if you could get the fair use clause defined (which I severely doubt), it wouldn't cover TSL anymore.
QuoteGo ahead. Drop yer WoW accounts if you truly are disgusted with Activision. It feels good.
In addition to that, you'll find you'll suddenly have 10 additional hours a day that weren't there before plus the monthly sum that used to go to Blizzard. I applaud your dedication, though I'm having the hunch that the more hardcore/addicted WoW-players wouldn't cancel their account if it meant their neglected wife would reconsider signing those divorce papers. :D
QuoteThat's what I thought -- I was pretty sure Activision had no legal foot to stand on as far as the removal of the forums. Even the parts regarding TSL -- it was all just speech, not any IP violation.
It wasn't Activision's demand to shut down the forum to begin with, that the decision of the team in order to make it easier to filter out what stuff had to be removed and what stuff could stay.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashheh.jpg)
Quote from: Erpy on March 05, 2010, 02:25:28 AM
QuoteGo ahead. Drop yer WoW accounts if you truly are disgusted with Activision. It feels good.
In addition to that, you'll find you'll suddenly have 10 additional hours a day that weren't there before plus the monthly sum that used to go to Blizzard. I applaud your dedication, though I'm having the hunch that the more hardcore/addicted WoW-players wouldn't cancel their account if it meant their neglected wife would reconsider signing those divorce papers. :D
Of course, some of the men have wives who play WoW with them :angel:
Quote from: koko_99_2001 on March 05, 2010, 04:26:01 AM
Quote from: Erpy on March 05, 2010, 02:25:28 AM
QuoteGo ahead. Drop yer WoW accounts if you truly are disgusted with Activision. It feels good.
In addition to that, you'll find you'll suddenly have 10 additional hours a day that weren't there before plus the monthly sum that used to go to Blizzard. I applaud your dedication, though I'm having the hunch that the more hardcore/addicted WoW-players wouldn't cancel their account if it meant their neglected wife would reconsider signing those divorce papers. :D
Of course, some of the men have wives who play WoW with them :angel:
Indeed. Those will merely file a divorce when they catch their hubby practicing virtual adultery. (i.e: snogging up avatars controlled by other people)
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashlaug.jpg)
Bet there are even woman that divorce their hubbies when they catch them practicing normal adultery! Seriously, whatever we do, it is never good enough for them... ::) ::) ::)
A CALL TO ARMS has been issued. It's time to email Activision and give them a taste of the heat we, the fans of The Silver Lining, are capable of bringing to their door!
Information on this CALL TO ARMS is available at http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8424.0
POS TSL Team:
Though I've only been aware of this project for about two years, please accept my sympathies that this has happened to you again. You do excellent work, have been doing said excellent work for a long time, and this has to have been a shock to your collective systems. As outrageous as this circumstance is, from all sides, you are doing the right thing and have my applause for your moral uprightness.
Is there any way we can get the COMPLETE and EXACT wording of the original Vivendi agreement here, on the forum, or was that made under a non-disclosure policy? I mean the precise, full, and entire contractual wording (not just the circumstances, like to whom the work ends up belonging upon break of contract), including numeric designations. Some of us can write darned-good individual letters (have even been trained in the technical communication that renders a letter transparent to both management and programmers), but it works better if we know the specific documentary grounds of the situation.
Apologies if it's already here... I've read the whole forum and most of the links, and can't find it.
Best wishes.
Quote from: CageyJay on March 05, 2010, 01:20:15 PM
Apologies if it's already here... I've read the whole forum and most of the links, and can't find it.
Best wishes.
I vaguely remember something about non-disclosure, but I might be making that up. Almost certain though that's never been posted, at least not in the 3.5 years I've been here.
Quote from: tessspoon on March 05, 2010, 01:29:55 PM
Quote from: CageyJay on March 05, 2010, 01:20:15 PM
Apologies if it's already here... I've read the whole forum and most of the links, and can't find it.
Best wishes.
I vaguely remember something about non-disclosure, but I might be making that up. Almost certain though that's never been posted, at least not in the 3.5 years I've been here.
*Nods.* I thought it would probably be so, but there was no harm in asking. Ah well.
A couple of us tech-writers and writing/rhetoric students will be sending some letters to Activision. Perhaps the differing forms will escape from whomever they set to the task of receiving and answering the TSL petition, and get a few more levels of management involved.
As always, best wishes!
*Wanders away, grousing.* First they swallow the InfoCom catalogue... now this....
Bah this sucks! I was really lookin forward to this project, I have lurked for too long! I will be sending an email to Activision, this decision clearly needs to be rethought. My sympathies to the entire team and also you fans! I would suggest sending in as many paper letters as you guys can, they hold more weight. You guys are doing a great job though I think with the battle cries, they won't go unnoticed, and if they do ignore them it will make them look like complete A@#holes. Anyways guys I am disheartened, but never give up, there is hope! I'm behind you guys.
Hard copy letters come in everyday. I have even taken in copies to work to have my comrads there sign, even my mom and dad are going to take letters in to their work. People don't have to know what it is, the more names the better in my opinion.
I do have to say, at work a stron g activision supporters works with me and its funny to see the tension build up in the room when we are in the lounge together.
Quote from: Japster83 on March 05, 2010, 01:57:22 PM
Bah this sucks! I was really lookin forward to this project, I have lurked for too long! I will be sending an email to Activision, this decision clearly needs to be rethought. My sympathies to the entire team and also you fans! I would suggest sending in as many paper letters as you guys can, they hold more weight. You guys are doing a great job though I think with the battle cries, they won't go unnoticed, and if they do ignore them it will make them look like complete A@#holes. Anyways guys I am disheartened, but never give up, there is hope! I'm behind you guys.
Well, when the project comes roaring back to life don't lurk, Japster! Come hang with us in the Asylum! (Well, with the people left in the Asylum... I escaped with a spork. :P)
Waltz, how does Activision even HAVE strong supporters? I don't just mean because of this -- I mean ALL of the BS they pull? Maybe you should write up a list of every offense Activision has performed since under the direction of Bobby "I-Hate-Video-Games" Kotick (who has actually admitted that he doesn't play video games and doesn't care about video games, just profit) and see how your coworker feels upon viewing that!
In case you're curious (and these are only the ones I know of, I'm sure there's more.)
-raised prices on video games for no real reason, and admitted that he would raise them higher if he thought he could get away with it (and plans to raise prices again some time in the future)
-attempted not to pay royalties to Valve (followed by a lawsuit)
-used the band No Doubt in the game Band Hero without the permission of No Doubt
-fired Diablo team members (from the previous two games) as soon as they had completed the specific items that they were needed for in Diablo III
-fired the heads of Infinity Ward, the creators of Call of Duty and Modern Warfare -- Activision's biggest selling items -- just before they got paid for royalties, with vague reasons as to why
-canceled TSL after eight years of work
Why?
Most likely because Activision wasn't directly making money from it and/or couldn't guarantee a sequel every 10 months until no one cares anymore (I mean, what? there's only NINE chapters?? NOT ENOUGH!) I mean, that's why Activision didn't produce the Ghostbuster game, because they didn't think the guy who wrote it would be able to come up with a new one every year.
He is a hard core WoW player. He has all the games and he is into the Guitar hero. He brings his laptop to work to play WoW while he is off tutor hours. Aside from working at a lawfirm I also work at the math center for the university.
He says that TSL stepped over a line when they wanted to use Activisions property he is defending that point while I argue that there is no harm to be done. He isn't sold. He says there is no proof that the release of TSL will raise the awareness for the series or of the amount of KQC sold.
He's weird. I didn't get along with him before but he has to sign our petition which all tutors have to do because we support each other at work. Oh the irony. :suffer:
Quote from: waltzdancing on March 05, 2010, 03:02:45 PM
He is a hard core WoW player. He has all the games and he is into the Guitar hero. He brings his laptop to work to play WoW while he is off tutor hours. Aside from working at a lawfirm I also work at the math center for the university.
He says that TSL stepped over a line when they wanted to use Activisions property he is defending that point while I argue that there is no harm to be done. He isn't sold. He says there is no proof that the release of TSL will raise the awareness for the series or of the amount of KQC sold.
He's weird. I didn't get along with him before but he has to sign our petition which all tutors have to do because we support each other at work. Oh the irony. :suffer:
Hey, as long as he signs it.
And if he wants evidence that TSL will improve awareness and sales, simply point out that the previous remakes did just that when they were released.
It would be easy enough to get sales data from Amazon, which keeps track of item sales (even those items sold through Amazon Marketplace) for the months following the release of KQ1VGA and KQ2VGA....
I am keeping away from him. He works upstairs and I am downstairs. As long as he stays out of my way and signs the petition I am happy. Maybe set a trip wire around for him sometime, who knows.
Heh. My friend is a pretty huge Activision supporter as well. Obsessed with Starcraft, Diablo, etc.
He asked me why it mattered that TSL got canceled and I just about punched him in the face. :P
I also just discovered that, after the Activision/Blizzard/Vivendi merger, Activision killed some games that Vivendi was promoting that were almost finished -- not just Ghostbuster (which Vivendi had even restored the Ecto1 to advertise), but Brutal Legend.
However, when Brutal Legend was then finished and released by someone else and started making tons of money, Activision sued EA because (apparently) they felt entitled to see money from it and "weren't aware" that EA had acquired the rights.
Here's a thought, Activision -- if you want to see money from a game, DON'T cancel it! *sigh*
Quote from: crayauchtin on March 05, 2010, 02:57:31 PM
Well, when the project comes roaring back to life don't lurk, Japster! Come hang with us in the Asylum! (Well, with the people left in the Asylum... I escaped with a spork. :P)
Only because the thread got killed before CC had a chance to respond to it. :P ::)
Well, see, what really happened was, I started digging and then I imagined myself outside of the Asylum. And since I was always told "If you can imagine it, then it can be real"... it must be real! :D
I have nothing but disgust for Activision. With all legality aside, 8 years of hard work just went down the drain.
I will be sure to boycott all current and future products manufactured by Activision. I know one person won't mean much to them, but it's about all I can do.
This can't be just it! I mean you guys have worked so many years (so many years I even didn't know about) and now Activision think they are all like god-like. I've been following this project ever since 2006 in silence, but now I finally make my speech on this cruel insane thing they are going to do!
Quote from: RollingStone on March 04, 2010, 11:14:47 AM
I recently sent an email to Ken Williams via his blog at www.kensblog.com, informing him about the C&D and asking for his support. Here's his response! I know that it sounds pessimistic, but keep in mind that at the time, neither of us were aware of the Save TSL Movement that was beginning to form:
"I would love to get involved, but there's nothing I can do. Neither Roberta nor I own any rights to Kings Quest. I advised the team way back at the start of the project not to use Kings Quest without the company's permission. Apparently they sought, and received, permission – so, I don't understand how they are now being stopped.
Feel free to ask the group to contact me, but I'm not sure what I can do.
-Ken W"
So feel free to contact him at ken@kensblog.com. I read that he signed the petition and that's great. It would be nice if we could get his name on a letter as well. Someone as high-profile as he is could have a lot of influence.
At least somene has contact with the Willians!
Since Ken ask the group to contact him hopefgully the group can plan this carefully especially game name, art works and related information.
We know that Ken has no right with KQ but I am certain that He knows information as I ready stated!
I haven't contacted Ken on behalf of the Save TSL Movement yet because I want to ensure that when I do contact him, I have a solid idea of what Ken can do to help. I value and respect his time and will not waste the time he is prepared to give to us with idle talk.
Be rest assured that when I have a solid idea of what Ken and Roberta Williams can do to help, I will contact them.
QuoteAt least somene has contact with the Willians!
Since Ken ask the group to contact him hopefgully the group can plan this carefully especially game name, art works and related information.
We know that Ken has no right with KQ but I am certain that He knows information as I ready stated!
It's kind of Ken to have signed the petition, but I don't think there's a great deal of additional help he can offer. (he says as much himself) A good deal of former Sierra employees have been directly or indirectly involved with the fangame community at some point the last decade, but with the possible exception of Josh Mandel, most also prefer to a low profile.
The unspoken policy of the fangame community has usually been; "Don't drag the former Sierra staff into the thick of things unless they want to be there". Ken and Roberta were never directly involved with the TSL team. I'm expecting them not to be directly involved with the Save TSL team either. Ken left the computer games business a long time ago. I don't think he has more influence than any other retired businessman.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
Quote from: Erpy on March 06, 2010, 11:13:01 AM
QuoteAt least somene has contact with the Willians!
Since Ken ask the group to contact him hopefgully the group can plan this carefully especially game name, art works and related information.
We know that Ken has no right with KQ but I am certain that He knows information as I ready stated!
It's kind of Ken to have signed the petition, but I don't think there's a great deal of additional help he can offer. (he says as much himself) A good deal of former Sierra employees have been directly or indirectly involved with the fangame community at some point the last decade, but with the possible exception of Josh Mandel, most also prefer to a low profile.
The unspoken policy of the fangame community has usually been; "Don't drag the former Sierra staff into the thick of things unless they want to be there". Ken and Roberta were never directly involved with the TSL team. I'm expecting them not to be directly involved with the Save TSL team either. Ken left the computer games business a long time ago. I don't think he has more influence than any other retired businessman.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
You might want to go check out the Facebook Group... there are some former Sierra employees among the 370+ members of that group, including Josh Mandel and Sierra Chest (which maintains in constant contact with the Sierra Alumni).
I myself am friends with Al Lowe and I assure you, the Sierra Alumni are following this. What they choose to do or not do is entirely up to them. Some are more outspoken than others historically **cough Scott Murphy and Josh Mandel cough**, but they are all following and doing their own thing. Whether they choose to publicize what they are doing is their choice and we respect their privacy.
Okay, head's up everyone --
I'm going to be working on a video to post to my 1k subscribers on YouTube to try and get more people to sign the petition and mail in letters. I think it would be more effective if there are more than just one face and voice in the video; so if any of you want to help out, please record a short (under a 30 seconds) personal account about what King's Quest means to you and announce your support for the release of TSL.
My email address is jules.ismail@gmail.com
I hope to release this video sometime this next week so please send your clips in ASAP and also send me an email in advance so I know to expect one from you!
Video format and quality don't really matter as long as we can see and understand you!
I'd prefer mp4 or mov because they're easiest for me to work with, but wmv is also fine.
Thanks and if you are unable to contribute a clip, please pass along this information to anyone who you think can. Long live TSL.
Again, my email address is jules.ismail@gmail.com you can send direct any questions for me there to ensure I receive them.
Great idea there! Be sure to keep us posted. I see you already got the info up on the Facebook Group. You should have no problems getting what you need, as I am sure we all have fond memories and an idea of what TSL and King's Quest means to us as fans.
So, while Erik and I were at the marriage retreat this weekend, we were talking to this one guy who's niece is a speech path like me, and the niece's wife who does programming (like Erik). Anyway, as we were talking, he said his nephew-in-law :P worked for places like Sony and Activision. :o :o :o
After explaining TSL's situation, I asked his nephew's name. Turns out he was contracted out to Activision and has no influence...oh well. I tried :P
Small world, huh?
I don't believe in chance Cat, only purpose. Your meeting with the nephew-in-law was therefore not chance, but purpose. Who knows how many people that nephew-in-law might speak to regarding TSL. Who knows how many people those people might speak to regarding TSL.
Such is the way of things. I know I sound like something out of The Matrix... but it's one of the core concepts I live my life on. There is no chance... only purpose. It is a concept that has served me well in my life.
Take comfort in your meeting with that nephew-in-law. Who knows what may come of it...
No, I didn't meet the nephew-in-law...I met with the uncle :P
oooo - ok then.... Uncle!
SAY UNCLE!!!!
lol sorry about that.
Quote from: theroachyjay on March 06, 2010, 03:33:27 PM
Okay, head's up everyone --
I'm going to be working on a video to post to my 1k subscribers on YouTube to try and get more people to sign the petition and mail in letters. I think it would be more effective if there are more than just one face and voice in the video; so if any of you want to help out, please record a short (under a 30 seconds) personal account about what King's Quest means to you and announce your support for the release of TSL.
My email address is jules.ismail@gmail.com
I hope to release this video sometime this next week so please send your clips in ASAP and also send me an email in advance so I know to expect one from you!
Video format and quality don't really matter as long as we can see and understand you!
I'd prefer mp4 or mov because they're easiest for me to work with, but wmv is also fine.
Thanks and if you are unable to contribute a clip, please pass along this information to anyone who you think can. Long live TSL.
Again, my email address is jules.ismail@gmail.com you can send direct any questions for me there to ensure I receive them.
Yes, using Tube as gateway is great!
Hopefully videos will have some kind of catchy ways in bringing viewers in!
Quote from: koko_99_2001 on March 06, 2010, 05:12:28 PM
So, while Erik and I were at the marriage retreat this weekend, we were talking to this one guy who's niece is a speech path like me, and the niece's wife who does programming (like Erik). Anyway, as we were talking, he said his nephew-in-law :P worked for places like Sony and Activision. :o :o :o
After explaining TSL's situation, I asked his nephew's name. Turns out he was contracted out to Activision and has no influence...oh well. I tried :P
Small world, huh?
Well, to this you spoke to, he might know others as well who aren't dealing with those companies!
Meetings such as these aren't accident!
I don't know if you guys knew of this news article from Spain about Activision closing down TSL:
http://www.meristation.com/v3/des_noticia.php?id=cw4b8c232720e36&pic=GEN
The comments are all on our side :)
And another one in Spanish for the list:
http://www.vandal.net/noticia/45101/activision-fuerza-el-cese-de-un-proyecto-fan-de-kings-quest/
Sorry for the triple posting, but I've made another video to try to help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOqdKKVTO3E
Quote from: koko_99_2001 on March 06, 2010, 06:13:41 PM
No, I didn't meet the nephew-in-law...I met with the uncle :P
Maybe his uncle will talk to the nephew (you did ask, didn't you?), and the nephew will then tell maybe someone at Activision at lunch, perhaps, and then....and then...
Meetings like these aren't chance, nor accidents. They are happening for a purpose, as other posters have said.
I did ask if I could possibly get a name. He said that his nephew hasn't worked there in a while. Plus, we WERE on a marriage retreat, so it's not like I was really focused on TSL at that time.
I know! Scandalous!
Although it's probably beating a dead horse, I signed the petition and distributed the petition throughout the Adventure Gaming community for them to sign. I'm sure the puppets running what used to be Sierra will disregard fans with talent to make a decent chapter in the saga of Daventry, and will come out with a crap King's Quest for Next Gen consoles that's essentially a platformer just like they did with Leisure Suit Larry and almost did with Space Quest. Well, at least I signed the petition and spread the word and got my two cents in with Activision. That's if they will actually take the time to read what we have to say.
An Extremely Old Time Sierra Fan,
Dave
Quote from: dmymu02 on March 07, 2010, 01:44:42 PM
Although it's probably beating a dead horse, I signed the petition and distributed the petition throughout the Adventure Gaming community for them to sign. I'm sure the puppets running what used to be Sierra will disregard fans with talent to make a decent chapter in the saga of Daventry, and will come out with a crap King's Quest for Next Gen consoles that's essentially a platformer just like they did with Leisure Suit Larry and almost did with Space Quest. Well, at least I signed the petition and spread the word and got my two cents in with Activision. That's if they will actually take the time to read what we have to say.
An Extremely Old Time Sierra Fan,
Dave
Oh dear lord! Bite your tongue! Just mentioning that horrible treatment of LSL is enough to send me into a fit of hail mary's! <<shudder>>
Thank you for your continued support of TSL. We may yet succeed... so remain hopeful. :)
Quote from: dmymu02 on March 07, 2010, 01:44:42 PM
Although it's probably beating a dead horse, I signed the petition and distributed the petition throughout the Adventure Gaming community for them to sign. I'm sure the puppets running what used to be Sierra will disregard fans with talent to make a decent chapter in the saga of Daventry, and will come out with a crap King's Quest for Next Gen consoles that's essentially a platformer just like they did with Leisure Suit Larry and almost did with Space Quest. Well, at least I signed the petition and spread the word and got my two cents in with Activision. That's if they will actually take the time to read what we have to say.
An Extremely Old Time Sierra Fan,
Dave
Remember. This happened before (well kinda) and we made it.
Don't lose hope.
Quote from: koko_99_2001 on March 07, 2010, 01:24:21 PM
I did ask if I could possibly get a name. He said that his nephew hasn't worked there in a while. Plus, we WERE on a marriage retreat, so it's not like I was really focused on TSL at that time.
I know! Scandalous!
Well, I a bit confuse here, when you met the uncle you did mention something like "Well I tried" in that post. Since this nephew has work in a while. Perhaps, there a slight chance this guy to join us!
To all other readers:
I just came from bigbluecup forum, to find out that Ken and Roberta Williams support fan made games. See this:
http://www.bigbluecup.com/yabb/index.php?topic=40255.msg532020#msg532020
Regards
What I mean is, we spent several minutes talking to the uncle. And I did try to get a name. The uncle mentioned a couple times that the nephew had been a contract worker. I wasn't going to push him for a name, when he had twice told us the same thing in response to the question.
Hey! Some letters will be going out soon, vectored not just to PR but also some of the other departments at Blizzard/Activision. But, eh, that's not news. We came up with another idea!
Is anyone reading this a shareholder with the Activision complex? We need to start a shareholder's motion for the next shareholders' meeting. It likely wouldn't get passed, but that's not its purpose: a whole lot more shareholders than Activision realizes will recognize the "Kings Quest" trademark/series. Think about it. The youngest of us are just moving in as wage earners/spenders, the vast majority of us have been in that sector for years, and most of the older of us are investors. While lots of shareholders are too lazy to read their prospectus booklets, the people whom we want to make aware of this are just the type who WOULD read. If we get a shareholder's motion going in favor of reclaiming a license for Phoenix Online Studios, or at least in favor of securing them as Subject Matter Experts and consultants/contractors if Blizzard/Activision is trying to revive KQ itself (8 years of working with this material is about three times as long as most R&D sections get to research a sequel--they'd be stupid to reject such a resource), then even a failed motion will garner about 1000 more petition-signers and maybe 300 more letter-writers.
A PASSED motion... well, you understand.
So, what do you say? Are you a shareholder? Are you willing to try this?
I suggest we try to get this forum and the petition on every large interactive newsite available, i.e. Fark and its kind.
I know this project will get the support it needs if only we can get the word out. KQ has hundreds of thousands of fans out there.
This is doable!
I've signed the petition but I don't see how that will help if activision just ignores it and they probably will. A massive strike on Activision products or something else that will hurt their business will catch their attention and make them reconsider. That's what we should be organizing.
Quote from: CageyJay on March 08, 2010, 08:24:10 AM
Hey! Some letters will be going out soon, vectored not just to PR but also some of the other departments at Blizzard/Activision. But, eh, that's not news. We came up with another idea!
Is anyone reading this a shareholder with the Activision complex? We need to start a shareholder's motion for the next shareholders' meeting. It likely wouldn't get passed, but that's not its purpose: a whole lot more shareholders than Activision realizes will recognize the "Kings Quest" trademark/series. Think about it. The youngest of us are just moving in as wage earners/spenders, the vast majority of us have been in that sector for years, and most of the older of us are investors. While lots of shareholders are too lazy to read their prospectus booklets, the people whom we want to make aware of this are just the type who WOULD read. If we get a shareholder's motion going in favor of reclaiming a license for Phoenix Online Studios, or at least in favor of securing them as Subject Matter Experts and consultants/contractors if Blizzard/Activision is trying to revive KQ itself (8 years of working with this material is about three times as long as most R&D sections get to research a sequel--they'd be stupid to reject such a resource), then even a failed motion will garner about 1000 more petition-signers and maybe 300 more letter-writers.
A PASSED motion... well, you understand.
So, what do you say? Are you a shareholder? Are you willing to try this?
THIS is BRILLIANT.
But no, I'm not a shareholder....
Quote
I just came from bigbluecup forum, to find out that Ken and Roberta Williams support fan made games.
Oh dear, I didn't know that my post there would get so much attention! What I wrote is true, but it's secondhand information. The direct source was something that Ken wrote on http://www.sierragamers.com, "the official website of Ken and Roberta Williams."
I highly recommend this site, especially this page (http://www.sierragamers.com/aspx/Blob2/BlobPage.aspx?msgid=669573), which contains his thoughts about aspiring game designers (he has a lot of encouragement for them), running Sierra, the difficult decision to sell the company (interesting quote: "Sierra didn't die, it was murdered"), and other topics. Here's the part I was referring to, which is from a section entitled "On Fan Projects":
"I love the idea of fans building games. Sierra could, if it wanted, grant some form of cheap license to the people building the games. Hopefully they'll consider this."
He wrote this after Sierra was sold, so he was referring to Vivendi.
Ok, I came to the site after some time and saw the letter and wasn't that much suprised. I didn't have time to read the 21 pages of this post BUT I only have one thing to say:
"Piracy was invented for a day like this..." :sneaky:
Now if only a good plumber could find a LEAK in the system...
Oh, and one more thing- no damsel in distress in KQ was saved as many times as TSL is being tried to get saved.
Quote from: Haseth on March 08, 2010, 02:11:03 PM
Oh, and one more thing- no damsel in distress in KQ was saved as many times as TSL is being tried to get saved.
Orly? Cassima: KQ5 and KQ6, saved twice; TSL: Vivendi and Activision, twice... sounds about the same to me. [come on, it's a KQ forum... I can't be the only one to see this...]
[quote author=Delling link=topic=8394.msg273015#msg273015
Orly? Cassima: KQ5 and KQ6, saved twice; TSL: Vivendi and Activision, twice... sounds about the same to me. [come on, it's a KQ forum... I can't be the only one to see this...]
[/quote]
Win: Delling
Quote from: RollingStone on March 08, 2010, 01:19:41 PMI highly recommend this site, especially this page (http://www.sierragamers.com/aspx/Blob2/BlobPage.aspx?msgid=669573), which contains his thoughts about aspiring game designers (he has a lot of encouragement for them), running Sierra, the difficult decision to sell the company (interesting quote: "Sierra didn't die, it was murdered"), and other topics.
This is great. I've never read this page before. It has a lot of interesting points of view that I always thought but couldn't formulate into words. It's time to be the next Sierra... :suffer:
This is BS. I'm going to join the fight...Everyone keep posting the below information so noobs to the thread don't have to dig for it...
The petition is at http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/savetsl
A sample letter to send to Activision and instructions for sending it can be found at http://www.tsl-game.com/f...um/index.php?topic=8406.0
The Save TSL website (currently a WIP) is at http://savetsl.co.cc/?cat=1
They don't Have to dig, just look at the first post.
Well, I've done all I know how to (At least legally. I may be pro with computers, but I ain't willing to hack anyone over all this and go to prison. Sorry mates xD), to assist in this situation. I'll check back frequently to see if there's anything more I can do.
Other than that, try not to think of all this quite as negatively as it may seem. TSL is not the first, and certainly won't be the last, fan-game that someone like Activision has tried to shut down.
Granted, many do get shut down but, those which are most dedicated, with the most dedicated fan base (Like TSL), rarely get shut down for good.
Basically, what everyone's been saying here, almost all of it is true. Petitions, fans, etc.. They don't seem to hold much weight at face value, sure. What you have to remember, however, is that a series like KQ, having a VAST fan-base, holds more weight than you might realize.
News sites, game forums, fan forums/sites.. You get enough people in support of this game being made and Activision would have no choice but to eventually come to an agreement with the TSL Team, in order to prevent so much negative publicity.
Just keep doing what you're doing and don't lose hope. The thing about an uphill battle is that every hit you take has the chance of knocking you back down to the bottom. But, as long as you keep climbing, you'll reach the top eventually.
Sendaiko, we don't want you to go to prison. We will look forward to your company here on the forum. I also want to thank you for you support for the team and the fans. You are correct, this is an uphill battle but nothing will knock us down from obtaining out goal. People join our movement everyday and we are doing everything possible to get the word out to the fans and to Activison. TSL will not die, the fans won't allow it. Activision will get a box filled with the distress of the fans for the project and filled with the love we have for the series.
Quote from: waltzdancing on March 08, 2010, 11:08:34 PM
Sendaiko, we don't want you to go to prison. We will look forward to your company here on the forum. I also want to thank you for you support for the team and the fans. You are correct, this is an uphill battle but nothing will knock us down from obtaining out goal. People join our movement everyday and we are doing everything possible to get the word out to the fans and to Activison. TSL will not die, the fans won't allow it. Activision will get a box filled with the distress of the fans for the project and filled with the love we have for the series.
I couldn't agree with this more. Everything that can be done will be done, I assure you. And for all the naysayers out there... just remember this has happened before... and TSL came out on top. It'll happen again, just you watch.
Quote from: CageyJay on March 08, 2010, 08:24:10 AM
Hey! Some letters will be going out soon, vectored not just to PR but also some of the other departments at Blizzard/Activision. But, eh, that's not news. We came up with another idea!
Is anyone reading this a shareholder with the Activision complex? We need to start a shareholder's motion for the next shareholders' meeting. It likely wouldn't get passed, but that's not its purpose: a whole lot more shareholders than Activision realizes will recognize the "Kings Quest" trademark/series. Think about it. The youngest of us are just moving in as wage earners/spenders, the vast majority of us have been in that sector for years, and most of the older of us are investors. While lots of shareholders are too lazy to read their prospectus booklets, the people whom we want to make aware of this are just the type who WOULD read. If we get a shareholder's motion going in favor of reclaiming a license for Phoenix Online Studios, or at least in favor of securing them as Subject Matter Experts and consultants/contractors if Blizzard/Activision is trying to revive KQ itself (8 years of working with this material is about three times as long as most R&D sections get to research a sequel--they'd be stupid to reject such a resource), then even a failed motion will garner about 1000 more petition-signers and maybe 300 more letter-writers.
A PASSED motion... well, you understand.
So, what do you say? Are you a shareholder? Are you willing to try this?
Woa! That's one of the best suggestion!
Perhaps such message should be in all gamers magazines especially those that carries corporates stories and finances so shareholders can consider! At that point this will force activision to listen if not then face losse!
We might need someone having shareholder's mind so documents be proof read however!
Gift the source to someone on their death-bed who then releases it publicly.
That sounds like a good idea Johnny but the team would take heat for it since it would be obvious to Activision that the team in fact released the game to this person. They would then be sued. Assuming that no one could possibly go to prison by releasing the game, another idea would be to just release the game anyway and have the fans pay for it. This would be possible only if the money collected could cover the cost of Activision suing. Then again Johnny, such person on their death bed could be a member of the team who acted independently of the teams wishes :)
you know that thought crosses my mind when I was getting my hair cut this morning. Why not have activision release it. I mean the game is completed and they love doing sequels so... was that option brought up during the negotiations? I would be willing to pay big bucks for this game. Good grief we need to know what went wrong with them talking to each other.
Quote from: liggy002 on March 09, 2010, 02:46:34 PM
That sounds like a good idea Johnny but the team would take heat for it since it would be obvious to Activision that the team in fact released the game to this person. They would then be sued. Assuming that no one could possibly go to prison by releasing the game, another idea would be to just release the game anyway and have the fans pay for it. This would be possible only if the money collected could cover the cost of Activision suing. Then again Johnny, such person on their death bed could be a member of the team who acted independently of the teams wishes :)
So far we don't know what activision't intention with KQ series!
If suggestion towards shareholders be implemented, voices of shareholders are usually the ones who decides! If those investors don't like what they're hearning, activision have to face looses until they reconsider!
If we consider the following:
http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8406.msg273196#msg273196
Will be one way in getting shareholders attention!
I would strongly advise against the shareholder idea at this time. If for no other reason such an action might have long-ranging effects on Phoenix's ability to negotiate with Activision if we are successful at convincing Activision to renegotiate.
Getting shareholders involved is a point of no return and therefore it is my humble opinion it only be considered as an option of last resort. I'll say no more on this topic... but I strongly encourage waiting before implementing this. The last thing we want is to make renegotiation impossible due to shareholders doing something that would reflect badly on us and Phoenix.
Quote from: oberonqa on March 09, 2010, 11:09:56 PM
I would strongly advise against the shareholder idea at this time. If for no other reason such an action might have long-ranging effects on Phoenix's ability to negotiate with Activision if we are successful at convincing Activision to renegotiate.
Getting shareholders involved is a point of no return and therefore it is my humble opinion it only be considered as an option of last resort. I'll say no more on this topic... but I strongly encourage waiting before implementing this. The last thing we want is to make renegotiation impossible due to shareholders doing something that would reflect badly on us and Phoenix.
Yes, I understand that should be impleted if activsion doesn't cooporate that is!
Exactly
Quote from: oberonqa on March 09, 2010, 11:09:56 PM
I would strongly advise against the shareholder idea at this time. If for no other reason such an action might have long-ranging effects on Phoenix's ability to negotiate with Activision if we are successful at convincing Activision to renegotiate.
Getting shareholders involved is a point of no return and therefore it is my humble opinion it only be considered as an option of last resort. I'll say no more on this topic... but I strongly encourage waiting before implementing this. The last thing we want is to make renegotiation impossible due to shareholders doing something that would reflect badly on us and Phoenix.
Activision is like negotiating with the devil. You bow down to them, and they got you. Why would you WANT to negotiate with them? Do the shareholder thing. Heck with Activision. Their a bunch of idiots, that wouldn't know a good game, if it slapped them in the face.
Quote from: Tj on March 10, 2010, 10:33:10 AM
Activision is like negotiating with the devil. You bow down to them, and they got you. Why would you WANT to negotiate with them? Do the shareholder thing. Heck with Activision. Their a bunch of idiots, that wouldn't know a good game, if it slapped them in the face.
True but as KQVI has shown, the devil/lord of the underworld ca be reasonable if you get through all the obstacles and succeed in their challenge. Anyone have a Magic Mirror to make Activision cry?
Quote from: mateo360 on March 10, 2010, 10:50:52 AM
Anyone have a Magic Mirror to make Activision cry?
I believe that would be our King's Quest Memories thread, which will be included with the package that includes all the physical petition letters and a printout of all the online petition letters.
http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8427.0
That is what the memories are suppose to do. They are meant to touch the hearts of those who read it and hopefully they will see how much we as fans adore Kings Quest and how it has impacted us as a community
Quote from: Tj on March 10, 2010, 10:33:10 AM
Quote from: oberonqa on March 09, 2010, 11:09:56 PM
I would strongly advise against the shareholder idea at this time. If for no other reason such an action might have long-ranging effects on Phoenix's ability to negotiate with Activision if we are successful at convincing Activision to renegotiate.
Getting shareholders involved is a point of no return and therefore it is my humble opinion it only be considered as an option of last resort. I'll say no more on this topic... but I strongly encourage waiting before implementing this. The last thing we want is to make renegotiation impossible due to shareholders doing something that would reflect badly on us and Phoenix.
Activision is like negotiating with the devil. You bow down to them, and they got you. Why would you WANT to negotiate with them? Do the shareholder thing. Heck with Activision. Their a bunch of idiots, that wouldn't know a good game, if it slapped them in the face.
Well, you said, "Why would we negotiate with them?"
Same question would have been applicable towards "Virendi", after persistance we did manage to convince them did we?
Therefore, the following facebook group, "activision assist" facebook group seems on our side:
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=173789739310&topic=15415
They even provided an address contacting them? Let's make use of that!
If all avenues doesn't lead anywhere then shareholder thing will be the next step!
Quote
Well, you said, "Why would we negotiate with them?"
Same question would have been applicable towards "Virendi", after persistance we did manage to convince them did we?
Therefore, the following facebook group, "activision assist" facebook group seems on our side:
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=173789739310&topic=15415
They even provided an address contacting them? Let's make use of that!
If all avenues doesn't lead anywhere then shareholder thing will be the next step!
We are making use of that
http://savetsl.co.cc
it feels weird typing that link so much in the same thread.
That is just a reminder. Keep spreading the word. haha I feel like a spammer posting this so much but ya know.
Send in the offline petition and do the email also. Those are the two that (IMO) are most important. But you may as well sign the online one too.
Spread the word about the email and offline petition. Hey, Cat, how many signatures did you get in 2005 when dealing with vivindi?
Yes definitely sign the online one. We are using that as a baseline indicator of how successful we are at getting the word out. The offline petition is very important as well, but since it only takes 2 minutes (max) to sign the online petition, I encourage people to sign it.
As I have pointed out before, the online petition is strengthened by the offline petition and vice versa. Alone, neither petition has much strength... but together, they bolster each other's strengths while downplaying the weakness's.
Also, take part in the TSL Demographics Survey I just posted. From a business perspective, demographic data is essential when it comes to game development. Identifying the target audience often is the vital step in a game developers pitch to publishers.
http://www.esurveyspro.com/Survey.aspx?id=c18124e2-bb26-4626-a0d7-e5a8d0621065
Thanks oberonqa! I've now updated the first post with a link to the survey.
Quote from: Erpy on March 01, 2010, 05:02:18 AM
To the folks suggesting a leak...last time I heard, Contract Breach is still an offense most companies take seriously. (a lot more seriously than copyright infringement) I personally would never ask another person to open himself up to litigation just for my own personal enjoyment.
As for changes, this one came up a few years ago as well. Seeing that TSL was a game purposely modelled after the KQ franchise, it's not so easy as changing a few names. Not to mention the fact that since Activision already owns TSL in a legal sense, continuing the game without their consent (with or without references to existing IP) would be near impossible without redoing stuff from scratch.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashum.jpg)
Well about activision owning TSL in a legal sense, I'm not so sure about that. They issue a stop order but what right do they have in stoping TSL in creating own games? They want such rights then it be at their adventage to revoke "Cease and Desist"!
Regarding survey, I hope we get to know results?
Quote from: splat44 on March 12, 2010, 04:45:23 AM
Regarding survey, I hope we get to know results?
Sure. Apparently, that website can export the data to Excel. Once we get a decent amount, I can aggregate it into a few graphs & pie charts for you guys to see too. :)
QuoteWell about activision owning TSL in a legal sense, I'm not so sure about that. They issue a stop order but what right do they have in stoping TSL in creating own games?
That wasn't really what I was saying. They can't stop POS from creating their own game from scratch, but the contract would definitely prevent them from using resources that were made for TSL specifically.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashshp.jpg)
Yea the survey site gives me a detailed report of the survey results. I have to manually enter the results into excel (the site wants to charge for the ability to automatically export), but it's a piece of cake to enter the results data into Excel (especially since I've already got the legwork in Excel done).
Once I get a decent sample I'll look into sharing it.
Hey guys! I just had the GREATEST IDEA!
You can just change the names of characters/pictures so you're not using copyrighted material!
WAIT! Hear me out on this one!
Obviously, there's no saving Graham. He's got to go. I think the easiest way to deal with that is to switch the game from 3rd person to first person. IIRC, the engine you're using for it is natively for first person shooters anyway, so it should be an easy fix. Already you're on the way, who can claim its a King's Quest game if its first person?
Secondly, you'd have to change the images of al the other KQ-related characters. I understand that you really don't have time to come up with unique personalities and pictures for every single character in the series again after 8 years, so here's my proposal. Replace them all with pumpkins. That's right. Pumpkins. One single image, of different sizes and placements, in 32bit true color graphic glory. Pumpkins, pumpkins, everywhere! Talking pumpkins! inanimate pumpkins! Inventory pumpkins! Evil wizard pumpkins! You only ever had to draw one model!
Penultimately, you're gonna have to change the plot a bit, so that it doesn't so clearly derive from King's Quest IP. So the black cloak society has got to go. But from that point on, the new plot basically fixes itself. Why did evil pumpkin wizards attack the castle? Where did these hordes and hordes of talking gourdes come from anyway? Well, that's quite obvious. From the garden of talking plants on the Isle of Won... on Sleepy Isle! And Check, the great pumpkin king, (changed from Blanche/Queen for IP reasons) in ire after losing his beloved... easter egg... sent his minions to attack the kingdom because if he can't have easter, no one can!
The purpose of the game is for Grah, er, the player, to travel about the kingdom, destroying the endless legion of pumpkin pirates, violent vegetables, and jaded jack-o-lanterns, turning them into a muddled mass of gory gourdes.
Finally, the name of the game has to change. So instead of TSL, it'll be called Smashing Pumpkins into Small Piles of Putrid Debris, or SPISPOPD.
Oh... wait...
Quote from: threej_lc on March 12, 2010, 01:52:02 PM
Hey guys! I just had the GREATEST IDEA!
You can just change the names of characters/pictures so you're not using copyrighted material!
WAIT! Hear me out on this one!
Obviously, there's no saving Graham. He's got to go. I think the easiest way to deal with that is to switch the game from 3rd person to first person. IIRC, the engine you're using for it is natively for first person shooters anyway, so it should be an easy fix. Already you're on the way, who can claim its a King's Quest game if its first person?
Secondly, you'd have to change the images of al the other KQ-related characters. I understand that you really don't have time to come up with unique personalities and pictures for every single character in the series again after 8 years, so here's my proposal. Replace them all with pumpkins. That's right. Pumpkins. One single image, of different sizes and placements, in 32bit true color graphic glory. Pumpkins, pumpkins, everywhere! Talking pumpkins! inanimate pumpkins! Inventory pumpkins! Evil wizard pumpkins! You only ever had to draw one model!
Penultimately, you're gonna have to change the plot a bit, so that it doesn't so clearly derive from King's Quest IP. So the black cloak society has got to go. But from that point on, the new plot basically fixes itself. Why did evil pumpkin wizards attack the castle? Where did these hordes and hordes of talking gourdes come from anyway? Well, that's quite obvious. From the garden of talking plants on the Isle of Won... on Sleepy Isle! And Check, the great pumpkin king, (changed from Blanche/Queen for IP reasons) in ire after losing his beloved... easter egg... sent his minions to attack the kingdom because if he can't have easter, no one can!
The purpose of the game is for Grah, er, the player, to travel about the kingdom, destroying the endless legion of pumpkin pirates, violent vegetables, and jaded jack-o-lanterns, turning them into a muddled mass of gory gourdes.
Finally, the name of the game has to change. So instead of TSL, it'll be called Smashing Pumpkins into Small Piles of Putrid Debris, or SPISPOPD.
Oh... wait...
THat is GENIUS!!
hahahah
nice one man.
They would also have to throw out all the locations... since a goodly number of them are 3D representations of prior KQ locations...
But more importantly though, what would be left of TSL if you remove all the KQ references? It would be like tearing down a fully built and furnished house, leaving behind the land the house was built on and a bunch of refuse littering the land.
KQ is engraved into each and every facet of TSL. We're not talking about just the characters and the storyline. If it was indeed as simple as that, it wouldn't be an issue. Change the names of the characters and change the storyline a bit and there you go.
However, the building blocks that make up TSL are KQ. Remove those building blocks and your left with a husk. Oh sure the husk would be in the shape of a game... but the blood, organs, muscles, and soul wouldn't be there. It'd be an empty husk that would need to be filled up again.
Basically... taking the tech demo from 2006 as a point of discussion (since thats all I have seen)... remove the KQ elements and your left with a user interface and music score. Everything else would be gone. There would be no rooms, no puzzles, no characters, no story. Just a blank screen with a user interface playing music in the background.
Not a problem! New assets could be created. A new story could be written. Very true and indeed that is a possible course of action for POS. However, at that point, they would be creating an entirely new game. There wouldn't be much application for the assets they had already created, since the assets they have created are too deeply ingrained in KQ.
To put it another way, take a look at Super Mario Bros 3 from the Nintendo (NES) console. Just about everyone I know has seen or played this game. Close your eyes and imagine seeing a screenshot of that game. It's a nice screenshot, with Mario jumping on a Goomba in a colorful world. You have the status bar on the bottom of the screen that shows how many lives you have, how many coins you have collected, the world/level number, and your score.
Now erase everything on that screenshot except for the status bar.
That is what removing the KQ elements from TSL would do.
Hi everyone,
So, I've been watching this website since I was like, 14 or 15 years old. I've seen it go through all this rubbish before, and I think all of us can fight it again. I hate it when big, corporate sores like Activision throw their weight around when it's obvious they aren't going to supply their customers with what they want anyway.
Kings Quest fangame? No no, of course not! What's in our new game lineup? Eh... a first-person shooter.
*bangs their heads repeatedly against something heavy and preferably crafted from fine steel or titanium*
WAKE UP ACTIVISION! Either give us what we want or shut up about it! I could understand it if they offered to buy the game from all of you for an insane amount of money. That would be justice. But apparently we need to show them once again how strong this community is once again.
Again, I've been inactive for a while, but I've always supported this game and I've already done what I could once. I'll do it again and spread the word as far as I can. After all, the worst thing they can possibly do is be total jerks about it and ignore us. Ooh.. scary.
I just want to clarify something that I've been reading here about the Chrono Trigger fan game that was brought up a couple of times.
There are two different fan games that have been in the limelight due to Squenix C&Ds. The first was a complete graphical overhaul called "Chrono Trigger Resurrection" which was simply going to be a retelling of the same story with better graphics and the second was a ROM hack called "Crimson Echoes" that served as a fan sequel (or a midquel between Trigger and Cross). The latter was 98% into completion when Squenix pulled the plug on the project. Please don't confuse the two. :/
I've been following the progress of TSL on and off since its conception. Most of my disappointment comes from Activision's dick move but the other part of my disappointment comes from the length of time that POS took to work on the game. When POS received the fan license, an unspoken race against the clock had started. The one-sided, unfair nature of the licensing agreement should have made that very clear - the project was subject to the scrutiny of the copyright holders and they had the rights to shut you down at any time for any reason if they so wanted. That meant that the sooner you completed the work, the better chances of the game surviving. At least long enough to have seen the first game publicly released. It was just unfortunate and sad that the team failed to beat the invisible clock.
It was also naive if (if this was indeed the case) you believed that the fan license was indefinite. In this day and age, companies are constantly merging and being swallowed up, I am surprised if no one anticipated the possibility of this happening in the years that was spent developing the game. The thought of that should have lit a hellfire under the bottoms of the development team.
Quote from: Naruru on March 12, 2010, 05:36:54 PM
It was also naive if (if this was indeed the case) you believed that the fan license was indefinite. In this day and age, companies are constantly merging and being swallowed up, I am surprised if no one anticipated the possibility of this happening in the years that was spent developing the game. The thought of that should have lit a hellfire under the bottoms of the development team.
I believe the reason for the long development cycle has been mostly due to the development teams desire for perfection. To create something truly memorable. To create something that wasn't just a fan tribute... but something that could join the other entries in the King's Quest series has a work of art... timeless.
A lofty goal? Perhaps. Idle fancy of a hopeless romantic? Most definitely. But let me tell you this. The development team's passion for their project is beyond reproach. They can be criticized and ridiculed for taking 8 years to develop this game, but that very criticism and ridicule has only spurned them to put forth their very best.
Gaming society has grown complacent due to game companies cranking out varying degree's of garbage. What ever happened to expecting quality in the games we play? Quality takes time, but it seems that gamers have adopted the same busy-bee attitude that our society as a whole has embraced. The people at POS chose to focus on quality. The product they were preparing to release was the result of 8 years of dedication to quality. They probably could have released the game in 2007 if they wanted to. But would it have been a quality product? Would it have been able to withstand the test of time and become something timeless? More importantly, would it have even been remembered at all if it had been rushed out the door in an attempt to beat an invisible clock?
Game companies should take a note out of POS's playbook as far as I'm concerned. Quality is always better than quantity. And if your making a quality product, people will wait.
Quote from: threej_lc on March 12, 2010, 01:52:02 PM
Hey guys! I just had the GREATEST IDEA!
You can just change the names of characters/pictures so you're not using copyrighted material!
WAIT! Hear me out on this one!
Obviously, there's no saving Graham. He's got to go. I think the easiest way to deal with that is to switch the game from 3rd person to first person. IIRC, the engine you're using for it is natively for first person shooters anyway, so it should be an easy fix. Already you're on the way, who can claim its a King's Quest game if its first person?
Secondly, you'd have to change the images of al the other KQ-related characters. I understand that you really don't have time to come up with unique personalities and pictures for every single character in the series again after 8 years, so here's my proposal. Replace them all with pumpkins. That's right. Pumpkins. One single image, of different sizes and placements, in 32bit true color graphic glory. Pumpkins, pumpkins, everywhere! Talking pumpkins! inanimate pumpkins! Inventory pumpkins! Evil wizard pumpkins! You only ever had to draw one model!
Penultimately, you're gonna have to change the plot a bit, so that it doesn't so clearly derive from King's Quest IP. So the black cloak society has got to go. But from that point on, the new plot basically fixes itself. Why did evil pumpkin wizards attack the castle? Where did these hordes and hordes of talking gourdes come from anyway? Well, that's quite obvious. From the garden of talking plants on the Isle of Won... on Sleepy Isle! And Check, the great pumpkin king, (changed from Blanche/Queen for IP reasons) in ire after losing his beloved... easter egg... sent his minions to attack the kingdom because if he can't have easter, no one can!
The purpose of the game is for Grah, er, the player, to travel about the kingdom, destroying the endless legion of pumpkin pirates, violent vegetables, and jaded jack-o-lanterns, turning them into a muddled mass of gory gourdes.
Finally, the name of the game has to change. So instead of TSL, it'll be called Smashing Pumpkins into Small Piles of Putrid Debris, or SPISPOPD.
Oh... wait...
Yes, that's exactly what should have been done long ago!
If we take following thread between Erpy and I:
Quote from: Erpy on March 12, 2010, 06:20:08 AM
QuoteWell about activision owning TSL in a legal sense, I'm not so sure about that. They issue a stop order but what right do they have in stoping TSL in creating own games?
That wasn't really what I was saying. They can't stop POS from creating their own game from scratch, but the contract would definitely prevent them from using resources that were made for TSL specifically.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashshp.jpg)
We all know "Cease and Desist" only deal the product!
About contract that prevent from using resources made for TSL, I am not so sure about this neither!
By taking threej_lc suggestion is great of course!
Except for changing TSL that is!
POS can suggest members at TSL to create own graphics and ect...
Perhaps, forum admin can creat special groups that would be shared among those who do the works.
Yes, I mean keep that information out activision eyes that is.
Hopefuly this can be done!
By the way, oberonga, I am looking forward to see those datas!
Quote from: oberonqa on March 12, 2010, 03:30:11 PM
Remove those building blocks and your left with a husk. Oh sure the husk would be in the shape of a game... but the blood, organs, muscles, and soul wouldn't be there. It'd be an empty husk that would need to be filled up again.
What do you mean they wouldn't be there? They'd be oozing all over the ground right where you smashed them into a million pieces!
But seriously folks,
A few of you took my comments about SPISPOPD WAY too seriously. I don't actually think the change IP option is feasible for TSL. My previous post was merely a play on an ancient internet meme about Doom.
For more information, check out http://www.trilobite.org/spispopd/
Maybe I'm gettin a bit hot under the collar.
The next f'tard (ed. find a discriminatory definition and i'll pull the word) that suggests the game must immediately be leaked to satisfy their personal search for free software should be locked in a trunk and deep sixed.
As to the TOTALY RETARDED IDIOTS that think it is easy to replace all the visual elements in the game as well as all of the text references. I would suggest get a life ... but actually ... go stuff yourselves.
Cheap and sleazy is not what the developers have been working on for 8 years ... yes that is more years than you can remember.
Bloody juvenile idiot brats... I remember when King's Quest was originally released and demonstrated on IBM pc's and pc junior's.
You have no respect for what is being done here. You are completely clueless as to what the introduction of an actual GUI meant to computer games.
For the members of POS all my respect to you!
Animan
edited due to complaint from member unable to deal with a few harsh words. BTW You appear to be unaware that discriminatory slurs by definition refer to a person's religion, sexual preference or race. None of those areas were infringed upon by my statements. Idiocy (thankfully) is not a protected state of being and may be called out by anyone at any time.
Again, an apology to those unable to deal with harsh words. I honestly don't know what you will do when you go out into the real world, but best of luck with it.
Quote from: threej_lc on March 12, 2010, 08:21:02 PMWhat do you mean they wouldn't be there? They'd be oozing all over the ground right where you smashed them into a million pieces!
But seriously folks,
A few of you took my comments about SPISPOPD WAY too seriously. I don't actually think the change IP option is feasible for TSL. My previous post was merely a play on an ancient internet meme about Doom.
For more information, check out http://www.trilobite.org/spispopd/
I can't really blame some people for not being able to catch sarcasm in script rather than verse. I thought the pumpkin stuff was classic though. :suffer:
I think the lesson taught today is for everyone to lighten up. I've done my fair share of explaining why it's not easy to simply rename things here, change colors there, etc. I think we all need to take a deep breath and to remember that we're all here for the same reason. We all want to see TSL come to fruition. Some people just express it in other ways... The best choice as someone who has the whole picture rather than those who just popped in from an article posted somewhere on the interwebs is to just enjoy life and not let these things get to you so much. :) I'm sure the POS team won't be swayed to do things in a sloppish or pirate-like way.
Quote from: Animan on March 12, 2010, 11:59:08 PM
Maybe I'm gettin a bit hot under the collar.
The next f'tard that suggests the game must immediately be leaked to satisfy their personal search for free software should be locked in a trunk and deep sixed.
As to the TOTALY RETARDED IDIOTS that think it is easy to replace all the visual elements in the game as well as all of the text references. I would suggest get a life ... but actually ... go stuff yourselves.
Cheap and sleazy is not what the developers have been working on for 8 years ... yes that is more years than you can remember.
Bloody juvenile idiot brats... I remember when King's Quest was originally released and demonstrated on IBM pc's and pc junior's.
You have no respect for what is being done here. You are completely clueless as to what the introduction of an actual GUI meant to computer games.
For the members of POS all my respect to you!
Animan
Well you're questiong idior brats!
Read what Activision's CEO is saying in public by taking the fun out computer game making:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6226758.html?tag=latestheadlines;title;1
There no one here are more idiot than Activision's CEO and such guy need to be fire on spot!
Quote from: Animan on March 12, 2010, 11:59:08 PM
The next f'tard that suggests the game must immediately be leaked to satisfy their personal search for free software should be locked in a trunk and deep sixed.
As to the TOTALY RETARDED IDIOTS that think it is easy to replace all the visual elements in the game as well as all of the text references. I would suggest get a life ... but actually ... go stuff yourselves.
We appreciate your support, and I can understand your frustration. However, you need to read the TSL Forum Rules (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=6199.0) again, especially #3: "No discriminatory slurs of any kind will be tolerated." I think that includes calling people "f'tards" and "retarded idiots," so please try to be a little more civil. Thank you.
Update:
I don't know where you got your definition of the term "discriminatory slur," but I Googled it and this (http://books.google.com/books?id=_e5hP9IqYLcC&pg=PA78&lpg=PA78&dq=discriminatory+slur&source=bl&ots=xigdqHKIKR&sig=CeBC37Jp4ajzbyFKmBHfH-kcxqM&hl=en&ei=qZGmS_fiIISdlgfflrx0&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CBMQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=discriminatory%20slur&f=false) is the closest thing to an official definition that I found. It's from page 78 of a book called "A Legal and Ethical Handbook for Ending Discrimination in the Workplace" by David A. Robinson. The section entitled "Have a Written Policy Prohibiting Discriminatory Slurs and Discriminatory Harassment, and Distribute It to All Employees" begins: "It is a good idea for employers to have a written policy distributed to employees that prohibits harassment, slurs, and other adverse behavior based on race, color, national origin, ancestry, sex, sexual orientation, pregnancy, age, religion, and
disability" (emphasis mine). Mental retardation is a disability. So I am far,
far from the only one who agrees that the use of the word "retarded" or "retard" or an obvious variation such as "f'tard" to mean "stupid" or "stupid person" constitutes a discriminatory slur. The fact that you think I'm making this up myself makes me wonder if
you have ever gone "out into the real world." There's a big difference between words that are merely "harsh" and words that are offensive.
But you clearly just don't get what I was talking about, so I don't want to argue about it anymore.
Heads up folks:
There is a new article up on the net, this one featuring an interview with Phoenix Online Studios. Be sure to check it out, as it has some great insight from the dev team about the current situation.
http://www.shdon.com/blog/2010/03/14/the-silver-lining-followup-an-interview-with-the-team
I've now updated the first post. Thanks again for interviewing us, Steven Don. :)
Ya! I've seen this on facebook.
At least a chance in reworking the project in being put into consideration!
Great interview!
Huh... what perplexes me is that Vivendi asked the team to intervene at one point... do they know nothing of fanbases? You can't really control them... only appease them. ;P
Heh, exactly. That's why to this day, I still think it wasn't the team alone who managed to convince Vivendi to reconsider. The fans certainly played their part in it as well. 8)
While I have been doing emailing writing, petition signing and all that...my husband who's never heard of or played King's Quest signed the petition and has been emailing Activision. He's writing original letters too. He's either big on justice/fairness or just loves me that much. ;D
A lot of people here have been suggesting an Activision boycott, and some have announced their own personal boycotts. (I am too, but I rarely buy anything from them anyway.) Those of you running the forum seem to be skeptical about them because you know how obsessed people are with Activision's bestsellers. You are probably right that not many people are going to be persuaded to give THEM up (although it never hurts to try) but Activision owns more than 200 games. And since the company also owns so many smaller game companies, most of the people who buy them probably aren't even aware that Activision owns the games. I can post a list of them here if no one minds the length.
I'm also wondering if you think that a boycott would be inconsistent with the fact that Activision owns what is left of King's Quest, as well as the idea emphasized in the template letter that Activision could make money as a result of revived interest in the games. I don't think it would be counterproductive as long as we emphasized the point that although we are boycotting them as long as the C&D is in effect, we will happily buy from them if it is lifted. For example, I added the following paragraph to my letter:
"I would also like to inform you that as long as the Cease and Desist order is in effect, I will not be buying anything from Activision, and I am advising others not to do so either. However, if the ban is lifted, I will be glad to buy and recommend your products, especially all things King's Quest-related."
So far, we've been relying on persuasion, but I'm afraid it may take more than that to melt the heart of a giant corporation that only cares about money.
So, the question remains...if TSL were to be reworked, which could easily add 2 years or so onto the development cycle, would it still be free?
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
Quote from: RollingStone on March 14, 2010, 11:38:27 AM
A lot of people here have been suggesting an Activision boycott, and some have announced their own personal boycotts. (I am too, but I rarely buy anything from them anyway.) Those of you running the forum seem to be skeptical about them because you know how obsessed people are with Activision's bestsellers. You are probably right that not many people are going to be persuaded to give THEM up (although it never hurts to try) but Activision owns more than 200 games. And since the company also owns so many smaller game companies, most of the people who buy them probably aren't even aware that Activision owns the games. I can post a list of them here if no one minds the length.
I'm also wondering if you think that a boycott would be inconsistent with the fact that Activision owns what is left of King's Quest, as well as the idea emphasized in the template letter that Activision could make money as a result of revived interest in the games. I don't think it would be counterproductive as long as we emphasized the point that although we are boycotting them as long as the C&D is in effect, we will happily buy from them if it is lifted. For example, I added the following paragraph to my letter:
"I would also like to inform you that as long as the Cease and Desist order is in effect, I will not be buying anything from Activision, and I am advising others not to do so either. However, if the ban is lifted, I will be glad to buy and recommend your products, especially all things King's Quest-related."
So far, we've been relying on persuasion, but I'm afraid it may take more than that to melt the heart of a giant corporation that only cares about money.
I'm not keen on a boycott because a boycott hurts a lot more people than just Activision. If you boycott Activision, that results in lost revenue for any store (be it online or brick-and-morter) that happens to carry an Activision product.
I will not support or endorse any action that could potentially create collateral damage like that. Brick and morter stores are having enough trouble thanks to the economy without us adding fuel to the fire.
Yeah, and boycotts are more likely to hurt the code monkeys at Activision instead of the higher ups at Activision. The most we can do is just keep spreading the word and contacting Activision.
There are a few more interviews in the pipeline, but since the boycott question hasn't come up yet (and most likely won't), I'll answer it here:
Like oberonqa said, a boycott actually ends up hurting more people than Activision itself. It hurts the retailer/distributer stocking the game, the developer not employed by Activision relying on royalties, the sales of a completely unrelated product who were unfortunate to release during all this, etc. It's unfair and possibly even illegal for us to advocate something like that. I also don't even know how much of a financial impact it would have from our fans that don't generally buy their products anyway.
If people still choose to boycott Activision products as individuals, that's entirely their right and their decision. However, there are certainly more effective ways of making a point than resorting to that.
I'm reposting this as the rest of the forums were taken down due to the unfortunate situation with TSL.
As you all may or may not know, I have done most of the of the music for TSL and have spent years to make the music sound incredible and memorable while fitting in with the spirit of the game. While working on this game I also spent time doing a side project which was to release my own album without a game attached to it.
It's a personal album called Evening Light and it's full of heart and soul with Piano, Guitar, Drums, Bass, and some pad/landscape type sounds to capture what one might experience when looking at a memorizing sunset.
You can hear the album on CDBABY here: www.cdbaby.com/cd/austinhaynes or on iTunes by searching my name Austin Haynes.
Many have enjoyed the album very much so I hope that you will too.
Best Regards,
Austin Haynes
TSL Main Composer
Thanks Austin, I've always loved your music. :)
That's a fair point with the boycott and I agree with you now that I think about it. That being said, it should also be illegal and is highly unfair what Activision has done to the team- making you waste 8 years of your precious time. Anyway you slice it, a massive boycott would hurt the higher ups as well but there are several problems with that as has been stated. I really hope that the petition has the proper effect. If the petition or every other valid method didn't work, not much could be done except the right thing- I won't speak of it but its that tempting action that may or may not be in your minds. ;D
(Posted on: March 15, 2010, 03:31:18 PM)
Also, this whole situation doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. Why not just sell you the license to the game? Many people would pay for this game (maybe even more than its worth). Seriously, Activision only stands to profit if they do so. Why just kill the game with cease and desist when there is money to be made? It's only logical- Activision gets what they want and we get what we want. Make them an offer they can't refuse that doesn't involve any silenced pistols. Get some one really rich who will pay a larger than average then sum those greedy gremlins won't refuse. Hellllooooo- Mc Fly!
Austin -- I am not a mod but you should repost that in off topic.
And another reminder, check the website, I just updated it earlier today.
Yes, you are right. The last time I checked, there wasn't an off topic thread in fact there were no threads available!
I'm thinking because you're looking as a guest, it won't show up. But if you log in under your account, you should be able to see the Off-Topic forum.
Perhaps so. I posted it in the off topic section now.
The Off-Topic forum didn't exist a couple weeks ago. :P That's probably what Austin's referring to. I'm pretty sure Guests can view the other forums. They just can't post in them 'till they login.
Ahhh...ok. Didn't know what all the guests could and could not see :P
Okay, this is going to sound like a dumb question and maybe it has been answered already but, has Activision seen the demo produced by you guys as well as the trailer? or did you hand them the game? I am just curious, I mean, I was sold just by watching the trailer all those years ago and thought maybe the same type of magic would work here too. :D
I'm pretty sure they've seen it, since that's exactly the kind of material they wanted removed from our website.
Makes sense. Just curious.
The interview said that POS sent the first chapter to both Vivendi and Activision for review, so at some point, they had the chance to see it.
Hey everyone,
As someone who used to be pretty active in the TSL community a long time ago, I was really sorry to hear the news. I know how much work the devs put into the project and how much the fans were looking forward to playing it. I just hope that something can be salvaged from this, and I hope that the community keeps going in some way even if the project can't. Game or no game, this forum was a fun place to be.
Quote from: oberonqa on March 12, 2010, 06:07:33 PM
Quote from: Naruru on March 12, 2010, 05:36:54 PM
It was also naive if (if this was indeed the case) you believed that the fan license was indefinite. In this day and age, companies are constantly merging and being swallowed up, I am surprised if no one anticipated the possibility of this happening in the years that was spent developing the game. The thought of that should have lit a hellfire under the bottoms of the development team.
I believe the reason for the long development cycle has been mostly due to the development teams desire for perfection. To create something truly memorable. To create something that wasn't just a fan tribute... but something that could join the other entries in the King's Quest series has a work of art... timeless.
A lofty goal? Perhaps. Idle fancy of a hopeless romantic? Most definitely. But let me tell you this. The development team's passion for their project is beyond reproach...
...Would it have been able to withstand the test of time and become something timeless? More importantly, would it have even been remembered at all if it had been rushed out the door in an attempt to beat an invisible clock?
Game companies should take a note out of POS's playbook as far as I'm concerned. Quality is always better than quantity. And if your making a quality product, people will wait.
While I cannot deny the admirable ambitions of the project, PoS was not a game company, neither were they working within a timeframe of their own making. I have a notorious dislike of the newer games for the very reasons you cite, but I cannot help but remain grounded in reality. Especially in retrospect. For sure you can argue 'would it have been memorable' and so forth, but with the situation as it is, we now have a memorable game that only the beta testers have actually played and quite possibly ever will. We don't even have one of those 'Let's play' videos on youtube.
Game companies are at liberty to change their release dates as and when they like. The games are, afterall, their IP and they're free to do as they wish depending on their desire for money or quality. Of course we know that these days it's mostly the former rather than the latter. It simply wasn't in PoS's power to do any of that.
My best advice for PoS now is to hold on to their own work for as long as they can. Hold on to the currently voided licensing agreements, hold on to all the scripts, plots, any material that was used in their original form. Also any logged discussions and the C&D letter(s). Even if further discussion falls through and we never see the game released, keep everything. Just in case, you know, Activision decides to pull a Microsoft on you.
Not that activision puts out anything I find even slightly entertaining, I will do all I can to see that company's failure.
Quote from: Naruru on March 12, 2010, 05:36:54 PMFor sure you can argue 'would it have been memorable' and so forth, but with the situation as it is, we now have a memorable game that only the beta testers have actually played and quite possibly ever will.
Not true. TSL has released two playable demos, and I've played them both. If it weren't for the C&D, they would still be here for you to play. The first one was a general preview; the second was for the beta-testing contest and it was available to everyone.
QuoteWe don't even have one of those 'Let's play' videos on youtube.
Again, that's because of the C&D - Activision won't let us.
QuoteGame companies are at liberty to change their release dates as and when they like. The games are, afterall, their IP and they're free to do as they wish depending on their desire for money or quality. Of course we know that these days it's mostly the former rather than the latter. It simply wasn't in PoS's power to do any of that.
Until recently, the license from Vivendi GAVE us the power to do that, and we're trying to get it restored.
QuoteMy best advice for PoS now is to hold on to their own work for as long as they can. Hold on to the currently voided licensing agreements, hold on to all the scripts, plots, any material that was used in their original form. Also any logged discussions and the C&D letter(s). Even if further discussion falls through and we never see the game released, keep everything. Just in case, you know, Activision decides to pull a Microsoft on you.
I do agree with the advice to KEEP EVERYTHING. A game company can take your license but they can't take your laptop. And there is always the hope that someday the IP will change hands again and go to a more agreeable company or CEO. But meanwhile, we're going to continue to be lofty idealists. Because we're called "The Silver Lining" and we're not giving up until we find it.
Just got back from mailing the first round of letters to Activision. They should recieved it in about two days and they have to sign for it because I want to know that they had it in their hands. ;)
Quote from: RollingStone on March 16, 2010, 11:14:52 AM
QuoteWe don't even have one of those 'Let's play' videos on youtube.
Again, that's because of the C&D - Activision won't let us.
Actually, there is one (http://www.youtube.com/user/Toegoff#p/c/B07C4707CF4F7D0F/0/5lFgq55QVgU) of the demo.
I've now updated the first post of this thread with Part One of an interview with MediaWhoreNetwork (http://www.mediawhorenetwork.com/2010/03/restore-restart-quit-an-interview-with-phoenix-online-studios-part-one/). Thanks again to Ryan Wilson for the interviewing us! :)
I liked the interview!
*'akes 'ental note to 'ess with flying shoes while flying*
I like it. How about putting this up on the website?
Quote from: RollingStone on March 16, 2010, 11:14:52 AM
Quote from: Naruru on March 12, 2010, 05:36:54 PMFor sure you can argue 'would it have been memorable' and so forth, but with the situation as it is, we now have a memorable game that only the beta testers have actually played and quite possibly ever will.
Not true. TSL has released two playable demos, and I've played them both. If it weren't for the C&D, they would still be here for you to play. The first one was a general preview; the second was for the beta-testing contest and it was available to everyone.
The preview games don't really count. That's like telling me that watching the trailer is as good as watching the movie. When CT:Crimson Echoes was shut down by Squenix, they released a full playthrough of their 98% on youtube. That's what I meant by a 'let's play' video. Which you can't, because of the C&D which I am well aware of. We're all aware that the C&D is the huge wall that stands in the way of everything else. It does not address my issue.
Most of the points regarding my opinion of the Vivendi license and PoS's supposed freedom of schedule were addressed in my first post so I'm not going to touch on that.
Quote from: atec123 on March 16, 2010, 08:12:57 PM
I like it. How about putting this up on the website?
Sure! ;D
Yea go ahead Atec. Actually... can you make a section that contains links to all the interviews that come out? Kind of like a one-stop place for access to all interviews?
Great interview! :yes:
I actually learned to type (not properly, but I do pretty well) from playing the pre-point-and-click games. Space Quest 1 was my first.
Quote from: snabbott on March 17, 2010, 11:16:08 AMI actually learned to type (not properly, but I do pretty well) from playing the pre-point-and-click games. Space Quest 1 was my first.
I'm there with you. I never learned to type properly, but I clocked myself a couple weeks ago at 50 wpm, and I'm sure that's due not only to my schooling, but also to growing up on DOS, Hero's Quest and King's Quest 1-4.
I'm in pretty much the same boat. I learned how to type because of the text parsers in Sierra's adventure games. Granted it's hunt-and-peck... but last time I clocked myself, I was averaging between 65WPM-70WPM... which rivals speeds of traditional typing. I also know how to type traditionally but find it uncomfortable. That and typing traditionally only yields me 50WPM-55WPM.
I owe that to Sierra.
We need to get people inside of Activision... like have a whole bunch of fans get hired and eventually take over the company so that we could release it...
You know, if the whole Save TSL thing doesn't work. :)
I've now linked to Part Two (http://www.mediawhorenetwork.com/2010/03/restore-restart-quit-an-interview-with-phoenix-online-studios-part-two/) of the MediaWhoreNetwork interview in the first post. 8)
Just out of curiosity, how much of the game were you planning to release at once, and how long would it have been between sections? I read somewhere that it was going to be released in five parts, but I thought the game was a trilogy.
Apparantly, there were 9 chapters, distributed between 5 parts and the content that was produced before the C&D was the first part holding chapter 1 and 2. Those would most likely also be the only chapters that would be coming out unless compensation entered the equation.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
Just for a comparison, does anybody know how long it was between Vivendi's Cease and Desist and the fan license? Like, how long it took for them to make a compromise?
The press release stating the project got a C&D was around the start of October. The press release stating the C&D was revoked was around the start of December. So roughly 2 months.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
Quote from: Erpy on March 18, 2010, 04:37:33 PM
The press release stating the project got a C&D was around the start of October. The press release stating the C&D was revoked was around the start of December. So roughly 2 months.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
So we're close to a month with this one... I guess that's a good thing. It means that this could take a while, but we can still make it...
Still, this whole Save TSL seems much harder when you're living through it...
It is a hard time for everyone, we all feel the teams pain on this. I was not present on the forum for the last C&D but we will beat this one just like the last one. Save TSL is alot of hard work but it it is also very satisfying, knowing I (as a fan) can help this time around.
(Posted on: March 18, 2010, 05:32:12 PM)
Mailed Petition Update!!!
Status: Delivered
Your item was delivered at 11:13 AM on March 18, 2010 in SANTA MONICA, CA 90405.
Quote from: Erpy on March 18, 2010, 01:51:57 PM
Apparantly, there were 9 chapters, distributed between 5 parts and the content that was produced before the C&D was the first part holding chapter 1 and 2.
Actually, I should clarify this. Chapters 1 & 2 were merged into one season and then reorganized into 5 episodes. The season as a whole was comparable in length to Tales of Monkey Island (yes, they were
that large).
Quote from: Yonkey on March 18, 2010, 08:14:52 PM
Quote from: Erpy on March 18, 2010, 01:51:57 PM
Apparantly, there were 9 chapters, distributed between 5 parts and the content that was produced before the C&D was the first part holding chapter 1 and 2.
Actually, I should clarify this. Chapters 1 & 2 were merged into one season and then reorganized into 5 episodes. The season as a whole was comparable in length to Tales of Monkey Island (yes, they were that large).
*is left having to ask and wonder*
Dear Lord, HOW LONG WAS THIS GAME!? (and I still want to PLAY every minute of it!)... I mean, overall, that means that it was about 4X as long as Tales of Monkey Island...
Wait, so chapter 1 and 2 were turned into one whole, which in turn was split into 5 separate parts, right? If I understood correctly, chapter 1 and 2 were what was about to be released, so where is the added benefit of splitting it into pieces if all pieces were already finished? To make it easier on dial-up users?
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashblue.jpg)
Episodic Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episodic_video_game#Advantages)
There are several advantages to following an episodic business model. The largest is that it allows for games to be developed and released faster. In essence, it would make it far more realistic for the remaining Chapters of TSL to see the light of day.
Ah, so if I understand correctly, the shuffle-and-split thing was done not so much for the sake of the currently-finished content itself, but to be consistent with your vision of the handling of theoretical future releases.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
Exactly. The storyline itself was originally built to be nine Chapters, and the decision to reduce it to 2 was not one we made lightly, especially knowing all that we would be losing in doing so. When the opportunity came up to restructure the game in a way so that there could be a future, we jumped on it. Of course, it is still highly dependent on how well received Season 1 is (which is something I've said many times), but at least from a development-standpoint, it puts us in a place where we can release games much quicker than every 2-4 years.
I think you guys will have a very popular season 1. Just look at how much support you all have received in just a short time. Keep your chins up, you have a future in the gaming community. I am already going to be a loyal customer
QuoteWhen the opportunity came up to restructure the game in a way so that there could be a future, we jumped on it.
This is getting kind of abstract. You say the opportunity came up to restructure the game. You're suggesting something happened between the release of the dreaded developer's journal #12 and the release of the press statement that is currently on the front page that created an opportunity that wasn't there before. What happened exactly and in what way did it create "an opportunity"?
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashshp.jpg)
Cez got a job with Telltale. :P He basically explained to us how they're successful at making games, and how applying the same episodic business model to TSL could facilitate the game having a possible future.
Perhaps the better word choice would that the idea of restructuring came up moreso than the 'opportunity'.
Wait... are you saying that chapters 1 and 2 were being split into five episodes?
Just want to make sure you didn't mean that all nine chapters were split into five releases instead of... what was the original plan, four? I guess that doesn't make much sense now that I think about it though...
It seems that 100,000 is the goal for the petition. I would get everyone you know to sign it regardless of whether or not they are a fan.
Quote from: blahmoomoo on March 19, 2010, 01:20:50 PM
Wait... are you saying that chapters 1 and 2 were being split into five episodes?
Just want to make sure you didn't mean that all nine chapters were split into five releases instead of... what was the original plan, four? I guess that doesn't make much sense now that I think about it though...
Yes, Chapters 1 & 2 were the ones being split up. The plan in 2004 was to split the game into three parts, each part containing 3 Chapters. But that was before we knew how massive each Chapter would be to develop.
Quote from: liggy002 on March 19, 2010, 01:30:03 PM
It seems that 100,000 is the goal for the petition. I would get everyone you know to sign it regardless of whether or not they are a fan.
I'm actually planning on signing it once it passes 2000. :)
I liked the episode idea. It took me a while just to get through the Monkey Island tales. Imagine Kings Quest as a episode and the speculation between releases.
I feel sorry for everyone involved in the game, that you lost all your hard work.
I have to say though a little over a year ago, just after Activision and Blizzard merged, and Activision gained access to most of VU's assets, I predicted that it wouldn't bode well for TSL. I had a little arguement with Yonkey about it... He thought everything would be fine. I warned that things could easily change, since it was a different company.
I'm sorry that my prediction came true... :(
I hope that like the first time the Phoenix can raise from the ashes, and make a deal with Activision. But if Activision doesn't change their mind. Thank you for all the fun and interesting discussions you have brought over the years. Your game will be remembered.
Ye of little faith. ::)
I remember back when we received the C&D from Vivendi, many people on many websites were sceptical that we would change their minds. They wondered how signing a petition, sending an e-mail, or writing a letter could sway a massive corporation, that legally had every right to do whatever they wanted with their intellectual property.
But there were also people that believed in our game, and in us as a team. They understood our company mission and our team's goal. They knew that despite the improbable odds and enormous uphill battle we'd be facing, their support and faith would carry us through. That is basically what it all boiled down to -- one person changing their mind.
So yes, Activision may be a different company, with different management and different policies, but at the end of the day, it's still just a matter of the right person listening and understanding what we're trying to do. Once this happens, things could easily change yet again, and TSL will be able to be released.
I think the difference though, but Activision is pretty notorious for not only sueing other companies to protect their patent and IPs, but also being sued for stealing patent information from other companies. I know VU had its own lawsuits but I seem to recall they usually turned out to be the underdog, and lost.
Activision on the other hand has always seemed to be pretty hard corp and militant about their lawsuits, willing to pay out alot to win at all costs. So it will probably be a difficult uphill battle, perhaps even more difficult than it was with VU.
If you win, it will hopefully send a powerful message to other litigation happy 'evil empire' gaming companies ("Square Enix", "Lucasarts", i'm pointing at you), that have destroyed other fan communities projects.
True, but that doesn't really apply to our situation. They already know that they stand nothing to gain financially or otherwise from suing us, and by abiding by their C&D, they have no real cause for litigation either. Our game doesn't harm the Sierra IP or their company. If anything, they could really stand to benefit from working out an arrangement with us. Especially considering they had said one of their company goals was to improve their relations with indie developers.
That's why I strongly believe it's just a matter of the right person within their company needing to understand.
It doesn't matter how big a company is, we can still try to change their minds. David slew Golieth didn't he? That was a large battle and Golieth was suppose to win but the bigger they come the harder they will fall. Keep faith Baggins. Don't give into despair, but believe, and hope. We will win, or Activision might as well get use to the constant mailings.
In the end, like Neil said, it all boils down to One. All it takes is one person taking a stand inside of Activision and it'll start a chain reaction. Many instances in history point to this very thing. And yet, so much doubt and despair.
We won't throw in the towel... we will keep being heard. I have no problem in contacting website after website, arranging interview after interview. Whatever it takes and however long it takes to reach that one person who can start the chain reaction we need... I'll do it. And I believe I speak not only of myself here, but of the rest of the Save TSL team (Waltz, Crayauctin, and Atec) as well.
So keep spreading the word. Every petition signature, letter, email, and survey just adds fuel to the fire that is business. And yes, ladies and gentlemen, it's business. Vivendi wrote TSL off because they had determined no one but a small handful of people would care about TSL being shut down. They determined issuing a C&D would cause a few small ripples in the pond... but eventually the pond would return to calm stillness. The fans proved them wrong and they took notice.
We will make Activision take notice. Or, to expand on what Waltz said, they better get accustomed to negative publicity. Every time TSL or the Save TSL Movement is mentioned on a website, that just creates more ripples in the pond that is public opinion. Every time they receive a care package from Waltz, that's more ripples in the pond that is public opinion.
At what point does a ripple become a wave? At what point does a wave become a tsunami? These are questions that will become all to clear the longer we stay the course. And I promise you this... the more people that support us, the more likely Activision will listen. In the end they'll have about as much choice in the matter as the beach has against the tides of the ocean.
Errr, how about just removing any KQ references from the game??
Quote from: Dude on March 21, 2010, 01:25:32 AM
Errr, how about just removing any KQ references from the game??
A LAST resort. That would take years. If I had more time, I would quote some of the postsa that explained this perfectly.
http://savetsl.co.cc/
read all that stuff. The interview has some nice info too. As does this thread.
That would be rather tough. Considering that most of the assets we have seen so far are directly derivitive of artwork from KQ6 or KQ7 material.
Most of the characters we have seen so far are based directly on characters from previous games (and the artwork from those games). Now, they could probably get away with using the royal robe wearing version of 'Graham' (as seen in the demo) and just change his name.
However, the version of the character with, the red shirt, blue hat/recfeather, black pants, would remain too close to the classic character to accused of "ripping-off".
However, their versions of Alexander, Rosella, even Valanice are so original they could probably be used by just changing the name. The clothes do not match any previous versions of the characters, and they could get away with them just being generic fantasy characters. Obviously their "original" villain could get away with just a name change, as that character has never appeared in previous games, and his appearance is generic anyways.
The biggest issue would be the locations. For example the Green Isles (we have seen already). Unless the locations were modified enough that they no longer resemble the original locations, or fanciful enough to be considered complete parody (think Myst vs. Pyst), then it would still be possible for Activision to claim that intellectual property was stolen, if they wanted to.
If anything at this point if POS, wanted to go the method of making it a completely new universe, it would probably take another 5-8 years to finish. Since many of the assets probably would need to be replaced. I understand that they also have worked on completley original locations, those could definitely be retained.
But I'm guessing that the team wouldn't want to go through all the hard work to completly replace assets, if they can somehow convince Activision instead.
One thing I'm wondering about though, is if Activision is still planning on selling the IP to some new party (as there was talk of that earlier last year).
If may be possible that the new party is putting certain conditions on the IP before they are willing to buy it, which may include making sure they have complete control of it as much as possible. Even though Activision retains full rights to do with or what they want with VU's old contract with POS, the new company might see it as some kind of risk (conflict of interest, loss of IP control). They might see it as part of the IP existing outside of normal contracts.
Alternatively, it could be Activision who might see the POS as some kind of problem in negotiating the sell of the franchise to whatever party/parties has shown interest. They have been the one to nix it, so that it doesn't "get in their way" of selling the IP off. If the latter it is probably pure paranoia on Activision's part. Overzealous protection and securing of the IP, where there is no danger of losing it.
If any of this is going on, we won't be privy to any of it, unti Activision either decides to keep the IP, or sell it off. It probably won't become public until the decision has been signed. In anycase its possible that whatever is going on in Activision is more complicated than we actually understand it.
All this talk of buying IP's...
Well, it may be a farfetched idea, but if Activision were to sell the King's Quest IP, maybe we could raise money to help POS buy it...
You know, if that were going to happen.
Just an idea.
Can't you play the game, record it, and post the video on youtube? There's no way THAT'S illegal...look at all the mash-up videos and tribute videos and whatnot that exist on there. I, for one, at least want to SEE what happened.
Quote from: Cool DR Money on March 21, 2010, 06:13:54 PM
Can't you play the game, record it, and post the video on youtube? There's no way THAT'S illegal...look at all the mash-up videos and tribute videos and whatnot that exist on there.
That would still be a violation of our C&D since it constitutes as use/display of TSL material. And to be quite honest, watching someone else play through the game isn't as fun as physically playing it for yourself.
Hmm...
So Activision requested that all visual, audio, and storyline media be taken down in their C&D. I wonder why the C&D given to Crimson Echoes only requested the cease of hacking the Chrono Trigger ROM and deletion of all work toward the hack. They have plenty of visual media still on their website, plus many videos on Youtube, including a complete playthrough of the last internal version that they had (and I assume that the playthrough videos were created before the C&D).
I'm not saying that Activision can't tell you to take down media related to the game. It's just odd that SquareEnix did not demand that Crimson Echoes remove all derivatives (screenshots, gameplay videos, etc.) created from their ROM hacking pursuits.
Actually, they even have game sprites, the plot outline, and beta testing stuff on their site. I guess anything that is not the ROM hack itself is ok to have up under the C&D, as long as it wasn't created by hacking the ROM after the C&D was issued. I guess SE doesn't care.
Yea the Crimson Echoes C&D was a lot looser in terms of what it actually demanded. I think Activision is trying to erase TSL from history, as their C&D targets just about everything. Of course, as has been stated repeatedly, this is well within their rights as the legal owners of the IP... but it certainly doesn't do anything to reduce the "you'll play by my rules or you won't play at all" feeling.
Quote from: oberonqa on March 22, 2010, 09:04:53 AM
Yea the Crimson Echoes C&D was a lot looser in terms of what it actually demanded. I think Activision is trying to erase TSL from history, as their C&D targets just about everything. Of course, as has been stated repeatedly, this is well within their rights as the legal owners of the IP... but it certainly doesn't do anything to reduce the "you'll play by my rules or you won't play at all" feeling.
It is not within their rights to erase TSL from history (though they are certainly trying!), it is within their rights to cause Phoenix Online Studios to cease and desist -- as in stop. Present tense, concerning now and the future, not the past. That is all. There is absolutely not any right afforded to any entity to erase anything legal from history, and as POS was granted a fan license by Vivendi they were absolutely not breaking any laws.
I was referring to the legality of C&D's in general... not the moral implications of the C&D, Crayauctin. :)
I don't visit very often but come here about once every 2 months to see what is going on. I came here two days ago only to find out about the C&D. I felt like crying....I feel terrible for the people who worked so hard on this project and for all of the fans.
I have signed the petition, joined the facebook group and have promoted youtube videos. I have gotten a few people that don't even know what KQ is to do so as well. I am going to write letters asap. We won't go down without a fight!! I am going to try make a page promoting this on my squidoo. as soon as I get time.
Best wishes to everyone...
Quote from: oberonqa on March 22, 2010, 09:04:53 AM
Yea the Crimson Echoes C&D was a lot looser in terms of what it actually demanded. I think Activision is trying to erase TSL from history, as their C&D targets just about everything. Of course, as has been stated repeatedly, this is well within their rights as the legal owners of the IP... but it certainly doesn't do anything to reduce the "you'll play by my rules or you won't play at all" feeling.
What do mean by saying "...C&D target just about anything"?
By including C&D to prevent POS in reworking the game is wrong and illegal. Activision will not able to challenge this in any court of law. Any lawyers will agree with me at this point!
Again, if game needs to be reworked, POS definately needs joining with some kind of freeware associations that has legal background knowledge of the gaming industry to keep those greedy companies away!
Quote from: splat44 on March 22, 2010, 03:31:05 PMWhat do mean by saying "...C&D target just about anything"?
I believe he (she? Sorry, I'm not sure) meant that it demanded the removal of everything related to the game from the website, including downloads, screenshots, videos, concept art, forums, designer journals...everything. In comparison, the SE one was very loose; they only asked for development to cease and for all work to be destroyed.
Quote from: splat44 on March 22, 2010, 03:31:05 PMBy including C&D to prevent POS in reworking the game is wrong and illegal.
If you mean preventing them from changing the game to remove all King's Quest references, then yes, that is illegal, but Activision did not ask for that in their C&D.
The C&D we received doesn't prevent us from reworking the game and removing all KQ-based IP, which is why it is still a last resort. But as was previously said, going this route would mean considerable modification and recreation of a great deal of material. It's not impossible to do, but there's no question that it would take time. Given how close the game is to completion, I would much rather prefer to work out some kind of agreement with Activision.
Quote from: oberonqa on March 22, 2010, 11:11:19 AM
I was referring to the legality of C&D's in general... not the moral implications of the C&D, Crayauctin. :)
...I know, that's why I was talking about laws. Reread what I said. :P
Thanks Enchatermon
Quote from: Yonkey on March 22, 2010, 09:31:16 PM
The C&D we received doesn't prevent us from reworking the game and removing all KQ-based IP, which is why it is still a last resort. But as was previously said, going this route would mean considerable modification and recreation of a great deal of material. It's not impossible to do, but there's no question that it would take time. Given how close the game is to completion, I would much rather prefer to work out some kind of agreement with Activision.
All is clear,
By consider following plans:
(A) Activision to reverse C&D
(B) reworking game
Due to amount of time in reworking game, it might best to deal with plan B almost right away in case plan A doesn't lead anywhere?
Again plan B needs to done quietly of course!
Regards
Quote from: Yonkey on March 22, 2010, 09:31:16 PMGiven how close the game is to completion, I would much rather prefer to work out some kind of agreement with Activision.
I agree, and I would presume most people on here would also.
Quote from: splat44 on March 23, 2010, 01:08:54 AMThanks Enchatermon
You're welcome. :)
Quote from: splat44 on March 23, 2010, 01:08:54 AMDue to amount of time in reworking game, it might best to deal with plan B almost right away in case plan A doesn't lead anywhere?
Maybe, but if Activision does let up then all that work could be wasted. Besides, right now the team has enough to deal with in doing interviews and trying to convince Activision to work with them, so it's best if they focus their energies on that, I think.
I'm never buying games from Activision again!
I think that before making the statement that you'll never buy games from Activision ever again, you should realize that radical statements like that won't get the company to change its mind. This has been stated before, but a much better stance is to declare (formally, to the company, through a letter) that you won't purchase their games unless they enter negotiations with the TSL team and give them a chance to finish their work. Losing a customer for good is a one-way street, but losing a customer and having a way to gain their business back creates an opportunity to reverse damage.
Of course, as has also been stated here, if you stop buying games from Activision, you're also hurting the businesses that sell these games and everyone in-between who had nothing to do with the C&D.
:'( If Vivendi wasn't so stuck up when they were, TSL might have been released before activition took over. So it basically are still Vivendi thats to blame. I just can't believe it. Thousands of hopeful fans over years of waiting, and now I'm just like a kid that is told he can't have that candy :(
I'm sorry if I'm stepping on Vivendi's toes, but it's a bloody big blow they gave THEIR fans!
What exactly did Vivendi do? At least they offered a fan license to the team.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashshp.jpg)
They were the first company who had stopped the making of the game. Eventually they came around with a fan license, but that took for ages and they still had to be big brother over the developers. If they hadn't stopped it in the first place, the game would maybe be finished in time and maybe a few years back already.
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silver_Lining_(game)), development was only shut down for two months after Vivendi's C&D. I doubt those two extra months would have been enough to release the game before Activision could step in.
First of all, VU's C&D only threw things out of whack for a month or two...the rest of the delays was simply the team itself underestimating the workload. Without VU's intervention the game might have been done near the end of last year, which was still over a year after VU Games merged with Activision.
Second of all, you can't expect a company not to step in at some point when a fangame takes such a high public profile. The terms of the fan license offered may not have been the most altruistic, but in the end VU is still a business who does not hand unrestricted use of their IP out as some form of charity.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashblue.jpg)
So, yeah, uhm, are you guys talking to Activision at all, or are you waiting for the fan action to inspire them to contact you? Just curious.
We are doing everything we can to get them to talk to us. They haven't responded yet.
:-[
Well, we'll keep knocking down their door for you!
Here's the video I said I'd make - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7toneX-r0UY
Hopefully this gets a few more signatures on the petition. I tried to gear it to both King's Quest fans as well as people who might never have heard of it before.
If you have a YouTube account, you can have it autoplay on your page by following these steps:
1. Go to your page
2. Click "Videos and Playlists"
3. Select "Other" from the Featured video drop-down list
4. Paste the video URL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7toneX-r0UY
5. Check the "autoplay" box under it.
6. Click "Save change"
Nice video, theroachyjay! :)
Hi everyone,
Boycotts and petitions are good ideas, but have you folks considered speaking to the Free Software Foundation? This is exactly the kind of thing that they are equipped to help with. It's true that Activision has a legal right to protect its IP, there are certain things (as others on the forum have pointed out) that they can't prevent you from using or imitating; you could feasibly release the game and protect yourselves legally by making certain changes and these changes probably would not significantly hinder development. Please contact the FSF if you haven't done so already, or I would be happy to contact them on your behalf.
This kind of shut-down is bad for game developers and it's bad for gamers.
That was BEAUTIFUL theroachjay!!! I couldn't tell if it made me cry or my allergies from the dust storm outside. I got chills when I watched it. We need to get Activision to watch this, you spoke for the whole forum!! :D :D :D
Quote from: alawi on March 26, 2010, 04:33:40 PM
Hi everyone,
Boycotts and petitions are good ideas, but have you folks considered speaking to the Free Software Foundation? This is exactly the kind of thing that they are equipped to help with. It's true that Activision has a legal right to protect its IP, there are certain things (as others on the forum have pointed out) that they can't prevent you from using or imitating; you could feasibly release the game and protect yourselves legally by making certain changes and these changes probably would not significantly hinder development. Please contact the FSF if you haven't done so already, or I would be happy to contact them on your behalf.
This kind of shut-down is bad for game developers and it's bad for gamers.
The kind of changs you are suggesting would be in terms of changing the game content so as to no longer have any relationship to King's Quest outside of parody (i.e. change King Graham to King Cracker and the Land of the Green Isles to the Land of the Yellow Islands and Daventry to Pagentry).
It's certainly something that the development team is considering (as per the assorted interviews), but I imagine it's something as a last resort. I don't think anyone really wants a parody of King's Quest unless there really is no other alternative, even if parody is covered under fair use and as such would be exempt from IP/copyright law.
Also, merely calling a game a parody isn't enough to automatically make it so. I'd argue that converting the current game into an actual parody that stands up to the definition is more work than simply taking the KQ content out of it.
Also, parodying is a risky road. The fair use clause doesn't protect one from being sued, it's merely there as a possible defense in court. With Activision, you want to avoid the courts.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashshp.jpg)
The truth is, Activision (or anyone with a lawyer) could sue you for anything. It would take a lawyer to tell you what to do to prevent them from winning a suit. I'm suggesting contacting a lawyer and getting that advice. The FSF has lawyers; let's talk to them and find out what can be done.
I would be ecstatic if this really happened:
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/03/27/silver-lining-devs-want-to-purchase-kings-quest-license-from-ac/
Quote from: SurfnSwells80 on March 27, 2010, 12:49:55 PM
I would be ecstatic if this really happened:
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/03/27/silver-lining-devs-want-to-purchase-kings-quest-license-from-ac/
Is this information even true?
Whether it is or not, I can't believe how rude and ignorant the comments are. "Admit that you've wasted ten years of your lives"?! :no:
And people are
still asking why we can't just take out all the KQ-related stuff? :wall: We get this question so much, I think we need to compose some kind of official standard answer. Maybe it could begin "Most people who suggest this haven't actually seen the game..."
I can confirm that the information is, in fact, true. 8)
Whether it actually happens or not, we'll just have to wait and see.
Yonkey,
I would love donate funds to help you acquire this license... once we find out if this is something Activision is willing to work out...
Perhaps set up a paypal account for those who want to donate?
~Joscasta
P.S. I was really upset when I heard about the C&D especially so close to releasing it after SO long!
Quote from: RollingStone on March 27, 2010, 01:46:08 PM
Quote from: SurfnSwells80 on March 27, 2010, 12:49:55 PM
I would be ecstatic if this really happened:
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/03/27/silver-lining-devs-want-to-purchase-kings-quest-license-from-ac/
Is this information even true?
Whether it is or not, I can't believe how rude and ignorant the comments are. "Admit that you've wasted ten years of your lives"?! :no:
And people are still asking why we can't just take out all the KQ-related stuff? :wall: We get this question so much, I think we need to compose some kind of official standard answer. Maybe it could begin "Most people who suggest this haven't actually seen the game..."
Huh... that's funny... that had been discussed before sort of... and when the C&D came through, I thought that might be the solution...
Hey, you could call it KQIX then! :D ...or release it as a series of games!
If we owned the IP, there is a lot we could do! XD But, right now we're just trying to take things one step at a time.
Oh My God!!!!!!!!!!!! I fell out of my chair when I read that! I would gladly donate everything I had to you guys if you could by Kings Quest!! Keep your fingers crossed everybody!
I'd be happy to donate to, but if you guys owned the IP, would you let other developers use the characters and story for new games?
Again, I don't want to jump too far ahead, because all this is still hypothetical at this point and we haven't discussed the exact details yet. But we would most likely have a proper procedure in place for evaluating licensing requests.
Money seems to be the only way to get Activision to listen to any of us. I'm sure when the annoucement was made in Boston the room either shook or became very quite.
Right, we are getting ahead of ourselves... I'd just feel better about donating if I knew that you guys wouldn't do to others what Activision is doing to you.
They won't do that. What Activision did was cruel. Pheonix has heart and soul, it shows in the game they created. If something was terrible and it would ruin Kings Quest, I'd stop it. But the Kings Quest remakes 1-3, others in the works, I would allow them to come out. The difference is heart.
Quote from: alawi on March 27, 2010, 07:49:33 PM
I'd just feel better about donating if I knew that you guys wouldn't do to others what Activision is doing to you.
I'm pretty sure if we owned the IP that we wouldn't issue out C&D's, unless there was a very good reason to do so. Basically, I can't answer a general statement like that without looking at each request on a case-by-case basis.
As for donations, don't worry about that for the time being. We still need to hear how much it actually costs.
I'm looking at a six digit number :( I don't think Activision is going let us off that easily
This is intresting news indeed, looking forward to how it will develop. Tho the price of the IP 'ight indeed be costly.
Like Neil has said, let's just play it by ear for right now. It is quite an exciting prospect, with equally exciting possibilities... but let's not jump the gun just yet. We all still have a job to do with the Save The Silver Lining Movement. :)
We are the first attack wave! With this news we are staying in the spotlight and applying pressure of Activision every day. At least they have to answer this one.
Quote from: I_am_so_nifty on March 21, 2010, 04:37:11 PM
All this talk of buying IP's...
Well, it may be a farfetched idea, but if Activision were to sell the King's Quest IP, maybe we could raise money to help POS buy it...
You know, if that were going to happen.
Just an idea.
Actually, as you can see, I mentioned this a while ago.
If this were to happen, I'd gladly donate. Or, you know, find a way to donate.
I can also now disclose that we've already mentioned this idea to Activision directly just over a week ago, presenting our market data. Hopefully they will now feel more inclined to respond back.
Is there anyway to get someone to go to their headquarters? Mailings and emails are great, the public announcement was great too but has someone from the team gone to their main building yet? Seeing an actual person with everything might work too.
This is my first post here and I want to say how much I applaud everyone for their efforts here.
I never really felt the urge to join for one reason or another but I just wanted to let everyone, particular those headlining the campaign, that you've got another supporter ready to do anything to save this game.
We've actually offered to meet them in-person from day one, but they needed the project to pass through the legal department first. I think it's safe to say it has now finished "passing through", so yes, we would be completely willing to meet up with them and discuss. They just need to get in contact with us and let us know. :)
You guys are a whole lot nicer than me at this point. I would be in their lobby everyday after work. I became overly assertive this past summer and I have to rope it in at times.
That is good news! Lets hope things will continue to go well.
This is incredibly exciting! From the moment I read about the announcement, my mind began racing with all of the thing's you'd be able to do if you owned the license. The name could be changed, you could finally seek compensation, the rest of the chapters could see the light of day...this is awesome. I'm definitely afraid of the figures you'll be quoted, but if this can be done, it would certainly be an amazing event, not to mention unprecedented!
6 figures, I think maybe even 7 figures if Activision thinks that the King's Quest IP has value and now if they would only respond to someone
::)
If funds to purchase the IP from Activision through donations are insufficient, it might be possible to raise them by continuing with the other games POS was planning to sell and then buying the KQ IP with some of the proceeds. Obviously this would take a good long time might not work, and it would be up to whomever ultimately owns POS (I assume there are no plans to issue public stock anytime soon). It would depend on lot on the two unknown variable of how much the IP cost and how much POS makes, but it is a plan that might be faster than remaking the game if any other projects are cloe to fruition.
It would also be possible to pitch the idea to venture capitalists, especially if a donation program had secured a respectable amount. Any venture capitalist worth their salt would at least be open to the idea of funding POS if capital was already there in the form of donations from supporters (which would be viewable as market viability).
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa... whoa.
Guys, this is not my Batman glass. ::)
In all seriousness, buying the IP would be a dream come true, but it most certainly will cost more than any of us makes in a single year--possibly more than all of us make in a single year combined.
Right now, I see getting Activision to reverse their decision MUCH more plausible. Keep up the momentum guys.
QuoteWe've actually offered to meet them in-person from day one, but they needed the project to pass through the legal department first.
Wait, what exactly did you offer them on day one? Was your initial contact a simple request for a submit-review-and-go or was there some sort of sales pitch included from the start?
There's a lot of mixed comments here...are we talking about the purchase of a commercial license (which authorizes someone to do one game with the IP) or the purchase of the IP itself. (which allows the new owner to do whatever the hell he wants with it until he sells it again)
I take it that if people go through with buying a commercial license, the game itself will be sold instead of being a free download. Are there any guidelines in place that make certain each of the (many) team members is fairly compensated if that happens? In a non-profit project, it doesn't matter who does what, since everybody gets paid the same, but if it suddenly goes commercial you have to remember exact level of contribution for each individual member. That's quite a task to do after-the-fact. (and what would happen if an individual member would not care to sign over ownership of his contributions for commercial use unless he's paid an x amount?) Can of worms anyone?
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashblue.jpg)
Ken and Roberta have a heck of a lot of money... ;)
You bring up some good points Erpy. If the team was to go that route, I think the best way to avoid the can of worms would probably be to release the first episode of TSL as freeware and then make the remaining episodes of TSL as commercial products.
And to clarify, the discussion is about buying the King's Quest IP and not a commercial license.
There's also the fact some people don't like their contributions to be used for commercial purpose on principle. Josh Mandel stated when SQ7 shut itself down, his contributions were on the condition the game itself would be freeware. We found that while we were collecting signatures for the validation of AGDI's license, some voice actors were put off by the mere possibility of their work being sold at some point and it sometimes took some convincing. This may seem strange, but keep in mind that a lot of people join fan-development communities out of pure idealism, rather than ambition for commercial ventures and want fangames to remain fangames.
But if the first game would be free, how are you going to get the money to buy a commercial license to begin with.
QuoteAnd to clarify, the discussion is about buying the King's Quest IP and not a commercial license.
Is it? I got the opposite impression. Keep in mind that buying a franchise itself adds one or two additional digits to an already high sum of money, since you're not merely paying for the ability to produce stuff with that IP, but you're also paying for the ownership and distribution rights on existing IP. (the 8 other KQ games + any remakes of them) And the original stuff IS being commercially distributed as we speak, so that factors in too.
Also, keep in mind that it's very unlikely that a company is willing to sell the individual franchises that were created by Sierra, since part of their value is the collective "Quest"-thing...in other words, they'll probably tell you that if you want the KQ IP, you'll have to take the SQ IP, the QFG IP, the PQ IP, the LSL IP, the GK IP, the LB IP, the Conquests IP and the various misc games along with it...and you'll be paying for those too.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
Quote from: Erpy on March 28, 2010, 11:15:24 AM
Also, keep in mind that it's very unlikely that a company is willing to sell the individual franchises that were created by Sierra, since part of their value is the collective "Quest"-thing...in other words, they'll probably tell you that if you want the KQ IP, you'll have to take the SQ IP, the QFG IP, the PQ IP, the LSL IP, the GK IP, the LB IP, the Conquests IP and the various misc games along with it...and you'll be paying for those too.
That's not necessarily a bad thing. Yes it's going to add some zero's to the table... but I don't see anything wrong with POS purchasing the entire Sierra IP. For the first time since the Cendant days, the Sierra IP could be in the hands of a company that is committed to the IP and the community.
So like I said, purchasing the entire IP isn't necessarily a bad thing in my opinion. Far from it... it's actually a good thing.
Quote from: Erpy on March 28, 2010, 11:15:24 AM
But if the first game would be free, how are you going to get the money to buy a commercial license to begin with.
Well, they couldn't very well sell the first game to get the money to buy a commercial license or the IP... seeing as selling the first game would imply having one of those in the first place. ;P
I had thought that making the first installment free or having TSL be free anyway would be a good option for saying thank you if there's considerable fan support towards the purchase of the IP.
QuoteWell, they couldn't very well sell the first game to get the money to buy a commercial license or the IP... seeing as selling the first game would imply having one of those in the first place.
Um...I was more thinking along the path of getting a third party funder to cough up the money for a commercial license and then pay said funder back with the profits from the first game. If the first chapter generated enough profits, said funder might then be inclined to fund the production of a second chapter. That'd be the most realistic option, really.
QuoteI had thought that making the first installment free or having TSL be free anyway would be a good option for saying thank you if there's considerable fan support towards the purchase of the IP.
So what you're basically saying is that it'd be a nice gesture to make all potential chapters downloadable free of charge as a "thank you" for the fan support that supposedly made the purchase of a commercial license possible, but you're still not saying where the money for said purpose came from.
QuoteThat's not necessarily a bad thing. Yes it's going to add some zero's to the table... but I don't see anything wrong with POS purchasing the entire Sierra IP. For the first time since the Cendant days, the Sierra IP could be in the hands of a company that is committed to the IP and the community.
So like I said, purchasing the entire IP isn't necessarily a bad thing in my opinion. Far from it... it's actually a good thing.
You're right. It's not necessarily a bad thing. Gold coins spontaneously coming out of Cesar's ass wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing either. (well, not bad for him at least) My point wasn't so much as whether it'd be a good thing or a bad thing. My point was whether it'd be a realistic thing.
If someone among the POS bigwigs had a sugar daddy with so much money the mere possession of it was making him physically ill and he was desperate to get rid of it, I'm guessing they already would have bought a commercial license to begin with and not bother with the risky road they've been treading. So my hunch is they have some contacts in the electronic entertainment industry who might be willing to supply a limited sum for the production of a commercial KQ game. Imagine this:
POS: So we've learned that a commercial license for the first part of TSL costs xxxxxxx dollar.
3rd party funder: Yeah, we've spoken about that already. I'll consider it.
POS: However, there's also the option of forgetting about licensing and just purchase all Sierra IP. It'll be ours to use as we please forever and it'll only cost us 100 times as much.
3rd party funder: And why would I pay 100 times as much for something that has the same short term results?
POS: It'd be nice to have all Sierra IP.
3rd party funder: Nice, you said?
POS: Yes, it'd be a good thing. It'd be nice.
3rd party funder: Well, that's won the argument. Where do I sign?
Sure, that'll happen.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashmean.jpg)
Quote from: Erpy on March 28, 2010, 01:20:30 PM
You're right. It's not necessarily a bad thing. Gold coins spontaneously coming out of Cesar's ass wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing either. (well, not bad for him at least) My point wasn't so much as whether it'd be a good thing or a bad thing. My point was whether it'd be a realistic thing.
If someone among the POS bigwigs had a sugar daddy with so much money the mere possession of it was making him physically ill and he was desperate to get rid of it, I'm guessing they already would have bought a commercial license to begin with and not bother with the risky road they've been treading. So my hunch is they have some contacts in the electronic entertainment industry who might be willing to supply a limited sum for the production of a commercial KQ game. Imagine this:
POS: So we've learned that a commercial license for the first part of TSL costs xxxxxxx dollar.
3rd party funder: Yeah, we've spoken about that already. I'll consider it.
POS: However, there's also the option of forgetting about licensing and just purchase all Sierra IP. It'll be ours to use as we please forever and it'll only cost us 100 times as much.
3rd party funder: And why would I pay 100 times as much for something that has the same short term results?
POS: It'd be nice to have all Sierra IP.
3rd party funder: Nice, you said?
POS: Yes, it'd be a good thing. It'd be nice.
3rd party funder: Well, that's won the argument. Where do I sign?
Sure, that'll happen.
Well look at it this way. POS owning the Sierra IP means they can sell the Sierra games. Those games over on GOG would generate royalties that would go into POS's pockets. They would also be able to repackage and sell the Sierra games as they saw fit... doing what Vivendi should have done a couple years ago instead of doing a quick and dirty box for each of the 'Quest series.
As part of the purchase, POS would also probably obtain the actual production-related materials to each of the games that makes up the IP. Source code, art assets, design documents, etc. That would be quite usable now and in the future.
So it wouldn't just be a matter of "lets own the Sierra IP because it'd be nice". It would be nice... but there is more to life than sugar and rainbows and there are definite business advantages to owning the Sierra IP that far exceeds the "let's buy the Sierra IP just so we can put out TSL". If that was all POS was going to do with the IP, then you'd be 100% correct. But I have great confidence that the people at POS are not stupid. Nor are they ignorant. And it would take someone who is stupid AND ignorant to not see the potential business applications behind such a purchase.
Quote from: oberonqa on March 28, 2010, 01:30:13 PM
Well look at it this way. POS owning the Sierra IP means they can sell the Sierra games. Those games over on GOG would generate royalties that would go into POS's pockets. They would also be able to repackage and sell the Sierra games as they saw fit... doing what Vivendi should have done a couple years ago instead of doing a quick and dirty box for each of the 'Quest series.
As part of the purchase, POS would also probably obtain the actual production-related materials to each of the games that makes up the IP. Source code, art assets, design documents, etc. That would be quite usable now and in the future.
So it wouldn't just be a matter of "lets own the Sierra IP because it'd be nice". It would be nice... but there is more to life than sugar and rainbows and there are definite business advantages to owning the Sierra IP that far exceeds the "let's buy the Sierra IP just so we can put out TSL". If that was all POS was going to do with the IP, then you'd be 100% correct. But I have great confidence that the people at POS are not stupid. Nor are they ignorant. And it would take someone who is stupid AND ignorant to not see the potential business applications behind such a purchase.
So why does Telltale, a company partially consisting of former Lucasarts employees, not own the Monkey Island franchise? It's still Lucasarts owning the IP, Telltale (I believe) merely operates under a commercial license to use the Monkey Island IP for commercial purposes. They could have made LA an offer they couldn't refuse...the question is what's the most financially viable solution. I don't think Telltale is stupid or ignorant.
When Yosemite was closed down, most source code and design documents ended up in the trash. The design docs for the QFG series aren't in a vault at Activision right now...they're in Lori Cole's closet. (trust me, I've been there) If the old Sierra classics could easily and cheaply be ported to Windows XP/Vista/7, Vivendi would have done that already back when they rereleased their collections. I've heard they tried to get a 3rd party developer to reverse-engineer the games, but ultimately that failed, so they bundled the games with Dosbox instead.
Purchasing "Sierra" would literally cost many millions. What funding party in the right mind would cough up that sum up front for merely the potential of repackaging and maybe slightly retooling of old Dos games? Those things would be pocket change and not nearly enough to cover the costs of such a massive investment. I don't think you'll find someone willing to fund that kind of thing. Not when, for POS' purposes, a single commercial license would serve the same purpose.
I don't consider myself ignorant or stupid, but I do fail to see the potential business applications of such a large investment to be sufficient to get even close to a break even point.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashswt.jpg)
Quote from: Erpy on March 28, 2010, 01:20:30 PM
QuoteWell, they couldn't very well sell the first game to get the money to buy a commercial license or the IP... seeing as selling the first game would imply having one of those in the first place.
Um...I was more thinking along the path of getting a third party funder to cough up the money for a commercial license and then pay said funder back with the profits from the first game. If the first chapter generated enough profits, said funder might then be inclined to fund the production of a second chapter. That'd be the most realistic option, really.
Um... you didn't say that. ::)
Quote from: Erpy on March 28, 2010, 01:20:30 PM
QuoteI had thought that making the first installment free or having TSL be free anyway would be a good option for saying thank you if there's considerable fan support towards the purchase of the IP.
So what you're basically saying is that it'd be a nice gesture to make all potential chapters downloadable free of charge as a "thank you" for the fan support that supposedly made the purchase of a commercial license possible, but you're still not saying where the money for said purpose came from.
By "first installment", I meant first chapter. As for where that money would come from, by "fan support" I was referring to posts from fans that have suggested their willingness to donate their own money to the cause. (Though I will admit that the statements as written were ambiguous.)
So what I'm basically saying is that if fan support in the form of monetary donations helped make it possible for POS to buy the Sierra IP, they might consider releasing chapter 1 or the whole of TSL for free.
EDIT: XD XD (sorry this was too good to pass up)
Quote from: Erpy on March 28, 2010, 01:46:27 PM
The design docs for the QFG series aren't in a vault at Activision right now...they're in Lori Cole's closet. (trust me, I've been there)
Uhm... may I ask what you were doing in Lori Cole's closet? XD
Quote from: Erpy on March 28, 2010, 01:46:27 PM
So why does Telltale, a company partially consisting of former Lucasarts employees, not own the Monkey Island franchise? It's still Lucasarts owning the IP, Telltale (I believe) merely operates under a commercial license to use the Monkey Island IP for commercial purposes. They could have made LA an offer they couldn't refuse...the question is what's the most financially viable solution. I don't think Telltale is stupid or ignorant.
Perhaps LucasArts was willing to play ball with Telltale? Thus far Activision doesn't want to play ball... which means no talks of commercial licences or any kind of license whatsoever. Activision has zero interest in TSL, as you'll recall from the post C&D interviews. They also have zero interest in their IP library, as you'll recall from Kotick's keynote address.
Quote
When Yosemite was closed down, most source code and design documents ended up in the trash. The design docs for the QFG series aren't in a vault at Activision right now...they're in Lori Cole's closet. (trust me, I've been there) If the old Sierra classics could easily and cheaply be ported to Windows XP/Vista/7, Vivendi would have done that already back when they rereleased their collections. I've heard they tried to get a 3rd party developer to reverse-engineer the games, but ultimately that failed, so they bundled the games with Dosbox instead.
Note I said SHOULD be a part of the purchase. I didn't say WOULD be part of the purchase because things like stuff being trashed happened all the time back then.
Quote
Purchasing "Sierra" would literally cost many millions. What funding party in the right mind would cough up that sum up front for merely the potential of repackaging and maybe slightly retooling of old Dos games? Those things would be pocket change and not nearly enough to cover the costs of such a massive investment. I don't think you'll find someone willing to fund that kind of thing. Not when, for POS' purposes, a single commercial license would serve the same purpose.
If Activision was interested in selling a commercial license to POS, that would be great. It's certainly something I'm sure POS has mentioned to them...
Quote
I don't consider myself ignorant or stupid, but I do fail to see the potential business applications of such a large investment to be sufficient to get even close to a break even point.
I'm beginning to notice a disturbing trend here. We always end up arguing back and forth... and I don't want to argue possibilities. We've argued semantics and law.... ideas and philosophy. You name it, we've argued it.
I'm done arguing with you Erpy. From this point forward you can tear apart what I say as much as you like. I'm not going to respond to it. Even when I say you make good points, you still insist on arguing with me. That stops now. I will not continue to argue with someone who, for all intents and purposes, seems to delight in getting the last word and arguing for arguing's sake. I could say to you "Hey Erpy, I like your signature!" and you would probably argue with me about why I like your signature.
Enough is enough.
QuoteSo what I'm basically saying is that if fan support in the form of monetary donations helped make it possible for POS to buy the Sierra IP, they might consider releasing chapter 1 or the whole of TSL for free.
Except they won't end up buying the Sierra IP.
QuoteUhm... may I ask what you were doing in Lori Cole's closet?
LOL, sorry, you're right. That sentence was EXTREMELY poorly worded. What I meant to say was AGD1, AGD2 and I visited Lori Cole at her place some years back and got to read the design docs for a bit. Aziza's minigame in QFG2VGA is directly based on material from those documents.
QuoteNote I said SHOULD be a part of the purchase. I didn't say WOULD be part of the purchase because things like stuff being trashed happened all the time back then.
Yes, it SHOULD, but it isn't. Meaning the process of retooling the classics suddenly becomes a lot more costly. Which was kinda my point.
QuoteI'm beginning to notice a disturbing trend here. We always end up arguing back and forth... and I don't want to argue possibilities. We've argued semantics and law.... ideas and philosophy. You name it, we've argued it.
I'm done arguing with you Erpy. From this point forward you can tear apart what I say as much as you like. I'm not going to respond to it. Even when I say you make good points, you still insist on arguing with me. That stops now. I will not continue to argue with someone who, for all intents and purposes, seems to delight in getting the last word and arguing for arguing's sake. I could say to you "Hey Erpy, I like your signature!" and you would probably argue with me about why I like your signature.
Enough is enough.
Oberonqa, maybe that last part of my last post came out somewhat argumentative, but please don't mistake my posts as attempts to pick on you personally. It's true we've had plenty of disagreements... I think both of us have the tendency to reply when we read something we disagree with, which can cause heated discussions, but when I respond to a post, I don't discriminate on who's writing it. If you feel the way I word something is offensive or disrespectful, I'll be happy to rephrase things.
I asked whether this thing was about POS buying a commercial license or POS buying Sierra IP. You said it was about the latter, I disagreed and we ended up arguing/debating about why the latter was feasable or not. You're right, maybe we got carried away and started arguing about hypotheticals. This thing kinda got derailed.
So let's get back on topic. Let's speculate about the possibilities of POS buying a commercial license from Activision. Let's debate on whether this'll mean the first part will be commercial too or not. But let's drop the stuff about buying up Sierra IP and all. The Joystiq-article literally says POS talks about buying a commercial license...it's even in the URL, not a word in there is about buying up any IP. I'll leave it up to you to decide for yourself whether this paragraph's purpose is about keeping this thread grounded in reality or simply about getting the last word in.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashsinc.jpg)
Quote from: Erpy on March 28, 2010, 03:12:53 PM
QuoteSo what I'm basically saying is that if fan support in the form of monetary donations helped make it possible for POS to buy the Sierra IP, they might consider releasing chapter 1 or the whole of TSL for free.
Except they won't end up buying the Sierra IP.
If they do only purchase a commercial license, then yes, it would be silly to let it go for free. Sorry, I think there's been a misunderstanding in this thread. I assumed that the intention was to attempt to purchase the KQ IP (I believe as IIRC you have said, Erpy, that Activision likely wouldn't be willing to break up the IP, but purchasing just the KQ IP would be considerably cheaper in theory than purchasing all of the Sierra IP, etc.).
Is there a longer article or something other than this (http://www.joystiq.com/2010/03/27/silver-lining-devs-want-to-purchase-kings-quest-license-from-ac/) out there somewhere?
*wants to see more than just those two paragraphs* XD
(Although in pulling that up for the link, I noticed that it is somewhat inconsistent... the article says intellectual property in one place and license in another while the title just says license *shrugs*)
EDIT: also...
Quote from: Erpy on March 28, 2010, 03:12:53 PM
LOL, sorry, you're right. That sentence was EXTREMELY poorly worded. What I meant to say was AGD1, AGD2 and I visited Lori Cole at her place some years back and got to read the design docs for a bit. Aziza's minigame in QFG2VGA is directly based on material from those documents.
Very cool! :thumbsup:
Hey, you're right. It DOES seem somewhat inconsistent. I missed that too. Hmmm...now I'm not so sure myself anymore what exactly they mean.
Um...the reason I presumed before Activision wasn't going to sell individual Sierra franchises is because the Sierra IP has always been somewhat clogged together. In the past, I've heard the Coles stated interest in the QFG rights and VU wouldn't let go of those individually either. The reason for this, I presume, is because selling the franchises individually leaves the IP holder with several less well-known franchises that they probably wouldn't be able to get rid of anymore. (stuff like the Manhunter series and Codename Iceman) So they bundle the stuff together in an all-or-nothing deal. Dividing them up would just lower the value of the individual franchises. If developers want to make a game based on one series, the IP holder can still license it out and the developer doesn't have to shell out an obscene amount of money. Both parties are happy.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
I think a commercial licence is more reasonable at this point, money wise. We would be paying Activision to allow the game to be released and they would be at least getting some of the profits too right? I honestly don't know. I would at least make a point in the contract that they can complete all the chapters and guarantee the release of them, even if Activision sells the IP to another party. This is what came to my mind after rereading the article again.
When IP changes ownership, all contracts and licenses involving the IP are automatically transferred to the new owner. If the old IP holder was actually funding the production of a project, the new IP holder can cancel it though. (and I believe Activision pulled that trick in the past) If you acquired a commercial license by purchasing it with funds from an outside source however, the license can't be revoked just like that.
However, I'm not certain if a "complete all of them"-clause is gonna be in there. When licensing a product, you're basically paying per use. Buying a license for a single game is cheaper than buying a license for several games and you don't know in advance just how profitable the project is gonna be. Getting a license for one chapter at a time is the safer route. The riskier route is trying to get a license for an entire series and if things turn out to be commercially profitable, you don't run the risk of the IP holder wanting a higher price for licensing the next chapter, but if things aren't turning a tidy profit, you've paid a lot of additional money for permission to release chapters you don't have the funds to produce.
In the end, it all depends on how lucky the financing party feels about things. (whoever that's gonna be)
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashum.jpg)
Thank you for the insight, you are right about the single game idea. It would be less risky for just this first chapter to come out and I would be happy with anything. :D
Quote from: waltzdancing on March 28, 2010, 07:25:36 PM
Thank you for the insight, you are right about the single game idea. It would be less risky for just this first chapter to come out and I would be happy with anything. :D
why not just combine them so they are one game?
What with all the time it took to create this one, it would take much, much, longer to release them all as one game. And if the first game sold well, the team could make even more money off other chapters, and be able to release them faster.
Quote from: Rider Jetfire on March 28, 2010, 08:03:33 PM
What with all the time it took to create this one, it would take much, much, longer to release them all as one game. And if the first game sold well, the team could make even more money off other chapters, and be able to release them faster.
That was my thinking
Well, as I said in my first post on here, I suck socially, so I've not posted here. But, I feel I should once more throw my 2 cents into the hat so-to-speak, simply because as a game developer myself, I do know how much every little bit of support makes you happier inside to read. Especially in ill times. With that being said, my post will likely be long since they're few between, ignore it if you like.
I've not bothered posting in some weeks, but I have managed to rally the support of almost everyone I know (Considering I helped develop Official Tibia and currently GM on 2 RO Private Servers, that's more people than you might expect from someone as socially inept as myself.)
I've not yet read through 'all' the posts since my last one, but I've done quite a few. I'm glad to see progress (Whether that progress is good or bad) is being made. For the team, even more than the fans, I do hope progress continues being made. Because, regardless of the outcome, it's the road getting there that can cause the most stress.
As far as the purchase of any kind of license goes, I'm not going to comment too far into this. Obviously as a fan, my opinion is bias and I'd love to see it happen but, as a developer, I know first hand how costly it is and that, in their position, I sure as hell couldn't afford it.
In the end, whatever the outcome, as long as the team is satisfied with it, I support their decision. They're the ones that have been putting the work into this and, regardless of the wonderful support some of you have show, us fans have, in reality, just waited for the most part.
So, as always, I wish the team the best of luck and applaud those of you whom support them on a daily basis. Whether it's by simply keeping active on the forums or those of us who are inept at doing so and find other means. Bravo and brava.
P.S.
On a personal note, thank you, Waltz. Regardless of the fact that I may not know you personally, it's always nice to hear a kind word from your fellow people. You're actually one of the supporters I respect the most, despite the fact that you may not have been here as long as some of us, but you seem like a good person. I wish you the best, mate.
Yikes! Very bold decision. But I commend it!
If Phoenix decides it needs to buy the full IP, I will lend what support I can. It took me a while to skim through all this, so I'm not sure who exactly said it before, but it would be in good hands and absolutely worth it.
And in the end, TSL would be canon. Which I dare say many of us likely consider it to be in any case. It may be fueled by fans, but the amount of work going into it makes it much, much more than any mere "fan game."
Whatever happens,
The world revolves around money. It wouldn't be immoral or untrue to the spirit of TSL and King's Quset to commercialize this if that is what needs to be done.
POS set out to give the series a proper conclusion over Mask of Eternity, and the fact that they're still fighting for it is truly inspiring.
Count me as another lurker who has been a quiet fan for some time. (I even tried to be a Beta Tester...did better than I thought I would in the contest!). I've been up rather late reading up on all of this, so once I recharge my batteries with some sleep, I'll throw in my help wherever I can.
Quick question for Waltz before I turn in...can we write our own custom letters and have you mail them to Activision? Or are the form letters preferable? Either way, I'll do my best to contribute once I'm rested. :)
Quote from: Angelic_Sabyne on March 29, 2010, 01:54:26 AM
Count me as another lurker who has been a quiet fan for some time. (I even tried to be a Beta Tester...did better than I thought I would in the contest!). I've been up rather late reading up on all of this, so once I recharge my batteries with some sleep, I'll throw in my help wherever I can.
Quick question for Waltz before I turn in...can we write our own custom letters and have you mail them to Activision? Or are the form letters preferable? Either way, I'll do my best to contribute once I'm rested. :)
I know you asked Waltz, but let me just make this suggestion:
I think if you write your own it is more likely to be read if you send it individually, the form letters Waltz is sending are more of a "this many people think you suck" sort of a thing -- a petition of sorts in that sense. If you don't mind writing a letter that most likely won't be read (as after skimming a few in each box, I'm sure they noticed the letters are basically all the same and stopped reading) then go ahead and send it to Waltz. If you'd like them to read it (which I think would certainly be good), I recommend sending it yourself and sending Waltz one of the form letters as well.
Quotewhy not just combine them so they are one game?
Yonkey already made a post about episodic release schedules and all, so the trend is heading towards more smaller pieces, rather than less but larger parts. Making one massive game out of all chapters would mean the development of the entire series would have to be funded in one go without being able to use profits from preceeding chapters to fund upcoming ones. There's a large risk that half-way through, the project runs out of funds and is then cancelled. This prospect alone would scare off potential investors.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashheh.jpg)
Quote from: Angelic_Sabyne on March 29, 2010, 01:54:26 AM
Quick question for Waltz before I turn in...can we write our own custom letters and have you mail them to Activision? Or are the form letters preferable? Either way, I'll do my best to contribute once I'm rested. :)
I'd have to agree with Cray on this one. I have been sending the form letters to Activision, however if you want me to send it I can. I have not received any new letters this week which is sort of disheartening but keep them coming if you have not sent one yet.
Quote from: Sendaiko on March 29, 2010, 12:05:59 AM
P.S.
On a personal note, thank you, Waltz. Regardless of the fact that I may not know you personally, it's always nice to hear a kind word from your fellow people. You're actually one of the supporters I respect the most, despite the fact that you may not have been here as long as some of us, but you seem like a good person. I wish you the best, mate.
Thank you, Sendaiko. I have not been here as long as many of the people here but I am happy to have been welcomed into a community that was warm and open to new people, and I value your respect, Thanks ;)
Thanks for the answers, Cray and Waltz. I'll definitely try and have you (Waltz) send a form letter on my behalf. I might also send my own non-form letter. There's a chance it'll end up in the nearest recycling bin at Activision, but at least it's one more they'd have to open.
I've noticed things have quieted on the publicity front slightly. I've read the past articles written by the gaming sites and magazines, and I've noticed the response is almost totally positive. It makes me wonder if, in addition to letter-writing and e-mailing Activision, we should also write letters to the Editors of the game magazines, letting them know we're still fighting for this game. It might also help spread the word to folks who haven't heard about the C&D for whatever reason, since not everyone may frequent the website of a game magazine.
I'll do some more checking around, and see if there's anywhere else I can find to spread the word that hasn't already been utilized. I've found a couple more magazines that haven't already done a write-up of the C&D issue, plus there are other sources and forums I might be able to put a few good words into.
Last note. I saw there's a MySpace page and a Facebook Group. Has there been any mention of this on LJ? Any talk of creating a LJ community for saving TSL?
Quote from: waltzdancing on March 29, 2010, 09:16:01 AM
Quote from: Angelic_Sabyne on March 29, 2010, 01:54:26 AM
Quick question for Waltz before I turn in...can we write our own custom letters and have you mail them to Activision? Or are the form letters preferable? Either way, I'll do my best to contribute once I'm rested. :)
I'd have to agree with Cray on this one. I have been sending the form letters to Activision, however if you want me to send it I can. I have not received any new letters this week which is sort of disheartening but keep them coming if you have not sent one yet.
I have mine signed and ready to go... but I can't seem to find a way to get it to you. :-\ If I could send it as an image instead, I could probably email it to you this evening.
That will work too Delling. 8)
One investor that maybe POS could hook up with is Telltale, and maybe EA Games. I know they are another big company but they might like the profits of this game. They also make the Harry Potter games and have a large base of games that vary. Just a thought for anyone to chew on.
I think Cesar works for telltale..... doesn't he?
Quote from: Angelic_Sabyne on March 29, 2010, 10:15:53 AM
I've noticed things have quieted on the publicity front slightly.
Don't worry, there are a lot of places that haven't released their articles yet. I'll keep updating this thread as soon as new interviews come out.
Thats why I suggested it. They might be willing to help or find a group who just likes to invest in games. Some group from the outside that can contribute to help us.
Quote from: Yonkey on March 29, 2010, 10:44:45 AM
Quote from: Angelic_Sabyne on March 29, 2010, 10:15:53 AM
I've noticed things have quieted on the publicity front slightly.
Don't worry, there are a lot of places that haven't released their articles yet. I'll keep updating this thread as soon as new interviews come out.
Thanks, Yonkey. I've been doing a fair bit of poking around, and I'd noticed that the majority of articles were going on a month old. I'll still keep an eye and an ear out for ways to spread the word in the real world here, and I'll definitely report back anything positive I find out.
Sounds like a great idea, Angelic_Sabyne! ;D All I can say at this point is there are some really great interviews to come out in the very near future. 8)
I've contacted over 100 gaming websites over the course of the last month. I'm still keeping an eye out for sites I may have missed... but here is the list (not in any paticular order and not alphabetized):
AblestMage
Adrenaline Vault
Adventure Developers
Aperture Games
AtomicGamer
AusGamers
BigDownload
Bit-Tech
Blue’s News
BoxDen
Colony of Gamers
Destructoid
DTechGadget
The Escapist
EuroGamer
Financeoid
First Frag
FluffySpoon
GameAlmighty
Gamasutra
GameCareerGuide
GameDev
GameInformer
GameKicker
GameRant
GamerBlips
GamerLimit
GamerTell
GamerNook
Games On Net
Geek.com
IncGamers
InfoAddict
Joystiq
Kotaku
LazyGamer
MediaWhoreNetwork
MeoToo
MTV
N4G
NeoSeeker
NewdGamez
Ninstation
One of Swords
PCDaily News
Play.tm
Power On Games
Reddit
Rock, Paper, Shotgun
RPGWatch
ShackNews
Shdon
SierraGamers
SlashDot
SlowDown
Spong
Strategy Informer
TechDirt
Tech-Out
Terminal Gamer
That Videogame Blog
Toms Hardware
Total Format
Total Gaming Network
TweetMeMe
UberVU
VGCharts
Voodoo Extreme
Whispering Rose Game Talk Radio
ZergWatch
Zombie Apocalypse Today
Yahoo Games
GameSpot
Computer And Video Games
1up
IGN
Science Daily
Gamepro
GameZone
CheatCC
Penny Arcade
GiantBomb
GamerShell
GameWinners
Edge-Online
CNN
News-a-rama
The Magic Box
Totally VideoGames
Wired
Engadget
Entertainment Weekly
BBC News
MMORPG Daily
Anime News Network
Spike
VG 24-7
GameIndustry.biz
The Computer Show
Gamestar.de
Computer Gaming World
PC Gamer UK
Orange Lounge Radio
Game Boomers
GameSpy
JustAdventure
Quote from: crayauchtin on March 29, 2010, 02:30:34 AM
I recommend sending it yourself and sending Waltz one of the form letters as well.
That's what I did :yes:
I plan on writing my own letter, as well as sending one of the form letters as well. So just so I'm clear, do we send them to Waltz through e-mail, or send them directly to Activision?
Through the email. You scan in your form letter with your signiture or you can give me permission and I will sign your name on that petition and only that petition. You can also snail mail it if you want.
Is Activision willing to sell their license to another gaming company? If so, the company that bought would have to be convinced that The Silver Lining is a profitable venture- either that or they could just do it out of the goodness of their heart which is unlikely since almost everything revolves around profit nowadays.
Sad day for me to see this news.
I can still remember coming back to my hometown to visit my family and hear my sister "claim" somebody was making a Kings Quest IX. I pretty much got angry because I thought it was all lies since my whole family loved the Kings Quest series. And me, as the computer gamer, would have been the first to know if something such as this was being created.
Sure enough my sister led me to this site and I was absolutely shocked. I registered about 3 years ago, checking on the progress every few months. I'm happy to say, if anything, I atleast got to play the demo. And wow, what memories came back to me. It was like I was a kid again exploring that new world, meeting interesting characters, and cautioning to the twinkling eye.
I would like to thanks those who tried to make this possible. It meant so much more seeing other fans and a small demo than simply letting the series die.
Yours truely,
RottenTomato
Quote from: liggy002 on March 29, 2010, 06:09:25 PM
Is Activision willing to sell their license to another gaming company? If so, the company that bought would have to be convinced that The Silver Lining is a profitable venture- either that or they could just do it out of the goodness of their heart which is unlikely since almost everything revolves around profit nowadays.
I just want to clarify the difference between a license and IP. IP [Intellectual Property], in the gaming world, is the ownership of a franchise and everything related to it. A license is given to allow another entity to use their IP under certain terms, including the ability to terminate, the sharing of profits, and the ownership of the final product. Activision does not have "a licence," but rather has the right to license their IPs to other people.
Of course, with a license comes terms, which both parties would have to be willing to agree to. So in that way, yes, Activision would have to consider what they could get out of selling a commercial license to POS (if it comes down to that).
(Similarly, when you buy software, you don't really own it. Rather, you purchased a license that allows you to use the software under certain conditions, including the possibility of revocation at any time. Read the EULA on any paid for software and you'll see.)
[After three posts on this thread, I finally decided to register so I won't have to double post to make corrections to my posts]
When I said "under certain terms, including..." I meant those as examples of terms under a license agreement, not that a license agreement requires those terms.
Quote from: RottenTomato on March 29, 2010, 06:19:36 PM
Sad day for me to see this news.
I can still remember coming back to my hometown to visit my family and hear my sister "claim" somebody was making a Kings Quest IX. I pretty much got angry because I thought it was all lies since my whole family loved the Kings Quest series. And me, as the computer gamer, would have been the first to know if something such as this was being created.
Sure enough my sister led me to this site and I was absolutely shocked. I registered about 3 years ago, checking on the progress every few months. I'm happy to say, if anything, I atleast got to play the demo. And wow, what memories came back to me. It was like I was a kid again exploring that new world, meeting interesting characters, and cautioning to the twinkling eye.
I would like to thanks those who tried to make this possible. It meant so much more seeing other fans and a small demo than simply letting the series die.
Yours truely,
RottenTomato
The team hasn't given up yet, and neither have we.
http://savetsl.co.cc
TSL Will see the light of day. This happened in 2005, and we made it. (although I was not aware of TSL at the time, I am just speaking for the fans)
Quote from: waltzdancing on March 29, 2010, 02:57:15 PM
Through the email. You scan in your form letter with your signiture or you can give me permission and I will sign your name on that petition and only that petition. You can also snail mail it if you want.
All righty, you'll be getting an e-mail from me soon!
EDIT: I also wanted to add that as an editor (the video kind) I would love to offer my services to TSL in any way shape or form they need them. I've been paid for my work in the past but I would totally offer to edit anything you all would like free of charge. I know you all more than likely all ready have one, I just wanted to make sure is all.
Well... I haven't posted here in years and years, but I just wanted to extend my condolences to the entire team and fanbase for having this project basically wrested out of their hands, kicking and screaming.
I hope something changes, a miracle happens to convince Bobby Kotick to pull his head out of his ass, really anything to allow development to continue in one form or another.
Keep fighting the good fight for independent studios everywhere, guys.
The press this is getting is sort of surreal, actually.
I'll keep my eyes peeled for more. :)
Heyyyyy!!!!! I remember you! :P
Soooo, listen, if you haven't already you should sign all the petitions and such that the Save TSL Movement is putting together: http://savetsl.co.cc/?cat=1
Hey Michael! It's great to see you! Hope things are going well!
So this thread is still going? ::) It reminds me of the hilarious times I had reading the fan posts on the 3DRealms forums. ...you know, the people that refused to admit that DNF was vaporware. Good times.
Seriously though, I'm a huge KQ fan and I was looking forward to TSL for years. But frankly, I just don't care to help when the team isn't even interested in helping themselves. You guys still can't even repost your website and defend your basic rights. Instead, you expect Activision to care when your fans do the only thing you approve of... sign pointless petitions and mail tens of letters. They wouldn't even spend minimum wage on someone to throw your letters away; they'll let the interns do it. At least you gave Activision a good 10-second chuckle when they saw just how quickly you fall for nonsense scare tactics.
To the 30 or so visitors still clinging to a shred of hope that Activision will waste even 2 minutes to reconsider... I hope, for everyone's sake, that I'm wrong. But unfortunately, I'm not. A year from now, this site will be empty or completely gone and Activision will have forgotten what TSL even was (if they haven't already).
Good luck anyway.
Well hey, some of us like looking on the bright side of life and continue to hope no matter what.
Bloodshed, you couldn't be more wrong. The TSL team is working on a proposal to buy something, the messages are a bit mixed right now, but they are trying to get Activision to talk to them. I have been calling Activision since yesterday for someone to follow up on the petitions and to try and get some answers. I know the operator I have been talking too is getting annoyed with me but I will continue to call.
This game will come out even if it needs to be reworked so POS will have their own IP. With a C&D letter, over their heads they are limited with what they can do. As I have said many times on this forum, we will continue to fight and we will continue to be patient and supprotive of the team as we (the fans) are not restricted. The POS Team will continue to give us updates.
I'm sure they appreciate your supportive non-self-gratifying comments, Bloodshed. ::) Thanks for using 5 minutes of your life typing out a comment hundreds of other people have already used 5 minutes of their lives typing out. Even though your words may be spiteful, your willingness to give up that much of your life speaks contrarily. :)
I have nothing really to add. But I just have to ask....
WHY be like that? WHY not help us win the fight against activision.
The way I See it, you can help, taking up hardly any of your time, and that could potentially make all the difference. But you doubting that the game will be released, well that just increases the chances of it not being released.
If you refuse to help and want to be negative that is your business, We went through this type of attitude a few days ago and I will not do it again. However I will say this, I support the TSL team and will do everything in my power to have TSL come into the light, even if that means I am sending letters and calling Actilvision everyday for years. I hate to get this way and my brothers are always telling me that I nag too much but if anyone wants to destroy the team's moral, they will need to get through me!
Indeed, the time you spent typing out that message could have been spent writing a letter to Activision.
And I wholeheartedly am behind waltz.
I have now updated the first post of this thread with a new interview from IncGamers (http://www.incgamers.com/Interviews/261/the-silver-lining-interview). Thanks again, Tim! :)
*pounces upon interview and reads* heh... heh... I've been sort of eagerly awaiting the interviews since you mentioned them... :P
I thought I remembered hearing that... that Activision basically had no clue who you guys were.
I have spoken to someone in Activision! It was just a follow up to the packages I have sent however, they are being very helpful to me. The person whom I spoke to, did see the petitions on someone's desk, and knows a bit about our situation in passing some of the others in the company. I am going to shoot him a email in a moment and he will forward it to the proper athority. I will have your email in there too Yonkey if they want to talk to someone on the TSL team.
Keep the petitions coming becuase I will now be following them up every week with an email and a phone call. Keep your fingers crossed, they know we are here and they know we are not happy.
That's great news, waltzdancing! Have them contact me and I'll take it from there. :)
I have given them your email and have also have sent you one as well with the number I have been using and whom I spoke too. I told them in the email that you will be waiting for a response.
Excellent! XD Thanks again, waltz. ;D
Quote from: BloodShed on March 30, 2010, 06:06:43 PM
So this thread is still going? ::) It reminds me of the hilarious times I had reading the fan posts on the 3DRealms forums. ...you know, the people that refused to admit that DNF was vaporware. Good times.
Seriously though, I'm a huge KQ fan and I was looking forward to TSL for years. But frankly, I just don't care to help when the team isn't even interested in helping themselves. You guys still can't even repost your website and defend your basic rights. Instead, you expect Activision to care when your fans do the only thing you approve of... sign pointless petitions and mail tens of letters. They wouldn't even spend minimum wage on someone to throw your letters away; they'll let the interns do it. At least you gave Activision a good 10-second chuckle when they saw just how quickly you fall for nonsense scare tactics.
To the 30 or so visitors still clinging to a shred of hope that Activision will waste even 2 minutes to reconsider... I hope, for everyone's sake, that I'm wrong. But unfortunately, I'm not. A year from now, this site will be empty or completely gone and Activision will have forgotten what TSL even was (if they haven't already).
Good luck anyway.
Yes, this thread is still going.
Maybe you should try reading it, or any other thread on this website, so you might actually know a little tiny bit about what's going on?
So, just to correct a few minor points...
-Yes, the fans are doing what we can. This is what saved the game last time, so don't tell us it's pointless.
-The team is taking measures of their own, as they've stated several times. They are looking into buying the IP from Activision, among many other courses of action they're considering.
-The mailings that Activision has received already have, in fact, at least gotten TSL some attention from within the company.
I hate to be a bubble burster... but, uhm, there are no facts whatsoever supporting your jaded version of reality, so come join the rest of us on Earth? Just give it a shot for a day, yeah? :D
Sorry for going quiet, life's been hectic for me recently.
I just read the interview you put up, Yonkey. I admit, though I too had heard that Activision had no idea who you all were, it still disappoints me that everything seems to have been treated so casually by them. Not being an industry insider, I wonder if this is a typical thing for companies like this? I also wonder how high this opinion goes up in the Activision food chain. Is it possible that anyone higher than the Legal/PR departments has absolutely no clue about TSL and what's going on? (You'd be surprised at the density of some corporate folks.)
In any case, I'm glad you're getting a response, Waltz. I knew there'd be something, given a bit of time. I also need to sit down this evening and write my own letter to Activision about this mess. If I can finish it, I'll get it to you ASAP. :)
ETA: Hate to waste my keystokes, but I wanted to respond to Mr. Concern Troll upthread.
Quote from: BloodShed on March 30, 2010, 06:06:43 PM
So this thread is still going? ::) It reminds me of the hilarious times I had reading the fan posts on the 3DRealms forums. ...you know, the people that refused to admit that DNF was vaporware. Good times.
Seriously though, I'm a huge KQ fan and I was looking forward to TSL for years. But frankly, I just don't care to help when the team isn't even interested in helping themselves. You guys still can't even repost your website and defend your basic rights. Instead, you expect Activision to care when your fans do the only thing you approve of... sign pointless petitions and mail tens of letters. They wouldn't even spend minimum wage on someone to throw your letters away; they'll let the interns do it. At least you gave Activision a good 10-second chuckle when they saw just how quickly you fall for nonsense scare tactics.
To the 30 or so visitors still clinging to a shred of hope that Activision will waste even 2 minutes to reconsider... I hope, for everyone's sake, that I'm wrong. But unfortunately, I'm not. A year from now, this site will be empty or completely gone and Activision will have forgotten what TSL even was (if they haven't already).
Good luck anyway.
Ha. Buddy, you have no idea what you're talking about.
The reason DNF failed so dramatically isn't even in the same galaxy as why Activision issued their C&D. 3D Realms' efforts went belly-up due (in a nutshell) largely due to Broussard's large ego and his lack of proper planning, as shown in this Wired article http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/12/fail_duke_nukem/. In contrast, this C&D is largely due to a company being penny-wise and pound-foolish. The past few months have shown that Activision is willing to tick off their fan base in the name of profits, even as they tout superior motives.
If you come back in a year, will things be different? Don't know, it's tough to say. I will say, that a lot of us may still be here. Why? Because we're a community. We're here because we enjoy the company and the atmosphere. I know if this forum remains and the game is still unable to be released, I'll come back and talk to others. I love this community, even if I've done more reading than posting. But we're all gonna do our best to get this rolling again, because if we don't, if we assume the game would never be released, then it won't. If we give up, they win by default.
Heh, you shouldn't be too surprised about this. When AGDI was busy getting its license validated, we regularly had to remind our contact at VU who we were again and that was while we were busy getting legal papers drafted. Not everybody at game companies plays games, particularly those who have no direct involvement in game development, nor do they hang out at internet communities. How many big businessmen are avid gamers? Not many, I wager. So, if they don't hang around in adventure-game related online communities, how COULD they have known?
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashlaug.jpg)
True. ;) They have alot of other things going on and those projects not directly related to their community are going to slowly slip away. I wasn't surprised that Activision hadn't heard of TSL. I hadn't heard of it until 2008 and that was just a general Kings Quest search one day by my sister.
I was not surprised by the fact that they didn't know who POS was -- I was surprised that they apparently had no record of the license worked out with Vivendi. That falls on Vivendi's shoulders, most likely, not Activision's. It should have been made certain by Vivendi that the license and all files concerning the license were properly transferred to Activision when the merger happened.
Well what with all the things that go on during mergers it's not surprising it wasn't handled properly, as much as I would have liked it to be. Still though, thanks to us, they know POS is still alive and kickin!
Quote from: Angelic_Sabyne on March 31, 2010, 03:56:01 PM
I know if this forum remains and the game is still unable to be released, I'll come back and talk to others. I love this community, even if I've done more reading than posting.
The forum will definitely remain up. When we received the C&D, I did consider shutting down the entire website, since that's what most people do. But, we had a few days to digest the letter, and during those days I saw how active and close our community was, and I just couldn't bring myself to do it.
So, I did the next best thing: keep the forum up, but remove all TSL-related content. It may have been a little too overprotective, but the thought of losing such a caring community over some small legal technicality was just not worth that risk. It was a tough decision to make, but we adapted, and it ultimately made us stronger.
Don't know if this will have any effect, or if someone else has already posted this (have only been very quickly skimming posts the past couple weeks), but apparently Activisions is reorganizing. linky (http://www.wow.com/2010/03/30/activision-quietly-restructures-senior-management/)
I that is interesting. Maybe that is why everything seems so scattered over there, hopefully the fourth group will listen to us.
I'm not sure if anyone has posted this on another thread, but Joystiq put up a report on their time spent playing the first episode. I'm guessing this was when they talked to Rich at PAX:
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/04/01/hands-on-the-silver-lining-the-game-activison-doesnt-want-you/
DYING!!!!!! I NEED THIS GAME NOW!!! This article just made my mouth water even more. God Activision, this game needs to come out I can feel the whole Kings Quest air about it by just reading!
I've now linked to the Joystiq article in the first post. :)
I agree with waltz!!!!!!! Oh my gosh... PLEASE LET THIS GAME BE RELEASED!!!
Remember, it all comes down to convincing one person to understand and change their mind.
I have posted links to the save TSL site and to these forums in the comments section on the Joystiq article. Reading the comments, it appears that there are people really wanting a new KQ game. Every person who contributes is hopefully one step closer to a release.
Quote from: SurfnSwells80 on April 02, 2010, 07:10:59 AM
I have posted links to the save TSL site and to these forums in the comments section on the Joystiq article. Reading the comments, it appears that there are people really wanting a new KQ game. Every person who contributes is hopefully one step closer to a release.
Thanks SurfnSwells. We are going to keep on top of Activision and hopefully they will change their minds. I'm keeping tabs on the petitions and hope to have a response back next week, I don't really want to call again unless I have too, I think I was driving the operator nuts. :P Hopefully the petitions will start some kind of talks again, that is the first step in my opinion.
Waltz, it is great that the team continues to persist. I can only hope that the remaining chapters will be released as well. An incomplete King's Quest game with no ending would ruin the franchise. I'm just being honest about that. I'm sure that the team will overcome that obstacle as well, I have faith in them. I also hope that the release of the remaining of the Chapters have a place in their talks as well.
Another thing to remember is that if the rumors about Activision selling the Sierra IP are true, in a little while you might be negotiating with a totally different party whether or no Activision grants you any kind of fan license, in which case what they do or don't grant you is actually more or less irrelevant. :P Not that it hurts to move now, but even if Activision is impossible, it might be possible another chance will open up in the future.
Quote from: Petra Rocks on April 02, 2010, 02:19:11 PM
Another thing to remember is that if the rumors about Activision selling the Sierra IP are true, in a little while you might be negotiating with a totally different party whether or no Activision grants you any kind of fan license, in which case what they do or don't grant you is actually more or less irrelevant. :P Not that it hurts to move now, but even if Activision is impossible, it might be possible another chance will open up in the future.
If Activision is looking to sell and POS is looking to buy.... I see an equitable agreement coming our way! :P
Assuming it can afford it. :P
If Activision wants to get rid of the Sierra IP, then they might take the first offer. If POS wants to buy it then they need to look for some type of financing until the sierra IP can start generating revenue and TSL will also be a nice income for them as well.
Mind if I inquire to the origin of the rumors that Activision wants to get rid of the Sierra IP?
As to the first offer thing...that might depend on what that first offer is. I don't think they'll ever be so desperate as to sell the Sierra IP below its value.
I'm not certain how much they'd ask, but when Ken Williams sold Sierra, he got 1.5 billion for it. So let's say the price of all Sierra IP would be about 33% of that by now. That's still 500.000.000 bucks. Most Sierra classics are sold for bargain bin prices between 5 and 20 dollar. That probably includes the last two Leisure Suit Larry games by now. How exactly would you ever make that kind of money back?
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashum.jpg)
(oh goody, I'm post 666)
Quote from: Erpy on April 02, 2010, 04:43:01 PM
I'm not certain how much they'd ask, but when Ken Williams sold Sierra, he got 1.5 billion for it.
Mind if I inquire to the details of that transaction? :P Was that based purely on the value of the IP at the time, or was it more to do with the sale of the company itself? I always assumed it was the latter.
*squeee* new plot bits! :D
Need. game. now.
:'(
I don't know the details myself, though obviously that sum was for the company itself. I have no idea how much of it was the solid stuff like the office building and interior and how much was the intellectual property, distribution rights and goodwill associated with the IP. Ken himself might have a better idea.
That said, now you're here anyway, would you be adverse to clarifying whether the Joystiq article was talking about a commercial license or actual franchises? The article itself has conflicting parts about that.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
You may also want to keep in mind that the Sierra IP may include newer games too. It appears that some games published by Sierra after being purchased by CUC are still part of Sierra while others have been transferred to Activision. However, purchasing the IP of all the old Sierra franchises may be negotiable, if Activision refuses to only sell the King's Quest IP alone.
Of course, a commercial license would likely be cheaper, even if the KQ IP could be purchased by itself, since Activision could negotiate a slice of the profits or give themselves some other advantage through the license rather than give up all rights to KQ. Though it would be nice if they were like "ah, whatever, here's the KQ IP for a reasonable price."
I have looked around for an article stating that Activision wanted to sell Sierra however they were all dated 2008. I think since Activision is selling the games on GOG now that they might want to keep the IP around. We just have to sit tight and let Activision make the next move before we can plan our own next move. Chess is a game that takes time and we've made ours, now we just have to wait.
Here you go Neil. The sad story of Sierra On-Line.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_Entertainment
From the article:
Sold to CUC
"In 1996, CUC International, a membership-based consumer services conglomerate, aggressively sought to expand into interactive entertainment and in February 1996 offered to buy Sierra at a price of approximately $1.5 billion. The company was sold to CUC on July 24, 1996. Immediately after the sale closed, Ken Williams stepped down as CEO of Sierra. Ken stayed with the software division as a Vice President of CUC so that he could provide strategic guidance to Sierra and began to work on CUC's online product distributor, NetMarket. One year later, Ken and Roberta left CUC."
I hope this story ends with a Silver Lining being released for all the fans.
Quote from: Yonkey on April 02, 2010, 04:51:10 PM
Quote from: Erpy on April 02, 2010, 04:43:01 PM
I'm not certain how much they'd ask, but when Ken Williams sold Sierra, he got 1.5 billion for it.
Mind if I inquire to the details of that transaction? :P Was that based purely on the value of the IP at the time, or was it more to do with the sale of the company itself? I always assumed it was the latter.
The entire company was sold in July 1996--so 1.5 billion was for the WHOLE company, including IPs, physical studios, etc.
(Posted on: April 03, 2010, 08:51:55 PM)
Quote from: Erpy on April 02, 2010, 06:33:50 PM
I don't know the details myself, though obviously that sum was for the company itself. I have no idea how much of it was the solid stuff like the office building and interior and how much was the intellectual property, distribution rights and goodwill associated with the IP. Ken himself might have a better idea.
That said, now you're here anyway, would you be adverse to clarifying whether the Joystiq article was talking about a commercial license or actual franchises? The article itself has conflicting parts about that.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
I had heard Activision would be willing to sell each IP separately--For example I heard at one point a buyer was looking to buy the IP to Space Quest; Codemasters purchased Leisure Suit Larry.
Codesmasters didn't buy the IP. When Activision and Vivindi merged, the title was dropped and codesmasters picked it up. That was according to an article that I read. I think it would be cool is POS could buy the IP, but we need to wait and see what they say first
According to this page (http://www.sierragamers.com/aspx/Blob2/BlobPage.aspx?msgid=669573), written in Ken's own words:
"I did make a call to see if Sierra could be bought back, but have no idea how I would raise the $500 million or so it might take."
Obviously, that's a lot less than $1.5 billion, so I guess that means the company's monetary value has gone way down since it was sold.
That i.5 billion was for the building too. POS just wants Kings Quest and I think Activision might want to work something out. Like I said before, I am following up on the petition letters and if I have the time, and if Yonkey has not been contacted yet, I will start to ask more questions. Money talks and I think if Activision can be persuaded to grant a commercial licence, which I don't think the fans will have a problem raising some of the money, they will see how much money they can make from this game and all they did was gain, they spent nothing on it. I hope they see that with this deal.
I hope this made sense to those who read it.
I have no idea where the rumors originate, I imagine I must have hear them here since I don't read anything relating to Activision otherwise. :P Anyway, before any of this buying talks means anything you'll have to get an actual price quote from somebody, not try to guess based on what a different package of IP's and other buildings and what not sold for over a decade ago. :P Until then it's just wind in the grass, as we say.
Anybody considered that the difference in costs between a commercial license and buying a well-known franchise is probably enough to hire a team of industry professionals to replace the game's visuals and programming with something that matches today's technological demands? How much would the bragging rights of owning a franchise really be worth?
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashum.jpg)
I hope Activision will grant a commercial license but even if they don't maybe they will sell just the Kings Quest IP, they have already ripped apart the franchise when they dropped some titles when the merger happened. Like I have said many times, we just need to wait and see.
waltz, I know you said you were calling Activision and they were getting obviously miffed with all the calls. I feel like if more people were to call they wouldn't think it's just one fan, but a much larger group of people.
I do understand we don't want the number right on the "Save TSL" pages since some people may call and be very hostile about it.
FYI, further information about calling Activision is in this thread (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8454.0).
so what if this gets me banned..
f*** off activision. Like you were going to do anything with the name.
I say rename everything in the game,and release it anyway.
Quote from: Josh on April 12, 2010, 12:08:24 PM
so what if this gets me banned..
f*ck off activision. Like you were going to do anything with the name.
I say rename everything in the game,and release it anyway.
Read the thread. Read the interviews (http://savetsl.co.cc/?page_id=47). Read the website (http://savetsl.co.cc).
You will find some great information.
Oh my giddy aunt...
Whatever happened to being positive?
We are coming up on 2 months and that is how long it took for the issue with TSL to be resolved before so I think people are starting to get really frustrated that the issue with having TSL released will not ever happen.
Quote from: Dan on April 13, 2010, 12:01:47 PM
We are coming up on 2 months and that is how long it took for the issue with TSL to be resolved before so I think people are starting to get really frustrated that the issue with having TSL released will not ever happen.
I'm sorry, I don't understand your post.
We're coming up on 2 months which is about how long it took for this to get resolved last time.
Soooo we're getting frustrated and leaving angry posts on the forums instead of being positive that we're coming up on two months? I don't see the logic here. Is this like, the Emperor's New Logic? :P
Quote from: crayauchtin on April 13, 2010, 12:19:36 PM
Quote from: Dan on April 13, 2010, 12:01:47 PM
We are coming up on 2 months and that is how long it took for the issue with TSL to be resolved before so I think people are starting to get really frustrated that the issue with having TSL released will not ever happen.
I'm sorry, I don't understand your post.
We're coming up on 2 months which is about how long it took for this to get resolved last time.
Soooo we're getting frustrated and leaving angry posts on the forums instead of being positive that we're coming up on two months? I don't see the logic here. Is this like, the Emperor's New Logic? :P
haha.
I see what they mean. Lat time this happened, it took 2 months, this time, it is evidently taking longer.
so what. activision is slow.
haha
I doubt that they could just rename the characters without legal intervention. The IP must include the scenery, story, character appearances, and anything else that distinguishes the series in addition to the names. Purchasing the IP seems to be the way to go if the company will not grant a license and is willing to sell the IP. I'm not sure what the IP would sell for.
Quote from: liggy002 on April 13, 2010, 11:51:34 PM
I doubt that they could just rename the characters without legal intervention. The IP must include the scenery, story, character appearances, and anything else that distinguishes the series in addition to the names. Purchasing the IP seems to be the way to go if the company will not grant a license and is willing to sell the IP. I'm not sure what the IP would sell for.
yeah. In one of the interviews, Someone said that they might do that as a LAST resort, but it would take forever to get rid of all KQ references and take another couple of years.
So for now, sign the petitions, shoot activision an email, call them, and eventually they need to realize. Please don't say fvck off activision when you talk to them though... not cool...
sorry, just mad :P
what else is there to say, after they pull the plug after 7 years in the making?
I think I'd say more than the F word. :P
Quote from: Josh on April 14, 2010, 08:51:50 AM
sorry, just mad :P
what else is there to say, after they pull the plug after 7 years in the making?
I think I'd say more than the F word. :P
I agree and understand that you would want to cuss the hell out of them, but that is not gonna work. After all, you would be surprised that a lot of activision is actually helping us out. Read this thread:
http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8454.0
waltzdancing here on the forum has been talking to activision and reasoning things out for a while here. Talk to her.
http://www.savetsl.co.cc/ GO TSL!! XB !!! !!! !!! XB
Kitty Edit: Now promotes TSL :cat:
.......welcome to the forum! ;D
That's not even clever "I'm pretending not to be spam". :(
Quote from: crayauchtin on April 15, 2010, 11:10:49 AM
That's not even clever "I'm pretending not to be spam". :(
yea I know :P
Quote from: number one music inc on April 15, 2010, 08:59:04 AM
http://www.savetsl.co.cc/ GO TSL!! XB !!! !!! !!! XB
Kitty Edit: Now promotes TSL :cat:
hahaha :P
Quote from: number one music inc on April 15, 2010, 08:59:04 AM
http://www.savetsl.co.cc/ GO TSL!! XB !!! !!! !!! XB
Kitty Edit: Now promotes TSL :cat:
Lol! Now that's what I call making the best of a bad situation!
what is wrong with you guys?
welcome to the forum anyway! :P
all this spam must mean this site is getting a lot of hits or something. cool.
The spam can be a good thing or a bad thing. Its good because people are looking at the forum, its also bad because it could be a sign of them just picking on us. However with that said, I think with all the goofing off they have been doing, I guess they will fit in perfectly around here.
You say that as if these are real people spamming the forum...they're just bots.
Perhaps, The TSL forum here could have an authenticator like copying a word to prove your human like other sites have.
the thing is they didn't register. THey just used the guest accounts. After this is resolved, I am thinking guest accounts won't be allowed.
As long as people can have a say elsewhere where they do not have to register, I think going back to the old registration policy would be nice for most. Requiring registration everywhere could block great ideas from coming through (even though the guests so far haven't exactly been great thinkers).
There are non-registering forums that counter spam either with implemented coding programs or numerous moderators from around the world, present on the board at all times.
Quote from: Yonkey on February 27, 2010, 08:59:56 PM
To Our Fans:
In 2005, Phoenix Online Studios received a Cease & Desist letter from Vivendi Universal, the owners of the King's Quest IP, in regards to our work on The Silver Lining. We complied with the request, and over the months that followed, we were able to work out a non-commercial fan license with Vivendi that allowed us to continue our work on the game.
We have spent a lot of time recently reworking the material of The Silver Lining into episodic releases, with the first out of a planned five episodes completed, and submitted for review, and had hoped we would be able to bring our game to you, the fans, in the Spring of 2010.
Recently, however, ownership of the Sierra IP changed hands and became the property of Activision. After talks and negotiations in the last few months between ourselves and Activision, they have reached the decision that they are not interested in granting a non-commercial license to The Silver Lining, and have asked that we cease production and take down all related materials on our website.
As before, we must and will comply with this decision, as much as we may wish we could do otherwise.
We cannot say enough how much we appreciate the support we have had over these years from our fans. Without you, we would never have gotten this far. There would be no game to develop, and no one to develop it for. You have been amazing and steadfast, and we will always remember that and appreciate it more than we can say.
Sadly, after eight years of dedicated work and even more dedicated fans, The Silver Lining project is closing down.
What the future holds for us, as individuals or a team, we cannot say. We have an amazing development team, however, filled with talented and hard-working individuals, and we hope the teamwork and rapport we've developed won't go to waste. We hope that when we do know what the future holds for us, our fans will be there to enjoy what we can give them still.
Again, thank you all so much for everything. This has been a long and crazy road, full of more twists than we could've anticipated, but more triumphs and wonderful memories than we could've ever hoped for. And for that, to all of you and to everyone on our team, we will always be grateful.
Thank You,
The Silver Lining Development Team
UPDATE:
Here are a few related links of interest:
Save TSL Petition (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8398.0) - Petition link: here (http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/savetsl/)
Save TSL Facebook Group (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=382202612795&ref=mf)
Save TSL MySpace Page (http://www.myspace.com/savetsl)
Form Letter for Contacting Gaming Websites (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8397.0)
Form Letter for Contacting Activision (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8406.0)
List of websites discussing C&D (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8416.0)
TSL Demographics Survey (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8435.0)
Interviews:
ShDon Interview (http://www.shdon.com/blog/2010/03/14/the-silver-lining-followup-an-interview-with-the-team)
MediaWhoreNetwork Interview - Part One (http://www.mediawhorenetwork.com/2010/03/restore-restart-quit-an-interview-with-phoenix-online-studios-part-one/) and Two (http://www.mediawhorenetwork.com/2010/03/restore-restart-quit-an-interview-with-phoenix-online-studios-part-two/)
IncGamers Interview (http://www.incgamers.com/Interviews/261/the-silver-lining-interview)
Joystiq Preview (http://www.joystiq.com/2010/04/01/hands-on-the-silver-lining-the-game-activison-doesnt-want-you/)
Hmm... was that spam too or was that to get us back on topic?
either way....
BACK ON TOPIC :P
When I saw the original post again (thanks to that weirdo ::)) I noticed an interesting sentence:
"After talks and negotiations in the last few months between ourselves and Activision, they have reached the decision that they are not interested in granting a non-commercial license to The Silver Lining, and have asked that we cease production and take down all related materials on our website."
So there HAS been communication with Activision? With who? And what form was the C&D in? A letter? An email? Who exactly was it from?
I'm wondering about these things because our main problem right now seems to be in getting Activision - especially the people at the top - to talk to us or even acknowledge our existence. But it's strange that the same people who were willing to talk directly to us before would be so aloof now.
http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8454.0
We are getting activision to notice us. As for the team, I dunno, and I dunno if they are allowed to talk about it on a public forum either. You never know.
What we can do now is call activision. I still haven't. My ability to be civil and not cuss and yell at them is unfortunately not very good. I have emailed them though and Done most of the other stuff.
Anyway, yeah. Call activision and make us un invisible!
spammy needsta stop already. I used to have all kinds of SMF (that's shat this forum software is right?) hacks and stuff that could block spam, but I think it only worked with blocking people from REGISTERING. The code thing doesn't help much, although there are some variations that help by blending different colors and making it more complex.
anyway......
back on topic.
QuoteSo there HAS been communication with Activision? With who? And what form was the C&D in? A letter? An email? Who exactly was it from?
Of course there's been communication. The team themselves said that Activision wasn't aware of their existence until they contacted them and asked to review the finished content. The game didn't make it through the legal deparment and they were the ones who sent a C&D-letter. (most likely an email, though it could have been an actual letter)
That said, I don't think the team is going to give out the contact info of those they spoke to for the fans to vent to. The results would be messy.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashum.jpg)
More SAVE TSL (http://www.savetsl.co.cc/)
KITTY EDIT: more editing of spam :cat:
(http://mooseharris.sevenpennynightmare.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/spam.jpg)
*sigh*
Quote from: Erpy on April 17, 2010, 05:37:09 AM
QuoteSo there HAS been communication with Activision? With who? And what form was the C&D in? A letter? An email? Who exactly was it from?
Of course there's been communication. The team themselves said that Activision wasn't aware of their existence until they contacted them and asked to review the finished content. The game didn't make it through the legal deparment and they were the ones who sent a C&D-letter. (most likely an email, though it could have been an actual letter)
That said, I don't think the team is going to give out the contact info of those they spoke to for the fans to vent to. The results would be messy.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashum.jpg)
there must have been. I mean it's not just like *sends c&d* and that's all. They must have discussed it at least a little.
I didn't know if anyone had already done this, but I went ahead and sent an e-mail to EFF, asking if they can offer any sort of assistance or guidance on this. I pointed them to this forum, in case they wanted to reach out to us community members. I also aimed them at Yonkey's e-mail, in case they need to directly interface with the team. (I figure Yonkey's the best one to reach the creative team through.)
Here is the letter I sent to EFF:
Quote
Dear EFF:
I am a member of the forums for the fan game The Silver Lining. In case the name is unfamiliar to you, it is the unofficial fan-made sequel to the King's Quest series originally published by Sierra in the 80s and 90s. Phoenix Online Studios was creating this game in an attempt to breathe new life into a series that had a lackluster eighth installment back in 1998, and they had no intentions of selling the game or making any sort of profit from it.
After Vivendi issued a C&D against the development team in 2005, the team was able to secure a fan license after negotiating with the company. However, the IP for the old Sierra titles has since passed to Activision when it was purchased by Vivendi, and the game has been shut down by a new C&D from Activision. Not only has the game been shut down, but any and all material related to it on the main TSL website (http://www.tsl-game.com ) Understandably, both the creative team and those of us who are fans of the game are devastated.
Our community has not given up on TSL, however. As you may have heard through the online community, we have been conducting a petition drive, as well as letter writing and calling campaigns to try and reach some sort of compromise with Activision. So far, there has been no response from them, though some individuals within the company are well-aware of our efforts and may be trying to spread the word internally.
I am writing you this evening to ask you for any advice or assistance you can give to our community. This has been a huge blow to us all, and any attempts to reach out to the creative team and the fans would be greatly appreciated, even if no assistance can be given. This is a game that many people were waiting for, one that would spark a renewed interest in this old series. We understand Activision's wish to maintain control of its IP rights, but feel that shutting down a fan project that would have taken no money from the company is an unwise decision.
If you do wish to get in touch with our community, this thread will give you a place to talk to us fans and obtain any feedback you might require: http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8394.0 If you need to speak with the creative team directly, your best contact would be the Web Director, who can get you in touch with the team. His e-mail address is neil.rodrigues@postudios.com.
I apologize if this is a duplicate request, but I had not heard of anyone contacting you about this matter. I want to make sure all possible options are utilized in saving this game. As I said before, any assistance you can give on this matter is appreciated.
Thank you for your time.
Love TSL (http://www.savetsl.co.cc/)
KITTY EDIT: Bye bye spam! :cat:
Quote from: Angelic_Sabyne on April 18, 2010, 12:48:29 AM
(I figure Yonkey's the best one to reach the creative team through.)
Definitely.
Like I said, I'll be sure to notify you of any new developments. 8)
Quote from: Yonkey on April 18, 2010, 05:52:36 AM
Quote from: Angelic_Sabyne on April 18, 2010, 12:48:29 AM
(I figure Yonkey's the best one to reach the creative team through.)
Definitely.
Like I said, I'll be sure to notify you of any new developments. 8)
Great. :)
If I receive any responses from EFF, I'll definitely post them here and let you know as well.
Quote from: Erpy on April 17, 2010, 05:37:09 AM
I don't think the team is going to give out the contact info of those they spoke to for the fans to vent to. The results would be messy.
Don't worry; personal attacks weren't my intention. I just thought that it would be helpful to know where, exactly, in the company we should aim our complaints. The different departments probably have different phone numbers, email addresses, etc. Knowing that the LEGAL Department sent the C&D definitely helps.
By the way, I'm probably the only one here who doesn't know this, but what does "EFF" stand for? :-[
Quote from: RollingStone on April 19, 2010, 12:34:51 PM
By the way, I'm probably the only one here who doesn't know this, but what does "EFF" stand for? :-[
http://tinyurl.com/db7se4
I didn't know either. Google is your friend though.
Nice!
Btw, Activision Blizzard profits are up -- :o
"Activision Blizzard Inc. . . . company now expects 2010 earnings of 72 cents a share up from previous forecast of 70 cents. . . . boost comes from strong global demand for the World of Warcraft and Call of Duty games said Chief Executive Bobby Kotick.
Wall Street Journal Fri. April 16, 2010 -- page B4
think they would be nice to TSL if it could get interest up in King's Quest again and make them more money if not for any other reason -- :-\
Just sit tight everyone, Yonkey has said it is going to be a creative week so he is clearly up to something. Keep your fingers crossed and keep pressuring them.
Back on the subject of buying the KQ rights from Activision if the petitions don't work, if you go for a donation campaign (but there's probably better plans), I hope you'll handle it better than the current petition campaign is handled. The petitions campaign should have been ready the moment you announced the cancellation of TSL to the press, not a week later.
If you are serious about this, you must get everything ready before the first announcement. If you need as many payment method as possible, you got to do it before the campaign begins. You must prepare a list of websites and forums to announce your project. Every gaming news and reviewing websites out there: Joystiq, Destructoid, The Escapist, Gamasutra, Gamespot... Indie sites like Indiegames.com, TIGSource or Jayisgames, every adventure games sites you can think of: Sierra sites, Lucasarts sites like Mixnmojo or Telltale, even Monkey Island sites and forums. Adventure games development sites like AGAST, Adventure Developers, AGS, Wintermute... adventure reviewing sites, like JustAdventures, Adventure Gamer or Adventure Treff, any abandonware websites you can think of, Abandonia, Underdogs, GOG.com... even gaming sites and forums in foreign languages, everyone interested in King's Quest, Sierra, adventure games, old games or indie games should be aware of your project.
You must reach critical mass, you must reach momentum speed if you want to get the money needed to buy the rights. The moment the machine is started, it shouldn't stop.
That's all I have to say.
The petition campaign is being handled by the fans. POS didn't put up the campaign themselves because they felt that they might step on Activision's legal department's toes.
I'm very skeptical of the public donation idea and I doubt POS will go that route. First of all, you probably need WAY more money than a handful of fans can bring together and if no deal could be made, it'd be a big hassle getting the refunds to people with the cut entities like Paypal take. And even if the rights were bought and a few years later sold again for a higher price, how would you go about giving each of the original contributors his fair share? It's probably better for the worms to remain in that particular can. If POS intends to go commercial, they probably have a funding party already.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashum.jpg)
sorry if the petition is being handled poorly.
It isn`t official. It was started mainly by oberonqa on the forums here, with help from lotsa people, including me.
you may notice, if you go to the website, that my screen name is under all the posts, and not someone on the team.
it was started a week later because that`s how long it took for us to organised something. I didn`t see the announcement until the day after it was posted, because I was busy with school.
annnnyyway....
i will stop venting, now you understand.
sign tha petition and all that jazz.
Your work on the Save TSL campaign has been great guys, don't doubt that at all! We appreciate it immensely. :)
And though we appreciate that people would be willing to donate to support us, as Erpy said, that's a complicated thing that I highly doubt we'd ever end up doing. But again, the spirit of that willingness and support is what keeps us going and keeps us fighting. :)
I think the petition organization is going really well. We are fans scattered all around the world, certainly it was going to take time. I was so shocked when I read that email and it took me awhile to finally come to an understanding and raise my sword and start to fight. It really was only a day or two after the C&D when the Save TSL Movement began, it took a week before we were noticed.
The donations probably aren't a good idea, but it is always the thought that counts. POS said they would look into the idea of buying if the on-line movement of ours doesn't work, we need to keep fighting everyone and encourage POS to never give up hope.
Out of idle curiosity, about how many signatures and such did it take to get VU to talk to you, and how many do you have now? :P
I don't think it took any signatures. VU was open to considering alternative options pretty much from the get-go...the C&D was merely to make certain that no matter how things would play out, unauthorized development would not continue.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashshp.jpg)
For us, it was at least a couple hundred petitions that I sent in to VU for SaveKQIX. I think Cesar or Neil said it arrived right at the same time that they were going to talk to VU.
Quote from: Erpy on February 28, 2010, 03:49:34 AM
To the people wondering if Activision-Blizzard can do this...legally, I'm afraid they can. The contract the TSL-team went into with VU a few years ago could be terminated by either party at any time.
To the posters asking...the difference with AGD Interactive was the fact that by the time VU Games was taken over by Activision, KQ1VGA, KQ2+ and QFG2VGA were already out and even Activision probably realized that shutting down the official source would just result in a lot of unofficial mirrors. So we were allowed to keep going for the time being. (yeah, that last part was not my imagination, so if any of you fans are planning to write an angry letter to Activision...kindly focus on TSL and keep AGD Interactive out of it...it's too late for them to pull KQ1, KQ2 and QFG2, but I'd hate to see the site being ordered to close)
I knew how harsh Activision's ideas about their IP were and expected TSL's "review" to be a vicious tug-of-war to get it out, but I didn't think they'd pull the rug from under you at this stage. That word litigation set the hairs of my neck on end. I'm very sorry to hear this. I can't imagine a more anticlimactic way years of work can end. You've achieved a lot over the years. It's a shame this ends in such a downer. :-[
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashsad.jpg)
Shut the hell up Erpy.
I'm guessing by your forum name that you aren't fond of copywrite but Erpy is correct, whether you like it or not. We are all on the same side, Erpy is the realist and every group needs one. Negative comments don't get us anywhere if we start to fight amongst ourselves.
We're all in this together! (http://www.savetsl.co.cc/)
KITTY EDIT: Got rid of spam :cat:
Oh spam. How we don't adore thee
Quote from: waltzdancing on April 22, 2010, 05:25:49 PM
I'm guessing by your forum name that you aren't fond of copywrite but Erpy is correct, whether you like it or not. We are all on the same side, Erpy is the realist and every group needs one. Negative comments don't get us anywhere if we start to fight amongst ourselves.
yes. We are all on the same side.
*starts singing*
WERE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER!
hahahahahaahaha
anyway, yes. Erpy has been very helpful. If you disagree with him, that is your own decision, but I think he is right on with that.
Quote from: Erpy on April 21, 2010, 03:09:22 AM
I don't think it took any signatures. VU was open to considering alternative options pretty much from the get-go...the C&D was merely to make certain that no matter how things would play out, unauthorized development would not continue.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashshp.jpg)
Huh. Sounds a little grim, I doubt a couple of thousand people signing an online petition will really have anyone quaking if they are really determined not to budge. Yonkey might be right, you might have better luck buttonholing someone of the Activision brass and talking him over than trying to do overawe them with your petition. Can't hurt to at least get somebodies attention though.
Anyway, I am speculating about internal negotiations that I don't know anything about, so maybe I'm totally off. :P
Quote from: thecopyrightdestroyer on April 21, 2010, 10:15:19 PM
Shut the hell up Erpy.
That's not how we do things around here. Show the other people on the forum due respect. Erpy's been a supporter of our game for years, and we appreciate that, as well as his insight. On top of which, nothing he said in that post wasn't true.
If you disagree with someone, you can express that without being rude or nasty.
Quote from: thecopyrightdestroyer on April 21, 2010, 10:15:19 PM
Quote from: Erpy on February 28, 2010, 03:49:34 AM
To the people wondering if Activision-Blizzard can do this...legally, I'm afraid they can. The contract the TSL-team went into with VU a few years ago could be terminated by either party at any time.
To the posters asking...the difference with AGD Interactive was the fact that by the time VU Games was taken over by Activision, KQ1VGA, KQ2+ and QFG2VGA were already out and even Activision probably realized that shutting down the official source would just result in a lot of unofficial mirrors. So we were allowed to keep going for the time being. (yeah, that last part was not my imagination, so if any of you fans are planning to write an angry letter to Activision...kindly focus on TSL and keep AGD Interactive out of it...it's too late for them to pull KQ1, KQ2 and QFG2, but I'd hate to see the site being ordered to close)
I knew how harsh Activision's ideas about their IP were and expected TSL's "review" to be a vicious tug-of-war to get it out, but I didn't think they'd pull the rug from under you at this stage. That word litigation set the hairs of my neck on end. I'm very sorry to hear this. I can't imagine a more anticlimactic way years of work can end. You've achieved a lot over the years. It's a shame this ends in such a downer. :-[
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashsad.jpg)
Shut the hell up Erpy.
Yea! How is it possible not leave out AGD Interactive out of it in those letters?
Activision needs to realize how un fair they treated us!
To people wondering...at AGDI we have a guy who calls himself Copyright Destroyer on our boards about once a year. He pops up, tries to stir up as much trouble as possible and then he either leaves or he gets tired of reregistering new accounts that are subsequently banned/deleted. Ignore him. He never contributes anything substancial. He merely wants to mess with people.
QuoteYea! How is it possible not leave out AGD Interactive out of it in those letters?
Activision needs to realize how un fair they treated us!
Because "you let AGDI release stuff" is a rather weak "tu quoque" argument that's unlikely to convince anyone at Activision of letting TSL off the hook...it doesn't point out why it'd be of benefit to them to revoke the C&D and suggests that Activision is playing favorites while there may be different circumstances applying to AGDI and POS that people don't know about.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashsnc2.jpg)
I'm not a spam bot (http://www.savetsl.co.cc/)
KITTY EDIT: No spam anymore! :cat:
I see spm bots are already trying to flood this place. please be careful.
Well I tried to help out this project and I hope the petitions will work but actually...I think maybe only if Ken and Roberta Williams were to support it..maybe then Activiosion would be more cooperative. At least to return to negotiating this. I'm not holding much breath. Apparently, insert irony here: KQ 8 are their best-selling games right now and they desperately need to protect the brand value.
I know there have been some mentions of license purchase and I know i would buy the game from you guys were it to be a commercial release it's just that all of this is disheartening.
I'm still keeping fingers crossed for this though.
Regards,
The constant observer, Margaret.
As far as I know, you really don't have to remove your forums (and I feel u overreacted by doing this), despite what they asked you to do. They do not own the title and even if they did, you forum is yours, no matter what you call it.
Ask for a legal advice. All you have to do is remove any previews, demos or pictures of the game and they can't do ANYTHING to close the forum.
Quote from: Erpy on April 22, 2010, 11:38:55 PM
it doesn't point out why it'd be of benefit to them to revoke the C&D
We've actually spent months pointing out the benefits to them. The choice to change their mind is in their hands, and their hands alone.
Whats happening over at Activision now? Has anyone heard anything back from them? And... if they refuse to comply with the petition's request, what is the next step?
Thank you for keeping the forum going and I sincerely hope that all of your hard work doesn't go to waste.
Here (http://www.sierragamers.com/aspx/blob2/blobpage.aspx?msgid=634063&bbs=Topic.219639.530202) is a link to an interesting interview with Ken Williams about "The Silver Lining" on the SierraGamers forums. Has anyone here heard of Matt Edwards or seen his article?
Hrm. It looks like Ken hasn't really seen any of the screenshots/alpha release footage. It seems like he is unaware that the beginning of the game takes place on the Green Isles and the scenes are modeled directly off of the images KQVI. The resemblance between the two obviously puts TSL within the KQ universe, even if all dialog and names were changed... [and even changing the dialog would be a grueling task, what with needing to get voice actors to do all the parts over again]
The sad part of this is Activision does not care. I sent them a certified letter with return receipt at the end of last month and got no reply from them. I play World of Warcraft but now am bored with it and realize Activision doesn't care about gamers so I am now going to quit WOW.
I have a brother who is an attorney so if anyone has any legal questions regarding the game I may be able to help answer them. Although he is not that type of attorney, he may know someone who is knowledgeable about video game/IP law. I'm not sure if you can change around the names and get away with it but it doesn't seem likely.
I doubt it's that they don't care about customers, just you are a little too small. Your petition has under 2500 signatures, and I assume fewer people actually stopped buying something. With Wow alone having over 10 million players, they probably get more hostile emails and threats to quit when they fiddle with the attack spells of some Wow class than what this has generated. :P
Thus I'd put more faith in talking a VU ex into thinking this will be good for the company than browbeating them into submission with boycotts and petitions. :P
Quote from: Petra Rocks on April 24, 2010, 12:23:24 PM
I doubt it's that they don't care about customers, just you are a little too small. Your petition has under 2500 signatures, and I assume fewer people actually stopped buying something. With Wow alone having over 10 million players, they probably get more hostile emails and threats to quit when they fiddle with the attack spells of some Wow class than what this has generated. :P
Thus I'd put more faith in talking a VU ex into thinking this will be good for the company than browbeating them into submission with boycotts and petitions. :P
Wow Petra... I wonder if the army at Thermopoly felt the same way when the Persian army came knocking...
That being said... at least we're doing something to try to affect change. It may be small... it may not be much... but it IS something.
Quote from: Petra Rocks on April 24, 2010, 12:23:24 PM
I doubt it's that they don't care about customers, just you are a little too small. Your petition has under 2500 signatures, and I assume fewer people actually stopped buying something.
Not true. We're up to 2,614! (http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/savetsl/)
Thermopylae sounds well, but it was foolish and anyway it was Plataea that won the war. You win by playing to your strengths and denying the enemy your weaknesses. I'm not saying that it's a bad idea to sign these petitions. It's not, giving them a petition is another way to get in their face and have a hearing. I'm just saying that the only path to success I can see doesn't lie in compelling them release the C&D due to a mass boycott, you don't have the numbers.
The only way I can see to win is to get somebodies ear and convince them that allowing TSL to go out is good for the bottom line. Find out who exactly make the decision, and try to talk to him. Find out what their concerns are and try to address them. Are they worried about setting a precedent that other people can use their IP? They remain in control and the massive effort it takes to make a game mean it is not likely this would spiral out of control. Point out how it would revitalize an ancient product line and if it becomes popular, they could sell the KQ IP for considerably more than it is worth now. Was it just a form letter? Maybe a petition would be good there, to make somebody in an important position actually spend half an hour looking at it. For them the worse it flops and nothing happens, it's not likely to hurt the already low value of the IP involved.
Probably the team knows all this perfectly well and is or has tried these channels. But for all your not unjust wrath, the path to success here doesn't lie in browbeating Activision, tempting as it must seem.
If that doesn't work, the best recourse is to either wait until Activision sells or goes out of business or merges, or remake the game. The former is unpredictable, the latter hard and arguably detracts from the point of making it to begin with. It seems very unlikely that Activision will be intimidated by a few thouand people signing an internet petition though. :-\
The idea was never to intimidate or to rally a boycott... My thoughts regarding a boycott are (or should be) well known... but I will say it again.
A boycott would hurt retailers more than it would hurt Activision. I cannot and will not condone a course of action that could have such widespread effects on people that are not even remotely connected to Activision's decision.
That being said, the idea behind the petitions is to garner attention, which it has done quite well. It shows an active interest in the game in question (TSL) and it provides an anchor for journalists to latch onto and do their reporting.
And in those two areas, the petitions are doing exactly what they were meant to do.
Er, I know this is probably a dumb idea, but has anyone tried straight up bribery? "Let the project continue and you can have a couple thousand bucks?" I'd give 'em a couple thousand bucks. There are probably buckets of legal whatnot standing in the way of that simple solution though.
Petra Rocks has two good thoughts--1 if we knew what their reason for the C&D is, we'd have a better chance of convincing them they're making the wromng decision. If only someone at Activision would talk to us.
And 2-- hey TSL folks, keep your data safe! The copyright may move again!
(Am I the only one feeling supersorry for the TSL programmers? After EIGHT YEARS of work! I'd be ready to commit some fairly serious crimes if someone killed a project I'd spent eight years on.)
LOL, I think those lawyers make WAY too much money the legitimate way to be swayed to ignore their employer's interests (and harm their career) over a couple of thousand bucks.
The reason for the C&D would be a mixture of laziness and unwillingness to deal with fangames. It's like the interview with the team says...the legal dept had to finish a couple of legal procedures to make the game's release possible and couldn't be bothered to put manhours into something they did not support to begin with.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
Quote from: cupcakedoll on April 25, 2010, 10:22:24 PM
Er, I know this is probably a dumb idea, but has anyone tried straight up bribery? "Let the project continue and you can have a couple thousand bucks?" I'd give 'em a couple thousand bucks. There are probably buckets of legal whatnot standing in the way of that simple solution though.
Haha, I believe in the biz they just call that 'buying a license.' It has a nicer ring to it. ;)
That is a MUCH nicer ring to it. Sounds much more legitimate and less back alley like.
Money talks and B.S. walks, thats the saying and it holds true. If you flash enough money in front of Activision, see how fast their tune changes.
http://www.activision.com/ROOT/media/sweepstakes/indie_game/Indie%20Game%20Competition%20FINAL%20-%20WEB.pdf
I say TSL get's submitted to this. Just to see what happens.
Quote from: Alyssa on April 27, 2010, 09:54:28 AM
http://www.activision.com/ROOT/media/sweepstakes/indie_game/Indie%20Game%20Competition%20FINAL%20-%20WEB.pdf
I say TSL get's submitted to this. Just to see what happens.
someone suggested that like 30 pages ago.
I don`t think it would work.
Thus spake Spamythustra...
Feel free to disable Guest accounts. I actually have a regular account here.
;) 8) :P (Since there is so much SPAM now coming in)
Damn. Yeah, we might want to after that streak especially, wow.
tis alright. Once the C&D is resolved, we can disable guest accounts. For now, its good. It gets more people talking here when they might not want to register. youknow?
whoa.
I just went through 5 ``ẁhile you were typing, a new reply was posted`` things.
this is crazy. never seen so much freakin spam in my life! or at least not all at the same time like this.
Due to abuse, I've now deleted the spam and revoked Guest access. If people want to post in this thread, they're just going to have to register. :P
That was probably a good idea, Yonkey. I have unfortunately become some what of a ghost because of all the spam
Quote from: Erpy on April 25, 2010, 11:28:57 PM
The reason for the C&D would be a mixture of laziness and unwillingness to deal with fangames. It's like the interview with the team says...the legal dept had to finish a couple of legal procedures to make the game's release possible and couldn't be bothered to put manhours into something they did not support to begin with.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
My gut figured it would be something like that, which I why I suspect the only way would be convince them that it will help their bottom line enough to be worth it. Of course that requires getting the ear of a very busy person in the upper hierarchy, which isn't always easy unless you have contacts, and I assume they have already tried that.
Or if a few lawyers fees are really the only barrier could you just offer to have an independent set of lawyers do the process? Raising money to buy the IP is probably unrealistic and bribery would be both impossible and wrong, but that much might be within the realm of possibility.
I am really saddened that this project is not being taken seriously by Activision. I have tried writing them a letter and signed the on-line petition. I wonder how we can convince them that allowing this project to continue would be in their best interest because of revived interest in King's Quest then another King's Quest may become possible and people may want to buy the old King's Quest games that are offered on-line for sale now.
<Guest Dan -- Lurker for a while after the hacking of the website back in the day -- Yonkey remembers>
The first thing I would have asked after the C&D is "What is the reason for the C&D?" Of course, that is provided that you were physically speaking with someone and not receiving a paper communication. If we know the underlying reason, then perhaps that will give us the information necessary to combat the decision. i think that there is something that we can do right now- in addition to shooting down ideas we could also suggest ways to make them work or if they can't work provide alternative ideas. Those of you who are refuting ideas would do well to take such actions, the more ideas we have, the better chance we will have of resolving this matter. Remember that is ok to fail but it is NOT OK to give up. Fight for what you believe in and never back down. At least, thats the way i see things.
You make a good point - I wish we could sit down with the Activision people in some kind of psychotherapy session and ask, rationally and calmly, "What is your PROBLEM?" Maybe it would make a good episode of "Dr. Phil"... :)
Someone mentioned that maybe their problem is that they're unwilling to take the time to do the legal procedures. I'm not sure how much time we're talking about, but I can't imagine that it would be anything compared to the EIGHT FREAKING YEARS they took from the programmers!
Some people have also mentioned that the problem might be money. (Big surprise ;P) There might be lawyers' fees involved. The legal department also might be unwilling to spend time that they won't be paid for. Why a huge multi-million dollar corporation would be worried about things like this, I have no idea, ::) but money does seems to be their weakness.
The price of the IP may not be realistic, but the price of the time and the lawyers might be. Maybe we could find a sympathetic lawyer who would be willing to work for free, or at least at a reduced rate. Any legal experts around who can answer these questions?
I can understand not wanting to get sued.. no one wants that, ever. But the C&D is nothing but an empty threat. Whether or not you have a legal right to release TSL doesn't matter, what matters is that you have a good case. No one wants to take a "fair use" copyright case to court because it risks setting a dangerous precedent if they were to lose. Big companies would be protecting themselves by not pursuing legal action.
There are many instances like this involving video games and music, and no one dares to take it further. It's not worth losing a case (and in turn 100% control of your IP) to take someone to court over a non profit product. If you have not already, I suggest you sit down a copyright lawyer and discuss it in depth. Not just any lawyer will suffice, you will NEED someone who specializes in copyright law. And for the record, that person is not me.
I don't mean to come off rude here, just offering outside perspective. I played the demo and loved it, and I was looking forward to playing this since it seemed to be the only quality fan game that would actually be finished. (FoA2 anyone?)
Don't you think it would set an even more dangerous precedent for AV if a fan group (particularly a fan group who gathered a great deal of pre-publicity) could ignore/dismiss a C&D and get away with it?
Yeah, people can ignore C&D's. The guy who made QFG4.5 did it. But then you'll have to go underground, avoid publicity like the plague, move your site and community to some crappy Eastern-European server that has no TOS about not storing illegal content and you'll have to abandon every shred of commercial dreams you ever had.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
Quote from: Erpy on April 30, 2010, 04:56:02 PM
Don't you think it would set an even more dangerous precedent for AV if a fan group (particularly a fan group who gathered a great deal of pre-publicity) could ignore/dismiss a C&D and get away with it?
Yes, it would. Make no mistake, gfk27, Activision will take further legal action if they have to, and if they did, PoS would not win.
Hi,
there is a new report regarding your incidents:
http://www.gamestar.de/specials/reports/2314608/lizenzen_zum_toeten.html
http://www.gamestar.de/specials/reports/2314608/lizenzen_zum_toeten_p2.html
I'm very sorry to see this happen to passionate gamers and hobby-developers as you are
Greetings from Germany
Hi,
I already wanted to write this the first time I heard about the IP incident but forgot somehow and the report mentioned above brought me back.
Wouldn't it be possible to just get rid of all names that somehow relate to King's Quest and release the game as a regular adventure?
I know that it's not easy to give up a project's roots but in the end everyone will know that it is or was supposed to be King's Quest 9.
Greetings
maybe consultant a lawyer... I mean if you change the names and such and dont call it anything to do with Kings Quest I dont see the issue...I'm sad to see this happen I've been following this project for i think 5 or 6 years :(
What happened to Neil. I cannot read German. Dan in US.
Quote from: Nalas on May 01, 2010, 04:23:43 AM
Hi,
there is a new report regarding your incidents:
http://www.gamestar.de/specials/reports/2314608/lizenzen_zum_toeten.html
http://www.gamestar.de/specials/reports/2314608/lizenzen_zum_toeten_p2.html
I'm very sorry to see this happen to passionate gamers and hobby-developers as you are
Greetings from Germany
Here's the German article after going through Google translation. It's not perfect, but you can at least get the gist of what's being said!
http://translate.google.com/translate_back?hl=de&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.gamestar.de/specials/reports/2314608/lizenzen_zum_toeten.html&prev=_t&twu=1
Neil is on hiatus from the team right now.
Don't have time to read the article right now, but hopefully that is what you were asking.
We have no way of knowing what Activision will do and it doesn't matter at this point since the team will clearly not ignore the C&D. What matters is what we are going to do now- let them impale us prison style or do something about it.
Quote from: atec123 on May 01, 2010, 07:06:55 PM
Neil is on hiatus from the team right now.
Don't have time to read the article right now, but hopefully that is what you were asking.
Whew, yeah that is what I needed to know. I was worried that something happened to him. Thank you for the information.
Quote from: dew7 on May 02, 2010, 01:01:06 AM
Quote from: atec123 on May 01, 2010, 07:06:55 PM
Neil is on hiatus from the team right now.
Don't have time to read the article right now, but hopefully that is what you were asking.
Whew, yeah that is what I needed to know. I was worried that something happened to him. Thank you for the information.
No problem.
Quote from: liggy002 on May 01, 2010, 11:54:02 PM
We have no way of knowing what Activision will do and it doesn't matter at this point since the team will clearly not ignore the C&D. What matters is what we are going to do now- let them impale us prison style or do something about it.
Yep. And we are doing something about it. We need activision to notice us. That is the first step. And it appears to be working.
Can you give us any more details about Activision noticing you or is it just the same news as before.
I suppose someone could go walk up and down outside their office with a sign. That'd get somebody's attention! Or it might convince them that all King's Quest fans need to be locked in a padded room...
Sadly I'm too far away to try that, and thus limited to email, paper mail and phone.
Quote from: cupcakedoll on May 03, 2010, 12:05:45 AM
I suppose someone could go walk up and down outside their office with a sign. That'd get somebody's attention! Or it might convince them that all King's Quest fans need to be locked in a padded room...
...but CC can vouch for that anyway.
It is the same news as before. I am continuing to send the petition letters as well as calling Activision on a regular basis. The operator knows what The Silver Lining is now. She sorta huffs a bit when she has to look it up. Keep your chins up everyone we will fight this until the end. No matter what it takes.
In the May 2010 Game Informer, you see an article about Activision and the lawsuit over the 2 medal of honor guys that were the final people to sign off. Maybe Activision will be investigated by DOJ after there done fixing Apple's Pride of wanting to only use their decoding formats like H264 instead of Flash. Yes, Flash is not secure so hopefully developers will focus on what is really good. Perhaps a format like Ogg Vorbis could take off.
"Given the overwhelming community support for the Silver Lining project," a company statement released to Kotaku on Sunday read, "Activision is in discussions with Phoenix Online Studios about allowing them to continue to finish the game and then release it to their fans."
http://kotaku.com/5529809/the-sequel-they-had-no-right-to-make-now-has-a-surprise-twist
This is a very good sign...!
EDIT: I added a blog post about this development to my site too.
http://oneofswords.com/2010/05/activision-to-sanction-the-silver-lining/
Oh my lord, please, please, please, let this be ture!
Cool, so TSL will come out after all. Yay, a few more months.
Quote from: cygnus on May 03, 2010, 08:04:34 PM
Cool, so TSL will come out after all. Yay, a few more months.
Actually, we're still in negotiations...no official word yet :(
At least they're talking, finally.
I want a TSL shirt too! :D
I've been following TSL since the very beginning. I support you all 100% and wish you the best for whatever happens. Crossing my fingers for you all! :)
This is the most encouraging news I could pop onto the forums and see. It's not a definite go-ahead, but it is definitely promising from a fan's perspective. As always, I'm wishing the TSL team the best, and I hope that Activision listens to you all and lets the project be finished.
And if they don't, I might still have a trick or two up my sleeve. ;)
This is very exciting news indeed! I especially like the David versus Goliath theme the article sports... not only is it very fitting and appropriate, but it sends home the message that no matter how bad things get, you can always make a difference. :)
This is what we have been waiting for! Finally they are talking to the team. The power of the people is what many countries have been founded upon and its nice to think that foundation still stands. I have said this many times, we can do anything if we hope, believe and dream.
Dream on all and let your night be peaceful, quiet and relaxed in the bliss of Dreamland.
;D ;) 8)
Well, hey! That's great news! I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that everything gets worked out. With any luck, this will be out by my 21st birthday! Which would be fantastic. At this point, I'd rather get TSL on my computer than a legal drink in my hand...so that's saying something!
That is saying something for you PJ. Maybe you can have a drink legally along with TSL. That would make you super happy.
THIS MADE MY FLIPPING DAY! :D
This is awesome!!! Folks, we may have done it!
Woa! This is great news.
We should also thank Kotaku for his persistant communications with Activition!
My finger is croosed!
There may yet be hope on the horizon. Let's keep our fingers crossed for a positive outcome with the negotiations.
Hold on, its good to get excited but remember that Activision hasn't said anything so there is no green light, but there is no red light either. Lets keep our chins up, keep Activision on their toes with our petitions, and NEVER give up hope. America was founded on the principles that "We the people" have the power. We CAN do this!
As the phrase goes, "Never give up, never surrender!"
Well, this was a sight for sore eyes.
I'm glad to hear that they're at least talking to us now. So, I guess all we do now is wait...
Quote from: I_am_so_nifty on May 04, 2010, 10:11:12 PM
Well, this was a sight for sore eyes.
I'm glad to hear that they're at least talking to us now. So, I guess all we do now is wait...
Yes, however, keep spreading the word around. Lets keep the heat on Activision until this is resolved. Save TSL still need your petitions and as you all have for the past two months, your support. Save TSL won't completely shut down until the last episode of TSL is released. We will win. ;)
Quote from: waltzdancing on May 05, 2010, 08:31:12 AM
Quote from: I_am_so_nifty on May 04, 2010, 10:11:12 PM
Well, this was a sight for sore eyes.
I'm glad to hear that they're at least talking to us now. So, I guess all we do now is wait...
Yes, however, keep spreading the word around. Lets keep the heat on Activision until this is resolved. Save TSL still need your petitions and as you all have for the past two months, your support. Save TSL won't completely shut down until the last episode of TSL is released. We will win. ;)
yeah. We need to stay even after we are granted a license or whatever ends up happening.
I have a feeling this will turn out good.
QuoteSave TSL won't completely shut down until the last episode of TSL is released.
So what if Activision decides to grant POS the license that was brokered under VU? (meaning case-by-case approval of freeware games, but no commercial ventures) Would you continue pushing for a commercial endeavour or be content with what is finished now?
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
Quote from: Erpy on May 05, 2010, 09:05:40 AM
So what if Activision decides to grant POS the license that was brokered under VU? (meaning case-by-case approval of freeware games, but no commercial ventures) Would you continue pushing for a commercial endeavour or be content with what is finished now?
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
As has been pointed out in the past, the goal was to and still is to release The Silver Lining as a freeware product to the best of my knowledge. That is our focus for the time being. Of course, without the approval of Activision, this will not happen so I encourage everyone to keep doing what they are doing. :)
I am thinking if we get another freeware license, we will just chill and wait for the game to come out. If it is released for free without problems, then that is great. We will still be ready just in case though.
(haven't talked to anyone else on the save tsl team on this matter, but that makes the most sense to me)
Heh, we appreciate the dedication to constant vigilance! :)
I hope the team is negotiating for the release of the remaining chapters as well. It would ruin the franchise if all that could be released was just a partial game with only a few chapters. I wouldn't mind paying for the remaining chapters either.
It is a good sign that Activision is even talking to the team because that means that they are least considering some options. I am optimistic about the outcome.
Our goal at this time is to have the game released under the original terms of the licence. Once the first episode of the game is released, we will stop the petitions and the callings, but I will continue to make sure the wool is not pulled over our eyes.
Quote from: waltzdancing on May 05, 2010, 11:42:33 AM
Our goal at this time is to have the game released under the original terms of the licence. Once the first episode of the game is released, we will still keep an eye on Activision to make sure they don't change their minds anywhere or try to pull the wool over out eyes.
that is what I was thinking.
BTW,
how long is the first chapter compared to one of the KQ games?
I remembered hearing that it was about KQ6 length. Is that true?
Activision is talking with POS to figure out how to do this so everybody is happy in the end. How would the wool be pulled over someone's eyes?
It is for the worst case scenario. I'm not suggesting that it will be but we were caught off guard twice, once with UV and then with Activision. "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." I'd rather not find out what a third one would be. We are just being cautious. I'm not saying anything negative being cautious.
I would also have fans consider writing letters to Activision to thank them. I know this may be premature but it couldn't hurt since at least Activision is now talking to you.
Save TSL is all ready working on a massive thank you letter if the negotiations are successful. We will keep you all up to date on what is going on and as always, if you have any questions, we are here to try and answer them. Also if you have any suggestions on what we should do, let us know too.
Quote from: oberonqa on May 05, 2010, 10:07:02 AM
Quote from: Erpy on May 05, 2010, 09:05:40 AM
So what if Activision decides to grant POS the license that was brokered under VU? (meaning case-by-case approval of freeware games, but no commercial ventures) Would you continue pushing for a commercial endeavour or be content with what is finished now?
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
As has been pointed out in the past, the goal was to and still is to release The Silver Lining as a freeware product to the best of my knowledge. That is our focus for the time being. Of course, without the approval of Activision, this will not happen so I encourage everyone to keep doing what they are doing. :)
Yes, that the original plan. releasing as freeware that is.
Erpy from adventuregamers did explain clear as to problem between VU/Activision
http://forums.adventuregamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26390&page=3
look for post #54 and #55
I assume this Erpy user guy is among us as well.
Erpy is the same guy from the adventure forums. He has provided great insight for us and didn't let his emotions get the better of him. I don't know where to place the blame, there might not be any blame to go around but we will have to wait and see.
I personally believe this C&D could have been prevented, but I don't think it's fair or even possible to put the blame on one particular party.
- Activision could have offered to finalize the procedures for the fan license from the get-go or at least shouldn't have been so quick to send a C&D... but on the other hand, those procedures should have been finalized before the merger between VU and Activision even took place and it was never Activision's job to finalize procedures supposedly finalized by its "predecessor".
- Vivendi Universal Games should have pushed the TSL team to get those signed contracts over there ASAP and finish things up properly...but on the other hand, VU Games is a corporate giant and fangames make up a miniscule spot on their massive agenda so it's not surprising they don't treat a fan license as something that has major priority on their work schedule, because it hasn't.
- The team should have checked and doublechecked to see if their fan license was covered and finalized instead of assuming it would be. Unlike Vivendi's lawyers, the condition of the license WAS a top priority for them and when years of work from all your members is at the stake, you just can't afford to miss any fineprints whatsoever...but on the other hand, dealing with a corporate giant is a long and painful process. When KQ1VGA 4.0 and QFG2VGA were submitted, we sent a CD-R through snail mail twice...the first one got lost somewhere along the way, we had to contact them again, acknowledge they didn't have what we sent, send it again, check with them again and confirm they received it this time. It's not a particularly efficient process.
So each party has their own side of the story. Wanna blame one particular side? Just take the first half of one of the three preceeding paragraphs and ignore the rest. In the end though, it's good that someone was able to get through and establish communication with Activision, because "death by bureaucracy" is probably among the worst ways to go under...right up there with eating a cat cookie "au naturel" or pushing a rock from the wrong direction.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashum.jpg)
Exactly--there were many assumptions, misunderstandings, etc, on both sides. We're not saying we didn't make any of those by any means. It's very much a learning process, and we know much better now than we did back then about these things. We were first-time game designers, but also first-time contract negotiators!
Then I hope that experience will serve you well in the talks to come. :)
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashsmil.jpg)
Quote from: Erpy on May 05, 2010, 09:05:40 AMSo what if Activision decides to grant POS the license that was brokered under VU? (meaning case-by-case approval of freeware games, but no commercial ventures) Would you continue pushing for a commercial endeavour or be content with what is finished now?
Erpy, are you asking if POS will try to make original games they can commercially sell when this is all over? Cause that is a good question!
I WOULD be interested in the answer to that question, but no, that wasn't what I was asking.
My question was mostly what the ideal scenario was that the "Save TSL"-group had in mind...a fan license like the one VU offered in the past, resulting in a freeware game, would be the most beneficial in the short run since all fans can quickly get the game they've been waiting for (or rather the start of the story) free of charge, but statements made by the team members would indicate no further chapters would be developed since doing so for free would not be viable, so a free fan license would be detrimental to the possibility of developing the project as it was originally written.
But they already answered that.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashswt.jpg)
Our ideal scenario right now is the fan license. It is the quickest way to get the game to the fans and then let POS make the decision on what they want to do. I hope that answered your question Erpy. With just a fan license, it would cut into the project but we may see the other chapter in time but lets get over this first hurdle first.
I'm sure that we will see the other Chapters eventually. The team doesn't want to just produce an incomplete game and leave it at that. Though, when we see them, they will be commercialized and not free. I also have a hunch that they will been producing their own IP which should be exciting and something to look forward to on the horizon.
By the way, are there any Shenmue fans out there? There is somewhat of a similar situation happening with Sega- they don't want to produce Shenmue 3 because they believe the production cost would exceed the revenue. if there are any fans here, a help with that petition would be useful as well. They left it on a cliffhanger and for such a great game it is sad to see it incomplete.
I would help (at least a little) even without knowing what's going on. stuff like that just sucks.
I'd just like to add that I wouldn't mind if we had to wait a few more months for a commercial version of the game--if that's possible, you know. It would help fund future projects and even the other chapters, so I think it's a smart idea if Activision allows it.
I just want a game. A series would be nice but anything would be great. Its also cool that Activision is starting to talk so maybe something can happen here. No matter what I will be content and happy.
Every day I get on waiting to hear the good news and see a happy King-Graham-hat logo.
If these talks go pear shaped and we have to get back to yelling at Activision, it'd be nice to have the names and positions of various people on the Activuisuion staff. All the "how to convince companies to do stuff" lists say it's much better to write to people by their names. Anyone want to do some googling on that?
Another thing we could do is get an ad in a gaming magazine, an actual paper one. A quarter page with the sad King-Graham-hat logo and a short explanation of the situation might bring more letter-writers to the cause.
Totally unrelated story: Once at a renfaire I saw Graham's hat. Blue with a red feather. I still regret not buying it!
A lot of legal stuff needs to be worked out. Its going to take time and within that time I am continuing to download the on line signatures and send them to activision along with any mailed in signatures I receive. Talking is good but because it is a large company, we need to have patience and to keep on trucking.
Quote from: cupcakedoll on May 11, 2010, 10:02:31 PM
If these talks go pear shaped and we have to get back to yelling at Activision, it'd be nice to have the names and positions of various people on the Activuisuion staff. All the "how to convince companies to do stuff" lists say it's much better to write to people by their names. Anyone want to do some googling on that?
This link might help. --> http://www.activisionblizzard.com/corp/ml/aboutUs/corporateManagement.html
I received an email from TSL today with the subject line "Important Message from our Narrator, Amy Kurylo!"
Excitedly, I opened it, only to find that the email was blank. It contained only the text "Hello Everyone!"
What happened? Does anyone have the rest of this email? Is there any update?
Here's what mine said:
QuoteHello Everyone!
The wonderfully talented Amy Kurylo, our narrator and singer of "The Day You Were Gone," has a special request for anyone who's able to donate to a really great cause. In her words:
"I'm part of an 18 piece jazz ensemble that is going to go to Europe to play to find a cure for polio. I will be singing at the Montreux Jazz Festival in Switzerland for two days. It's the epitome of Jazz festivals - like saying I'm going to sing at Carnegie Hall. Plus, I'll be in Paris, London, Liverpool and parts of Germany singing at concerts with the band - All to raise funding for Polio. Bill and Melinda Gates foundation will match whatever we raise over there. Here's the dilemma. The trip will have to wait another year without the Montreux Jazz Festival if we don't raise a little more funding in the next 2 weeks. ... this is an opportunity for a lot of cool things. Helping kids, helping the band ... If nothing else, it's a great cause."
You can donate money and get more information here through their website:
http://www.rivercitiesjazz.com/europetour.php
It is indeed a good cause, and doesn't just give our narrator a great opportunity, but also gives some kids who greatly need it a chance to get a vaccine for a potentially debilitating disease!
Mine was fine as well. ???
Well, that's a great cause; however, I was hoping for TSL news.
Strange about the email, though...Perhaps Hotmail is just being stupid as usual.
It's not just Hotmail; mine was messed up as well.
are the talks with actvision going well?
Quote from: cygnus on May 21, 2010, 02:30:08 AM
are the talks with actvision going well?
Well as they say, no news is good news. Still no new developments to report.
News? News? :(
Quote from: Loigan on May 23, 2010, 07:23:25 PM
News? News? :(
nope, nope.
Not for now at least.
check out the save tsl website and all that stuff if you haven't though. There is some stuff going on in the background.
Hope I don't get flamed for this, but why not just drop the source code as open source and let someone overseas compile it and drop it on the torrent networks? If I can pirate any game I want, it doesn't make a lot of sense that a fan made game could actually be stopped from being released. No matter how you cut it, TSL infringed on the KQ ip, so why not accept it and "illegally" release it, it's hard to image this project being started with that not being the plan from the beginning.
Kq1vga is allowed to live on because its already all over the net, and one team or group could clean it off if they wanted to.
I wish people would stop suggesting this.
If POS were to release TSL illegally, not only would they get in legal trouble, but they would lose any chance of actually becoming a respected studio developing their original IP. So they're not going to do it. Period.
Quote from: Cvmaas on May 29, 2010, 12:00:14 PMIf I can pirate any game I want . . .
Just because you can pirate games doesn't make it legal or morally acceptable.
Quote from: Cvmaas on May 29, 2010, 12:00:14 PMKq1vga is allowed to live on because its already all over the net, and one team or group could clean it off if they wanted to.
No, not really. They could try, but it would keep popping back up. It's been spread so far and wide by now that there's no erasing it completely.
We both said the same thing about kq1vga, it's too wide spread to get rid of, and hence not worth Activisions time to even try it. In the meantime, it's been updated, so it looks as though AGD have been able to continue on with the ip, and without legal trouble.
I'm pretty sure no one is going to think pirating is legal, nor did I give the impression that it was, but taking a studios ip and using it for your own purpose, fan game or not, is pirating. Just because they aren't looking to make money on the game doesn't make it much different than me downloading games and saying it's ok because I wasn't going to buy it anyway. That's why I don't understand why this project is willing to throw away 10 years worth of work, so you can say you are now on the up and up. Activision wouldn't have sent a C&D if what they were doing was legal. It started off illegal, and it's being ruined trying to pretend it was anything different when the project started.
If they want to be a respectable studio, buy other studios, not just fans, they should take out all reference to KQ in the game and make it their own and stand on it's own. I want KQ9, they can deliver that, or deliver something else that's respectable and maybe I'd be interested in it. Can't have both.
KQ1VGA was a completely different matter. The TSL-team was contacted BEFORE they got around to releasing their game. AGDI wasn't contacted until AFTER both KQ1VGA and KQ2+ were already out. (AGDI kept such a low profile with KQ1VGA that most fans didn't even know about it, I'm not certain if they even had a board a few weeks before the game came out)
There's a large difference between releasing a game based on someone's IP WITHOUT their permission and releasing it AGAINST their permission. The first one might or might not get you into trouble, the second is almost guaranteed to get ugly.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashsnc2.jpg)
Quote from: Cvmaas on May 29, 2010, 02:00:50 PMWe both said the same thing about kq1vga, it's too wide spread to get rid of, and hence not worth Activisions time to even try it.
It doesn't seem like that's what you were saying, but if it is, then okay, I agree.
Quote from: Cvmaas on May 29, 2010, 02:00:50 PMIt started off illegal, and it's being ruined trying to pretend it was anything different when the project started.
Erpy's right. Doing it without permission and against permission are two different matters.
Without permission and against permission are both the same in the eyes of the law! If it makes you feel better to try and make that distinction go ahead, but in court it won't stick. You took someones ip, they don't need to say NO, you don't have permission for it to be against the law. The law is it is their ip, and if someone knowingly uses it, they violated the law. If the owner of the ip wanted to, they could bring the same legal troubles to AGD as you fear them bringing to TSL. Just because they haven't doesn't make it a legal distinction between the two.
I see what TSL is doing (and what AGD did) as being in the same vein as what fanartists and fanfiction writers are doing. They're borrowing an IP and using it to develop their own ideas for non-profit reasons. It's all illegal, technically, but generally fanfiction and fanart are not acted upon. They're widespread, hard to control and, lets face it, not a big threat to major corporations (unless the writers or artists started selling the work that contained IP they didn't own).
I don't think fangames are really all that different, they're just targeted more because their easier to shut down and don't exist in great quantities.
It's pretty much an "I don't care" scenario. Fanart and fanfiction have grown to the point where they're still technically illegal, but corporations don't care. Fangames, as they see it, are still manageable, and so they do care. It doesn't make fanfiction and fanart any less illegal, just a little less immoral (depending on where your morals are to begin with). Now that Activision has specifically said about this fangame "We care and we don't want you doing this," the best course of action is to work with them, not against them. It would be the same as if J.K. Rowling decided to say, "No more Harry Potter fanfiction!" and started sending out C&D letters to fanfiction websites demanding the removal of all Harry Potter material. At that point, it's no longer "I don't care" but now "I do care, and you need to stop."
It is true that they are both against the law, but releasing something that has clearly been shut down is going to get you into more trouble than just releasing something that was under the radar. The creators of TSL thought they fell under the fair use clause, which would make them legal.
The company felt differently hence the C&D. POS is being responsible by stopping production and engaging in talks. This is the correct move and the best way to proceed as they have said they have plans to make their own games after TSL. I support their decision and will continued to send our complaints to Activision until they hear us. Contract or no, the fans are not going to let this game go so easily. TSL was contracted before the game was released but with the company sift things get lost of overlooked. Don't give up so easily. After every storm there is always a rainbow and a blue sky.
QuoteWithout permission and against permission are both the same in the eyes of the law! If it makes you feel better to try and make that distinction go ahead, but in court it won't stick.
In theory, yes. In practice, there's a difference. Companies aren't eager to drag fan teams to court and deal with expensive lawsuits, so they usually send out C&D's first, assuming the fans are ignorant of their own legal status, to remove the benefit of the doubt the teams are operating under. When a C&D is ignored, only then will an IP holder take a lawsuit up as the only viable option.
QuoteIf the owner of the ip wanted to, they could bring the same legal troubles to AGD as you fear them bringing to TSL. Just because they haven't doesn't make it a legal distinction between the two.
If the IP holder wanted AGDI to stop their activities, they'd terminate the contract we have with them, which they are legally entitled to. (the contract can be terminated by either party at any time) The difference between AGDI and POS was mainly the fact that AGDI's case was about honoring an existing contract while POS' case was about creating a new contract. What exactly was your point again?
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashsnc2.jpg)
Quote from: Erpy on May 30, 2010, 07:43:51 AMIf the IP holder wanted AGDI to stop their activities, they'd terminate the contract we have with them, which they are legally entitled to.
Woah, AGDI has a contract? With Activision? I didn't realize that.
This has been hashed and rehashed so many times my head spins at merely trying to add up the number of times it's been hashed and rehashed (all in the 40+ pages of this very thread, I might add).
But what it really boils down to is we're going to this the right way. If we can't do it the right way, then we won't do it at all. Simply releasing the game as open-source isn't even remotely possible, as the game utilizes TorqueEngine, which is NOT applicable to open-source.
And even if TSL was built around a non-licensed engine, there's still the matter of the C&D to contend with. We're not going to ignore that C&D. We are still talking with Activision and that is good. We won't do anything to jeapordize on-going talks with Activision. About the only thing I can suggest the fans do is be patient and continue taking part in the Save TSL Movement.
Rome was not built in a day and so too TSL will not be released in a day.
QuoteWoah, AGDI has a contract? With Activision? I didn't realize that.
The contract AGDI has was finalized back when Vivendi was still running things. But it remains valid until termination by one of the parties involved, even if the IP changes owners like it did with Activision. This is generally how things go with contracts...certainly you don't think that when merging with a multinational like VU Games, all legal agreements which they ever went into (thousands upon thousands with such a large company) are automatically voided and have to be manually renewed? If so, nobody would ever merge or buy companies. It'd be too much work.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashswt.jpg)
Quote from: Erpy on May 30, 2010, 03:49:34 PMThis is generally how things go with contracts...certainly you don't think that when merging with a multinational like VU Games, all legal agreements which they ever went into (thousands upon thousands with such a large company) are automatically voided and have to be manually renewed?
No, no, of course not. I was under the assumption that contracts just transfer to the new owner. So if you made a contract with Vivendi, then it becomes a contract with Activision (which is why I said Activision in my post; I assumed that the contract was made back before the buyout). I was just surprised because I wasn't aware that there was any contract at all. In fact, until you mentioned it in this thread, I didn't know that AGDI had even been in contact with Vivendi and Activision about the remakes.
I never spent much time in the Tierra/AGDI forums, though, which is probably why I was clueless.
Also, sorry, this is off topic but it's been bugging me for a while now...what anime is your avatar from, Erpy?
Quote from: oberonqa on May 30, 2010, 01:21:52 PM
This has been hashed and rehashed so many times my head spins at merely trying to add up the number of times it's been hashed and rehashed (all in the 40+ pages of this very thread, I might add).
But what it really boils down to is we're going to this the right way. If we can't do it the right way, then we won't do it at all. Simply releasing the game as open-source isn't even remotely possible, as the game utilizes TorqueEngine, which is NOT applicable to open-source.
And even if TSL was built around a non-licensed engine, there's still the matter of the C&D to contend with. We're not going to ignore that C&D. We are still talking with Activision and that is good. We won't do anything to jeapordize on-going talks with Activision. About the only thing I can suggest the fans do is be patient and continue taking part in the Save TSL Movement.
Rome was not built in a day and so too TSL will not be released in a day.
You aren't the only one, Oberonqa. Is there a way to put up a posting somewhere on the forums that lists "Things that have been discussed to Death and beyond in the C&D thread and why they're infeasible/possible/etc"? That way, all one has to do is put up a link whenever someone mentions something that's on the list and that's that.
And thanks for the word that you're still talking with Activision. I know the corporate world moves slower than molasses in Antarctica most times, but it's reassuring to hear from someone in the know that talks are still going on. :)
That's something I could look into Angellic. :)
QuoteI was just surprised because I wasn't aware that there was any contract at all. In fact, until you mentioned it in this thread, I didn't know that AGDI had even been in contact with Vivendi and Activision about the remakes.
I never spent much time in the Tierra/AGDI forums, though, which is probably why I was clueless.
Also, sorry, this is off topic but it's been bugging me for a while now...what anime is your avatar from, Erpy?
My signature pics are from Lunar:Silver Star Story Complete for the PSX.
AGDI was the first fan group to be offered a fan license, actually. (it's why we changed our name from Tierra to AGD Interactive in 2003) We were contacted late 2003 and a fan license was hammered out in secret behind the scenes. The whole thing took nearly a year to finalize (what's said about the corporate world moving slowly is absolutely correct, especially on non-profit cases) and after it was done we were allowed to put a disclaimer on our site, but they preferred if we didn't make a publicity stunt out of it. Our forum regulars have known since the end of 2004, but the public at large remained unaware until TSL's shutdown in 2005 when people questioned why AGDI wasn't targetted. I'm fairly sure the fan license TSL was offered in 2005 was largely based on the contract that was made for AGDI.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashum.jpg)
Oh I'm sure there were some pretty big differences between the contracts, Erpy. After all, if our contract was based off of the AGD contract, I'm pretty sure you would have gotten a C&D.
I haven't seen your contract just as you have not seen our contract, so it's largely conjecture at this point... but it would be unwise to assume the contract we secured in 2005 was in any way, shape, or form based on the AGD contract.
Quote from: Erpy on May 30, 2010, 11:31:23 PMMy signature pics are from Lunar:Silver Star Story Complete for the PSX.
Ah, okay. Thanks. :)
Quote from: Erpy on May 30, 2010, 11:31:23 PMAGDI was the first fan group to be offered a fan license, actually. (it's why we changed our name from Tierra to AGD Interactive in 2003)
Ah, so
that's why.
Quote from: Erpy on May 30, 2010, 11:31:23 PMWe were contacted late 2003 and a fan license was hammered out in secret behind the scenes. The whole thing took nearly a year to finalize (what's said about the corporate world moving slowly is absolutely correct, especially on non-profit cases) and after it was done we were allowed to put a disclaimer on our site, but they preferred if we didn't make a publicity stunt out of it.
Understandable. I guess they didn't want to set a precedent or blow the whole thing out of proportion; maybe they just really liked the work you were doing. Was the initial contact hostile, or was Vivendi just interested in setting up some ground rules?
Sorry if I'm prying too much, I'm just curious. If there's anything you don't feel comfortable sharing, I apologize for asking.
QuoteOh I'm sure there were some pretty big differences between the contracts, Erpy. After all, if our contract was based off of the AGD contract, I'm pretty sure you would have gotten a C&D.
I think if TSL's contract had been in solidly place legally, you wouldn't have gotten C&D-ed either. (they could have terminated the license if they disapproved of the project, but that's different from a C&D) You can't say there were big differences between the fan licenses of both teams just because POS got C&D-ed, because the shutdown was more closely related to hassles around the legal procedures regarding the license than to the license itself.
QuoteI haven't seen your contract just as you have not seen our contract, so it's largely conjecture at this point... but it would be unwise to assume the contract we secured in 2005 was in any way, shape, or form based on the AGD contract.
No, I haven't seen your contract (and I said I was fairly sure, I didn't want to go as far as state it as a fact), but everything I did hear about it suggests the two are nearly identical as far as terms and obligations go. Ditto with the agreement SQ7 was offered (and rejected) and Josh Mandel (who looked at both our and SQ7's contract) did suggest they were nearly identical.
Seeing how extremely long it took for AGDI's license to be drafted and how extremely quickly POS' license was written up, I don't think it's a stretch of imagination to believe that the license they drafted for AGDI back in the days became their template for the fan license offered to POS and SQ7. It's a whole lot more credible to me than the idea they started from scratch each time.
QuoteWas the initial contact hostile, or was Vivendi just interested in setting up some ground rules?
It was polite, but firm. Their initial letter merely told us we were violating copyright law and to call them immediately to resolve the matter, but refused to give details, so we mistook it for a shutdown request at first. They were polite and professional all the way through, but the underlying statement was clear...we could accept a fan license and continue, or we could refuse and we'd have to close down. I don't think "setting ground rules" was really the right description. Vivendi wanted to take action to maintain tight control of their IP and they gave us an option that didn't involve shutting our projects down. But they weren't vague about the fact that they were the ones setting the terms.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
Quote from: Erpy on May 31, 2010, 10:22:11 AM
QuoteOh I'm sure there were some pretty big differences between the contracts, Erpy. After all, if our contract was based off of the AGD contract, I'm pretty sure you would have gotten a C&D.
I think if TSL's contract had been in solidly place legally, you wouldn't have gotten C&D-ed either. (they could have terminated the license if they disapproved of the project, but that's different from a C&D) You can't say there were big differences between the fan licenses of both teams just because POS got C&D-ed, because the shutdown was more closely related to hassles around the legal procedures regarding the license than to the license itself.
QuoteI haven't seen your contract just as you have not seen our contract, so it's largely conjecture at this point... but it would be unwise to assume the contract we secured in 2005 was in any way, shape, or form based on the AGD contract.
No, I haven't seen your contract (and I said I was fairly sure, I didn't want to go as far as state it as a fact), but everything I did hear about it suggests the two are nearly identical as far as terms and obligations go. Ditto with the agreement SQ7 was offered (and rejected) and Josh Mandel (who looked at both our and SQ7's contract) did suggest they were nearly identical.
Seeing how extremely long it took for AGDI's license to be drafted and how extremely quickly POS' license was written up, I don't think it's a stretch of imagination to believe that the license they drafted for AGDI back in the days became their template for the fan license offered to POS and SQ7. It's a whole lot more credible to me than the idea they started from scratch each time.
QuoteWas the initial contact hostile, or was Vivendi just interested in setting up some ground rules?
It was polite, but firm. Their initial letter merely told us we were violating copyright law and to call them immediately to resolve the matter, but refused to give details, so we mistook it for a shutdown request at first. They were polite and professional all the way through, but the underlying statement was clear...we could accept a fan license and continue, or we could refuse and we'd have to close down. I don't think "setting ground rules" was really the right description. Vivendi wanted to take action to maintain tight control of their IP and they gave us an option that didn't involve shutting our projects down. But they weren't vague about the fact that they were the ones setting the terms.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
I cannot go into specifics, for obvious reasons... but I'm going to say I'm pretty sure the contract you hammered out was probably a bit different than the contract we hammered out. If anything, I would say that Vivendi learned from AGD and utilized that knowledge when dealing with us.
Like I said though, I cannot go into specifics so we're pretty much at a dead end where this paticular conversation goes.
Are you certain? Obviously, AGDI's contract mentioned remakes and POS' contract mentioned an unofficial sequel, but that's more like a small change that's unlikely to demand a redraft or even anything more drastic than changing a line or two here and there.
Based on what I've read in articles and forum posts here about TSL, the terms and conditions that were mentioned in public at one point or another over the years (no making money off the game, legal ownership goes to the IP holder, submit the game for approval before release, every contributor send a signed contract, etc) all sound exactly like the terms of AGDI's agreement and I'm curious why you believe POS' agreement is really different, because if it were, it'd beg the question; if VU did indeed change important terms for POS' sake or as you say learn from their experience, why did they switch right back to the old terms when SQ7 was offered a deal and what exactly needed change to begin with? (I think VU offered POS a fan license for the exact same reason they offered AGDI one...to keep a tight control of their IP without having to resort to shut the project down)
However, I'm afraid I don't have any factual evidence to support my template-theory, so the point is rather moot. :)
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashshp.jpg)
Quote from: Erpy on May 31, 2010, 10:22:11 AMIt was polite, but firm. Their initial letter merely told us we were violating copyright law and to call them immediately to resolve the matter, but refused to give details, so we mistook it for a shutdown request at first. They were polite and professional all the way through, but the underlying statement was clear...we could accept a fan license and continue, or we could refuse and we'd have to close down.
Very interesting. It's kind of amazing that they actually offered you a way to keep the project alive...you wouldn't think a large corporation would be reasonable and a little selfless like that (unless they were also taking fair use into account).
Quote from: Erpy on May 31, 2010, 10:22:11 AMI don't think "setting ground rules" was really the right description. Vivendi wanted to take action to maintain tight control of their IP and they gave us an option that didn't involve shutting our projects down. But they weren't vague about the fact that they were the ones setting the terms.
Perhaps my choice of words was poor, but that is basically what I was getting at. Cool, thanks. :)
Interesting that the SQ7 team rejected Vivendi's generous (relatively, based on the alternative) offer.
QuoteVery interesting. It's kind of amazing that they actually offered you a way to keep the project alive...you wouldn't think a large corporation would be reasonable and a little selfless like that (unless they were also taking fair use into account).
Actually, the "fair use"-thing was the first argument VU's lawyer swept right off the table when we first spoke to him. It didn't apply to us. I don't see it as selfless, just as an alternative option to shutdown. And a fairly reasonable one.
QuoteInteresting that the SQ7 team rejected Vivendi's generous (relatively, based on the alternative) offer.
Generous isn't what I would call it. As Josh Mandel mentioned in public, the big breaking point for the SQ7-team was the clause that said all assets (art, story, code, music) of the project would become legal property of VU upon creation. Not just the assets that were based on previous games, but all new content and plot elements as well. This meant that VU was free to order distribution of the game afterwards, sell it for profit without having to give the team a dime or start a new project based on original parts of the game without the need to pay the SQ7 team any royalties. This wasn't very likely to happen, but the possibility and the fact he was giving VU his work for free was enough for Josh Mandel to reject the fan license and he mentioned several others shared his opinion that the project's assets should never be given to a large corporation for free.
I assume this condition was also part of the deal that POS was offered in 2005 (no, I'm not fishing for a confirmation) and when I first heard about the shutdown, I initially falsely assumed that it was a definite curtains for the team since this clause makes it legally impossible to redesign the project without KQ elements. (that didn't turn out to be the case of course, since the contract wasn't in effect yet)
I recognize this clause, but for AGDI it was less of an issue since a relatively large part of our remakes' content was already property of VU to begin with and you can't try to strip familiar elements out of a remake anyway without it stopping to be a remake.
It's a price to pay for the ability to release your project without legal issues and it's up to each team to determine if it's worth it. You get what you pay for with a fan license.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashsmil.jpg)
How are the talks going? Do they lean in favor of TSL being released or of experiencing permanent rejection?
Are there any indications of the above mentioned scenarios based on the talks or is there nothing to report due to Activision not saying anything that is indicative of a bias in either direction?
I have to agree that not engaging in piracy is obviously the wise choice here. "Piracy", however, is more than one might think. For instance, just because charging $13.00 for a movie ticket is legally permissable, does not mean that is not piracy. Sure, people don't have to pay the $13.00 for the ticket, but that still doesn't make it morally acceptable to charge an outrageous price by taking advantage of a much desired past time. Also, Activision cancelling a contract previously honored by VU and "stealing" away the dreams and hopes of thousands of fans could also fall under the definition of piracy. VU tried to take them away once but gave them back to the fans. Now Activision has taken them for the time being. I hope that Activision has the sense to give the fans back their dreams. Otherwise, they are no different from all the other "piece of garbage" corporations out there that put the value of a dollar above that of a human being. And i'm sorry, but if Activison does not agree to give the fans what they want, then I won't support them by buying thier products or anyone else who has a parternship with them which would financially benefit them.
Quote from: Erpy on June 01, 2010, 01:07:45 AMI don't see it as selfless, just as an alternative option to shutdown. And a fairly reasonable one.
Quote from: Erpy on June 01, 2010, 01:07:45 AMGenerous isn't what I would call it.
I suppose it's a matter of perspective, and you do make valid points, but as I said, the "selflessness" and "generosity" are all in the context of the alternative, which was for the projects to shut down. Sure, they're by no means ideal situations, but since Vivendi was holding all the cards, any concession they make seems generous by comparison (at least to me; maybe I'm giving them too much credit; I tend to hand it out rather easily).
Quote from: Erpy on June 01, 2010, 01:07:45 AMThis wasn't very likely to happen, but the possibility and the fact he was giving VU his work for free was enough for Josh Mandel to reject the fan license and he mentioned several others shared his opinion that the project's assets should never be given to a large corporation for free.
Hmm. I believe I understand how he might feel that way, but I don't think I agree with him (under the circumstances).
Quote from: liggy002 on June 01, 2010, 06:36:41 PM
How are the talks going? Do they lean in favor of TSL being released or of experiencing permanent rejection?
I'm not in the middle of the talks between Activision and the core team, but I can say that they are ongoing. Other than that, it's really just a waiting game.
QuoteI have to agree that not engaging in piracy is obviously the wise choice here. "Piracy", however, is more than one might think. For instance, just because charging $13.00 for a movie ticket is legally permissable, does not mean that is not piracy. Sure, people don't have to pay the $13.00 for the ticket, but that still doesn't make it morally acceptable to charge an outrageous price by taking advantage of a much desired past time. Also, Activision cancelling a contract previously honored by VU and "stealing" away the dreams and hopes of thousands of fans could also fall under the definition of piracy.
Um...what exactly makes those things "piracy"? If you call "stealing hopes and dreams" piracy...the TSL trilogy as it was originally announced was a franchise consisting of 3 parts that in turn consisted of 3 chapters. (essentially 9 games the size of KQ6) 1.5 years ago, the TSL team announced that producing chapter 3...9 without a budget was not feasable and those chapters most likely would not be made. The game that Activision wouldn't grant a fan license to consisted of chapters 1 and 2. So if we use your logic and call any act that results in people feeling disappointment piracy, you're suggesting that both Activision and POS engaged in piracy and the TSL team is the bigger pirate of the two. ::)
QuoteHmm. I believe I understand how he might feel that way, but I don't think I agree with him (under the circumstances).
I don't really agree with him either, but Josh has had a lot of (negative) experience with corporate antics (he comes off as a bit jaded on the subject of software corporations) so from his point of view his decision was probably the one that made most sense.
QuoteI suppose it's a matter of perspective, and you do make valid points, but as I said, the "selflessness" and "generosity" are all in the context of the alternative, which was for the projects to shut down. Sure, they're by no means ideal situations, but since Vivendi was holding all the cards, any concession they make seems generous by comparison (at least to me; maybe I'm giving them too much credit; I tend to hand it out rather easily).
My own definition of generous is around the principle of "a lot more than you have to give". Let's make an analogy. I believe in the US, it's customary to leave a tip around the value of 15 to 20% of what you spent on a meal when eating out. It's not illegal to not give the tip, but that doesn't mean paying that 15% is generous. I'd call it reasonable. (well, I WOULD if I didn't live in a country that's known as stingy :P) A generous tip would be 20-25% or so. So to keep the analogy:
- Shut down fan project: eat out and don't pay a tip. (prickish)
- Current fan license terms: eat out and pay 15% (reasonable)
- Fan license terms that give fan team royalties if their work were to be sold or lets fan team maintain ownership of original elements in their work: eat out and pay 25%. (generous)
Of course, VU is a corporation and lawyers can't afford to be generous with money that isn't really theirs to spend as they see fit. So I'd call the fan license a reasonable and fairly elegant option compared to a shut down, but generous is a bit too strong a word for me.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
Quote from: Erpy on June 02, 2010, 04:57:37 AMI don't really agree with him either, but Josh has had a lot of (negative) experience with corporate antics (he comes off as a bit jaded on the subject of software corporations) so from his point of view his decision was probably the one that made most sense.
Ah. I don't know anything about his previous exploits, so it may have looked that way to him. Still unfortunate, though.
Quote from: Erpy on June 02, 2010, 04:57:37 AM
- Shut down fan project: eat out and don't pay a tip. (prickish)
- Current fan license terms: eat out and pay 15% (reasonable)
- Fan license terms that give fan team royalties if their work were to be sold or lets fan team maintain ownership of original elements in their work: eat out and pay 25%. (generous)
Okay, yeah, I see where you're coming from. You're making a distinction between generous and reasonable; I was seeing reasonable as a limited form of generosity (since Vivendi wasn't legally obligated to do anything for POS). At this point it's just semantics though; I do agree with your points. Good analogy, too.
That is a very good analogy there Erpy. And pretty much hits the nail on the head as far as I can see.
The TSL Team never stole anyone's dreams. It was incorrect of me to say that dreams could be stolen anyway. No one can steal you dreams, only you can choose to throw them out the window. They brought dreams to life with the TSL project. If we use your logic, you're making invalid assumptions based on what i'm saying. The difference between what Activision and POS did is that POS had a valid and fair reason for not being able to produce the remaining chapters. Activision, on the other hand, just didn't want to bother with the legal procedures and could have easily greenlighted the release. What they did was dishonorable. The situation with POS was different. Besides, although the team had announced that the remaining chapters would not be released, I have to stress that they stated so because they would not do it for FREE. If they were paid to produce the remaining chapters, that would be different matter entirely and I believe that it is definitely possible that we could see the remaining chapters. Therefore, they didn't want to work 10 more years for free and that was a very understandable and valid reason.
The TSL team is a bigger group of pirates than Activision, I won't deny that... lol ;D They took an IP that wasn't theres and decided to make their own fan game based on it. What they did may not have been right from a moral stand point, but I must say that I am glad they did it. They sure as heck didn't steal our dreams though. I'm not saying that I hate Activision. I just don't agree with what they did.
POS bridged the gap between dreams and reality with TSL. They just lacked the funds to fully build the bridge into reality. Even though the bridge extended to the other side.
Activison, AKA the bridge troll (I think that is from King's Quest 1) said that no one was to cross once the bridge was built though he easily could have stepped aside since he had already collected tons of tolls across the land and letting Graham (POS) pass by wouldn't have cost him much if anything.
The point here being that POS gave us our much desired bridge to cross that treachorous river of pessimism. They didnt' take anything away from us by not finishing the bridge in all its majesty. The troll might yet move aside if he can be greased with a sweet deal and may even help us finish the imcomplete bridge provided we help him collect more tolls. Legend has it that if the troll were to let a visitor cross the bridge and step aside without a toll, he would become Prince Charming. Though doing so would require some compassion and understanding of the true purpose behind the TSL project.
Hi
I am not on TSL team but I just heard some news I can't share, but I think it doesn't look good. Sorry this is unsubstantiated but I have been here a few years if that's any support I am not just making this up.
Please correct me if I am wrong though, but if there was the 100% answer I am sure it would eventually be on the front page I am sure.
I'm not sure what this information is or where you might have gotten it, but we are still talking with Activision right now. While we can't share the details of those talks, the outlook is more optimistic than not.
OK thank you and sorry for causing the confusion.
Quote from: KatieHal on June 03, 2010, 08:39:44 PM. . . the outlook is more optimistic than not.
Excellent!
Well, at any rate keep up the good work. We all appreciate the effort you guys are putting forth to help see this through to the light of day. No matter what happens, we will always be grateful for the vision you brought us. I remember thinking to myself at the end of King's Quest 6: "Damn it all, they never got that b****** Shadarack." We may yet have our chance.
To change the subject back to something legal, is there anything else fans can do after they've sent their letter, email & phone call? Do you all think multiple calls and whatnot would help or not?
Another question: I just noticed we have two addresses for activision: on their page it's in Santa Monica CA, but the address Waltz found for sending letters to is in new Mexico. What's up with that? Should we send to both? And the New Mexico address didn't look like a terribly official building on googlemaps, it looks more like a house.
Quote from: cupcakedoll on June 04, 2010, 09:40:06 PMAnother question: I just noticed we have two addresses for activision: on their page it's in Santa Monica CA, but the address Waltz found for sending letters to is in new Mexico. What's up with that? Should we send to both? And the New Mexico address didn't look like a terribly official building on googlemaps, it looks more like a house.
The Cali address is (most likely, haven't checked) Activision's office. The New Mexico address is a house, presumably Waltz's. She was (and still is, as far as I know) collecting letters and bulk mailing them to Activision on everyone's behalf.
The address in New Mexico is my house, for the past three months people have been mailing me their letters and I have been binding them and mailing them all together. If you would like to mail your letter separately please send them to the address in California. Either way your voice will be heard.
And once again waltz, we all thank you so very much for doing this for all of us!
It's also great to hear things are going well! ;D
Oooh! That makes sense, thanks Waltz! (sorry for googlemapsing your house... ;]
Nah, it's cool.
When all this is over we can crash Waltz place *nod*nod*
Quote from: Enchantermon on June 02, 2010, 10:19:51 AM
Quote from: Erpy on June 02, 2010, 04:57:37 AMI don't really agree with him either, but Josh has had a lot of (negative) experience with corporate antics (he comes off as a bit jaded on the subject of software corporations) so from his point of view his decision was probably the one that made most sense.
Ah. I don't know anything about his previous exploits, so it may have looked that way to him. Still unfortunate, though.
I imagine a lot of former Sierra employees are pretty jaded about software corporations. :(
So .. I've been following TSL for years (finally made a forum account) and am just sad/pissed about the whole situation. I fully support you guys 100% of the way. I just think that it's f'd up that you guys have gotten all this way and now they're saying "no."
...To hell with activision.. I say we take this issue to the capitol. Who's with me?
Quote from: MisticalMonk on June 07, 2010, 07:39:50 PM
So .. I've been following TSL for years (finally made a forum account) and am just sad/pissed about the whole situation. I fully support you guys 100% of the way. I just think that it's f'd up that you guys have gotten all this way and now they're saying "no."
...To hell with activision.. I say we take this issue to the capitol. Who's with me?
welcome to the forum!
sadly, your idea won't work. it has been mentioned a lot on past pages of the thread. many a time.
we are already talking and negotiating with activision, and at this point it would be stupid to just go up and start trying to attack them.
I think we are all pissed, but there is still a good amount of hope. check out our website at http://savetsl.co.cc
read some of those articles... things are looking good for the team last I heard.
I am not on the TSL team, I am just the leader of the save TSL team. (the 3rd one actually, lol)
anyway, read up. turns out that the f*** activision, to hell with activision or whatever.... it just isn't a good idea. you would also be surprised how many people suggested it.
^ agreed. everyone's anger is merited, but there is no productive outlet for that anger.
let the negotiations continue. i am confident that something good will come from them.
Quote from: kindofdoon on June 08, 2010, 07:38:32 PM
^ agreed. everyone's anger is merited, but there is no productive outlet for that anger.
You can still write
polite letters to Activision, thanking them for opening their doors to negotiation and urging them to allow TSL to continue. I would say that's a pretty productive outlet. :)
^ right. i just meant kicking and screaming will do no one any good.
Ah. Well then, yes, I agree.
Daddy, I want TSL NOW! WAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!! WAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!
;D
Yeah, never did me any good as a kid. But then again, I never really was much of a pain in the ass then.
^ I second that.
Quote from: liggy002 on June 13, 2010, 02:22:24 PM
Daddy, I want TSL NOW! WAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!! WAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!
;D
Yeah, never did me any good as a kid. But then again, I never really was much of a pain in the ass then.
keep your fingers crossed, man.
no one except the team and activision has heard anything in a little while. not even me. but I think there is hope and we just need to keep on hoping for the best.
Don't give up guys. We just need to keep fighting! :)
As I've said before... no news is good news. Just keep on doing what you all are doing and things will come through in the end.
I have no doubt that all will be well in the end. I'm preoccupied with a number of games at the moment anyway- Final Fantasy XIII and Suikoden to name just a couple. The Space Quest 2 remake over at IA seems to be moving very close to release, so for those of you who are into that series, I suggest taking a look at that in the mean time.
:)
There is also the E3 Expo going on right now. I'm pretty sure there have been numerous amounts of resources taken up(On Activistion's side) in the past few months and even currently for that event.
Now that the Game is Dead, atleast spill the beans and show us everything you guys have done :(
Technically, with the cease and desist, we can't do that. It would be a direct violation. However, we're still in talks with Activision, so hope is not dead yet!
Keep your chin up daventry. Hope is never lost unless we completely give up. Keep fighting with us and maybe some good can come our way.
That's right, put some positive thoughts out there. Look at how far the team has come and how hard they have worked. Activision knows this and they see how passionate the fans are about the game. I believe they will change their minds. Have faith.
(Posted on: June 21, 2010, 10:21:29 PM)
There's a surprise over at Infamous Adventures- I'm sure you guys will like it. 8)
Yes. don't say the game is dead.
it may seem that way. all the "save TSL" stuff... we haven't had any news.... the founder of the Save TSL team is no longer on the team, neither is waltz... now we have me...
no news in forever...
hell... I could go on with that forever.
keep your hopes up.
the fact that you don't know s*** is a good thing.
if the team had given up, you would know.
have faith!
Quote from: liggy002 on June 21, 2010, 08:32:42 PM
There's a surprise over at Infamous Adventures- I'm sure you guys will like it. 8)
*squees*
Cool! :D
Now I want to go read the book again...
Yes the game is definitely not dead... not by a longshot. As long as the game is in our hearts and souls... it will never be dead. Keep participating in Save TSL and the game will live... forever.
Where do i Vote/Join to help support the Game :D
Lets just Hope that when Vivendi does give Greenlight to TSL, that All Chapters are Done so we dont wait for the Next 5 Years. :P
Quote from: daventry on June 22, 2010, 09:31:19 AM
Where do i Vote/Join to help support the Game :D
Go to http://savetsl.co.cc/?cat=1 and you'll find links to the online petition, the Facebook group, and a lot more. Thanks for helping!
Wow...just realized there are almost 3,000 signatures on the online petition! Crazy! :D
Quote from: RollingStone on June 22, 2010, 10:54:56 AM
Quote from: daventry on June 22, 2010, 09:31:19 AM
Where do i Vote/Join to help support the Game :D
Go to http://savetsl.co.cc/?cat=1 and you'll find links to the online petition, the Facebook group, and a lot more. Thanks for helping!
yep.
Don't mail a letter though. Waltz (the person you would be sending it to) is now on the official TSL team and is no longer accepting letters.
just stick around. join all the stuffs.... and wait.
there isn't much more to do than that.
Quote from: koko_99_2001 on June 22, 2010, 11:10:23 AM
Wow...just realized there are almost 3,000 signatures on the online petition! Crazy! :D
No... it's Cray-zee! :P
I don't know why you guys are all surprised. People LOVE this game!
If the Site is Down, why has the Demo been Removed. ???
Ad some KQ Mini Games and make the Site more Lively, lets show Vivendi theres still some Old School Sierra Fans who still Loves the Games and then we could ask Vivendi to let KQ9 go with a Bang for Closure sakes ;)
This Save TSL and sending them a Letter isent going to solve anything, im at this Website called Tomb Raider Forums where Tomb Raider is Very Popular still and i make Awsome Screens.
Ive seen Videos and hear People talk about their Game in witch shows the Company that we Love Lara Croft and Tomb Raider.
Lets put some Class into KQ and this Site, if AGD can Remake KQ Games and Infamous Adventures make their Own Version of KQ, then TSL should step it up a little and not sulk in a corner because they've been Closed Down, it just ahows Vivendi that the Fans are Dead and so is KQ.
My word man, SQ2VGA is still in the making and i cant wait for that to be released.
Just because you close down TSL, doesent mean the Fans are Dead.
Activision asked us to remove all TSL content, since it went hand-in-hand with KQ, which is why everything was taken down. We're gathering here to voice our support, but must wait until talks complete before we can do anything else.
What is this talk about and how long will they slam the door in your face ???
Quote from: daventry on June 23, 2010, 06:52:20 AM
and how long will they slam the door in your face ???
Are you competing with Beernutts for the
Most Pessimistic Fan award or something? ???
;P
Quote from: daventry on June 23, 2010, 05:39:41 AM
If the Site is Down, why has the Demo been Removed. ???
Ad some KQ Mini Games and make the Site more Lively, lets show Vivendi theres still some Old School Sierra Fans who still Loves the Games and then we could ask Vivendi to let KQ9 go with a Bang for Closure sakes ;)
This Save TSL and sending them a Letter isent going to solve anything, im at this Website called Tomb Raider Forums where Tomb Raider is Very Popular still and i make Awsome Screens.
Ive seen Videos and hear People talk about their Game in witch shows the Company that we Love Lara Croft and Tomb Raider.
Lets put some Class into KQ and this Site, if AGD can Remake KQ Games and Infamous Adventures make their Own Version of KQ, then TSL should step it up a little and not sulk in a corner because they've been Closed Down, it just ahows Vivendi that the Fans are Dead and so is KQ.
My word man, SQ2VGA is still in the making and i cant wait for that to be released.
Just because you close down TSL, doesent mean the Fans are Dead.
they are actively doing stuff.
they have taken 2 more people onto the team too. stuff is happening, we just can't talk about it.
just support us. there isn't much more to do. support the TSL team and have faith!
Quote from: Yonkey on June 23, 2010, 07:38:22 AM
Quote from: daventry on June 23, 2010, 06:52:20 AM
and how long will they slam the door in your face ???
Are you competing with Beernutts for the Most Pessimistic Fan award or something? ???
;P
that is totally what I was thinking.
Being negative doesn't get you anywhere. Take that disappointment and anger and help us fight this. Sitting around complaining doesn't do anything and it only makes you feel worse while damaging the mood around you. Send in your petition and tell yourself that everything will be alright. The earth wasn't created in a day so Activision won't give up easily. All we can do right now is wait.
Onwards with the waiting then :D
Quote from: Yonkey on June 23, 2010, 07:38:22 AM
Quote from: daventry on June 23, 2010, 06:52:20 AM
and how long will they slam the door in your face ???
Are you competing with Beernutts for the Most Pessimistic Fan award or something? ???
;P
Where
has neerbutts been in recent times, anyway? I almost miss his (mostly) loathable negativity.
Beermutts is a Member, i thought you guys were mocking me. ???
No, nobody is mocking you. Beernutts is a member who has always been pessimistic about this project. I guess he dropped off when the C&D came through. I don't think I ever got a letter from him, come to think about it.
Well atleast im still around and hoping Activision lifts its C&D from you guys, best of luck to you all :D
Quote from: daventry on June 23, 2010, 11:17:51 AM
Well atleast im still around and hoping Activision lifts its C&D from you guys, best of luck to you all :D
See, and this is why we like you better than beernutts. Beernutts would have said,
"Well we all knew this was coming and there's nothing we can do about it." And when we point out that we are doing things about he would answer, "None of that's going to work." And we would point out that it worked last time and he'd say, "No, they had this planned all along!"
... is it bad that I imagine his comments? :P
Quote from: crayauchtin on June 23, 2010, 12:01:13 PM... is it bad that I imagine his comments? :P
Are you sure
YOU aren't beernutts? :P
HA HA HA HA HA :suffer: :suffer: :suffer:
Maybe he was drunk when he posted those comments. After all, "beer" can you make you go "nutts" sometimes and not make you realize what you are saying.
The counter.... The counter.... OH. My. GOD.
I just got Cesar's FB mail....What's this counter all about?! I MUST KNOW!
Well... I guess we shall find out in about 143000 seconds. Let's see, that would be... 3:00 PM EST on Saturday.
This is exciting. ;D
3:45 by my math, but I like 3 better. Less suspense. No, just as much! :)
I've been following this project for 7 years now, off and on, and I was disappointed to hear about the c&d. It sounded so much more final than the issues a few years ago. Looking through this thread, I wish I'd joined years ago. It sounds like you have a great community here. I might not even have joined now, but I'm a sucker for anything cryptic... I actually just sent my fiance an enciphered e-mail.
Anyways, I hope this is not a tenths-of-seconds Counter of Doom, but a Counter of Rebirth, like the phoenix quote.
Ooooh how exciting!!
Maybe it is the countdown to the announcement that the C&D has been lifted!! *hopes*
I bet we get a big suffer smiley when it runs out.... ::) :P
I can give you one now :suffer:
Cesar, that suffer isn't big enough!
Oh Cat, don't encourage him ;D the next thing we know there will be a huge ' :suffer:' that covers the whole screen whenever somebody clicks on the tsl website
I reckon it will be a Website Change with Chapter 1 Coming in December or something :P
Quote from: Kimmie on June 25, 2010, 04:31:48 AM
Oh Cat, don't encourage him ;D the next thing we know there will be a huge ' :suffer:' that covers the whole screen whenever somebody clicks on the tsl website
Isn't that the plan? :P
Making me pumped!!!
P.S.: That graphic is GORGEOUS.
Quote from: koko_99_2001 on June 25, 2010, 03:50:31 AM
Cesar, that suffer isn't big enough!
Is this (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8489.msg278009#msg278009) more to your liking, Cat? :P
HA HA HA HA HA
Quote from: GoneTooLong on June 25, 2010, 05:43:20 AM
Quote from: koko_99_2001 on June 25, 2010, 03:50:31 AM
Cesar, that suffer isn't big enough!
Is this (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8489.msg278009#msg278009) more to your liking, Cat? :P
Nah, not quite...getting there, though :P
Quote from: koko_99_2001 on June 25, 2010, 05:59:23 AM
Quote from: GoneTooLong on June 25, 2010, 05:43:20 AM
Quote from: koko_99_2001 on June 25, 2010, 03:50:31 AM
Cesar, that suffer isn't big enough!
Is this (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8489.msg278009#msg278009) more to your liking, Cat? :P
Nah, not quite...getting there, though :P
Gotcha. So someone needs to steal the Bat-signal and modify it to display a giant suffer. And give Christian Bale a throat lozenge.
Cesar would totally come when called by a Giant Suffer Signal. :)
:suffer: :suffer:<--because I know stuff too!
:suffer: :suffer: :suffer: :suffer: :suffer: :suffer: :suffer: :suffer: :suffer: :suffer: :suffer: :suffer: :suffer: :suffer:
oh yeah!
I iz using teh suffer!
I knows stuff too!!
Quote from: KatieHal on June 25, 2010, 06:07:56 AM
Cesar would totally come when called by a Giant Suffer Signal. :)
Wait a minute...
QuoteChange is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix
That confirms it! The countdown will reveal that CESAR IS BATMAN!
Quote from: César_Bittar on June 24, 2010, 11:16:55 PM
I can give you one now :suffer:
Always there to please I see... ::) ;)
Quote from: GoneTooLong on June 25, 2010, 06:23:40 AM
Quote from: KatieHal on June 25, 2010, 06:07:56 AM
Cesar would totally come when called by a Giant Suffer Signal. :)
Wait a minute...
QuoteChange is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix
That confirms it! The countdown will reveal that CESAR IS BATMAN!
ahh yes! congratz! you guessed it!!!
let's hope that fools them...
HI ROB ;D
Is this the end of everything? I was so excited to play this game?
can someone keep me updated?
Quote from: jmu133 on June 25, 2010, 07:29:41 AM
Is this the end of everything? I was so excited to play this game?
can someone keep me updated?
that's right. we are counting down to the end of the world!
haha no we can't keep you updated.
unless you can read my suffer smileys!
:suffer: :suffer: :suffer: :suffer: :suffer: :suffer:
well it's been a good ride!
Quote from: jmu133 on June 25, 2010, 07:45:26 AM
well it's been a good ride!
if you iz giving up, don't give up.
notice the countdown?
you should at least see what it is too before giving up!
maybeat the end of it, everyone gets a free piece of pie!
who knows?
QuoteQuote from: jmu133 on Today at 09:45:26 AM
well it's been a good ride!
You only have to wait a little while til an updat, which I'm assuming is something big, juicy and good so the ride is not yet over, in fact the ride may not have fully begun :suffer:
Quote from: Kimmie on June 25, 2010, 07:49:36 AM
QuoteQuote from: jmu133 on Today at 09:45:26 AM
well it's been a good ride!
You only have to wait a little while til an updat, which I'm assuming is something big, juicy and good so the ride is not yet over, in fact the ride may not have fully begun :suffer:
fasen ur seatbeltz!
horses don't have seatbelts! :o
Quote from: Kimmie on June 25, 2010, 07:56:54 AM
horses don't have seatbelts! :o
http://ask.metafilter.com/80799/Do-seatbelts-on-horses-improve-safety
yes they does.
the horses I ride don't, but that's because I'm hardcore! :say:
And in response to the actual link, the the horse decided to roll and you were seat bleted into place then it would be a lot more dangerous than without one ;)
Quote from: Kimmie on June 25, 2010, 07:21:00 AM
HI ROB ;D
*eyes starts to bleed*
Ehm.. hey Kimmie! :P
awh :'(
So I saw the new forum banner...and now the countdown...
O_O
Quote from: awesomeasapossum on June 25, 2010, 05:09:56 AM
P.S.: That graphic is GORGEOUS.
Yes! Loves it.
Over ten pages of recent posts; can't even remember the last time that happened. !!!
The game will be released
Activision reaches a deal
better than expected
also there will be a ...........................
A lot of ellipses? ;)
Quote from: Kimmie on June 25, 2010, 08:40:34 AM
awh :'(
*pats* sowwy, I just get scared easily by big letters *nod*nod* :P
For cat's sake. I DEMAND someone post a decoder key for those suffer smileys. They are going to destroy what is left of my sanity... :wall:
The decoder will be posted...when the counter runs out
:wall: :suffer:
Ha ha ha!!!!!!!! Forget the Cease and Desist! ;D