POStudios Forum

The Royal Archives => The Dark Age => General => Topic started by: ltra1n on March 01, 2010, 01:03:29 PM

Title: What I would do...
Post by: ltra1n on March 01, 2010, 01:03:29 PM
Police quest 3 was one of my first games... as a 5 year old i had it tough. I soon discovered laura bow, then the magic of king's quest. The games are really dear to me and I've been tracking this project for almost a 1/3 of my life. Now that a part of me has died I'm kinda devastated. It must be worse for the creators of this project. Now if I were in charge, in my angered state, I would release a beta demo trial or something under a different title to various torrent sites and maybe let some people know what's up. At least "my" work wouldn't have gone to waste... but of course I'm not in charge.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: tslstory on March 01, 2010, 01:43:11 PM
I would simply say

EDIT: link removed
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: dark-daventry on March 01, 2010, 01:49:55 PM
I would remove that link if I were you.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: MangoMercury on March 01, 2010, 02:00:27 PM
Although the link is removed now, I'm kind of concerned that someone who obviously had access to that information has really stooped so low as to release it on the forums.  Come on.  At least have the spine to admit who you are.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: dark-daventry on March 01, 2010, 02:05:11 PM
I just can't believe people are doing that. Have people really stooped that low?
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: MangoMercury on March 01, 2010, 02:18:30 PM
Apparently so, d-d. 

Again, what ticks me off more than anything is the fact that every member who was given that information was given it because they were TRUSTED.

I've been a member of this community since 2003 and have always had the utmost trust in all of the members here.  The fact that it's confidential information means that the suspects can be narrowed down, but the fact that there's such suspicion rife on the forums is saddening.  There have been disputes and spats and arguments before, but nobody has been such a downright jerk as to ruin the project.

That's right, I went there. 
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: Haids1987 on March 01, 2010, 02:23:34 PM
I'm confused, all.  What happened here that I missed? ???
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: KatieHal on March 01, 2010, 02:26:41 PM
"tslstory" anonymously posted a confidential file with story information from the game's plot. The link has been removed.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: dark-daventry on March 01, 2010, 02:28:15 PM
Quote from: MangoMercury on March 01, 2010, 02:18:30 PM
Apparently so, d-d. 

Again, what ticks me off more than anything is the fact that every member who was given that information was given it because they were TRUSTED.

I've been a member of this community since 2003 and have always had the utmost trust in all of the members here.  The fact that it's confidential information means that the suspects can be narrowed down, but the fact that there's such suspicion rife on the forums is saddening.  There have been disputes and spats and arguments before, but nobody has been such a downright jerk as to ruin the project.

That's right, I went there. 

Breaking someone's trust is a very bad thing. I know from personal experience in my own life. There are always consequences, and they aren't desirable.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: Haids1987 on March 01, 2010, 02:31:12 PM
Quote from: KatieHal on March 01, 2010, 02:26:41 PM
"tslstory" anonymously posted a confidential file with story information from the game's plot. The link has been removed.

*Sigh*

People need to calm down and stop being so immature.  Just let this thing run its course and try to help in a productive way.  It really makes me sad that "tslstory" would betray the team's trust that way.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: oberonqa on March 01, 2010, 02:35:48 PM
Yes that is very disheartening...  but unfortunately for that person... they have a non-disclosure agreement with Phoenix Online Studios and posting that link... no matter how short a time it was up.... constitutes a breach of contract.

Sucks to be that person to be sure...
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: dark-daventry on March 01, 2010, 02:39:40 PM
Quote from: oberonqa on March 01, 2010, 02:35:48 PM
Yes that is very disheartening...  but unfortunately for that person... they have a non-disclosure agreement with Phoenix Online Studios and posting that link... no matter how short a time it was up.... constitutes a breach of contract.

Sucks to be that person to be sure...

I wonder if the team has any idea who it is. Or for that matter, if activision knows who that person is. An IP address can go a long way sometimes...
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: oberonqa on March 01, 2010, 02:41:58 PM
Quote from: dark-daventry on March 01, 2010, 02:39:40 PM
I wonder if the team has any idea who it is. Or for that matter, if activision knows who that person is. An IP address can go a long way sometimes...

Indeed it can my friend.... indeed it can...
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: MangoMercury on March 01, 2010, 02:43:12 PM
I just, again, find it a very sad thing that someone has completely given up on the project to the point that they're leaking confidential information that, even being up for five minutes, could be all over the Internet right now.

...You didn't by any chance send the script to beernutts now, did you guys?
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: dark-daventry on March 01, 2010, 02:47:53 PM
Quote from: MangoMercury on March 01, 2010, 02:43:12 PM
I just, again, find it a very sad thing that someone has completely given up on the project to the point that they're leaking confidential information that, even being up for five minutes, could be all over the Internet right now.

...You didn't by any chance send the script to beernutts now, did you guys?

I don't think they'd have done that... lol. When something is up for only five seconds, it can spread like rapid fire all over the internet.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: Haids1987 on March 01, 2010, 02:49:18 PM
Quote from: MangoMercury on March 01, 2010, 02:43:12 PM
I just, again, find it a very sad thing that someone has completely given up on the project to the point that they're leaking confidential information...

Exactly right, Mango.  It's so sad and disappointing that this person has lost all hope. :no:
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: oberonqa on March 01, 2010, 02:51:32 PM
Quote from: dark-daventry on March 01, 2010, 02:47:53 PM

I don't think they'd have done that... lol. When something is up for only five seconds, it can spread like rapid fire all over the internet.

Yea... a lot depends on if the search engine spiders and auto-caching applets caught the post before the link was edited out.  Also depends on if the person posted the file up anywhere else... and if the search engine spiders and auto-caching applets are able to catch THAT.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: Yonkey on March 01, 2010, 02:52:51 PM
I'm at work right now, but rest assured that we will be investigating whoever this person is fully.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: dark-daventry on March 01, 2010, 02:54:13 PM
Quote from: Yonkey on March 01, 2010, 02:52:51 PM
I'm at work right now, but rest assured that we will be investigating whoever this person is fully.

That's good. They shouldn't have gone and done that anyway. It was wrong, and it's not fair to you guys for all that you've done.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: Haids1987 on March 01, 2010, 02:59:00 PM
Quote from: Yonkey on March 01, 2010, 02:52:51 PM
I'm at work right now, but rest assured that we will be investigating whoever this person is fully.

Hehe, sounds so ominous!   :devil:
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: Delling on March 01, 2010, 04:26:44 PM
Quote from: MangoMercury on March 01, 2010, 02:43:12 PM
I just, again, find it a very sad thing that someone has completely given up on the project to the point that they're leaking confidential information that, even being up for five minutes, could be all over the Internet right now.

...You didn't by any chance send the script to beernutts now, did you guys?

XD oh, beernutts... I wonder where our favorite trolls are these days... are they amongst the more flamey/trolly guests, perchance? *lets his curiosity idle out*

Quote from: Haids1987 on March 01, 2010, 02:59:00 PM
Quote from: Yonkey on March 01, 2010, 02:52:51 PM
I'm at work right now, but rest assured that we will be investigating whoever this person is fully.

Hehe, sounds so ominous!   :devil:
DUN DUN DUN
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: crayauchtin on March 01, 2010, 07:09:28 PM
I had assumed it was a fake, how sad that it wasn't. Very depressing. :(
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: MangoMercury on March 01, 2010, 11:59:21 PM
Mind you, I think if it were beernutts, he probably would have made it obvious it was him, since he seems to have no repercussions on his actions...

I think it's one of those things where you'd hope someone just made a fake document or something; a joke would have been funny - giving out the actual TSL stuff isn't good.  I hope you manage to find who it was, Yonkey.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: Haids1987 on March 02, 2010, 06:52:48 PM
Me too, Mango.  Let us know, Yonkers.  ;D
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: Yonkey on March 02, 2010, 10:13:21 PM
Well, the good news is that it's no one registered in the forum.  The file itself is pretty old and was uploaded at a previous site the team used to use for internal groups.  The other directors and I cleared out all other files from that website as a precaution.

As for who it is, well, they used some kind of spoofed IP address but connected from a dedicated server, which like any other ISP, prohibits the hosting of copywritten content.  It wouldn't be very difficult to report them and have them lose their server, which they're paying $99-$1000/month to use. 

For the time being, we decided to give them one chance, since it may have been done out of frustration/foolishness.  But if they try posting it again, we will report it to Activision's legal dept to investigate further.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: MangoMercury on March 02, 2010, 11:20:58 PM
Well, at least that tension is lifted - I would have hated to know it was one of our friends on here.  But here's hoping that person, or anyone else, doesn't choose to upload the document again.

Honestly, I thought it was a joke and someone had pasted a giant "Suffer" onto a page and saved it as the TSL Story.  As soon as I saw that wasn't the case, I shut it down and deleted it.  I'm not giving up on the game yet and I'll look forward to seeing these things when I'm actually playing them, NOT having them spoiled by notes.

I hope you manage to find out who it is though, Yonkey.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: crayauchtin on March 03, 2010, 12:25:41 AM
Quote from: MangoMercury on March 02, 2010, 11:20:58 PM
Honestly, I thought it was a joke and someone had pasted a giant "Suffer" onto a page and saved it as the TSL Story.  As soon as I saw that wasn't the case, I shut it down and deleted it.  I'm not giving up on the game yet and I'll look forward to seeing these things when I'm actually playing them, NOT having them spoiled by notes.
That's exactly what I did too, Mango! I refuse to have this game and this experience spoiled for me!
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: chucklas on March 03, 2010, 07:39:01 AM
When I saw what happened at first I felt upset because I missed my chance to see the plot.  That is the main reason for me playing adventure games is the story.  To be totally honest I would be happy with a book, or movie...etc.  I grew up with the characters and would love to know what direction things would have been headed.

Perhaps I still feel a bit that way, but I am glad that it did not leak too far.  From what I can tell, there is no mention of the file anywhere else at this point.  It would strike a huge blow to those working so hard to save the project.  The last thing we need is someone trying to undermine the hardwork that is currently being done.

If Activision does not budge, I will be saddened to not know the followup to the KQ tale, but I am willing to wait it out and hope that at some point we will be able to enjoy the hard work that has been done.  I would have gladly paid the $50 or whatever it is now a days for a video game to have played this one.  I hope that the efforts of the fans here helps activision realize that perhaps the genre is not dead and that the Sierra IP actually has value.  I would love it if they decided to extend some of the old series since it appears as though they dont want others doing it for them.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: MangoMercury on March 03, 2010, 10:08:38 AM
I think personally, that if there is absolutely and utterly no way that the game will ever be produced, that perhaps the plot should be posted, at least in part, because I would love to know what happens.

Of course, and I edit to add, I think this should be at the discretion of the team.  It wouldn't be right for them to be pressured into it but at the same time, I think that longtime and new followers alike would love to know the TSL team's interpretation on the continuity of the series.

But otherwise, I am willing to wait as long as it takes to actually play this experience without knowing what happens beforehand.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: Haids1987 on March 04, 2010, 03:24:19 PM
I'm with you, Mango, I'll wait until my hair turns grey. :) I keep saying this, and only because I believe it--this is not the end of TSL!  As Dumbledore said, "We must try not to sink beneath our anguish, Harry, but battle on." 
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: waltzdancing on March 04, 2010, 09:46:20 PM
I have to tell you guys what I would do if I was in TSL's shoes. There are many rights when it comes to copywrite and that is what this argument is all about. We are using Activisions, IP, expanding on their games. They have a right to complain however TSL should look into a Compulsory License, we would have to pay specified royalties and compliance with statutory conditions.

I would also talk to an attorney about the fair use clause. I know I am going to get a lot of heat about this but I would and this is what a judge would be looking at

1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
2. The nature of the copyrighted work
3. The amount and substantially of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
4. The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work.

I will use what knowledge I have of the current situation with the game and how they fit into each catergory.
1. The character of the use of the game is for pure enjoyment of a good game for the fans to play. Its not educational but it is nonprofit and I think that can be used in TSL's favor. It is also different from every other game making it completely different.
2. The nature of the work is a game nothing harmful.
3. The amount of work in the game are the characters and places. These are needed to continue the story of this family.
4. This game would not harm the market for the original work, it will enhance it and spark a new interest in it. 

If a judge can be convinced of these four issues as well, then there is no infringemen on copyrighted work and the fair use clause is in play. I would gladly donate money to this cause as this project deserves to see the light of day. Also Activision might just let us release the game because it doesn't want two court cases on its hands.

I guess we can debate this if you want.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: crayauchtin on March 05, 2010, 02:25:45 AM
When it says "nature of the work" it doesn't mean so much that it's a game (in this case), it's more of a reference of how involved the original work is and whether or not the nature of the original work would be detracted from by whatever's being added. Given how vague much of the original world is, it's pretty easy to argue that the world created and that the storyline and the games themselves are of a nature which allows for creative input from other sources.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: oberonqa on March 05, 2010, 02:32:33 AM
Quote from: waltzdancing on March 04, 2010, 09:46:20 PM
I have to tell you guys what I would do if I was in TSL's shoes. There are many rights when it comes to copywrite and that is what this argument is all about. We are using Activisions, IP, expanding on their games. They have a right to complain however TSL should look into a Compulsory License, we would have to pay specified royalties and compliance with statutory conditions.

I would also talk to an attorney about the fair use clause. I know I am going to get a lot of heat about this but I would and this is what a judge would be looking at

1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
2. The nature of the copyrighted work
3. The amount and substantially of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
4. The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work.

I will use what knowledge I have of the current situation with the game and how they fit into each catergory.
1. The character of the use of the game is for pure enjoyment of a good game for the fans to play. Its not educational but it is nonprofit and I think that can be used in TSL's favor. It is also different from every other game making it completely different.
2. The nature of the work is a game nothing harmful.
3. The amount of work in the game are the characters and places. These are needed to continue the story of this family.
4. This game would not harm the market for the original work, it will enhance it and spark a new interest in it. 

If a judge can be convinced of these four issues as well, then there is no infringemen on copyrighted work and the fair use clause is in play. I would gladly donate money to this cause as this project deserves to see the light of day. Also Activision might just let us release the game because it doesn't want two court cases on its hands.

I guess we can debate this if you want.

I'm in complete and total agreement here.  One of the Facebook Group members brought up the fair use clause and it really got me thinking... which is why I've been on a legal kick the last day or two.  It's really a gray area and that stems from the ambiguity of the way the fair use clause is written.

I think (and this is just my opinion) that fair use was created for situations such as this... fan-based derivative works.  If POS was looking to sell TSL, this wouldn't be an issue, as it would be a clear cut copyright issue.  But they aren't looking to sell TSL, which is what I think puts it in the realm of fair use.

I too would be willing to donate money towards paying legal fees... if only for a chance to get this in front of a judge so both sides can put it all on the table and let the judge decide whether it's fair use or copyright infringement.

Of course it's still too early to consider this, but if it did come to that, what would you all think if I put up a community chest where people can donate money to pay POS's legal fees?
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: crayauchtin on March 05, 2010, 02:45:13 AM
The problem, as Erpy's said, is that there was a contract so you can't really argue fair use anymore -- as much as we would all LOVE to!
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: oberonqa on March 05, 2010, 02:47:35 AM
If it was really a contract issue.... why would Activision file a C&D?  Thats what I don't get.  I am familiar with the Vivendi license that was granted and it could be revoked at any time.

That being the case, why not simply revoke the license? 

That's what doesn't add up here and Erpy is simply assuming it's a contract issue.  If it was a contract issue, there would be no need for a C&D.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: waltzdancing on March 05, 2010, 09:07:45 AM
I'd so a community chest if the petition doesn't work out. It can't be a contract issue because all they have to say is we are not going to do this and it would end right there. The fair use clause was created becuase all work is based off of something. You can't help it. POS needs to talk to a copywrite lawyer, just talk and see if they have a case or not. I don't know anything about the law but by reading this textbook really makes me think. You don't have to cover all three anyway. IF you miss the first point they will look at then they weigh the fourth one more heavily. I think in the future, TSL might have something or talk to another gameing company who can try and get the rights. Tell Tale anyone?
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: crayauchtin on March 05, 2010, 01:21:10 PM
Even if it is a contract issue, it's still not fair use because this project is technically owned by Activision since they have control over it.

At least, that's my understanding.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: waltzdancing on March 05, 2010, 03:11:55 PM
There doesn't need to be a contract when it comes to fair use. Activision owns the IP. No disputing it but if this comes down to copyright then fanfiction is infringement. If I quote a book or movie as a joke then it is infringement.

Fair use was created to allow the public some freedom. Roberta Williams used free use of the fairy tale references used throughout Kings Quest. I don't know the particulars of the agreement with Vivindi but until we know more about why the C&D order came down we can only speculate.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: racx_00 on March 06, 2010, 04:37:02 AM
Quote from: MangoMercury on March 01, 2010, 11:59:21 PM
Mind you, I think if it were beernutts, he probably would have made it obvious it was him, since he seems to have no repercussions on his actions...

I think it's one of those things where you'd hope someone just made a fake document or something; a joke would have been funny - giving out the actual TSL stuff isn't good.  I hope you manage to find who it was, Yonkey.
I really doubt Beernutts would stoop that low.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: Japster83 on March 06, 2010, 07:10:09 AM
Quote from: oberonqa on March 01, 2010, 02:35:48 PM
Yes that is very disheartening...  but unfortunately for that person... they have a non-disclosure agreement with Phoenix Online Studios and posting that link... no matter how short a time it was up.... constitutes a breach of contract.

Sucks to be that person to be sure...

As George Carlin would say- I never got a pink slip, you know what i got, a guy coming around my desk yelling "GET THE $%^& OUTTA HERE!!! What a putz, he won't be back any time soon
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: MangoMercury on March 06, 2010, 09:40:34 AM
Very true, Racxy.  He just likes to be the forum pessimist.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: racx_00 on March 07, 2010, 11:40:21 PM
Yeah, I like to think he has standards. I personally love that guy... :P
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: Erpy on March 08, 2010, 03:12:58 PM
How could Beernutts leak something if he wasn't part of the team? He wouldn't join a team he didn't think would succeed, would he?

QuoteIf it was really a contract issue.... why would Activision file a C&D?  Thats what I don't get.  I am familiar with the Vivendi license that was granted and it could be revoked at any time.

That being the case, why not simply revoke the license?  

That's what doesn't add up here and Erpy is simply assuming it's a contract issue.  If it was a contract issue, there would be no need for a C&D.

I was indeed assuming it was a contract issue, but you're right, it doesn't add up. But what exactly are you suggesting? If C&D's are only used to adress unauthorized IP use, that meant there was either no license to begin with or a license that expired at some point. In that case, you're right, you can restart the fair use debate again.

But even so, good luck finding a judge who interprets "fair use" as "take whatever you want", rather than "take whatever you absolutely need". Especially since the team already acknowledged VU's right to shut down fangames by complying with their C&D to begin with. (it's kinda contradictory to respectfully comply with their wishes and shut down and then turn around and claim the law was never on their side to begin with) But we've already been there before. :D

(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashsnc2.jpg)
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: Delling on March 08, 2010, 05:04:15 PM
Quote from: Erpy on March 08, 2010, 03:12:58 PM
But even so, good luck finding a judge who interprets "fair use" as "take whatever you want", rather than "take whatever you absolutely need".

(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashsnc2.jpg)
Hrmm... not to throw my hat too far into this conversation, but the term "absolutely need" might be arguable in this case as need could be determined by the intent of the project. As the original script IIRC from what has been said, eventually had one leaving the lands of canon KQ, it might be arguable that the inclusion of the KQ lands was a necessity to complete the stated purpose of tying up loose ends, etc.
Title: Re: What I would do...
Post by: Erpy on March 08, 2010, 05:27:36 PM
QuoteHrmm... not to throw my hat too far into this conversation, but the term "absolutely need" might be arguable in this case as need could be determined by the intent of the project. As the original script IIRC from what has been said, eventually had one leaving the lands of canon KQ, it might be arguable that the inclusion of the KQ lands was a necessity to complete the stated purpose of tying up loose ends, etc.

If the intent of the project was to create a fantasy adventure in the general spirit of the KQ series, then by taking characters/locations from the KQ series you are taking "more than is needed", since you don't need those elements to create an fantasy adventure that is merely inspired by the KQ games. (such as A Tale of Two Kingdoms, which started its life as KQ2.5)

If the intent of the project is to create a game that fits into and adds specifically to the existing KQ canon (which is what "tying up loose ends" does), then you're already admitting to doing something that according to copyright law only the IP holder is allowed to do...modify or finish up a series' canon.

(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashswt.jpg)