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The Royal Archives => Fan Feedback => Topic started by: beernutts on July 16, 2010, 01:01:06 PM

Title: "The Coin"...
Post by: beernutts on July 16, 2010, 01:01:06 PM
So, like many here, I was stuck because i didn't find the coin.  I went out onto the balcony, and look around, thinking there was something to do there, and it seemed there wasn't.  Walked around a while, was stuck, checked the forums, and realized i had to get a coin from the balcony (as i read that, I thought to myself, "geez, I've already checked the balcony, must have missed something").

I go back to the balcony, and look around a bit, and still don't see it, initially.  Finally, I happen to see a sparkle from a bowl, and I realize it must be the coin.  But, just looking at it, it looks like it's part of the decoration, and not a separate object.  Only because I knew to look in that room, and I knew to look for a coin, and because I caught the sparkle (which, because it was raining, wasn't the only thing on the screen to move, which is how other games can bring attention to an object).

The only other complaint I had about the game was the load time between screens, but the coin really bothered me.

I would suggest showing the edges of the coin, and make it so it's an object separate object from the balcony bowl-thingy.

Oh, and after 10+ years of following this project, finally something tangible.  My initial predictions of "never" have been partially refuted, but, there is still much left for this game before it's finished.  GL on the rest of the project.  Where is Say to argue with me anyway?
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: wilco64256 on July 16, 2010, 01:16:45 PM
Personally I saw the coin sticking out from the rest of the scenery the instant I stepped out onto the balcony.  That torch didn't look like the others so my immediate reaction was to click on it.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: B'rrr on July 16, 2010, 01:23:46 PM
Same kind of. can compare if with the coin in KQ6 at the beach, if you don't notice the sparkle you won't find it either.

And Say left the team a few years ago.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: I_am_so_nifty on July 16, 2010, 02:38:26 PM
*shrugs* I found the coin right away, but I suppose I just as easily could have missed it.

Was the coin even in the demo? I don't remember it being there then.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: Rosella on July 16, 2010, 02:43:03 PM
I think the coin was picked up with the Green Isles coins or something. I'm not sure, but it wasn't where it is now.

And I personally found the coin very obvious. We're taught to pay attention to anything that sparkles in an adventure game and even though I'd call the coin more glowing than sparkling, I had my attention immediately drawn to it.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: megluc on July 16, 2010, 02:52:01 PM
I think the coin was picked up with the Green Isles coins or something. I'm not sure, but it wasn't where it is now.

And I personally found the coin very obvious. We're taught to pay attention to anything that sparkles in an adventure game and even though I'd call the coin more glowing than sparkling, I had my attention immediately drawn to it.


I agree.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: MangoMercury on July 16, 2010, 06:48:32 PM
How did I miss a post by everyone's favourite pessimist?  Say left nearly three years back; in fact, your last post before this one was you posting in her farewell thread!  But at least with the release of the first episode, you seem to have toned down.  Well done!

I was actually going to say, but B'rrr covered it already, that the coin is comparable to the shiny objects on the beach on the Isle of the Crown; you don't see it right off, but then you see a small glint.  It's definitely not the first King's Quest to do so.

As for the loading times, they're really quite quick on my laptop; it may just be a case of turning the quality/resolution down a bit to get it to load a bit quicker.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: tessspoon on July 16, 2010, 06:58:05 PM
Yep, my loading screen times are a matter of seconds.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: dark-daventry on July 16, 2010, 07:49:33 PM
Welcome back, Beernuts! It's been a while since I've seen you around these parts.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: rev79 on July 16, 2010, 09:52:56 PM
The coin was hard to find?
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: Ebenezer on July 16, 2010, 10:31:08 PM
I found the coin the first time too.  It definitely stood out.  I wouldn't be opposed to seeing an old school sparkle added to it though.

And while you're at it add some puzzles and gameplay.  I couldn't find those anywhere.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: wilco64256 on July 16, 2010, 10:51:51 PM
Eb you've got nothing to worry about there, plenty of puzzling and adventuring in coming episodes.

And it's funny to note that the coin does actually sparkle or glow or whatever you want to call it.  I just noticed it so quickly the first time I went out there that I snagged it right away.  But if you go out on the balcony and just stand there it starts to sort of pulsate and makes itself pretty obvious.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: MusicallyInspired on July 17, 2010, 01:48:20 AM
I don't know why I didn't notice it the first time. But it seemed both obvious and hidden enough to me as a puzzle. I thought it was ok.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: crayauchtin on July 17, 2010, 07:18:14 AM
I thought the coin was great the way it was, I spotted it the first time (though almost by accident, I was looking around and it zoomed in on it!)
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: Kimmie on July 17, 2010, 07:34:41 AM
See this is the great thing about KQ! In some cases you'll spot something straight away, other time you'll be stumped for days!

General rule; click on anything and everything, especially things that may look strange!

If it was meant to be easy then it wouldnt be as fun!  :D
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: liggy002 on July 18, 2010, 02:51:11 PM
That's what I did, I clicked on everything!  It wasn't long, however, before the narrator was accusing me of being a Klepto  ;D
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: kindofdoon on July 18, 2010, 07:30:20 PM
I agree. The coin took up about 5 pixels on my screen.

Perhaps TSL is taking after the beginning of KQVI, where Alexander finds a coin on the beach, but that coin sparkles very obviously and frequently.

The TSL coin is practically invisible!
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: wilco64256 on July 18, 2010, 10:13:11 PM
If you can stand out there on the balcony for more than 10 seconds and not notice the pulsating yellow spot right in the middle of the screen then there's not much else they could've done to make the coin noticeable.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: sahara on July 19, 2010, 04:28:59 AM
Since the coin was a big part of what was really the only "puzzle" in all of Episode 1, I was disappointed that it was just plopped there in an almost lazy way.  It seemed like an afterthought... "oh, where will we put the coin for him to pick up?  well, let's put it out on the balcony so the player will be forced to come outside and see more of our great graphics."  I couldn't see any other reason for leaving it there to be found in that way.  I have no doubt that meticulous detail was put into the graphics and music, let's hope the same attention to detail with regard to puzzles will also be obvious in future episodes.   
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: darthkiwi on July 19, 2010, 05:46:50 AM
I missed the coin when I went onto the balcony, but then re-explored everywhere when I got stuck. When I took a second look at that screen, the coin was glaringly obvious.

Quote
Since the coin was a big part of what was really the only "puzzle" in all of Episode 1, I was disappointed that it was just plopped there in an almost lazy way.  It seemed like an afterthought... "oh, where will we put the coin for him to pick up?  well, let's put it out on the balcony so the player will be forced to come outside and see more of our great graphics."  I couldn't see any other reason for leaving it there to be found in that way.  I have no doubt that meticulous detail was put into the graphics and music, let's hope the same attention to detail with regard to puzzles will also be obvious in future episodes. 
I can see what you're getting at, but isn't object placement always a little bit random in most adventure games? I've always thought that the chain of "get object > use object > get new object > repeat" can seem a little arbitrary at times, compared to, say, a novel where every object that is picked up is probably relevant to the plot, themes and characterisation.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: sahara on July 19, 2010, 06:58:50 AM
I can see what you're getting at, but isn't object placement always a little bit random in most adventure games? I've always thought that the chain of "get object > use object > get new object > repeat" can seem a little arbitrary at times, compared to, say, a novel where every object that is picked up is probably relevant to the plot, themes and characterisation.

Yes, object placement is random in lots of adventure games, but it doesn't have to be.  Think of DOTT and the ingenious way the game has you manipulative and find objects, for example.  The clever puzzles are a big part of why that is one of the best adventure games of all time.  Still, I think random placement can be alright and still make for a fun game, as long as the puzzles are logical.  However, my problem here is that the coin is involved in essentially what is the only puzzle in the whole episode.  When you combine that with the fact that the coin's location seems to be random, I'm left wondering if puzzle gameplay was low on the priority list for the TSL designers.  When you only have one puzzle to write, you might want to make sure it is a good one.  However, I understand that Episode 1 is unique and is more of an introduction, so we'll have to wait and see.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: wilco64256 on July 19, 2010, 08:06:22 AM
Except the placement isn't totally random, if you look at the coin prior to picking it up you get a bit of explanation from Graham as to how it got there.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: sahara on July 19, 2010, 08:18:44 AM
What was the explanation?  I didn't look first.  I just saw something that looked like it needed the hand icon, so away I clicked!
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: wilco64256 on July 19, 2010, 08:25:36 AM
That he found it in his pocket while getting ready for bed and had it out there, then just left it in that bowl or whatever it is.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: sahara on July 19, 2010, 08:47:11 AM
I see.  Well, that's fine.  I'm glad they took the time to explain that.  

One thing that it reminds me of, though, is a bit of a pattern I have noticed in some of the narration descriptions and character dialogue.  Sometimes it seems like the narration and dialogue is used to cleverly explain something that is either seemingly illogical or that prevents the player from exploring an area he might be inclined to explore.  For example, there is only one guard at the front door of the castle.  The dog guard goes through a lengthy explanation of why he is the only one there, but I had the impression that there was only one guard there due to game design limitations, and that the designers decided to explain away this illogical situation with some dialogue.  Also, the room under renovation comes to mind... we are given a somewhat long explanation for why Graham can't go through the doors, but it feels more like the designers never created the room and just used a quick and easy clever explanation to limit where Graham could explore.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: KatieHal on July 19, 2010, 08:54:54 AM
Well, things like the number of doors in the Castle are established facts (in this case, from KQ6). We did our best to work within was already established--and a room under renovation is a better reason than "Nothing in there is relevant to Graham's quest, so we didn't design it," no? :)
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: wilco64256 on July 19, 2010, 09:07:07 AM
I prefer some random and interesting dialogue giving an explanation as to why you can't go somewhere over a red X coming up.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: sahara on July 19, 2010, 09:20:10 AM
Yeah, and as a player I appreciate the thought behind the explanations.  However, sometimes it can come across as a little too obvious.  Maybe just, "the door is locked" would suffice, and the player wouldn't know whether there would be something behind that door later in the game or not.  It adds a little mystery.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: wilco64256 on July 19, 2010, 09:31:11 AM
Then I'd spend the rest of the game looking for either a key or lockpicks.  That might get annoying.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: beernutts on July 21, 2010, 07:59:48 AM
Then I'd spend the rest of the game looking for either a key or lockpicks.  That might get annoying.

Kinda like the box near the blacksmith supplies that asks, how can that be open?  And, there's an Axe right next to it....

(Posted on: July 21, 2010, 09:57:41 AM)


Welcome back, Beernuts! It's been a while since I've seen you around these parts.

Blame it on Yonkey, he revoked my privileges of posting a while back, and I had to get another moderator to remove it a few days ago.

Yes, I know Say is gone, but I figured, after all the time and "effort" she put into this, she would have made an appearance when the 1st official release is completed.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: KatieHal on July 21, 2010, 08:03:27 AM
Let's not get started over on the wrong foot. Say did do a lot of great work for us when she was a part of the team, but she hasn't been for some time now. If she wants to drop in to say hi again, that's up to her, and if not, that's also up to her.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: beernutts on July 21, 2010, 08:07:05 AM
How did I miss a post by everyone's favourite pessimist?  Say left nearly three years back; in fact, your last post before this one was you posting in her farewell thread!  But at least with the release of the first episode, you seem to have toned down.  Well done!

I was actually going to say, but B'rrr covered it already, that the coin is comparable to the shiny objects on the beach on the Isle of the Crown; you don't see it right off, but then you see a small glint.  It's definitely not the first King's Quest to do so.

As for the loading times, they're really quite quick on my laptop; it may just be a case of turning the quality/resolution down a bit to get it to load a bit quicker.

Yes, but back in those days a "glint" was really noticeable (only having 256 colors makes any such animations pretty obvious).  These days, with the awesome graphics capabilities, the "glow" of the coin, along with the rain particles already in motion, made it not-as-obvious.

And, aren't adventure games beyond using a "sparkle" to notice objects?  Shouldn't things stand out on their own merits?

Just my thought.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: wilco64256 on July 21, 2010, 09:06:54 AM
Personally I typically find coins by seeing the light reflect off of them, so it doesn't seem particularly odd to me to have the coin sparkle or glow.  Now if I found a flower because it was sparkling that might be a different story.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: kindofdoon on July 28, 2010, 08:14:21 AM
Yes, but back in those days a "glint" was really noticeable (only having 256 colors makes any such animations pretty obvious).  These days, with the awesome graphics capabilities, the "glow" of the coin, along with the rain particles already in motion, made it not-as-obvious.

That's exactly right, imho.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: kyranthia on August 14, 2010, 09:50:23 PM
I just thought to look everywhere and happened to find it.  I spent more time than needed looking in vases that were scattered about the scenery, but I was thinking of in the previous games, that's how you sometimes found things.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: B'rrr on August 14, 2010, 10:08:55 PM
Yes, but back in those days a "glint" was really noticeable (only having 256 colors makes any such animations pretty obvious).  These days, with the awesome graphics capabilities, the "glow" of the coin, along with the rain particles already in motion, made it not-as-obvious.

Coin should not glint or sparkle at all when it is raining and the sun behind the clouds *nod*nod*
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: waltzdancing on August 15, 2010, 12:15:14 AM
Or was it the rain drops bouncing off making it look weird? I haven't played episode 1 in a while so I don't really remember what it looks like.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: kindofdoon on August 15, 2010, 03:01:12 AM
When I went back and looked again, I saw that it was more obvious than I originally thought. I thought for the longest time that I had to somehow open one of the chests in Graham's room.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: erenoth2002 on September 09, 2010, 03:56:17 PM
Now theres a memory, Alot of parents seem to not want their kids on the computer or gaming system and I can agree with that to some degree, however those who grew up in adventure games can all remember the development in that, i remember back in the day when i was young and unobservant missing so many crutial points and items, but experience has taught me to watch everything like a hawk, I think adventure gaming has let alot of us to think twice about things develop or logical minds and become much more observant of our surrondings, i had no problem with the coin seeing as how i learned the hard way to become observant and not miss a thing, having to restart your favorite game alot really puts it to you that you should investigate every possible angle even in the real world.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: Jujuba on September 18, 2010, 12:07:00 PM
I found the coin the first time, but I was wondering... Who put a Daventry coin in that balcony?
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: kindofdoon on September 18, 2010, 12:08:11 PM
If you look at the coin, it explains that Graham put the coin there earlier.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: wilco64256 on September 18, 2010, 12:08:36 PM
If you look at it prior to picking it up you'll get an explanation for that.
Title: Re: "The Coin"...
Post by: MangoMercury on September 18, 2010, 12:22:49 PM
Maybe the Pawn Shop owner put it there when Alexander traded it in..?