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The Royal Archives => Gaming Archives => Topic started by: TheReturnofDMD on August 04, 2010, 01:01:02 PM

Title: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 04, 2010, 01:01:02 PM
Hi

I know there was a project a while back to remake MoE as a 2D point and click adventure, however, I was wondering if anyone was interested in instead remaking MoE the way it was meant to be in 1995-1997 (the early stages), with either the "Connor as fisherman marked from birth by the Mask", or as "Connor the marble statue made flesh", along with the original design of the lands featured in many early screenshots, and the larger, more adjusted plot points (like there being two Daventry towns, a much longer Swamp witch story, an underwater level, etc).

Will it bear such hallmarks as the Kingdom of Daventry?... Connor begins his adventure in the Kingdom of Daventry, but he doesn't stay there long. Seven new lands await!... The world of King's Quest: The Mask of Eternity reaches from the sunless Underworld of the living dead through the alchemical plains of Earth, Air, Water, and Fire, into the ether of the Celestial Realm--and even to a dark mysterious island temple...
 
--InterAction, Fall 1996


''Daventry would have been much larger zone, with villages, green forests, and farms. It would have taken place during the day (as opposed to the darkness seen in the current game). At one point during the production they added a darker cloudy sky, before finally settling on the pitch black Daventry in the game. The swamp would have been part of Daventry.
There was apparently going to be another zone near Daventry set by the sea, near a seaside tower, in a green hilly area. Another removed zone appears to have been set underwater, with seaweed, fish, and ancient ruins.
Dimension of Death would have been named the Underworld. The art style of the "Underworld" would have been much different, using a Mesopotamian style rather than the current Egyptian motif.
'
'

Here are some early screenshots and info, courtesy of Baggins at the KQ Omnipedia, and two making of video from this early stage:
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155658/kingsquest/images/5/55/Riveroflava.JPG)

Connor:
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155821/kingsquest/images/8/81/Connorconcept.JPG)
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100710230636/kingsquest/images/d/dd/Connormaclyrrsideview.jpg)

Daventry:
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155422/kingsquest/images/f/fa/DaventryMoE1.JPG)
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155205/kingsquest/images/d/de/Daventry4.JPG
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100711151040/kingsquest/images/4/4f/HouseMOEearly3.jpg)
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100711151444/kingsquest/images/2/21/HouseMOEearly4.jpg)
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155205/kingsquest/images/d/de/Daventry4.JPG)
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155633/kingsquest/images/0/02/Farmhouse.JPG) Notice the old well of Daventry
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155721/kingsquest/images/c/ca/CutHydra.JPG) Outskirts of alternate Daventry town with Hydra
(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155323/kingsquest/images/6/6d/DaventrywoodsMoE.JPG)

Abandoned Underwater level
(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155517/kingsquest/images/f/f5/Underwater.JPG)
(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155205/kingsquest/images/e/e6/Underwater2.JPG)


Early "Ice World":
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100711144145/kingsquest/images/f/fd/Frostymountains.jpg)
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155218/kingsquest/images/a/a8/Frostymountains.JPG)


Concept Art:

A cockatrice:
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110160037/kingsquest/images/6/62/CockatriceMoE.JPG)

Red Cap Goblin (a cut boss):
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100710225734/kingsquest/images/5/5e/Redcapconcept.jpg)

Wood Elf:
(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155705/kingsquest/images/3/3c/PlantelfMoE.JPG)


Daventry world map:
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100711141961/kingsquest/images/b/b5/Brainstormwordmap2.jpg)
(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100710223636/kingsquest/images/d/db/MOEconceptmap.jpg)

----Notice Daventry is much brighter and more ''woodland''-ish, like the Daventry of the original games. The trees are alive, the sky is sunny with clouds, etc--Not like the dead, dark land of Daventy in the final version.

--Also, according to the info Baggins has collected, like in the original games, Castle Daventry would be in the center of a valley (think of the KQ5 intro) and all of the worlds would ''fan out'' from Daventry; There would be no load time between worlds. It would be a wide, open world--Like in Grand Theft Auto
Castle Daventry was to be explored in full, with Rosella being seen (turned to stone like everyone else). That was cut too due to budget and other reasons.
You were also to encounter a Lepreachaun inside the Old CastleKeep of Daventry

--The Swamp Witches' role was supposed to be much larger, and she would've had a human form with which to 'lure' Connor to her castle, to kill him--Like many a vile witch in fairy tales. A lot of it was cut due to budget and other reasons. This was her human form:
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155909/kingsquest/images/a/ae/Disguisedswampwitch.JPG)
and a concept art of it:
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100710230048/kingsquest/images/b/b8/Swampwitch_concept.jpg)

A description of the Swamp witch: ''"In Daventry there is this Swamp, and there is this Swamp Witch in there, and she kinda looks like a part snake, part alligator, and part mermaid."
"She would have been able to change herself into a beautiful woman, to persuade Connor into thinking she was good, and lure her into her castle, before exposing herself, and showing her true form. Conner would have been forced to escape, and fight her for his life. This was removed from the final version of the game as well, and the witch stays outside of her castle. However references to the witch's wiles are still mentioned if you examine the skeletons in her castle. Most if not all info relating to this encounter exists in material relating to the 'Connor mac Lyrr' phase of the game."-Mark Seibert

-Much of the game would've been first person (for example when you're walking, it would be first person). 'Third Person' views would've only been for "story point areas" (possibly conversations, cut scenes, battles?). So the game would be primarily first person--You would see the world through Connor's eyes for most of the game. I think in the final version (as in the development article which Baggins created from info he collected, Roberta said the game went through three different versions) the 'compromise' where you can toggle at will between the first and third persons was created. However, from the interview with Roberta that Baggins found, it sounds like the game originally was supposed to mostly first person, with some third person parts.  Think Doom or Quake.

"One of the earliest phases of the game's story (mentioned around late 1995), Connor, then unnamed was to be a marble statue of a knight that was brought to life at the moment of the cataclysm that turned everyone living into stone. The game was primarily going to be in first-person, and switch to 3rd person for cutscenes, and certain puzzle areas."
''

Firebugs would've been in the Hot Lands, but were removed, and Connor would've had to fight them in a unique way since you can't fight fire with fire
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155515/kingsquest/images/2/2b/Firebug.jpg)


Influence:

"With past King's Quest games I focused around the Royal Family," Roberta Explains. "But I've done just about as much as I could with the Royal Family. I knew I needed to bring in a new character, and I wanted the character to be less Disney-ish and more cerebral. The spiritual father of Mask is J.R.R. Tolkien not Walt Disney," she concluded firmly. Connor is very much a new character. He is an inhabitant of Daventry, a kingdom he doesn't rule but whose fate lies in his hands. A terrible curse has turned all of the people living in Daventry, including the Royal Family themselves, into stone. Connor must find the answers behind the curse, including why it's been imposed, who imposed it, and, possibly most importantly, why he alone has been spared the terrible fate of his comrades. Connor is a warrior and it's his combination of strength, cunning, intuition, and intellect that makes him best-suited to save the kingdom."
--Roberta

It would seem the King's Quest series has grown up a bit with the creation of Mask. Evidence of this continually surfaces throughout the game but is especially apparent with the central antagonist and Archarchon, Lucreto. His storyline parallels that of Lucifer, the fallen angel whose attempt to overtake Heaven ends him up in Hell.


The Engine:

It was originally designed using the 3space engine that was used in Dynamix flight simulators (the engine from Red Baron to be exact) from the period, just to get an idea of what the replication engine would need to be like.

The Remake would be in 3D but not modern 3D; It would use an antiquated style of 3D graphics to replicate almost exactly what's seen in those early screenshots shown above, with perhaps a "Doom" clone engine (there are plenty of free-be Doom WADs, designed from the engine). Basically the idea of this remake would be to create the version of MoE that could've and would've (if not for the sale to CUC) been released in 1996 or 1997.

I was wondering who would want to work on this with me? I think if done right it could be end up being a great  (free) remake version of MoE.

(All of the inside development info was discovered over time by Baggins and comes from http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Mask_of_Eternity_Development ) My thanks to him for his hard work and research over the years.
 

Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 04, 2010, 04:07:43 PM
Quote
The Remake would be in 3D but not modern 3D; It would use an antiquated style of 3D graphics to replicate almost exactly what's seen in those early screenshots shown above, with perhaps a "Doom" clone engine (there are plenty of free-be Doom WADs, designed from the engine). Basically the idea of this remake would be to create the version of MoE that could've and would've (if not for the sale to CUC) been released in 1996 or 1997.

Doom is too primitive actually. It doesn't allow for multi tiered levels with the ability to walk under an overhanging platform (of the sort seen in MOE).

Also Doom uses 2-d sprites. Even the earliest MOE characters models were in full 3-d.

I'd personally suggest the Dark-engine used by Thief 1 and 2. It would give you little more robust things to work with as far as scripting and storyline, and general copycat of the early graphical style..

Quote
----Notice Daventry is much brighter and more ''woodland''-ish, like the Daventry of the original games. The trees are alive, the sky is sunny with clouds, etc--Not like the dead, dark land of Daventy in the final version.

--Also, according to the info Baggins has collected, like in the original games, Castle Daventry would be in the center of a valley (think of the KQ5 intro) and all of the worlds would ''fan out'' from Daventry; There would be no load time between worlds. It would be a wide, open world--Like in Grand Theft Auto
Castle Daventry was to be explored in full, with Rosella being seen (turned to stone like everyone else). That was cut too due to budget and other reasons.
You were also to encounter a Lepreachaun inside the Old CastleKeep of Daventry
Be warned that that was probably actually from phase 1, the prototype/concept phase, before they started on an engine, even before they began desiging the levels (although there is no way of knowing when each of the parts in the Roberta Williams Anthology making video were filmed, and which order represents the actual design process in that video). Its certainly before the use of 3space though. As are most concept artwork.

Whatever, the case it was very early in the process. Once they started working with the prototype 3space engine they dropped that idea, and switched over to palletted individual levels. It was a limitation of the 3space engine. Linear individual levels was also something Roberta preferred.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 04, 2010, 04:28:47 PM
Quote
The Remake would be in 3D but not modern 3D; It would use an antiquated style of 3D graphics to replicate almost exactly what's seen in those early screenshots shown above, with perhaps a "Doom" clone engine (there are plenty of free-be Doom WADs, designed from the engine). Basically the idea of this remake would be to create the version of MoE that could've and would've (if not for the sale to CUC) been released in 1996 or 1997.

Doom is too primitive actually. It doesn't allow for multi tiered levels with the ability to walk under an overhanging platform (of the sort seen in MOE).

Also Doom uses 2-d sprites. Even the earliest MOE characters models were in full 3-d.

I'd personally suggest the Dark-engine used by Thief 1 and 2. It would give you little more robust things to work with as far as scripting and storyline, and general copycat of the early graphical style..

What do you mean in term of 'multi-tiered levels'?
and is the Dark engine free use in the way that the Doom engine is?
Cause basically what I'm going for is an exact remake of what the early screenshots show--I want it to look like a mid 90s 3D game like the screenshots show, so it shouldn't be that much work for anyone versed in 3D.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 04, 2010, 04:48:03 PM
Multi-tier, think of a multi story building, with a first and second floor.

Think of the Witch's castle, remember how there was a causeway that goes over to a side tower? You can also walk under that causeway? Doom doesn't allow that. Basically its limited to single plain, you can go up and down staircases and elevators and what not. But there are no "two story buildings, you essentially remain on a single plain, and just go up and down within that plane, but things always remain "single floor". So no way to go to a second floor that is above a first floor, or go into a basement below a another floor.

Well you'd have to own Dark Engine game to use the dark engine. It comes with the level creator though. So anyone with a copy of the game would be able to use your levels.
Quote
Cause basically what I'm going for is an exact remake of what the early screenshots show--I want it to look like a mid 90s 3D game like the screenshots show, so it shouldn't be that much work for anyone versed in 3D.
Ya, but those screenshots are showing full 3-d world and 3-d character models like Quake era style engine.

As I said Doom is way too early, its all 2-d sprites (and lacked the ability to have multistory buildings).

Quake engine could get you the multi-story buildings, but I don't know where it stands as far as scripting ability.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 04, 2010, 05:07:22 PM
Multi-tier, think of a multi story building, with a first and second floor.

Think of the Witch's castle, remember how there was a causeway that goes over to a side tower? You can also walk under that causeway? Doom doesn't allow that. Basically its limited to single plain, you can go up and down staircases and elevators and what not. But there are no "two story buildings, you essentially remain on a single plain, and just go up and down within that plane, but things always remain "single floor". So no way to go to a second floor that is above a first floor, or go into a basement below a another floor.

Well you'd have to own Dark Engine game to use the dark engine. It comes with the level creator though. So anyone with a copy of the game would be able to use your levels.
Quote
Cause basically what I'm going for is an exact remake of what the early screenshots show--I want it to look like a mid 90s 3D game like the screenshots show, so it shouldn't be that much work for anyone versed in 3D.
Ya, but those screenshots are showing full 3-d world and 3-d character models like Quake era style engine.

As I said Doom is way too early, its all 2-d sprites (and lacked the ability to have multistory buildings).

Quake engine could get you the multi-story buildings, but I don't know where it stands as far as scripting ability.

Well if you could delve more into it, that would be great; I'm very ignorant when it comes to 'tech' stuff. I'm more versed in the creative, organizational and general direction end of things--Not the software or programming end.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 04, 2010, 05:09:50 PM
Well, I'm more of a game historian if anything. I'm not a programmer. So I wouldn't know the finer details. Most of my knowledge is based off just experience growing up with these games. The fact that I'm writing my dissertation on a related topic (no its not on KQ, LOL, but military FPS).

BTW, the reason I was suggesting Thief, was it does have a fairly robust scripting built in already. It allows for lots of cool things like scrolls, books, etc to read. Its got alot of adventure game aspects to it, for being stealth action game.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: scintilla on August 04, 2010, 05:19:03 PM
:D Wow, you really found a lot of stuff on the early MOE, DMD!

I dont know if I'd really want to see another action-adventure KQ game based on this old stuff, but it would be neat to see a MOE remake in more of a classic adventure style with all those familiar locations. Maybe the remake could even be called "King's Quest VIII" (since MOE never officially was a numbered KQ game, lol!).
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 04, 2010, 05:22:00 PM
Also keep in mind if you limit yourself to one of these early engines, you'll probably hitting that same "palleted" level problem that 3Space had. That was reason they were limited to linear themed levels in the first place.

You might also not have access to some of the breakthroughs of the 3Space engine like colored lighting, advanced shadows, etc.

To be fair you could actually probably use any modern engine, and intentionally use lower quality models, if that is the look you are going for. You'd also have the tools and then some for scripting, level design, advanced physics, etc (the stuff that simply didn't exist when Roberta made the game, and was one of the main reasons they had to cut material in the first place).

I really don't think you want to go through the trouble they ultimately chose not to go through (I.E designing all your special features from scratch :p)... They were already pushing the Roberta's average development cycle by going three years on the project at the time, way higher budget than she normally put into the game (3 million)(according to Talk Spot interview).

Quote
since MOE never officially was a numbered KQ game,

Not entirely true, btw. It was numbered KQ VIII in quite a few official sources (I'd point to Roberta William's Anthology as a major example), Roberta even called it KQ VIII herself several times. It just didn't have the VIII on the box (other than several references to "Eighth game in the series" type quotes on the box).

The main reason for leaving it off the box? The rumor is so she wouldn't alienate potential buyers. Many of Sierra's games were dropping the numbers (Quest for Glory: Shadows of Darkness, Police Quest: Open Season, Police Quest: SWAT, for example).
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 04, 2010, 05:35:15 PM
:D Wow, you really found a lot of stuff on the early MOE, DMD!

I dont know if I'd really want to see another action-adventure KQ game based on this old stuff, but it would be neat to see a MOE remake in more of a classic adventure style with all those familiar locations. Maybe the remake could even be called "King's Quest VIII" (since MOE never officially was a numbered KQ game, lol!).

Yeah, but Roberta really never got to release "Her" KQ8. I'd like to make it as close as possible, and as a bonus, it would be a KQ8 that would actually work on computers past Windows XP.
It would be a great project. I personally don't see anything wrong with the action.

Baggins, so besides the Dark engine, what are some others you'd suggest? I just want to go for that retro 3D look--Nothing modern at all.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 04, 2010, 05:45:08 PM
The problem is she didn't seem to have "her MOE" defined. They took so much time debating over little details like should a boss be Red Cap Goblin, or should it be "Leprechaun" they never even got that simple detail in... Instead tossing in the less interesting Spriggan Leader. Ya, those three were all the same characters (with different skin/ai/background).

As she states in the Talkspot Interviews there were some ideas they simply couldn't have done, the technology didn't exist yet. The swimming stuff for example was dropped quite early in the development, due to physics limitations (possibly early version of the "Connor mac Lyrr" phase, but the timing is unclear).

Best I've learned or been told, she actually chose to drop the whole Connor mac Lyrr (fisherman connor), preferring to simplify it to Connor of Daventry, Tanner, before the funding issue cropped up.

That change didn't actually have anything to do with the funding cuts, but simply intentional story revisions. There were some cuts in between early Connor of Daventry and late released Connor of Daventry stage though (or some graphic changes like gnome appearances), removal of rain cloud skybox in Daventry, more plants and trees, possibly an extended ending cutscene (with Connor meeting Graham). I'm not entirely sure when the extended Swamp Witch material was cut either. But seems it must have been pretty early, to the point that Roberta actually forgot about it.

Quote
"Well, it was in the design at one time"-Mark Seibert
"The swamp witch turned into a beautiful lady? I don't remember that in the design?-Roberta Williams
"Remember in the design, she was going to be like this siren, she was going to be this beautiful woman, that if you followed her up into the top of the tower, she would..."-Mark Seibert.
"Oh that's right."-Roberta Williams
"That was a long time ago"-Mark Seibert
"That was long...that was like two designs before the design that we...I tell you...I didn't remember that, that is amazing...little bit of trivia that is true."-Roberta Williams
"Actually I think if we could go back into the design, I think I would advocate doing more with her. I think she was much more fun character. I think I would have liked to have been able to see her inside her castle, and to do some things with her in there. Which we had originally planned, but it's one of those things. It's always painful to see the leftover design that gets left on the cutting room floor, and you just think about that. The Swamp Witch is real fun."-Talkspot Part 2, December 1998.

So i'd be careful trying to say your "defining her vision" but rather defining what you would have rather seen in the game (your vision based on prototype visions). Only way you'd know what her "vision" was is either talk to her, or just read or hear her quotes from interviews (from around the game's release) to gleen what she changed intentionally and what she was forced to change.

Quote
Baggins, so besides the Dark engine, what are some others you'd suggest? I just want to go for that retro 3D look--Nothing modern at all.
You can get the retro look with any engine, including modern engines. Graphics are all about the models you use in the game, not the engine itself. You want a blocky character models, you just make blocky character models.

As I mentioned, if you use the really early engines, you will probably hit a problem with either the fact that it doesn't have the physics capabilities, scripting capabilities, etc, that made MOE too ambitious in the first place. Whereas if you use a modern engine, that has those abilities built in already, all you would have to do is just make the game with retro graphics, and you'll also have all the tools at hand for the other features that would have been included in the earliest phase.

Quote
Notice the old well of Daventry
Well, to be fair there is no evidence that is the "old well". It could be, but it isn't necessarily.

The area doesn't even look to have a forest around it (not even a charred forest), so it could be "anywhere". last time we saw the ancient well, it was uh broken and filled with rocks.

Also while old well has been given two different physical appearances, although a wooden roof in KQ1 original/KQ3 (albeit its a very big well in KQ1 original), it was was made out of stone in the remake.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 04, 2010, 07:36:15 PM
The problem is she didn't seem to have "her MOE" defined. They took so much time debating over little details like should a boss be Red Cap Goblin, or should it be "Leprechaun" they never even got that simple detail in... Instead tossing in the less interesting Spriggan Leader. Ya, those three were all the same characters (with different skin/ai/background).

As she states in the Talkspot Interviews there were some ideas they simply couldn't have done, the technology didn't exist yet. The swimming stuff for example was dropped quite early in the development, due to physics limitations (possibly early version of the "Connor mac Lyrr" phase, but the timing is unclear).

Best I've learned or been told, she actually chose to drop the whole Connor mac Lyrr (fisherman connor), preferring to simplify it to Connor of Daventry, Tanner, before the funding issue cropped up.

That change didn't actually have anything to do with the funding cuts, but simply intentional story revisions. There were some cuts in between early Connor of Daventry and late released Connor of Daventry stage though (or some graphic changes like gnome appearances), removal of rain cloud skybox in Daventry, more plants and trees, possibly an extended ending cutscene (with Connor meeting Graham). I'm not entirely sure when the extended Swamp Witch material was cut either. But seems it must have been pretty early, to the point that Roberta actually forgot about it.

Quote
"Well, it was in the design at one time"-Mark Seibert
"The swamp witch turned into a beautiful lady? I don't remember that in the design?-Roberta Williams
"Remember in the design, she was going to be like this siren, she was going to be this beautiful woman, that if you followed her up into the top of the tower, she would..."-Mark Seibert.
"Oh that's right."-Roberta Williams
"That was a long time ago"-Mark Seibert
"That was long...that was like two designs before the design that we...I tell you...I didn't remember that, that is amazing...little bit of trivia that is true."-Roberta Williams
"Actually I think if we could go back into the design, I think I would advocate doing more with her. I think she was much more fun character. I think I would have liked to have been able to see her inside her castle, and to do some things with her in there. Which we had originally planned, but it's one of those things. It's always painful to see the leftover design that gets left on the cutting room floor, and you just think about that. The Swamp Witch is real fun."-Talkspot Part 2, December 1998.

So i'd be careful trying to say your "defining her vision" but rather defining what you would have rather seen in the game (your vision based on prototype visions). Only way you'd know what her "vision" was is either talk to her, or just read or hear her quotes from interviews (from around the game's release) to gleen what she changed intentionally and what she was forced to change.

Quote
Baggins, so besides the Dark engine, what are some others you'd suggest? I just want to go for that retro 3D look--Nothing modern at all.
You can get the retro look with any engine, including modern engines. Graphics are all about the models you use in the game, not the engine itself. You want a blocky character models, you just make blocky character models.

As I mentioned, if you use the really early engines, you will probably hit a problem with either the fact that it doesn't have the physics capabilities, scripting capabilities, etc, that made MOE too ambitious in the first place. Whereas if you use a modern engine, that has those abilities built in already, all you would have to do is just make the game with retro graphics, and you'll also have all the tools at hand for the other features that would have been included in the earliest phase.

Quote
Notice the old well of Daventry
Well, to be fair there is no evidence that is the "old well". It could be, but it isn't necessarily.

The area doesn't even look to have a forest around it (not even a charred forest), so it could be "anywhere". last time we saw the ancient well, it was uh broken and filled with rocks.

Also while old well has been given two different physical appearances, although a wooden roof in KQ1 original/KQ3 (albeit its a very big well in KQ1 original), it was was made out of stone in the remake.

Basically I'd like to get as close as to the unadulterated vision as possible and create a game based around that. Try to get all of the cut stuff, use the original graphics that we see in the '96 InterAction, and also use some of the elements of the 1997 version. Basically a mix of the "Connor MacLyrr" and "Connor the son of the Fisherman" stage. And make the dialogue in modern or pseudo-modern English like in the previous games.  Maybe even add in some stuff that wasn't there--She said the influence on Mask was JRR Tolkien--it could become an epic if the story is given a bit more depth.

Basically it would be the 1995-1997 Mask of Eternity++ remake. Take little elements from the 1996 and 1997 versions:
-Keep the '96 graphics with Daventry as a brighter place (live trees, daylight, the Well, the Castle in the Valley, the world radiating out from Daventry with the town and seaside town with Hydra).
-Put in the cut storylines and subplots and adventures (such as searching in the Underwater world for Amethyst, and the element of the sunken ship that's on one of the design notes I showed you--In Roberta's notes she writes that the pirates were about to raid Daventry)
-Put in cut locations such as the Underwater Level, expand Paradise Lost
-Give a more darker, Mesopotamian look to the Underworld and maybe even a darker atmosphere--Like the KQ4 spookiness
-Keep the idea of a mythical Hermit and Island King mentioned in Roberta's note.
-Keep the 1996 version of Connor (with the Arabian outfit, keeping the same outfit throughout the game--No changes of armor) and the story version of Connor as Marble Statue turned to life or (keeping with the Christian elements such as Paradise Lost and Lucreto as Lucifer), take the '97 "Connor the Fisherman" angle.
-Add in more depth to the "Lucreto as Lucifer/Fallen Angel" angle, really make the villain a deeper character.
-Make the Zombies less Mummy looking, more like the KQ6 zombies.
-Keep the idea of the "Green Man" (of myth) which is mentioned in Roberta's notes.
-Keep the idea of the "Wood Whisps" mentioned in Roberta's notes.
-Keep the idea of the "Phoenix egg" as an item that needs to be given to an alchemist.
-Give a fulfilling ending where Connor meets King Graham and is rewarded or praised
-Keep the subplot of saving the Bandit in the Barren Regions from Roberta's notes
-Keep the ''Dark Abyss'' mentioned in her note
-Keep BOTH the Leprechaun and Red Cap Goblin, put them in separate locations. Maybe turn the Leprechaun into a good character, with a hint of the lightness of KQ5 to his character.
-Make the dialogue modern English like in KQ2-KQVII, or return to the Pseudo-Modern English of the KQ1 Remake.

Sort of like the KQ2+ VGA remake.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 05, 2010, 02:03:30 AM
Interesting ideas, and would make for a fun game, however, just a few corrections on your history.
Quote
Connor MacLyrr" and "Connor the son of the Fisherman
"
That's both the same stage actually. The Connor mac Lyrr and Connor the son of the Fisherman are the same stage. The whole mac Lyrr name was actually a nod to his fisherman/sea roots. Look up the mac Lyrr family mythology. The son of the fisherman stuff actually was first mentioned in Interaction, when were given the mac Lyrr name.

The Connor of Daventry stage was him being just the "tanner".
Quote
keeping the same outfit throughout the game--No changes of armor
Well technically I don't think that was the plan exactly. What we see in the 1996 screen shots is very early staged screenshots. Basically there was no game at that point. They were building levels and character designs in 3Spaces 3-d modeler/level designer program (not the actual game engine itself at that point, I.E. not playable), so everything was staged, they had that initial Connor model, and were just putting him into shots.

The playable game engine itself (i.e. not the level/model editor) was being designed at Dynamix at the time, away from Sierra's studios. Sierra was hoping they would have the physics material included in time for them to start implementing their level designs and characters into the game.

This is why there is can't be any "demo version" of that era. We'd be lucky if someone had the model and early level files though, and were willing to turn them over :p... that's just wishful thinking however

It's pure speculation to think that's "how he would be throughout the entire game". Nothing ever stated he would remain in the same outfit throughout the entire game.

Infact the outfit changing thing and Connor's ultimate appearance had nothing to do with the "time and money" issue, seeing as it actually was an expenditure to add realism to the game. It would have taken time and money to implement that technology. If they wanted to save time and money, they could have went the route of not changing his outfits, and leaving him with his initial appearance. But they didn't do that, and instead took the time to develop his appearance.
Quote
Make the Zombies less Mummy looking, more like the KQ6 zombies.
What's wrong with the mummy zombies? I think that would fit better into the mesopotamian Underworld (barring making the zombies wear mesopotamian style outfits). Even when we saw the last of the "mesopotamian style" underworld in early "Connor of Daventry", they were using mummy like zombies.

Besides that pirate zombies (KQ6) just wouldn't fit Mesopotamian theme at all, LOL.
Quote
and Lucreto as Lucifer
Point of note actually the Lucifer angle was never dropped. He was the head of the archons saw himself greater than God (the Mask), and fomented a rebellion in Heaven. The only difference in the original story, Lucifer was kicked out of heaven. Lucreto gets kicked into another dimension (by Connor).

I can see you wanting to extend that story further though.
Quote
and the story version of Connor as Marble Statue turned to life
That's pre-connor prototype stage (before all the Connor mac Lyrr stuff), when the character had no name, and would be the mysterious living statue, when all humans were turned to stone, and the statue turned to life.

Quote
Wood Whisps
Point of trivia, I think those evolved into the Swamp Wisps. The Green Man decription seems he might have evolved into King Mudge storyline.

Quote
the world radiating out from Daventry
That didn't happen in the 1996 version (its pre concept stage). As soon as they actually started making the 1996 version, they were stuck having to do linear stuff. Because the 3Space level editor/modeler being used by Sierra and engine being designed over at Dynamix wouldn't allow anything else but that, the whole palette issue (that and Roberta wanted to have things more linear).

Quote
Keep BOTH the Leprechaun and Red Cap Goblin, put them in separate locations. Maybe turn the Leprechaun into a good character, with a hint of the lightness of KQ5 to his character.
Ya, interesting idea, just don't claim it was "Roberta's idea". We have a pretty clear history from her on that subject. She's the one that stated they were variations of the same character (she couldn't decide which to use, LOL).

On a side note, I don't think the change to the Gnome's appearances has anything to do with the "budget cuts"... Because they actually would have expended more time and money to change the models from the dwarf gnomes into the pasty gnomes they finally decided upon.

But if you want to play on that you could have them as two seperate races, perhaps a race of dwarfs and the gnomes, maybe at war with each other. Connor has to bring peace between the two races.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 05, 2010, 05:48:24 AM
Interesting ideas, and would make for a fun game, however, just a few corrections on your history.
Quote
Connor MacLyrr" and "Connor the son of the Fisherman
"
That's both the same stage actually. The Connor mac Lyrr and Connor the son of the Fisherman are the same stage. The whole mac Lyrr name was actually a nod to his fisherman/sea roots. Look up the mac Lyrr family mythology. The son of the fisherman stuff actually was first mentioned in Interaction, when were given the mac Lyrr name.

The Connor of Daventry stage was him being just the "tanner".
Quote
keeping the same outfit throughout the game--No changes of armor
Well technically I don't think that was the plan exactly. What we see in the 1996 screen shots is very early staged screenshots. Basically there was no game at that point. They were building levels and character designs in 3Spaces 3-d modeler/level designer program (not the actual game engine itself at that point, I.E. not playable), so everything was staged, they had that initial Connor model, and were just putting him into shots.

The playable game engine itself (i.e. not the level/model editor) was being designed at Dynamix at the time, away from Sierra's studios. Sierra was hoping they would have the physics material included in time for them to start implementing their level designs and characters into the game.

This is why there is can't be any "demo version" of that era. We'd be lucky if someone had the model and early level files though, and were willing to turn them over :p... that's just wishful thinking however

It's pure speculation to think that's "how he would be throughout the entire game". Nothing ever stated he would remain in the same outfit throughout the entire game.

Infact the outfit changing thing and Connor's ultimate appearance had nothing to do with the "time and money" issue, seeing as it actually was an expenditure to add realism to the game. It would have taken time and money to implement that technology. If they wanted to save time and money, they could have went the route of not changing his outfits, and leaving him with his initial appearance. But they didn't do that, and instead took the time to develop his appearance.
Quote
Make the Zombies less Mummy looking, more like the KQ6 zombies.
What's wrong with the mummy zombies? I think that would fit better into the mesopotamian Underworld (barring making the zombies wear mesopotamian style outfits). Even when we saw the last of the "mesopotamian style" underworld in early "Connor of Daventry", they were using mummy like zombies.

Besides that pirate zombies (KQ6) just wouldn't fit Mesopotamian theme at all, LOL.
Quote
and Lucreto as Lucifer
Point of note actually the Lucifer angle was never dropped. He was the head of the archons saw himself greater than God (the Mask), and fomented a rebellion in Heaven. The only difference in the original story, Lucifer was kicked out of heaven. Lucreto gets kicked into another dimension (by Connor).

I can see you wanting to extend that story further though.
Quote
and the story version of Connor as Marble Statue turned to life
That's pre-connor prototype stage (before all the Connor mac Lyrr stuff), when the character had no name, and would be the mysterious living statue, when all humans were turned to stone, and the statue turned to life.

Quote
Wood Whisps
Point of trivia, I think those evolved into the Swamp Wisps. The Green Man decription seems he might have evolved into King Mudge storyline.

Quote
the world radiating out from Daventry
That didn't happen in the 1996 version (its pre concept stage). As soon as they actually started making the 1996 version, they were stuck having to do linear stuff. Because the 3Space level editor/modeler being used by Sierra and engine being designed over at Dynamix wouldn't allow anything else but that, the whole palette issue (that and Roberta wanted to have things more linear).

Quote
Keep BOTH the Leprechaun and Red Cap Goblin, put them in separate locations. Maybe turn the Leprechaun into a good character, with a hint of the lightness of KQ5 to his character.
Ya, interesting idea, just don't claim it was "Roberta's idea". We have a pretty clear history from her on that subject. She's the one that stated they were variations of the same character (she couldn't decide which to use, LOL).

On a side note, I don't think the change to the Gnome's appearances has anything to do with the "budget cuts"... Because they actually would have expended more time and money to change the models from the dwarf gnomes into the pasty gnomes they finally decided upon.

But if you want to play on that you could have them as two seperate races, perhaps a race of dwarfs and the gnomes, maybe at war with each other. Connor has to bring peace between the two races.

1) Well, I'm still deciding on whether to go with the Son of the Fisherman angle or the Marble Statue turned to Life angle.
2) We can never know for sure, however I myself always found the changing of armor to be a bit silly (I know, it was to supplement the RPG part of the game) and keeping one costume would be more in line with past King's Quest games.
3) Perhaps the Zombies in the Underworld can Mummy looking, and the Zombies in Daventry can be more Ghoulish looking.
4) I think expanding it just a bit might make Lucreto more of an interesting villain. His motives aren't really well developed in the game, all he does is break the Mask and we're never given an explanation in game as to why he does so.
5) See number one. I'm not sure on what Connor should be in the remake yet.
6) Maybe. We don't know for sure. I don't see how the "Green Man" could be turned into a Snail though.
7) I still think the 'non' linear design is better. Or maybe some worlds (like the Underworld, The Temple Islands, Paradise Lost) will be non-linear, but others (like the Swamp and Barren Region) will be linear.
8) Well, I won't claim it's 'Roberta's idea.' Perhaps the Leprechaun could look like the Leprechauns of KQI. Maybe he'd actually be a bad guy, in league with Lucreto's side because he was promised the return of the Shield of Daventry to his people--I mean Roberta was going for Tolkien, I'd say that's Tolkien-esque.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 05, 2010, 06:20:20 AM
Quote
We can never know for sure, however I myself always found the changing of armor to be a bit silly (I know, it was to supplement the RPG part of the game) and keeping one costume would be more in line with past King's Quest games.
Well, actually we do have a few quotes on the development of the armor system. Quite a bit was mentioned in the Interaction magazines IIRC. However, it's always possible although he changes armor, that to the player he would have just "appeared the same".

Although in the released version, though some of the armor is actually tied directly into the plot/puzzles/objectives.

We also know that all the screenshots with the proto-conner, were done on the 3Space level/model editor, and not the game engine itself (which at the time was still being developed out of studio at Dynamix). So represent a non-playable sandbox more or less, that could show model animations (in the model mode), but could also allow levels to be constructed and allow models to be placed into the levels (for appearances). Extremely primitive interface, mainly allowing the "player to "fly" around the map (note the airplane cursor). It also seemed to allow the user to target a model, and "rotate around it" in relation to other background objects.

Quote
think expanding it just a bit might make Lucreto more of an interesting villain. His motives aren't really well developed in the game, all he does is break the Mask and we're never given an explanation in game as to why he does so.
Actually there are several places in the game that mention his motives, the most important one is the material in the "Dimmed Crystal Pyramid". Uriel also explains things up on top of the pyramid in the Barrens (again just before you use the Crystal Pyramid to unlock the entrance to the Temple of the Sun). Plus if you hang around to listen to the archons voices in the Temple of the Sun, they also explain his motives. Its also nodded to by Prophet Hector, and several of the prophecies., we also learn a bit through the henchman's comments. There is some motives described by Thork as well.

Sorry I don't remember all the details of his motives. It was in general to become like God basically, unfortunately, his evil and selfishness caused the shattering of the mask, he wasn't trying to "shatter it" (he was never meant to use it). That's why he has his henchman out searching for the mask to bring them back to him so he can use them. Connor just happens to reach the pieces before his henchmen, and they end up fighting over possesion of the pieces. Even the cataclysm caused by the shattering of the mask was unintentional yet prophesied byproduct of Lucreto's jealous attempt to wield the power of the mask.

Quote
6) Maybe. We don't know for sure. I don't see how the "Green Man" could be turned into a Snail though
.
In the same way that a red cap goblin became a leprechaun became a spriggan.

More importantly it has more to do with the fact that King Mudge is described as being elemental ruler of the Swamp, and the one with the help of his wisps at keeping the the place "green" and healthy. So while not exactly in the same form, seems to share similar role, and storyline.

Quote
Well, I won't claim it's 'Roberta's idea.' Perhaps the Leprechaun could look like the Leprechauns of KQI. Maybe he'd actually be a bad guy, in league with Lucreto's side because he was promised the return of the Shield of Daventry to his people--I mean Roberta was going for Tolkien, I'd say that's Tolkien-esque.
Interesting idea, ya, they were villains in KQ1 (although not entirely evil, the reason why you don't go about killing them in that game).

Quote
I still think the 'non' linear design is better. Or maybe some worlds (like the Underworld, The Temple Islands, Paradise Lost) will be non-linear, but others (like the Swamp and Barren Region) will be linear.
Well best I could make out looking at those early maps, is it's mainly just Daventry. The locations in released daventry were scattered around a bit differently though. Like for example the swamp was in the northeast of Castle Daventry, and that's where the unicorn would have been located apparently. Farms seem to be scattered around south of the castle.

Beyond that technically the map doesn't look like it was meant to show elevation, just areas (so the castle may or may not have been on a mountain), but we can see that rivers flow out from the moat (that actually happened in the game, the waterfall).

Underworld probably would have been under the world, LOL, so meant a different load screen. Realm of the gnomes would have been underground, thus another loading area. Since most of the Barrens and Frosty Mountains seem to be based miles away from Daventry, probably would have been in a separate load screen.

Even that note page you sent breaks things up by levels/themes.

You may have noticed that they also maintained the "elemental" realms idea in the released game, they just combined the water to the swamp (since they lost the ocean level). Fire remained in the barrens. The air still remained in the Frozen Reaches. Earth remained in underground realm of the sun. The divine realms were DoD (moon/darkness/death), and Realm of the Sun (sun/light/life)

It seems as if they wanted Daventry to be a bit bigger than it turned out to be.

On a side note the hermit is still in the game, although his purpose was split. Part of his use went to the Wizard of Daventry, the other half went to the hermit/crystal mystic/aged one/prophet hector character/s.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 05, 2010, 06:59:06 AM
Quote
We can never know for sure, however I myself always found the changing of armor to be a bit silly (I know, it was to supplement the RPG part of the game) and keeping one costume would be more in line with past King's Quest games.
Well, actually we do have a few quotes on the development of the armor system. Quite a bit was mentioned in the Interaction magazines IIRC. However, it's always possible although he changes armor, that to the player he would have just "appeared the same".

Although in the released version, though some of the armor is actually tied directly into the plot/puzzles/objectives.

We also know that all the screenshots with the proto-conner, were done on the 3Space level/model editor, and not the game engine itself (which at the time was still being developed out of studio at Dynamix). So represent a non-playable sandbox more or less, that could show model animations (in the model mode), but could also allow levels to be constructed and allow models to be placed into the levels (for appearances). Extremely primitive interface, mainly allowing the "player to "fly" around the map (note the airplane cursor). It also seemed to allow the user to target a model, and "rotate around it" in relation to other background objects.

Quote
think expanding it just a bit might make Lucreto more of an interesting villain. His motives aren't really well developed in the game, all he does is break the Mask and we're never given an explanation in game as to why he does so.
Actually there are several places in the game that mention his motives, the most important one is the material in the "Dimmed Crystal Pyramid". Uriel also explains things up on top of the pyramid in the Barrens (again just before you use the Crystal Pyramid to unlock the entrance to the Temple of the Sun). Plus if you hang around to listen to the archons voices in the Temple of the Sun, they also explain his motives. Its also nodded to by Prophet Hector, and several of the prophecies., we also learn a bit through the henchman's comments. There is some motives described by Thork as well.

Sorry I don't remember all the details of his motives. It was in general to become like God basically, unfortunately, his evil and selfishness caused the shattering of the mask, he wasn't trying to "shatter it" (he was never meant to use it). That's why he has his henchman out searching for the mask to bring them back to him so he can use them. Connor just happens to reach the pieces before his henchmen, and they end up fighting over possesion of the pieces. Even the cataclysm caused by the shattering of the mask was unintentional yet prophesied byproduct of Lucreto's jealous attempt to wield the power of the mask.

Quote
6) Maybe. We don't know for sure. I don't see how the "Green Man" could be turned into a Snail though
.
In the same way that a red cap goblin became a leprechaun became a spriggan.

More importantly it has more to do with the fact that King Mudge is described as being elemental ruler of the Swamp, and the one with the help of his wisps at keeping the the place "green" and healthy. So while not exactly in the same form, seems to share similar role, and storyline.

Quote
Well, I won't claim it's 'Roberta's idea.' Perhaps the Leprechaun could look like the Leprechauns of KQI. Maybe he'd actually be a bad guy, in league with Lucreto's side because he was promised the return of the Shield of Daventry to his people--I mean Roberta was going for Tolkien, I'd say that's Tolkien-esque.
Interesting idea, ya, they were villains in KQ1 (although not entirely evil, the reason why you don't go about killing them in that game).

Quote
I still think the 'non' linear design is better. Or maybe some worlds (like the Underworld, The Temple Islands, Paradise Lost) will be non-linear, but others (like the Swamp and Barren Region) will be linear.
Well best I could make out looking at those early maps, is it's mainly just Daventry. The locations in released daventry were scattered around a bit differently though. Like for example the swamp was in the northeast of Castle Daventry, and that's where the unicorn would have been located apparently. Farms seem to be scattered around south of the castle.

Beyond that technically the map doesn't look like it was meant to show elevation, just areas (so the castle may or may not have been on a mountain), but we can see that rivers flow out from the moat (that actually happened in the game, the waterfall).

Underworld probably would have been under the world, LOL, so meant a different load screen. Realm of the gnomes would have been underground, thus another loading area. Since most of the Barrens and Frosty Mountains seem to be based miles away from Daventry, probably would have been in a separate load screen.

Even that note page you sent breaks things up by levels/themes.

You may have noticed that they also maintained the "elemental" realms idea in the released game, they just combined the water to the swamp (since they lost the ocean level). Fire remained in the barrens. The air still remained in the Frozen Reaches. Earth remained in underground realm of the sun. The divine realms were DoD (moon/darkness/death), and Realm of the Sun (sun/light/life)

It seems as if they wanted Daventry to be a bit bigger than it turned out to be.

On a side note the hermit is still in the game, although his purpose was split. Part of his use went to the Wizard of Daventry, the other half went to the hermit/crystal mystic/aged one/prophet hector character/s.

I'm going to stick to my guns with regard to the ''changing armor'' concept. Every character in every prior KQ game has a set costume--And some, like Graham, retain the same custom "forever" it seems.

I'm thinking of ditching the more 'RPG' elements anyway--the whole ''Levelling Up'' and other things. It seemed a bit tacked when I played the game, like just thrown in to attract RPG fans.

As for his motives, if they did explain it in some areas good, though I'd love for Lucreto to say them early in the game, directly--when he and Connor have their confrontation through the Mirror perhaps. "Ha, thou wouldst think to challenge a God, Mortal?" Just a little added line there makes him even more scary and mysterious, but at the same time sheds a little light--this guy is a God, or at least THINKS he is--Which would then be further expanded upon by the knowledge that Hector gives you.

As for the Leprechauns, well we wouldn't be going on a Leprechaun genocide--Just one Leprechaun who sided with Lucreto in exchange for a promise that his people would get ''their'' Shield back, which was stolen. I would imagine Lucreto's decision--To shatter the Mask--wasn't a sudden decision and probably was months or years in the making, he would need to attract SOME to his cause. Roberta in her notes mentions the sunken pirate ship was going to raid Daventry--Perhaps they were going to raid Daventry at the behest of Lucreto, basically to take whatever treasures they could find back to their Lord?

They might not have been ordinary, random pirates.

I wish someone could get a hold of those maps shown in the Making of Video. Maybe John Stoll or someone has them? They have to be somewhere. If we could get a complete world map, it'd help a lot.

By the way, I notice that there seems to be a lot of Christian mysticism in the subtext of MoE's storyline, and even in some superficial details, like the Church (with the Gregorian-esque chanting). Christian mysticism seems to loom heavy here, whereas true religious overtones weren't really explored in the previous games outside of the Fates.



Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 05, 2010, 07:21:32 AM
Quote
I'm going to stick to my guns with regard to the ''changing armor'' concept. Every character in every prior KQ game has a set costume--And some, like Graham, retain the same custom "forever" it seems.
Not quite, Graham changes clothing in KQ1 (puts on his crown) and KQ2 (wedding tuxedo), somewhat in KQ4 (Graham wears a padded red leather jerkin), and in KQV (the traveling cape). Its most noticeably in KQ2. Albeit these changes only appear mainly in the cutscenes.

Oh, in KQ7, Rosella puts on the black cloak ;) during a certain chapter.

Quote
I'm thinking of ditching the more 'RPG' elements anyway--the whole ''Levelling Up'' and other things. It seemed a bit tacked when I played the game, like just thrown in to attract RPG fans.

Did you read the behind the scenes section on why "combat"? It had more to do with the fact that the levels were so wide open and empty, with nothing to do. They tossed in enemies to give the world more life, and a feel of being inhabited. Again I suggest reading the behind the scenes info about that. It was an idea developed pretty early on. Back when they were working on the 3Space level editor (look at the frost demons).

Another reason why the included it was they wanted it to be more Tolkienesque, where the heros do fight forces of evil physically. They wanted to nod to the swashbuckling sequence in KQ6 where Alexander and Alhazred sword fight each other.

Quote
As for his motives, if they did explain it in some areas good, though I'd love for Lucreto to say them early in the game, directly--when he and Connor have their confrontation through the Mirror perhaps. "Ha, thou wouldst think to challenge a God, Mortal?" Just a little added line there makes him even more scary and mysterious, but at the same time sheds a little light--this guy is a God, or at least THINKS he is--Which would then be further expanded upon by the knowledge that Hector gives you.

Well actually he doesn't start noticing Connor until later, that's why the first Henchman has no idea who he is, but as the game progresses they begin to know of him, and tell you what Lucreto thinks of him. At the time he first sees Lucreto in the Mirror, Lucreto doesn't really have any clue who he is, nor does he know if he's a threat. If I remember that mirro scene correctly, its actually just showing him sending his henchman out to find the mask pieces. I don't remember if he even acknowledged Connor in the mirror or not.

Quote
As for the Leprechauns, well we wouldn't be going on a Leprechaun genocide--Just one Leprechaun who sided with Lucreto in exchange for a promise that his people would get ''their'' Shield back, which was stolen. I would imagine Lucreto's decision--To shatter the Mask--wasn't a sudden decision and probably was months or years in the making, he would need to attract SOME to his cause. Roberta in her notes mentions the sunken pirate ship was going to raid Daventry--Perhaps they were going to raid Daventry at the behest of Lucreto, basically to take whatever treasures they could find back to their Lord?

I'm confused... so you want the Lucreto to "intentionally shatter the mask"? Rather than just trying to steal it to use for himself? As I was trying to explain, in the released game, he didn't even want to shatter the mask, that was an accident (caused by the fact he wasn't meant to wield it). It's the whole reason why he sent out his henchman to find and gather the pieces again.

Quote
They might not have been ordinary, random pirates

Point of note, the notes don't say directly that they are pirates. But I can see where you assume that, they have a "treasure map", they might have a shovel, and there is a treasure that hte map leads to. The notes do describe them as being 'raiders' though. Which is technically another name for pirates in some cases.  But could also describe vikings, LOL.

Quote
I wish someone could get a hold of those maps shown in the Making of Video. Maybe John Stoll or someone has them? They have to be somewhere. If we could get a complete world map, it'd help a lot.
Don't turn your eye away from the released map, actually you'll notice that it seems to show the sea side level that was cut.(notice the ships on the water)


Quote
By the way, I notice that there seems to be a lot of Christian mysticism in the subtext of MoE's storyline, and even in some superficial details, like the Church (with the Gregorian-esque chanting). Christian mysticism seems to loom heavy here, whereas true religious overtones weren't really explored in the previous games outside of the Fates.

Don't forget the Monastery in KQ2, which made a huge deal about crosses, and praying, and brothers who protect travelers, and bell that calls brothers to mass. The avoiding harming a person of the cloth.

There are also one or two religious comments on the grave stones in KQ4, IIRC, with a reference to God iirc.

The priests in KQ VIII seem to be based off an eastern orthodox church, based on the priest's robes.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 05, 2010, 07:32:48 AM
Quote
I'm going to stick to my guns with regard to the ''changing armor'' concept. Every character in every prior KQ game has a set costume--And some, like Graham, retain the same custom "forever" it seems.
Not quite, Graham changes clothing in KQ1 (puts on his crown) and KQ2 (wedding tuxedo), somewhat in KQ4, and in KQV (the traveling cape). Its most noticeably in KQ2. Albeit these changes only appear mainly in the cutscenes.

Oh, in KQ7, Rosella puts on the black cloak ;) during a certain chapter.

Quote
I'm thinking of ditching the more 'RPG' elements anyway--the whole ''Levelling Up'' and other things. It seemed a bit tacked when I played the game, like just thrown in to attract RPG fans.

Did you read the behind the scenes section on why "combat"? It had more to do with the fact that the levels were so wide open and empty, with nothing to do. They tossed in enemies to give the world more life, and a feel of being inhabited. Again I suggest reading the behind the scenes info about that. It was an idea developed pretty early on. Back when they were working on the 3Space level editor (look at the frost demons).

Quote
As for his motives, if they did explain it in some areas good, though I'd love for Lucreto to say them early in the game, directly--when he and Connor have their confrontation through the Mirror perhaps. "Ha, thou wouldst think to challenge a God, Mortal?" Just a little added line there makes him even more scary and mysterious, but at the same time sheds a little light--this guy is a God, or at least THINKS he is--Which would then be further expanded upon by the knowledge that Hector gives you.

Well actually he doesn't start noticing Connor until later, that's why the first Henchman has no idea who he is, but as the game progresses they begin to know of him, and tell you what Lucreto thinks of him. At the time he first sees Lucreto in the Mirror, Lucreto doesn't really have any clue who he is, nor does he know if he's a threat. If I remember that mirro scene correctly, its actually just showing him sending his henchman out to find the mask pieces. I don't remember if he even acknowledged Connor in the mirror or not.

Quote
As for the Leprechauns, well we wouldn't be going on a Leprechaun genocide--Just one Leprechaun who sided with Lucreto in exchange for a promise that his people would get ''their'' Shield back, which was stolen. I would imagine Lucreto's decision--To shatter the Mask--wasn't a sudden decision and probably was months or years in the making, he would need to attract SOME to his cause. Roberta in her notes mentions the sunken pirate ship was going to raid Daventry--Perhaps they were going to raid Daventry at the behest of Lucreto, basically to take whatever treasures they could find back to their Lord?

I'm confused... so you want the Lucreto to "intentionally shatter the mask"? Rather than just trying to steal it to use for himself? As I was trying to explain, in the original story, he didn't even want to shatter the mask, that was an accident (caused by the fact he wasn't meant to wield it). It's the whole reason why he sent out his henchman to find and gather the pieces again.

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They might not have been ordinary, random pirates

Point of note, the notes don't say directly that they are pirates. But I can see where you assume that, they have a "treasure map", they might have a shovel, and there is a treasure that hte map leads to. The notes do describe them as being 'raiders' though. Which is technically another name for pirates in some cases.  But could also describe vikings, LOL.

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I wish someone could get a hold of those maps shown in the Making of Video. Maybe John Stoll or someone has them? They have to be somewhere. If we could get a complete world map, it'd help a lot.
Don't turn your eye away from the released map, actually you'll notice that it seems to show the sea side level that was cut.(notice the ships on the water)


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By the way, I notice that there seems to be a lot of Christian mysticism in the subtext of MoE's storyline, and even in some superficial details, like the Church (with the Gregorian-esque chanting). Christian mysticism seems to loom heavy here, whereas true religious overtones weren't really explored in the previous games outside of the Fates.

Don't forget the Monastery in KQ2, which made a huge deal about crosses, and praying, and brothers who protect travelers, and bell that calls brothers to mass. The avoiding harming a person of the cloth.

There are also one or two religious comments on the grave stones in KQ4, IIRC, with a reference to God iirc.

The priests in KQ VIII seem to be based off an eastern orthodox church, based on the priest's robes.

True, but I mean those aren't really MAJOR clothes changes or a constant changing back and forth of clothes like in MoE.

I have no problem with the combat elements. Just the RPG elemts--the Levelling Up, Changing of Armor. I actually like the action elements.

And in the Mirror scene (in Daventry's Castle) he threatens and challenges Connor, calling him a "stripling" and that he should essentially run back to his mother. So I'd say he's aware that Connor is a challenge to him. He says, "You think you can foil me?"

Excuse me then--To take the Mask. Either way, the point is--I think his overall plot was to be God, and he also had to have allies (the shipwrecked "Raiders", the Leprechaun, the Henchmen, the Demons you enter in the Realm of the Sun) to achieve this goal. I'm not sure if the Swamp Witch would've been involved but she could've been--the Unicorn says the Witch stole the Horn right around the exact time the Cataclysm takes place if I recall correctly. You're right--the breaking of the Mask wasn't intended, that's why he has the Henchmen try to retrieve each piece. The effects of the Mask breaking could've actually been devastating to his overall plan--The Raiders who were supposed to attack Daventry somehow sunk during the Cataclysm, for example.

True--But the Christian sentiment wasn't too OVERT in the games, whereas the mythology of this game (with the Alchemy and other elements) being heavily Christian Medieval period stuff.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 05, 2010, 07:33:53 AM
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Keep the '96 graphics with Daventry as a brighter place (live trees,

Point of note, actually Daventry is one of the most "live" places in the game already as far as trees, plants, etc (notice the hedges and pine trees, not so much the decidious trees), maybe more so than the swamp, and Paradise Lost (which by the way would have been a dark world according to the notes, not a place of flowers and stone henge).
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 05, 2010, 07:35:54 AM
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Keep the '96 graphics with Daventry as a brighter place (live trees,

Point of note, actually Daventry is one of the most "live" places in the game already as far as trees, plants, etc, maybe more so than the swamp, and Paradise Lost (which by the way would have been a dark world according to the notes, not a place of flowers and stone henge).

Right. But I'd like to keep Daventry as the sole, remaining source of light in the midst of darkness, with "Paradise Lost" perhaps as an example of what the rest of the world will become if Lucreto wins.

And then there's Roberta's mention of the ''Dark Abyss.'' I don't recall any Dark Abyss featured in the game, but perhaps it could be in Paradise Lost--A dark Abyss, perhaps filled with images of what the world will be if Lucreto wins. Perhaps Spirits of some kind, maybe Elemental Spirits (like in KQ7) could talk to Connor there and hammer home the importance of his Quest, showing how the world will be covered in darkness and devoid of all beauty, like Paradise Lost, if Lucreto wins the day.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 05, 2010, 07:39:36 AM
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And in the Mirror scene (in Daventry's Castle) he threatens and challenges Connor, calling him a "stripling" and that he should essentially run back to his mother. So I'd say he's aware that Connor is a challenge to him. He says, "You think you can foil me?"

Hmm, that's right by then I think you even have the first piece of the mask. So he's starting to get a sense of who this person might be.

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Christian sentiment wasn't too OVERT in the games, whereas the mythology of this game (with the Alchemy and other elements) being heavily Christian Medieval period stuff.
Well Christian sentiment is in KQ2, but its limited the same level as in Bram Stoker's Dracula really.

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And then there's Roberta's mention of the ''Dark Abyss.'' I don't recall any Dark Abyss featured in the game, but perhaps it could be in Paradise Lost--A dark Abyss, perhaps filled with images of what the world will be if Lucreto wins. Perhaps Spirits of some kind, maybe Elemental Spirits (like in KQ7) could talk to Connor there and hammer home the importance of his Quest, showing how the world will be covered in darkness and devoid of all beauty, like Paradise Lost, if Lucreto wins the day.

The dark abyss or the abyss, is another poetic description for the Underworld. I think its actually mentioned in game on one of those riddles and poems you can read on pillars in the Dimension of Death.

Though technically with an underwater level you could play with the idea of an underwater dark abyss.

Come to think of it, the Paradise in Paradise Lost is supposed to be the Garden of Eden. The Paradise that Adam and Eve lost. I now understand why they chose to make it a sunlit world in the final release. It makes more sense that way from religious Milton reference sense. It's literally supposed to be Eden, and contains the entrance to Heaven. Adam and Eve lost Eden, and lost their direct connection to Heaven.

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I have no problem with the combat elements. Just the RPG elemts--the Levelling Up, Changing of Armor. I actually like the action elements.
Technically, the moment you start developing a robust fighting system, and place into the game, there is an incentive to make the game have more challenge as you get further into the game. Generally this is done through either "leveling system" (Quest for Glory did this), or making enemies more difficult, and balancing things through armor upgrades, or the combination of both (Quest for Glory V did this).

Just having enemies that don't get more difficult, and having no way to make yourself stronger against increasing powerful enemies just makes the game tedius, overly repetitive, and pointless. If I was just going to be fighting a bunch of random enemies that are easy to kill it would take alot of the fun away. The RPG aspects are part of what makes the game fun, I have a reason to "make myself stronger", or discover new weapons and armor (which I actually find fun).

It's not so bad with FPS where you are shooting from a distance, but its something you'd notice when getting into the melee range. The Jedi Knight games were improved because they actually added RPG elements (to improve your close up sword fighting/force moves). Unlocking new skills, becoming stronger, a better fighter, more defensive, better weapons, is what makes those games so much fun.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 05, 2010, 01:19:32 PM
Quote
And in the Mirror scene (in Daventry's Castle) he threatens and challenges Connor, calling him a "stripling" and that he should essentially run back to his mother. So I'd say he's aware that Connor is a challenge to him. He says, "You think you can foil me?"

Hmm, that's right by then I think you even have the first piece of the mask. So he's starting to get a sense of who this person might be.

Quote
Christian sentiment wasn't too OVERT in the games, whereas the mythology of this game (with the Alchemy and other elements) being heavily Christian Medieval period stuff.
Well Christian sentiment is in KQ2, but its limited the same level as in Bram Stoker's Dracula really.

Quote
And then there's Roberta's mention of the ''Dark Abyss.'' I don't recall any Dark Abyss featured in the game, but perhaps it could be in Paradise Lost--A dark Abyss, perhaps filled with images of what the world will be if Lucreto wins. Perhaps Spirits of some kind, maybe Elemental Spirits (like in KQ7) could talk to Connor there and hammer home the importance of his Quest, showing how the world will be covered in darkness and devoid of all beauty, like Paradise Lost, if Lucreto wins the day.

The dark abyss or the abyss, is another poetic description for the Underworld. I think its actually mentioned in game on one of those riddles and poems you can read on pillars in the Dimension of Death.

Though technically with an underwater level you could play with the idea of an underwater dark abyss.

Come to think of it, the Paradise in Paradise Lost is supposed to be the Garden of Eden. The Paradise that Adam and Eve lost. I now understand why they chose to make it a sunlit world in the final release. It makes more sense that way from religious Milton reference sense. It's literally supposed to be Eden, and contains the entrance to Heaven. Adam and Eve lost Eden, and lost their direct connection to Heaven.

Quote
I have no problem with the combat elements. Just the RPG elemts--the Levelling Up, Changing of Armor. I actually like the action elements.
Technically, the moment you start developing a robust fighting system, and place into the game, there is an incentive to make the game have more challenge as you get further into the game. Generally this is done through either "leveling system" (Quest for Glory did this), or making enemies more difficult, and balancing things through armor upgrades, or the combination of both (Quest for Glory V did this).

Just having enemies that don't get more difficult, and having no way to make yourself stronger against increasing powerful enemies just makes the game tedius, overly repetitive, and pointless. If I was just going to be fighting a bunch of random enemies that are easy to kill it would take alot of the fun away. The RPG aspects are part of what makes the game fun, I have a reason to "make myself stronger", or discover new weapons and armor (which I actually find fun).

It's not so bad with FPS where you are shooting from a distance, but its something you'd notice when getting into the melee range. The Jedi Knight games were improved because they actually added RPG elements (to improve your close up sword fighting/force moves). Unlocking new skills, becoming stronger, a better fighter, more defensive, better weapons, is what makes those games so much fun.

How could he get a sense of who has the Mask? Connor KILLS Lucreto's henchman, so it's not like he can report back to him.

Exactly. Here the Medieval Christian mysticism is very heavy--More heavy I would say than any religious overtone is in any of the other games. The Fates are mentioned once, casually in KQ6, and than in KQ7, we visit them but it's all part of an already cartoonish, aimed at children adventure. It's like, to paraphrase Roberta, putting Walt Disney against JRR Tolkien. There's a lot of Medieval, Christian influences on MoE. Astrology and Alchemy were very much tied to Christianity in the Middle Ages, especially in the Early to High Middle Ages.

Perhaps, but it's never really explored further (Paradise Lost). It just seems kind of..tacked on. It could use further exploration/development.

And you're right. The RPG elements would probably have to stay in.

So does anyone want to help me?
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 05, 2010, 02:07:18 PM
The henchmen are magical homunculi originating out of Lucreto's cauldron/scrying pool thing. Perhaps he can see through their eyes, or when they 'die' their magic returns to whene it originated.

I'd agree the game isn't entirely clear on that subject but it seems further you get into the game somehow Lucreto knows of everything you have been doing throughout the game.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 05, 2010, 03:45:33 PM
The henchmen are magical homunculi originating out of Lucreto's cauldron/scrying pool thing. Perhaps he can see through their eyes, or when they 'die' their magic returns to whene it originated.

I'd agree the game isn't entirely clear on that subject but it seems further you get into the game somehow Lucreto knows of everything you have been doing throughout the game.

I personally think if he was developed further, Lucreto could be perhaps the BEST KQ villain. He's unlike anything any of the protagonists have faced before--He's literally an Angel or divine being, much higher I imagine in power than witches or Genies or Ghosts.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 05, 2010, 03:59:21 PM
Albeit, Malicia was a fallen goddess more or less... In as much as the Fairy Nobles of Etheria and Eldritch are essentially the gods of their world (at least Titania's family; with such beings as Fates, Weaver of Dreams, even Oberon is pretty powerful individual Fairy Noble as well). Lolotte was of the same race, but I don't think she was anywhere near the power of the ruling nobles.

But Malicia isn't all that interesting as a villain. She never came accross as a frightening villain.

Lucreto definitely seemed more evil (more interesting character in the whole "Good vs. Evil" religious level of villainy). Shame though that final battle didn't have the same kind of oomph as say Mordack vs. Graham, or the swashbuckling at the end of KQ6 (although KQ6 battle was an even simpler puzzle). It wasn't bad fight, and probably would have been fine, had the ending not been anti-climactic. The lack of a well developed ending just destroys the mood.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: crayauchtin on August 06, 2010, 05:05:59 PM
Malicia had potential to be one of the more evil, though not necessarily more terrifying, villains of the series up to that point. I'm certain she was toned down for the family-friendly Disney-esque style of the game. Had they kept the tone of KQ6 or KQ4 we'd all be singing a different tune about her.
That said, I understand why they toned her down and it still managed to work.

Lucreto, on the other hand, has potential to be even worse than she ever could have been and I would really like to see that explored in a MoE remake.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 06, 2010, 05:16:48 PM
It's pretty bad that Lolotte actually comes of seeming more evil and sinister than Malicia, :p...

Not to mention, that she feels more like a Lolotte retread... since her story essentially mirrors Lolotte.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 06, 2010, 05:27:06 PM
It's pretty bad that Lolotte actually comes of seeming more evil and sinister than Malicia, :p...

Not to mention, that she feels more like a Lolotte retread... since her story essentially mirrors Lolotte.

Also, Malicia didn't have a very intimidating voice or image. Mordack had a typical evil bad guy voice and had an awesome, dark image, Abdul had a very sneaky sounding voice and an image to match it.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 06, 2010, 05:34:18 PM
Also, if the villain has a dog or a cat, especially one named "cuddles" they come across as a "Mr. Claw", "Blofeld", "Dr. Evil" like character. Those are so easy to spoof :p....

The Boogeyman was creepier than her.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 07, 2010, 01:25:24 PM
Does anyone want to help me try to remake MoE?
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: kindofdoon on August 07, 2010, 04:58:46 PM
I lack the programming skill and time, sorry. What you're trying to do is, in my opinion, overly ambitious. Perhaps you should start off with something more manageable. Just my two cents, take it or leave it.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 07, 2010, 07:39:52 PM
I lack the programming skill and time, sorry. What you're trying to do is, in my opinion, overly ambitious. Perhaps you should start off with something more manageable. Just my two cents, take it or leave it.

Why is it overly ambitious?
I'm working with a game that in the scheme of things isn't too large and would be using nearly 14 year old graphics--So it's not like I'm going for anything state of the art. I'll basically be taking what is known about the early stages of the game and filling in the blanks.
People make 3D fan games all the time. Doom & Quake WADs for example.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 08, 2010, 12:10:35 AM
Well no offense, but Doom wads are in a completely different league. You're talking technology that's almost twice as old as MOE, its more or less 3 years older than Super Mario 64 (which was an inspiration for MOE). In technology terms that's something like 10 years of technological advancement compared to other industries. Computer technology has been developing at a much faster rate than most industries

Also a big difference is Doom wad creators generally had level editors to work with, have had experience with the level editors for years (id Software actually included a level editor with the commericial version of the game), and have been developing ways to tweak the game, outside of its original scope, I.E. 3rd person style gameplay (although its more or less still limited by certain limitations inherit to the engine's level structure). Have you made a doom wad or any other game before?

Doom is also very simple, since its based on 2-d sprites, basically card-board cutouts, anyone could scan in any artwork basicall. Obviously the same works for textures in the game. So one person developers could do a wad or create a mod on there own.

Once you deal with 3-d models like Quake era, in general if it means changing all the textures in the game, and create new models its group based effort (or very minor modifications by individuals). ...or its just a new level using the game's original assets (using id's level editor).

Neither of these engines are going to fit the features needed for MOE exactly. For one thing I think quake's terrain is still consists of pretty much verticle walls, and claustrophobic passages, although it did have steps, it didn't really allow for hilly terrain. Most surfaces lead to sheer dropoffs, with no curved edges. Basically castle walls, and strange industrial complexes.

At least what we can see from MOE screenshots they were trying for distant mountains that while steep weren't necessarily completely verticle, and it did allow for more variation in wide open space, variable grading to the hills rounder edges near cliffs.

Now come to think of it, didn't red baron 2 (3Space engine) come with a level editor? If you really want to mimic the original you could try to work from scratch and tweak the 3Space engine to your needs ;). But again that would probably take experience on your part.

Another issue you should probably consider, is sending a letter out to Activision asking for permission. If you can get the permission early on, you can avoid C&D issues later on.

Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: kindofdoon on August 08, 2010, 11:10:42 AM
DMD, what engine do you have in mind for your remake?
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 08, 2010, 01:39:15 PM
Like they say, hindsight is 20/20, there is always a bias in hindsight :p...
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 08, 2010, 03:27:44 PM
All I need is a Co-Writer right now who can Co-Write the script with me. The programming stuff can come much later.

(Posted on: August 08, 2010, 03:52:48 PM)


Well no offense, but Doom wads are in a completely different league. You're talking technology that's almost twice as old as MOE, its more or less 3 years older than Super Mario 64 (which was an inspiration for MOE). In technology terms that's something like 10 years of technological advancement compared to other industries. Computer technology has been developing at a much faster rate than most industries

Also a big difference is Doom wad creators generally had level editors to work with, have had experience with the level editors for years (id Software actually included a level editor with the commericial version of the game), and have been developing ways to tweak the game, outside of its original scope, I.E. 3rd person style gameplay (although its more or less still limited by certain limitations inherit to the engine's level structure). Have you made a doom wad or any other game before?

Doom is also very simple, since its based on 2-d sprites, basically card-board cutouts, anyone could scan in any artwork basicall. Obviously the same works for textures in the game. So one person developers could do a wad or create a mod on there own.

Once you deal with 3-d models like Quake era, in general if it means changing all the textures in the game, and create new models its group based effort (or very minor modifications by individuals). ...or its just a new level using the game's original assets (using id's level editor).

Neither of these engines are going to fit the features needed for MOE exactly. For one thing I think quake's terrain is still consists of pretty much verticle walls, and claustrophobic passages, although it did have steps, it didn't really allow for hilly terrain. Most surfaces lead to sheer dropoffs, with no curved edges. Basically castle walls, and strange industrial complexes.

At least what we can see from MOE screenshots they were trying for distant mountains that while steep weren't necessarily completely verticle, and it did allow for more variation in wide open space, variable grading to the hills rounder edges near cliffs.

Now come to think of it, didn't red baron 2 (3Space engine) come with a level editor? If you really want to mimic the original you could try to work from scratch and tweak the 3Space engine to your needs ;). But again that would probably take experience on your part.

Another issue you should probably consider, is sending a letter out to Activision asking for permission. If you can get the permission early on, you can avoid C&D issues later on.



What if I went the route described in the very early stages of the game (1st person with only 3rd person persectives when conversing or battles, or ''story point'' areas)? Could that make things easier?
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 08, 2010, 03:32:16 PM
How would it be any different than the ability to switch in first person and 3rd person that's already in the game? The only difference you'd be locking out the third person viewpoint for most of the game :p...

The released game has portions that automatically switch to 3rd person if you are in 1st person mode, for cutscenes and the like.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 08, 2010, 03:37:12 PM
How would it be any different than the ability to switch in first person and 3rd person that's already in the game? The only difference you'd be locking out the third person viewpoint for most of the game :p...

The released game has portions that automatically switch to 3rd person if you are in 1st person mode, for cutscenes and the like.

It would be different in that you wouldn't be allowed to toggle at will from 1st to 3rd or vice versa as you do in the release version. You'd only see through Connor's eyes, except for conversations and the like. The key difference here being in MoE you were able to toggle at will through the two modes.

This would make MoE a primarily 1st person game, whereas the released version is both. 
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 08, 2010, 04:15:45 PM
That really wouldn't have much of an effect on difficulty programming in the engine (as long as you are working with an engine that can mimic 1996 engine technology), really.

You'd probably have people complaining that it didn't feel like a King's Quest game... King's Quest isn't Myst 3-D, Azrael's Tear or a Metroid Prime. Some people prefer having Third Person view points (like the earlier KQ).

I think Sierra had a valid reason for giving the player the option of how they want to play the game, giving them the best of both worlds. Removing that feature wouldn't really be an "improvement".
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 08, 2010, 04:19:10 PM
That really wouldn't have much of an effect on difficulty programming in the engine (as long as you are working with an engine that can mimic 1996 engine technology), really.

You'd probably have people complaining that it didn't feel like a King's Quest game... King's Quest isn't Myst 3-D, Azrael's Tear or a Metroid Prime. Some people prefer having Third Person view points (like the earlier KQ).

True, but you'll always have people who complain no matter what you do.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 08, 2010, 04:20:54 PM
It still wouldn't be an "improvement" to the game. You need to think about features that are true improvements, not downgrades.

You seriously need to think ideas that "improve", not ideas that are inferior.

Now something that might be interesting if you added in a few first-person cinematic scenes where it zooms into Connor's POV, and the camera takes over, and has connor look at certain details. Like for example maybe a survival horror type cutscene, where he's being stalked. It puts you into his perspective to make it more personal. Like he hears a sound, starts looking left, then right, then behind him, before something jumps at him from the shadows. Before giving the player control to switch back into 3rd or remain in first person.

That's a good use of first person for cinematic affect. Plus you can also use mandatory 3rd person for cinematic effect as well.(like in the original version).

You could also have mandatory first person viewpoints where the game takes over and has Connor look at something important, and then comments on it. Like an internal hint system of a sort. Not enough to give away a puzzle or important element, but would nudge a player in the right direction. Like first instance, the start of the game. Many players walk past Dante, not even seeing him on the fence. Well what if the first thing the game does, is zoom into Connor's point of view, automatically turns him to the fence, and then connor says, "What's this?". To which point you get control again. Then can click on the bird, then as the bird starts to fly away, it could zoom back into Connor POV, and have him say, "Wither does he fly?" Then a zoom in the bird flying towards the direction of the lake. So the player knows it hast to follow the bird, and has a better idea which direction the bird flies.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: kindofdoon on August 08, 2010, 06:59:41 PM
It still wouldn't be an "improvement" to the game. You need to think about features that are true improvements, not downgrades.

I was thinking the same thing, Baggins.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 08, 2010, 07:59:21 PM
I'd say adding in  cut material, including an entire exploration of Castle Daventry and the Underwater World, and other elements, including a downgrade of the action elements from enemies all around to more exploration and physical puzzles, an upgrade.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: kindofdoon on August 08, 2010, 08:21:12 PM
I believe what Baggins meant by "downgrade" was forcing the player into either 1st or 3rd person, whereas the original let the player choose.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 08, 2010, 08:28:18 PM
I believe what Baggins meant by "downgrade" was forcing the player into either 1st or 3rd person, whereas the original let the player choose.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes on that, but it might offer something new. I'd imagine even now allowing a player to choose between first and third person at will would be a lot of work.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: kindofdoon on August 09, 2010, 07:31:30 AM
Hence "overly ambitious".
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 09, 2010, 07:53:40 AM
No offense, but having the abililty to switch between first and 3rd person, or lack there of isn't going to make the game "easier" or "more difficult" to make.

Most engines worth there weight have that option. If you are programming sequences that are in first person and sequences in 3rd person, you have already put that feature into the game (you just took control of it instead of the player).

So what would be the point removing the toggle? It would just be a downgrade, but wouldn't add anything new... Infact it would be a regression...
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 09, 2010, 11:33:04 PM
Hence "overly ambitious".

It'll be a project that I'll get done as soon as I get people to help. It's a dream project for me, and I want to see it done.

(Posted on: August 09, 2010, 01:45:14 PM)


What about a VGA MoE remake, with KQ5-6 style graphics?
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: kindofdoon on August 10, 2010, 05:48:48 AM
Combat would be tricky in a KQV VGA style game. Do you have any ideas for how that would work?

Also, what engine would you use?
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 10, 2010, 05:53:38 AM
Well, doing it KQV/6 style would be interesting from a novelty and originality standpoint. Plus you could essentially make it your own game. I remember someone else that wanted to do that, but it never went anywhere.

If you were going to go that route though, I'd suggest trying to make it a Quest for Glory type interface. Maybe include random encounters, and a more advanced leveling system, mimicing QFG. Like you can't just climb into a place, unless you build up enough climbing skill for example.

You could also maybe add "class choices" that could open up alternate puzzle solutions, heh heh, ;).

However, you'd be creating a game that's kind of like possibly having seven QFG1/4 type worlds in one game. You'd need a at least 16-20 screens for each world's outdoor areas. So roughly 112-140 screens to explore around. That's not counting indoor areas. You could reduce that number a bit by using overworld map like in QFG3/5, as well as cloning and reusing random trees/rocks to create screens like in QFG.

Absolutely huge for a KQ game let alone adventure games in general.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: snabbott on August 10, 2010, 08:44:44 AM
No offense, but having the abililty to switch between first and 3rd person, or lack there of isn't going to make the game "easier" or "more difficult" to make.
Not necessarily... If you control the camer angles, then you can take "shortcuts" by not finishing all of the 3D art - I've seen cases where this was done in TSL.

Well, doing it KQV/6 style would be interesting from a novelty and originality standpoint. Plus you could essentially make it your own game. I remember someone else that wanted to do that, but it never went anywhere.

atec123 was planning something like this. The last I heard, he still wanted to do it, but he wasn't expecting to have the time for quite a while.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 10, 2010, 09:25:33 AM
Snabbot the point was that we are talking about a first person action game with complete control and exploration (what Roberta described as a cross between Doom and Super Mario 64). When you already have that kind of control, there is no point in limiting the camera angles. Its very difficult to limit camera angles in a first person game.

Now you could have a "first person" myst type game with locked camera angles, but that would pretty much destroy the whole point of what Roberta was going for in MOE.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: snabbott on August 10, 2010, 11:20:12 AM
Ah - I missed something. I was thinking third-person only. I personally don't like first-person - I have trouble controlling the camera to see everything. I played MoE exclusively in 3rd person view.

(Posted on: August 10, 2010, 10:46:33 AM)


Where is atec, anyway? ???
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on August 10, 2010, 11:37:30 AM
Ya, I know what your saying. I think that's why she mentioned super mario 64 to point out that it would also allow for 3rd person gameplay, for those who don't enjoy FPS mode.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 10, 2010, 11:42:53 AM
Combat would be tricky in a KQV VGA style game. Do you have any ideas for how that would work?

Also, what engine would you use?

Why would it have to include combat? Why couldn't it be exploration with just bosses--defeated in cinematic sword fights ala KQ6 or something else.

Also, for a VGA game the engine would be AGS.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: kindofdoon on August 10, 2010, 01:30:40 PM
I'm only asking about combat because MoE featured combat.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: waltzdancing on August 10, 2010, 01:49:27 PM
Ah - I missed something. I was thinking third-person only. I personally don't like first-person - I have trouble controlling the camera to see everything. I played MoE exclusively in 3rd person view.

(Posted on: August 10, 2010, 10:46:33 AM)


Where is atec, anyway? ???

That's an interesting question. I'm going to have to email him and see if he is okay. Those boys were part of my family. Love ya guys
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Jackly on August 10, 2010, 02:08:18 PM
What about a VGA MoE remake, with KQ5-6 style graphics?

That's a fantastic idea!  :D
Where do I have to sign to join your project?  ???
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: snabbott on August 10, 2010, 04:18:48 PM
Where is atec, anyway? ???
That's an interesting question. I'm going to have to email him and see if he is okay. Those boys were part of my family. Love ya guys
hey!  look who's back!

oh wait.... there he goes again.

oh well.

I'm still alive in case you were wondering, but I haven't played the game.  I need a new computer.

please hold.  I will be back some day.
Is it someday yet?  :-\ ???
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: waltzdancing on August 10, 2010, 09:46:52 PM
I guess not.  :(
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Mysteria on August 11, 2010, 04:38:46 PM
I wouldn't even mind seeing MoE remade 2-d. I actually hated moving Conner around because of all the early 3-d glitches ect..

I would not mind even leaving Mask the way it was...if it was remade in 2-d. It was such the hassle to move Conner around and then you'd get attacked by something you couldn't even bring Conner to see yet! Ugh..it annoyed me.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 15, 2010, 07:37:35 PM
What about KQ: Mask of Eternity: The Text Adventure?
With all of the Olde English language and epicness, it could make for a great interactive novel.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: wilco64256 on August 15, 2010, 08:10:20 PM
I've actually played some really great text-based MMO's, so that could be good.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on September 06, 2010, 07:31:21 AM
Does anyone want to try to help me get this off the ground>?
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: atec123 on September 06, 2010, 05:21:52 PM
Does anyone want to try to help me get this off the ground>?
a text version?  idk.  could be very interesting.  not to mention easier.

TBH  2d still sounds the most appealing to me.  AGS is great, especially 2.72 for the easy interface and linux compatibility/portabillity.

I kinda started the project, but that one didn't count.  if I had help, I would love to start this up again.  I know we were kinda trying to.

BTW, I'm back.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on September 06, 2010, 06:13:54 PM
Does anyone want to try to help me get this off the ground>?
a text version?  idk.  could be very interesting.  not to mention easier.

TBH  2d still sounds the most appealing to me.  AGS is great, especially 2.72 for the easy interface and linux compatibility/portabillity.

I kinda started the project, but that one didn't count.  if I had help, I would love to start this up again.  I know we were kinda trying to.

BTW, I'm back.

Do you still have anything from the AGS version?
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: atec123 on September 06, 2010, 06:30:12 PM
Does anyone want to try to help me get this off the ground>?
a text version?  idk.  could be very interesting.  not to mention easier.

TBH  2d still sounds the most appealing to me.  AGS is great, especially 2.72 for the easy interface and linux compatibility/portabillity.

I kinda started the project, but that one didn't count.  if I had help, I would love to start this up again.  I know we were kinda trying to.

BTW, I'm back.

Do you still have anything from the AGS version?
simple answer: nope.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Fierce Deity on September 06, 2010, 07:34:57 PM
I think an AGS version of MoE would be interesting. I'm not savvy in video game development, but I support the idea nonetheless. At least (seeing as the game was mostly action-based), you are open to an original, creative adventure (aside from picking up the mask pieces). 
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on September 06, 2010, 08:32:30 PM
I think an AGS version of MoE would be interesting. I'm not savvy in video game development, but I support the idea nonetheless. At least (seeing as the game was mostly action-based), you are open to an original, creative adventure (aside from picking up the mask pieces). 

I'm pretty much open to anything as far as an KQ8 is concerned. I'd like it to be in retro 3D ideally, but still.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: kindofdoon on September 06, 2010, 08:36:34 PM
I think an AGS version of MoE would be interesting. I'm not savvy in video game development, but I support the idea nonetheless. At least (seeing as the game was mostly action-based), you are open to an original, creative adventure (aside from picking up the mask pieces). 

I'm pretty much open to anything as far as an KQ8 is concerned. I'd like it to be in retro 3D ideally, but still.

I thought the point of your remake was to make MoE fit in with the other KQ games in terms of graphical style. For what reasons do you wish to remake MoE in "retro 3D"?
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on September 06, 2010, 08:40:22 PM
I think an AGS version of MoE would be interesting. I'm not savvy in video game development, but I support the idea nonetheless. At least (seeing as the game was mostly action-based), you are open to an original, creative adventure (aside from picking up the mask pieces). 

I'm pretty much open to anything as far as an KQ8 is concerned. I'd like it to be in retro 3D ideally, but still.

I thought the point of your remake was to make MoE fit in with the other KQ games in terms of graphical style. For what reasons do you wish to remake MoE in "retro 3D"?

No, no if you read the OP it was to make it into a retro 3D style similar to the original graphics of the game, but Baggins and I got into a bit of a debate and yeah I had caved, but still...I'm pretty set in my desire for it to be retro 3D, to emulate the style seen in the early screenshots. Sort of a 'de-make', but it would be adding in elements that were taken out like the second Daventry town and the Underwater Kingdom with the ship of the would-be raiders of Daventry, along with the Alchemist being ''un-stoned'' and having to get amethyst, plus the original idea of having Connor be a statue of a Knight turned to life by the breaking of the Mask.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: kindofdoon on September 06, 2010, 08:48:32 PM
I see. So you would keep the original graphical style and gameplay but modify the story, right?
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on September 06, 2010, 08:56:08 PM
I see. So you would keep the original graphical style and gameplay but modify the story, right?

Pretty much. Expand it. Add in perhaps a better, more conclusive ending.
And the graphics would be more like this:
(http://www.games-guide.de/x_bilder/pc_games/adventure/kings_quest8.jpg)

Instead of:
(http://pcmedia.ign.com/media/previews/image/kingsquest8_9_640w.jpg)
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 07, 2010, 03:07:55 AM
Although those 2-d tree sprites are absolutely horrid... :p
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Fierce Deity on September 07, 2010, 03:36:40 AM
Although those 2-d tree sprites are absolutely horrid... :p

Really? I think they're kind of quaint.  ;)

Honestly though, I liked the scenic view in the actual Mask of Eternity. Might have just been me, but it gave me that dark and isolated feeling. I think the first screenshot is too bright and spacious. The early stages of MoE aren't what I'd call ideal for MoE's story. I'd say, do something completely original. Make a new Connor, a new Daventry, and a new story (though still somewhat related to the restoration of the Mask).   
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: crayauchtin on September 08, 2010, 07:03:34 PM
All I ask if that the fires in the remake be less ridiculous looking. I mean, seriously, I know that those were the early days of 3-D but there was NEVER an excuse for flames that looked like that.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Fierce Deity on September 08, 2010, 09:09:56 PM
I think what disconnected MoE from the KQ series was not only the fact that it was not a point-and-click adventure game and the main character wasn't a part of the royal family (unlike the psyche-out that was Gwydion), but that it took place in a Daventry that was not familiar to the fanbase. Nobody knew about the Swamp, Underground Realm of the Gnomes, the Dimension of Death (which I assume is separate from the Realm of the Dead), or the Realm of the Sun from prior games. So the Archons, the Mask, Lucreto; it was news to everyone. So the fans were already disconnected from a place they would call 'home'. I would have liked to see Lucreto and the Archons in a prior game, cause MoE had a lot of potential. 
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 08, 2010, 11:29:12 PM
Well actually MOE is a weird hybrid of "Point and Click" (as in the puzzles/inventory), with physics puzzles, tomb raider type platforming, and diablo style combat. It basically combined the KQ7 single cursor interaction with all that other stuff.

As for the locations, actually you only are in Kingdom of Daventry for the first part of the game. The rest of the lands are the equivalent to leaving Daventry to visit Kolyma, Llewdor, Tamir, Serenia, Green Isles, Eldritch/Etheria, etc. That was part of Roberta's style, start or end in Daventry, and introduce new lands and kingdoms. MOE was so huge, it not only only introduced one new land (like previous games), it introduced essentially six (although technically KQ7 introduced several lands in one game as well).
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on September 08, 2010, 11:32:10 PM
I think what disconnected MoE from the KQ series was not only the fact that it was not a point-and-click adventure game and the main character wasn't a part of the royal family (unlike the psyche-out that was Gwydion), but that it took place in a Daventry that was not familiar to the fanbase. Nobody knew about the Swamp, Underground Realm of the Gnomes, the Dimension of Death (which I assume is separate from the Realm of the Dead), or the Realm of the Sun from prior games. So the Archons, the Mask, Lucreto; it was news to everyone. So the fans were already disconnected from a place they would call 'home'. I would have liked to see Lucreto and the Archons in a prior game, cause MoE had a lot of potential. 

Yeah but every game had a totally new land. Who knew about Tamir before KQ4? Or Etheria before KQ7? Daventry in the KQ7 intro looks very little like any of the parts of Daventry we had seen previously. Each game introduced new realms and characters--I mean for example the BCS was never mentioned in a game before or after KQ6. The only exception was KQ5 which gave a brief mention of Alhazred, though he wasn't named.


(Posted on: September 09, 2010, 01:31:05 AM)


Well actually MOE is a weird hybrid of "Point and Click" (as in the puzzles/inventory), with physics puzzles, tomb raider type platforming, and diablo style combat. It basically combined the KQ7 single cursor interaction with all that other stuff.

Yeah, it's a great mix of old and new. And it introduced I think some really interesting elements to both genres. I've never played a game quite as unique in terms of both gameplay and storyline. It probably is the best made game of the series, and definitely the most unique.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 08, 2010, 11:37:31 PM
It's certainly the most ambitious. I've always wondered what her vision would have been for King's Quest 9. My guess it probably would have built up many of the features of KQ8, but been even more polished.

And the technology would have caught up to her level of ambition. Many of the ideas that had to be cut, were cut because there were limitations to the technology at the time, that prevented her from creating certain aspects. Such as physics system for water currents. It would have taken another year to basically create that technology from scratch.

Its an interesting bit of trivia though from the first game in the series there were puzzle ideas Roberta had for the games, but she couldn't fit them all into a single game. So for example several of the ideas cut from KQ1 were moved into KQ2. Its possible this would have been the situation with KQ8. If she had made KQ9, maybe many of the ideas that were cut would have been incorporated into KQ9 somehow.

Oh, and come to think of it, MOE actually reincorporates some of the arcade abilities like the ability to "jump" that originally existed back in King's Quest 1  ;). Only thing it lacked was the ability to swim which was last seen back in KQ4. Well I suppose Connor can't duck either?
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on September 08, 2010, 11:53:22 PM
It's certainly the most ambitious. I've always wondered what her vision would have been for King's Quest 9. My guess it probably would have built up many of the features of KQ8, but been even more polished.

And the technology would have caught up to her level of ambition. Many of the ideas that had to be cut, were cut because there were limitations to the technology at the time, that prevented her from creating certain aspects. Such as physics system for water currents. It would have taken another year to basically create that technology from scratch.

Its an interesting bit of trivia though from the first game in the series there were puzzle ideas Roberta had for the games, but she couldn't fit them all into a single game. So for example several of the ideas cut from KQ1 were moved into KQ2. Its possible this would have been the situation with KQ8. If she had made KQ9, maybe many of the ideas that were cut would have been incorporated into KQ9 somehow.

Oh, and come to think of it, MOE actually reincorporates some of the arcade abilities like the ability to "jump" that originally existed back in King's Quest 1  ;). Only thing it lacked was the ability to swim which was last seen back in KQ4.

Me too. I wish we could see a KQ9 similar to KQ8. I really don't mind the action, so long as there is as much exploration and puzzles. The action, for me, actually makes things more interesting. I'd say the world of KQ8 is about as immersive and magical as KQ5's but in a different way. KQ6, story-wise, is a great game, but the Green Isles aren't very interesting and aren't that original--they're basically patisches of very common lands in fantasy, and borrows in it's cosmology heavily from pretty common mythology.
A lot of the stuff in KQ5, as in KQ8, are original, and the mythological referrences are pretty obscure. There's something oddly similar about them--Perhaps it's that they were both ambitious.

I think had Roberta stuck around, KQ9 could've been the new KQ6. What I mean is--KQ5 introduced some great ideas and radical new game mechanics; KQ6 built on the story and made it into an epic. A KQ9 done in the KQ8 style but building upon it, perhaps this time with Roberta working with a writer versed in sword and sorcery stories or even just by herself, could've been great.

I'd support an action/adventure KQ9, even if done by Activision, as long as it kept true to the uniqueness and mythology and mysteriousness of KQ8. No matter what else people say, you can't easily say that KQ8 is bland, especially in terms of the world it takes place in.

So yeah, action/adventure should be the future of the series.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 09, 2010, 12:02:21 AM
Well as Dreamfall has shown, there is the potential of making a game that has limited amounts of combat action, but contains plenty of areas with just plain old fashioned exploration. Basically she could have went a bit more old school in some areas, and punctuated the action, making them sequences scattered at different points of the game. Its all about balance :).

Another cool bit in dreamfall is there is this one point in the game where you are sneaking through an underground cavern. You can fight these little cave troll things, or you can alternatively use rocks and other things to distract the trolls and sneak by them. So there are alternative ways to solving the area.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on September 09, 2010, 12:10:50 AM
Well as Dreamfall has shown, there is the potential of making a game that has limited amounts of combat action, but contains plenty of areas with just plain old fashioned exploration. Basically she could have went a bit more old school in some areas, and punctuated the action, making them sequences scattered at different points of the game. Its all about balance :).

Perhaps. To be honest, I think the 2.5D adventure game (even if it has action elements) is a little too restrictive. One of the things I love most about KQ8 is the fully 3D world. I think 2.5D is a thing of the past, in any genre. I used to be an adventure genre devotee, I just don't see why we can't take what made the Sierra games magical and put it into something more immersive--action/adventure. You can still have mind bending puzzles, beautiful music, colorful characters, exciting and mysterious worlds etc in an action/adveture game. Mask of Eternity, for me, proved that.

And that's what it breaks down to really. It all depends on what's more important to a person when playing the KQ series (or any video game series for that matter): What's more important? The content, or the gameplay? Essentially, the story, or the way the story is told? I think that KQ is a series so unique and special it could transcend the adventure genre. Even Ken, for example, never looked at adventures as this dogmatic sort of rigid template, but as a broad part of "interactive fiction." And I think a KQ game can work under any sort of gameplay mechanics if you retain the individuality of the series.

Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Fierce Deity on September 09, 2010, 12:20:17 AM
I think what disconnected MoE from the KQ series was not only the fact that it was not a point-and-click adventure game and the main character wasn't a part of the royal family (unlike the psyche-out that was Gwydion), but that it took place in a Daventry that was not familiar to the fanbase. Nobody knew about the Swamp, Underground Realm of the Gnomes, the Dimension of Death (which I assume is separate from the Realm of the Dead), or the Realm of the Sun from prior games. So the Archons, the Mask, Lucreto; it was news to everyone. So the fans were already disconnected from a place they would call 'home'. I would have liked to see Lucreto and the Archons in a prior game, cause MoE had a lot of potential. 

Yeah but every game had a totally new land. Who knew about Tamir before KQ4? Or Etheria before KQ7? Daventry in the KQ7 intro looks very little like any of the parts of Daventry we had seen previously. Each game introduced new realms and characters--I mean for example the BCS was never mentioned in a game before or after KQ6. The only exception was KQ5 which gave a brief mention of Alhazred, though he wasn't named.

I realize that new worlds were introduced, but the Realm of the Sun was hovering over Daventry, and nobody knew about it until KQ8. I think if they introduced the areas of Daventry prior to KQ8, it wouldn't have seemed like the premise of the game was built in the last minute. I liked the premise of MoE, but it was so complex (the idea of the Mask upholding order light, and truth) and the concept wasn't established until KQ8. It's more than just the areas that were introduced, it was the lore of Daventry. I think that's why people felt like KQ8 was disconnected from the series (on top of Connor being the protagonist and it being an action-RPG).

Don't get me wrong though, I also would've like to see Sierra take the series into that direction. I thought they had a good thing going for the series. It was just vastly different from what the fans of KQ were used to.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 09, 2010, 12:37:10 AM
Quote
Perhaps. To be honest, I think the 2.5D adventure game (even if it has action elements) is a little too restrictive. One of the things I love most about KQ8 is the fully 3D world. I think 2.5D is a thing of the past, in any genre. I used to be an adventure genre devotee, I just don't see why we can't take what made the Sierra games magical and put it into something more immersive--action/adventure. You can still have mind bending puzzles, beautiful music, colorful characters, exciting and mysterious worlds etc in an action/adveture game. Mask of Eternity, for me, proved that.
?. Dreamfall isn't 2.5 d it had full 3-d, you can rotate the camera completely around the character.

Quote
I realize that new worlds were introduced, but the Realm of the Sun was hovering over Daventry, and nobody knew about it until KQ8. I think if they introduced the areas of Daventry prior to KQ8,

Sure, the Land of the Clouds also hovers or looms over Daventry, blocking the view of the sky ;). Also as you see in later cutscene (when you travel there via Paradise Lost), the Realm of the Sun actually seems to be out in space possibly partially in its own dimension (sorta like the Realm of the Dead and Dimension of Death). It's suitably distant, that I don't think its something you can see from the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aZ4_VrS8Jk&feature=related

Also you get the impression Connor and Graham doesn't even know about the Realm of the Sun. Graham seems surprised what little he sees in the mirror. Connor learns about it from several knowledge individuals he encounters. Like that Wizard (and later a Unicorn), and multiple characters once he leaves Daventry. He seems to be truly surprised by the information. He didn't know what the Mask of Eternity was until the Wizard explained it to him.

It doesn't seem its something the average Human knows about, only certain mystics and magical beings. Although technically the realm of the Sun is also I think referred to as the "heavens" by one or two characters in the game. If you didn't know, the pawn shoppe owner in KQ6 also refers to the "heavens" as one one of his exclamations. ;)

What do you mean by 'areas of Daventry'? As I mentioned previously only the first area is part of "Daventry", the "Kingdom of Daventry". Unless you meant part of the continent of Daventry?
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Fierce Deity on September 09, 2010, 12:50:12 AM
Yeah, the continent of Daventry, not the Kingdom. I saw the map of the King's Quest universe on the Omnipedia. It showed Llewdor, Tamir, Land of the Green Isles, Kolyma, and Serenia. By looking at the map, it seemed like Serenia was also on the continent of Daventry. So I'm assuming the other areas of Daventry that aren't a part of the Kingdom or Serenia must be the Swamp, Underground Realm of Gnomes, etc. I guess what I'm saying is, I felt the lore of the Mask and the Archons didn't tie-in all that well. This Mask is supposed to be like a god, yet religion and faith in the Mask didn't appear in the series till KQ8. It seems like the entire story was an afterthought. That's why I would have liked to see it tied into the story sooner.

Also, I wasn't aware that the Realm of the Sun was supposed to be in space. By looking at the map on the loading screen, it looked like it was closer to the land.   
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 09, 2010, 12:57:57 AM
Ya, the thing about maps they are somewhat exagerated (they don't list everything).

Actually there are supposed to be alot of lands on the continent of Daventry/Serenia (according to the Companion, and even the novels). The Kingdom of Daventry and Soverengnty of Serenia are just two of them. The novels actually introduced the Kingdom of Sorrow to the east, as well as Old Wood to the north and east, and surprisingly a swamp is mentioned to the north in The Floating Castle.

See No Weevil also mentions several other kingdoms on the continent.

Also back in KQ1 manual there is a nod to a possible land named Cumberland.

Also have you noticed how many times the maps for Daventry and its various lands have changed? Three times in the Companions alone :p...

Castle Daventry is placed somewhere close to the western shore of Daventry in first Companion (the maps were based on the continent maps in KQ3).

In 2nd edition and 3rd edition maps somewhere to middle to south-east of the continent (when Serenia reappeared).

It's back to the western shore in KQ8.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on September 09, 2010, 12:59:32 AM
Yeah, the continent of Daventry, not the Kingdom. I saw the map of the King's Quest universe on the Omnipedia. It showed Llewdor, Tamir, Land of the Green Isles, Kolyma, and Serenia. By looking at the map, it seemed like Serenia was also on the continent of Daventry. So I'm assuming the other areas of Daventry that aren't a part of the Kingdom or Serenia must be the Swamp, Underground Realm of Gnomes, etc. I guess what I'm saying is, I felt the lore of the Mask and the Archons didn't tie-in all that well. This Mask is supposed to be like a god, yet religion and faith in the Mask didn't appear in the series till KQ8. It seems like the entire story was an afterthought. That's why I would have liked to see it tied into the story sooner.

Also, I wasn't aware that the Realm of the Sun was supposed to be in space. By looking at the map on the loading screen, it looked like it was closer to the land.   

If you notice, in KQ2 we visit a Church. We're never specifically told it's a Christian Church, outside of Graham receiving the Cross. The Mask, according to an interview by Roberta, isn't supposed to be any particular deity but a universal symbol of deity. And really, the concept of any sort of higher beings wasn't touched upon until KQ7--The fates are only mentioned in passing in KQ6 and then seen in KQ7. The question of deity and Daventry's lore was never explored or explored in any of the games until KQ8, so I wouldn't say the story is an afterthought; It's a revealation.

As for the land, the KQ companion also says that between Serenia and Daventry there are many kingdoms, which come and go almost daily--tiny fiefdoms, other lands, etc. And remember, with each game the world of Daventry grew. The map of Daventry you could say was from Derek's perspective. Look at a map of our world from the 1300s--the world will look like a much smaller place.

And there's other lands that aren't shown on any of the Companion maps, but are mentioned--for example Manticore. It's a kingdom somewhere in the world of Daventry, but it's never shown on any map.

As to KQ8's land, it takes place on mainly the coast of Daventry. I think the map is a metaphorical sort of map, or symbolic, because we're told in the manual that the Dimension of Death is not physically connected to Daventry, yet is shown on the map as being under it. With the map, you should look at the supernatural realms (Realm of the Sun, Dimension of Death) as being only symbolically on the map.

(Posted on: September 09, 2010, 02:58:36 AM)


Ya, the thing about maps they are somewhat exagerated (they don't list everything).

Actually there are supposed to be alot of lands on the continent of Daventry/Serenia (according to the Companion, and even the novels). The Kingdom of Daventry and Soverengnty of Serenia are just two of them. The novels actually introduced the Kingdom of Sorrow to the east, as well as Old Wood to the north and east, and surprisingly a swamp is mentioned to the north in The Floating Castle.

See No Weevil also mentions several other kingdoms on the continent.

Also back in KQ1 manual there is a nod to a possible land named Cumberland.

And in KQ7 Manticore is mentioned, but never shown on any map.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 09, 2010, 01:04:22 AM
It's actually Monticore, btw.

Also most don't notice it, but the sea shown in the ingame load screen map is actually to the west. The swamp, mountains etc, are to the north. According to the manual. So the maps angle is shifted a different direction. Actually quite a few of the ingame maps seem to be at a different angle to that map.

BTW, we knew there were granite mountain ranges to the north back in KQ3. So having a volcano to the north as part of those mountains isn't particularly "surprising".

Like I mentioned in a previous post, a swamp to the north was mentioned in the Floating Castle. Probably a coincidence, but one that happens to fit the two together.

Also interesting is that the town of Daventry was first mentioned in Companion, and novels. In a sense its visited in KQ8... Although its location is different than mentioned in the novels. Appearing to be north of the castle rather than south.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Fierce Deity on September 09, 2010, 01:15:38 AM
With the map, you should look at the supernatural realms (Realm of the Sun, Dimension of Death) as being only symbolically on the map.

Seems like they're symbolizing Heaven and Hell. It's a shame KQ8 was the last official title. Like I said before, they really could have opened up the game to a new audience and with a new universe to explore.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on September 09, 2010, 01:19:43 AM
With the map, you should look at the supernatural realms (Realm of the Sun, Dimension of Death) as being only symbolically on the map.

Seems like they're symbolizing Heaven and Hell. It's a shame KQ8 was the last official title. Like I said before, they really could have opened up the game to a new audience and with a new universe to explore.

Indeed. The series was only getting better as it was going on, and KQ8 was a rebirth and reinvention. Perhaps someday an official sequel will pick up where KQ8 left off and go back into the world. I wouldn't mind action. I think it might be cool. And there is commercial potential (on Activision's part) for an action/adventure/RPG KQ9. Because those markets are all still very profitable, and the genre that KQ is, fantasy, is always profitable.
I want to see either more adventures of Connor, or a KQ9 in the spirit of Mask.
Mask is a very symbolic and spiritual game. It's like Malory mixed with fairy tales, Celtic, Mesopotamian and esoteric Christianity. I could go for that kind of brew. KQ could be very spiritual.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 09, 2010, 01:20:18 AM
Nah, Dimension of Death isn't hell. Its more of a purgatory. Its neither good nor evil, but holds spirits who are both good and wicked. Once Azriel judges the dead they then can move onto whatever heavens and hells await them.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on September 09, 2010, 01:21:25 AM
Nah, Dimension of Death isn't hell. Its more of a purgatory. Its neither good nor evil, but holds spirits who are both good and wicked. Once Azriel judges the dead they then can move onto whatever heavens and hells await them.

I think a next official KQ game, if Activision ever makes it, should explore ''Heaven'' and ''Hell'' in the world of KQ. It could be interesting.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 09, 2010, 01:24:03 AM
Remember that easter egg in Laura Bow 2? The painting in which King Graham is tortured by skeletons in hell?

No seriously, that could be a nod to a hero becoming villain ;).

Ponders though, Activision creating a game set in the King's Quest universe but in the same genre as God of War/Dante's Inferno/Castlevania: Lords of Shadow type game... Having to fight your way out of hell at some point, and saving heaven... With puzzle/exploration sequences tossed in between intense epic fighting sequences...

In the world of reboots and semi-reboots and truncated titles they could just call the game King's Quest (with no numbers or subtitles), to draw interest for the game (sort of what they did with Wolfenstein (2009) or Medal of Honor (2010)).

Classic adventure game genre might be a nail away from being buried in the ground... But I think the King's Quest universe is fascinating enough to inspire and be used in games of several different genres. There could even be potential for an MMO, based on the various lands that have been introduced already.

Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Fierce Deity on September 09, 2010, 01:44:13 AM
Ponders though, Activision creating a game set in the King's Quest universe but in the same genre as God of War/Dante's Inferno/Castlevania: Lords of Shadow type game... Having to fight your way out of hell at some point, and saving heaven... With puzzle/exploration sequences tossed in between intense epic fighting sequences...

Only if they do it right. If it's going to be another God of War clone, I think people may lack interest, especially if it's entitled King's Quest. Games that try to disengage from their roots to explore uncharted territories don't get the best reception.

Classic adventure game genre might be a nail away from being buried in the ground... But I think the King's Quest universe is fascinating enough to inspire and be used in games of several different genres. There could even be potential for an MMO, based on the various lands that have been introduced already.

An MMO might definitely work, but once again, MMOs these days aren't multifaceted like other genres. I rarely meet people who play more than one MMO, and the MMO they play is almost always World of Warcraft. I think if they were going to explore new enterprises, they should start with the Action RPG genre they were heading for with MoE. Maybe if the game was a little more polished and stood out more (having an innovative and intriguing battle system, maybe like The Witcher), it could reach an upstanding potential that could then be a gateway to other genres.   
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on September 09, 2010, 01:48:02 AM
Remember that easter egg in Laura Bow 2? The painting in which King Graham is tortured by skeletons in hell?

No seriously, that could be a nod to a hero becoming villain ;).

Ponders though, Activision creating a game set in the King's Quest universe but in the same genre as God of War/Dante's Inferno/Castlevania: Lords of Shadow type game... Having to fight your way out of hell at some point, and saving heaven... With puzzle/exploration sequences tossed in between intense epic fighting sequences...

In the world of reboots and semi-reboots and truncated titles they could just call the game King's Quest (with no numbers or subtitles), to draw interest for the game (sort of what they did with Wolfenstein (2009) or Medal of Honor (2010)).

Classic adventure game genre might be a nail away from being buried in the ground... But I think the King's Quest universe is fascinating enough to inspire and be used in games of several different genres. There could even be potential for an MMO, based on the various lands that have been introduced already.



My dream is for King's Quest to become a world unto itself, like Dungeons & Dragons is. Many stories, many families, many kingdoms, worlds and adventures to explore. I think "King's Quest", the universe, can go beyond the Royal Family of Daventry.
Look at Adventure in Serenia--That sort of idea. It's the same universe, indeed, same land as KQ5, just different characters with no direct connection to King's Quest.

I think a "God of War" style King's Quest, as long as it kept the world (and PERHAPS some of the characters, or at least a referrence to them--Perhaps you could play a Knight in Graham's court, or even King Edward's) could be awesome. There's still plenty of stories to tell, and I think they should be VERY mythology, fable, literature and fairy tale based. Not so much focus on the characters but instead the stories and the mythology that the story is wrapped around.
Hell, even a basic story like the story of Graham's grandfather defeating the Dragon of Herenna--Without involving Gods or Hell or Heaven--could be awesome if done right. Or even a prequel to KQ1, exploring what gave Graham the title as the bravest knight of Daventry.

You could even explore stories perhaps about the "Next generation"--The children of Alex and Cassima, or Edgar and Rosella. You could do something out of the blue and take a peasant, like Connor, and make him a Knight. Indeed, having Connor be a peasant was no coincidence--I think a subtle part of the storyline was that you didn't have to be a "Noble" to be Noble, or brave, even though that's what was commonly thought in the real medieval ages.

There is so much that can be done with the universe of King's Quest. All it takes is imagination.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 09, 2010, 02:22:49 AM
The thing is action-rpg in the style of MOE's combat is a bit too clunky. Anything going in that direction is regressing really...

There is a reason why action-rpg genre morphed into the Devil May Cry style combat, puzzle solving, and adventure.  God of War is simply a Devil May Cry/Ninja Gaiden clone with super boss characters, that require button timing. With extreme violence (something a KQ style action-rpg would not need).

I understand Dante's Inferno does the same button timing boss fights. Lords of Shadow will have real time boss fights of the type in Shadow of the Colossus. More like giant puzzles than purely a combat fight.

Hell even the battle system in Assasin's Creed is way more elegant compared to what MOE has to offer... Although its not as over the top as Devil May Cry style games. Gotta love its one hit kills though.

As for MMO's I don't play WOW anymore... complete waste of money (for someone that is busy with real life and can't stand monthly fees if I'm not going to get my time out of it)... Actually companies are starting to find success in the free to play model. LOTRO has been successful, and will probably see even more success now that its gone free to play. Its an elegant game compared to WoW. Simply beautiful. Give it a try if you haven't. You can pretty much access almost all the content without need to pay for extras. If you buy expansion packs you then get access to those areas to play for free as well (plus whatever they have to offer). You just get limited to a single character to use, and gold limitations, and less bags to carry stuff.

Loves my Lifetime VIP status, heh heh.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 09, 2010, 02:57:30 AM
Did they have better flames that early in the history of 3-d? Only thing I can think of was games using 2-d sprites for fire, that would always re-adjust itself to face your character... It looked more realistic artistically, but looked fake if you got too close to it to see that it was flat (quake 1 for example)... MOE might have been the first attempt at making 3-d fire, although it looks more like puslating fire/lava masses. They look slightly better in 3dfx mode btw, since they have a transparent appearance (they are opaque in directx and software render).

They simply didn't technology to do fires right back then... Not even Quake 2 had realistic looking fire and explosions, but kind of orange globular masses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVs6RPAmNEg&feature=related
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Fierce Deity on September 09, 2010, 02:58:05 AM
I love MMOs. I played WoW as well, and I quit because I couldn't stand the endgame. Once you max out your level, you have to either PvP or Raid. I wasn't a master of my class (Rogue), so PvP was out of the question. I couldn't raid, because I couldn't find a guild that would take a "raiding rogue" seriously. I gave up.

I actually have had the opportunity to play LOTRO. It's a fun game, but I personally am waiting for Guild Wars 2. I wasn't a big fan of the first one, but the sequel seems to be coming together. I'm not completely sold on it yet, I'd like to see more before I decide. The other game I'm looking at is Star Wars: The Old Republic. Bioware keeps saying that they want to focus on story and single-player experience. It sounds like it may become a free-to-play, but they haven't confirmed whether it will be or not. I did see one gameplay video that shows a character flying to another planet in their personal spaceship, and it turns into a 3D version of Galaga. It just sounds like it's a single-player game with multi-player aspects, like Diablo.

I also agree that MoE's combat was clunky, but that doesn't mean they can polish it up. They shouldn't make it similar, they should make something new. Like I said in my other post, The Witcher has a fun combat system. It keeps you on your toes. I wouldn't mind seeing a King's Quest game that conformed to that genre, but have a satisfying combat system, as well as a more open world. Wandering in a world where everyone is turned to stone makes the game kind of dull.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 09, 2010, 03:06:50 AM
I serious doubt they'd retread on the "all humans turned to stone" plot line.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on September 09, 2010, 03:27:04 AM
Did they have better flames that early in the history of 3-d? Only thing I can think of was games using 2-d sprites for fire, that would always re-adjust itself to face your character... It looked more realistic artistically, but looked fake if you got too close to it to see that it was flat... MOE might have been the first attempt at making 3-d fire, although it looks more like puslating fire/lava masses. They look slightly better in 3dfx mode btw, since they have a transparent appearance (they are opaque in directx and software render).

They simply didn't technology to do fires right back then... Not even Quake 2 had realistic looking fire and explosions, but kind of orange globular masses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVs6RPAmNEg&feature=related

Anvil of Dawn seemed to have pretty good fire effects and that came out in '96
(http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/images/screenshots/1/196611/anvilofd_screen003.jpg)
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 09, 2010, 03:46:29 AM
Judging from that screen shot its a 2-d sprite based game. So that really doesn't count as "3-d" fire.

It's also clearly a turn based dungeon crawler. So not even in the same genre...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pvf415GQuA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anvil_of_Dawn
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: KatieHal on September 09, 2010, 07:38:54 AM
I think the problem was that MOE changed too many things at once--if it had only changed a few of those instead, I imagine it would've been more well-received as a KQ game.

And a new slew of posts re: MOE have been merged with this thread from where they were in the Best KQ villain thread.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: snabbott on September 09, 2010, 09:24:05 AM
Me too. I wish we could see a KQ9 similar to KQ8. I really don't mind the action, so long as there is as much exploration and puzzles. The action, for me, actually makes things more interesting.
TSL was originally supposed to have action elements.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: KatieHal on September 09, 2010, 09:29:01 AM
We still have a few, later on in the game.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: waltzdancing on September 09, 2010, 09:30:00 AM
Time to dust off my quick mouse finger then.  :)
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: snabbott on September 09, 2010, 09:45:18 AM
We still have a few, later on in the game.
Right - how could I forget? I only know about one, though. The others must be future development?
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 09, 2010, 09:55:54 AM
Quote
I think the problem was that MOE changed too many things at once--if it had only changed a few of those instead, I imagine it would've been more well-received as a KQ game.

And a new slew of posts re: MOE have been merged with this thread from where they were in the Best KQ villain thread.


I think at least some of the flack comes from the fact that KQ7 wasn't entirely well received by KQ fans who felt let down after success that was KQ6.

Roberta has admitted they were huge amount of people who didn't like KQ7 because of its cartoony, and its more childish style. That and it was also a way ahead of its time (system requirements wise). Many people who bought it didn't have computers that could run it properly. So they experienced it as very choppy animation.

She probably lost alot of fans that never came back to try KQ8, since it deviated even further, and required even greater specs.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: wilco64256 on September 09, 2010, 10:01:29 AM
It's like they massively over-corrected when they did 8 and came so far to the other end of the spectrum from 7 that they alienated a lot of the other group who hadn't already lost a lot of faith in the series thanks to 7's setup.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: B'rrr on September 09, 2010, 10:08:05 AM
We still have a few, later on in the game.
Right - how could I forget? I only know about one, though. The others must be future development?

This is new to me, I only read about one boss fight like scene, so there are multiple ones?
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: KatieHal on September 09, 2010, 10:15:33 AM
Well, a 'few' may be overstating it--I was thinking more like 'a few' different things you can do in said sequence, rather than 'a few' different sequences.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 09, 2010, 10:27:46 AM
Quote
It's like they massively over-corrected when they did 8 and came so far to the other end of the spectrum from 7 that they alienated a lot of the other group who hadn't already lost a lot of faith in the series thanks to 7's setup.

Ya.

Although, on the bright side it brought in alot of new fans from the action gaming market that would probably never have played King's Quest otherwise. So their introduction to the series was a good thing, even if it was too little, too late for the series.

Part of her intent was KQ8 was to create a game with mass appeal that wouldn't be limited to just KQ fans. In that much the game did succeed. It was the best selling adventure game that year (outsold Grim Fandango 2 to 1), and the best selling King's Quest game ever. It just didn't have the mass appeal of mainstream action games like Half-life and other FPS. So it simply couldn't compete. Thus the bean counters saw no reason to make KQ9.

Its been said even if Roberta had stuck closer to previous games, it probably would have failed, and sold far less than it did. It was the fact it drew in a new audience that made it sell as well as it did.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on September 09, 2010, 02:53:49 PM
Quote
It's like they massively over-corrected when they did 8 and came so far to the other end of the spectrum from 7 that they alienated a lot of the other group who hadn't already lost a lot of faith in the series thanks to 7's setup.

Ya.

Although, on the bright side it brought in alot of new fans from the action gaming market that would probably never have played King's Quest otherwise. So their introduction to the series was a good thing, even if it was too little, too late for the series.

Part of her intent was KQ8 was to create a game with mass appeal that wouldn't be limited to just KQ fans. In that much the game did succeed. It was the best selling adventure game that year (outsold Grim Fandango 2 to 1), and the best stelling King's Quest game. It just didn't have the mass appeal of mainstream action games like Half-life and other FPS. So it simply couldn't compete. Thus the bean counters saw no reason to make KQ9.

Its been said even if Roberta had stuck closer to previous games, it probably would have failed, and sold far less than it did. It was the fact it drew in a new audience that made it sell as well as it did.

Right.

And I don't think it deviated too far. Actually in a lot of ways it went backwards, in a sense--In the early games, KQ1 and KQ2 you COULD kill the bad guys or at least some of them, but you weren't rewarded for it. It also brought back the ability to jump, swim, etc.
To me, the action was never an issue, but that's just me  :P
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 09, 2010, 03:12:23 PM
I agree. I think its got an almost retro feel to it, like if for example KQ1-KQ2 (and lesser extent 3 and 4) were recreated in 3-d. There is this sense of open ended explorable world (like the earliest games) with puzzles scattered about. The enemies in MOE remind me of the "random enemies" encounters from KQ1, 2, 3 and 4 (of course the ones in MOE are far less dangerous in comparison). Especially if you consider those goblins and spriggans are essentially the equivalent of the monsters that invaded Daventry back in KQ1, story wise.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on September 09, 2010, 03:32:12 PM
I agree. I think its got an almost retro feel to it, like if for example KQ1-KQ2 (and lesser extent 3 and 4) were recreated in 3-d. There is this sense of open ended explorable world (like the earliest games) with puzzles scattered about. The enemies in MOE remind me of the "random enemies" encounters from KQ1, 2, 3 and 4 (of course the ones in MOE are far less dangerous in comparison). Especially if you consider those goblins and spriggans are essentially the equivalent of the monsters that invaded Daventry back in KQ1, story wise.

Yup, plus you've got the 'non-Royalty' main character. I mean to be fair, KQ1 isn't the Quest of a King, but the Quest to be a King. Graham is a Knight in KQ1, and only in the very end becomes King.
It was definitely a rebirth and reinvention of the series, with retro elements and modern elements all shown through the lens of a more modern genre and technology. It was a King's Quest for the 21st century. I do hope someday Activision makes a sequel like it, staying true to the mythology of the games of course. Nothing like the KQ9 that Sierra was making in 2002--No Zelda-ish 3D. I like that 'realistic' 3D style and the very Medieval world and feel of Mask.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: crayauchtin on September 09, 2010, 10:58:49 PM
My dream is for King's Quest to become a world unto itself, like Dungeons & Dragons is. Many stories, many families, many kingdoms, worlds and adventures to explore. I think "King's Quest", the universe, can go beyond the Royal Family of Daventry.
Look at Adventure in Serenia--That sort of idea. It's the same universe, indeed, same land as KQ5, just different characters with no direct connection to King's Quest.
I would LOVE that. That was part of my idea behind the King's Quest roleplaying thread on these forums, but not enough people seemed interested.
Honestly, I'm a BIG fan of MoE as a game and even as a game set in the King's Quest world but I felt that -- like Adventure in Serenia -- it needed to be a bit more separated. You could honestly make games set in the KQ world in SO many genres -- simulation (a medieval Sims game that takes place in Daventry?), strategy (kingdoms warring against each other -- not Daventry, cause hello Shield, but maybe like... Eastern & Western Kolyma, etc), adventure (been there :P), action/RPG (a la MoE)... you get the idea! Not to mention tabletop RPGs!

Quote
There is so much that can be done with the universe of King's Quest. All it takes is imagination.
I'm going to take this moment to not-so-subtly shamelessly plug some things to help encourage this sort of creativity....
First of all: King's Quest Roleplaying Thread (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8567.0)! Check my signature or click that link!! :P
Second of all: Creative Expression (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?board=68.0) section of the forum -- perfect for writing out your ideas for the KQ universe!
Thirdly: King's Quest Omnipedia -- did you know it has a fan fiction section (http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Fan_fiction)? And, were a successful roleplay to begin, I bet Baggins would agree to let the RP be archived in the fanfiction section!
Fourthly: My much less specific and still fledgling Arcane Lore Wiki (http://highfantasy.wikia.com) for all things high fantasy -- including King's Quest! It's meant to be a very lore-specific resource for writer's and RPers. (Much like the all-inclusive SciFi Wiki (http://scifi.wikia.com)... but, y'know, less science!) I'd love to have some fanfics and RPs to archive and/or link to on there as well!

And.... as a source of inspiration, the Encyclopedia Mythica (http://pantheon.org/) pretty much covers all the mythology and folklore you could ever want.
SO... my challenge to all of you.... Let the creativity begin!

...and if it helps, I'm also going to post the Prologue to the fanfic I'm working on this weekend. You have been warned!
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 09, 2010, 11:17:45 PM
Quote
cause hello Shield, but maybe like
No seriously, all it takes is strong magic, and shield ceases to work... :p... Whoever sold the shield to Daventry lied...
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: crayauchtin on September 09, 2010, 11:39:23 PM
Okay, so, maybe Daventry would be like the enemy in the final campaign in the game then? Or, you would play Daventry in the first campaign and it would be pretty easy. :P
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: atec123 on September 10, 2010, 10:59:20 AM
One thing I didn't like about moe, was how f***ing different daventry was!  I feel like if it wasn't daventry or there was some explanation I wouldn't have minded.  also, the way I want to see KQ8 as you guys should know is in 2d/AGS form.  3d, and especially first person and with that sort of combat just wasn't doing it for me.   I loved the game, but I think in edition to the game as it was, I would want to see it redone in 2d.  not sure how I would want the story to me.  probably more connected to the rest of the series, however that may be.  Maybe use the production version of the game as a base, but take some earlier ideas and come up with some new ideas.  I remember in KQ2VGA there was somthing with Connor.  haven't played that one in ages though, so I don't remember it really.  in fact, I need to play it again. 

howbout QfG style fights in addition to some of those cinimatic stuffs?  all in VGA/AGS stuffs.  just a thought.  actually thats all this post really is.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 10, 2010, 11:44:52 AM
The problem with "Daventry" (assuming you are referring to the kingdom) is its completely different in pretty much every single game in the series...

While KQ1 and KQ3 had similar looking locations were in completely different areas in both games. I.E the Ancient WEll is much too close to the Door into Mountain in KQ3. When they were essentially on 5-6 screens apart in KQ1.

In KQV the area changed appearances yet again. What is seen doesn't relate to anyh areas from the previous games. There wasn't a big hill  in front of the castle in KQ1. Plus several rivers are missing, that were infront of the castle in KQ1.

In KQ7, Daventry might actually be on a plateau above a deep valley... Although its hard to tell.

KQ8? It mostly portrays a village that simply was never shown in previous games. The castle? It's portrayed on a hill/mountain.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: atec123 on September 10, 2010, 01:32:12 PM
I dunno... the castle , the kingdom, everything just didn't look right to me. Good point about it changing in the other games though.  also there was nothing really to be seen in daventry that was seen in previous games that I can think of...  it was essentially a totally different place and I didn't like the changes.  in the other games, I didn't mind them.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: kindofdoon on September 10, 2010, 02:10:01 PM
I just purchased MoE and should get it within the week. If I can't get it to run on Vista, I'll have to break out one of my dusty 10-year old computers.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Jafar on September 10, 2010, 02:13:02 PM
You could honestly make games set in the KQ world in SO many genres -- simulation (a medieval Sims game that takes place in Daventry?), strategy (kingdoms warring against each other -- not Daventry, cause hello Shield, but maybe like... Eastern & Western Kolyma, etc), adventure (been there :P), action/RPG (a la MoE)... you get the idea! Not to mention tabletop RPGs!

How about a platformer? :P
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/RetroJafar/Poisonoussnakeman.png)
Yes, this is a faked screenshot.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: atec123 on September 10, 2010, 02:15:03 PM
I just purchased MoE and should get it within the week. If I can't get it to run on Vista, I'll have to break out one of my dusty 10-year old computers.
shoulda gone with GOG. http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/king’s_quest_7_8

IDK if it will work directly in windows 7.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: kindofdoon on September 10, 2010, 02:27:17 PM
I'm not worried. I wanted the Vivendi 1-7 collection, plus 8 on the side. The price was unbeatable, and I have plenty of old computers lying around in case it doesn't cooperate with Vista.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: wilco64256 on September 10, 2010, 02:39:11 PM
It runs in Vista well enough from what I understand, it's 7 that was really uncooperative (though it works fine in 7 from the GOG bundle I bought).
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: kindofdoon on September 10, 2010, 02:43:55 PM
Oh, that's great news then. But I may not get to it for a few months, as I have a few games I need to beat first.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 10, 2010, 02:54:34 PM
Quote
I dunno... the castle , the kingdom, everything just didn't look right to me. Good point about it changing in the other games though.  also there was nothing really to be seen in daventry that was seen in previous games that I can think of...  it was essentially a totally different place and I didn't like the changes.  in the other games, I didn't mind them.

Well like I said the only really weird bit was the castle on the mountain where it seemed to be on flat land in previous games (even if surrounding lands changed every other game). Coincidently the castle throne room looks quite a bit like an artwork of the throne room in the King's Quest Companion. The novels actually talk about Daventry castle having two throne rooms. Actually there is some similarity to the throne room from KQ1 sega as well.

There were nods to village/s of Daventry in the King's Quest Companion 1st and 2nd Edition, and the novels. So if you at least read those the existence of a village in MOE wasn't really all that strange. Ya I know there is no evidence of the village being seen or existing back in KQI-7. But still it only makes sense that Daventry would have towns and villages around the kingdom. It would be strange if the only inhabitants lived in the castle, a gingerbread house, a woodcuter's shack, and the gnome's hut :p....

On a related note Peter Spear (I.E. Derek Karlavaegen) just chalked up the various differences in Daventry's geography in each game to world being in magical flux, and changing shape on whim. That's how Derek gets away with printing at least three completely different maps for Daventry, and explain why they are different. AS well as explain why the chart back in KQ3 doesn't conform to bird's eye views and addition of Serenia in KQV.

Seriously though Castle Daventry itself is another landmark that changes with each game... and has different portrayals in the artwork :p...
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: atec123 on September 10, 2010, 04:06:37 PM
It runs in Vista well enough from what I understand, it's 7 that was really uncooperative (though it works fine in 7 from the GOG bundle I bought).
plus I bet the GOG bundle fixes some of those motherfrikken bugs!  those were terrible.  actually had to download a saved game from the interwebs to get past one of em.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on September 10, 2010, 04:31:36 PM
I just purchased MoE and should get it within the week. If I can't get it to run on Vista, I'll have to break out one of my dusty 10-year old computers.
shoulda gone with GOG. http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/king’s_quest_7_8

IDK if it will work directly in windows 7.

It does.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 10, 2010, 05:17:55 PM
Gog wouldn't have advertised it "working in win7" if it didn't. They are well respected...

Quote
I wanted the Vivendi 1-7 collection, plus 8 on the side

The vivendi collection is one of the worst collections, and regular KQ8 won't work in vista/7.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: MusicallyInspired on September 10, 2010, 05:50:07 PM
The Good Old Games bundles don't have the (infinitely superior) KQ1 remake, though. Seriously, compared to all the other Sierra remakes, KQ1 was the better one that actually improved a lot on the original (which was barely anything at all and had a few bad game design choices). Not to say some other Sierra remakes weren't improvements, but as far as remakes go KQ1's was the best example with the most improvement.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 10, 2010, 05:59:38 PM
I think the purpose for leaving out the KQ1 remake in this instance (although its kinda silly) is becaue the previous vivendi bundle left out the KQ1 original, and secondly because its intended to be an AGI bundle portraying the games as they were originally released.

Who knows it could also do with the fact that KQ2/KQ3 continuity/universe/geography/timeline were directly built upon that version of KQ1 (rather than the remake). There are actually quite a few differences between KQ1 remake and KQ3 as far as geographic details, and some story details. It's interesting bit of trivia but Hoyle I details were built off of facts established in original KQ1, that were left out of the remake. Like a reference to the "Raging River". Also interesting is that King's Quest Companion took the route of the original rather than the remake.

However, one would have to ask Activision and GOG why they chose not to rereleae the remake though.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Fierce Deity on September 10, 2010, 06:10:28 PM
However, one would have to ask Activision and GOG why they chose not to rereleae the remake though.

I think it has something to do with Activision feeding on their consumers' misery. But honestly, I don't know.  :-\
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: atec123 on September 10, 2010, 07:03:57 PM
I just purchased MoE and should get it within the week. If I can't get it to run on Vista, I'll have to break out one of my dusty 10-year old computers.
shoulda gone with GOG. http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/king’s_quest_7_8

IDK if it will work directly in windows 7.

It does.
oops!  I mean i don't think the ORIGINAL version will work in win7.

I imagine the GoG one would.  they seem legit.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on September 10, 2010, 07:56:09 PM
However, one would have to ask Activision and GOG why they chose not to rereleae the remake though.

I think it has something to do with Activision feeding on their consumers' misery. But honestly, I don't know.  :-\

If they ''fed on their customers misery'' they wouldn't have released any of the old Sierra games to gog.

(Posted on: September 10, 2010, 09:55:27 PM)


I just purchased MoE and should get it within the week. If I can't get it to run on Vista, I'll have to break out one of my dusty 10-year old computers.
shoulda gone with GOG. http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/king’s_quest_7_8

IDK if it will work directly in windows 7.

It does.
oops!  I mean i don't think the ORIGINAL version will work in win7.

I imagine the GoG one would.  they seem legit.

The original doesn't work with Win7.
I've tried it.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: crayauchtin on September 10, 2010, 08:11:31 PM
How about a platformer? :P
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/RetroJafar/Poisonoussnakeman.png)
Yes, this is a faked screenshot.
Absolutely!!
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Fierce Deity on September 10, 2010, 09:08:05 PM
However, one would have to ask Activision and GOG why they chose not to rereleae the remake though.

I think it has something to do with Activision feeding on their consumers' misery. But honestly, I don't know.  :-\

If they ''fed on their customers misery'' they wouldn't have released any of the old Sierra games to gog.

That's up for debate. I think it's more unfortunate to be given an inferior version of a game and not being given the option for the superior version, than to just be deprived of any version. If you weren't given the KQ collection to begin with, you wouldn't know what you were missing. If you were given the KQ collection, you would know that you were missing the remake of KQ1. There's a difference. But like I said, it's up for debate.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Baggins on September 11, 2010, 12:17:44 AM
They did the same thing with the Space Quest 1+2+3 collection as well. It's got the original rather than the remake.
Title: Re: Remaking MoE
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on August 08, 2011, 11:47:35 PM
I'd really like to see this idea become a reality. A recreation of the 1996/1997 version of KQ8. More KQ oriented, using the 1996 era graphics shown in the early screenshots on page 1.