I was playing through King's Quest 6 again (thanks to Lambonius and kindofdoon's assistance) and I came across something rather intriguing. When I came back to Azure's throne room having defeated the minotaur, Azure had said that he was under strict orders from Alhazred to dispose of any intruders. During this part of the conversation, Azure explained how Alhazred was his liege and he would be betraying the Crown by allowing Alexander to leave the island, but because Alexander fulfilled the prophecy and saved Azure's daughter, he was obligated to help him. However, after Alexander leaves the island, he'd no longer be helped by Azure and the Winged Ones to avoid a conflict with the ruler of the Green Isles.
This got me thinking about what happened in Episode 1. Alhazred hadn't even married Cassima yet, so technically he wasn't even King of the Isles. Alexander was married to Cassima during Episode 1 of The Silver Lining. Even then, Azure referred to Alexander as only being one who fulfilled their prophecy, and nothing more. Wouldn't Alexander be not only the one who fulfilled a prophecy, the one who reunited the isles by returning their treasures, but also be the King of the Isles? If this is correct, I wonder why Azure would hold such a bitterness towards Alexander and only refer to him as a measly human, and not his liege or ruler. I'm just curious, cause when Azure seemed like his allegiance lied with Alhazred during that cutscene, I instantly tilted my head slightly to the left in wonder as to why Azure wouldn't want to help Alexander in his time of need. Please, discuss.
'Cause he's a jerk. :/
Really, though, he doesn't seem to hold any humans in high regard, whether they have authority over him or not. Graham's position as a King should command at least a little respect, but he doesn't give it there, either. I imagine Alexander would receive the same treatment, with the exception that Azure, while not happy about it, would obey Alexander's commands. I also imagine that Azure probably wouldn't be too disappointed if he were given unrivaled control of his own domain, answering to no one but himself and not being a part of the Land of the Green Isles.
Of course, now someone who has actually read the KQ Companion will come along and blow my theory out of the water. :P
...Because you play as Graham in the first episode, and not Alexander?
Yeah I'd say that one big aspect is the fact that it's Graham coming to visit and he doesn't really care that Graham is king of some totally different place.
Quote from: KQ5Fan on August 07, 2010, 03:49:26 PM
...Because you play as Graham in the first episode, and not Alexander?
Graham, who is the
Father of Azure's King and who saved Cassima from Mordack's hands.
Azure also says that Graham's family problem is his own--But Graham's ''family problem'' directly involves Azure's own liege. He showed more loyalty to Alhazred than to Alexander, which does not make sense.
But he's also of no political or ethical importance to Azure, which according to KQ6, is all he cares about.
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on August 07, 2010, 04:47:26 PM
Quote from: KQ5Fan on August 07, 2010, 03:49:26 PM
...Because you play as Graham in the first episode, and not Alexander?
Graham, who is the Father of Azure's King and who saved Cassima from Mordack's hands.
Azure also says that Graham's family problem is his own--But Graham's ''family problem'' directly involves Azure's own liege. He showed more loyalty to Alhazred than to Alexander, which does not make sense.
I doubt that Azure even cared that much that Cassima was missing in the first place. Seems like the only reason he even cared about Alexander's work in King's Quest 6 is because Alexander saved his daughter from the minotaur and restored peace between the islands. The islands aren't feuding now and nobody in Azure's family is in immediate danger so why would he concern himself with Graham's problems?
Quote from: KQ5Fan on August 07, 2010, 03:49:26 PM
...Because you play as Graham in the first episode, and not Alexander?
I meant to say Alexander. Even though you play as Graham, Azure referred to Alexander as if he was a subordinate. He shrugged off the predicament that Alexander was in. He said that Alexander fulfilled a prophecy and then was rewarded for it, so he deserves no further treatment. If Alexander truly was Azure's king, you'd think he'd be a tad bit more caring. Even if he doesn't like humans, he should show allegiance to his king. He was willing to bend over backwards for Alhazred who wasn't even king yet.
Quote from: Fierce Deity on August 07, 2010, 07:54:39 PMHe was willing to bend over backwards for Alhazred who wasn't even king yet.
He wasn't bending over backwards, he was simply following orders. There's a difference between following a direct order from his King and choosing to do something helpful for his King when not ordered to. Azure was not ordered by anyone who had authority over him to help Alexander, so in his mind, he didn't need to, and apparently he preferred not to.
Quote from: Enchantermon on August 07, 2010, 08:20:11 PM
Quote from: Fierce Deity on August 07, 2010, 07:54:39 PMHe was willing to bend over backwards for Alhazred who wasn't even king yet.
He wasn't bending over backwards, he was simply following orders. There's a difference between following a direct order from his King and choosing to do something helpful for his King when not ordered to. Azure was not ordered by anyone who had authority over him to help Alexander, so in his mind, he didn't need to, and apparently he preferred not to.
That makes more sense. :yes:
Still, in the cutscene in KQ6, he obviously declined Alhazred's orders to help Alexander (because he saved his daughter). So I would think he would be a bit more generous towards Alexander this time around with him being King.
I also don't want to sound like I'm complaining about the TSL cutscene. I found it rather funny. Azure's voice actor did a great job at making him sound like a pompous jerk. :P
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on August 07, 2010, 04:47:26 PM
Quote from: KQ5Fan on August 07, 2010, 03:49:26 PM
...Because you play as Graham in the first episode, and not Alexander?
Graham, who is the Father of Azure's King and who saved Cassima from Mordack's hands.
Azure also says that Graham's family problem is his own--But Graham's ''family problem'' directly involves Azure's own liege. He showed more loyalty to Alhazred than to Alexander, which does not make sense.
Quote from: Enchantermon on August 07, 2010, 08:20:11 PM
Quote from: Fierce Deity on August 07, 2010, 07:54:39 PMHe was willing to bend over backwards for Alhazred who wasn't even king yet.
He wasn't bending over backwards, he was simply following orders. There's a difference between following a direct order from his King and choosing to do something helpful for his King when not ordered to. Azure was not ordered by anyone who had authority over him to help Alexander, so in his mind, he didn't need to, and apparently he preferred not to.
Alhazred had demonstrated a willingness and ability to kill the well-defended in their sleep. Alexander and his extended family have not. :P
Later, Alexander did demonstrate the ability to fulfill prophecy and take down the monster that had plagued the Winged Ones for ages... in the scales of Azure's value system, the latter thankfully proved of weightier importance.
Quote from: KQ5Fan on August 07, 2010, 04:50:15 PM
But he's also of no political or ethical importance to Azure, which according to KQ6, is all he cares about.
If we are to assume that the Winged Ones' ethics are Greco-Roman as is the rest of their culture, then hospitality to visitors IS OF HUGE ETHICAL IMPORTANCE... that's pretty much THE overarching theme of the Odyssey. ::)
Quote from: Fierce Deity on August 07, 2010, 08:29:35 PMStill, in the cutscene in KQ6, he obviously declined Alhazred's orders to help Alexander (because he saved his daughter). So I would think he would be a bit more generous towards Alexander this time around with him being King.
He considered it a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" situation. After Alexander saves his daughter, he tells him in no uncertain terms that he will obey Alhazred's orders to kill Alexander if he returns to the city after seeing the Oracle. So it seems to me that the only reason he disobeyed Alhazred is because he owed Alexander a debt. Afterwards, he owed him nothing (in his eyes).
Quote from: Delling on August 07, 2010, 08:34:29 PMAlhazred had demonstrated a willingness and ability to kill the well-defended in their sleep. Alexander and his extended family have not. :P
While this is true, it is also an unknown at the time of the KQVI cutscene. Azure is still under the assumption that Alhazred is clean, and that Cassima's parents died of grief.
Quote from: Delling on August 07, 2010, 08:34:29 PMQuote from: KQ5Fan on August 07, 2010, 04:50:15 PM
But he's also of no political or ethical importance to Azure, which according to KQ6, is all he cares about.
If we are to assume that the Winged Ones' ethics are Greco-Roman as is the rest of their culture, then hospitality to visitors IS OF HUGE ETHICAL IMPORTANCE... that's pretty much THE overarching theme of the Odyssey. ::)
I think, then, that it's safe to assume that the Winged Ones' ethics are not Greco-Roman, at least when the visitors are "lowly" humans.
Quote from: Enchantermon on August 07, 2010, 09:14:17 PM
Quote from: Fierce Deity on August 07, 2010, 08:29:35 PMStill, in the cutscene in KQ6, he obviously declined Alhazred's orders to help Alexander (because he saved his daughter). So I would think he would be a bit more generous towards Alexander this time around with him being King.
He considered it a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" situation. After Alexander saves his daughter, he tells him in no uncertain terms that he will obey Alhazred's orders to kill Alexander if he returns to the city after seeing the Oracle. So it seems to me that the only reason he disobeyed Alhazred is because he owed Alexander a debt. Afterwards, he owed him nothing (in his eyes).
I know the circumstances of their deal, but the deal was made when Alexander was still a "stranger in a strange land". I'm just saying he has grown accustomed to the traditions of all five isles, I would assume. He did become King after all. It is also assumed that he returned the treasures of all of the isles back to their rightful places. If Azure would be so loyal to Alhazred (who was not even the official ruler at the time) to obey his commands after Alexander had left the Oracle, why wouldn't he want to show some form of concern to Alexander's predicament.
I liked your first answer about how Azure wasn't directly ordered to help Alexander, but I'm just arguing that after everything Alexander did for the Winged Ones (in retrospect) and being the King of the Isles on top of that would deserve him a little respect from Azure (even if Alex is a lowly human). Obviously, Ariel was able to see it in Episode 1's cutscene, but Azure seemed like he was disregarding the fact that Alexander was his King. He was only focused on the "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" philosophy from when Alexander was a stranger. It's like it didn't even occur to him that Alexander was his superior. It would have been more appropriate if he actually said, "Nobody ordered me to help him."
I'm not sure anybody actually even could "order" Azure to do anything, probably just depends on his mood at the time you meet up with him and whether he feels like he needs help with anything. As he points out, humans can't even reach his city, so what could really happen to him if he let the king die?
It seems everyone doesn't care and is out for themselves, really. Hassan, Azure, etc.
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on August 07, 2010, 10:44:52 PM
It seems everyone doesn't care and is out for themselves, really. Hassan, Azure, etc.
I got that feeling too. I thought Alexander was supposed to be the King that everybody loved. Maybe all of the inhabitants of the Green Isles are cowards and only do what they're told when they're leader is a sociopathic murderer.
Well, for Hassan specifically, he does still need to stay in business. He's a helpful guy, but if he just starts carting Graham around he's losing the money he'd get from ferrying paying passengers. If the President's dad came to a restaurant you owned would you let him eat for free?
Quote from: wilco64256 on August 07, 2010, 11:33:34 PM
Well, for Hassan specifically, he does still need to stay in business. He's a helpful guy, but if he just starts carting Graham around he's losing the money he'd get from ferrying paying passengers. If the President's dad came to a restaurant you owned would you let him eat for free?
If it was a President I voted for, probably. I'd be losing money, but it's more of a sign of loyalty and respect. Regardless, it would be hard for Hassan, because he only has one ship for one customer. So not only would he lose money, but he'd lose an opportunity for real business. Even with a free meal for the President, the restaurant could still cater to multiple patrons.
Quote from: Fierce Deity on August 08, 2010, 12:18:06 AM
If it was a President I voted for, probably.
Ah, but we are dealing in kings, and as we all know....
King Arthur: I am your king.
Woman: Well I didn't vote for you.
King Arthur: You don't vote for kings.
Woman: Well how'd you become king then?
[Angelic music plays... ]
King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king.
Dennis: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
;D
Azure is...well, a jerk. He's loyal to no one but himself, He seemed to "like" (or tolerate) Caliphim and Allaria's reign, and he wasn't keen on the vizier, but no one was.
It does makes me wonder why the Sacred Mountain isle even keeps ties with the rest of the isles. If the Winged Ones truly believe themselves "above and apart" from all land-walkers, then why bother with being part of the kingdom? Why not withdraw and leave the land-walkers to their own devices? Are they perhaps dependent on the other isles for things like food or trade?
There's also the matter that the Isles still aren't all that stable. Alhazred, like many a BCS operative, had a long time to do a ton of damage. Alex may have uncovered the missing treasures, but that doesn't mean that more bad blood hasn't been planted or passed around the isles. If all Alhazred had to do was some common theft, there were already problems. Chances are the honeymoon's over, and it's back to squabbling.
Caliphim and Allaria had their hands full with feuds, I'm betting. There's also the idea that Alex is just getting on his feet as king. He's quite young (21), was most definitely not raised as a monarch, and was handed quite the mess.
Quote from: KatieHal on August 08, 2010, 07:54:27 AM
Quote from: Fierce Deity on August 08, 2010, 12:18:06 AM
If it was a President I voted for, probably.
Ah, but we are dealing in kings, and as we all know....
King Arthur: I am your king.
Woman: Well I didn't vote for you.
King Arthur: You don't vote for kings.
Woman: Well how'd you become king then?
[Angelic music plays... ]
King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king.
Dennis: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
;D
XB
Very well put. I was just giving Weldon a hard time for his President-restaurant comparison, but I have no rebuttal for THAT. ;D
(Posted on: August 08, 2010, 10:34:57 AM)
Quote from: Allronix on August 08, 2010, 08:32:17 AM
Azure is...well, a jerk. He's loyal to no one but himself, He seemed to "like" (or tolerate) Caliphim and Allaria's reign, and he wasn't keen on the vizier, but no one was.
It does makes me wonder why the Sacred Mountain isle even keeps ties with the rest of the isles. If the Winged Ones truly believe themselves "above and apart" from all land-walkers, then why bother with being part of the kingdom? Why not withdraw and leave the land-walkers to their own devices? Are they perhaps dependent on the other isles for things like food or trade?
It's probably more based around tradition. The Green Isles have always been that way most likely because the isles are so close together. There was even a Magic Map that was 'programmed' to teleport people to the Isle of the Sacred Mountain. Hence, the way the Winged Ones retracted from the land-walkers ordeals would lie more with the height in which they built their city. I'm sure Azure wasn't betting on a stranger solving the Cliffs of Logic (which weren't really that hard with the majority of the solutions being related to flying and going up). So the broken link that once kept the Winged Ones and the land-walkers apart was then bridged again by Alexander. The Winged Ones could break apart from the other Isles from a political standpoint, but like I said, the Isles are so close together, it'd be like trying to disown your Siamese twin.
All I'm saying is from the cutscene I saw in KQ6, Azure was actually honoring Alhazred's orders (albeit, after Alexander left the Oracle) when Alhazred wasn't even King yet. If Azure was so "high and mighty" above all humans, why would he even consider to listen to Alhazred's order. He wasn't technically his leader yet. But when Alexander did so much for the Isles and reunited the bonds that were once broken, Azure still seems to not trust Alexander even from the political standpoint (not ethical). Though, like I said, I like this personality that Azure has in TSL. It's funny and fitting. I'm more thrown off from the cutscene in KQ6 than I am the cutscene from TSL (despite KQ6 being chronologically canonical).
Quote from: KatieHal on August 08, 2010, 07:54:27 AM
Ah, but we are dealing in kings, and as we all know....
King Arthur: I am your king.
Woman: Well I didn't vote for you.
King Arthur: You don't vote for kings.
Woman: Well how'd you become king then?
[Angelic music plays... ]
King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king.
Dennis: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
;D
Nice!
Quote from: Fierce Deity on August 08, 2010, 08:48:17 AMAll I'm saying is from the cutscene I saw in KQ6, Azure was actually honoring Alhazred's orders (albeit, after Alexander left the Oracle) when Alhazred wasn't even King yet. If Azure was so "high and mighty" above all humans, why would he even consider to listen to Alhazred's order. He wasn't technically his leader yet.
With the King and Queen dead and Cassima "sequestered in mourning," Alhazred had taken on the responsibilities of the kingdom as is his duty as Vizier. So even though he wasn't King yet, he was the one in charge and Azure did have to do as was requested of him.
Quote from: Fierce Deity on August 08, 2010, 08:48:17 AMBut when Alexander did so much for the Isles and reunited the bonds that were once broken, Azure still seems to not trust Alexander even from the political standpoint (not ethical).
What brings you to this conclusion? I don't hear anything in that conversation that suggests Azure distrusting Alexander as King. He just doesn't like humans; King, Vizier or otherwise.
Quote from: Fierce Deity on August 07, 2010, 10:20:24 PMI liked your first answer about how Azure wasn't directly ordered to help Alexander, but I'm just arguing that after everything Alexander did for the Winged Ones (in retrospect) and being the King of the Isles on top of that would deserve him a little respect from Azure (even if Alex is a lowly human).
As far as what Alexander did for Azure and Ariel, Azure dismisses that because Alexander was rewarded for what he did (he says as much in the cutscene). The King part, again, only seems to matter to him if orders are being given. Other than that, as I said previsously, Azure probably doesn't care one way or the other about the King, as he would probably much rather take care of the island himself and not be reigned over.
Quote from: Allronix on August 08, 2010, 08:32:17 AMWhy not withdraw and leave the land-walkers to their own devices? Are they perhaps dependent on the other isles for things like food or trade?
More than likely, yes. Remember, they have a very valuable commodity; mint. It only grows on the Isle of the Sacred Mountain. That makes them quite important and gives them an advantage in trade.
Quote from: Enchantermon on August 08, 2010, 11:04:55 PM
With the King and Queen dead and Cassima "sequestered in mourning," Alhazred had taken on the responsibilities of the kingdom as is his duty as Vizier. So even though he wasn't King yet, he was the one in charge and Azure did have to do as was requested of him.
Then I wonder as to why Captain Saladin had disregarded Alhazred's orders at the wedding ceremony by saying, "You aren't King yet!" Azure doesn't have to do as was requested of him. He was ordered to kill Alexander, and he let him go because Alexander helped him. That, in fact, was the exact opposite of what Alhazred wanted. It doesn't have to do with Azure's actions, it was how he referred to Alhazred as the ruler of the Crown and then referred to Alexander as if he was beneath him.
Quote from: Enchantermon on August 08, 2010, 11:04:55 PM
What brings you to this conclusion? I don't hear anything in that conversation that suggests Azure distrusting Alexander as King. He just doesn't like humans; King, Vizier or otherwise.
His discrimination against humans is duly noted, but I don't see why he would refer to Alexander as 'that man who fulfilled one prophecy, so shouldn't be given another favor'. Even Ariel convinced Azure to help Graham by saying, "Alexander fulfilled one prophecy, he could surely fulfill another." I'm just curious as to why in the entire conversation, Azure didn't seem to recognize Alexander as anything more than 'that prophecy kid'. Maybe not distrusting, but surely out of place. If Alexander was Azure's King, wouldn't he at least regard him as "The King", and not 'that prophecy that he fulfilled way back in the day and saved my daughter, and etc., etc., etc...'?
Quote from: Fierce Deity on August 08, 2010, 11:25:44 PMThen I wonder as to why Captain Saladin had disregarded Alhazred's orders at the wedding ceremony by saying, "You aren't King yet!"
Because "Cassima" was present and no longer sequestered, thus her decision would overrule Alhazred's as she is the heiress to the throne.
Quote from: Fierce Deity on August 08, 2010, 11:25:44 PMAzure doesn't have to do as was requested of him. He was ordered to kill Alexander, and he let him go because Alexander helped him. That, in fact, was the exact opposite of what Alhazred wanted.
True. However, Alexander deserved repayment for his rescuing Azure and Ariel's daughter.
Quote from: Fierce Deity on August 08, 2010, 11:25:44 PMIt doesn't have to do with Azure's actions, it was how he referred to Alhazred as the ruler of the Crown and then referred to Alexander as if he was beneath him.
What about this: if Alhazred was lying on his deathbed, or overtaken by some curse, would Azure help him?
Quote from: Fierce Deity on August 08, 2010, 11:25:44 PMIf Alexander was Azure's King, wouldn't he at least regard him as "The King", and not 'that prophecy that he fulfilled way back in the day and saved my daughter, and etc., etc., etc...'?
Hmm. This seems to be delving more into word choice. Just because he didn't say that Alexander was King doesn't mean that he doesn't recognize him as such (or at least recognize his authority as much as he did Alhazred's).
Re: Saladin at the wedding and reminding Alhazred he wasn't King yet, you can't forget that Alexander had also just given Saladin rather damning evidence that the Vizier was a traitor and guilty of some serious crimes. But then regardless of this, he deferred to "Cassima's" wishes and was about to kill Alex anyways when she ordered him to do so until the real King and Queen showed up.
I'd say the fact that Alhazred wasn't someone anyone trusted in KQ6 is a factor in how closely his orders were followed (or not). He was simply the only authority figure that they had at all, but no one really seemed to trust his orders or him; so they weren't driven by the loyalty and trust they might've had for some other ruler. They were more willing to ignore the orders if given good reason (in this case, saving Celeste and killing the minotaur, thus fulfilling a prophecy).
So basically, IMO, Azure didn't like Alhazred, doesn't like humans a whole lot to begin with, and trusts more in the prophecies of his race than the orders given by he Vizier. So he answered to the authority he respected in the end: the prophecy.
Quote from: KatieHal on August 09, 2010, 05:34:53 AM
Re: Saladin at the wedding and reminding Alhazred he wasn't King yet, you can't forget that Alexander had also just given Saladin rather darning evidence that the Vizier was a traitor and guilty of some serious crimes. But then regardless of this, he deferred to "Cassima's" wishes and was about to kill Alex anyways when she ordered him to do so until the real King and Queen showed up.
I'd say the fact that Alhazred wasn't someone anyone trusted in KQ6 is a factor in how closely his orders were followed (or not). He was simply the only authority figure that they had at all, but no one really seemed to trust his orders or him; so they weren't driven by the loyalty and trust they might've had for some other ruler. They were more willing to ignore the orders if given good reason (in this case, saving Celeste and killing the minotaur, thus fulfilling a prophecy).
So basically, IMO, Azure didn't like Alhazred, doesn't like humans a whole lot to begin with, and trusts more in the prophecies of his race than the orders given by he Vizier. So he answered to the authority he respected in the end: the prophecy.
This is understood. I'm just questioning the word choice of Azure. I understand Azure thinks less of humans and will uphold a prophecy above a faux leader. I also understand the actions that Azure took to do what he thought was right. Deep down, although pompous, Azure is a pretty nice guy. I just think that Azure and Ariel were approaching Alexander's situation as if they were outsiders. Even Graham tried to convince Hassan that he should lend assistance for the benefit of his King. Graham talked to Azure as if he was a diplomat from a foreign state.
This debate has gone on for awhile, and I find myself talking in circles. I'm willing to just drop it and agree to disagree if anybody else will do so.
It is indeed a matter that's not clear--Azure and Ariel have a superior attitude, no question there, but at the same time they're part of the Green Isles and Alex is their king. But Graham pretty much IS a foreign diplomat and has no authority in the kingdom or on their island, no matter whose father he is.
Azure's personal allegiances are unstated, it's true. In a different game or story, that might come into play, but here it's pretty much just left to your own imaginations what he really thinks. :)
Quote from: KatieHal on August 09, 2010, 10:20:54 AM
It is indeed a matter that's not clear--Azure and Ariel have a superior attitude, no question there, but at the same time they're part of the Green Isles and Alex is their king. But Graham pretty much IS a foreign diplomat and has no authority in the kingdom or on their island, no matter whose father he is.
Azure's personal allegiances are unstated, it's true. In a different game or story, that might come into play, but here it's pretty much just left to your own imaginations what he really thinks. :)
I really don't want to sound like I'm complaining though. In a previous post, I said that I liked Azure's voice actor, because he made Azure's character entertaining. When he so nonchalantly stated, "Your request is denied!", I literally laughed out loud. I had just got done playing through KQ6 again, and when Azure had stated that Alhazred was his liege, I was confused. I always thought that each island had their respective leaders, and that no one leader overruled another (that's why I never questioned TSL's cutscene before). But apparently, the ruler of the Crown also rules over the other islands. :-\
Ahh. yeah, the Green Isles overall are a kingdom ruled by the King & Queen on the Isle of the Crown; but the Isles themselves have their own leaders for smaller matters and internal governance. I usually think of it as being like the US--the States all have their own mayors & governors, but in the end they all still answer to the President.
LOL, yeah, I love that line. I also find it really funny how he's staring at his hand when you first come in. I keep thinking Azure's high and thinking, "Oh my god..my hands! They're huge!" ;D
I think what everyone is saying (but failing to say at the same time) is that the reason Azure refers to Alexander as a human who fulfilled a prophecy is because, to Azure, that holds more respect than "King".
As for Graham acting like a diplomat from a foreign state... well, that's likely because he is from a foreign state. Similarly, Azure may be bound by duty to follow Alexander's orders -- however grudgingly -- but he is not Alexander's friend and likely wouldn't care if Alexander died. In fact, for a political leader like Azure it might even be an opportunity to make himself the King of the Green Isles.
Quote from: crayauchtin on August 09, 2010, 05:00:11 PM
In fact, for a political leader like Azure it might even be an opportunity to make himself the King of the Green Isles.
Not likely. King Caliphim and Queen Allaria both died, and Alhazred became the leader. I think Azure's reasons for not caring about Alexander's death has more to do with what he said in the game. He said he'd rather not concern himself with 'human problems'. It's definitely more ethical than political. I just wondered, because if I were to talk about the President, I would acknowledge him as 'the President', not 'so-and-so who did something or other'. But when Azure was talking about Alhazred in KQ6, he said 'liege' and 'ruler of the Crown'. Now it may be because Alhazred holds no real significance to Azure, while Alexander solved the Cliffs of Logic, killed the Minotaur, and saved Celeste. I was just wondering if there was a reason that Azure was avoiding to refer to Alexander as a King. I didn't know if I was missing something, but I guess I'm just looking at it differently than everybody else. :-\
Quote from: Fierce Deity on August 09, 2010, 10:13:21 AMThis debate has gone on for awhile, and I find myself talking in circles. I'm willing to just drop it and agree to disagree if anybody else will do so.
I've found myself doing that as well.
Quote from: Fierce Deity on August 09, 2010, 05:32:34 PM
Not likely. King Caliphim and Queen Allaria both died, and Alhazred became the leader. I think Azure's reasons for not caring about Alexander's death has more to do with what he said in the game. He said he'd rather not concern himself with 'human problems'. It's definitely more ethical than political. I just wondered, because if I were to talk about the President, I would acknowledge him as 'the President', not 'so-and-so who did something or other'. But when Azure was talking about Alhazred in KQ6, he said 'liege' and 'ruler of the Crown'. Now it may be because Alhazred holds no real significance to Azure, while Alexander solved the Cliffs of Logic, killed the Minotaur, and saved Celeste. I was just wondering if there was a reason that Azure was avoiding to refer to Alexander as a King. I didn't know if I was missing something, but I guess I'm just looking at it differently than everybody else. :-\
Alhazred, as vizier, was next in line for the throne. With no "next in line" in terms of Cassima and Alexander's reign.... wouldn't someone who is already ruling an island be considered? That was just my thinking there.
Quote from: crayauchtin on August 09, 2010, 06:19:49 PM
Alhazred, as vizier, was next in line for the throne. With no "next in line" in terms of Cassima and Alexander's reign.... wouldn't someone who is already ruling an island be considered? That was just my thinking there.
You'd think so, but I haven't quite figured out the political system of the Green Isles. Not to mention, it seems like every island in itself has a different political system. What would it take to be the leader of the Isle of the Beast? You'd have to be the Beast, and there's only one Beast. So that sounds like a dictatorship. But then again, he's the only resident of the Island (aside from Beauty, who came later). The Isle of Wonder is ruled by two queens, so that would be a form of an oligarchy. The Isle of the Mists has a tribal rule. The citizens would have to belong to a clique (be a druid). The Sacred Mountain has a formal state of leadership, but they are controlled by the prophecies that Oracle construes. It would be ruled more based on faith than politics.
So clearly, the standards of leadership are different for each island, so I wouldn't be able to even begin to understand what the entire Land of the Green Isles' political system would be, much less decide how they cast a new leader.
It's strongly implied in KQ6 (if not explicitly stated) that each island is governed by its own leaders, but that all of those leaders answer to the king and queen of the Isle of the Crown, who are the high king and queen of the ENTIRE Green Isles.
Quote from: Lambonius on August 09, 2010, 08:50:20 PM
It's strongly implied in KQ6 (if not explicitly stated) that each island is governed by its own leaders, but that all of those leaders answer to the king and queen of the Isle of the Crown, who are the high king and queen of the ENTIRE Green Isles.
Arriving a little late to the discussion? Ha, no offense, but we already established how the King of the Crown rules the entire Land of the Green Isles. We were wondering what were to happen if the King died. Obviously, the vizier was 'next in line', but we were wondering where the leadership would go if Alexander and Cassima were to die (with no heir or replacement). Would the leadership pass on to one of the other isles, or would they wait for a leader to be elected for the Isle of the Crown?
I was just listing the different governments from each island. Isle of Mists is tribal, Isle of Wonders is oligarchy, Isle of Beast is dictatorship (of sorts), and Isle of the Sacred Mountain is driven by prophecy (technically the Oracle would be in charge then). But as a whole, I wouldn't be able to decide how the governments would work together if their King or Queen should die without a replacement.
Ah. So you did. ;)
Veering away from the "what would happen if Alexander and Cassima died" discussion and back towards the thread title, I thought I'd point out that Azure being bitter about having to answer to any human (high king or not) would explain both his readiness to disobey Alhazared and let Alexander go after he rescued his daughter, AND his coldness and unwillingness to help Graham save Alexander, even though Cassima, the high Queen, is still alive and well and could have issued a general order for any and all Green Isles residents to aid Graham in his quest in whatever way they could.
Quote from: Lambonius on August 09, 2010, 09:47:04 PM
Ah. So you did. ;)
Veering away from the "what would happen if Alexander and Cassima died" discussion and back towards the thread title, I thought I'd point out that Azure being bitter about having to answer to any human (high king or not) would explain both his readiness to disobey Alhazared and let Alexander go after he rescued his daughter, AND his coldness and unwillingness to help Graham save Alexander, even though Cassima, the high Queen, is still alive and well and could have issued a general order for any and all Green Isles residents to aid Graham in his quest in whatever way they could.
I didn't even think of that. Cassima actually could make that order, couldn't she? But that would make it way too easy. Then you'd just have to sail to each isle and be back home in time for dinner. :P
There's a lot more to Azure than just prophecies I'm sure. He has helped Alexander twice now (KQ6 and TSL). Maybe his hate for humans will wane in time (or maybe not). I'm hoping to see more of him in the other episodes though.
I'm pretty certain we will be seeing more of Azure and the Winged Ones. Episode 1 seemed to hint at that pretty strongly. :)
In every case where Azure has "helped" Alexander, it has always been reluctantly, and always at the pressing of his wife. For a guy who seems to be on such a power trip, I find it a little ironic that his wife seems to perpetually have him by the balls. But then, I suppose that's just the way of most marriages now isn't it? ;)
Yup, sure seems like it. But that's no surprise. Just look at how the two Queens of the Isle of Wonder bicker and fight constantly. It's because there's no man to 'give in' to their arguments. Women are truly unstoppable forces to be reckoned with. :-\
You know the queens' are sisters according to KQ6... its a bit of sibling rivalry, :p...
QuoteI'm sure Azure wasn't betting on a stranger solving the Cliffs of Logic (which weren't really that hard with the majority of the solutions being related to flying and going up)
All the Winged Ones seem a bit miffed that they weren't the ones that solved it. It hadn't been solved in centuries, and apparently hadn't been solved since the times of the Ancient Ones who built them in the first place.
Shortly before Derek visited the islands the Minotor moved in and the Oracle made her prophecy that only the one who could solve the cliffs would defeat the minotaur. That must have been a harsh blow to them, since none of them could figure out the answer to the cliffs.
Sad considering how the puzzles should have been far easier for any Winged One to solve than any human.
And considering that realistically, Alex was just guessing since he'd never read the Guidebook himself!
Quote from: Baggins on August 10, 2010, 10:49:13 AM
All the Winged Ones seem a bit miffed that they weren't the ones that solved it. It hadn't been solved in centuries, and apparently hadn't been solved since the times of the Ancient Ones who built them in the first place.
Why would the Ancient Ones need to solve the Cliffs when they can easily fly over them? They wouldn't need to know the solution, so there's no real reason for them to be pissed about it. ;)
Hehe, I think they just like having something to feel irritated about ;)
Quote from: Lambonius on August 10, 2010, 10:58:58 AM
Quote from: Baggins on August 10, 2010, 10:49:13 AM
All the Winged Ones seem a bit miffed that they weren't the ones that solved it. It hadn't been solved in centuries, and apparently hadn't been solved since the times of the Ancient Ones who built them in the first place.
Why would the Ancient Ones need to solve the Cliffs when they can easily fly over them? They wouldn't need to know the solution, so there's no real reason for them to be pissed about it. ;)
Except for the prophecy stating that only the one who solved the cliffs could defeat the minotaur.
QuoteAnd considering that realistically, Alex was just guessing since he'd never read the Guidebook himself!
Actually he had apparently had read guidebook, if you look around the screens around the cliff, the narrator nods that Alex "should remember the clues from the guidebook" or some such thing.
In the Companion its said that Derek gave him a copy of the guidebook before he went to the Green Isles, but it was lost during the shipwreck, but he had already read it.
How else do you think he would have figured out the alphabet puzzles? or the brothers puzzle? Or any of the ones that require any knowledge of Ancient Ones logic.
QuoteWhy would the Ancient Ones need to solve the Cliffs when they can easily fly over them? They wouldn't need to know the solution, so there's no real reason for them to be pissed about it.
The Ancient Ones didn't fly, they were ground walkers. Although they may have had flying machines.
As its stated in the guidebook the cliffs were a way to defend their civilization.
The Winged Ones on the other hand, where the ones with wings. It was also the Winged Ones Oracle that made that prophecy less than half a century before KQ6. They couldn't stop the minotaur unless that prophecy was fulfilled.
Just listen to the Winged Ones guard's comment when he discovers Alexander solved the puzzle, and the Winged Ones didn't.
Quote from: wilco64256 on August 10, 2010, 11:01:56 AM
Quote from: Lambonius on August 10, 2010, 10:58:58 AM
Quote from: Baggins on August 10, 2010, 10:49:13 AM
All the Winged Ones seem a bit miffed that they weren't the ones that solved it. It hadn't been solved in centuries, and apparently hadn't been solved since the times of the Ancient Ones who built them in the first place.
Why would the Ancient Ones need to solve the Cliffs when they can easily fly over them? They wouldn't need to know the solution, so there's no real reason for them to be pissed about it. ;)
Except for the prophecy stating that only the one who solved the cliffs could defeat the minotaur.
Yeah - I'll bet Azure would say one of the Winged Ones
could have solved it if they had really wanted to, though. :P
Just like he claimed that there many Winged Ones who would be willing to brave the catacombs to defeat the minotaur, yet most seem to be cowards... :p
However, he does say, no one has been able to solve them in centuries :p...
His guard is even more stuck up than him... it was the guard that alluded that only Winged Ones would be able to solve it, LOL.
Oops--I wasn't reading that closely enough. My eyes saw "Ancient Ones" and my mind read "Winged Ones." :P I hadn't realized there was a separate race that built the cliffs--I had assumed the Winged Ones built them to keep human travelers out of their city.
Does it say somewhere that the Ancient Ones aren't winged? Just curious.
The Guidebook has all that information and then some about the Ancient Ones.
Azure just likes to be begged. After all, he allows Graham, a complete foreigner, and someone who hasn't done anything for them yet to see the mighty Oracle. just on the idea that Alex might, he just might, be involved with another prophecy. Allowing someone to see the Great Oracle is something to not be taken lightly, and an honor to anyone allowed to do so. Something that the Winged Ones take quite seriously.
He just wasn't ready to bow down to humans right away. Here was this man, dressed like a commoner, dragged by his guard into his throne room. He wasn't going to be open arms about it, but the fact that, at the end, regardless of Ariel's intervention, he does let Graham visit the oracle, clearly shows where his allegiance lies. And the fact that he could consider Alexander great enough to fulfill another prophecy also shows how high he thinks of Alex, even if he doesn't openly show it, and shows no respect by not attending his sister's wedding in his castle.
He's just a very complex character. I may say that on the writing side, that particular cutscene is one of my fav moments in the game, because of the complexity of the characters playing there and how it all came together. I'm very happy with it.
Quote from: Baggins on August 10, 2010, 11:29:57 AM
The Guidebook has all that information and then some about the Ancient Ones.
If I recall correctly, the Guidebook says that the Ancient Ones were
theoretically ground walkers with technology or magic that allowed them to fly, but it also insinuates that they had lighter bones and probably evolved wings and became the Winged Ones.
Quote from: Cez on August 10, 2010, 12:08:13 PM
Azure just likes to be begged. After all, he allows Graham, a complete foreigner, and someone who hasn't done anything for them yet to see the mighty Oracle. just on the idea that Alex might, he just might, be involved with another prophecy. Allowing someone to see the Great Oracle is something to not be taken lightly, and an honor to anyone allowed to do so. Something that the Winged Ones take quite seriously.
He just wasn't ready to bow down to humans right away. Here was this man, dressed like a commoner, dragged by his guard into his throne room. He wasn't going to be open arms about it, but the fact that, at the end, regardless of Ariel's intervention, he does let Graham visit the oracle, clearly shows where his allegiance lies. And the fact that he could consider Alexander great enough to fulfill another prophecy also shows how high he thinks of Alex, even if he doesn't openly show it, and shows no respect by not attending his sister's wedding in his castle.
He's just a very complex character. I may say that on the writing side, that particular cutscene is one of my fav moments in the game, because of the complexity of the characters playing there and how it all came together. I'm very happy with it.
That makes a lot of sense. I was just thinking about how Azure is a complex character. That's one of the reasons why I like him so much. I was just looking to elaborate on the situation by bringing up a discussion.
Another thing that I noticed when I went through the KQ6 cutscene again was Azure saying that he has no love for Alhazred's orders, but that he only listens to him because Cassima wants to marry him. So clearly he was affected by the false rumors as well, and his loyalty lies with Cassima (the true heir to the royal family). He also said that when Alhazred told him to dispose of any trespassers, he didn't specify how to do so, so Azure decided to "dispose" of Alexander by putting him in the catacombs (to save his daughter). Thus fulfilling the orders that Alhazred bestowed upon him and giving Alexander the chance to fulfill the prophecy.
Complex indeed, but entertaining all the same. ;D
Azure would be even more interesting if this game were as gritty as the book series Song of Ice & Fire. Hoo boy!
QuoteIf I recall correctly, the Guidebook says that the Ancient Ones were theoretically ground walkers with technology or magic that allowed them to fly, but it also insinuates that they had lighter bones and probably evolved wings and became the Winged Ones.
Actually, not "evolved'" from the Ancient Ones, but rather, that the ancient ones created a winged race, that evolved into the Winged Ones. The ancient ones were pretty advanced technologically and scientifically apparently. They apparently knew how to create life.
The Ancient Ones themselves died off.
Also the Guidebook seems to imply more scientific knowlege rather than magic (winged ones probably developed there disdain for magic from the Ancient Ones). The ancient ones were also apparently the ones that invented the modern "alphabet", A-Z (used all over the world and in Daventry).
The Winged Ones consider them superior to their race (because they believed they had learned to fly without wings), and according to the Guidebook are very protective of the antiquity and artifacts from the Ancient Ones. Do you understand destroying the cliffs of logic to them would be like someone going out and taking a sledge hammer to the Rosetta Stone? The Winged Ones treated Ancient Ones archaelogical artifacts with extreme reverence and almost religious devotion. We are told in the guidebook that they "fiercely guard the artifacts". We are told that cliffs of logic are one of these 'artifacts'
Just look how upset archaelogists got when the Buddhas of Bamyan were destroyed by the Taliban :p...
Plus the fact there were still alot of secrets to be had, in learning the technology behind the cliffs, in a non-destructive way, and applying it for other uses :p...
Good point, Baggins. Any explanation, Kate?
I am an archaeologist, so it its something like this causes me extreme pain, LOL.
Remember that scene in Last Crusade, when Henry Jones, Sr, breaks a Ming Vase over Indy's head? Then nearly has a heart attack? Ya, that's how we feel about destruction of antiquity :p...
Seriously its a big island they could have built stair case anywhere, without having to take the proverbial bull dozers to a World Heritage site...
I thought it had been established the the original Cliffs from KQ6 were on the south side of the island, and that the newly-built stairway was on the North side in TSL?
Well, its true tht the game designers didn't pay attention to the KQ6 source material and put the former "cliffs of logic"'s location on the north side of the island. It was a mistake.
But we are told they destroyed the Cliffs of Logic to make room for this staircase. If they were to say cut that line from the game however, then just have the staircase be something that was built in an area that was not destructive to any Ancient Ones archaeological sites (which we are told Winged Ones fiercly guard) there would be no issue ;) (other than Graham's ability to swim in the Dangerous Currents).
That would be easier, but it's unfortunately a little too late to correct it in such a way.
So instead, I'll say the pertinent parts of the Cliffs of Logic have been moved into a Winged One museum of Ancient Ones Artifacts.
Quote from: Baggins on August 10, 2010, 02:26:02 PM
Well, its true tht the game designers didn't pay attention to the KQ6 source material
Baggins, while we may have missed minor details here and there, do not accuse us of paying no attention at all to the source material. We have in fact paid quite a lot of attention to it. We've had ridiculously stupid arguments over tiny details and making them try to fit a continuity that is shaky at best in many places more times than I can say. The game has had an
incredible amount of attention paid to the details, especially the ones from KQ6, and I think that's
very obvious.
We've put
eight years of effort into making this fit in with the old games. Is it perfect? No. Did we sometimes miss things? Yes. Do I or any other member of this team appreciate having someone tell us because we missed those few small details that we "didn't pay attention [...] to the source material"? No. So while I understand you enjoy pointing these things out, I don't appreciate having that effort that I and the rest of the team have put into this being insulted like that.
QuoteBaggins, while we may have missed minor details here and there, do not accuse us of paying no attention at all to the source material.
I'm only referring to the fact that you missed the directions that were stated in the game, and that it was a mistake. You stated as such a few months back :).
However, I do apologize for any misunderstanding I may have caused.
Thank you.
My intention for making this thread was to discuss a connection between KQ6 and TSL (mainly Azure's character, but any connections would be welcome), but in no way would I want to point blame towards Phoenix Online for any inconsistencies. Especially since with inconsistencies, there can be valid explanations. A lot has happened between KQ6 and TSL (as the new Four Winds newsletter may have suggested). So try to keep the discussion on-topic and please be respectful to other users, the Phoenix Online team included. Thank you. :)
The main reason I can think of why Azure is loyal to the crown and the royal family (and by extension Alhazared when he was supposed to marry Cassima) would have to be some economical/political reason. The Isle of the Sacred Mountain must not be self-sufficient. They need the other islands for trade of whatever it is they export (peppermint I guess) in order to function as a society. There may also be an issue of protection. Their guards look tough, but maybe there aren't enough to adequately protect the island and therefore they need to rely on the crown (and thereby free up their population to study art and other high pursuits since they see themselves as more enlightened than anyone else.)
As for why Azure wouldn't have a claim to the throne of the Green Isles, I think it's more the fact that odds are he wouldn't really want the job. Can you imagine a narcissistic jerk like Azure dealing with mundane matters of state, trying to calm the squabbling Queens (or having anything whatsoever to do with the Isle of Wonder) or having to deal with humans as meaningful subjects with concerns worthy of consideration? It would drive him insane. As self-important as Azure is, I really doubt he'd want the job as King. He'd realize he wasn't suited to it because it was too much of a headache and in no one's best interest. Really the royal family are the only ones who would want to rule. The Queens are too caught up in their own arguments, the druids too reclusive and unwilling to leave their island, and the beast shows no inclination to rule since becoming human. So it doesn't seem there really is anyone with the motivation or desire to challenge the royal family and by extension Alhazared when he stepped up to marry Cassima and take over. My guess is that from a political standpoint, it would be more likely for an island to break away from the union of the Green Isles rather than the leader of that island lobby to become the king of the Green Isles.
On a side note I can't believe that I just spent two paragraphs reading socio-political implications into leadership of the Green Isles. I am such a nerd...
Quote from: Damar on August 10, 2010, 08:00:55 PM
On a side note I can't believe that I just spent two paragraphs reading socio-political implications into leadership of the Green Isles. I am such a nerd...
You might not be the only one... ::)