POStudios Forum

The Royal Archives => Fan Feedback => Topic started by: snabbott on September 20, 2010, 09:39:50 AM

Title: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: snabbott on September 20, 2010, 09:39:50 AM
I hope this isn't a bad idea.

I believe the rest of the team would agree with me on this. We welcome construcitve criticism (but not personal attacks or pointless arguing).

A few things to keep in mind:

1. Nobody is calling this an official King's Quest sequel. This is the vision of a group of people who have worked very hard to bring this to you. We hope you like it, but we also realize that we will never please everyone.

2. There are a lot of things that just can't be changed at this point. Even if we agree that you have a good idea, chances are that it won't be implemented. However, we were able to incorporate a few small suggestions regarding Episode 1, so you never know.

3. ABSOLUTELY NO personal attacks against the team or other forum members. Let's keep it polite, ok? I don't want the moderators to have to lock this thread.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on September 20, 2010, 10:01:13 AM
Good thread idea, good preface. My polite suggestions:

1. the ability to explore other islands even if you can't achieve anything there (ie. exploring IoB in Episodes 1-2). Maybe this could be done via a patch.

2. less sarcasm/mocking from the narrator

3. less facial closeups during conversation

4. middle-click to automatically return to walk icon

I have attempted to give workable criticism. These are my only gripes with an otherwise perfect game.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: MangoMercury on September 20, 2010, 10:22:38 AM
I think it's a great idea to have a constructive feedback thread, definitely.  After what happened with the other thread (which shows why people shouldn't just "hate"), it's good to have an objective thread.

The only couple of things that I wasn't overly sure on was the usage of the word "sexy" in Episode 2 - it felt a bit "out of character" for a King's Quest game, even if the line came from the Black Widow.  That, and the whole Roberta Easter Egg sounded kind of sarcastic (which ties in with Mister Doon's second point), which could just be my interpretation, but I hope Roberta will take it the right way if she sees it.  I wouldn't want the creator of King's Quest to no longer support TSL.

Otherwise, this game is absolutely great so far; Episode 2 absolutely blew me away, and I really cannot wait until Episode 3 (especially if it explains why the character at the end of Episode 2 is the way they are now).
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on September 20, 2010, 10:23:56 AM
I did like the Roberta easter egg, but I had to watch it twice because I didn't really get it the first time - which shows that it could be misunderstood.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: atec123 on September 20, 2010, 10:24:53 AM
I did like the Roberta easter egg, but I had to watch it twice because I didn't really get it the first time - which shows that it could be misunderstood.
ZOMG!  EESTUR EGG?  WARE?

I haven't found it!

oh and great thread idea.  nothing to contribute ATM though.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Big C from Cauney island on September 20, 2010, 10:25:14 AM
Its so hard to judge a full game when the full hasn't been released.  As far as episode 2 and critique, the only thing that comes to mind is more complicated puzzles. I talked about this somewhere else as well.  The puzzles were OK, I'm in this more for the story. But having something BIG like cliffs of logic, that one huge stump. But again, I havent played future episodes, and with episodic release you cant see the full game. For all I know there is more waiting. Plus, when you play the game as a whole, it could make a huge difference.

Again, episode 2 did have puzzles, and I did get stumped at isle of wonder for a while and some with the sea nymphs.  As far as episode 2 gos, I would say that the coin bag is used a lot. I really wouldn't use it any more in future episodes. What would be cool is to find another way to get items that would usually require gold, almost more into trading like in the pawn shop, or just some other way. Maybe having the vendors sending you on miniquests, indirectly of course. They might mention something in conversation about something they want, then you got to go figure out were and how to get it. This could lead to this separate adventures that really add to depth.

  Also, Cassimas necklace and the water shooter placement seemed kind of random.  I would have put the water shooter in a cabinet, in the kitchen perhaps, just a way to make me search for it.  And Cassimas necklace, I probably would have made it Valanices. Since she was so distraught, it could have fallen off her in her madness and been left maybe outside the room. Then graham could have wondered "Valanices earring? hmmm.." and that would set it up better. Then the player would think what happened to Valanice?  It is more believable in this way then cassima leaving a full necklace on the ground,considering it wasnt there in the first episode.    

   The Isle of wonder gate was a good puzzle. I got stumped for a while on that. It was kind of a shout out to the witch in KQ5 and the emeralds. Very nicely done.  With the sea nymphs, maybe there could have been a seen where they give you the ability to breathe underwater and you go search for the bag. Again, a miniquest, multi-step problem, kind of like lollote in kq4 sending you out.

In total, I loved it. I actually wrote a review in another thread. Episode 2 definitely stepped it up a notch. The changes made did make a huge difference. Never had problems in general, but wow. It's good.

I am happy to contribute to this project in my own way, and I think feedback is essential for any project.
Man, now I've got half a million ideas in my head...... This was really the only thing close to a criticism I could give, because I was blown away by the atmosphere of the game, it was really brought alive.

So yea, in conclusion, that's it.  More of the multi-step puzzles or mini-quests. But again, you guys have played the FULL game. I have not. For all I know, this is all waiting around the corner.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on September 20, 2010, 10:28:06 AM
Also, Cassimas necklace and the water shooter placement seemed kind of random.  I would have put the water shooter in a cabinet, in the kitchen perhaps, just a way to make me search for it...The Isle of wonder gate was a good puzzle. I got stumped for a while on that. It was kind of a shout out to the witch in KQ5 and the emeralds...In total, I loved it.

I agree with everything here. I was thinking that the spray bottle could've been in the kitchen, where the serving women reside in KQVI.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on September 20, 2010, 10:31:23 AM
Re: doon's first point: I said somewhere else, I forget where, but when we split the episodes we built each around a particular island as a kind of theme to each of them. This episode was the Isle of Wonder, for example. As more islands open up, they stay open, so you will get to do more wandering as the game progresses. :)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: snabbott on September 20, 2010, 10:42:23 AM
Good thread idea, good preface. My polite suggestions:

1. the ability to explore other islands even if you can't achieve anything there (ie. exploring IoB in Episodes 1-2). Maybe this could be done via a patch.
Yeah, like Katie said, this was needed to keep the episodes more focused. If you could explore everywhere, it would leave that much less for the other episodes. Really, I view this as a necessary evil of the episodic release format. When we first started testing, the game was a lot more open. However, I think without the episodic format, the game may never have been released - certainly not this soon.

I kind of agree about the placement of the necklace. It was originally somewhere else that you can't go in Episode 2. I think the idea is that Cassima is also pretty distraught, though.
She was looking at the portrait of her and Alexander, was overcome with grief, and dropped the necklace without noticing.

The placement of the sprayer was originally a lot more random. It at least makes sense where it is.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Sousuke on September 20, 2010, 11:18:18 AM
I agree with most of the suggestions stated so far, as you'll see below. The music is very well done. It's really neat to see a full 3D KQ that's true to the 1-6 style, not MoE. Some stuff I noticed:

Maybe it's my video card but I noticed a couple graphics glitches in the town square area. One which looked like the ground and one of the buildings were too close to each other, so it was kind of a fuzzy effect of both textures trying to show at the same time. It looks like a problem I had back when I made UT levels and wanted to bury one brush into another but the adjacent surfaces were too close, if so that's easy to fix. The other thing I noticed was a sky blue area on the ground between/behind Ali's books and the wall.

I was a little disappointed that the pile of books area that bookworm used to be in, and the swamp with bump on a log and stick in the mud weren't in the game. I can understand that you guys had to cut a lot of stuff from the game though and maybe you couldn't put those two screens in since it would have been a lot of dev time. That leads to the next point.

It was great to go into chessboard land, but we only saw two screens. :( I really wanted to explore that huge castle that we saw on the first screen. Looking at this from a dev perspective, I can understand why it wasn't in the game. If you guys had had the time it would have been a great thing for additional puzzles/things for the player to do though. Just have had some of the castle open, maybe. I think that the second screen where you find the cabinet of stuff should have been designed so it looks like you're right at the castle grounds or something, since the first screen you're clearly walking towards the castle. Maybe a little area where Graham has to sneak by some guards on the castle walls without being seen. As it looks right now, that second screen doesn't look like it's near a castle so for continuity purposes it might look good to put some things in the background that make it look more like that?

For the puzzles, the one with the gate was really clever and I enjoyed it. I agree with the others that item placement could have been better for the spray bottle and necklace. They had good suggestions on where they might be relocated. The bag of coins, while making logical sense, was used too much. The sea nymphs part, I thought was too easy as they basically did everything for you and you didn't have to get some other item/solve some puzzle for them to help you. I think in a KQ game, you probably would have been sent off to fetch a bunch of other things or solve a puzzle and they'd help you once you did so.

Seeing the land of the Green Isles again in 3D is nice, but like others stated, I'd like to see more original areas that weren't in KQ6, and not in the LOTGI (like those KQ7 Etheria screenshots from years ago). Maybe there are more of these in the future episodes.

Don't take this as I hated the game or anything, I know it could be interpreted as a bunch of negative points, I really enjoyed playing it actually. It's more of a wishlist.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: koko_99_2001 on September 20, 2010, 11:24:36 AM
When Erik & I played the game a couple days ago, we saw the spray bottle on the ground. Erik's first verbal response was "why is that there?" and then said right as he finished saying that, he said "oh, I guess it was left there by whoever was watering the plants." So it did feel kinda natural to us.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on September 20, 2010, 11:31:00 AM
Actually, I'm fairly certain if you use the Eye on the bottle, it says as much, too. (before picking it up)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 20, 2010, 11:37:23 AM
The More i see and Play Ep1 & Ep2 it feels like the Whole Game is on the Green Isles, i would Assume by Chapter 2 we would go to the Isle of the Beast and then Quart way Into Ep3 we are Done with the Green Isles and we go to New Lands in Each Chapter.

There should be More Puzzles with Less Cutscenes, what People wants (Nymphs) should be taken as a Quest to get it Ourselves.

We Understand the work you guys do is Difficult and Long, but Please Please make Episode 3 Longer and Harder as if Ep1 & Ep2 Combined

Ep1 feels like the Last Chapter of Tales of Monkey Island where at the End of the Game we get the Feeling from you guys (like what the Heck we are Done with the Chapters anyway, so lets just make up a Short Pointless Ending) TSL Feels Shortend and Rushed, like lets just get it Over With so we can Continue with the Next Chapter.

These Small Places you guys Cut Out (Side of Castle - House of Beauty - Swamp and maybe Lots More) leave them so we can Explore, all you guys do is Squeeze us in a Narrow Passage with 1 Never Before seen Market that wasent in KQ6 and Push the Player to the Next Chapter as Quick as Possible.

Please Guys, you do an AWSOME JOB, but Dont push us to the Next Chapter, Make Ep1 Longer by putting Half of Ep2 in it and then put the Isle of the Beast in Ep2 so in Ep3 we can Leave the Green Isles for Good.

If you guys can put the Four Winds in the Game, then put in Ep1 a Movie like thing about the Previous KQ Games for New Comers to Understand as to what is going on, all we see is some Wedding about the Royal Family and then the Game Starts as if the New Generation is supposed to Understand as to what is going on.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 20, 2010, 11:56:07 AM
There's really nothing we can do at this point to make Episode 1 longer.  We're working on Episode 3 now and aren't going to revisit anything in Episodes 1 or 2 unless there's a serious problem that comes up that we need to address with a patch of some kind.

Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 20, 2010, 12:05:40 PM
If you guys had 8 Years with Two C&D, why dident you guys keep On working with TSL to Make Ep1 Longer, what were these Scenes and Places and Stories about that got Cut Out and Why.  ???

Remember, 8 Years with a Short Ep1, what in Heavens Name was so Big and Pointless that Needed to be Shortend with 80% Cutscenes.  ???

The Reason People Complained about Ep1 and its Shortness in asking about Ep2, now i Dont care about Ep3 since im Satisfied to Wait 3 Months for it, so Please make Ep3 More Challenging and let us Leave the Green Isles whle maybe with a Patch and a Surprise, Ep1 - Ep2 is Longer with More Scenes.  ???
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: atec123 on September 20, 2010, 12:08:36 PM
If you guys had 8 Years with Two C&D, why dident you guys keep On working with TSL to Make Ep1 Longer, what were these Scenes and Places and Stories about that got Cut Out and Why.  ???

Remember, 8 Years with a Short Ep1, what in Heavens Name was so Big and Pointless that Needed to be Shortend with 80% Cutscenes.  ???

The Reason People Complained about Ep1 and its Shortness in asking about Ep2, now i Dont care about Ep3 since im Satisfied to Wait 3 Months for it, so Please make Ep3 More Challenging and let us Leave the Green Isles whle maybe with a Patch and a Surprise, Ep1 - Ep2 is Longer with More Scenes.  ???
the original plan wasn't to have 5 episodes.  I think the total 5 episodes is only a third of the original plan.  I think part 1 would be episodes 1-5, so it wouldn't have seemed so short back then.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 20, 2010, 12:11:59 PM
I think they talked about 9 Chapters, so maybe they could Push an Episode 6.  ???

I Assumed we would Directly Start from Ep1 to Ep2, why am i still Selecting Episodes.  ???
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: snabbott on September 20, 2010, 12:12:15 PM
Yeah. A lot of these are things we discussed as a team. Unfortunately, for the most part, the content is what it is. It would take way too long to add some of these things. I don't think people realize how much work it is to create all of these scenes, characters, etc. The team are already doing a HUGE amount of work to add the content that is needed to make this a complete story. Believe me, you would not be happy with the game as it was - chapter 2 (~Episodes 2-5) pretty much ended in a cliffhanger that would never have been resolved. :(
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: atec123 on September 20, 2010, 12:14:52 PM
Quote
I Assumed we would Directly Start from Ep1 to Ep2, why am i still Selecting Episodes
Good point.  it would be better to go straight into episode 2.  or maybe have a box that comes up (before the credits even start) to ask if you want to continue to episode 2.  then it would keep going like that on all the episodes you have and show the credits at the end.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on September 20, 2010, 12:15:56 PM
A quicker transition from one episode to the next when you have a number of them installed is one thing we're looking at implementing, actually. This process has only just begun, though, so I have no concept of how difficult or easy it may be and what the likelihood of it happening is; but, we are looking into it.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 20, 2010, 12:16:15 PM
As stated before, we're not making previous episodes longer via a patch or anything else - we're only working forward at this point.

We can't tell you what things were cut because many of them relate to the plot later in the game, but most of what was cut came from gameplay that took place long after our current Episode 5 so we can't talk about that because it would spoil our storyline.

Most people seem to think Episode 2 was just about the right length - it's taken most people longer to beat Episode 2 than it takes to beat some full-length $60 top-of-the-line games these days.  We are working to add even more gameplay to later episodes as we continue to work on them, but don't expect them to start taking 20+ hours each or anything like that.

We are looking at making it easier to transition from one episode to the next (you may have noticed the continue option at the beginning) but haven't fully implemented that for jumping from the end of one to the beginning of the next one - hopefully we will have that done when we release Episode 3.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: snabbott on September 20, 2010, 12:16:23 PM
I Assumed we would Directly Start from Ep1 to Ep2, why am i still Selecting Episodes.  ???
That has been considered. I don't know whether it will be implemented or not.
the original plan wasn't to have 5 episodes.  I think the total 5 episodes is only a third of the original plan.  I think part 1 would be episodes 1-5, so it wouldn't have seemed so short back then.
Episodes 1-5 represent Chapters 1 and 2 of the original 9.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: atec123 on September 20, 2010, 12:18:13 PM
A quicker transition from one episode to the next when you have a number of them installed is one thing we're looking at implementing, actually. This process has only just begun, though, so I have no concept of how difficult or easy it may be and what the likelihood of it happening is; but, we are looking into it.
it doesn't sound like it would be that hard, but a lot of those things are more complex than one would think.  you could always have a better option to skip the credits at the end at least.  like pressing escape.  that lets you exit the game and then start it over but that is a lot of trouble.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: snabbott on September 20, 2010, 12:20:39 PM
Most people seem to think Episode 2 was just about the right length - it's taken most people longer to beat Episode 2 than it takes to beat some full-length $60 top-of-the-line games these days.  We are working to add even more gameplay to later episodes as we continue to work on them, but don't expect them to start taking 20+ hours each or anything like that.
It was mentioned at one point that all of TSL (Chapters 1 & 2/Episodes 1 - 5) was about the length of KQVI, so each episode will be substaintially shorter than that.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 20, 2010, 12:21:15 PM
A quicker transition from one episode to the next when you have a number of them installed is one thing we're looking at implementing, actually. This process has only just begun, though, so I have no concept of how difficult or easy it may be and what the likelihood of it happening is; but, we are looking into it.
it doesn't sound like it would be that hard, but a lot of those things are more complex than one would think.  you could always have a better option to skip the credits at the end at least.  like pressing escape.  that lets you exit the game and then start it over but that is a lot of trouble.

The option itself isn't all that bad, the part that takes more work is making sure the game saves everything properly and then carries it all into the next episode correctly.  We've got that down pretty well now so I think we'll be able to get the transition working just fine for the next episode's release.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: MangoMercury on September 20, 2010, 12:24:46 PM
If you guys had 8 Years with Two C&D, why dident you guys keep On working with TSL to Make Ep1 Longer

You pretty much answered your own question; when the C&D's came into effect, the team had to stop working since that was what was asked of them.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 20, 2010, 12:39:37 PM
If you guys had 8 Years with Two C&D, why dident you guys keep On working with TSL to Make Ep1 Longer

You pretty much answered your own question; when the C&D's came into effect, the team had to stop working since that was what was asked of them.

Yes a Cease and Desist means exactly that - Stop Everything.  Everything is completely put on hold.  Nothing at all could be done to further develop the project during those times, so team members would leave to work on other projects and TSL would just sit and grow cold.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Big C from Cauney island on September 20, 2010, 12:44:18 PM
The length of episode 2 was actually fine. I listened to the all the dialogues between the characters, I didnt really listen to descriptions on most things. It took me 2.5 hours. Pretty good. I remember hearing that ep3 was the longest. So, all in all, this game will probably be at least a good 10 hours, which is excellent. I can't imagine the 1500 page script for the whole project. I really think when people are able to play the whole thing it will resolve a lot of issues. But again, I understand episode  advantages.  I'm just wanting the full thing. And I DEFINITELY would not expect POS to change everything at this point. Even as is this is great.

And I didnt even think about the water bottle spraying the flowers. It does make sense, but having the necklace and bottle laying around in the castle just seemed strange.  Blame it on bad housekeeping.  But really my "critiques" are so petty. I'm fine with this game.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on September 20, 2010, 01:29:55 PM
it's taken most people longer to beat Episode 2 than it takes to beat some full-length $60 top-of-the-line games these days.  


Heh--now that's definitely an exaggeration.   ;)  It's a reasonable length for an episodic game, but let's not go being unrealistic and start comparing it to a full-length commercial adventure game.  You'd be looking at at least an 8 hour playtime for just episode 2 alone, and even that is on the short end when talking about commercial length games.  Anyway.

I have a full review in the making, but one smaller annoyance that strikes me as correctable would be the black-screen load times when moving from scene to scene.  While they aren't totally obnoxious, they do seem to be inordinantly long sometimes for a game that isn't exactly cutting edge in the graphics department.  It just seems like you guys should be able to work on some optimizations with the code and engine that would improve or even entirely eliminate these.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 20, 2010, 01:30:58 PM
What Lambonius say is True, Tales of Monkey Island had Decent Lenghtly Chapters with a Decent Price, if i Could Compare Each Episode Time Playthrough, that Game would Beat TSL by 2 Hours Extra of Gaming Fun.
Example:
TSL Ep1-Ep5 10 Hours for the Whole Game
TOMI Ep1-Ep5 20 Hours for the Whole Game
Were TOMI a bunch of Fans, or did they get Help from LucasArts to make the Game.  ???
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on September 20, 2010, 01:40:01 PM
...it's taken most people longer to beat Episode 2 than it takes to beat some full-length $60 top-of-the-line games these days.

I thought the length of Episode 2 was fine, but that's a bit exaggerated...what $60 game can you complete in 4 hours?
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 20, 2010, 01:41:34 PM
Tomb Raider Legend  ::)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KQIX-Team on September 20, 2010, 01:43:17 PM
it's taken most people longer to beat Episode 2 than it takes to beat some full-length $60 top-of-the-line games these days.
Sorry, guys. I have noting to say. I'm... speechless.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on September 20, 2010, 01:45:30 PM
TSL Ep1-Ep5 10 Hours for the Whole Game

The full length of the five episodes has yet to be determined, and I definitely imagine it'll be more than 10 hours!

In any case, let's keep this thread focused on constructive feedback and comments, okay?
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 20, 2010, 01:46:32 PM
A Small Suggestion, sometimes the Background Noises Cancels the Sound, as in its Difficult to sometimes Hear what the Characters are saying.

I tried Listening to the Joke about the Narrator on the Isle of Wonder, but those Annoying Yawning of the Oisters kept Ruining the whole thing.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Cez on September 20, 2010, 01:54:06 PM
...it's taken most people longer to beat Episode 2 than it takes to beat some full-length $60 top-of-the-line games these days.

I thought the length of Episode 2 was fine, but that's a bit exaggerated...what $60 game can you complete in 4 hours?

Uncharted? Ok, maybe 6 hours.
Heavenly Sword?
Some of the latest Tomb Raider games, as pointed out.
Metroid: Other M

To be honest, they are all 5 to 6 hour games. We've had people finished Episode 2 in 7 hours.

I'm not saying that our episode is longer, by the way. Just saying it's not completely out of the reaches of possibilities if you want to be technical about it. What I'm sure of is that when all 5 Episodes are out there, it will be definitely longer than a lot of commercial games.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Cez on September 20, 2010, 01:57:27 PM
What Lambonius say is True, Tales of Monkey Island had Decent Lenghtly Chapters with a Decent Price, if i Could Compare Each Episode Time Playthrough, that Game would Beat TSL by 2 Hours Extra of Gaming Fun.
Example:
TSL Ep1-Ep5 10 Hours for the Whole Game
TOMI Ep1-Ep5 20 Hours for the Whole Game
Were TOMI a bunch of Fans, or did they get Help from LucasArts to make the Game.  ???

Daventry, I seriously sometimes don't know where you come from with these questions. Tales of Monkey Island was made by Telltale Games, which is a established company. They were not a bunch of fans.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 20, 2010, 02:05:41 PM
it's taken most people longer to beat Episode 2 than it takes to beat some full-length $60 top-of-the-line games these days.  

Heh--now that's definitely an exaggeration.   ;)  It's a reasonable length for an episodic game, but let's not go being unrealistic and start comparing it to a full-length commercial adventure game.

I beat Uncharted, Uncharted 2, Tomb Raider: Legend, Tomb Raider: Underworld, and Metroid:Other M all in less than 6 hours the first time I played them.  The average time for Episode 2 of TSL is around 5, so that's pretty close.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: atec123 on September 20, 2010, 02:15:41 PM
What Lambonius say is True, Tales of Monkey Island had Decent Lenghtly Chapters with a Decent Price, if i Could Compare Each Episode Time Playthrough, that Game would Beat TSL by 2 Hours Extra of Gaming Fun.
Example:
TSL Ep1-Ep5 10 Hours for the Whole Game
TOMI Ep1-Ep5 20 Hours for the Whole Game
Were TOMI a bunch of Fans, or did they get Help from LucasArts to make the Game.  ???

Daventry, I seriously sometimes don't know where you come from with these questions. Tales of Monkey Island was made by Telltale Games, which is a established company. They were not a bunch of fans.
BTW, Cez... you work for telltale don't you?  I think I remember hearing that.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Cez on September 20, 2010, 02:16:59 PM
I used to. Not anymore.

Dedicated to Phoenix Online full time now.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Fierce Deity on September 20, 2010, 02:47:40 PM
it's taken most people longer to beat Episode 2 than it takes to beat some full-length $60 top-of-the-line games these days.  

Heh--now that's definitely an exaggeration.   ;)  It's a reasonable length for an episodic game, but let's not go being unrealistic and start comparing it to a full-length commercial adventure game.

I beat Uncharted, Uncharted 2, Tomb Raider: Legend, Tomb Raider: Underworld, and Metroid:Other M all in less than 6 hours the first time I played them.  The average time for Episode 2 of TSL is around 5, so that's pretty close.

This.

I think it can be said for everybody's experience with these games. Uncharted and Tomb Raider are both linear games, and they don't warrant exploration (unless you really need to get those hidden treasures, so a sparkly new achievement can appear in the upper right corner). So given the linearity of these games, I too can admit that the games can be finished within 6-8 hours. The same can be said for Halo, Gears of War, and Call of Duty. Although their known for their online multiplayer, the single-player campaigns in these games can be finished within 5 hours.

I'll agree that we may be comparing apples to oranges, but Weldon wasn't exactly lying. Most $60 games that are considered "top-of-the-line" don't provide much longevity at all. If you want to compare a game like TSL to Tales of Monkey Island, then you have to consider the vast difference between both companies.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: mataku on September 20, 2010, 02:48:50 PM
i think the narrator should describe what graham is doing more.
for example, when you pick something up, i'd like her to say "Graham picks up a ..." so that i'll know what it is. a few times i picked up things i didn't even know what they were until i looked into the inventory.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: snabbott on September 20, 2010, 02:51:14 PM
I used to. Not anymore.

Dedicated to Phoenix Online full time now.
:o
I didn't know that!
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on September 20, 2010, 02:52:50 PM
Sometimes she does; at all times, you should get a good description of what the object is if you use the Eye icon on it before picking it up.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Jafar on September 20, 2010, 03:14:20 PM
One of the things that disappointed me was the lack of interactivity when using the hand and talk icons.

For example, in KQ6, when you go to the garden in the Isle of Wonder, you have all of these strange things you can talk to, try to touch, or give things to. Most of them actually respond, and at the very least, you get a unique narrator comment. ("The iceberg lettuce gives Alexander the cold shoulder")

Going there in TSL though, there's a lot less you can do there. Trying to talk to the garden creatures just gets a "Graham doesn't want to talk to anything in the garden" message, and you can only really interact with the important objects.

Sure, you can get plenty of descriptions with the eye icon, but after looking at something, my next impulse is to try to touch and talk to it, and I just get "You can't do that" messages.
I guess it's not really a big important part of the game, but it really helps a game feel fleshed out. One of my favorite parts of adventure games is checking out absolutely everything, and it's a shame to see a lot of potential go to waste.

I mean, I can't even click the hand on other people to poke them, or shake their hands, or pinch them, or tap them on the shoulder...it just bugs me, y'know? :P
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 20, 2010, 03:27:25 PM
I agree with Jafar, the Game seems More focused on the Story with a Naggy Narrator, instead of having the Player have some Fun and do some Other weird things.  ???

Like i said, stop trying to Squeeze the Player Into the Story by Cutting Scenes that may seem Useless to you guys or have someone in your Head telling you are Insane   :P
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Astor on September 20, 2010, 03:29:17 PM
Well, I've really enjoyed the Episodes so far, and I only have one or two minor criticisms  -

* The placement of Cassima's necklace is rather poor. I mean really, lying on the floor? Sadly I can't really think of another place myself

* When I'm on the Isle of Wonder and talking to the ferryman the background yawning from the clams/oysters is quite loud and I miss parts of his dialogue

* The Black Widow seems to have this weird red blob on her throat. Is that intentional?

Apart from these quibbles, this has been a great game. Thankyou team!
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 20, 2010, 03:35:05 PM
I'm pretty sure you can mess with at least the baby's tears and the iceberg lettuce in that scene.  We are also working on increasing the number of possible interactions, just one of those types of extra things we tack into the game as we're going along and a lot of time that could have gone into fun little additions like that went into making changes based on feedback for Episode 1.  I'm hoping that we'll have some time to add lots more little fun elements like that and I think we will.

Daventry what other types of weird stuff would you like to see?  I agree that random extra stuff would be nice but keep in mind that other KQ games didn't really have a whole lot of totally random stuff that didn't have anything to do with plot progression or solving puzzles.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 20, 2010, 03:44:09 PM
You Dont need random stuff to Focus on Puzzles or Story Progressions, Fun ads Longplay and Entertainment to the Game aswell. ;)

Or you could just have the Narrator Constantly tell you:
No, that is Not Important when Looking
No, that is Not helpful when Touching
No, that wont talk back

The Game Quickly becomes Dull and Boring, so a Game like QFG2VGA is How TSL Should be, that Poor Girl would have Allot of Talking to do by then.  :suffer:

I think AGDI is Hiring Voice Actors for QFG2VGA  :P
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 20, 2010, 03:54:40 PM
You Dont need random stuff to Focus on Puzzles or Story Progressions, Fun ads Longplay and Entertainment to the Game aswell. ;)

Or you could just have the Narrator Constantly tell you:
No, that is Not Important when Looking
No, that is Not helpful when Touching
No, that wont talk back

The Game Quickly becomes Dull and Boring, so a Game like QFG2VGA is How TSL Should be, that Poor Girl would have Allot of Talking to do by then.  :suffer:

I think AGDI is Hiring Voice Actors for QFG2VGA  :P

The thing with those black/white interaction results is it rules out being able to do that thing later.  If you tell a player that an object is not helpful they may never think to try it again.  If you say, "Why would Graham want to do that now?" then it still hints that what they're trying may work at a later time or in a different way.  For example, you can show Hassan your scroll to get some direction on where to go, but after you've progressed in the game beyond the tip he would give you, trying to show him the scroll shouldn't still have him give you the same tip.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Enchantermon on September 20, 2010, 04:06:01 PM
The only thing that I can think of that hasn't already been mentioned is Graham's running animation. Viewed from the side it looks fine, but viewed from the back the leg movements look a little wonky; as if his calves are moving both backwards and towards the inside. The walking animation is wonderful; so much more natural than the original. The mouth movements were much better, pathfinding was mostly great, and I appreciated the "continuous walk" icon. Overall, Episode 2 was a huge improvement, and you all did great. It felt very similar to an Episode of Sam and Max in terms of gameplay.
In fact, my only other complaint is that I haven't found the Suffer yet. :( ;)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 20, 2010, 04:07:10 PM
I think on the Isle of Wonder, Graham should go to the Swamp and talk to the Dog Tree with it Barking at Him.

Give the Dog a Bone and have the Tree Eat Graham by Accident: with the Narrator saying: The Dog went Crackers for Graham  :P

Give the Lettuce Babies some Milk

Put Ice in Graham's Pocket and have him do a Dance of Shivers

Talk to the Stick in the Mud and the Rotton Tomato.

Have Graham walk Into the Swamp with him Drowning, then the Narrator says: Ever got that Sinking Feeling you Shouldent Walk there Graham
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on September 20, 2010, 04:08:24 PM
We aren't going to be adding completely new screens that we haven't already created, I can tell you that with complete certainty.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Enchantermon on September 20, 2010, 04:08:55 PM
Give the Lettuce Babies some Milk
They're not Lettuce Babies, they're Baby's Tears (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soleirolia_soleirolii). ;)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 20, 2010, 04:15:35 PM
We aren't going to be adding completely new screens that we haven't already created, I can tell you that with complete certainty.
Should've thought about it when making TSL, you cant just Force the Story with Limited Fun and having 5 Episodes on 1 Location (The Green Isles) while Visiting New Places and yet we keep coming Back.   :P
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 20, 2010, 04:16:49 PM
Yeah if there's a scene that used to be in KQ6 that's not in TSL don't expect to see it suddenly appear later.

And the fun is only as limited as you make it - how much could you accomplish in the first 25% of any King's Quest game?
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 20, 2010, 04:21:35 PM
Good Point, i still say add some Animation to the Ice in Graham's Pants while making him Dance with Shivers  ;D

Give one of the Dog Guards a Bone and have them Beg for it.  :suffer:
(http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/125/046graham.jpg)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: snabbott on September 20, 2010, 04:34:37 PM
Should've thought about it when making TSL, you cant just Force the Story with Limited Fun and having 6 Episodes on 1 Location (The Green Isles) while Visiting New Places and yet we keep coming Back.   :P
I don't quite understand that sentence. Anyway, don't you mean 5 episodes?

(Posted on: September 20, 2010, 05:26:57 PM)


Give one of the Dog Guards a Bone and have them Beg for it.  :suffer:
Ok, while I'm quite sure that one's not going to happen, it is kind of amusing.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 20, 2010, 04:38:03 PM
I mean, that in Ep3 when we go to the Isle of the Beast, we wont jump through Hot Water to First Cool it Down with some Ice or Avoid the Archer, we will probably just Arrive at the Isle and end up right Inside the Beast Castle.

We arent even Exploring the Isle of the Mist, everything is Cutscenes or Cut Out Places.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Cez on September 20, 2010, 04:40:24 PM
who said we are going to the Isle of the Beast in ep3. Did you see the preview video of Ep3? That should give you a good idea of what Isle is the main new thing of the next episode.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 20, 2010, 04:43:26 PM
I mean, that in Ep3 when we go to the Isle of the Beast, we wont jump through Hot Water to First Cool it Down with some Ice or Avoid the Archer, we will probably just Arrive at the Isle and end up right Inside the Beast Castle.

We arent even Exploring the Isle of the Mist, everything is Cutscenes or Cut Out Places.

You do realize that on the Isle of Wonder there are two fewer scenes but there are also two new scenes at the same time right?  It's not like we just cut things out and made the game smaller overall.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 20, 2010, 04:43:55 PM
Its no fun when you Cut Out Scenes by Adding New Scenes,
who said we are going to the Isle of the Beast in ep3. Did you see the preview video of Ep3? That should give you a good idea of what Isle is the main new thing of the next episode.
Aw dang it, in the Very Old Trailer we saw Scenes of the Tower with Valanice being dragged by the Hair and Graham being on the Beast Isle with a Howling Beast, guess that will happen in Ep4 then.  ::)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on September 20, 2010, 04:58:26 PM
I mean, that in Ep3 when we go to the Isle of the Beast, we wont jump through Hot Water to First Cool it Down with some Ice or Avoid the Archer, we will probably just Arrive at the Isle and end up right Inside the Beast Castle.

We're already exploring the same locations as KQ6, and now you want to solve all the same puzzles, too?  Just play KQ6.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 20, 2010, 05:09:30 PM
Hmm, good point  ;D

By the way, i kind of find it weird for Graham to go back to the Isle of Sacred Mountain just for him to Climb the Stairs and have the Hole in the Wall hitch a Ride with Graham.

In a Preview Trailer, this was shown as a Cheat so we Deliberately Have to go back to the Isle of Sacred Mountain

What would've Happend if Graham goes Into Chessboard Land with an Invisibility Cloak that Only works Once and he doesent have his Companion.

I think that After Graham read the Book and about the Nightshade, we would go Back to the Isle and pick up the Flower, then the Hole in the Wall would Fall Down the Stairs and Beg Graham to take him along. ;)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Enchantermon on September 20, 2010, 05:44:58 PM
What would've Happend if Graham goes Into Chessboard Land with an Invisibility Cloak that Only works Once and he doesent have his Companion.
If you're asking this, you haven't tried going back to Chessboard land after sneaking past the guards.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 20, 2010, 05:59:06 PM
Even if we did have Graham collecting Hole in the Wall at the bottom of the stairs people would still go up them.  There's no reason to not have that happen at the top of the stairs.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Jujuba on September 20, 2010, 07:00:39 PM
Well, I'm happy just to play King's Quest again. It was a loooooooong wait for The Silver Lining.

Yes, for Episode 3, 4 and 5 I want more puzzles, more hours spend, more interactive, sidequests, itens, alternative solutions...

And, and... yes... yeeeeees! YEEEEEEEEEEEES!!! I want King's Quest 10!!!
King's Quest 1.5 (Valanice Quest)!!!
King's Quest 2.5 http://www.infamous-adventures.com/home/index.php?page=kos !!!
The Silver Lining II!!!
King's Quest XXV!!!

... but...


I'm happy with the few I do have! :)

Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: hrpeanut on September 20, 2010, 07:02:58 PM
Just finished EP2.

I just wanted to say you guys are doing a great job.  So far it's a pretty intriguing story with some heart-felt twists.

Dont lose momentum, keep doing what you're doing.  I look forward to EP3.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: mataku on September 20, 2010, 07:24:49 PM
i know you're probably aren't gonna change this, but... remove the conversation trees? I mean, no KQ game ever had convo trees. in fact, except for GK1 and maybe LSL7, I don't think any sierra game had anything resembling a convo tree. Convo trees are overused as it is in adv. games.  :-\
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on September 20, 2010, 07:27:38 PM
i know you're probably aren't gonna change this, but... remove the conversation trees? I mean, no KQ game ever had convo trees. in fact, except for GK1 and maybe LSL7, I don't think any sierra game had anything resembling a convo tree. Convo trees are overused as it is in adv. games.  :-\

The QFG games were built around conversation trees.  And the convo trees in those games were WAY more overblown than they are in TSL.  This is one area where I think it's a nice change for the series, personally.  A few of the conversations go on a bit long here, I think, but overall the tree system works pretty well, I'd say.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: mataku on September 20, 2010, 07:38:28 PM
well yea but they don't really produce anything. It's one thing if the convo tree is some sort of puzzle, where you have to choose the right answers to get something, but with what's done here, it's basically just like pressing "next page" every few sentences.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 20, 2010, 07:40:54 PM
Same with the QFG conversations, and some of the conversation topics in this game are actually required in order to trigger something else happening or becoming possible.  i.e. Ask Hassan about the Isle of the Crown and then about the Magic Bag and you'll get a hint about where to go.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: mataku on September 20, 2010, 07:43:55 PM
but you have no choice other then to ask him about the isle and bag. there's basically like, what... one or 2 topics at every stop? it's either that or "goodbye". so what's the point? I think the old kq had it right. that the character was smart enough on his own to ask the right questions. and if you wanted something specific you just used an object to represent that topic, like you did with the bookshop keeper when you used the scroll on him.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 20, 2010, 07:46:10 PM
but you have no choice other then to ask him about the isle and bag. there's basically like, what... one or 2 topics at every stop? it's either that or "goodbye". so what's the point?

Well you're not forced to talk to most of the characters about anything, a lot of the conversation topics are just story development which is optional.  You can also just show Hassan the scroll to get the same information, and if you do you won't ever get that conversation topic.

In future episodes you'll actually get far more conversation topics with some characters to get more information about specific aspects of your quest and things you're trying to accomplish that you can't get any other way.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on September 20, 2010, 07:47:39 PM
I personally like the the conversation trees. It's a nice touch. On an unrelated note, I also love the camera's angles when you're selecting an option from the conversation tree. For example, Graham sitting on the bench next to Edgar or Hassan looking down at Graham in the water.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Cez on September 20, 2010, 08:17:46 PM
yeah, that's one thing that wouldn't change. I can't imagine the 10 minutes conversation with Edgar on just one go. And I like the idea of giving the option to people to explore things that add to the depth of the characters and story.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kyranthia on September 20, 2010, 09:22:47 PM
I think (and this is somewhat a minor quibble) that when areas are removed, it seems to work better if there's a reason why.  Like - we can't go to the beach at the Isle of the Crown since the large tree is in the way.  There's a reason why it's not accessible.

But to cut out an area with just an ending screen seems a tad frustrating.  I kept trying to go to the right on the Isle of Wonder (to where the Bookworm area would have been) and was wondering if there was a glitch as to why Graham wasn't going anywhere. 

I get that due to time and resources, everything can't be there though.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 20, 2010, 09:30:41 PM
We didn't really provide an explanation for that part because you can actually see the entire rest of the beach when you walk over there and he's clearly not there, and when you visit the Four Winds office in town you can see Bookworm and all his friends hanging around inside.  So we didn't really feel it was necessary to actually physically block Graham from being able to go in that direction.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kyranthia on September 20, 2010, 09:36:21 PM
It didn't look that way on my screen, but maybe I had the resolution a bit off.  I saw the beach stretch out beyond the active area and was moving Graham to the right only to have him just walk in place.

After a a couple of tries, I gave up since I did figure that with the characters from that area in the Four Winds, they weren't there.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on September 20, 2010, 10:22:14 PM
I definitely don't have a problem with the missing areas from KQ6.  In fact, I'd like to see fewer and fewer areas from KQ6 in subsequent episodes!   ;D  More original material, please!  Thanks!  ;)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: waltzdancing on September 20, 2010, 10:39:47 PM
I definitely don't have a problem with the missing areas from KQ6.  In fact, I'd like to see fewer and fewer areas from KQ6 in subsequent episodes!   ;D  More original material, please!  Thanks!  ;)

I can only tell you that it will get better. Your adventure has only deepen with the closing of Episode 2, now the real fun begins.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KQ5Fan on September 21, 2010, 12:15:31 AM
My only requests would be

1. Harder puzzles - It makes the game seem longer :P
2. More screens - Although I realize this isn't possible, but I'm just hoping that there'll be more screens to visit in Ep. 3.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KQIX-Team on September 21, 2010, 05:25:46 AM
Okay, that was funny. I've read all five pages of this so called constructive feedback thread now. What's the conclusion? Many people want more puzzles and more location, right? Alright. You say you're not going to expand the first two episodes and you are not going to make additional locations or puzzles for episode 3-5. Correct? So the next three episodes won't get any more complex than now. In other words: Nothing important is gonna change. My question: What kind of constructive feedback do you really expect from us?  ???
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on September 21, 2010, 05:45:20 AM
Actually, that's not at all what we've said. We've quite clearly pointed out that there will be more locations in later episodes.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Astor on September 21, 2010, 06:03:06 AM
If possible, could some of the non-essential dialogue paths for a few of the characters be kept open, say asking Hassan what he thinks of the IoW? I mean once you're done talking they basically just stand there like drones with only the "Goodbye" option available.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Jujuba on September 21, 2010, 07:29:13 AM
C'mon, People! The silver lining is here! We should be happy!  ;D

It's just a fangame! Do be so serious!  8)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 21, 2010, 08:10:54 AM
Okay, that was funny. I've read all five pages of this so called constructive feedback thread now. What's the conclusion? Many people want more puzzles and more location, right? Alright. You say you're not going to expand the first two episodes and you are not going to make additional locations or puzzles for episode 3-5. Correct? So the next three episodes won't get any more complex than now. In other words: Nothing important is gonna change. My question: What kind of constructive feedback do you really expect from us?  ???

Either you misunderstood what we said or you're just being deliberately difficult.  Either way, to clarify - we're not changing the length of the first two episodes at all, they're out the door and done.  Each future episode will continue to expand the game, providing more scenes and original locations to visit.  As the game continues to expand and more locations open up, it also gives us more room to develop puzzle work and gameplay so expect to see that expand as well.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: ChillyChile on September 21, 2010, 10:08:36 AM
It's a very difficult and hilarious game!  I don't think we're even 1% done, and we spent 1 hour on it! 
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: darthkiwi on September 21, 2010, 10:19:00 AM
Okay, that was funny. I've read all five pages of this so called constructive feedback thread now. What's the conclusion? Many people want more puzzles and more location, right? Alright. You say you're not going to expand the first two episodes and you are not going to make additional locations or puzzles for episode 3-5. Correct? So the next three episodes won't get any more complex than now. In other words: Nothing important is gonna change. My question: What kind of constructive feedback do you really expect from us?  ???

Obviously I can't make you like the game. If you played it and didn't like it then that's just your own lookout. But bear some things in mind:

- POS said they would have more puzzles and locations in Ep2 than Ep1. They did this.
- Each episode is only a fraction of the entire game. Bear in mind that the five episodes should be thought of as a whole. The whole game, I suspect, will have enough puzzles and locations to rival most commercial adventure games.
- These people are doing this in their free time, for free, and have already made the engine technically very sophisticated and graphically powerful. The artwork is very good for a fan game. This is a good fan product.
- Constructive criticism has been incorporated into Ep2. They acceded that there were not many puzzles, but also added a "Shorter narrations" option, improved Graham's walk animation, allowed him to run, improved pathfinding and made it possible to switch the narrator's voice off. These were all issues which were raised after the release of Ep1 and they were all rectified. Evidently, POS does respond to constructive criticism.
- The idea that they would go back and alter existing episodes is unreasonable. They've finished them after a very long time and two C&Ds. To say, "No, this isn't good enough, add another year to development time" is not fair on these people. Plus, they want to finally start work on their own projects (like C9) and want to get KQ done quickly. Not shoddily, but I don't blame them for wanting to move on after all this time and all this grief.
- This game was not specifically designed for the puzzles. Yes, that was an aspect of it because it's a KQ game, but the main reason this game exists is to give closure to the story of the royal family of Daventry. That has always been its aim. As such, you shouldn't be at all surprised that the game's story is more prominent than in other KQs and that the puzzles are perhaps not always as prominent.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 21, 2010, 10:32:10 AM
Nice post darthkiwi, that's an excellent summary.  We are also working to improve Episode 3 even further based on feedback and hope to continue to follow this pattern all the way through the end.  The storyline we're working on won't change, and past episodes won't be altered, but we're more than happy to make reasonable tweaks to actual gameplay elements to help make the game be more enjoyable for people.

And you are right that the game isn't designed specifically to be puzzle-based.  Future episodes will contain more puzzles than previous ones, but it is still an "adventure" game, not a "puzzle" game (off-topic very briefly - for the latter, try Professor Layton and you can puzzle til your head explodes).
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Big C from Cauney island on September 21, 2010, 10:47:14 AM
Darthkiwi had a good summary. The purpose of this project is to bring closure to the series, and I think it is doing a great job. I did a review some were else on the forums, the only critique I had was with some puzzle aspects. But I stress SOME. The puzzles were still good, I did get stumped at points. Isle of wonder puzzle was great.  Other than that, it's cool the developers fixed so many things based on feedback. It made a huge difference. So thats my feedback.  But again, its so hard to judge a game when I haven't played the whole thing. The best a fan can do is give feedback per episode. Keep up the good work POS. Anxiously awaiting episode 3!
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on September 21, 2010, 10:51:51 AM
I want to reiterate an earlier post of mine concerning one of the things that I found pretty immersion breaking--black screen load times when transitioning from scene to scene.  The computer I was running it on is pretty high end, yet these load times often lasted several seconds--which, in a modern game (especially a strongly plot driven one where the player is anxious to see what happens next) seemed like an eternity at times.  I'm not sure what could be done in terms of optimizations to solve this, but definitely something you guys should look into, if you aren't already.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 21, 2010, 10:53:18 AM
I want to reiterate an earlier post of mine concerning one of the things that I found pretty immersion breaking--black screen load times when transitioning from scene to scene.  The computer I was running it on is pretty high end, yet these load times often lasted several seconds--which, in a modern game (especially a strongly plot driven one where the player is anxious to see what happens next) seemed like an eternity at times.  I'm not sure what could be done in terms of optimizations to solve this, but definitely something you guys should look into, if you aren't already.

I FULLY agree and we are looking into cleaning this up.  In some ways it's just a limitation on the engine that we use, but we're trying to see what we can do to speed things up.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on September 21, 2010, 11:00:46 AM

I FULLY agree and we are looking into cleaning this up.  In some ways it's just a limitation on the engine that we use, but we're trying to see what we can do to speed things up.

Good to hear.  :)

The abusive narrator comments would be the other main fixable problem.  It wasn't as much of an issue in Episode 1 because there weren't really any puzzles, but with Episode 2, more puzzles means that players are going to be doing a LOT of clicking on stuff--and so far pretty much every single response is insulting to the player.  Someone on the AGDI boards commented that the narrator should laugh WITH the player rather than AT them, and I think that's a good rule of thumb to take to heart here.  An adventure game should reward experimentation, not discourage it.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 21, 2010, 12:05:56 PM
I agree, lets Not Bully the Player or Graham with Insults. ;)

By the way as i said before, please do something with the Sound or Voices when i speak to Characters, sometimes they go Soft to Normal.  ???

Oh and Please tone Down the Clams, they are So Loud that i cant Hear what the Narrator say or Hassan.  ???
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 21, 2010, 12:13:15 PM
I agree, lets Not Bully the Player or Graham with Insults. ;)

By the way as i said before, please do something with the Sound or Voices when i speak to Characters, sometimes they go Soft to Normal.  ???

Oh and Please tone Down the Clams, they are So Loud that i cant Hear what the Narrator say or Hassan.  ???

Note that if you have adjusted any of the audio sliders, the game is under the impression that you're setting things up just the way you want them and won't make any automatic adjustments of background sound or music on its own.

And those are oysters ;)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: MangoMercury on September 21, 2010, 12:16:30 PM
Speaking of narration issues, I was wondering what the likelihood would be of specific lines going with specific "objects", for want of a better word.  Just sometimes the interactions don't really work well with what has been clicked on.  Two examples come to mind - first one was when I clicked to talk (I believe) to the lady in the restaurant; I was told "Graham cannot interact with that -object-".  The second one, I think I clicked the hand on the floor or something, and it came up with the "Guards!  Guards!" line.  Neither of which make much sense.  

So really, I'm wondering as I said, whether specific items will get singular interactions in the future, or whether they'll continue to be general ones?
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 21, 2010, 12:18:20 PM
Speaking of narration issues, I was wondering what the likelihood would be of specific lines going with specific "objects", for want of a better word.  Just sometimes the interactions don't really work well with what has been clicked on.  Two examples come to mind - first one was when I clicked to talk (I believe) to the lady in the restaurant; I was told "Graham cannot interact with that -object-".  The second one, I think I clicked the hand on the floor or something, and it came up with the "Guards!  Guards!" line.  Neither of which make much sense.  

So really, I'm wondering as I said, whether specific items will get singular interactions in the future, or whether they'll continue to be general ones?

Sometimes - it just depends on whether we have set the game up to recognize that specific object as unique and separate from the background behind it.  It does take extra work so it's not possible to do unique interactions for every single object but we are working on improving this a bit as well.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: MangoMercury on September 21, 2010, 12:23:20 PM
That's definitely understandable; I guess it's more for the lady than the floor that perhaps a line could have been made, but great to know that you guys are striving for improvement!
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Enchantermon on September 21, 2010, 01:41:06 PM
Note that if you have adjusted any of the audio sliders, the game is under the impression that you're setting things up just the way you want them and won't make any automatic adjustments of background sound or music on its own.
I didn't adjust any of the audio sliders and I found this happening as well.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on September 21, 2010, 01:47:34 PM
The oysters do yawn a bit loudly, I've noticed that as well, and some people speak more loudly than others. We did set it up to lower the background and music when you were talking to someone, but it may need a little more fine tuning.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 21, 2010, 01:48:38 PM
I guess I've just grown used to loud Oysters yawning in the background where I work.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Fierce Deity on September 21, 2010, 01:51:14 PM
I guess I've just grown used to loud Oysters yawning in the background where I work.

Are you a fisherman who works on the Docks?
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 21, 2010, 02:00:08 PM
Nope I'm a math teacher.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Fierce Deity on September 21, 2010, 02:01:28 PM
Nope I'm a math teacher.

Ahh, makes sense.  ::)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: StormSpirit86 on September 21, 2010, 02:37:19 PM
Don't know if I have said this on this thread already, but my main concern is that I'm feeling the game is more like a KQ6 Remake (due to characters and locations) than a new installment, more original stuff is required! I hope we can explore both 'sides' of the Dreamworld. Also, the puzzles were quite easy, so it would be nice if you make them harder for future episodes, also, some Myst-like puzzles would be ok IMHO.

Other than that I like the game quite a lot, the graphics and music are great. I even like the darker tone that the game has.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 21, 2010, 02:52:33 PM
That is exactly what i've been saying, instead of trying to Introduce KQ to New Players (witch it Doesent) we Re-Play KQ6 in a Diffrent Version, instead of Starting TSL In Daventry.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Big C from Cauney island on September 21, 2010, 02:56:04 PM
I have to say, green isles in 1080p widescreen is phenomenal.  Great color palette, like a commercial game.  Obviously, sound and music phenomenal as well. Phoenix has created the ultimate kings quest atmosphere in my opinion.  I still get wowed when I play it.  I had mentioned in another thread about having "mini-quests" like KQ4,  Definitely adds a lot of depth to the gameplay aspect.  To that effect, adding mini-stories within the story.   Now the main story in fascinating.  An epic story indeed.  This is pretty much everything I ever wanted to see for kings quest.  An ending to the story with updated technology, maybe even a more adult theme to signify its in a new age.  And of course to piece them all together in the end.  

Now as far as everything on KQ6, I'm OK with most of the game in the green isles because I think the story left off there.  And as far as I've heard in the forums there will be new locations. I wonder what they would do with the world of dreams? No idea. I would love to be able to travel back maybe to some previous locations.  I dont think the developers would leave everything Green Isles. But honestly, no matter what, I just want a fitting ending to the series. And it looks like I'll get that.


Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 21, 2010, 03:01:37 PM
The Story or KQ8 left off with Mask of Eternity and we should've start off with the Celebration of Connor In Daventry (KQ2VGA Cloud Test)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: snabbott on September 21, 2010, 03:06:18 PM
Nope I'm a math teacher.

Ahh, makes sense.  ::)
Those oysters have a hard time focusing on math, huh? They don't even have fingers to count on. :P
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on September 21, 2010, 03:07:39 PM
Well, we all saw how math knocked them right out back in KQ6. :)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on September 21, 2010, 03:09:27 PM
Two dulcimers raised to the the degree of one half-dulcimer, put over the result of several mackels, albeit fine mackels...

That's all I can remember.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Big C from Cauney island on September 21, 2010, 03:12:00 PM
I only meant in my opinion it ended with me at KQ6. At that point, I was getting out of video games in general (aside from some N64 in high school and some Xbox/ps2 in college).  I saw KQ7 at best buy, but it looked cartoonish. When I saw 8, it looked more like an action game without a lead family member.  But again, I was way into video games until high school, and didn't even start playing some again until after college.  TSL was a surprise old school treat.

For me, I just felt the Black cloak thing needed more explanation, and it never got any.  No disrespect intended to MOE fans.  It was really my age and life at the time that shifted. I'm actually quite surprised I'm as excited about this project as I am.  The first "commercial" game I even bought these past few years was Crysis back in 2008  when I bought a new computer. Other than that, I saw TSL in 2005 and pretty much just played the old ones and followed the site.  Thats my gaming history since 1992.  So for me, I got a soft spot for KQ6.

I might try MoE though. I've seen it played on Youtube.  And I've watched the 7 playthrough. But, the only cartoonish game I REALLY got into was the Adventures of Willy Beamish. Now THAT was incredible. I still got the box in my shelf right now.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 21, 2010, 03:12:50 PM
Well, we all saw how math knocked them right out back in KQ6. :)
Two dulcimers raised to the the degree of one half-dulcimer, put over the result of several mackels, albeit fine mackels...
(http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Sleepy/sleep-039.gif)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: koko_99_2001 on September 21, 2010, 03:15:06 PM
The oysters do yawn a bit loudly, I've noticed that as well, and some people speak more loudly than others. We did set it up to lower the background and music when you were talking to someone, but it may need a little more fine tuning.

I noticed a couple things like that as well. The main one was in the cutscene with Shamir and Graham...the music was a bit overpowering. I was glad I had the subtitles on so that I could understand what was being said :)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Astor on September 21, 2010, 03:16:37 PM
If possible, could some of the non-essential dialogue paths for a few of the characters be kept open, say asking Hassan what he thinks of the IoW? I mean once you're done talking they basically just stand there like drones with only the "Goodbye" option available.

Any thoughts on this? I really think it would add a great deal to the game.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: StormSpirit86 on September 21, 2010, 03:30:15 PM
The Story or KQ8 left off with Mask of Eternity and we should've start off with the Celebration of Connor In Daventry (KQ2VGA Cloud Test)

Well, for that you have KQ2VGA already ;), at least the celebration is mentioned in Episode 2 of TSL :)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 21, 2010, 03:38:24 PM
If TSL had More Time withOut the Two C&D we would have a Longer Ep1 with a Longer Opening, instead of just Plunging the Player into the Game as if Expected to Know on what is going on and TSL has No Connection with the Three KQ VGA Games, the Episodes are Purely Based on the Original KQ Games ;)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KQ5Fan on September 21, 2010, 05:00:55 PM
Just throwing this out there - the review on the main page was incredibly biased, lol. They're judging the quality of the game based on their own moral views.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on September 21, 2010, 05:20:01 PM
I would like to see some reviews from actual gaming sites as well, but it's nice to read a review nonetheless.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Rosella on September 21, 2010, 05:22:26 PM
...On a rather unrelated note, does anyone else get Hips Don't Lie stuck in their head every time they read the title to this thread? :P
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: atec123 on September 21, 2010, 05:24:29 PM
Just throwing this out there - the review on the main page was incredibly biased, lol. They're judging the quality of the game based on their own moral views.
well the site is called familyfriendlygames.com or something like that. :P
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Enchantermon on September 21, 2010, 05:26:42 PM
...On a rather unrelated note, does anyone else get Hips Don't Lie stuck in their head every time they read the title to this thread? :P
I do now... ;)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: snabbott on September 21, 2010, 05:48:20 PM
...On a rather unrelated note, does anyone else get Hips Don't Lie stuck in their head every time they read the title to this thread? :P
I do now... ;)
*facepalm* :P
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Big C from Cauney island on September 21, 2010, 06:10:56 PM
...On a rather unrelated note, does anyone else get Hips Don't Lie stuck in their head every time they read the title to this thread? :P

I posted that same thing in the whistle contest thread. Man, maybe I just think about Shakira too much. But its hardly my fault.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 21, 2010, 06:28:13 PM
If TSL had More Time withOut the Two C&D we would have a Longer Ep1 with a Longer Opening, instead of just Plunging the Player into the Game as if Expected to Know on what is going on and TSL has No Connection with the Three KQ VGA Games, the Episodes are Purely Based on the Original KQ Games ;)

What do you mean by TSL not having connections to those games?  They're all based on the originals (although KQ2+ does go above and beyond, in a good way IMO) with the same basic plot elements, so the connection is still generally the same.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on September 21, 2010, 08:06:05 PM
Family Friendly Games does have a very specific point of view from which they look at games, yes, but a lot of the points they made in the review didn't have anything to do with that. In fact, the parts I quoted I tried to pick out as ones that were comments on the game in general, not having to do with their particular moral standpoint. Plus, I was excited to see a review of episode 2 from the press finally! :)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on September 21, 2010, 08:15:15 PM
How long after release did it take for Episode 1 reviews to come out?
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Big C from Cauney island on September 21, 2010, 08:17:08 PM
Hassan was dead on. That 4 mouths thing was hilarious. But I probably laughed even more at the death scene where he says :"well, you know, thats how you should go".  And I can't forge the classic "Jollo, they're comatose!"
Probably not great for someone real conservative, but I fell out.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 21, 2010, 08:18:35 PM
How long after release did it take for Episode 1 reviews to come out?

They were actually rolling out relatively quickly after the Episode 1 release, but a big piece of that is also that we got review copies out to the press earlier for that release - with Episode 2 we only got press copies distributed a few days in advance so it's not that surprising that there aren't many out there yet.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: waltzdancing on September 21, 2010, 08:52:32 PM
They will slowly filter in. We will post for you as soon as we get them.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on September 21, 2010, 08:54:36 PM
There seems to be much less media attention with Episode 2 as compared to Episode 1. But that's to be expected, I guess.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on September 21, 2010, 09:36:16 PM
Yeah--I don't expect there will be as many reviews, but a decent number of people who downloaded press copies were excited to play and review the game. I do think the shorter timespan + longer gameplay is part of why we haven't seen many yet.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Cat1 on September 21, 2010, 09:50:32 PM
I pretty much just want more/harder puzzles - everything was a bit too easy for my liking.  The only place where I was stumped was in finding the 3rd ingredient, and that was because I thought I'd found a clue in the bookshop, which turned out not to be a clue, so I spent ages trying a lot of useless things!

I have to say that Jollo really annoyed me - why have you made him into such a silly, annoying character??  I just can't imagine that he would be acting the idiot like that, and not wanting to help Graham.  In KQVI he was one of the wisest and most helpful characters.  Now he's just acting like a fool.  I hope that will not continue in future episodes!

I'm not a huge fan of the whole 'epic' thing, but that's just taste I guess.

I did enjoy it though.  My favourite part was the Sea Nymph part - the sea looked so nice and blue, I just wanted to dive in..  I thought it was a really nice idea for an interesting location too.  I hope there's some more stuff to do there in future episodes!
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on September 22, 2010, 12:15:27 AM
If TSL had More Time withOut the Two C&D we would have a Longer Ep1 with a Longer Opening, instead of just Plunging the Player into the Game as if Expected to Know on what is going on and TSL has No Connection with the Three KQ VGA Games, the Episodes are Purely Based on the Original KQ Games ;)

What do you mean by TSL not having connections to those games?  They're all based on the originals (although KQ2+ does go above and beyond, in a good way IMO) with the same basic plot elements, so the connection is still generally the same.
Lets put it this way, what from the KQ 1 2 3 VGA Games are In TSL ;)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KQ5Fan on September 22, 2010, 02:26:48 AM
I do kinda agree with the whole Jollo thing. He was really caring in KQ6, and it seemed like it didn't even matter to him that the king and his sister were comatose.

Unless, of course, there's going to be some sort of explanation in the future episodes like with the Valanice thing. :P
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Cez on September 22, 2010, 02:36:38 AM
If TSL had More Time withOut the Two C&D we would have a Longer Ep1 with a Longer Opening, instead of just Plunging the Player into the Game as if Expected to Know on what is going on and TSL has No Connection with the Three KQ VGA Games, the Episodes are Purely Based on the Original KQ Games ;)

What do you mean by TSL not having connections to those games?  They're all based on the originals (although KQ2+ does go above and beyond, in a good way IMO) with the same basic plot elements, so the connection is still generally the same.
Lets put it this way, what from the KQ 1 2 3 VGA Games are In TSL ;)

And why would our games have connections to KQ 1 2 3 remakes? They are not official source to start with.

However, because they are remakes, they contain all the information from the originals. Did you play King's Quest 1, 2 and 3. Hagatha? Manannan? hello?
You seem to keep mentioning the tower scene from the trailers which will play a role eventually. What King's Quest game is that from?

Why do you keep asking questions to which you already know the answer?
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Fierce Deity on September 22, 2010, 03:00:30 AM
You seem to keep mentioning the tower scene from the trailers which will play a role eventually. What King's Quest game is that from?

Oooh, I know, I know. Pick me. Oh, please pick me. *raises hand*  :scholar:

I think the references in TSL pay a lot of homage to past games. It is taking a twist, since the whole Black Cloak Society was a small part of the original series, but at the same time, it's the one element that left the series hanging. You are essentially just giving the fans what they want, but I think some of them are having difficulty realizing this.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: snabbott on September 22, 2010, 07:59:10 AM
I do kinda agree with the whole Jollo thing. He was really caring in KQ6, and it seemed like it didn't even matter to him that the king and his sister were comatose.

Unless, of course, there's going to be some sort of explanation in the future episodes like with the Valanice thing. :P
Well, he's a jester, so I imagine he is using humor to deal with the situation.

Also, he doesn't have as much of a personal connection to Alexander or Rosella as he had with Cassima.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 22, 2010, 09:02:11 AM
If TSL had More Time withOut the Two C&D we would have a Longer Ep1 with a Longer Opening, instead of just Plunging the Player into the Game as if Expected to Know on what is going on and TSL has No Connection with the Three KQ VGA Games, the Episodes are Purely Based on the Original KQ Games ;)

What do you mean by TSL not having connections to those games?  They're all based on the originals (although KQ2+ does go above and beyond, in a good way IMO) with the same basic plot elements, so the connection is still generally the same.
Lets put it this way, what from the KQ 1 2 3 VGA Games are In TSL ;)

What from them is not in TSL?
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on September 22, 2010, 09:09:22 AM
The only thing in the VGA remakes that is NOT in TSL is the original material in AGDI's KQ2+ game. The VGA remakes of 1 and 3 (by AGDI and IA respectively) are pretty straightforward 1-to-1 remakes of the originals, with a few small exceptions.

The only additional material in the KQ3 VGA game that I can think of is that they establish the Manannan-Mordack relationship, and they stretch out the time period between Alex's return and Graham's heart attack.

In any case--let's get back on topic, shall we? :)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: jttsai on September 22, 2010, 05:46:32 PM
Public health/parenting question -- why would Graham give taffy to a kid that was fishing for his fishing pole? If I were that kid's parent I'd be super pissed at giving up a tool that could bring ongoing sustenance to the family that was hungry for some empty calories and cavities for the kid. And when I tried to give a gold coin for the fishing pole, I was told that Graham wasn't that generous -- but he'll buy taffy instead?
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 22, 2010, 05:58:23 PM
Public health/parenting question -- why would Graham give taffy to a kid that was fishing for his fishing pole? If I were that kid's parent I'd be super pissed at giving up a tool that could bring ongoing sustenance to the family that was hungry for some empty calories and cavities for the kid. And when I tried to give a gold coin for the fishing pole, I was told that Graham wasn't that generous -- but he'll buy taffy instead?

I won't spoil any future game events for you but you make an excellent point. :)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Melook on September 22, 2010, 06:10:13 PM
So that boy appears in future episodes?
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on September 22, 2010, 06:11:18 PM
You'll probably have to get him a toothbrush in Episode 3 because of your irresponsibility in Episode 2.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 22, 2010, 06:27:42 PM
So that boy appears in future episodes?

 :suffer: :suffer: :suffer:
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KQ5Fan on September 22, 2010, 06:45:01 PM
@ That new review that was just posted: I don't think that guy has played a King's Quest game recently. They're filled with cheesy dialogue. That's why it didn't bother me that there was so much in episode 2, it's what I was expecting.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Fierce Deity on September 22, 2010, 07:11:13 PM
So that boy appears in future episodes?

 :suffer: :suffer: :suffer:

Here we go again! Can't say that I miss the Suffer.  ::)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kyranthia on September 22, 2010, 08:23:47 PM
I have to admit, at times I find myself judging the game from a fan perspective and not always objectively.  It's like when a beloved book gets made into a movie, a fan will notice what was omitted/changed, etc.  It's not a fair perspective to look at the games and although I know this, I can't help it.

That said, while I will notice these things, I definitely will not consider any changes to be a game changer in not wanting to see this game in its entirety.  I really appreciate the effort you put in to putting this game out there for us fans.  I've been engaged in the storyline and can't wait to see what happens next.  :)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on September 22, 2010, 08:29:45 PM
@ That new review that was just posted: I don't think that guy has played a King's Quest game recently. They're filled with cheesy dialogue. That's why it didn't bother me that there was so much in episode 2, it's what I was expecting.

There's a difference between cheesy dialogue and sap so thick you have to paddle through it in a canoe.   ;D
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 22, 2010, 08:39:01 PM
@ That new review that was just posted: I don't think that guy has played a King's Quest game recently. They're filled with cheesy dialogue. That's why it didn't bother me that there was so much in episode 2, it's what I was expecting.

There's a difference between cheesy dialogue and sap so thick you have to paddle through it in a canoe.   ;D

Ew, gross mental image.  If you're in a pool of sap that significant I think you have far more serious problems than just paddling :P
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on September 22, 2010, 08:41:09 PM
@ That new review that was just posted: I don't think that guy has played a King's Quest game recently. They're filled with cheesy dialogue. That's why it didn't bother me that there was so much in episode 2, it's what I was expecting.

There's a difference between cheesy dialogue and sap so thick you have to paddle through it in a canoe.   ;D

Ew, gross mental image.  If you're in a pool of sap that significant I think you have far more serious problems than just paddling :P

Lol... :suffer:
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KQ5Fan on September 22, 2010, 11:11:38 PM
There's a difference between cheesy dialogue and sap so thick you have to paddle through it in a canoe.   ;D

What was the cheesy dialogue? Between Graham and Edgar? Because that's pretty standard for a KQ game. Characters that are in close relation to each other will generally have much sappier dialogue.

Did you hear Cassima and Alexander talk in KQ6? That was even worse.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on September 22, 2010, 11:29:20 PM
There's a difference between cheesy dialogue and sap so thick you have to paddle through it in a canoe.   ;D

What was the cheesy dialogue? Between Graham and Edgar? Because that's pretty standard for a KQ game. Characters that are in close relation to each other will generally have much sappier dialogue.

Did you hear Cassima and Alexander talk in KQ6? That was even worse.

Have you ever had a conversation with your father-in-law about your feelings?  It's totally unrealistic.  Graham and Edgar barely know each other!

And I heartily disagree that ANY of the dialogue from KQ6 is worse than what's on display here.  For one, it's more well-written from a purely stylistic standpoint, and secondly, the entire game is a love story fairy tale--it perfectly fits the whole tone.  

Also, think about WHEN this happened in the storyline of the game.  It was right near the end, after you had spent the entire game trying to reach her, and you knew full well that Alexander was pining for her for the duration of his months-long journey.  It was a cathartic moment that had been built up for the ENTIRE GAME.  Had it happened right at the beginning--like say, Alex walked in and instead of being greeted by Alhazared, he went up and had that conversation with Cassima, then yes, I would agree that it was out-of-place and awkward.

Graham and Edgar's conversation, on the other hand, in addition to its sappiness, contradicts the whole sense of urgency in Graham's quest.  In the middle of this urgent mission to save his children, who are cursed and may be in mortal danger, Graham sits down for 10+ minutes of game time to spew gooey man-feelings all over Edgar, and vice versa.  Lol.  Sorry--I don't buy it.  ;D
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 22, 2010, 11:34:11 PM
Graham and Edgar have actually spent quite a bit of time together, based on the conversation they have it seems that Edgar has actually been to Graham's castle and stayed there with the family on several occasions, so I don't know that I'd say they hardly know each other.

And yes, Graham's quest is urgent, but Edgar is also a direct eyewitness to the attack on Rosella and he himself has experienced a good deal of dark magic so he may have information that is useful.

But then again, this entire conversation is totally optional as well, it just adds to the character development and storyline if that's what you're looking for.  A bit sappy, sure.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on September 22, 2010, 11:43:06 PM
Lol--fair enough.  I guess I can't complain TOO much since it IS totally optional.  hehe.  ;D
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KQ5Fan on September 23, 2010, 12:45:55 AM
I think that you also need to take into consideration when the conversation between Graham and Edgar happens in the storyline of the game and how that would affect the mood between the two. Edgar was literally standing right next to Rosella when the evil wizard came out of nowhere and attacked her, and, like Graham, couldn't do anything about it.

I think that's one of the problems with episodic release, you can't really get a complete feel of everything that's going on in the game. It would also make sense why I believed it wasn't overly sappy and a lot of people do - I played episode 1 directly before playing episode 2 so I could refresh myself.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: madhattter on September 23, 2010, 02:37:41 AM
Hi.  Just finished Ep. 2!  Thanks!  Had fun!

A couple of things off the top of my head:

A gameplay cause for concern is that some of the narrations are pointedly misleading...
1) "Graham doesn't want to talk to any of these plants".  If I trusted that, I would be stuck.
2) "That won't work.  Graham NEEDS A KEY to get [in the cabinet]."  Again, false.  This instruction almost kept me from doing the right thing (which I had already previously decided to try next); luckily I chose to disobey.
3) (this one not a blocker) "It says to use your head, but maybe a 'hand' would work."  Well, if you have a hand in your inventory, you're going to think this means to use the hand that's in your inventory.  So you try, and it tells you "Who taught you that logic, Graham?"  You did, narrator... you did.
Not game breakers, but this type of thing can get players stuck when they wouldn't have been otherwise.

I for one was very happy with Graham's run cycle.  Looked great to me.

Short Narrations are still sometimes 4-5 sentences for objects that are completely game irrelevant.  (1 sentence would suffice for me).

Thanks! Can't wait for Episode 3!


Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: shadyparadox on September 23, 2010, 03:10:41 AM
A few things I noticed, but they're really just beta testing issues:

1) If I have the narrator's voice turned off, then I don't want her reading the death messages aloud either.
2) Clicking the Eye icon on the islands on the map gets the subtitle "Graham: Isle of ____" but there is no voice heard here.
3) The pathfinding is improved, but it's still pretty bad around the pawn shop. Thank goodness for the auto-snap feature when he gets stuck on the stairs, because it happens all the time. Just as one example, click the Hand icon on the invisible ink pot, then on the pawn shop door or bell. He gets stuck every time.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KQ5Fan on September 23, 2010, 03:19:30 AM
In regard to the short narration thing someone said above - the one where Graham sits down on something and the narrator yells at him could easily be cut down to one line.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: juss on September 23, 2010, 04:16:34 AM
Just wanted to take a second to say thanks so much for all of the time, effort and energy you've put into making this game.  I finished playing episode 2 yesterday (unfortunately the fial cut scene kept crashing on me so I'll have to wait for a youtube version....) and its safe to say I had an absolute blast.  The game is on the whole beautifully put together and very true to the look and feel of a King's Quest game, whilst also bringing something to the table.  I lvoed especially the attention that you're paying to narrative detail and am more than happy to stop adventuring for ten minutes whilst we get dialogue and background story that flesh out the characters and the world as this is what I'm really there for.  I felt like I was playing the Longest Journey again in some ways....

If I had a criticism I would have to say that some of the puzzles don't reward your effort.  For instance, you spend more time trying to get into Chesboardland and then once you're in there, you're out there.  You spend time looking for the Sea Nymphs and once you've found them there's no pay off.  I guess maybe that was the trade off was the depth you added to the overall storyline which is extremely satisfying, but I think puzzle wise and adventure game needs lead-in puzzles and then scenarios that reward your work on those puzzles.  I was expecting to meet the Queens in chessboardland or go underwater with the sea nymphs or something.

Such a small criticism though, really.  This is King's Quest, this is free, I spent an awesome afternoon playing it.  Thank you very much.  Absolutely can't wait until episode 3....
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on September 23, 2010, 10:29:04 AM
Yeah, that's a good point.  I also felt like Chessboard land was particularly underwhelming.  The transition from the guillotine screen to the inner courtyard/chessboard is awkward, and it seems really strange that Graham wouldn't run into any guards or any characters at all once he got past the two knights.  Where was everyone else?  If humans are so specifically not allowed in Chessboard land, how in the world was Graham able to get to that central area of the castle so easily without encountering ANY opposition at all??  I mean, from a purely narrative standpoint, you set up this great "uh oh" moment with the guillotine being there--it makes you think that you're going to have to figure out a way to make sure Graham is able to keep his head when dealing with the Queens.  But then you go the castle, and BAM, you're right in the central courtyard, which just randomly happens to contain a cabinet with the exact item you need.  Did you guys have a more involved sequence planned for that area that ended up getting cut or something?  Because it seems to me like part of the story was blatantly missing there.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 23, 2010, 10:33:28 AM
Yeah, that's a good point.  I also felt like Chessboard land was particularly underwhelming.  The transition from the guillotine screen to the inner courtyard/chessboard is awkward, and it seems really strange that Graham wouldn't run into any guards or any characters at all once he got past the two knights.  Where was everyone else?  If humans are so specifically not allowed in Chessboard land, how in the world was Graham able to get to that central area of the castle so easily without encountering ANY opposition at all??  I mean, from a purely narrative standpoint, you set up this great "uh oh" moment with the guillotine being there--it makes you think that you're going to have to figure out a way to make sure Graham is able to keep his head when dealing with the Queens.  But then you go the castle, and BAM, you're right in the central courtyard, which just randomly happens to contain a cabinet with the exact item you need.  Did you guys have a more involved sequence planned for that area that ended up getting cut or something?  Because it seems to me like part of the story was blatantly missing there.

The part you're missing is on one of the newspaper articles at the Four Winds Office.  Place seems a bit ghost-townish because everybody's out looking for someone who's missing.  And this won't be your only visit.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Fierce Deity on September 23, 2010, 10:34:40 AM
Yeah, that's a good point.  I also felt like Chessboard land was particularly underwhelming.  The transition from the guillotine screen to the inner courtyard/chessboard is awkward, and it seems really strange that Graham wouldn't run into any guards or any characters at all once he got past the two knights.  Where was everyone else?  If humans are so specifically not allowed in Chessboard land, how in the world was Graham able to get to that central area of the castle so easily without encountering ANY opposition at all??  I mean, from a purely narrative standpoint, you set up this great "uh oh" moment with the guillotine being there--it makes you think that you're going to have to figure out a way to make sure Graham is able to keep his head when dealing with the Queens.  But then you go the castle, and BAM, you're right in the central courtyard, which just randomly happens to contain a cabinet with the exact item you need.  Did you guys have a more involved sequence planned for that area that ended up getting cut or something?  Because it seems to me like part of the story was blatantly missing there.

The part you're missing is on one of the newspaper articles at the Four Winds Office.  Place seems a bit ghost-townish because everybody's out looking for someone who's missing.  And this won't be your only visit.

They did say that the White King had gone missing. Is that the one everybody is looking for?
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on September 23, 2010, 10:48:28 AM
Actually, Weldon, if you're talking about the article I'm thinking of, it's not on the Four Winds board in this episode. Though yes, the knights did say something about the White King.... :)

Plus, re: Chessboard Castle gates and no opposition--they already had, as preventative measures,

a gate that was locked up with a key that was hidden behind two deadly traps and a bridge guarded by their knights whom you could only get past by being invisible. I'd say by the time you get to the Royal Chessboard, they're figuring no could possibly have gotten inside who wasn't already supposed to be there!
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on September 23, 2010, 10:54:17 AM
But what was the cabinet doing right there in the middle of the chessboard courtyard?  It just seems a little too convenient to me.  :)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 23, 2010, 10:55:44 AM
But what was the cabinet doing right there in the middle of the chessboard courtyard?  It just seems a little too convenient to me.  :)

The courtyard is where they hold their best events, makes a good deal of sense to have a trophy case there.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on September 23, 2010, 10:56:59 AM
But what was the cabinet doing right there in the middle of the chessboard courtyard?  It just seems a little too convenient to me.  :)

The courtyard is where they hold their best events, makes a good deal of sense to have a trophy case there.

No it doesn't.  Do high schools and colleges keep their trophy cases right on the sidelines of the football field?  :)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on September 23, 2010, 11:00:10 AM
Again I find myself compelled to say: man, you just really love arguing, don't you, Lamb? :)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on September 23, 2010, 11:03:31 AM
Again I find myself compelled to say: man, you just really love arguing, don't you, Lamb? :)

Heh...it's how I keep myself entertained.  ;)  As long as the arguments stay friendly, I don't see the harm.  :)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on September 23, 2010, 11:08:15 AM
Haha, fair enough. ;)

In that case, remember who we're talking about--those two queens LOVE showing each other up, why wouldn't they have those trophies right out there where they can brag about them while they're playing new chess games? :)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 23, 2010, 11:09:11 AM
But what was the cabinet doing right there in the middle of the chessboard courtyard?  It just seems a little too convenient to me.  :)

The courtyard is where they hold their best events, makes a good deal of sense to have a trophy case there.

No it doesn't.  Do high schools and colleges keep their trophy cases right on the sidelines of the football field?  :)

Not outdoors no because the weather here is terrible a lot of the time, but most of them have trophy display cases right in the gym where everybody can see them as they come and go from basketball games or whatever.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on September 23, 2010, 11:17:45 AM
Haha, fair enough. ;)

In that case, remember who we're talking about--those two queens LOVE showing each other up, why wouldn't they have those trophies right out there where they can brag about them while they're playing new chess games? :)

Hmm...this actually does make sense.  But then maybe there should have been TWO trophy cases, one red, one white...hmmmm?  ;)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 23, 2010, 11:19:11 AM
Haha, fair enough. ;)

In that case, remember who we're talking about--those two queens LOVE showing each other up, why wouldn't they have those trophies right out there where they can brag about them while they're playing new chess games? :)

Hmm...this actually does make sense.  But then maybe there should have been TWO trophy cases, one red, one white...hmmmm?  ;)

There is, that's what the camera's connected to ;)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on September 23, 2010, 11:20:03 AM
Haha, I like to imagine they tried, but they each kept making theirs larger than the other one until they both fell over and were destroyed.  ;D LOL, although Weldon's answer is also fun!

In other news, I'm excited for when you guys get to meet the Queens again!
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on September 23, 2010, 11:25:40 AM

There is, that's what the camera's connected to ;)

Very clever.  :)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Midnightvalkyrie on September 23, 2010, 11:39:29 AM
Hello team and everyone else reading here.
I've been a lurker of these forums since I first heard about the project but finally felt I had to get something off my chest.

Like some others writing in these forums, I was somewhat disappointed after episode 1 considering the few puzzles included in this. Then I read criticism of episode 2, also regarding a lack of puzzles, and I adjusted my expectations accordingly.

I've now played through episode 2, and while I would agree that it is not heave on puzzles, one impression remains, and I have to express it:

I am absolutely stunned and awed at the quality of this game. It's a fan game, and though I realize many (if not most) of the people involved are professionally occupied in the game industry, I still have no words to express my admiration and gratitude for what you have done with this franchise.

The graphics are beautiful, the voiceacting just hits the mark, the puzzles have the right level of difficulty - and last but not least, the storytelling and backstory added to the current game is so true to the original games that it ensures that this game is a very worthy sequel to what's gone before.

Sure, I could nitpick and mention things that don't, in my opinion, fit in - but it really would be nitpicking.

Since I first heard of this project I waited patiently (well, sort of) and you really haven't let me down. I had no idea fans could create something like this. Thank you and congratulations.

Finally, I have to highlight two things from episode 2:

Graham's meeting with Hole in the Wall: Sooo cute and hilarious.
Your reference to the Gabriel Knight games - I am a huuuuuge fan of those, so thank you for plugging them! (Hopefully someday we will get a sequel to those games too).
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on September 23, 2010, 11:41:22 AM
Thank you so much Midnightvalkyrie! We're thrilled that people are enjoying it so much. :) And welcome to the forums!
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: snabbott on September 23, 2010, 01:07:33 PM
I just wanted to mention that I'm really pleased that people have kept the discussions in this thread so civil! :pleased: I wasn't sure what to expect when I created it. Thanks, everyone! :D
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KQ5Fan on September 23, 2010, 02:39:32 PM
Were we actually just arguing about why something doesn't make logical sense on the ISLE OF WONDER? ^

O_O
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Cez on September 23, 2010, 02:54:53 PM
Were we actually just arguing about why something doesn't make logical sense on the ISLE OF WONDER? ^

O_O

heh. you win.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: zaphod08 on September 23, 2010, 04:26:39 PM
Let me say, I've played all seven of the original KQ, as well as the remakes by others. This is absolutely incredible, and I can't tell you how grateful I am. Played through game 2, only got stuck 3 times, and one of them was my own fault. I had thought I had done something. Don't know if this has been brought up, as I skipped several pages of the feedback.
I had talked to the candy merchant, but it didn't seem like I could buy anything from him. I realize now, I was just supposed to pay him, but it might have been nice for the dialogue to hint that he could be paid.
Two, I couldn't get the venom because I had already attempted the same action early on. The cup can't be obtained until the bag is, for obvious reasons. But why can't you get the venom in any order, as soon as you try it? That's my only complaint, such as it is. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on September 23, 2010, 05:18:35 PM
Hi zaphod! Thanks and welcome to the forums :)

That seems odd, re: the venom. You should be able to get that at anytime.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on September 23, 2010, 06:55:14 PM
Let me say, I've played all seven of the original KQ, as well as the remakes by others. This is absolutely incredible, and I can't tell you how grateful I am. Played through game 2, only got stuck 3 times, and one of them was my own fault. I had thought I had done something. Don't know if this has been brought up, as I skipped several pages of the feedback.
I had talked to the candy merchant, but it didn't seem like I could buy anything from him. I realize now, I was just supposed to pay him, but it might have been nice for the dialogue to hint that he could be paid.
Two, I couldn't get the venom because I had already attempted the same action early on. The cup can't be obtained until the bag is, for obvious reasons. But why can't you get the venom in any order, as soon as you try it? That's my only complaint, such as it is. Thanks again.

Welcome to the forums!  What action specifically did you attempt for obtaining the venom?  Katie's correct - that should be possible at any time during the entire episode.  The only way it doesn't work is if you already have it.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: zaphod08 on September 23, 2010, 09:41:10 PM
Let me say, I've played all seven of the original KQ, as well as the remakes by others. This is absolutely incredible, and I can't tell you how grateful I am. Played through game 2, only got stuck 3 times, and one of them was my own fault. I had thought I had done something. Don't know if this has been brought up, as I skipped several pages of the feedback.
I had talked to the candy merchant, but it didn't seem like I could buy anything from him. I realize now, I was just supposed to pay him, but it might have been nice for the dialogue to hint that he could be paid.
Two, I couldn't get the venom because I had already attempted the same action early on. The cup can't be obtained until the bag is, for obvious reasons. But why can't you get the venom in any order, as soon as you try it? That's my only complaint, such as it is. Thanks again.
Tell you what, I'll try the game again from scratch. Glad to see that I should have been able to get it at any time.

Welcome to the forums!  What action specifically did you attempt for obtaining the venom?  Katie's correct - that should be possible at any time during the entire episode.  The only way it doesn't work is if you already have it.


(Posted on: September 23, 2010, 10:34:05 PM)


Well is my face, red. I don't know what happened but I was able to get the venom right off. Don't know if I clicked the wrong spot, my computer glitched or I'm suffering from the duhs. Thanks for the response.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: crayauchtin on September 23, 2010, 10:50:38 PM
That's what I forgot to mention! The run!

Okay, it's fluid. Technically, it's great. Visually, it's swell. It even looks realistic.... in that, yes, a person could realistically move like that.

On the other hand, the only people I know who run like that are seriously goofy nerdballs from elementary school who got beat up frequently. Most people either pull their hands into their chest in fists or put their hands at an aerodynamic vertical angle pointed straight ahead. Graham just lets his hands flop around in front of him. I guess it's a choice everyone has to make, but I still feel an urge to make fun of him every time I see him do it.
And as a result, I will never make him run. :P
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: waltzdancing on September 23, 2010, 10:53:54 PM
It looks a lot better now. When we were in testing phase, I started laughing because it looked like Graham was strutting everywhere. Does this visual make the idea of running better?
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: crayauchtin on September 23, 2010, 11:10:55 PM
No, Waltz. I'm a strutter myself. I only run if panicked. Otherwise, I strut. It's a powerful, quick walk which says "Mess with me, I'll step on your face and keep on going." Floppy hands like King Graham's say... "Heyyyy you guyyyyys waiiiiiiit upppppp!" :P
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: liggy002 on September 24, 2010, 01:45:35 AM
At one point, Graham was walking around like he was a thug- East Coast and West Coast style.  I swear the only thing he was missing there was his bling bling money necklace.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: juss on September 24, 2010, 02:59:13 AM
Haha, I like to imagine they tried, but they each kept making theirs larger than the other one until they both fell over and were destroyed.  ;D LOL, although Weldon's answer is also fun!

In other news, I'm excited for when you guys get to meet the Queens again!

I don't mind peculiar things like the trophy case because that's all part of the bizarre magical world of King's Quest.  The King's Quest games that I've played so far have all been consistently weird in a fairytale, magical kind of way and as long as something feels right, it probably is. (although, I did find giving the fishing boy some candy kind of strange.  I thought maybe buying him some food would have been a better idea!)

It seems that my criticism may have been a little premature as you guys clearly have some payoff planned in further installments.  That newspaper article was certainly pretty long so it did seem kind of strange that that was all there was to it.
Title: End credits
Post by: sybaritefury on September 25, 2010, 12:12:01 AM
 >:(

I know you guys are proud of the work you've done, but is it really necessary to trap me in the credits until they finish rolling? You can click through the intro logos, why not let me get out of the credits without killing the process?
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: waltzdancing on September 25, 2010, 11:35:57 PM
I have brought your concern over to constructive feedback, so more team members will see it.  ;)

To answer your question, I think they are looking into fixing this. I know it has been discussed.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: atec123 on September 26, 2010, 06:44:00 AM
I have brought your concern over to constructive feedback, so more team members will see it.  ;)

To answer your question, I think they are looking into fixing this. I know it has been discussed.
I can exit the credits but then it exists the whole game.

press escape.  the mouse cursor doesn't show up but you can still figure it out pretty easily.

I still hope this gets fixed though.  that is pretty annoying.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Centaur444 on September 26, 2010, 09:17:25 PM
Hey guys, just a quick few comments.

First, can you please remove the two words "select topic" before the dialogue choices.  It is redundant and unnecessary and it intrusively reminds the player's brain that he/she is playing a game.  People don't want to be reminded that they are playing a game when they play games.  It takes them out of the story.  Just listing the choices is all that is necessary.

Secondly, just a minor thing here, but when I exit towards the lighthouse, it just seemed bizarre to me to end up at the same place as if I had exited to the right of the screen instead of the left.  Exiting to the left should be disallowed if the player isn't able to do that at this point.

Thirdly, the narrator.  Please, please, please, try to crank down the annoyance factor on the narrator from a 10 down to a 7 at least.  Turning off the narrator voice is a given, but even after that, the narrator berates the player repeatedly for attempting to do legitimate things.  Good games make the player feel smart or clever.

Lastly, I know the entire game is basically finished already, just some touching up to do on the remaining episodes, but in future games like Corridor 9 or whatever is being developed, the quality control needs to be upped a few notches.   Crisper, less cringe-worthy dialogue.  Smarter, subtle puzzles.  Less random items just seemingly placed in places.

But cheers for reviving King's Quest and I wish you good luck in your future projects!
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on September 26, 2010, 09:58:06 PM
First, can you please remove the two words "select topic" before the dialogue choices.  It is redundant and unnecessary and it intrusively reminds the player's brain that he/she is playing a game.  People don't want to be reminded that they are playing a game when they play games.  It takes them out of the story.  Just listing the choices is all that is necessary.

I like this idea.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Blitzenburg on September 27, 2010, 11:43:25 AM
When you use the hand icon on the candy in the vendor's cart, the game says "you can't just take it, you must talk to the vendor".
But when you talk to him, there's no dialog option for buying anything.

It took me a while to figure out that I need to use the money bag on the candyman.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Jethro McCrazy on September 29, 2010, 04:23:22 PM
First off, enjoying it so far.

A few comments.

For some reason, when ever the fountain is upon my screen in the market place, my game slows down considerably.

It struck me as strange that both the blacksmith's shop, and the clothing/carpet store were closed, yet completely open. Graham may be a recovering kleptomaniac, but it seems unlikely that a shop owner would just leave his or her place of business completely unattended, trusting people not to steal. I understand that we didn't have business with the blacksmith or the clothing store this chapter, but even just having a merchant present to converse with to rule that area out would have been nice. Having the narrator's description say "talk to the merchant if you are interested in purchasing clothing" and having there be no merchant present was irritating. We will need a flying carpet for the Isle of the Sacred Mountain, obviously, and chapter 2 wasn't focusing on that isle, but it still would have been nice to talk to the shop owner, even if buying a carpet wouldn't be possible until later.

Another thing is that in a game where experimentation is key, being called crazy every time you try to use an object with something, and it isn't the correct result, gets very irritating. I seem to recall in previous games where an action wasn't available, the cursor would just turn into a large red "x." I'd much prefer that. Unless more responses from the narrator can be made, in which case I wish they could be tailored to the situation. Either way, being repeatedly called crazy doesn't sit well, when you are only doing what you are meant to, which is to say, solve puzzles through logic and experimentation. (I maintain it isn't crazy to try and use the hole-in-the-wall to peak into the locked box by the blacksmith's shop.)

If I had to pick a wish for future episodes, rather than bigger puzzles, it would probably be additional agendas. In KQ6, you were out to save the Princess, yet you also found time to explore a catacombs to save a girl in need, break an enchantment upon a beast, and even journey into the land of the dead. KQ5 gave us the desert, the mountains, the sea, and Mordak's castle. While I know that it's still not even half over, I'd like to see TSL give us more places to explore with purpose. Put us in an entirely new sandbox as it were. Trap us somewhere, and force us to achieve an agenda before moving on.  It's a great way to change the pace and keep things interesting. Anyway, that's what I've got. Enjoyed it so far, and looking forward to future chapters.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: madhattter on October 01, 2010, 05:13:09 PM
Hi.  2 more things:

1) Unless I missed it, there was no option to download Episode 2 without having Episode 1 bundled with it.  That may make sense now, but I'm wondering how big the download will be by Episode 5.  If it is reasonable to do so, I would recommend making a separate download for each Episode.  (concerns are download time and harddrive space).

2) I often couldn't read the Four Winds news... the pages would render as other textures (trees, leaves, whatever).  This happened whenever I had been playing a bit (visited several locations) and then tried to read the news on the board.  I'm pretty sure that the problem is that the game doesn't have enough texture memory available.  FWIW, I have a reasonable graphics card and if I start the game going directly to board, I can read the news just fine... over time the video memory is probably getting fragmented or being leaked.  Anyways, solutionwise, I would recommend that you don't load all four huge textures at the same time.  One at a time with next/last page buttons would do fine.  I expect that if I am having this problem, others are too.  Thx!

Thanks and I wait eagerly for Episode 3!
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Enchantermon on October 01, 2010, 08:54:41 PM
1) Unless I missed it, there was no option to download Episode 2 without having Episode 1 bundled with it.  That may make sense now, but I'm wondering how big the download will be by Episode 5.  If it is reasonable to do so, I would recommend making a separate download for each Episode.  (concerns are download time and harddrive space).
The plan for this Episode was to release it with Episode 1 (due to all of the updates, I believe) and make Episode 2 available on its own at a later date, but I don't believe that is their intention for the whole of the series. I would assume (and hope) that episodes 3-5 will have their own separate downloads.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on October 01, 2010, 09:26:33 PM
I think that will be the case. If they keep releasing one big installer for all the episodes, then by Episode 5, the installer would be more than 1.5GB in size, which could be problematic for many players, as big downloads are often uncooperative with older computers.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on October 01, 2010, 11:45:02 PM


2) I often couldn't read the Four Winds news... the pages would render as other textures (trees, leaves, whatever).  This happened whenever I had been playing a bit (visited several locations) and then tried to read the news on the board.  I'm pretty sure that the problem is that the game doesn't have enough texture memory available.  FWIW, I have a reasonable graphics card and if I start the game going directly to board, I can read the news just fine... over time the video memory is probably getting fragmented or being leaked.  Anyways, solutionwise, I would recommend that you don't load all four huge textures at the same time.  One at a time with next/last page buttons would do fine.  I expect that if I am having this problem, others are too.  Thx!



I had this problem, too.  But it wasn't just the Four Winds pages.  It always happened after an extended bit of playtime, but eventually, textures would start getting mixed up and you'd end up with really strange situations like a wall having the texture of Graham's character, or the benches in the castle garden having the same texture as the grass.  I was running TSL through Wine, so I didn't bother reporting it because I thought it was just a result of the quick and dirty Wine porting.  But maybe this is an issue that needs to be looked into if others are having similar problems.  Also, whenever this would happen, the options menu GUI would be all messed up, too.  The buttons would show up as different textures, without their proper labels, and I'd have to force quit the game.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: crayauchtin on October 02, 2010, 12:07:40 AM
The texture problem only happened on Four Winds and the magic scroll for me. :\
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on October 02, 2010, 06:24:30 AM
Hmm, that is a problem. You can read the Four Winds in the PDF of the first two issues that comes the download, so there's that alternative for now at least. Madhatter, you can also post about that issue in the tech support forum and we may be able to help fix it for you.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: atec123 on October 02, 2010, 09:53:57 AM
I think that will be the case. If they keep releasing one big installer for all the episodes, then by Episode 5, the installer would be more than 1.5GB in size, which could be problematic for many players, as big downloads are often uncooperative with older computers.
They could always have both.  I prefer getting one huge download even with a crappy connection.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Enchantermon on October 02, 2010, 10:03:30 AM
Even so, with the number of people they have downloading the game, if it was all in one big chunk, their servers would die.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on October 02, 2010, 10:07:19 AM
We do intend to have the future episodes downloadable on their own, and release any updates for previous episodes simply as patches instead of packaging them all together.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Storm on October 04, 2010, 06:14:13 PM
2) I often couldn't read the Four Winds news... the pages would render as other textures (trees, leaves, whatever).  This happened whenever I had been playing a bit (visited several locations) and then tried to read the news on the board.  I'm pretty sure that the problem is that the game doesn't have enough texture memory available.  FWIW, I have a reasonable graphics card and if I start the game going directly to board, I can read the news just fine... over time the video memory is probably getting fragmented or being leaked.  Anyways, solutionwise, I would recommend that you don't load all four huge textures at the same time.  One at a time with next/last page buttons would do fine.  I expect that if I am having this problem, others are too.  Thx!

I had this problem, too.  But it wasn't just the Four Winds pages.  It always happened after an extended bit of playtime, but eventually, textures would start getting mixed up...
Not the same problem.
The magic scroll/Four Winds textures getting messed up is a known issue that's being work on. It doesn't really have anything to do with how long you've been playing, it actually happens on every animated GUI (including Shamir's letters) if you Alt-tab, change resolution or switch between windowed/fullscreen.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: atec123 on October 05, 2010, 06:09:45 AM
2) I often couldn't read the Four Winds news... the pages would render as other textures (trees, leaves, whatever).  This happened whenever I had been playing a bit (visited several locations) and then tried to read the news on the board.  I'm pretty sure that the problem is that the game doesn't have enough texture memory available.  FWIW, I have a reasonable graphics card and if I start the game going directly to board, I can read the news just fine... over time the video memory is probably getting fragmented or being leaked.  Anyways, solutionwise, I would recommend that you don't load all four huge textures at the same time.  One at a time with next/last page buttons would do fine.  I expect that if I am having this problem, others are too.  Thx!

I had this problem, too.  But it wasn't just the Four Winds pages.  It always happened after an extended bit of playtime, but eventually, textures would start getting mixed up...
Not the same problem.
The magic scroll/Four Winds textures getting messed up is a known issue that's being work on. It doesn't really have anything to do with how long you've been playing, it actually happens on every animated GUI (including Shamir's letters) if you Alt-tab, change resolution or switch between windowed/fullscreen.
keep in mind he is also playing in on MacOS through wine.

I got this same problem a few times (on linux via wine) but it's good to know that it is (probably) not a wine bug.  I thought it might be.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Storm on October 05, 2010, 05:14:08 PM
I had the GUI texture issue in both Windows 7 and XP, but I never had the actual game textures getting mixed up no matter how long I've been playing.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: madhattter on October 06, 2010, 11:53:12 PM
Quote
The magic scroll/Four Winds textures getting messed up is a known issue that's being work on. It doesn't really have anything to do with how long you've been playing, it actually happens on every animated GUI (including Shamir's letters) if you Alt-tab, change resolution or switch between windowed/fullscreen

Thanks for the clarification, and glad to hear it's being worked on.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: jsh357 on October 15, 2010, 05:16:16 PM
Hey all, just finished the first two episodes myself.  I just found out the project had been revived after giving up checking on it at the C&D notice.  

I'm pretty impressed that it came out so well.  

Aesthetically, my only true complaint is the faces.  They need a lot of improvement, and I'm sorry but I just can't sugarcoat that.  Valanice and Rosella look the worst of the lot; just ugly as sin.  On the bright side, I thought the rest of the game looked great!  I got a huge nostalgia rush walking through the Land of the Green Isles, and the storm looked amazing.  I loved the birds and water in the intro.  So good show, and if the faces looked smoother I would probably give the graphics an 8 or 9 out of 10.  The music is incredible and I have no criticisms.  Some of the VA is mediocre, but about as good as can be expected in an amateur game.  It was so awesome to hear Graham's original voice actor playing him again!

In terms of the plot and canon compliance, I don't think it could have been done much better.  Obviously, the story is trying to be a bit more mature (got to end the story after all, right), and the characters were never fully fleshed out to begin with, so I don't have any complaints about times where people felt out of character.  I'm thrilled to finally be getting some closure on the Black Cloak Society!  I think any true fan would be.  Valanice seems to be horribly useless, but this is nothing new.

I did run in to a bug, and I don't know what caused it.  The game just crashed on me when I was loading up the sailing menu from the Isle of Wonder.  I'm on Windows 7, not using the patch.  Other than that I didn't run in to any problems, although the camera angles in the Isle of the Crown hid the market square from me entirely.  (I only found out about it via these forums)

Overall, it was a great experience and I look forward to Episode 3.  Thanks for bringing this story back!
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Cez on October 15, 2010, 08:43:34 PM
Heh, that wasn't the original actor who voiced King Graham. That was Josh Mandel. This is Jason Victor :)

As for Valanice being useless.... you just wait for Episode 3 ;)

Thank you for your words and I'm glad you are enjoying it! :D
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on October 15, 2010, 09:01:13 PM
I'll actually go out on a limb here and say that, despite my old-school inclinations and various complaints about TSL, one thing that I like BETTER about it than the original games is the voice of Graham.  Nothing against Josh--I liked his voice as Graham, too--I just think Jason Victor is on a different level when it comes to acting quality.  So great choice of casting there, guys.  ;)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on October 15, 2010, 09:12:41 PM
So great choice of casting there, guys.  ;)

I completely agree here. His voice fits the character model and dialog so perfectly that Graham felt completely natural to me while playing. The voice felt like King Graham, not of an actor playing King Graham.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: jsh357 on October 15, 2010, 10:41:44 PM
Whoah really?  I thought it was a spot-on performance then!  Very true to his original voice.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: crayauchtin on October 16, 2010, 12:02:17 AM
I'll actually go out on a limb here and say that, despite my old-school inclinations and various complaints about TSL, one thing that I like BETTER about it than the original games is the voice of Graham.  Nothing against Josh--I liked his voice as Graham, too--I just think Jason Victor is on a different level when it comes to acting quality.  So great choice of casting there, guys.  ;)
Absolutely agree -- Josh Mandel did a wonderful job but Jason Victor.... I kind of want him to be rerecorded over all the other games. And all the fan-games! Is that heretical? :P
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on October 16, 2010, 07:19:57 AM
I LOVE Jason's voice as Graham. He was one of the actors at the auditions that we were like all in agreement on pretty much right away!
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on October 16, 2010, 09:58:08 AM
Josh has a great voice as well, definitely.  In fact, he's doing a wonderful cameo for us in SQ2VGA.  I think you guys will get a real kick out of where we use him.  It totally fits his vocal style.  ;)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: waltzdancing on October 16, 2010, 04:28:54 PM
YAY!!! I'm totally going to get that game now!
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Cat1 on October 16, 2010, 07:58:35 PM
We do intend to have the future episodes downloadable on their own, and release any updates for previous episodes simply as patches instead of packaging them all together.

Just wanted to say please, please do!  That would be awesome, as downloading TSL takes a large percentage of my monthly internet plan!  I was a bit worried when I found that I had to download episode 1 again when I downloaded episode 2!  Maybe internet is cheaper in America or wherever you all are - I'm just a poor New Zealander  ;)

Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on October 16, 2010, 08:06:20 PM
You have a data plan for your home internet? I'm so sorry.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Enchantermon on October 16, 2010, 08:47:06 PM
Maybe internet is cheaper in America or wherever you all are - I'm just a poor New Zealander  ;)
One of my friends live up in the mountains in Oregon and the only way he can get internet is through a satellite provider with a data plan. It does happen in the US, though it's usually just the more isolated areas afaik.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: waltzdancing on October 16, 2010, 10:31:31 PM
Maybe internet is cheaper in America or wherever you all are - I'm just a poor New Zealander  ;)

Ouch! I didn't know that some places couldn't get internet. I thought it was plug in a cord and go.  ;]
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Cat1 on October 17, 2010, 04:43:33 PM
Wow - thanks for the sympathy  :D  I can get internet easily enough - it just costs a bit, and being a miserly student I can only afford a cheap home internet plan - 2gb per month... pretty awesome eh   ;D
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on October 17, 2010, 05:15:54 PM
That's terrible, I would never survive under such conditions.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Cat1 on October 17, 2010, 05:46:01 PM
Thanks kindofdoon  :)  It's ok though - NZ has other attractions  8)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on October 17, 2010, 05:50:31 PM
That's definitely true - you're pretty lucky to live in such a beautiful area.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: drunkenmonkey on October 17, 2010, 05:58:02 PM
That's definitely true - you're pretty lucky to live in such a beautiful area.
If you like snakes and scorpions and spiders and crocodiles and.. did I miss anything.  ;D
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: tessspoon on October 17, 2010, 06:20:07 PM
It's ok though - NZ has other attractions  8)
Very true! :D I'd really like to visit down there again sometime, so beautiful!
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Enchantermon on October 17, 2010, 06:57:02 PM
If you like snakes and scorpions and spiders and crocodiles and.. did I miss anything.  ;D
Not just snakes...POIsonous snakes. XD
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on October 17, 2010, 06:59:37 PM
:watchout: Luckily, all the snakes are nonPOIsonous where I live. :)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Cat1 on October 17, 2010, 08:21:16 PM
Yep it is very beautiful  :)  Drunkenmonkey you were joking right?  NZ has a distinct lack of snakes (poisonous or otherwise), scorpions, crocodiles and KQ fans!  We do have owls though  ;D
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Arkillian on November 15, 2010, 02:15:45 PM
I'm not sure if any of this was brought up, but I wasn't too happy that alot of things were being bought with gold and how. The map I understood, the mermaids I dealt with (Poor things- they got a pretty necklace and lost it :( ) the lollies I got, but then everything else, specially the ferry guy was bought with money also. I've always liked how the King's quests didn't include gold that much except as a mundane item. I feel that if it can be avoided, it should be :( Otherwise, I'm very happy :) The game is fun to play. PArt 2 is better now there's more gaming stuff to do. The plot starting to unravel finally is going to make it an intence wait for part 3 >.< I hope I don't have to wait too long!  :-[
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on November 15, 2010, 02:35:42 PM
I'm not sure if any of this was brought up, but I wasn't too happy that alot of things were being bought with gold and how. The map I understood, the mermaids I dealt with (Poor things- they got a pretty necklace and lost it :( ) the lollies I got, but then everything else, specially the ferry guy was bought with money also. I've always liked how the King's quests didn't include gold that much except as a mundane item. I feel that if it can be avoided, it should be :( Otherwise, I'm very happy :) The game is fun to play. PArt 2 is better now there's more gaming stuff to do. The plot starting to unravel finally is going to make it an intence wait for part 3 >.< I hope I don't have to wait too long!  :-[

We're working on it like fiends, believe me.  And rest assured, Episode 3 is going to require quite a lot more flexibility and variety in the use and purposes of inventory items.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Arkillian on November 15, 2010, 02:48:25 PM
We're working on it like fiends, believe me.  And rest assured, Episode 3 is going to require quite a lot more flexibility and variety in the use and purposes of inventory items.

Sorry- I know that some of this is stuff that would've been fixed for Episode 3, It's just something that I noticed with the game. I wished that the Ferry wasn't bought out, rather his crew refused to sail or something else without payment. It made him seem less loyal to the crown. IT was the only thing I could fault thoguh. The Black widow was very creepy  :o Jollo's trick got a 'ZOMG' out of me XD And Prince Alexander is as charming as ever <3 I'm very glad that Silver Lining didn't fade off due to red tape :)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on November 15, 2010, 02:51:57 PM
Welcome to the forums, Arkillian! Glad you're enjoying the game :)

There aren't actually that many puzzles that require using the coins in the game, but the way it shook out when the game was divided into episodes, they just all ended up in the same one, so it does look disproportionate. But yes, the puzzles coming up will see far less use of that handy bag of gold!
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Arkillian on November 15, 2010, 03:17:59 PM
Welcome to the forums, Arkillian! Glad you're enjoying the game :)

There aren't actually that many puzzles that require using the coins in the game, but the way it shook out when the game was divided into episodes, they just all ended up in the same one, so it does look disproportionate. But yes, the puzzles coming up will see far less use of that handy bag of gold!

Hey- thanks :) I've been following on Deviantart, but that hasn't been updated. I got reminded of the game when a friend in Aussy commented on one of my King's Quest fan arts from 6 years back. I remembered how much I enjoyed playing the games and went back to them, then I remembered this game. I played the demo, but I was waiting for something to come of all the red tape D: I never realized that 2 episodes had been released without me knowing XD

It's cool- I figured it was a one episode scare. It was mostly a shock to me, that's all. I look forward to future episodes to see what happens with the plot :D I'm very interested to see how Alexander's interest in magic plays out (Not because I'm a diehard Alexander fangirl or anything <3 It actually is an interesting twist of his character for me)

I liked the play on the hole in the wall- second use for it <3
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on November 15, 2010, 07:34:07 PM
I liked the play on the hole in the wall- second use for it <3

What was the first use?
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Arkillian on November 15, 2010, 07:39:39 PM
I liked the play on the hole in the wall- second use for it <3

What was the first use?

To look through in KQ6 ^^; I never thought of it as an ACTUAL hole in the wall. I guess I didn't think enough about how cool that critter was. IT's an interesting touch :)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on November 15, 2010, 07:42:22 PM
Oh, yes, I thought you meant in TSL. Yes, agreed, it was a nice new twist.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: calmlunatic on November 22, 2010, 06:03:51 PM
It was very refreshing. After getting a hint for how to get the deadly liquid, I was in the correct mindset of how to get the other two items.

One bug though: After I gave the candy to the kid, I tried to follow him right (off-screen). Graham disappeared to the right and was not able to come back.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on November 22, 2010, 06:24:01 PM
That is a known bug with no easy solution in our implementation of the game engine. It would require loading a new map exactly the same as the first one, except with the small gap where the boy runs through closed. The map cannot be easily changed in real-time.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: snabbott on November 22, 2010, 06:55:30 PM
I'm not sure...
I think it should be possible to restrict the walking area so that Graham can't go places he shouldn't. A lot of times, when Graham can't come back, it's because he has fallen through the ground/floor.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on November 22, 2010, 06:57:07 PM
That is a known bug with no easy solution in our implementation of the game engine. It would require loading a new map exactly the same as the first one, except with the small gap where the boy runs through closed. The map cannot be easily changed in real-time.

Are my eyes deceiving me or is this really an official team response of "we know about it, but we aren't going to try and fix it because it's hard?"   :o
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on November 22, 2010, 08:00:19 PM
Fixing the bug would be easy, but it would require implementing a virtually unnecessary loading screen, which would detract more from gameplay than it would add. It is a simple decision when you weigh the costs and gains, considering how rarely the bug is encountered by the average player.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: calmlunatic on November 23, 2010, 12:26:20 PM
Fixing the bug would be easy, but it would require implementing a virtually unnecessary loading screen, which would detract more from gameplay than it would add. It is a simple decision when you weigh the costs and gains, considering how rarely the bug is encountered by the average player.

One thing I noticed was that when I/Graham walked towards the lighthouse, I went back towards the city. Could this same technique be applied?
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on November 23, 2010, 12:31:11 PM
I'm not sure about that one.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on November 23, 2010, 02:41:22 PM
Fixing the bug would be easy, but it would require implementing a virtually unnecessary loading screen, which would detract more from gameplay than it would add. It is a simple decision when you weigh the costs and gains, considering how rarely the bug is encountered by the average player.

One thing I noticed was that when I/Graham walked towards the lighthouse, I went back towards the city. Could this same technique be applied?

It seems like the problem with that one is that the whole back of the area is defined as an exit to the previous town screen, when really, it should only be the path that takes you there.  Add to that the fact that the lighthouse is a prominent part of the scenery and seems like an interesting place to explore, and it turns into an issue that most players end up experiencing at least once.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: snabbott on November 23, 2010, 03:53:27 PM
Fixing the bug would be easy, but it would require implementing a virtually unnecessary loading screen, which would detract more from gameplay than it would add. It is a simple decision when you weigh the costs and gains, considering how rarely the bug is encountered by the average player.
So... I don't know quite how the walking area area works, but I don't think it has to affect NPCs. I don't see any reason the walking area couldn't be changed to prevent Graham from going there (and toward the lighthouse, as well) without loading anything extra. Am I misunderstanding the functionality?
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: kindofdoon on November 23, 2010, 05:26:35 PM
I'm not sure, really. I was just relaying how Weldon explained the bug. As for the lighthouse, the path should be made narrower to prevent the player from walking too much off the path, especially to the extent that they think they're going to the lighthouse and end up in the village instead. I'm not sure why it is how it is at the moment.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: calmlunatic on November 23, 2010, 07:04:14 PM
If I might make a suggestion for future episodes...

In the previous games during conversations, you could left click to go to the next line of dialogue and right click to skip to the next important part of dialogue (one you need to listen to to get information on how to advance in the game), or skip the entire conversation completely. I noticed that you can skip cutscenes entirely but this wasn't really what I was referring to.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Cez on November 23, 2010, 08:13:21 PM
If I might make a suggestion for future episodes...

In the previous games during conversations, you could left click to go to the next line of dialogue and right click to skip to the next important part of dialogue (one you need to listen to to get information on how to advance in the game), or skip the entire conversation completely. I noticed that you can skip cutscenes entirely but this wasn't really what I was referring to.

We've considered it, and been wanting to implement it for a while, but it's a little more complicated that it sounds because of how our sequence handler is built. You could end up skipping over a variable or a sequence that needs to happen and it would require a lot of testing to the new episode plus the past episodes. So, we'll consider it again, but I wouldn't count on this one, even though we want it too.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on December 01, 2010, 05:32:55 AM
I have a curious question about the Hole in the Wall.

Graham return to the Isle of Sacred Mountain to pick up the Flower and he knows the Winged Ones told him to stay away, so how would Graham know on what to do next if he used the invisibility Cloak and couldent get the Cup out of the Closet, even knowing the Cloak would only work once.

the Point im trying to make is, why cant Graham pick up the Flower and then the Hole in the Wall comes tumbling down the Stairs, begging to be taken Home.

What would be the Point anyway of going up the stairs if theres No Quest thing to be done, yet i read that we will be flying in an Air Balloon to the Winged One City.

So in Conlusion, cant you guys Change the way that the Hole in the Wall should come to Graham instead.  :P
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: snabbott on December 01, 2010, 03:17:21 PM
It's always a good idea to revisit locations to see if anything has changed. I don't remember hearing that we're going to be riding in a hot air balloon.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: daventry on December 02, 2010, 01:56:16 AM
It said so in one of those Four Winds Interview about two guys with a Hot Air Balloon and then we would be able to go to the Winged one City ;)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on December 02, 2010, 06:16:51 AM
There was an article about the Mountgo Brothers Balloon Service, and separately from that we confirmed that you will see the Winged One City. We never said just how you'll get there, however. :)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: wilco64256 on December 02, 2010, 08:20:36 AM
I have a curious question about the Hole in the Wall.

Graham return to the Isle of Sacred Mountain to pick up the Flower and he knows the Winged Ones told him to stay away, so how would Graham know on what to do next if he used the invisibility Cloak and couldent get the Cup out of the Closet, even knowing the Cloak would only work once.

the Point im trying to make is, why cant Graham pick up the Flower and then the Hole in the Wall comes tumbling down the Stairs, begging to be taken Home.

What would be the Point anyway of going up the stairs if theres No Quest thing to be done, yet i read that we will be flying in an Air Balloon to the Winged One City.

So in Conlusion, cant you guys Change the way that the Hole in the Wall should come to Graham instead.  :P

I think it's a safe bet that pretty much everybody will go up the stairs.  The Winged Ones didn't say Graham isn't allowed to come to the gates, in fact they specifically said that he could come back if he could find a way so naturally I expect most everybody to go up those stairs at some point.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: writerlove on December 13, 2010, 03:26:02 PM
I just watched some of a play through for episode 2. I'm excited for 3 now :) I forgot how heart wrenching the end is.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: razor436 on January 05, 2011, 09:38:32 AM
I generally enjoyed the second episode as I enjoyed the first. The storytelling and writing continues to be superb, voice acting is decent at worst, and I got my first taste of puzzles.

Praise for:




Now for the things I did not like.


I am fine with the voice of the narrator, but I get annoyed when she makes a funny  or says anything that breaks the game immersion, such as references to Roberta, Gabriel Knight, and that Graham is a character in a game.

While I praise the writing, there are two choice of words I found inappropriate: "comatose" and "supernatural". To me, comatose sounds medical and supernatural sounds scientific which I would associate with modern society. I'd prefer something along the lines of "in a deep sleep" and "magical".

I also wish there was a true pause feature: one that actually paused narrator and character dialogue audio (and preferably music as well).

When I bought candy, I was promised one of each.I counted six kinds on the stand, but I counted only four in my inventory. FOUR! And even if we pretend Graham took one for himself to taste, that leave me with ONE MISSING CANDY! I must maintain my calm.

Wait. There will be no KQX?  :o [insert negative comments here]
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Cez on January 08, 2011, 04:32:01 AM
thanks for the comments and feedback!!! :D
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: razor436 on January 08, 2011, 12:21:30 PM
There was one thing I forgot to mention. Although not exactly necessary, it would be nice to have a true pause feature, i.e. the game, music, and cut-scenes pause as well as narrator and character voices. I just hate it when something comes up that forces me to leave my computer during an important cut-scene.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Graham Cracker on January 27, 2011, 07:55:46 PM
...
For some reason, when ever the fountain is upon my screen in the market place, my game slows down considerably.
...

I get the same problem.  It's almost too slow to play at this point.  Once I walk off the screen, the game speeds up again.  I even dumbed down the resolution to 800 x 600, 16 bit color, and unchecked all the graphics options, but it's the same choppiness happening there.

Love the game, by the way ... especially, "What can you tell me about ... voodoo"... hahah
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on January 27, 2011, 09:26:46 PM
Have you guys tried lowering the graphics level?

The Green Isles market slows down even on my computer, it's just such a big scene with so many animations going on.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Johnrl21 on February 04, 2011, 05:14:21 AM
Hey guys....Thanks for doing the project and considering it's volunteer work, it's damn good.

Things I really liked:

The quality of music, voices, and artwork.  Great stuff

The teaser puzzles which lead me to believe some really clever ones might be forthcoming in ep. 3 and so forth.

Bringing the story back and making the character believable.

Things I didn't like as much:

It might be just a bug on my part, but the graphics on my map don't really work sometimes.  It will just be sections of color instead of the item lists.(but that's minor)

My main negative feedback so far is the amount of exposition there is.  There are A LOT of long conversations which isn't really characteristic of the series so far.  I was trying to think back to any game where there were this many long conversations about not-so-relevant things in a KQ game.  I don't want to skip them because I'm afraid I'll miss the important part. haha


Overall, great job so far.  I can't wait for the next episode!
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on February 04, 2011, 09:11:58 AM
I like to think of it as King's Quest with Gabriel Knight length conversations.  ;)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: dark-daventry on February 04, 2011, 10:17:22 AM
My main negative feedback so far is the amount of exposition there is.  There are A LOT of long conversations which isn't really characteristic of the series so far.  I was trying to think back to any game where there were this many long conversations about not-so-relevant things in a KQ game.  I don't want to skip them because I'm afraid I'll miss the important part. haha

If you go into settings, you can turn on short narrations. Doing so will cut down on all the exposition. You still get all the juicy plot stuff, but the amount of other narrations have been shortened.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Lambonius on February 04, 2011, 02:28:43 PM
My main negative feedback so far is the amount of exposition there is.  There are A LOT of long conversations which isn't really characteristic of the series so far.  I was trying to think back to any game where there were this many long conversations about not-so-relevant things in a KQ game.  I don't want to skip them because I'm afraid I'll miss the important part. haha

If you go into settings, you can turn on short narrations. Doing so will cut down on all the exposition. You still get all the juicy plot stuff, but the amount of other narrations have been shortened.

I honestly didn't notice much of a difference with Short Narrations selected.  But then, I didn't go out of my way to click on extraneous stuff my second time through.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Cez on February 04, 2011, 05:11:49 PM
I like to think of it as King's Quest with Gabriel Knight length conversations.  ;)

That's probably a good way to think of it :)

I honestly don't know where I stand on this issue anymore. I tend to believe it's very "fan-service" to get a chance to talk to these characters and learn a little more about them and the way they think about the things they went through. They work to me in the sense that you do learn about the story through them. Episode 3 delves into the past of the series, so it's good to have a refreshment of what happened for those that don't remember well.

One thing I would have fixed is the fact that some of these characters are just conversation, and you don't do anything puzzle wise with them. This is actually one of the things Katie and I are fixing with Episode 5 since we are writing the whole thing just now, fresh after all the feedback, and with almost 10 more years in our bags (The majority of this stuff was written in our early 20s, and Episode 5 is being written in our early 30s). We are dropping the fan service for episode 5 and making it about just the necessary things that need to happen. There's still a lot of exposition because this is where we reveal most of the stuff that's going on, but it will be centered on just what's important to talk about to understand the story, and some minor character development.

Episode 5 to me will be more centered on the adventure, and the exploration of the lands with the necessary cutscenes interloped with the gameplay in order to wrap the story up. But we are trying to keep our conversations (and narrations) more revolved around the actual gameplay.
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: dark-daventry on February 04, 2011, 05:25:05 PM
I like to think of it as King's Quest with Gabriel Knight length conversations.  ;)

That's probably a good way to think of it :)

I honestly don't know where I stand on this issue anymore. I tend to believe it's very "fan-service" to get a chance to talk to these characters and learn a little more about them and the way they think about the things they went through. They work to me in the sense that you do learn about the story through them. Episode 3 delves into the past of the series, so it's good to have a refreshment of what happened for those that don't remember well.

One thing I would have fixed is the fact that some of these characters are just conversation, and you don't do anything puzzle wise with them. This is actually one of the things Katie and I are fixing with Episode 5 since we are writing the whole thing just now, fresh after all the feedback, and with almost 10 more years in our bags (The majority of this stuff was written in our early 20s, and Episode 5 is being written in our early 30s). We are dropping the fan service for episode 5 and making it about just the necessary things that need to happen. There's still a lot of exposition because this is where we reveal most of the stuff that's going on, but it will be centered on just what's important to talk about to understand the story, and some minor character development.

Episode 5 to me will be more centered on the adventure, and the exploration of the lands with the necessary cutscenes interloped with the gameplay in order to wrap the story up. But we are trying to keep our conversations (and narrations) more revolved around the actual gameplay.

OMG cez, you're making me want to play ep 5 RIGHT NOW! XD Any chance I could weasel my way into the writing process?  ::) (Wishful thinking, I know)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Cez on February 04, 2011, 07:05:22 PM
let me correct something... There's actually a LOT of fan service in ep5, but it's there with a purpose :)
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: Nilan8888 on February 09, 2011, 07:46:28 PM
Just finished this last night. Last I had checked in Activision had shut down TSL so I'm so happy you guys got this thing off the ground.

Thoughts on what I've seen -- I mix the good with the bad in reviews: this is how I used to do it reviewing shortstories in my writing groups...

-The humor here is great, especially in Ep.II... but I think it deserves a mention to notice where most of it is coming from: Hassan, the Hole in the Wall, Graham's reactions... that is, the characters. Or rather, originating in-game.

This is my way of saying that yes, the complaints on the narrarator are substantiated, as no doubt has been heard. However I think it's not that narrator sequences go on too LONG, but that too many of them go on for too long. Some of the longer sequences would probably have worked great as they were, but there were too many pedestrian descriptions which went 2, or 3 lines. Even 4.

I'm wondering -- are you guys maybe working from a estimation on how much you should put in based on description lengths of past King's Quest games? Based on how your engine is working, I'm wondering if that's the best way to go: the original games tended to differ in two respects:

1 - In most cases the descriptions were not audio

2 - The descriptions when written were given to you more 'in-bulk'. That is, you could see to a greater degree how much text was forthcoming. There was probably fewer multi-box descriptions on account of that.

I think this is key based on your interface. I think what's going on is people are seeing what's written on the screen and the narrator is talking, but there's less on the screen then would have been in the original game. And much of what's written is self-contained. Therefore the player will often think a description is done... only to reveal there are two or three more lines to go instead.

So part of that makes it feel longer. Yes, it is partly that the descriptions could be trimmed: but ALSO it's that if you're reading along with the narration (and many do because otherwise they might miss something a lot easier), it can feel longer. The same way going somewhere feels longer when you don't know where you're going: since you don't know when the narration will end, it feels like a longer time when you get there.


- The conversations: I understand the reason for having these conversations, but the most in-depth ones didn't advance the plot. The Oberon and Titania one from the 1st episode is probably the key here: after going through it and looking back, I felt that I had not advanced the plot, nor come to view it in a different light.

The Edgar conversation did have something to it, so this was an improvement. I still think it was too long, but it became important when talking about Edgar seeing the scars on Alexander's back.

The Shamir conversation was much more key, but I did sort of find the plot crashing in suddenly and that Shamir had too many answers at-hand. We were being told too much of the story, and not shown. Mind you, it's not like this compares badly to the original KQ games: you guys are actually trying something those games never did, which is to actually worldbuild. I enjoy Roberta's series, but I'm not sure I would term what she did world-building: she laid down great places for her story to take place, but TSL is to King's Quest as is Babylon 5 or Battlestar Galactica to Star Trek TNG, where the former two are more closely tied together with one thing affecting the other, and the other more episodic: it's not a Tabula Rasa every TNG episode or every King's Quest game, but there's very little looking back or questioning by the character of what has gone on before unless it immediately affected what was going on.

A friend once put it to me this way. "In Star Trek they will find a great alien artifact with incredible properties that they will hand over to the Federation and you'll never hear about it again. In Babylon 5, they will actually remember that they have that thing, and use it later".

I was once lucky enough to have my writing looked at by Sherwood Smith, a skilled writer in her won right. As she told me, and as Stephen King correctly lays out in "On Writing" (and BTW, I'm not even a particular fan of Stephen King's work -- I get as bored as anyone with yet ANOTHER tale set in a small and sleepy town in Maine -- but this is bang-on educational stuff), always tell what you can in less words. Cesar, if you or Katie are reading, I would definitely recommend this book to you both. To anyone writing pretty much anything. He lays out his points very well on language, grammar, structure, and essentially developing your writer's toolbox, as he calls it.

- The puzzles are actually fine for how hard they are... I think what people are looking for is new and creative ways to implement them. I actually do not mind at ALL that the coin bag was used often. It was not used all the time, and frankly a bag of gold is a handy thing to have. Yeah, if it felt like every puzzle came back to that bag, I can understand frustration, but I think the ratio worked out well. I actually was quite tired of the opposite: every puzzle was solved with exactly one item which you then lost. I think it's fitting for inventory items to stay with you and be used more than once.

That said though, I think part of the fun will be putting players in innovative situations. EP II felt like a step in the right direction. let's see how it goes.

Most of the rest was fine or at times, really great. Water bottles and necklaces... eeh, it's an adventure game: I don't think much of anyone really notices. You definately SHOULD try to have as good explanations as you can for everything, but that's making a good game great using the ol' "Checkov's Gun" logic, not making a good game bad. As long as what you find lying around is something that would conceivably be there.

Good luck guys. Heh, I think I need an Phoenix Online studios of my own to make games out of MY stories...
Title: Re: Episode 2 - CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (No fighting, please!)
Post by: KatieHal on February 09, 2011, 08:18:41 PM
Welcome to the forums Nilan! Thanks for your feedback. :) We always appreciate the support and knowing how we can make out games better in the future.