"You can't say I didn't warn you about getting in over your head, Graham." OK, but you didn't warn me about these.
Obviously, death is not as serious an issue in this game as it is in some others due to that convenient "retry" button, which I do appreciate. However, there are still a couple of death traps in this episode that bothered me.
First trap:
[spoiler]The black widow's web. I naturally assumed all the attractions were inside the Four Winds building, so I held off paying attention to detail until I entered the room. I certainly wasn't looking out for death traps on the outside. But since Graham didn't simply walk into what first looked like an open doorway, I looked again and saw what I thought was a half-door on the lower part of the doorway. When I clicked the hand icon on the wooden counter, Graham suddenly started poking at a spider web I never saw and died.[/spoiler]
This one would be easy enough to fix. Just
[spoiler]make separate messages for the hand on the top and bottom halves of the doorway. The eye icon does already, so it makes sense.[/spoiler]
Second trap:
[spoiler]The recess holding the gate key. Enough said.[/spoiler]
I have two problems with this trap (and any other no-warning trap like it), despite the existence of a "retry" button:
1) I did not feel like I actually made a mistake. It just felt like a "haha, i gotcha" message from the developers. Maybe you did, but you might as well periodically drop an anvil on Graham's head for no reason and be done with it. There is no warning in either case. Remember the infamous "invisible hole in the boat" puzzle in King's Quest V? This falls under that category.
2) It detracts from the realism. Why is Graham going through all that trouble? Why is he
[spoiler]dropping coins to attract a magnet over to the key instead of just taking it?[/spoiler]
Because he died on his previous attempt? How does he know? The only evidence that it's a trap is the death itself.
Fixing this one wouldn't be too hard either. Just give a warning of some sort without actually triggering the trap. Usually a warning comes in two forms:
1) It's implicit from the situation. Obviously, walking into the sea is not a good idea. It would also seem unwise to
[spoiler]stiff powerful mythical creatures.[/spoiler]
In this case, you could for example
[spoiler]make the trap door itself visible, perhaps with a spring mechanism or something.[/spoiler]
2) There is a direct warning from the narration or dialog. This is somewhat rare, but it does occasionally occur in KQ6. For example, trying to open the guard room door in the castle basement the first time gets the narration, "Alexander can hear the clear sound of guard dog voices coming from behind the door. He decides opening the door wouldn't be wise." Then only on the second click does he actually open the door and get caught. Another example would be throwing Rotten Tomato. The first time you click it on Stick, Bump gives you an explicit warning. Only when it's clicked on Stick a second time does Alex throw the tomato himself and ruin the game. (Yeah OK, neither of these actually cause death or even necessarily make the game impossible to complete, but they're the only examples I can think of at the moment.)
In this case, you could
[spoiler]on the first click, have Graham describe how it looks to him like a trap, or he or the narrator could warn by principle that Graham should be on guard here before sticking his hand in the wall. Then the second click would kill him.[/spoiler]
It's perfectly fine to have both types of warnings (walking into the sea is obviously dangerous but it also gets an explicit warning) or just one or the other, but having neither, to me, is a problem.
I acknowledge that KQ6 has some deaths without warnings too, but that doesn't mean they annoy me any less. The second trip to the Isle of the Mists unprepared, walking too close to the clinging vines, and probably a few others I don't recall off hand. These bother me too.
Now, you guys are saying you're done with Episode 2, so you're probably not going back to change anything and I can live with that. But I still wanted to give my opinion on this matter, because if anyone agrees with me, then I hope this will be given consideration for similar situations in future episodes.
Nope. I disagree. Death traps were something that were in the previous KQ games, and the fact that they're back make it feel closer to home.
Quote from: KQ5Fan on September 22, 2010, 04:43:36 AM
Nope. I disagree. Death traps were something that were in the previous KQ games, and the fact that they're back make it feel closer to home.
Well, if you want "closer to home", then maybe they should do away with the "retry" button and instead throw in some scenarios where the game is still playable but impossible to complete.
But if they did that, people would be here complaining!
:P
I agree - but the only one that really annoyed me was the "hand in the hole" trap.
100% of players will always die at that trap. As a narrative Graham should figure out it's a trap and then find a way to beat it all in the same timeline.
The retry button does help alleviate any frustration of a cheap death, but doesn't fix the logic behind the puzzle.
Quote from: rowee on September 22, 2010, 08:46:47 AM
I agree - but the only one that really annoyed me was the "hand in the hole" trap.
100% of players will always die at that trap. As a narrative Graham should figure out it's a trap and then find a way to beat it all in the same timeline.
The retry button does help alleviate any frustration of a cheap death, but doesn't fix the logic behind the puzzle.
Most of the testers actually did not die here, and I didn't even know you could die here for some time. Maybe I'm just used to trying to get things out in the open before trying to pick them up.
I didn't die there. (I figured out the magnetic part before the vine part, so it didn't even occur to me to try to get it out by hand).
I died there. As soon as I clicked the hand icon on the key I wanted to stop the action because I remembered the magnet. I was kicking myself, should have known better. :D
Quote from: wilco64256 on September 22, 2010, 08:59:29 AM
Quote from: rowee on September 22, 2010, 08:46:47 AM
I agree - but the only one that really annoyed me was the "hand in the hole" trap.
100% of players will always die at that trap. As a narrative Graham should figure out it's a trap and then find a way to beat it all in the same timeline.
The retry button does help alleviate any frustration of a cheap death, but doesn't fix the logic behind the puzzle.
Most of the testers actually did not die here, and I didn't even know you could die here for some time. Maybe I'm just used to trying to get things out in the open before trying to pick them up.
Well... because of Magnetic I assumed the trap. (nothing is useless in an adventure game! :) )
I will also come back and mention that on several rushed playthroughs for testing I made the mistake of trying to grab the key that way. So I didn't die there initially but did a number of times later.
I prefer the lack of warning deaths as opposed to the "Cedric-style" deaths when you do something wrong and THEN get warned when you can't do a thing about it.
No, shadyparadox is absolutely right. Graham should be able to figure out it's a trap before he gets killed. Trial and error deaths are lame and smack of weak game design. A specific message when clicking on the unblocked hole with the Look icon would be all it would have taken. "Upon closer examination of the hole, Graham notices the gears of an unknown mechanism in the back." Or something like that. Logic dictates that the player is going to try and pick up the key by hand once they solve the puzzle to get rid of the clinging vines. Anyone following standard logic WILL die here without warning. Lame lame lame.
Quote from: Lambonius on September 22, 2010, 01:50:05 PM
No, shadyparadox is absolutely right. Graham should be able to figure out it's a trap before he gets killed. Trial and error deaths are lame and smack of weak game design. A specific message when clicking on the unblocked hole with the Look icon would be all it would have taken. "Upon closer examination of the hole, Graham notices the gears of an unknown mechanism in the back." Or something like that. Logic dictates that the player is going to try and pick up the key by hand once they solve the puzzle to get rid of the clinging vines. Anyone following standard logic WILL die here without warning. Lame lame lame.
Adventure games are anything but logical. Plenty of people haven't died this way, and not every trap is always extremely obvious. Maybe this wasn't the best trap ever, but games do kill people in unexpected and unpredictable ways all the time.
And I really feel the fact that there's a "Retry" button available to take you back to before you died, thus saving you from even failing to 'save early, save often', rather negates a lot of it anyways. Even if you think the death is unfair, you immediately get to go back to before it happened.
I hope you guys understand where I'm coming from. I have no problem with having a death trap there. I do have a problem with the death itself being the only indication that it's a death trap.
Now, it looks like some people figure out the magnet part first (I assume they figured the magnet was the method to get around the vine), which gives them the message that the vine is in the way. So later when they figure out how to get past the vine, they think "OK, now I can use the magnet." But that doesn't fix it, in my opinion. Why punish those that figure out the vine before the magnet, and not the ones that figure out the magnet before the vine? Especially if the vine is supposed to be solved first anyway?
And I've already explained why it's still a problem despite the "retry" button. Here it is again:
Quote1) I did not feel like I actually made a mistake. It just felt like a "haha, i gotcha" message from the developers. Maybe you did, but you might as well periodically drop an anvil on Graham's head for no reason and be done with it. There is no warning in either case. Remember the infamous "invisible hole in the boat" puzzle in King's Quest V? This falls under that category.
2) It detracts from the realism. Why is Graham going through all that trouble? Why is he dropping coins to attract a magnet over to the key instead of just taking it? Because he died on his previous attempt? How does he know? The only evidence that it's a trap is the death itself.
I agree that it's an illogical and unpredictable death. For the most part, TSL avoids these; I look at the ones like this (and yes, there is at least one more that I know of) as an homage to the original KQ games.
Quote from: snabbott on September 22, 2010, 02:35:53 PM
I agree that it's an illogical and unpredictable death. For the most part, TSL avoids these; I look at the ones like this (and yes, there is at least one more that I know of) as an homage to the original KQ games.
true. only it doesn't ruin your game if you forget to save.
I save all the time though. really excessively with huge amounts of savegame files. (in the older games I would always run out and the games would complain at me before I was even half way through the game) :P
Quote from: wilco64256 on September 22, 2010, 01:54:43 PMAdventure games are anything but logical. Plenty of people haven't died this way, and not every trap is always extremely obvious. Maybe this wasn't the best trap ever, but games do kill people in unexpected and unpredictable ways all the time.
I'm not sure if you're trying to excuse a faulty design just because "everybody else is doing it" or what. Why hold yourself to the same standards when you can exceed them? Plus, no one's asking for the trap to be "extremely obvious". Any subtle clue, either visual or audible, would have fixed it. Then I'm the one at fault for falling for the trap, instead of being an innocent victim of unreason.
That's where we'll have to disagree then I suppose - I don't believe that it is faulty design to have something unexpected happen as the result of reaching into a random hole. Personally I always err on the side of caution in any game. Death sequences in earlier adventure games (like this one is patterned after) were frequently unexpected and often even amusing. If every death came with all kinds of warnings then there wouldn't be any point to them at all. Some examples:
KQ6 - try to go inland at the Isle of Wonder. Whether you're adequately prepared or not makes no difference, you'll be pinned into a life or death sequence far more complex than getting this key out with no warning at all.
KQ5 - Don't throw the shoe at the cat. Not only does it cause your death later, but there's also a good chance you may have to start the entire game over again if you don't have a wide variety of saves.
KQ1 - Go through the hole in the isolated area between the rivers without the mushroom, another warning-free game destroyer.
Space Quest - Dozens upon dozens of ways to die, typically with no warning at all that you're about to do something dangerous, despite it looking perfectly safe.
This isn't justification, I'm just stating that we're following an established pattern in adventure gaming that you shouldn't ever assume something is safe just because it appears that way.
QuoteKQ5 - Don't throw the shoe at the cat. Not only does it cause your death later, but there's also a good chance you may have to start the entire game over again if you don't have a wide variety of saves.
that was the worst thing in the whole game.
All the other stupid stuff in that game is amusing, that one is just stupid.
ruined my game many times.
There are few... so few ways to die in EP2 :(
I am fine with the death traps.
I find it ironic how there are grapes next to Graham when he gets caught in the key death trap. Why doesn't he eat them?
Quote from: Melook on September 22, 2010, 04:21:20 PM
I am fine with the death traps.
I find it ironic how there are grapes next to Graham when he gets caught in the key death trap. Why doesn't he eat them?
With Baby's Tears that actually cry, Rotten Tomatoes that actually insult you, and Iceberg Lettuce that is actually frozen, would you really want to test your luck with the grapes? :P
Besides, he'd still be stuck after eating the grapes. He'll survive just a little longer . . . only to die shortly after.
Quote from: atec123 on September 22, 2010, 03:52:05 PM
QuoteKQ5 - Don't throw the shoe at the cat. Not only does it cause your death later, but there's also a good chance you may have to start the entire game over again if you don't have a wide variety of saves.
that was the worst thing in the whole game.
All the other stupid stuff in that game is amusing, that one is just stupid.
ruined my game many times.
Fully agreed - I replayed that one a couple of weeks ago and made that very mistake, had to completely start over. We'll never have something like this in the game, that is just poor setup to allow gamers to progress through the game to a total dead end without any way of fixing it.
I see the OP's point that its a little unreasonable to kill us with no warning. I died there the first time. Even though the Mag Net was there, I saw no reason why I couldn't just take the key, since nothing indicated to me I might die if I did. After I died, THEN I started looking for the way around it. Honestly I am really surprised people would assume there was more to the puzzle, I would fully expect everyone to die there the first time.
However, this didn't really tick me off since there was a retry button. If I lost a half hour of play from the last time I saved, then I would be mad. I guess what I am saying is, its ok to have unreasonable deaths as long at that retry button is there!
Though I was a little annoyed when the spider killed me, considering I couldn't see it the web there at all, and I really wanted to talk to Bookworm!
Quote from: wilco64256 on September 22, 2010, 03:47:26 PM
That's where we'll have to disagree then I suppose - I don't believe that it is faulty design to have something unexpected happen as the result of reaching into a random hole.
I never said I minded "something unexpected". I said I minded instant death.
QuoteIf every death came with all kinds of warnings then there wouldn't be any point to them at all.
Which is why I said several times the problem could be fixed with something very subtle.
QuoteKQ6 - try to go inland at the Isle of Wonder. Whether you're adequately prepared or not makes no difference, you'll be pinned into a life or death sequence far more complex than getting this key out with no warning at all.
That's not a death trap. That's the beginning of the puzzle. Heck, if you're not prepared, you can still leave!
QuoteKQ5 - Don't throw the shoe at the cat. Not only does it cause your death later, but there's also a good chance you may have to start the entire game over again if you don't have a wide variety of saves.
This one has a dead end issue AFTER the rat is eaten; I'm sure you're already aware of the evils of dead ends. But the puzzle occurs between the sudden appearance and when the cat catches the rat, so it does not qualify as instant death, or even an instant dead end. Besides, they won't appear until Graham has at least one of the two items to throw at it, though I think many people aren't aware you can throw the stick.
QuoteKQ1 - Go through the hole in the isolated area between the rivers without the mushroom, another warning-free game destroyer.
Yeah. But then, it's KQ1.
QuoteSpace Quest - Dozens upon dozens of ways to die, typically with no warning at all that you're about to do something dangerous, despite it looking perfectly safe.
I know what you mean. Space Quest I desert. Enter the skull and find Orat; you have a chance to escape. Try that other little cave close by, and an unknown creature spits out your bones. I'm not a fan.
QuoteThis isn't justification, I'm just stating that we're following an established pattern in adventure gaming that you shouldn't ever assume something is safe just because it appears that way.
Based on your examples, I'm still not sure you understand the specific issue I'm raising. I don't believe it occurs in the KQ games (especially the later ones) nearly as often as you think.
On KQ6 if you trigger the gnomes you either send them packing or die, you can't just pull out the map and leave once they're on screen (I don't think, I could be wrong there).
You can trigger that dead end in KQ5 without ever seeing the rat sequence at all.
In KQ6 you can also enter the catacombs and get killed several different ways without ever even visiting the areas you need items from in order to complete them. The first time I played that game I had to backtrack to old saves and lose 30+ minutes of gameplay every time just because I was missing one item or another. That place is an instant death trap several different ways and once you're in you can't just leave again - you have to back up and reload.
Also if you return to the Isle of Mists a second time unprepared Alexander will die.
Just a couple of examples of deaths that are totally trial and error in nature in the later games.
In any event, we'll still have some deaths in later episodes that will likely catch some players off guard. Hence the retry option.
Yeah, as much as I think those type of deaths represent bad game design (in the old games, too), there definitely were quite a few in all the KQ games, even the later ones. I mean, the KQ6 labyrinth kills you instantly if you go the wrong direction in the maze. There's literally no way through it except trial and error save/reload exploration and manually mapping it out.
Quote from: Lambonius on September 22, 2010, 08:40:36 PM
Yeah, as much as I think those type of deaths represent bad game design (in the old games, too), there definitely were quite a few in all the KQ games, even the later ones. I mean, the KQ6 labyrinth kills you instantly if you go the wrong direction in the maze. There's literally no way through it except trial and error save/reload exploration and manually mapping it out.
Though I did notice - and not many people seem to catch this - that one of the graphics in the game manual actually is a general map of the catacombs. There are a few rooms that aren't quite right but generally it makes life much easier than doing the full map yourself from scratch.
QuoteOn KQ6 if you trigger the gnomes you either send them packing or die, you can't just pull out the map and leave once they're on screen (I don't think, I could be wrong there).
Actually, you can use the map to escape from any of the gnomes. When you come back, they'll just start their sequence all over from the beginning.
Quote from: Jafar on September 22, 2010, 08:54:38 PM
QuoteOn KQ6 if you trigger the gnomes you either send them packing or die, you can't just pull out the map and leave once they're on screen (I don't think, I could be wrong there).
Actually, you can use the map to escape from any of the gnomes. When you come back, they'll just start their sequence all over from the beginning.
Thanks, I wasn't actually totally sure about that one. The catacombs are far worse anyway.
Quote from: wilco64256 on September 22, 2010, 08:38:02 PM
On KQ6 if you trigger the gnomes you either send them packing or die, you can't just pull out the map and leave once they're on screen (I don't think, I could be wrong there).
False.
QuoteYou can trigger that dead end in KQ5 without ever seeing the rat sequence at all.
Also false. What?
QuoteIn KQ6 you can also enter the catacombs and get killed several different ways without ever even visiting the areas you need items from in order to complete them. The first time I played that game I had to backtrack to old saves and lose 30+ minutes of gameplay every time just because I was missing one item or another. That place is an instant death trap several different ways and once you're in you can't just leave again - you have to back up and reload.
If dead ends are part of the old games, and your only argument in favor of death traps is that they're in the old games, then why not put a few dead ends in TSL too? I asked this to the first response in the thread and it hasn't been addressed.
QuoteAlso if you return to the Isle of Mists a second time unprepared Alexander will die.
Yeah, this was my example earlier in the thread. I still find it rare in general though. And by "the later games", I mean it becomes more rare later on in the series. Aren't we all aware of how bad the overall logic is in KQ5? But by KQ7, the death traps are essentially gone. The only one I can think of is the cave in Etheria, which could have been fixed by simply giving the player a couple seconds to escape before the monster attacks.
QuoteJust a couple of examples of deaths that are totally trial and error in nature in the later games.
In any event, we'll still have some deaths in later episodes that will likely catch some players off guard. Hence the retry option.
I've already stated a couple times why the retry button doesn't completely fix it for me, though it is appreciated. That hasn't been addressed by anyone yet either.
It's already been addressed, just the answer isn't good enough for you apparently.
Death traps are a part of adventure games, and the retry button is there for the convenience of people that don't enjoy them. What do you want everyone to say?
Quote from: shadyparadox on September 23, 2010, 02:39:21 AM
Quote from: wilco64256 on September 22, 2010, 08:38:02 PMYou can trigger that dead end in KQ5 without ever seeing the rat sequence at all.
Also false. What?
no, this one is true. just don't go into that scene. also I am pretty sure that scene doesn't happen until you have the shoe, and I am pretty sure you can get stuck in the jail without ever finding the shoe.
Quote from: atec123 on September 23, 2010, 06:26:11 AM
Quote from: shadyparadox on September 23, 2010, 02:39:21 AM
Quote from: wilco64256 on September 22, 2010, 08:38:02 PMYou can trigger that dead end in KQ5 without ever seeing the rat sequence at all.
Also false. What?
no, this one is true. just don't go into that scene. also I am pretty sure that scene doesn't happen until you have the shoe, and I am pretty sure you can get stuck in the jail without ever finding the shoe.
How is "not going into that scene" a dead end? It's still there whether you see it or not. A dead end is when the game is impossible to complete. Simply not standing in the right spot when it's still available doesn't count.
Plus, as I said earlier, both the stick and the shoe work.
Quote from: shadyparadox on September 23, 2010, 01:53:47 PM
Quote from: atec123 on September 23, 2010, 06:26:11 AM
Quote from: shadyparadox on September 23, 2010, 02:39:21 AM
Quote from: wilco64256 on September 22, 2010, 08:38:02 PMYou can trigger that dead end in KQ5 without ever seeing the rat sequence at all.
Also false. What?
no, this one is true. just don't go into that scene. also I am pretty sure that scene doesn't happen until you have the shoe, and I am pretty sure you can get stuck in the jail without ever finding the shoe.
How is "not going into that scene" a dead end? It's still there whether you see it or not. A dead end is when the game is impossible to complete. Simply not standing in the right spot when it's still available doesn't count.
Plus, as I said earlier, both the stick and the shoe work.
because you are stuck and saved and can't go back. that is still a dead end.
I didn't know you could throw the stick. thanks for that tip
Quote from: shadyparadox on September 23, 2010, 01:53:47 PM
Quote from: atec123 on September 23, 2010, 06:26:11 AM
Quote from: shadyparadox on September 23, 2010, 02:39:21 AM
Quote from: wilco64256 on September 22, 2010, 08:38:02 PMYou can trigger that dead end in KQ5 without ever seeing the rat sequence at all.
Also false. What?
no, this one is true. just don't go into that scene. also I am pretty sure that scene doesn't happen until you have the shoe, and I am pretty sure you can get stuck in the jail without ever finding the shoe.
How is "not going into that scene" a dead end? It's still there whether you see it or not. A dead end is when the game is impossible to complete. Simply not standing in the right spot when it's still available doesn't count.
Plus, as I said earlier, both the stick and the shoe work.
What atec is saying (and my point as well) is that it is entirely possible for you to get trapped in that basement without ever even entering the scene with the cat and the rat at all. That's the dead end part - if the player gets into a life or death situation with no possible way to escape it qualifies as a dead end. You can also end up down there having saved the rat but without the hammer, so you're still unable to progress in the game and you end up having to load up an old save or restart the entire game if for some reason you don't have a savegame from before you dead-ended yourself.
If you haven't saved the rat then getting thrown in the inn's cellar instantly ends the game. There is no period of being able to control Graham with the false hope of escape.
Now, if you have saved the rat but do not have the hammer, then Graham will hang out in the cellar for a little while under your control, but after about a minute, a game over screen pops up. Technically, this is a dead end during this brief period, but the situation does look pretty bad, so it's clearly unwise to overwrite your old saved game.
It doesn't compare to the dead end you get when you let the cat catch the rat. It appears that not much of consequence happened, when in reality the game is ruined.
Worst dead end game ever? Codename: Iceman.
I'm not sure if I'm following this correctly -- but I don't think shadyparadox is arguing that there shouldn't be dead ends or that they're not a standard part of adventure games... I think he's arguing that, from a storytelling viewpoint, it makes no sense to have a death trap that can only be discovered by dying. Where is the character's logic here?
One fix, that would only take some extra animating but I don't think would necessarily need any more dialogue or narrative, would be to have Graham able to take his hand out the first time he tries to grab the key. If the player tries again, maybe the hand is a little more stuck and he dies that way.
Ultimately it just comes down to personal preference. We like these types of deaths, it keeps you on your toes. Makes you realize we're not making it easy for you and gets your mind thinking. For me its been part of adventure gaming since the early days and belongs in this type of game. The fact that we realized how annoying it could be and gave you the chance to retry is a bonus because we never had it that easy in the early days.
Yes if we wanted to be blatantly obnoxious we wouldn't have the Retry option at all and just expect people to save all the time. We still wanted to keep that surprise death element that was in the earlier games but without the frustration associated with losing a huge chunk of play time.
Quote from: crayauchtin on September 23, 2010, 10:45:01 PM
I'm not sure if I'm following this correctly -- but I don't think shadyparadox is arguing that there shouldn't be dead ends or that they're not a standard part of adventure games... I think he's arguing that, from a storytelling viewpoint, it makes no sense to have a death trap that can only be discovered by dying. Where is the character's logic here?
Yes. Thank you.
QuoteOne fix, that would only take some extra animating but I don't think would necessarily need any more dialogue or narrative, would be to have Graham able to take his hand out the first time he tries to grab the key. If the player tries again, maybe the hand is a little more stuck and he dies that way.
I don't even care how subtle the clue is. Take the KQ5 inn for example. Before you step further into the room, there are several descriptions with the Eye command that do not warn, but actually egg the player on. "Graham cannot quite understand what the men are saying. Perhaps if he moved a little closer...", "Graham cannot reach the dog from here", "The inn's dining room is just a few steps away," etc. The mere fact that the game insists you simply walk forward is suspicious, if you're observant enough to notice.
Quote from: Rick_Florez on September 23, 2010, 10:51:54 PM
Ultimately it just comes down to personal preference. We like these types of deaths, it keeps you on your toes. Makes you realize we're not making it easy for you and gets your mind thinking.
Sudden death without any chance to react does not involve more thinking than recognizing and interpreting subtle clues, it involves much less. And I can blame myself instead of you if I fail to heed the warnings.
Quote from: shadyparadox on September 24, 2010, 02:08:04 AM
Quote from: crayauchtin on September 23, 2010, 10:45:01 PM
I'm not sure if I'm following this correctly -- but I don't think shadyparadox is arguing that there shouldn't be dead ends or that they're not a standard part of adventure games... I think he's arguing that, from a storytelling viewpoint, it makes no sense to have a death trap that can only be discovered by dying. Where is the character's logic here?
Yes. Thank you.
I'd have to agree to an extent. I died by reaching into the cache where the key was kept without thinking much of it. I was wondering why there was no hint that suggested the alcove was a dangerous trap. I figured I would have needed the Mag-Gnat for something, but I didn't want to overlook anything. So I took each step as cautiously as I could (using Eye icon on everything), and winded up with my hand stuck in a wall.
While I would agree that the death was a disappointment, I can't exactly crucify the team for making an inconvenient death scene, when they followed up with a convenient "Retry" option. I agree though, that there was no logic involved in getting past the scene (just trial and error), and it seems like many people (while others were able to get past it) had trouble with this scene. But after I got past it, I kind of got over it.
Why is this such an issue? There has been only 1 death like this in both episodes. It's not like it's happening on every other screen.
QuoteOn KQ6 if you trigger the gnomes you either send them packing or die, you can't just pull out the map and leave once they're on screen (I don't think, I could be wrong there).
Yes, you can leave using the map. There is a about a 5 second period before they try to use their sense ability on Alexander.
I think Shady does have a point, though. There's no reason for Graham to manipulate the Magnat unless he knows it's a trap, and there's no way to know it's a trap unless you get killed by it. It's just kind of an awkward story bump.
At least with the boat in KQ5, there's a line about Graham noticing the hole and deciding to plug it with the beeswax. (Though Graham won't notice it when you use the look icon.)
Here, the only justifications I can think of are that Graham is REALLY paranoid, or he decided to be a fancy showoff and get the key in style. :P
Quote from: Jafar on September 24, 2010, 06:51:11 AM
I think Shady does have a point, though. There's no reason for Graham to manipulate the Magnat unless he knows it's a trap, and there's no way to know it's a trap unless you get killed by it. It's just kind of an awkward story bump.
EXACTLY the point shady and I were trying to make. It's not that random deaths are out of place--heck, I'm all for 'em. It's that this particular random death makes no sense from a story-telling standpoint. Graham is not psychic. He can't possibly figure out the solution to a problem before the problem ever even presents itself.
Quote from: Lambonius on September 24, 2010, 11:02:51 AM
Quote from: Jafar on September 24, 2010, 06:51:11 AM
I think Shady does have a point, though. There's no reason for Graham to manipulate the Magnat unless he knows it's a trap, and there's no way to know it's a trap unless you get killed by it. It's just kind of an awkward story bump.
EXACTLY the point shady and I were trying to make. It's not that random deaths are out of place--heck, I'm all for 'em. It's that this particular random death makes no sense from a story-telling standpoint. Graham is not psychic. He can't possibly figure out the solution to a problem before the problem ever even presents itself.
It's kind of like 'dramatic irony'. The player needs to know something to allow the character to proceed on the right path, when in a realistic situation, there's no way the character would know what to do. It's like when Alexander needed to get a lamp that looked like Shamir's lamp. The only way to know what Shamir's lamp looks like is to watch a cutscene. Alexander realistically had no idea what Shamir's lamp looks like, and made a really lucky guess. Clearly, this decision doesn't lead to Alexander's death (unless you forget to pick up a peppermint leaf).
It's also the most interesting look lamp, if you ask me. Like, if I were to randomly pick a lamp without seeing the cut scene (or remembering from the cut scene) that would be the one I would pick. In fact, that was how I did it the first time I played through KQ6. :P
However, Graham is not going to by chance lure the Magnat to the key. It's just not gonna happen. :P
I wouldn't go putting my hand in a hole. Who knows what is living there, especially when it was on the only stone missing. It practically screamed, "TRAP". Oh well, what tipped me off too was when you walked past it and the magnet tried to pick pocket you. :D
Quote from: waltzdancing on September 24, 2010, 10:41:19 PM
Oh well, what tipped me off too was when you walked past it and the magnet tried to pick pocket you. :D
Yeah--that was an obvious tip-off that the magnet was used for SOMETHING. EVENTUALLY. But not for the key in the hole. There was no indication that that was a trap. Seriously. Bad game design is bad game design. Why are we arguing about this? Random no-warning deaths were bad in the old games when they happened and they are bad here. End of story.
Graham may not be psychic, but he HAS been around the block several
times before and has faced strange and life-threatening situations in the
form of the seemingly harmless before. From Graham's perspective,
he's likely cautious in most situations... probably doubly so because
he's on the Isle of Wonder at that point. I agree that the key puzzle is
a little odd, but the mechanic of learning-by-death was in the original
games just as much as it is here. I'm not defending the mechanic,
because I'm not too fond of random deaths myself, but for some of
us it's a point of nostalgia just as much as the characters themselves.
The clue is a subtle one, but the logic follows fairly clearly for the puzzle
itself... luckily I made the connection prior to having Graham reach into
the hole, but I can see it being frustrating. I'll agree with one of the
previous posts that adding a small 'warning' scene if Graham reaches into
the hole with his hand would work well.
An extra scene wouldn't even be necessary. One specific look description that says that Graham notices mechanical bits in the back of the whole upon closer inspection would be all it would take. One line. :) It might even encourage players to stick their hand in the hole, kinda like KQ5 did by saying you needed to get closer to hear the innkeeper's conversation. Even if that caused MORE people to die, it would be better, because the clue, however subtle, was there. The idea of a subtle egging on of the player into a death situation would be even more in keeping with the older games, too, in my opinion.
Quote from: Lambonius on September 25, 2010, 09:35:51 AM
An extra scene wouldn't even be necessary. One specific look description that says that Graham notices mechanical bits in the back of the whole upon closer inspection would be all it would take. One line. :)
I'm partial to the idea of there being no explicit description of the mechanism, but instead only have a gear or two showing. That would take advantage of the game's unique closeup camera feature when using the Eye command.
Quote from: Lambonius on September 25, 2010, 09:35:51 AM
One line. :) It might even encourage players to stick their hand in the whole, kinda like KQ5 did by saying you needed to get closer to hear the innkeeper's conversation. Even if that caused MORE people to die, it would be better, because the clue, however subtle, was there. The idea of a subtle egging on of the player into a death situation would be even more in keeping with the older games, too, in my opinion.
this.
although I think it is kinda late for the voice acting stuffs, but maybe. that is a good idea.
I think it would have been a good idea, but I agree it's probably too late. I really don't have a problem with frustrating deaths, I'm just thinking from a storytelling point of view that's all.
Storytelling and game design is hard. ;)
I got one that I don't know was mentioned. The lamp in KQ5 and what to use on the witch if it weren't for pre-cognition of that scene.
Quote from: Eike on September 26, 2010, 08:42:13 AM
I got one that I don't know was mentioned. The lamp in KQ5 and what to use on the witch if it weren't for pre-cognition of that scene.
Oh yeah, that lamp one is terrible. KQ5 is filled with those "gotcha" moments. It's one of the game's primary weaknesses.
Ohhhhh yeahhhhhhh. That damn lamp!
I get what your complaining about now. And its true that there is noting that tells Graham that he should find a clever way of getting the key because otherwise he might die.
Its not unheard of in adventure games. There has always been this holy trinity between the main character, the narrator and the player where they seem to share ideas psychically among themselves because many times there is no way the main character could ever be that observant or have such foresight.
If you want to something really illogical how the heck do these characters carry around a closet full of stuff in their pockets. Leisure Larry 2 is a great example when you get the huge cup soda that's bigger than Larry and just shove it in your pocket comically.
Getting back to the death, I would leave the hand on hole killing without warning because I like catching the eager beavers off guard however you are right, the look at icon should at least give you a reason for it to be potentially dangerous.
KQ5 just had SO many WTF solutions. Honey and emeralds to lure out elves to escape the forest? Elves we'd never seen or heard of, much less knew what they liked to collect? Wha?? Cheese will turn on the wand machine? Yetis destroyed by pie?
One dead-ender there that I never knew about til I watched an LP was that you can pay to see Madam Mushka with the golden needle instead of a coin, and then you're screwed because you can't get the cloak for the mountains. Although the LPer stopped recording at that point, since he was in a no-win game, but I always wondered if maybe you could then pay for the cloak with the gold coin instead. That would've been an acceptable work around.
Rick, that's not illogical http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HyperspaceArsenal at all. :P
Quote from: KatieHal on September 26, 2010, 11:16:05 AM
One dead-ender there that I never knew about til I watched an LP was that you can pay to see Madam Mushka with the golden needle instead of a coin, and then you're screwed because you can't get the cloak for the mountains.
That's exactly what happened when I played KQV for the first time.
Can't you also use a gold coin to buy the cloak though? I mean, the tailor says it costs a gold coin. So if you give the golden needle to the gypsies, you can still buy the cloak, right?
PS That tailor is the most offensive thing in any KQ, and the fact the companion named him "Tailor Fey" did not help. :P ::)
"I hope I don't meet any offensive stereotypes while I'm here!"
And yeah, I always knew you could pay the tailor with a gold coin, what I wasn't sure about was if the gypsies would take a needle. XD
Yeah, the gold coin and needle are interchangable like the boot and stick. You can also buy stuff with the golden heart, which actually WILL get you in trouble. :P
...Well that's just cold. XD
Hehe I know of the subspace explaination for this kind of stuff. Its been used in Transformers to explain things like where does Prime's trailer go and why can Megatron change his mass.
Subspace makes more sense in Space Quest or sci-fiction and I'm sure we'll be using that excuse in C9 at some point. For King's Quest I tend to go with the magical approach much like the Legend of Zelda Cartoons used to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yYohAySKm4&feature=related at around 3:47
As for Leisure Suit Larry I just assume he had huge holds in his pockets that allowed him to put stuff in the gaps between the inner and outer layers of his jacket. Any of you ever lose change in the inner linings of an old jacket and hear the clinging of coins even though your pockets are empty only to find a coin like bump in the sleeve? :P
I don't exactly remember how I got stuck. I do know that I gave the needle to Mushka, but then somehow I couldn't get the cloak...Can't remember.
Maybe you accidently bought the pie with the gold coin or something?
Nope, I did that the right way. It also had something to do with not being able to trade the marionette for the sled, I think. Maybe?
Hmm...I've never heard of those problems. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to trade the marionette for the sled. Unless you've already traded something else for it...do you remember any messages or anything?
No, I don't; it was a while ago.
Maybe you never picked up the coin? It's definitely possible to do that.
Space Quest is probably not the best game to use as an excuse for having any amounts of death traps and dead ends. The purpose of those games were to ridicule you and make you frustrated. That was the whole fun of the game! :suffer:
That said, the only death that I have to complain about is [spoiler]the widow spider. I looked at the door, didn't even see the spider web, and attempted to walk right in.[/spoiler] D'oh!
Otherwise, I found [spoiler]the key in the hole trap rather amusing![/spoiler] It was obviously a trap, and my mind figured that doing the first step to that solution was all that was needed to be done. Ha ha!
The spider death was something I really didn't see coming but that was because I wasn't expecting a deadly black widow to be waiting to bite anyone who came near it to be in the middle of the damn town! You'd think that people would object to a murderous sentient creature adjacent to the streets where children could be playing. I mean it IS on the way to the candy cart.
The door trap in the wall did irritate me a little but that's because I didn't understand why I couldn't just grab the magnet. If they'd made a scene where the magnet attracts the coins (which shouldn't work if they were pure gold, which I think the game states such many times) something when you try talking to it instead of when you try to grab the thing it wouldn't have been as much of a moment of not understanding the interface.
I honestly didn't know why I couldn't just grab the damn thing. If it tried running away like the Hole in the Wall creature I would've been able to work it out much faster. Though why would the Isle of Wonder folks put the only key to unlocking the door to Chessboard Land in a death trap when most of them don't have arms and they can't reach it from the other side?
Even with the somewhat cheap and slightly illogical deaths I enjoyed this episode. Though the solution to far too many puzzles was the bag of infinite money. I should probably mention that the map salesman probably shouldn't have been impressed or even willing to sell an accurate map of the islands for one gold coin. Cartography is very difficult when you have to physically travel there to get an idea of what the shape of the islands might be.
Anyhow, a couple of strange moments here and there but I do think you guys have vastly improved very quickly. I look forward to the third episode whenever it is ready.
Mag-Gnat does actually attract your coins if you walk past it. As for a magnet attracting gold - well, this is the Isle of Wonder, after all. How many things there DO make sense? :P
Haha, that's true; I never thought about that. Perhaps it was a gold-iron alloy...
I don´t see the problem with instant deaths... if you arent ready for them and save really often, I dare to say you arent a real King Quest player! Besides, part of enjoying this series has always been to fall in some of the traps.
PD: You died clicking at the Black widow? That was a KQ6 classic
Quote from: KatieHal on September 26, 2010, 11:16:05 AM
KQ5 just had SO many WTF solutions. Honey and emeralds to lure out elves to escape the forest? Elves we'd never seen or heard of, much less knew what they liked to collect? Wha?? Cheese will turn on the wand machine? Yetis destroyed by pie?
I'll grant you that I lost all my emeralds to the elves many times before trapping one with the honey, but I never once was killed by the Yeti, and I knew to turn on the wand machine with the cheese due to The Brain (Of Pinky and the Brain) using powdered cheese to power one of his experiments. Science!
Quote from: Jethro McCrazy on September 30, 2010, 01:34:07 AM
. . . and I knew to turn on the wand machine with the cheese due to The Brain (Of Pinky and the Brain) using powdered cheese to power one of his experiments. Science!
That's more of a coincidence than an argument for good puzzle design, though.
Quote from: wilco64256 on September 22, 2010, 08:59:29 AMMost of the testers actually did not die here, and I didn't even know you could die here for some time.
I know I did. It actually took me a while to figure that puzzle out, since back when I first played it there wasn't much of a clue to what you're supposed to do, or a even a retry option for that matter ;)
And yeah, unexpected death is a design flaw. Even Ron Gilbert says so (http://grumpygamer.com/2152210) (under "Live and Learn"). But since there is a 'retry' option, it's not such a major issue. As for the 'broken realism', well, you can always assume that Graham noticed the trap mechanism even if the narrator didn't comment about it.
And on a personal note, I never did like that death scene... what a horrible way to go :o
Storm's back! !!!
Yeah - I died there, too. Of course, back then, there was no description for Mag-Gnat - we thought he was some kind of crab-creature. :P
Quote from: snabbott on October 01, 2010, 09:41:15 AM
Storm's back! !!!
Yeah - I died there, too. Of course, back then, there was no description for Mag-Gnat - we thought he was some kind of crab-creature. :P
Ahhh, the old days... people don't know how good they got it now, I tell you ;)
And whadaya mean, back? I'm always around, just really really busy :-\
I'm still worshipping ya, don't worry Storm!
*worships Storm*
Quote from: Storm on October 01, 2010, 06:59:35 PM
Quote from: snabbott on October 01, 2010, 09:41:15 AM
Storm's back! !!!
Yeah - I died there, too. Of course, back then, there was no description for Mag-Gnat - we thought he was some kind of crab-creature. :P
Ahhh, the old days... people don't know how good they got it now, I tell you ;)
And whadaya mean, back? I'm always around, just really really busy :-\
Back as in posting on the forums. :yes:
The only one that bugged me was the first one mentioned, since Graham basically doesn't do as he is told by not using the actual door.
I also agree that they are a design flaw, and that's the reason why I fought so much for that retry button --I had a lot of resistance from some of the directors!
However, WITH the retry button, they become just a funny way down memory lane. --if you are frustrated by them with the option of a retry button, that's just being extremely nitpicky.
Sudden deaths were part of the King's Quest from the past. We wanted to keep them, and we looked at a modern way for you to enjoy them rather than go " oh, crap, when did I last save??" Which was the case with many, many, many Sierra games.
But in doing so, we kept the spirit of it without punishing the player. I think it's a fair compromise to keep the "design flaws" that also made Sierra games, when they are instantly repaired. That's the difference.
I would never add a dead end because that can't be instantly repaired. And that's not just a design flaw, it's an exercise in frustration and it's the reason why I could never enjoy KQ5 and had to play it with a walkthrough --one of the few Sierra games I had to do that with.
That said, I can agree that having added a few mechanic things or just a message from the narrator, would have made it better, but really, again, with a retry button, why are we discussing this one so hard? I find it funny, especially when the Narrator scolds you after that --and no, I don't mind a sarcastic narrator there, you should have known that sticking your hand in a strange hole wouldn't have ended well -it's King's Quest for crying out loud :)
I personally enjoyed the death trap in question.
Quote from: Cez on October 08, 2010, 05:10:27 AMI find it funny, especially when the Narrator scolds you after that --and no, I don't mind a sarcastic narrator there, you should have known that sticking your hand in a strange hole wouldn't have ended well -it's King's Quest for crying out loud :)
I DID figure it was a trap, which is why I clicked the eye on it first for a description and a close-up. But I'm not going to start solving a puzzle that may or may not exist before there's any indication a simple grab is not the expected solution. Anyway, before the discussion loops back over itself...
QuoteThat said, I can agree that having added a few mechanic things or just a message from the narrator, would have made it better,
Cool, thanks, this is all I was originally pointing out when I started the thread. There are a lot of options to make one tiny adjustment that would make it much better. I understand that you don't want the trap to suddenly become so obvious that no one falls for it, which is why I've said you can choose from a number of minimal warnings. The key is that the trap should punish the eager and reward the cautious.
For the record, I did enjoy that puzzle otherwise.
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 09, 2010, 10:23:31 PM
Cool, thanks, this is all I was originally pointing out when I started the thread. There are a lot of options to make one tiny adjustment that would make it much better. I understand that you don't want the trap to suddenly become so obvious that no one falls for it, which is why I've said you can choose from a number of minimal warnings. The key is that the trap should punish the eager and reward the cautious.
Sad that it took five pages before one of the designers actually admitted fault. ::) But not unexpected.