I know this was on the Isle of Wonder where crazy things happen, but gold is not magnetic. I'm also not sure the idea of a gold-plated nickel currency was feasible at a time when TSL was supposed to have taken place (roughly 400 years ago according to another thread). Did this bother anyone else? :P
Oh, and one of the merchants asks if it's gold and Graham confirms that it is at one point.
Perhaps it's a gold alloy? :P
Or maybe the Mag-Gnat has abilities beyond those of regular magnets that enable him to attract any sort of metal-ish substance.
Or maybe you just have to turn a blind eye in the name of game design...haha.
Gold isn't magnetic, it's Magnatic! ::)
(http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/oh_you.jpg)
:rofl:
Doon, you win!
(and also Jafar for that perfect pun!)
A magnet that only attracts iron (ok - ferromagnetic substances) would just be too boring for the Isle of Wonder! :P
Yeah, walking magnets also don't exist, so we can make them attract whatever we want! :D
I would actually like to know what you like about TSL instead of what you don't like or find wrong about it for once :)
I wouldn't say that this bothered me, but I definitely noticed and was taken out of my immersion in the game enough to stop and think to myself, "huh. I wonder if they realize that gold isn't..." Then I just shook it off and kept playing. ;)
Quote from: Cez on October 07, 2010, 10:51:25 PM
I would actually like to know what you like about TSL instead of what you don't like or find wrong about it for once.
I like the option to turn off the narrator voice. :)
Quote from: Cez on October 07, 2010, 10:51:25 PM
Yeah, walking magnets also don't exist, so we can make them attract whatever we want! :D
I would actually like to know what you like about TSL instead of what you don't like or find wrong about it for once :)
I'm sorry if I've come across as being too negative. Personally, I think the artwork and the music are both beautiful and the game makes me very nostalgic and I loved playing it with Jamie. :)
Good! I was getting worried! You are one of the stars of our forums, among the top 10 posters, loved by all, have her own court. The queen approves, and I'm happy :)
The whole "it's the Isle of Wonder so of course it doesn't make sense" blanket answer is a pretty lame excuse. It's not specific to the puzzle and gives the designers too much creative license. I would prefer almost any explanation over that. Gold-plated nickel, expanding the properties of magnets for the sake of the puzzle, whatever.
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 10, 2010, 03:14:52 PM
The whole "it's the Isle of Wonder so of course it doesn't make sense" blanket answer is a pretty lame excuse. It's not specific to the puzzle and gives the designers too much creative license. I would prefer almost any explanation over that. Gold-plated nickel, expanding the properties of magnets for the sake of the puzzle, whatever.
Shady, you should know by now that such excuses are the team's way of saying, "ooh, yeah, you're right--we didn't think that through initially, but it's in the game now and that's that." ;)
Quote from: kindofdoon on October 07, 2010, 07:37:52 PM
(http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/oh_you.jpg)
Doon, you continue to crack me up. :rofl:
One point for you.
Quote from: Lambonius on October 10, 2010, 03:37:29 PM
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 10, 2010, 03:14:52 PM
The whole "it's the Isle of Wonder so of course it doesn't make sense" blanket answer is a pretty lame excuse. It's not specific to the puzzle and gives the designers too much creative license. I would prefer almost any explanation over that. Gold-plated nickel, expanding the properties of magnets for the sake of the puzzle, whatever.
Shady, you should know by now that such excuses are the team's way of saying, "ooh, yeah, you're right--we didn't think that through initially, but it's in the game now and that's that." ;)
I don't know - I know gold isn't magnetic, but I never had a problem with Mag-Gnat being able to attract gold. I don't expect magical creatures to obey the laws of physics.
Quote from: snabbott on October 11, 2010, 08:19:31 AM
Quote from: Lambonius on October 10, 2010, 03:37:29 PM
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 10, 2010, 03:14:52 PM
The whole "it's the Isle of Wonder so of course it doesn't make sense" blanket answer is a pretty lame excuse. It's not specific to the puzzle and gives the designers too much creative license. I would prefer almost any explanation over that. Gold-plated nickel, expanding the properties of magnets for the sake of the puzzle, whatever.
Shady, you should know by now that such excuses are the team's way of saying, "ooh, yeah, you're right--we didn't think that through initially, but it's in the game now and that's that." ;)
I don't know - I know gold isn't magnetic, but I never had a problem with Mag-Gnat being able to attract gold. I don't expect magical creatures to obey the laws of physics.
In fact, I think it's silly to expect them to. I mean.... simply by being a magical creature aren't they disobeying the laws of physics?
Then maybe they shouldn't have modeled it after the magnet. Instead, it should have been Mr. Telepathic Dwarf, who attracts certain objects and not others, and it's pretty arbitrary which objects are and aren't attracted. After all, the grinning key doesn't exactly look like metal either.
That would have made just as much sense. It's the Isle of Wonder after all!
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 11, 2010, 12:34:16 PM
Then maybe they shouldn't have modeled it after the magnet.
We didn't. At least, I've never seen a magnet with eyes or arms that could walk around by itself.
Quote from: wilco64256 on October 11, 2010, 12:53:01 PM
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 11, 2010, 12:34:16 PM
Then maybe they shouldn't have modeled it after the magnet.
We didn't. At least, I've never seen a magnet with eyes or arms that could walk around by itself.
Seriously? Do you even know what a model is?
Quote from: wilco64256 on October 11, 2010, 12:53:01 PMAt least, I've never seen a magnet with eyes or arms that could walk around by itself.
Perhaps not, but that's not exactly his point.
The Mag-Gnats feet are gold.... unlike most magnets. I hadn't noticed that but maybe that has something to do with it?
Quote from: Enchantermon on October 11, 2010, 01:10:22 PM
Quote from: wilco64256 on October 11, 2010, 12:53:01 PMAt least, I've never seen a magnet with eyes or arms that could walk around by itself.
Perhaps not, but that's not exactly his point.
Right, I do understand that, I just find it amusing that there's even a debate at all about why it isn't logical for a walking magnet to be able to attract gold. And this is being complained about on an island ruled by walking and talking chess pieces, which is also guarded by gnomes who each apparently possess only one sense.
Don't forget that there's animals that embody grammatical concepts and can only speak in those concepts and any number of other completely out-of-your-mind bizarre things going on.
The difference is that those characters personify the objects and concepts they resemble and represent them well. Ignoring and violating this principle defies the very thing that gave the Isle of Wonder its unique character. It is NOT simply "the land where there are no rules and anything goes".
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 11, 2010, 02:33:43 PM
The difference is that those characters personify the objects and concepts they resemble and represent them well.
So you're fine with iceberg lettuce that is actually made of ice, tomatos that talk, ferns that cry, chess pieces that bicker, and a sentient "hole" that can be carried around, but you take beef with a magnetic creature that is attracted to metals that are normally not magnetic? Having a magnet that attracts gold is no more illogical than any of the other things taking place on the Isle of Wonder, and is actually far MORE logical than many things that you find throughout earlier King's Quest games.
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 11, 2010, 02:33:43 PM
The difference is that those characters personify the objects and concepts they resemble and represent them well. Ignoring and violating this principle defies the very thing that gave the Isle of Wonder its unique character. It is NOT simply "the land where there are no rules and anything goes".
Agreed. Without some in-game explanation that clarifies why this particular magnet has properties that other magnets don't, it just comes off as sloppy logic.
And I'm sorry, but nitpicking stuff is just what fans do. We nitpick the s*** out of the old games, why should you guys be any different? :)
(Posted on: October 11, 2010, 05:31:08 PM)
Quote from: wilco64256 on October 11, 2010, 03:28:23 PM
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 11, 2010, 02:33:43 PM
The difference is that those characters personify the objects and concepts they resemble and represent them well.
So you're fine with iceberg lettuce that is actually made of ice, tomatos that talk, ferns that cry, chess pieces that bicker, and a sentient "hole" that can be carried around, but you take beef with a magnetic creature that is attracted to metals that are normally not magnetic? Having a magnet that attracts gold is no more illogical than any of the other things taking place on the Isle of Wonder, and is actually far MORE logical than many things that you find throughout earlier King's Quest games.
I don't think the comparison is valid. You're talking about puns and personifications of standard concepts vs. a personified object that
defies the concept it is supposed to be personifying. None of the other characters do that. None of them.
Magnets attract metal, there's nothing odd about that. It's not like we have him attracting feathers or water or something. He just attracts a slightly different type of metal than a normal magnet. If we wanted a magnet that only attracted normally magnetic metals then we wouldn't have used one that's alive.
I'm sure you'll then say, "But magnets don't attract gold." Well, iceberg lettuce doesn't melt. And baby's tears don't cry. And there's nothing about snapdragons that makes them dancing in KQ6 a pun in any way.
Nitpick all you like, but there's a difference between nitpicking and just being ridiculous - there's nothing suddenly "illogical" about a magnet attracting gold in a game series that uses cheese to recharge a magic wand.
Quote from: wilco64256 on October 11, 2010, 03:28:23 PMSo you're fine with iceberg lettuce that is actually made of ice, tomatos that talk, ferns that cry, chess pieces that bicker, and a sentient "hole" that can be carried around, but you take beef with a magnetic creature that is attracted to metals that are normally not magnetic?
Yes. There is a running theme in the original objects in KQ6 that you're obviously missing.
QuoteHaving a magnet that attracts gold is no more illogical than any of the other things taking place on the Isle of Wonder, and is actually far MORE logical than many things that you find throughout earlier King's Quest games.
On what grounds? I've already laid out my case. The objects in KQ6 take on the same properties of the items they represent. The iceberg lettuce takes on the properties of both ice and lettuce. The baby's tears take on the properties of the plant as well as babies. The rotten tomato, bump-on-a-log, stick-in-the-mud, clinging vines, bookworm, etc. all take on the properties of the literal and the figurative uses of those terms. The living chess pieces are competitive. And so on. The Mag-Gnat does NOT carry the properties of a magnet. This goes against everything the Isle of Wonder is.
You're putting too much stock into the idea that the Isle of Wonder is simply the Land of Arbitrary and anything ridiculous flies. You couldn't be more wrong. The rules on the Isle of Wonder are different, but there are still rules in place. That's what makes the place interesting.
Since this is something that won't be fixed, it's already out, and people haven't been stuck because it's illogical to use gold on a magnet --which shows you people like to think outside the box, and that's what adventure games are about--, this discussion is rather pointless, don't you all think? :)
Shady, you are very stubborn when you come about trying to make a remark about a game's flaw (Like with Deloria, I'd love to hear a good remark for once), so yes, you are right, whatever makes your heart happy, you win.
(For the record, I don't agree with you)
Now we can move on? :)
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 11, 2010, 03:53:48 PM
The Mag-Gnat does NOT carry the properties of a magnet. This goes against everything the Isle of Wonder is.
You're putting too much stock into the idea that the Isle of Wonder is simply the Land of Arbitrary and anything ridiculous flies. You couldn't be more wrong. The rules on the Isle of Wonder are different, but there are still rules in place. That's what makes the place interesting.
Yes it does. The Mag-Gnat attracts things made of metal. That is the basic idea behind a magnet; the Mag-Gnat is that, with a twist. Just like everything else there is like its real-world basis item, but with a twist. You're making it sound like what we have it used for makes NO SENSE whatsoever. It's not like we have the Mag-Gnat getting milked like a cow or conducting a symphony or singing an aria--it's attracting something to it that is made of metal. Something
different--as gold is not magnetic--but still adhering to the basic principle of what a magnet does.
But yes, obviously you aren't going to agree with us, and we aren't going to agree with you. So continuing the debate seems rather pointless.
Quote from: wilco64256 on October 11, 2010, 03:51:47 PM
Magnets attract metal, there's nothing odd about that. It's not like we have him attracting feathers or water or something. He just attracts a slightly different type of metal than a normal magnet. If we wanted a magnet that only attracted normally magnetic metals then we wouldn't have used one that's alive.
An object coming to life on the Isle of Wonder has never before changed the object's properties.
QuoteI'm sure you'll then say, "But magnets don't attract gold." Well, iceberg lettuce doesn't melt. And baby's tears don't cry. And there's nothing about snapdragons that makes them dancing in KQ6 a pun in any way.
But ice DOES melt. Babies DO cry. Neither magnets nor gnats attract gold.
QuoteNitpick all you like, but there's a difference between nitpicking and just being ridiculous - there's nothing suddenly "illogical" about a magnet attracting gold in a game series that uses cheese to recharge a magic wand.
You're going to switch games to support your argument? The rules on the Isle of Wonder don't even apply to the rest of KQ6!
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 11, 2010, 04:00:48 PM
Quote from: wilco64256 on October 11, 2010, 03:51:47 PM
Magnets attract metal, there's nothing odd about that. It's not like we have him attracting feathers or water or something. He just attracts a slightly different type of metal than a normal magnet. If we wanted a magnet that only attracted normally magnetic metals then we wouldn't have used one that's alive.
An object coming to life on the Isle of Wonder has never before changed the object's properties.
Yeah? Since when has the Iceberg Lettuce been freezing cold?
Mmhmm....so, by your logic Shady.... Hole-in-the-Wall should have something to do with a dingy bar. Or should dispense money ("hole in the wall"British slang for ATM -- though I think I'd rather say ATM, wouldn't you?).
But, no, Hole-in-the-Wall is simply a hole in a wall.... that you can pick up and move. Gosh, that seems silly and defies all reasoning but it doesn't have anything at all to do with the concept of a hole in the wall. In fact, all it really is is a plot device necessary for a puzzle later in the game that didn't fit in anywhere so they put it on the Isle of Wonder.
Did you have issues with Hole-in-the-Wall when KQ6 came out? Because by the logic you just argued, you should have.
Aside from that, in King's Quest lore -- you know, the rules of the world we're discussing -- it's meant to be a crazy illogical place that defies the laws of physics. It says it in the KQ6 manual: http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Guidebook_to_the_Land_of_the_Green_Isles#PART_III_The_Isle_of_Wonder
It describes just a few things that conflict with your theory...like talking sand grains.
Mostly I'd like to direct you to this quote: "But be warned those travellers who like to know, exactly what to expect from life would be well advised to go elsewhere."
If it all followed the laws of physics, you'd know what to expect. So, clearly, the Mag-Gnat is *not* in defiance of what the Isle of Wonder is.
Besides, as you JUST said... if the rules of the rest of KQ games don't apply to the Isle of Wonder why would the rules of anywhere else apply to the Isle of Wonder? That is what I like to call "the kind of logic that isn't" -- and for someone who's debating the logic of the Mag-Gnat, shouldn't you be trying to be logical?
Basically, what I'm trying to say is just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.
Lambonius is right also, in that the team has offered similar reasons to past issues which basically means "Oh we didn't think of this, but it's too late to go back and fix it". The "it's the Isle of Wonder" excuse is a lot less flimsy than some excuses they could have given.
Quote from: crayauchtin on October 11, 2010, 04:14:22 PM
Mmhmm....so, by your logic Shady.... Hole-in-the-Wall should have something to do with a dingy bar. Or should dispense money ("hole in the wall"British slang for ATM -- though I think I'd rather say ATM, wouldn't you?).
But, no, Hole-in-the-Wall is simply a hole in a wall.... that you can pick up and move. Gosh, that seems silly and defies all reasoning but it doesn't have anything at all to do with the concept of a hole in the wall. In fact, all it really is is a plot device necessary for a puzzle later in the game that didn't fit in anywhere so they put it on the Isle of Wonder.
Did you have issues with Hole-in-the-Wall when KQ6 came out? Because by the logic you just argued, you should have.
You definitely misunderstand shady's logic if that's what you think he's arguing. He's saying that there was a definite theme to the Isle of Wonder objects. Either they were puns where figurative names were given literal form (i.e. the Hole-in-the-Wall, iceberg lettuce, babies' tears, rotten tomato, etc.) OR they were inanimate objects personified (i.e. the competitive Chess pieces.) The Mag-gnat doesn't really fit the mold, is what he's saying. Which is true. Granted, it didn't really ruin anything for me, I'm just making a point here. :)
Also, I think you guys are being too hard on shady here. He hasn't been overly negative--he's just being argumentative because people are ganging up on him. You guys should step back and just indulge the thread for what it is, fan nit-picking and friendly (until the team started jumping down people's throats, of course ::)) dissection of the puzzles and game logic, nothing more. The hubris on display by everyone else here is really unbecoming and unprofessional.
Quote from: Lambonius on October 11, 2010, 04:37:09 PM
You definitely misunderstand shady's logic if that's what you think he's arguing. He's saying that there was a definite theme to the Isle of Wonder objects. Either they were puns where figurative names were given literal form (i.e. the Hole-in-the-Wall, iceberg lettuce, babies' tears, rotten tomato, etc.) OR they were inanimate objects personified (i.e. the competitive Chess pieces.) The Mag-gnat doesn't really fit the mold, is what he's saying. Which is true. Granted, it didn't really ruin anything for me, I'm just making a point here. :)
I still don't see how the Hole-in-the-Wall fits the mold. It is not personified. It's not even sentient til it appears in TSL -- it's just a cartoony looking Hole-in-the-Wall that skitters around and squeaks in KQ6. You don't personify something into an animal, then it wouldn't be personification. It would be.... animalification!
QuoteAlso, I think you guys are being too hard on shady here. He hasn't been overly negative--he's just being argumentative because people are ganging up on him. You guys should step back and just indulge the thread for what it is, fan nit-picking and friendly (until the team started jumping down people's throats, of course ::)) dissection of the puzzles and game logic, nothing more. The hubris on display by everyone else here is really unbecoming and unprofessional.
On the one hand, I can see how we're being harsh.... but the team did accept what he said and offered an explanation since they
can't go back and fix it now (I mean, if you couldn't tell that's what the explanation was for there's no way you're smart enough to have beaten all the King's Quest games! :P) -- which was then not enough. The more "Yeah but no cuz" someone says, obviously the more frustrated everyone else is going to get. I'm not trying to mean, I'm just saying... even just reading this thread got me frustrated. I can only imagine how the team feels about the topic by now.
Let's not get argumentative guys. ;) If you would like to debate that is okay but this looks like it might be going down hill. Just a heads up.
Quote from: crayauchtin on October 11, 2010, 06:01:11 PM
I still don't see how the Hole-in-the-Wall fits the mold. It is not personified.
It's a common figurative phrase, "Hole in the Wall," given literal form (turned into a character.) This exactly fits the mold as I described it. ;)
I actually agree with Shady. When I was playing, I was like, "Huh? That's not right..." But then I took the fact that the Magnat automatically tries to steal the gold when you touch it as kind of an apology-- "Listen, we know magnets don't attract gold, so we're gonna show you up front that this one does so you can get the puzzle solved."
No, its not in line with the punny logic of the Isle of Wonder. But as someone mentioned earlier, it is in line with using cheese to power up a wand-- sometimes things just work that way because that's how the writer wanted it to work, not because its the most rock-solid plot device. And as long as there's enough hints to make one figure out how to proceed, well, oh well.
Quote from: Lambonius on October 11, 2010, 06:17:45 PM
Quote from: crayauchtin on October 11, 2010, 06:01:11 PM
I still don't see how the Hole-in-the-Wall fits the mold. It is not personified.
It's a common figurative phrase, "Hole in the Wall," given literal form (turned into a character.) This exactly fits the mold as I described it. ;)
It would, except the figurative phrase "Hole in the Wall" has nothing to do with either holes or walls.
Quote from: wilco64256 on October 11, 2010, 06:28:54 PM
Quote from: Lambonius on October 11, 2010, 06:17:45 PM
Quote from: crayauchtin on October 11, 2010, 06:01:11 PM
I still don't see how the Hole-in-the-Wall fits the mold. It is not personified.
It's a common figurative phrase, "Hole in the Wall," given literal form (turned into a character.) This exactly fits the mold as I described it. ;)
It would, except the figurative phrase "Hole in the Wall" has nothing to do with either holes or walls.
I don't think I've ever heard the phrase you guys are talking about. It's a dive bar, or it's an ATM. That's all I got.
According to Urban Dictionary there's a third meaning but I PROMISE that's not what they were referencing in KQ6. :o :o :sweating:
(In the case of the former it does have to do with walls -- in a big city a dive bar is stereotypically a tiny little place shoved between two buildings like.... a hole in the wall.
Quote from: wilco64256 on October 11, 2010, 06:28:54 PM
Quote from: Lambonius on October 11, 2010, 06:17:45 PM
Quote from: crayauchtin on October 11, 2010, 06:01:11 PM
I still don't see how the Hole-in-the-Wall fits the mold. It is not personified.
It's a common figurative phrase, "Hole in the Wall," given literal form (turned into a character.) This exactly fits the mold as I described it. ;)
It would, except the figurative phrase "Hole in the Wall" has nothing to do with either holes or walls.
Hence the word "figurative" used as a descriptor.
You're applying a double-standard. Iceberg lettuce is both an iceberg and lettuce. Baby's tears are actual baby plants that cry. The wallflowers fit their figurative use of "wallflowers" at a dance or something. They're flowers that stand by the wall and are shy. The hole in the wall is not figurative at all, it's a hole that you use to look through the wall. The "figurative" meaning of hole in the wall has nothing to do with looking through an actual wall at all.
Quote from: wilco64256 on October 11, 2010, 07:09:13 PM
You're applying a double-standard. Iceberg lettuce is both an iceberg and lettuce. Baby's tears are actual baby plants that cry. The wallflowers fit their figurative use of "wallflowers" at a dance or something. They're flowers that stand by the wall and are shy. The hole in the wall is not figurative at all, it's a hole that you use to look through the wall. The "figurative" meaning of hole in the wall has nothing to do with looking through an actual wall at all.
No. If you reread my posts, you'll see that I said that the figurative PHRASE "Hole in the Wall" is turned into a LITERAL character--a HOLE on the WALL that you look through. The ACTUAL MEANING of the phrase is not applied--just as the ACTUAL MEANING of the term "babies' tears" or "iceberg lettuce" is also not applied. The WORDS in the phrase are interpreted LITERALLY into a character. It's not a double standard--you just aren't grasping the concept of what I was saying. :)
So then what's your complaint with our use of the term "Mag-Gnat?" As far as I'm aware, it has no literal or figurative definition?
Quote from: wilco64256 on October 11, 2010, 07:22:08 PM
So then what's your complaint with our use of the term "Mag-Gnat?" As far as I'm aware, it has no literal or figurative definition?
I don't really have a complaint. :) I'm just making the point that it doesn't fit the scheme of the other characters in the garden, since Mag-Gnat is not a real term or figure of speech. ;) If the character had had wings and fluttered along like an insect, it would be closer to the other figures, since at least then it would incorporate characteristics of both magnets and gnats, but it still wouldn't exactly fit the schema, for the sole reason that Mag-Gnat is a made-up term, unlike the others, which do exist in real language.
The character itself was cute--I had no problem with it. The gold-not-being-magnetic thing raised an eyebrow for a second or two, but not enough to really take me out of the game--I was just defending shadyparadox, since I do agree with the principle of his argument, even if it didn't bother me as much.
Hehe, you've never read Piers Anthony's Xanth series, have you?
Quote from: KatieHal on October 11, 2010, 07:31:58 PM
Hehe, you've never read Piers Anthony's Xanth series, have you?
Ah...nope. :) Am I missing out on something?
Yeah, I noticed the fact that gold isn't magnetic but it didn't bother me even for a minute. And like it was mentioned earlier in the thread, we actually saw the mag-gnat try to steal the gold. If we hadn't seen that, then maybe I would have had trouble using something that's nonmagnetic on something that looks like a magnet and it would have been an issue. But we did, so I didn't, so it wasn't.
Honestly, it reminded me of when I watched the X-Men movies. They were entertaining movies and all but in the back of my head I knew a guy named Magneto was manipulating non-magnetic metals (like the copper Statue of Liberty). And I know there's some in-universe explanation for that (and I really, desperately, don't care what it is) but whatever the explanation is, the character is still named Magneto and he's manipulating non-magnetic metals. The movies were still entertaining and I didn't care.
So yeah, mag-gnat didn't bother me. And I felt that the attempt at a pun (even if the scientific rules of magnetic fields aren't adhered to 100%) did in fact fit the Isle of Wonder. In fact, if I was to nitpick the character at all, it wouldn't be the magnetic aspect, it would be the fact that the gnat part didn't come out. He should have had some wings! For the record though, that didn't bother me either.
To be honest, this is actually one of those things that we did discuss prior to release - we know that gold isn't normally magnetic but nothing on the Isle of Wonder behaves "normally." If he were only attracted to normally magnetic metals then he would just be a walking magnet, nothing much to "Wonder" at there. We really did set this one up this way deliberately.
Quote from: wilco64256 on October 11, 2010, 07:54:09 PM
To be honest, this is actually one of those things that we did discuss prior to release - we know that gold isn't normally magnetic but nothing on the Isle of Wonder behaves "normally." If he were only attracted to normally magnetic metals then he would just be a walking magnet, nothing much to "Wonder" at there. We really did set this one up this way deliberately.
It's not a big deal. I think if the game had made light of this through some little line or something, the whole thing would have gone over as the joke it was intended to be rather than causing people to wonder if it was a mistake. The ambiguity as to whether or not it was intentional was the only thing that caused me to stop and think about it, really. But yeah, I personally got a kick out of the scene overall. :)
And it's just funny to me that anybody would stop and wonder about the logistics of anything on the Isle of Wonder. We really didn't expect complaints about this one, but we're learning I suppose.
For the record, I'm not really trying to complain about it--I'm just saying I understand why it seemed strange to some people. ;)
In the death traps thread, I did say that I enjoyed the puzzle other than that trap. So really, the magnetizing gold thing itself isn't what was bothering me. What is bothering me is this prevailing idea that the Isle of Wonder is simply the Land of Nonsense, when there is something much more profound going on. It's a shame that so many people seem to not only fail to recognize it, but vehemently deny it when it's brought to their attention.
And since Cez wants me to say something positive about TSL... I did appreciate the clue provided when clicking the hand on the Mag-Gnat, which was the only reason I thought to use the bag since gold can't actually be magnetized. The clue wasn't just helpful, but it was funny too. Clicked the hand on the Mag-Gnat several times just to get a giggle.
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 11, 2010, 08:19:57 PM
What is bothering me is this prevailing idea that the Isle of Wonder is simply the Land of Nonsense, when there is something much more profound going on. It's a shame that so many people seem to not only fail to recognize it, but vehemently deny it when it's brought to their attention.
I agree. The way the Isle of Wonder is designed is really just ingenious, and a testament to Jane and Roberta's amazing creative minds. The fact that it so specifically adheres to figure-of-speech and grammar-based jokes and characters is totally awesome--something that I came to appreciate more and more the older I got (and the more of an English nerd I became.) You're right, too--it's not just a land of nonsense. There is a very specific (and subtle, apparently ;)) underlying order to all of the characters and objects found there. Simply put, the Isle of Wonder makes sense--a very specific kind of sense. It's kind of like a grammatical version of Alice and Wonderland--without Alice or all of the dark undertones of Wonderland.
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 11, 2010, 08:19:57 PMAnd since Cez wants me to say something positive about TSL... I did appreciate the clue provided when clicking the hand on the Mag-Gnat, which was the only reason I thought to use the bag since gold can't actually be magnetized. The clue wasn't just helpful, but it was funny too. Clicked the hand on the Mag-Gnat several times just to get a giggle.
I'll have to go back and do this--I'm sure I did it in my initial playthrough, but I can't remember the gag.
No, I agree that Isle of Wonder is carefully constructed but I don't think Mag-Gnat goes against that. Mag-Gnat is more along the lines of Hole-in-the-Wall -- which is not a pun or a personification. Perhaps the name of Mag-Gnat is a little off from what they were trying to do... but I think calling it "Magnet" would just have been too obvious. :P
The Xanth series is FULL of puns. Like, built on them. I'm pretty sure that a mag-gnat even shows up in there at some point.
In any case, then it's another case of opinion here--personally, I don't think the mag-gnat "breaks" the pun-ridden "rules" of the Isle of Wonder. And obviously, I'm far from the only one on the team (or among the fans, even) who thinks that. Please, don't bring up arguments to say I'm wrong--I'm not interested in hearing for a third, fifth, or even eightieth time.
Well actually, none of the characters on the Isle of Wonder are "puns" at all--I misspoke when I initially used that word--they are figures of speech (a different thing entirely) that are taken literally and transformed into characters based on that literal interpretation. ;) So that's really the crucial difference.
Like I said though--I thought the Mag-Gnat was a cute idea and enough in keeping with the general whimsical spirit of the place, even if it doesn't conform to its rules as defined by Roberta and Jane.
Quote from: Lambonius on October 11, 2010, 09:00:14 PM
Well actually, none of the characters on the Isle of Wonder are "puns" at all--I misspoke when I initially used that word--they are figures of speech (a different thing entirely) that are taken literally and transformed into characters based on that literal interpretation. ;) So that's really the crucial difference.
But she just told you she didn't want to hear any counterarguments! ;)
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 11, 2010, 09:11:13 PM
Quote from: Lambonius on October 11, 2010, 09:00:14 PM
Well actually, none of the characters on the Isle of Wonder are "puns" at all--I misspoke when I initially used that word--they are figures of speech (a different thing entirely) that are taken literally and transformed into characters based on that literal interpretation. ;) So that's really the crucial difference.
But she just told you she didn't want to hear any counterarguments! ;)
Oops! I started responding before Katie's comment got posted. ;) Sorry!
*Puts hand on Lamb's head* You are forgiven :yes:
I do have to say that the notion that "anything goes" on the Isle of Wonder really goes to show that many didn't understand the concept of the Isle of Wonder. Even with "wonder", there's still rules.
Bt
I don't think we're saying "anything goes" per se, we're just saying it's less specific than Shady and Lamb are indicating.
Quote from: crayauchtin on October 12, 2010, 12:11:42 AM
I don't think we're saying "anything goes" per se, we're just saying it's less specific than Shady and Lamb are indicating.
And yet it's more specific than you're indicating. ;)
Quote from: crayauchtin on October 12, 2010, 12:11:42 AM
I don't think we're saying "anything goes" per se, we're just saying it's less specific than Shady and Lamb are indicating.
I really don't see how it's any less specific than I've repeatedly indicated.
Every character on the Isle of Wonder is a figure of speech in which the words in the phrase are taken literally and turned into a character. The exceptions are the personified objects/creatures/concepts, namely the Chess pieces and Black Widow. Even the Sense Gnomes (which seem at first glance to be the one wild card) fit this design scheme, since they are personifications of the 5 human senses. Every other character is based on a figure of speech--it's pretty clear that Roberta and Jane designed the place with this specific scheme in mind. I don't know why we are arguing about this. It's really not a matter of opinion, but rather empirical facts that are clearly verifiable by anyone who wants to take the time to replay KQ6 and analyze it a bit. ;)
Again, I'm not saying Mag-Gnat doesn't fit the whimsical tone of the Island, I'm just saying that technically, he doesn't fit the design scheme as conceived of by Roberta and Jane. It's not an insult. Just pointing out a fact.
Right, and it's a "fact" that we don't agree on.
Hey, I've got the WEIRDEST feeling of deja vu....anyone else? :P
Circles, ever decreasing until thread lock?
Threads like these are why I have this avatar image. ;D
Quote from: Cez on October 11, 2010, 03:56:20 PM
Since this is something that won't be fixed, it's already out, and people haven't been stuck because it's illogical to use gold on a magnet --which shows you people like to think outside the box, and that's what adventure games are about--, this discussion is rather pointless, don't you all think? :)
To be fair, people haven't been stuck because we all saw the Magnat trying to get Graham's gold. :P Without that animation, many people probably would have been stuck, but as it's been implemented it's not an issue.
For the record, I'm fine with illogical puzzles. But if there are other such puzzles in future episodes, I believe more such short animations will have to be included in order not to attract a great deal of negative attention from frustrated gamers. :P
EDIT: And yes, I also thought it was a cute character. :) I didn't make this thread with the intention of attacking POS. :P
Quote from: Lambonius on October 12, 2010, 12:23:04 AM
Every character on the Isle of Wonder is a figure of speech in which the words in the phrase are taken literally and turned into a character. The exceptions are the personified objects/creatures/concepts, namely the Chess pieces and Black Widow. Even the Sense Gnomes (which seem at first glance to be the one wild card) fit this design scheme, since they are personifications of the 5 human senses. Every other character is based on a figure of speech--it's pretty clear that Roberta and Jane designed the place with this specific scheme in mind. I don't know why we are arguing about this. It's really not a matter of opinion, but rather empirical facts that are clearly verifiable by anyone who wants to take the time to replay KQ6 and analyze it a bit. ;)
I still want you to explain to me the figure of speech Hole-in-the-Wall is supposed to be. Because otherwise, they all represent both the literal interpretation *and* the figurative phrase. Hole-in-the-Wall doesn't. So, if you're going to stand by this argument (which, obviously you are) I really wish you'd explain that Hole-in-the-Logic. :P
Otherwise, it can't possibly be as specific as you've said because Jane and Roberta are breaking their own rules. Or, perhaps, you're making up rules for them. :P
Quote from: wilco64256 on October 11, 2010, 12:53:01 PM
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 11, 2010, 12:34:16 PM
Then maybe they shouldn't have modeled it after the magnet.
We didn't. At least, I've never seen a magnet with eyes or arms that could walk around by itself.
It is good to know that you haven't used LSD before.
Quote from: crayauchtin on October 12, 2010, 09:33:46 AM
Quote from: Lambonius on October 12, 2010, 12:23:04 AM
Every character on the Isle of Wonder is a figure of speech in which the words in the phrase are taken literally and turned into a character. The exceptions are the personified objects/creatures/concepts, namely the Chess pieces and Black Widow. Even the Sense Gnomes (which seem at first glance to be the one wild card) fit this design scheme, since they are personifications of the 5 human senses. Every other character is based on a figure of speech--it's pretty clear that Roberta and Jane designed the place with this specific scheme in mind. I don't know why we are arguing about this. It's really not a matter of opinion, but rather empirical facts that are clearly verifiable by anyone who wants to take the time to replay KQ6 and analyze it a bit. ;)
I still want you to explain to me the figure of speech Hole-in-the-Wall is supposed to be. Because otherwise, they all represent both the literal interpretation *and* the figurative phrase. Hole-in-the-Wall doesn't. So, if you're going to stand by this argument (which, obviously you are) I really wish you'd explain that Hole-in-the-Logic. :P
Really? You've never heard the expression "hole in the wall" before? It means an out-of-the-way location, or a simple, non-fancy, but otherwise pleasant place. It's most commonly used to refer to little dive restaurants, but it can more generally mean any out-of-the-way location. Sometimes it has the connotation that people specifically go to these locations to escape day to day life or be forgotten. It doesn't mean a literal "hole" at all, nor does it have anything to do with a literal "wall." On the Isle of Wonder, the
expression (not its actual meaning) is given literal form--i.e. the words are taken literally and turned into a cute little character shaped like a hole that sits on a wall. How can I be any more clear? :)
http://www.englishdaily626.com/slang.php?066
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hole+in+the+wall
Quote24. hole in the wall, a small or confining place, esp. one that is dingy, shabby, or out-of-the-way: Their first shop was a real hole in the wall.
Lamb -- I *have* heard that expression -- as I've said like six times in this thread (and I even explained where that expression comes from, and yes it does have to do with walls :P) -- and that's why I'm saying it does not fit your explanation of the "rules" at all.
Okay, for instance....
Iceberg Lettuce -- lettuce that is made of ice.
Dogwood Tree -- tree that has a dog's head and barks.
Cattails -- reeds that meow and wave around when you pull them
Milkweed -- weeds with bottles of milk on them
Stick-in-the-Mud -- grumpy personality, literally a stick stuck in the mud
Bump-on-a-Log -- lazy personality, literally a bump on a log
Bookworm -- worm that lives in his books
Sour Grapes -- grapes with bitterness
Wall Flowers -- shy flowers growing on a wall
Clinging Vines -- are needy, clingy in personality, and are vines clinging to a wall
Baby's Tears -- plants that are infants and cry
Rotten Tomato -- an overripe tomato with a nasty personality
Snapdragons -- flowers with blooms shaped like dragon's heads that snap at people
Oyster Bed -- a place for oysters to sleep.
All of those are two meanings at the same time. That would be the "rule" you're saying exists on the Isle of Wonder.
Whereas Hole-in-the-Wall is just a hole. In a wall. There's no double meaning, there's nothing that makes it fit in with the rest of the list there.
It doesn't fit. It's only ONE meaning, not both.
So, unless Hole-in-the-Wall is also going to dispense food and/or alcohol (or money, if he's British) it doesn't fit and your rules for the Isle of Wonder are not as specific as you keep saying they are.
What are you talking about? It's exactly the same as stick-in-the-mud or bump-on-a-log in your list.
Hole-in-the-wall -- an out-of-the-way place, literally a hole in a wall.
It fits
exactly into that list as you've organized it. ???
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hole+in+the+wall
Quote24. hole in the wall, a small or confining place, esp. one that is dingy, shabby, or out-of-the-way: Their first shop was a real hole in the wall.
So... does the figurative part come in when he hides behind the wallflowers? I'll admit it's kind of a stretch. ;P
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 12, 2010, 11:42:23 AM
So... does the figurative part come in when he hides behind the wallflowers? I'll admit it's kind of a stretch. ;P
OHH....I see what you were saying now, cray. :) You're saying that both the figurative AND literal parts are expressed in many of the characters. I gotcha. (That's not what I was arguing though, btw.)
But yeah, I would definitely say that the figurative part is expressed in his personality. I don't think it's a stretch at all. I mean, you could basically take this dictionary definition:
"24. hole in the wall, a small or confining place, esp. one that is dingy, shabby, or out-of-the-way"
and replace the word "place" with "character," and you'd have a description of the Hole-in-the-Wall as he appears in the game. Obviously you have to personify the idea of a small out-of-the-way place into a human-like character--so they added the idea of him being extremely shy (which makes sense, of course) to be able to express the idea of him hiding and escaping to out-of-the-way spots. He does it first with the wallflowers when you try to interact with him, and then again when he escapes Alexander after being used in the labyrinth.
Or, another way to look at it would be to take that definition and simply add the words "a character who prefers" to the beginning of it, and you'd have the representation of the Hole-in-the-Wall character from the game.
QuoteWell actually, none of the characters on the Isle of Wonder are "puns" at all--I misspoke when I initially used that word--they are figures of speech (a different thing entirely) that are taken literally and transformed into characters based on that literal interpretation. So that's really the crucial difference.
Well, the plants of the Pun Garden (KQC name for the garden) and Swamp are figures of speech/idioms (I.E. "Hole in the Wall", a term often used for a pub/bar/tavern; Wallflowers, shy individuals; Stick-in-the-mud, someone who lacks initiative, imagination, or enthusiasm; Bump-on-the-log, a lazy or useless individual), or actual plants given a literal interpretation (snap dragons, baby's tears, iceberg lettuce, sour grapes with sour dispositions that 'wine', clinging vines that strangle). Rotten Tomato isn't a type of plant, but a plant in stage of decomposition (the game however takes the meaning of "rotten" to mean bad disposition). Dogwood tree, that barks like a dog. Cat tails that meow. Milkweed with milk bottles
On the beach you have the "oyster beds", which are portrayed as oysters on literal beds. At Exclamation Point, you have the bookworm which is literally a worm that lives in books. The Black Widow is well a widow, and wants to make Alex her newest "catch". Spelling Bees are literally bees that spell. A rare book is a book that hasn't been out in the sun for too long. The Hanging Participle actually hangs, and appears to be 'part' possum and dragons, and speaks with unfinished sentences. The Oxymoron speaks in oxymorons, although I'm not sure if its a literal "moron". The Diphong just makes weird noises. There appearance as a mouse and hare, doesn't seem to have any direct connection to there names (but might be loose nod to the march hare and dormouse of Alice in Wonderland).
Back to the garden, there is also the Tomato Vines (Rotten Tomato's sisters), but I'm not sure if there is any direct figure of speech, idiom, literal interpretation, or pun being utilized in that name. They seem to be tomato vines like any tomato vines, except that they can talk...
For trivia sake the King's Quest companion also mentions; crab apples with claws and antenna, buttercups filled with butter, and baby's breaths that breath.
As for Chessboard Land, not any puns, idioms, or figures of speech there in KQ6, as far as I know. They have alot in common with Chess Pieces in Alice through the Looking Glass.
"Rotten tomato" is also an expression, much like "bad apple" or "bad egg"--basically yeah, a person with a rotten disposition. The term connotes a specific individual being singled out of a group--so in order to represent it literally, you have to first have a group of non-rotten individuals out of which to single the sole rotten one--hence the regular smiling tomatoes. They are part of the connotative meaning of the expression.
And "Pun Garden" is definitely a misnomer. Iceberg lettuce, for example, is not a pun. Puns are phonetic. It'd have to be something like Lett-Ice (in which case Mag-Gnat would fit right in--well, except for the fact that it has no gnat-like features. ;))
Actually not all puns are "phonetic". Phonetic puns just make up one type of pun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pun
But of you are right that "iceberg lettuce" is not a phonetic pun. It might have more in common with homegraphic pun. More of a sight pun than than sound.
A man goes to the Doctor with a piece of lettuce hanging out of his ear.
"That looks nasty," says the doctor.
"Nasty?!?" replies the man, "this is just the tip of the iceberg."
I'll give you the Gnat part of it--I think he used to have wings but he doesn't now, and he does have the 'bug eyes' sort of, but yeah, he doesn't look terribly gnat-like despite his name.
A gnat;
(http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/willow/gnat-info0.gif)
Although, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't these guys pretty tiny, about the size of a period?
Yes... please do not turn into debating the size of Mag-Gnat, because that would be even more ridiculous than this thread already is.
But isn't this thread supposed to be ridiculous? I mean, we're talking about the Isle of Wonder :P
It's not the size that matters, its uh how you use it?
Quote from: Baggins on October 12, 2010, 01:16:48 PM
Actually not all puns are "phonetic". Phonetic puns just make up one type of pun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pun
But of you are right that "iceberg lettuce" is not a phonetic pun. It might have more in common with homegraphic pun. More of a sight pun than than sound.
A man goes to the Doctor with a piece of lettuce hanging out of his ear.
"That looks nasty," says the doctor.
"Nasty?!?" replies the man, "this is just the tip of the iceberg."
Ah. You're right. I take it back. :) And for the record, I think we should start exclusively using the term paronomasia to refer to puns from now on. ;D Mag-Gnat would be a different type of paronomasia--the phonetic kind--rather than the more general double-meaning type figures that otherwise populate the garden in KQ6. The lack of gnat features, as mentioned, makes the paronomasia joke make a little less sense, definitely. I still like the little guy though. ;)
(Posted on: October 12, 2010, 04:28:18 PM)
Quote from: Baggins on October 12, 2010, 01:40:59 PM
It's not the size that matters, its uh how you use it?
Ah...how quickly a pedantic discussion about grammar turns into sexual innuendo. hehehe
Quote from: Deloria on October 12, 2010, 08:09:36 AM
Quote from: Cez on October 11, 2010, 03:56:20 PM
Since this is something that won't be fixed, it's already out, and people haven't been stuck because it's illogical to use gold on a magnet --which shows you people like to think outside the box, and that's what adventure games are about--, this discussion is rather pointless, don't you all think? :)
To be fair, people haven't been stuck because we all saw the Magnat trying to get Graham's gold. :P Without that animation, many people probably would have been stuck, but as it's been implemented it's not an issue.
For the record, I'm fine with illogical puzzles. But if there are other such puzzles in future episodes, I believe more such short animations will have to be included in order not to attract a great deal of negative attention from frustrated gamers. :P
EDIT: And yes, I also thought it was a cute character. :) I didn't make this thread with the intention of attacking POS. :P
Probably, but it's there. And the reason why it's there is because we knew it was "illogical", and rather than coming up with with a bag of metal coins inventory item, or bag of scraps or whatever, we ESTABLISHED that in the Isle of Wonder this guy, when you pass by him, he likes to take your gold. That is something we have established and within the illogical world of the Isle of Wonders, we've made it a fact.
We establish that fact VERY WELL, because if you haven't used hand on the guy, or haven't figured it out by the 4th time you get into that screen, the animation will play.
So we can say two things: 1) Magnets do not attract gold in REAL LIFE. This is a fantasy game people, get over it.
2) In our fantasy game, in our story cemented in Roberta's universe where cabbage's cry, lettuce is cold, and grain of sands may tell you to put them back, we have a magnet that has eyes and feet and walks around, LOVES gold, and he's particularly developed, over the years, the ability to grab onto it just like he can do with metal.
If you call that a stretch and illogical, then cool. That's your way of seeing it. But we are the ones telling this particular story. And in our story this personification of a Magnet attracts gold . And that's the simple way we can put it.
Whether this fact is logical or not, that is completely irreverent. We could have made it attract pearls or plastic, and as long as it's an established fact within the world, then it is fair and real to the world you are playing. If you want to bring preconceptions of your life into this game, you shouldn't be saying that it's illogical to have a magnet attract gold --you should be saying that a magnet walking around is illogical :)
Quote from: Cez on October 12, 2010, 02:41:13 PM
...That is a fact we have established and within the illogical world of the Isle of Wonders, we've made it a fact...
...2) In our fantasy game, in our story cemented in Roberta's universe where cabbage's cry, lettuce is cold...
...Whether this fact is logical or not, that is completely irreverent. We could have made it attract pearls or plastic, and as long as it's an established fact within the world, then everything is possible.
The difference though, is that in Roberta's universe, cabbages cry
for a reason, because they're babies' tears, and lettuce is cold
for a reason, because it's iceberg lettuce. In Roberta's world, the Isle of Wonder
is logical, in its own specific way. It was never meant to be the land of arbitrary nonsense. :)
But if your theory holds, then the gnomes shouldn't have developed the senses in the way they did. Because there's nothing about the name "Gnome" that implies that they should have magnified senses.
So tell me... in terms of what fits the Isle of Wonders, what's the difference exactly between having five "Gnomes" that developed abnormal extra sensory abilities, and a "Mag-Gnat" that developed the abnormal ability to attract gold?
Now if Graham needs another Golden Quest Item all he needs is to catch Mag-Gnat again. Hmm I wonder if it works as a compass for finding gold. ;D
Quote from: Cez on October 12, 2010, 03:04:38 PM
But if your theory holds, then the gnomes shouldn't have developed the senses in the way they did. Because there's nothing about the name "Gnome" that implies that they should have magnified senses.
So tell me... in terms of what fits the Isle of Wonders, what's the difference exactly between having five "Gnomes" that developed abnormal extra sensory abilities, and a "Mag-Gnat" that developed the abnormal ability to attract gold?
I'm pretty sure we already went over the gnomes earlier. ::) But I'll explain it again for anyone else who was having trouble keeping up.
The gnomes fit the scheme, because like the Chess pieces, they are personifications of objects and/or concepts--in this case the 5 senses. Each gnome embodies a different sense in a very physical way--i.e. huge hands for touch, huge eyes for sight, huge ears for hearing, etc.
That's a different part of the scheme though, and fairly unrelated to the concept of dual meaning puns/figures of speech.
The design scheme for Isle of Wonder logic/characters as it was defined in King's Quest 6 was that every character was either 1) a figure of speech or double-meaning pun/wordplay taken literally and given physical form, or 2) an object/concept personified--i.e. personified Chess pieces that walk and talk and are competitive, gnomes that physically embody the 5 senses, a black widow who embodies lust and the concept of the femme fatale (as well as being literally personified as a widow--she's kind of a mix of both types, actually.)
It's pretty simple, really. :)
You haven't answered my question. If you wanted to personify senses, you could have added hands and feet to a nose and an eye. These are GNOMES, and they have extra sensory abilities, something they SHOULDN'T have in the way it's depicted. Just the same way a Magnet SHOULDN'T have the ability to attract gold.
So, I insist, you haven't answered my question.
Quotehttp://cabbage's cry
Heh, real baby's tears aren't even cabbage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soleirolia_soleirolii
BTW, they aren't even cabbage in KQ6 (though there is a vague resemblence to cabbage patch kids), they are actually a baby's head flowery thing attached to a vine-like plant.
Here is the Guidebook's description for the Isle of Wonder;
PART III The Isle of Wonder
Imagine a place where the very path beneath your feet might complain of your weight, and the trees purposely drop twigs on your head for the sheer merriment of it all, and you`ll have an idea of what it's like to be on the Isle of Wonder. The Isle of Wonder is a comma shaped body of land that might as well resemble a question mark, for confusion and astonishment are sure to be a lot of the unknowing visitor. The island is teeming with life. Vegetation is abundant as are the island's inhabitants. In fact, the two are frequently the one and the same. One can scarcely pick up a grain of sand on that shore without it demanding to be put back... and this instant, if you please. The history of this unusual island is an issue of fervent speculation. That it was an uninteresting deserted island until a wizard enchanted the whole place, bringing everything in it to life, and presented it to his daughter as a birthday present. Others say that the island was once a prison of a beautiful princess, held captive there by a powerful and jealous queen. The maiden was so fair that the very trees and stones themselves could not bear to hear her crying, and came to life to provide her companionship. Still another group claims that the Creator of the Universe simply got tired of serious business of life giving and decided to indulge his or her sense of humour. Whatever the origin, a more delightful spot could scarcely be imagined. But be warned those travellers who like to know, exactly what to expect from life would be well advised to go elsewhere. Whilst most of the islands inhabitants are friendly. some of the thornier natives are capable of being downright rude!, and all are quirky. Visitors are frequent on the Isle of Wonder for it offers a refreshing respite from the ho-hum of everyday life. Even the King and Queen enjoy a picnic or a stroll in the gardens, and they are on occasion to be found relaxing and passing the time of day with the island's natives.
The rulers of the Isle of Wonder are a pair of queens, rivals in every way, and most frequently to be found arguing over everything from the color of the sky to the consistency of potato hash. Despite their eccentricities, the Isle of Wonder, seems to run smoothly and be a flourishing part of the kingdom, providing many exports and lending the kingdom a lightheartedness to counter the more serious countrymen on the Isle of the Sacred Mountain.
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100702201445/kingsquest/images/0/01/IoWSwamp.jpg)
No one has a problem with the Mag-Gnat. It's just been noted that it does not conform to the general theme displayed on the Isle of Wonder.
It's OK that it's different. Sierra took all the good ones already, including the ones not relevant to the puzzles such as sour grapes and cattails. So inventing a new creature that fits the scheme AND creates a good puzzle is a tall task indeed. So the Mag-Gnat misses, but just barely, and is probably about as good as one can do.
The Mag-Gnat is not even at the heart of the discussion. What we're discussing is whether the Isle of Wonder is simply a place where anything illogical flies or if there is something much more profound going on. As some of us have observed, the Isle of Wonder characters are based on literal interpretations of common idioms and phrases. So generally speaking, putting something in the game simply because it's "illogical" is not sufficient justification.
But again this isn't really about the Mag-Gnat. I'm just disappointed the designers are not acknowledging the running theme in the Isle of Wonder and its brilliant implementation.
Since you guys seem to be having so much trouble coming up with viable arguments to refute my points, I'll help you out. ;)
The best argument you could give for the Mag-Gnat's place on the Isle of Wonder would be the existence of anachronisms such as the Singing Stone. A stone that sings is certainly neither pun nor figure of speech (although it is a mythological object with roots in both Norse and Greek mythology.) It does technically fit the idea of a personified inanimate object, but unlike the Chess pieces, it doesn't also embody a concept (like competition.) The Singing Stone truly is a seemingly purposeless anachronism in a world that otherwise makes sense according to a very specific kind of logic. The Mag-Gnat would be most similar to the Singing Stone, because a gold-attracting magnet (or a gold-attracting gnat, for that matter) is also anachronistic. So if we include basic personified anachronisms in the scheme, the Mag-Gnat could fit (though the gnat part still makes no sense. ;))
Happy now? :)
(Posted on: October 12, 2010, 06:26:21 PM)
Quote from: Cez on October 12, 2010, 04:21:35 PM
You haven't answered my question. If you wanted to personify senses, you could have added hands and feet to a nose and an eye. These are GNOMES, and they have extra sensory abilities, something they SHOULDN'T have in the way it's depicted. Just the same way a Magnet SHOULDN'T have the ability to attract gold.
So, I insist, you haven't answered my question.
That would be one way to do it, or you could take a fairly generic fantasy character and add the exaggerated elements of single senses to each one, which is the route that Roberta and Jane clearly took. :) They're still working within the conventions of fairy tale settings and characters, so certain consistencies (like gnomes) crop up in pretty much every King's Quest game.
Quote from: Cez on October 12, 2010, 04:21:35 PM
You haven't answered my question. If you wanted to personify senses, you could have added hands and feet to a nose and an eye. These are GNOMES, and they have extra sensory abilities, something they SHOULDN'T have in the way it's depicted. Just the same way a Magnet SHOULDN'T have the ability to attract gold.
So, I insist, you haven't answered my question.
Each of the gnomes has a strong sense that is
intensified, but not
altered.
Huge Eyes has excellent vision, but he CANNOT visually detect objects that cannot be seen (such as invisible ink).
The Mag-Gnat is a strong magnet, and he CAN attract objects that cannot be magnetized (such as gold).
That is the difference.
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 12, 2010, 04:24:09 PM
The Mag-Gnat is not even at the heart of the discussion. What we're discussing is whether the Isle of Wonder is simply a place where anything illogical flies or if there is something much more profound going on...I'm just disappointed the designers are not acknowledging the running theme in the Isle of Wonder and its brilliant implementation.
Yeah, I agree with this. The beauty of the logic behind the Isle of Wonder isn't getting recognized at all here. It's surprising that anyone who was willing to devote so much time to a project based on a specific King's Quest game would be so dismissive of the genius behind the design of that initial game. :)
I actually don't have a problem refuting your points. I agree that the Gnomes are the personification of the senses, yet they are the wild card in the whole thing because they are creatures that represent a concept they don't have anything to do with.
In the case of Chess Pieces, yes, they encompass being competitive and that's a very good way to see it, but the Gnomes have absolutely nothing to do with amplified senses. To give them amplified senses would be the same than giving Peter Parker the ability to create spider webs. Which hints at the idea that, in the same way creatures have been given the ability to talk and walk, some creatures have been given extra abilities beyond what is considered normal.
So the Gnomes, again, the concept of amplified senses has nothing to do with them, other than they having senses already, and therefore, magnified. So, in that same way, it's not a crazy idea to do the same with a magnet's properties by taking the basic idea of what it is, and enhancing it to be more than that.
Quote from: Cez on October 12, 2010, 04:38:11 PM
So the Gnomes, again, the concept of amplified senses has nothing to do with them, other than they having senses already, and therefore, magnified. So, in that same way, it's not a crazy idea to do the same with a magnet's properties by taking the basic idea of what it is, and enhancing it to be more than that.
I can accept this explanation. :) But it still doesn't explain the gnat part. hehe.
(Posted on: October 12, 2010, 06:40:22 PM)
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 12, 2010, 04:30:36 PM
Each of the gnomes has a strong sense that is intensified, but not altered.
Huge Eyes has excellent vision, but he CANNOT visually detect objects that cannot be seen (such as invisible ink).
The Mag-Gnat is a strong magnet, and he CAN attract objects that cannot be magnetized (such as gold).
That is the difference.
On the other hand, this is also a very good point. :)
The Gnat part actually doesn't have anything to do with the insect. I just thought it was a cute name. To be completely honest, I didn't know the english word for that at the time I wrote the character :)
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 12, 2010, 04:30:36 PM
Quote from: Cez on October 12, 2010, 04:21:35 PM
You haven't answered my question. If you wanted to personify senses, you could have added hands and feet to a nose and an eye. These are GNOMES, and they have extra sensory abilities, something they SHOULDN'T have in the way it's depicted. Just the same way a Magnet SHOULDN'T have the ability to attract gold.
So, I insist, you haven't answered my question.
Each of the gnomes has a strong sense that is intensified, but not altered.
Huge Eyes has excellent vision, but he CANNOT visually detect objects that cannot be seen (such as invisible ink).
The Mag-Gnat is a strong magnet, and he CAN attract objects that cannot be magnetized (such as gold).
That is the difference.
Now that is getting to the bottom side of nitpicking, but, ok.
The concept of intensified abilities is really not explored in the Isles of Wonders. What it does is that it throws a completely random thing to the logical " illogical" world established, as you guys have defended.
So, instead of having, say, imagine we had a drink in this world called "Icy U" (lame I know, but just take it for the purpose of this explanation) --and having a literal froze U with a big eye, to keep within the concept of what's mostly there, they broke the rules, and had a Gnome with big eyes. Which really means that there is more to the concept of the Isle of Wonders that what you have implied. And really, since the text about it says it itself " people used to conventional life should go elsewhere" there's nothing that implies that the impossible couldn't happen in any way, shape or form.
Now, if you consider that the concept of altered properties is not part of the Isle of Wonders, well, yes, it is. It may be only in relation of direct puns, but the concept is there. The real Iceberg lettuce is a green and probably warm thing. The version in the isle of wonders altered its elements and made it a cold freezing piece of blue.
So you can consider Magnat's ability a combination of both. Magnified and altered both at the same time.
Quote from: KatieHal on October 12, 2010, 01:25:41 PM
I'll give you the Gnat part of it--I think he used to have wings but he doesn't now, and he does have the 'bug eyes' sort of, but yeah, he doesn't look terribly gnat-like despite his name.
I thought "gnat" was figurative, as in "an annoyance" (ie. Mag-Gnat = a magnetic annoyance).
Quote from: kindofdoon on October 12, 2010, 05:30:55 PM
Quote from: KatieHal on October 12, 2010, 01:25:41 PM
I'll give you the Gnat part of it--I think he used to have wings but he doesn't now, and he does have the 'bug eyes' sort of, but yeah, he doesn't look terribly gnat-like despite his name.
I thought "gnat" was figurative, as in "an annoyance" (ie. Mag-Gnat = a magnetic annoyance).
Ooooooooooooooooooh.
I think we have a winner!
Quote from: crayauchtin on October 12, 2010, 05:32:06 PM
Quote from: kindofdoon on October 12, 2010, 05:30:55 PM
Quote from: KatieHal on October 12, 2010, 01:25:41 PM
I'll give you the Gnat part of it--I think he used to have wings but he doesn't now, and he does have the 'bug eyes' sort of, but yeah, he doesn't look terribly gnat-like despite his name.
I thought "gnat" was figurative, as in "an annoyance" (ie. Mag-Gnat = a magnetic annoyance).
Ooooooooooooooooooh.
I think we have a winner!
Honestly, I didn't give it that much thought, but I'll take it :)
Quote from: shadyparadox on October 12, 2010, 04:24:09 PM
No one has a problem with the Mag-Gnat. It's just been noted that it does not conform to the general theme displayed on the Isle of Wonder.
It's OK that it's different. Sierra took all the good ones already, including the ones not relevant to the puzzles such as sour grapes and cattails. So inventing a new creature that fits the scheme AND creates a good puzzle is a tall task indeed. So the Mag-Gnat misses, but just barely, and is probably about as good as one can do.
The Mag-Gnat is not even at the heart of the discussion. What we're discussing is whether the Isle of Wonder is simply a place where anything illogical flies or if there is something much more profound going on. As some of us have observed, the Isle of Wonder characters are based on literal interpretations of common idioms and phrases. So generally speaking, putting something in the game simply because it's "illogical" is not sufficient justification.
But again this isn't really about the Mag-Gnat. I'm just disappointed the designers are not acknowledging the running theme in the Isle of Wonder and its brilliant implementation.
We are acknowledging it. I give you that the concept of the Magnat could have been implemented in a much smarter way --like lamb suggested having the key be made of fruit and then do a trail of fruity things, but it's also not like we put in something that defies everything seen in the Isle. It still fits the overall concept, if pushing the boundaries a bit --but again, the Gnomes do--, and definitely not in the brilliant way Roberta and Jane did --and I can probably excuse myself for my lack of control over the english language at the time, but I won't--, but we have acknowledged what this place is and you can notice it by the narrator's comments about this world, which almost quote directly the explanations given in the manual about it. I did try to immerse myself in every one of this isles as much as I could before I typed any of the narrator's comments.
For a science-y perspective, gold is actually diamagnetic - that is, it is repellled (weakly) by a magnetic field. However, if it could be given a net charge or if a circular current could be induced in it (such as in a solenoid), it would be attracted to a magnet. Maybe Mag-Gnat has the power to do this. :P
Quotehttp://made it a cold freezing piece of blue
It's actually a cold piece of green and white ice in KQ6, btw. Looks just like regular iceberg lettuce but melts like ice.
Your iceberg lettuce in Episode II is blue, and has a stem like a flower or rose, strangely enough. Doesn't really look like any lettuce I'm awhare of.
If it was just supposed to be a little guy who takes your money, you could have gone with
Gold Digger - A lady mole who steals your gold
or
Money Grubber - a grub who steals your gold
It's not rocket surgery.
Bt
LOL@ Gold Digger, nicely done :)
Quote from: Blackthorne on October 12, 2010, 07:04:20 PM
If it was just supposed to be a little guy who takes your money, you could have gone with
Gold Digger - A lady mole who steals your gold
or
Money Grubber - a grub who steals your gold
It's not rocket surgery.
Bt
No, but there's a puzzle to satisfy as well --which to me is the best puzzle of episode 2.
EDIT: Wow, I totally missed the irony of this. dammit, BT!
Ok, time to lower my guns.. read before you fire!
Quote from: Cez on October 12, 2010, 02:41:13 PM. . . and grain of sands may tell you to put them back . . .
So I'm quite interested in this little tidbit now... :)
Quote from: Enchantermon on October 12, 2010, 08:31:19 PM
Quote from: Cez on October 12, 2010, 02:41:13 PM. . . and grain of sands may tell you to put them back . . .
So I'm quite interested in this little tidbit now... :)
It's in the KQ Companion's description of the Isle--I'm not sure if there's a corresponding narration in KQ6. Now I'm curious about it, though. :)
QuoteIt's in the KQ Companion's description of the Isle--I'm not sure if there's a corresponding narration in KQ6. Now I'm curious about it, though.
It's from the Guidebook to the Land of the Green Isles, actually, the manual for KQ6, which was written by Jane Jensen.
Quote from: Baggins on October 12, 2010, 10:25:59 PM
QuoteIt's in the KQ Companion's description of the Isle--I'm not sure if there's a corresponding narration in KQ6. Now I'm curious about it, though.
It's from the Guidebook to the Land of the Green Isles, actually, the manual for KQ6, which was written by Jane Jensen.
Oops, you're right, I misread your previous post. Thanks for the correction, Sir. :)
Oh. Never mind, then; I thought we had gotten a hint of things to come.
Quote from: Blackthorne on October 12, 2010, 07:04:20 PM
If it was just supposed to be a little guy who takes your money, you could have gone with
Gold Digger - A lady mole who steals your gold
LOL...Nice, Steve. Gold Digger actually would have been really clever. :)