http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/games.php?action=detail&id=1345
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Someone is totally trolling me here
Old news.
Quote from: Tinu on January 02, 2011, 08:28:49 AM
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/games.php?action=detail&id=1345
:-\
Someone is totally trolling me here
(http://www.portalprelude.com/images/news/dude-wait-what.jpg)
I wish people would stop with all the KQIX remakes. Frankly, it's insulting. Phoenix put a lot of effort into making TSL and they've sacrificed a lot. To see people show their unhappiness with our hard work by making a "remake" is just plain rude and insulting, and honestly it isn't worth the effort.
This is the same "remake" of TSL (which, btw, is not a remake itself). This guy has since stopped making it, I believe, it was pretty much just a trolling thing.
Quote from: KatieHal on January 02, 2011, 12:49:12 PM
This is the same "remake" of TSL (which, btw, is not a remake itself). This guy has since stopped making it, I believe, it was pretty much just a trolling thing.
Well, I'm glad he stopped. It's just really insulting to see something like that. We as a team have invested a lot of time and effort into making this game, and to see people doing "remakes" is just disheartening juvenile really. if you don't like the game, tell us, and do so in a courteous and respectful manner. We've already incorporated fan requests to make the game better in episode 2, and who knows what improvements episode 3 will have...
I'd much rather people use their inguinity and make their own vision of KQ9, or original KQ game.... than ripoff assets from another game... A remake is a copout... Granted they'll probably get a C&D... but still.
Quote from: Baggins on January 02, 2011, 02:09:44 PM
I'd much rather people use their inguinity and make their own vision of KQ9, or original KQ game.... than ripoff assets from another game... A remake is a copout... Granted they'll probably get a C&D... but still.
For once, I agree with you baggins. I just hate seeing people rip off all of our hard work. It's really depressing.
Quote from: dark-daventry on January 02, 2011, 02:11:12 PM
For once, I agree with you baggins. I just hate seeing people rip off all of our hard work. It's really depressing.
Really? There are a number or remakes, and many people would love a "de-make" of MoE. When all is said and done if someone were to remake TSL in a different style it doesn't have to be insulting. Yes the "game" in discussion came about as an attempt to mock and insult...etc. but remakes of games are typically done because someone/people love a game/series. TSLs origins was like that. Although it is not a remake, people out there could say, "I just hate seeing people rip off all of our hard work. It's really depressing." Just because you aren't copying a game, you had no legal right to use the characters, lands and much of the story...etc. Do people hate you for it? Did Roberta Williams come out and make comments like that? No, she didn't. If someone at some time uses TSL to make a great game of their own, POS (I love the acronym btw) would have no ground to get all pissy about it. Just my 2 cents.
Well we actually have every right to be pissy about this one - there's a huge difference between remaking a game a decade later while giving credit to the original creators, and remaking a game that's currently in production and using the existing game's audio files, descriptions, writing, etc. without giving any credit to the people who actually created the game.
Quote from: wilco64256 on January 02, 2011, 05:41:41 PM
Well we actually have every right to be pissy about this one - there's a huge difference between remaking a game a decade later while giving credit to the original creators, and remaking a game that's currently in production and using the existing game's audio files, descriptions, writing, etc. without giving any credit to the people who actually created the game.
Thank you for posting that. It explains our point of view perfectly.
Quote from: wilco64256 on January 02, 2011, 05:41:41 PM
Well we actually have every right to be pissy about this one - there's a huge difference between remaking a game a decade later while giving credit to the original creators, and remaking a game that's currently in production and using the existing game's audio files, descriptions, writing, etc. without giving any credit to the people who actually created the game.
he was going to change that stuff in the final game.
he was just trolling I think. I don't think he was actually gonna remake the whole game.
still though, I kinda agree with everyone here....
whatever, I think it's dead now.
Of course this guy was trolling. The comment that I was commenting on made it sound like you were all upset about someone using your ideas. Sounds quite hypocritical is all I am saying. I have always been a supporter of TSL, and I hope the rest of the chapters are great. I just think you shouldn't get mad when people do stuff with your work. Ten days or ten years later it makes no difference. In the line of remakes and using other intellectual property you just can't get upset when it happens to you.
Quote from: chucklas on January 02, 2011, 06:35:32 PM
Of course this guy was trolling. The comment that I was commenting on made it sound like you were all upset about someone using your ideas. Sounds quite hypocritical is all I am saying. I have always been a supporter of TSL, and I hope the rest of the chapters are great. I just think you shouldn't get mad when people do stuff with your work. Ten days or ten years later it makes no difference. In the line of remakes and using other intellectual property you just can't get upset when it happens to you.
The difference for us is that we have the permission of the people who own the series and we give them credit for their ownership every step of the way. This guy, trolling or not, creating something that wasn't just
based on TSL but actually used our assets that we created without asking permission or even acknowledging that he was using someone else's property.
Yeah, but let's keep things in perspective, shall we? You didn't ALWAYS have permission. In fact, that permission was only very recently gained, relatively speaking, and only then because the cat was so far out of the bag and because the C&D had turned into a huge PR nightmare for a parent company that was already hurting in that area because of the whole Infinity Ward fiasco. So it's really not all that different, just the intentions of the "team" are different (i.e. trolling vs. tribute.)
Could we not argue about this on the forums? The fact of the matter is that we're making tsl, and there are "remakes" out there of our game. You can discuss it, but I don't want to see this turning into a full-blown argument. Let's try to keep things under control here, shall we? Not that you're getting out of line or anything, but it is heading down that path, and I'd like to try and avoid going down that route.
He was a troll. Banned on numerous boards for being as much, including this one (and yes, we gave him a chance to not be one). But yes, his project is dead, and this has all been discussed before.
Quote from: Lambonius on January 02, 2011, 08:29:53 PM
Yeah, but let's keep things in perspective, shall we? You didn't ALWAYS have permission. In fact, that permission was only very recently gained, relatively speaking, and only then because the cat was so far out of the bag and because the C&D had turned into a huge PR nightmare for a parent company that was already hurting in that area because of the whole Infinity Ward fiasco. So it's really not all that different, just the intentions of the "team" are different (i.e. trolling vs. tribute.)
I think I should clarify a little - Not speaking for the entire team, but personally I have no problem with this guy making his own King's Quest IX or whatever he wants to call it. He can make all the games he wants and so can everybody else. The only aspect of his project that I take issue with is the fact that he took
our work and distributed it as his own. I have a problem with any person who takes work that someone else does and either claims or simply implies that it is their own creation. I thought that his art work was excellent and said on a number of occasions that I would have liked to have seen what he could do with his own writers and voice actors.
I am and always have been a huge fan of fan projects that are done to promote the positive nature of gaming and that pay proper respects to whatever they're based on - I think that fans often do a really excellent job of working to keep particular game series and franchises alive.
Quote from: wilco64256 on January 02, 2011, 09:59:26 PM
Quote from: Lambonius on January 02, 2011, 08:29:53 PM
Yeah, but let's keep things in perspective, shall we? You didn't ALWAYS have permission. In fact, that permission was only very recently gained, relatively speaking, and only then because the cat was so far out of the bag and because the C&D had turned into a huge PR nightmare for a parent company that was already hurting in that area because of the whole Infinity Ward fiasco. So it's really not all that different, just the intentions of the "team" are different (i.e. trolling vs. tribute.)
I think I should clarify a little - Not speaking for the entire team, but personally I have no problem with this guy making his own King's Quest IX or whatever he wants to call it. He can make all the games he wants and so can everybody else. The only aspect of his project that I take issue with is the fact that he took our work and distributed it as his own. I have a problem with any person who takes work that someone else does and either claims or simply implies that it is their own creation. I thought that his art work was excellent and said on a number of occasions that I would have liked to have seen what he could do with his own writers and voice actors.
I am and always have been a huge fan of fan projects that are done to promote the positive nature of gaming and that pay proper respects to whatever they're based on - I think that fans often do a really excellent job of working to keep particular game series and franchises alive.
That they do, as evidenced by our own project, as well as both the AGD remakes and the Infamous-Adventures remakes. I believe in the power of the fans first and foremost.
Quote from: dark-daventry on January 02, 2011, 08:40:36 PM
Could we not argue about this on the forums? The fact of the matter is that we're making tsl, and there are "remakes" out there of our game. You can discuss it, but I don't want to see this turning into a full-blown argument. Let's try to keep things under control here, shall we? Not that you're getting out of line or anything, but it is heading down that path, and I'd like to try and avoid going down that route.
I'm not really interested in inciting an argument either--I'm just pointing out that it's really just a matter of perspective and intention. If someone did a VGA de-make of TSL as a loving tribute to the game, but that still used the same exact script--it'd still technically be "stealing your resources" to use in another's project, no different than what the aforementioned guy was doing, but somehow I have a feeling no one here would have a problem with it. And to be fair, I don't think that guy was ever claiming any of the writing or story elements as his own creations.
He wasn't exactly tripping over himself to say who DID write it and voice and compose it, either.
It seems as though everyone is in agreement that he was trollingonly to incite argument...etc. My only point is that you shouldn't get upset because people use your material. Script vs characters and concepts have very little difference. I just think that if anyone should be open to the idea of people using their ideas and materials, it should be those who have been doing the same thing. Thats all. I am not trying to start a fight about anything, I just wanted to give you the perspective from someone not involved with either project. Sometimes it is hard to step out of your position to see things from a neutral position.
It is. There was also the fact that we didn't want what he was doing to affect our agreement with Activision, which has some specific stipulations about distribution, naming, etc, to it, should they have come across his project as well and thought it was connected to us in any way. A slim chance, but a real concern.
We actually don't mind much that people use our assets --which is why we never really worried to encrypt our source code or files. But, like it's been mentioned before here, it's a matter of intent and timing.
intent because yes, he did not ask for permission. Lamb, we didn't recently just got "permission". We had the blessings from Roberta and Ken Williams since the first year of production --which is something we sought out to do, and which to me is more important than the legal permission we got later from Vivendi and Activision. And intent because it's very different to have someone do something out of love, than to have someone do something out of disrespect. Cannot be really blamed for that.
Timing because, like Weldon's saying, we are doing a game right now, and we have put too much effort into this for someone else to run into that game and believe that's what we are doing, including legal reasons, press, etc.
So, it's not being a hypocrite. Very far from that. It potentially can hurt what we are currently producing, and that's what bothers me about it.
Cez, I completely agree with the reasons you gave for being upset. Those are far from the "I just hate seeing people rip off all of our hard work. It's really depressing" that I talking about to begin with.
Good luck with the rest of the game! I am looking forward to playing it.
Thanks!
And yeah, I mean, when I go to youtube or deviantart, etc, I really don't mind that people have grabbed assets to do fan things about us. So, the point you and Lamb were trying to make is very valid from that angle. Still, fan products that happen during production are normally harmless because they are not competing against the main product or trying to take advantage of it, but rather are fun things for the community, and they are very welcomed by us as long as they respect their source material.
We recently had someone use Michael Fortunato's artwork to stamp it on a book that was selling through amazon or some other place. That's another example of something that is distasteful.
So I think we are all on the same page here. It's not the using of the assets, but what you do with the assets that you are using what matters. I would never say no to a request for a well intentioned TSL-related product if it doesn't have bad repercussions on the game itself. Look at for example what those german guys did for Tales of Monkey Island (the what happens next!)
Quote from: Cez on January 03, 2011, 12:58:09 PM
Thanks!
And yeah, I mean, when I go to youtube or deviantart, etc, I really don't mind that people have grabbed assets to do fan things about us. So, the point you and Lamb were trying to make is very valid from that angle. Still, fan products that happen during production are normally harmless because they are not competing against the main product or trying to take advantage of it, but rather are fun things for the community, and they are very welcomed by us as long as they respect their source material.
We recently had someone use Michael Fortunato's artwork to stamp it on a book that was selling through amazon or some other place. That's another example of something that is distasteful.
So I think we are all on the same page here. It's not the using of the assets, but what you do with the assets that you are using what matters. I would never say no to a request for a well intentioned TSL-related product if it doesn't have bad repercussions on the game itself. Look at for example what those german guys did for Tales of Monkey Island (the what happens next!)
That's the point I was trying to get at. I just can't articulate my thoughts well. No wonder I failed 8th grade law class XD
It's just a pity that Magic Mirror is working with this arsehole - it makes me not want to play their remake of KQ IV.
[Edited posts because, I've realised that even if I wouldn't play it, I wouldn't want it not completed.]
Quote from: Sslaxx on January 11, 2011, 06:08:33 AM
It's just a pity that Magic Mirror is working with this arsehole - it makes me not want to play their remake of KQ IV. In fact, it makes me want it to not be completed.
I don't follow that logic, sorry.
Blame it on me if it makes you feel better. I am 100 percent responsible that he is working there. I thought it would be better for everyone, seeing as they needed help and he needed something real to do. (and from what I understand, his work is really good so far)
also.... don't you want a KQ4 remake? When it all comes down to it, I would play a KQ4 remake that was good no matter how much I hated the team. I happen to really like the team though, personally.
Consider his past actions. He is clearly not very likeable. Now what happens if there's a conflict between him and the Magic Mirror team? I'm not sure I'd want to find out, if I was on the Magic Mirror team. KQIV-Team is born? His talent doesn't make up for his being an arsehole in my mind.
I'd rather see http://www.bigbluecup.com/yabb/index.php?topic=39874.0 Nightfable's effort succeed in that case.
[Edited posts because, I've realised that even if I wouldn't play it, I wouldn't want it not completed.]
I don't bear Magic Mirror any ill will, although I don't have any fondness for "KQIX-Team/King Alexander". But I must say Nightfable's artwork is great, I really love her picture of Lolotte especially!
I want MMGames remake to succeed. I have been following them for almost as long as TSL. Whatever though. Nightfables remake looks pretty good as well. I like the talk portraits.
If the MMGames remake is finished I will be very happy. You can choose to not play it for whatever reason, but I dunno. I don't care. Especially since I got him on the team, I am happy to see the team succeed.
He was trolling. Now he is not trolling. He was an a****** (arsehole :P over in england), but now he is serious. I don't care about his past actions anymore.
Fair enough. I tend to hold grudges for a while (as some here could tell you!).
I'm with atec. As long the remake gets completed and completed well, I don't really care who is on the team; I will be glad to see it finally come to completion and I will play it with a thankful heart. :)
While I'm very supportive of any remake of KQ4 that gets done..... I think I would prefer Nightfable's version.
Why?
Other than the KQIX-Team joining them and my thoughts on his being an incredible jerk....
I don't think that Magic Mirror has a super-clear vision for their remake. There was discussion on their forums of adding subplots and "improvements" in a KQ2+ style but.... without any overarching theme or with maintaining the same tone throughout. It seemed more like "let's add stuff!! YAYYYYYY!!!!!!" "But what stuff?" "Oh, we'll figure it out later. Add stuff! YAYYYY!!!!!" "Awesome!"
Granted, this was a while ago, but it still left me with an unsettling feeling about the whole project. I liked the KQ2+ remake and I liked the changes in the KQ3+ remake because they fit. They weren't random, they all fit in the same tone of the game, they made sense. That was not the direction I felt MM was heading when it was being discussed.
Also, now that I've seen it....I much prefer Nightfable's Rosellla sprite. And I simply LOVE her dialogue portrait of Lolotte. Incredible work. Even the artistic style of the other things she's shown seem... I don't know, I just like them all better.
That being said, I am playing any KQ4 remake that gets made, no matter by whom.
Another KQ4 remake! I'd love to play any remake of KQ4, especially when I have the other three that were made on my computer. People are really talented these days and I love how people are really putting their hearts and souls into a genre that was practically dead.
As I recall MMG's plan was to make two remakes. One was going to be a straight remake of KQ4, nothing changed (except for maybe the removal of the in-game clock). This was to be made first.
The second version was going to be a KQ4+, in which forumites were suggesting all sorts of ideas they would like to see in the game. Note not all the forumites were members of the team.
The reason why ideas of the KQ4+ remake were undefined, and unclear, was because, 1. it was going to be made later, and 2. quite a few of the ideas were not released to the public. They might have tossed out a few ideas, to test the waters.
I know a few of their members tossed more detailed script/ideas out to me, in private messages, asking for advice (to help the material to better fit in with the greater KQ material). How much of the that advice they took into account, or plan to take into account who knows (it was a long time ago, and I assume things may have changed alot since then)... I will not discuss this information however, as its confidential.
If this is saying what I think it is, then it sounds like he's a perfect fit (http://www.infamous-adventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=3941.0), doesn't it?
Quote from: Sslaxx on January 18, 2011, 05:54:41 AM
If this is saying what I think it is, then it sounds like he's a perfect fit (http://"http://www.infamous-adventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=3941.0"), doesn't it?
wait, what?
I think he suspects IA's hater there is the same guy.
Quote from: KatieHal on January 18, 2011, 08:58:09 AM
I think he suspects IA's hater there is the same guy.
Perhaps, but one of IA's people does strongly imply it is at least someone connected to MMG...
Quote from: Sslaxx on January 18, 2011, 09:28:08 AM
Quote from: KatieHal on January 18, 2011, 08:58:09 AM
I think he suspects IA's hater there is the same guy.
Perhaps, but one of IA's people does strongly imply it is at least someone connected to MMG...
ahh. I am pretty sure that is not the case. he likes IA and AGDI IIRC. He had something against 3d games and so he was just trolling here.
I really don't care that much if the KQIXVGA guy does stuff for the KQ4 Remake by MMG. If he is good in what he does and works for something that is good then I don't see the problem.
The best thing would be Nightfable joining MMG to work on the remake, her stuff is awesome and the game could be finished quicker. Wow, then we would have the whole KQ series in VGA and P&C...
I just want to see a remake of KQ4. I Don't care who makes it. I just want a high quality remake of KQ4. nothing more, nothing less.
Quote from: atec123 on January 18, 2011, 03:56:34 PM
Quote from: Sslaxx on January 18, 2011, 09:28:08 AM
Quote from: KatieHal on January 18, 2011, 08:58:09 AM
I think he suspects IA's hater there is the same guy.
Perhaps, but one of IA's people does strongly imply it is at least someone connected to MMG...
ahh. I am pretty sure that is not the case. he likes IA and AGDI IIRC. He had something against 3d games and so he was just trolling here.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't just the fact that it was in 3D...
I personally don't have anything against 3D. I think Roberta Williams was onto something when she made Mask of Eternity. King's Quest works great in a 3D environment. Unfortunately, it was a FPS, and not a quest game in the end, so it attracted a different audience. I think TSL is the direction KQ8 should have been, but that's the nostalgic me that says that. Perhaps the market really only wanted FPS back then :( What ever the case, a story can be told in many ways. It's just immature to think that Kings Quest MUST be a platform game just because the first 7 were. They didn't have 3D engines back then.
Quote from: Arkillian on January 19, 2011, 02:55:40 PM
Unfortunately, [Mask of Eternity] was a FPS...
FPS stands for first-person shooter, which
Mask was not.
Quote from: Arkillian on January 19, 2011, 02:55:40 PM
It's just immature to think that Kings Quest MUST be a platform game just because the first 7 were.
KQ is not a platforming series.
Quote from: kindofdoon on January 19, 2011, 03:19:13 PM
Quote from: Arkillian on January 19, 2011, 02:55:40 PM
Unfortunately, [Mask of Eternity] was a FPS...
FPS stands for first-person shooter, which Mask was not.
Quote from: Arkillian on January 19, 2011, 02:55:40 PM
It's just immature to think that Kings Quest MUST be a platform game just because the first 7 were.
KQ is not a platforming series.
*Inserts the correct version of what everyone knows I'm trying to convey into my points*
Quote from: kindofdoon on January 19, 2011, 03:19:13 PM
Quote from: Arkillian on January 19, 2011, 02:55:40 PM
Unfortunately, [Mask of Eternity] was a FPS...
FPS stands for first-person shooter, which Mask was not.
FPS can also mean "first-person sworder" which it would be hard to argue Mask was not. :P
Quote from: Delling on January 20, 2011, 04:42:16 AM
FPS can also mean "first-person sworder" which it would be hard to argue Mask was not. :P
Except for the "first-person" part. . . ;)
Third person shooter then. I'm not a programmer so my syntax isn't perfect. I don't know what the dynamic name for a platform game is though. I'd like to think that people understood what I meant despite this. King's quest 1-7 had sprites moving about in 4 or 8 directions on a platform of tilted sorts.
My main point is that the graphic don't matter. What matters is the plot and how they pull it off. The retro gamer in me actually REALLY likes how there are imperfections in the characters in TSL. I like how dynamic the lighting is, and how expressive the characters are. That to me is important. I play ascii games still that have more entertainment value than alot of games out there still. IF being 3D is putting people off, then they're just looking for reasons to hate on someone's hard work.
Quote from: duke on January 20, 2011, 04:54:46 AM
Quote from: Delling on January 20, 2011, 04:42:16 AM
FPS can also mean "first-person sworder" which it would be hard to argue Mask was not. :P
Except for the "first-person" part. . . ;)
meh, I must be misremembering: I thought it had a first-person mode *shrugs*
Quote from: Arkillian on January 20, 2011, 05:19:53 AM
Third person shooter then. I'm not a programmer so my syntax isn't perfect. I don't know what the dynamic name for a platform game is though.
I understood you.
KQVIII was an action-adventure game, or if you want to be more specific, a third-person shooter. All of the other KQ games were adventure games.
Platformers, for the record, are games like the original Super Mario Bros. games (though they don't necessarily have to be side-scrollers either).
Quote from: Delling on January 20, 2011, 06:20:23 AM
Quote from: duke on January 20, 2011, 04:54:46 AM
Quote from: Delling on January 20, 2011, 04:42:16 AM
FPS can also mean "first-person sworder" which it would be hard to argue Mask was not. :P
Except for the "first-person" part. . . ;)
meh, I must be misremembering: I thought it had a first-person mode *shrugs*
it does, but it sucks (imo)
Quote from: Delling on January 20, 2011, 04:42:16 AM
[FPS can also mean "first-person sworder" which it would be hard to argue Mask was not. :P
You mean I didn't make that term up? :P
Quote from: atec123 on January 20, 2011, 07:30:29 AM
Quote from: Delling on January 20, 2011, 06:20:23 AM
Quote from: duke on January 20, 2011, 04:54:46 AM
Quote from: Delling on January 20, 2011, 04:42:16 AM
FPS can also mean "first-person sworder" which it would be hard to argue Mask was not. :P
Except for the "first-person" part. . . ;)
meh, I must be misremembering: I thought it had a first-person mode *shrugs*
it does, but it sucks (imo)
:rofl: I was actually going to put in that post something along the lines of "but I don't think anyone used it because it sucked"
Also, this means I was right in saying it would be hard to argue that it was not a first-person sworder (many first person shooters include a third person mode, and no one suggests that they are third person shooters).
Let's get back to the topic at hand, shall we? If you wish to discuss MoE further, you're more than welcome to create a thread to do so. But let's keep this thread on the topic of remakes, shall we?
Quote from: atec123 on January 20, 2011, 07:30:29 AM
Quote from: Delling on January 20, 2011, 06:20:23 AM
Quote from: duke on January 20, 2011, 04:54:46 AM
Quote from: Delling on January 20, 2011, 04:42:16 AM
FPS can also mean "first-person sworder" which it would be hard to argue Mask was not. :P
Except for the "first-person" part. . . ;)
meh, I must be misremembering: I thought it had a first-person mode *shrugs*
it does, but it sucks (imo)
Ah well I stand corrected then. I must have never even worked out how to switch to first person.
Anyway, Arkillian, I understand what you're saying and agree with you. In this sort of game it's the characters and plot which make or break it, as well as the gameplay (specifically the puzzles) . If it can have these things as well as looking good then that's even better.
Also, even though TSL is 3D, it still plays basically the same as the classic 2D point and click games. So I think anybody who claims to be put off by the fact that it's 3D (which IMO is a great way to modernise the series, and the genre in general) is really just trying to find excuses to hate.
QuoteKQVIII was an action-adventure game, or if you want to be more specific, a third-person shooter. All of the other KQ games were adventure games.
Platformers, for the record, are games like the original Super Mario Bros. games (though they don't necessarily have to be side-scrollers either).
It's not exactly a third person shooter either. Its a bit of a point and click hack and slash, diablo-style rpg. That hack and slash button mashing occurs both in third or first person, depending on how you want to play the game. Its not something that really relies on skill, nor does it rely on aiming or reflexes (as most shooters require), just one's skill in clicking on an enemy until they die.
It also has a bit of tomb raider style action/adventure platforming in places. A bit of LOZ:OOT box puzzles, and somewhat hybrid rpg/adventure like QFG series.
Along with maintaining the single cursor + inventory from KQ7 for classic adventure game puzzles included in the game.
Still, I agree a game having 3-d elements doesn't make it "suck". There is nothing wrong with TSL's use of 3-d.