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Haven => The Asylum! => Topic started by: Haids1987 on January 31, 2011, 12:25:04 PM

Title: A fight to the death!
Post by: Haids1987 on January 31, 2011, 12:25:04 PM
I may have asked this before, but I don't remember getting any satisfying answers, so I'm asking again!

It's a fight to the death!  There can only be one winner--no ties, no surrenders, no remaining Horocruxes, and no running away like a little sissy.  Lord Voldemort vs. Darth Vader!  Who would win?  Is it Voldemort, with his Unforgivable Curses and awesome magic skills?  Or is it Darth Vader, with his use of the Force and the ability to put a stranglehold on victims from across the room?

We have never settled this debate.  Discuss.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: dark-daventry on January 31, 2011, 01:20:04 PM
Darth Vader. Hands down. Darth Vader wields the force at an unparalleled level. His mastery of it is nothing short of astounding. Plus, he wields a lightsaber. While we don't know what the effects of magic are on a lightsaber, I'm going to hazard a guess and say that the lightsaber would win, based on the fact that it is able to block all manner of protectiles, includiing laser blasts. But that is mere speculation. Also, he wields force lightning. That's all you need to know.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: KatieHal on January 31, 2011, 01:36:06 PM
All true, but: Voldemort has mastery of a curse of instant death. That only Harry Potter ever survived, and that due only to his own mother's sacrifice of her life for him. I don't really see anyone jumping in and taking that bullet for Vader.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: dark-daventry on January 31, 2011, 01:39:48 PM
All true, but: Voldemort has mastery of a curse of instant death. That only Harry Potter ever survived, and that due only to his own mother's sacrifice of her life for him. I don't really see anyone jumping in and taking that bullet for Vader.

But if vader uses his lightsaber, he can deflect it. Also, he could use force grip to use his own men to block for him. No one ever said people had to be willing to take a bullet for vader. He is a sith lord after all.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: Arkillian on January 31, 2011, 02:26:50 PM
Darth Vader- if not due to epicness, then due to his power coming from power rather than sneekiness and spit. Darth Vader is passionate about being an overlord. Voldemort is passionate of 'cleaning out the muggles'. Because of this, Vader will always be stronger cause his sense of direction is clear to him and not angry.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: snabbott on January 31, 2011, 02:44:47 PM
Darth Vader. Voldemort has the killing curse, but it requires use of a wand. Vader could snatch the wand away before Voldemort could ever get the words out.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: KatieHal on January 31, 2011, 03:05:22 PM
Darth Vader. Voldemort has the killing curse, but it requires use of a wand. Vader could snatch the wand away before Voldemort could ever get the words out.

This is the only argument so far that convinces me Vader could dodge the Killing Curse.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: dark-daventry on January 31, 2011, 03:52:04 PM
Darth Vader. Voldemort has the killing curse, but it requires use of a wand. Vader could snatch the wand away before Voldemort could ever get the words out.

This is the only argument so far that convinces me Vader could dodge the Killing Curse.

A lightsaber can't block the killing curse? Could've fooled me...
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: KatieHal on January 31, 2011, 05:22:12 PM
How could it block a magic spell? The only non-solid thing it's been seen to absorb/deflect is force lightning, and even the results don't always seem 100%. The light saber itself isn't magical or Force-created, it's a piece of technology, it's just that it's the traditional weapon of Jedi.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: Haids1987 on January 31, 2011, 05:42:18 PM
Darth Vader. Voldemort has the killing curse, but it requires use of a wand. Vader could snatch the wand away before Voldemort could ever get the words out.
Ooooh, good point!  I hadn't considered that one.  But Voldemort is a master at Occlumency, don't forget.  He can go into people's subconscious and see what's going on in their head.  He might be able to dodge a wand snatch before Vader could even raise his hands.

Voldemort has mastery of a curse of instant death. That only Harry Potter ever survived, and that due only to his own mother's sacrifice of her life for him.
Another great point.  See!  This is what makes this such a tough debate!  Me, I could never decide.  And btw, Katie, you seem to be on the side of Voldemort.  Vote!

How could it block a magic spell? The only non-solid thing it's been seen to absorb/deflect is force lightning, and even the results don't always seem 100%. The light saber itself isn't magical or Force-created, it's a piece of technology, it's just that it's the traditional weapon of Jedi.
Ah, but doesn't Harry see green light whenever Voldemort uses Avada Cadavra?  There has to be SOME kind of solidity to the spell, if it produces light.  Maybe the lightsaber could block it...?
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: kindofdoon on January 31, 2011, 08:55:14 PM
I like Darth Vader much more than Voldemort, but their powers are unmatched. Vader wouldn't be able to parry a killing curse.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: KatieHal on January 31, 2011, 09:15:50 PM
I'm not convinced of either winning, actually, but someone's gotta play Devil's Advocate and argue for Voldy ;)

Anyways, green light isn't a physical thing; it can't be blocked or deflected like a bullet. Light is a produced effect of the spell, it isn't necessarily the thing itself. At best the argument of Vader being able to block the spell with his lightsaber is inconclusive.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: LadyTerra on January 31, 2011, 09:23:12 PM
The Killing Curse has to be somewhat tangible since it produces light (and light indicates the release of energy, which isn't nothing).  I have a theory that it's electrically based, sort of like a reverse defibrillator, which is why it can stop the heart without leaving a mark and why that energy tends to travel in a straight line.  Even if it wasn't just a giant electric shock, it could be easily parried with a lightsaber since we all know lightsabers can parry energy blasters.

You also can't count out standard Force powers, like super speed, Force Jump, Invisibility, etc.  The Killing Curse, and all of Voldemort's spells for that matter, require his wand to work and specific gestures.  If you can get close enough to Voldemort to disrupt his spellcasting in some way, he's completely defenseless, especially considering he's likely spent more time studying Dark Arts instead of exercising.  Darth Vader would win hands down.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: darthkiwi on February 01, 2011, 03:07:17 AM
I voted for Voldemort, using the following logic:

- Force powers and magic are more or less equivalent
- Voldemort has magic
- Darth Vader has force powers AND a lightsaber

So, logically, Vader should be able to win.

On the other hand... I'm really not convinced by the idea of a lightsaber blocking a magic spell. Both force powers and spells work via the same kind of logic, ie. "It just happens!", and since a lightsaber can't block a force power, I don't think it could block a spell.

Also, if Voldemort is a master of Occlumency, then Vader may have trouble attacking at all, since Voldemort could feasibly foresee the attack and dodge. But, the Force can be used to play mind tricks too, so maybe it would be more even than we've supposed...

Also, one last thing: Voldemort needs his wand to use magic, but Vader doesn't need his lightsaber to use the Force; it's just handy to have. So if the fight ever got to the stage where they were disarming each other, Vader would have a considerable advantage, since if he could snatch Voldy's wand out of his hand with the force, Voldy would be pretty much defenceless.

Although, of course, if Voldemort has a stash of Horcruxes then he can't actually be killed XD
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: KatieHal on February 01, 2011, 05:19:18 AM
Oh ! Duh! Horcruxes! Yeah, how could I forget that? That's huge.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: kindofdoon on February 01, 2011, 07:50:16 AM
I've been told my HP-addicted younger brother that the killing curse burns/disintegrates inanimate objects. Therefore a lightsaber could easily be dispatched by a killing curse.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: snabbott on February 01, 2011, 08:28:44 AM
Oh ! Duh! Horcruxes! Yeah, how could I forget that? That's huge.
Oh, yeah! Good point. He can be *mostly* killed, though. I guess it depends on the definition of "to the death" then.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: Delling on February 01, 2011, 08:33:48 AM
Oh ! Duh! Horcruxes! Yeah, how could I forget that? That's huge.
Oh, yeah! Good point. He can be *mostly* killed, though. I guess it depends on the definition of "to the death" then.
But, as I hope we all know, with mostly dead, you (and he) have more options than going through his pockets for loose change. ;P
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: dark-daventry on February 01, 2011, 10:59:36 AM
I've been told my HP-addicted younger brother that the killing curse burns/disintegrates inanimate objects. Therefore a lightsaber could easily be dispatched by a killing curse.

Can we get some verification on this?
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: writerlove on February 01, 2011, 11:03:16 AM
This is the most random topic have ever seen on these boards!  :rofl:
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: dark-daventry on February 01, 2011, 11:09:58 AM
This is the most random topic have ever seen on these boards!  :rofl:

I wouldn't go that far; I've been around a while, and I'm sure there are even more random topics than this buried somewhere in the Royal Archives.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: Haids1987 on February 01, 2011, 12:09:00 PM
But, as I hope we all know, with mostly dead, you (and he) have more options than going through his pockets for loose change. ;P
YES!  THIS!  You win, Delling!  XD You so took the words out of my mouth! :rofl:

(Out of my hands?  Off of the keyboard? :P)
Oh ! Duh! Horcruxes! Yeah, how could I forget that? That's huge.
Oh, yeah! Good point. He can be *mostly* killed, though. I guess it depends on the definition of "to the death" then.
Shall I edit the post to "no ties, no surrenders, no remaining Horocruxes, and no running away like a little sissy?"
Also, one last thing: Voldemort needs his wand to use magic, but Vader doesn't need his lightsaber to use the Force; it's just handy to have. So if the fight ever got to the stage where they were disarming each other, Vader would have a considerable advantage, since if he could snatch Voldy's wand out of his hand with the force, Voldy would be pretty much defenceless.
Whoa, right!  I've been on the fence for years, but you might be pushing me over the edge to Vader's side with this logic...
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: dark-daventry on February 01, 2011, 12:13:44 PM
But, as I hope we all know, with mostly dead, you (and he) have more options than going through his pockets for loose change. ;P
YES!  THIS!  You win, Delling!  XD You so took the words out of my mouth! :rofl:

(Out of my hands?  Off of the keyboard? :P)
Oh ! Duh! Horcruxes! Yeah, how could I forget that? That's huge.
Oh, yeah! Good point. He can be *mostly* killed, though. I guess it depends on the definition of "to the death" then.
Shall I edit the post to "no ties, no surrenders, no remaining Horocruxes, and no running away like a little sissy?"
Also, one last thing: Voldemort needs his wand to use magic, but Vader doesn't need his lightsaber to use the Force; it's just handy to have. So if the fight ever got to the stage where they were disarming each other, Vader would have a considerable advantage, since if he could snatch Voldy's wand out of his hand with the force, Voldy would be pretty much defenceless.
Whoa, right!  I've been on the fence for years, but you might be pushing me over the edge to Vader's side with this logic...

It's always good to have your bases covered, so might as well go ahead and edit the first post to put all that stuff in there...

Come on, haids! Join the dark side like me! We've got cookies! Don't you want some delicious cookies?
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: KatieHal on February 01, 2011, 12:15:34 PM
If you're going to take away Horcruxes, you need to take away Vader's army. Both of those things are the only reasons these bad guys didn't die earlier and what protect them from harm and damage on a larger scale.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: Haids1987 on February 01, 2011, 12:19:13 PM
If you're going to take away Horcruxes, you need to take away Vader's army. Both of those things are the only reasons these bad guys didn't die earlier and what protect them from harm and damage on a larger scale.
Of course!  I wasn't thinking that the Storm Troopers or the Emperor would be in on this, I was picturing the epic lightsaber duel between Luke and Vader--only I replaced Luke with Voldemort. :P

(Posted on: February 01, 2011, 12:17:53 PM)


It's always good to have your bases covered, so might as well go ahead and edit the first post to put all that stuff in there...

Come on, haids! Join the dark side like me! We've got cookies! Don't you want some delicious cookies?
Hmm, cookies DO sounds tempting...but my sister made some sweet white chocolate chip cookies and I think I'm contented in that respect. :pleased:

I'll get back to you on that one, though.  I still can't make up my mind. :P
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: Delling on February 01, 2011, 02:00:14 PM
It's always good to have your bases covered, so might as well go ahead and edit the first post to put all that stuff in there...

Come on, haids! Join the dark side like me! We've got cookies! Don't you want some delicious cookies?

If you're choosing between Voldemort and Vader... that's a choice between dark sides. ::)
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: Haids1987 on February 01, 2011, 05:38:29 PM
It's always good to have your bases covered, so might as well go ahead and edit the first post to put all that stuff in there...

Come on, haids! Join the dark side like me! We've got cookies! Don't you want some delicious cookies?

If you're choosing between Voldemort and Vader... that's a choice between dark sides. ::)
Oooooooooh!  Touche, my friend.  Touche.  So what is Voldemort's dark side offering me, hmmmmmm?
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: dark-daventry on February 01, 2011, 08:36:12 PM
It's always good to have your bases covered, so might as well go ahead and edit the first post to put all that stuff in there...

Come on, haids! Join the dark side like me! We've got cookies! Don't you want some delicious cookies?

If you're choosing between Voldemort and Vader... that's a choice between dark sides. ::)
Oooooooooh!  Touche, my friend.  Touche.  So what is Voldemort's dark side offering me, hmmmmmm?

Nothin. Except for dudes with creepy voices and one odd fetish for snakes. Darth Vader, on the other hand, has that awesome helmet, the force, and of course, cookies.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: Haids1987 on February 01, 2011, 09:21:56 PM
Oooooooooh!  Touche, my friend.  Touche.  So what is Voldemort's dark side offering me, hmmmmmm?
Nothin. Except for dudes with creepy voices and one odd fetish for snakes. Darth Vader, on the other hand, has that awesome helmet, the force, and of course, cookies.
And he goets to spend some up-close-and-personal time with Han Solo...:smitten:
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: dark-daventry on February 01, 2011, 09:26:40 PM
Oooooooooh!  Touche, my friend.  Touche.  So what is Voldemort's dark side offering me, hmmmmmm?
Nothin. Except for dudes with creepy voices and one odd fetish for snakes. Darth Vader, on the other hand, has that awesome helmet, the force, and of course, cookies.
And he goets to spend some up-close-and-personal time with Han Solo...:smitten:

If that sways you, then yes. Darth Vader gets to spend lots of quality time with Han Solo...
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: Delling on February 02, 2011, 07:22:18 AM
Oooooooooh!  Touche, my friend.  Touche.  So what is Voldemort's dark side offering me, hmmmmmm?
Nothin. Except for dudes with creepy voices and one odd fetish for snakes. Darth Vader, on the other hand, has that awesome helmet, the force, and of course, cookies.
And he goets to spend some up-close-and-personal time with Han Solo...:smitten:

If that sways you, then yes. Darth Vader gets to spend lots of quality time with Han Solo...
Feu... that doesn't count: Han was encased in carbonite. ::)
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: dark-daventry on February 02, 2011, 12:16:09 PM
Oooooooooh!  Touche, my friend.  Touche.  So what is Voldemort's dark side offering me, hmmmmmm?
Nothin. Except for dudes with creepy voices and one odd fetish for snakes. Darth Vader, on the other hand, has that awesome helmet, the force, and of course, cookies.
And he goets to spend some up-close-and-personal time with Han Solo...:smitten:

If that sways you, then yes. Darth Vader gets to spend lots of quality time with Han Solo...
Feu... that doesn't count: Han was encased in carbonite. ::)

At one point, yes. But we haven't established what point in time we're even talking about here. For all we know, this supposed duel between Voldemort and Vader happened before Han was encased in said carbonite...
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: Haids1987 on February 02, 2011, 12:21:43 PM
Hmmm.  I don't know if it happened beforehand, because that would mean that Vader lived to encase him...
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: KatieHal on February 02, 2011, 01:32:15 PM
I think we should say the fight happens when both villains are at the peak of their powers--storylines otherwise should not affect the death match.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: dark-daventry on February 02, 2011, 02:14:39 PM
I think we should say the fight happens when both villains are at the peak of their powers--storylines otherwise should not affect the death match.

Agreed. That is the true test of someone's powers.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: Haids1987 on February 02, 2011, 05:40:13 PM
I think we should say the fight happens when both villains are at the peak of their powers--storylines otherwise should not affect the death match.
So this begs the earlier asked question: Horocruxes or not?  :-\
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: Delling on June 21, 2011, 07:13:11 AM
*rereads thread while model runs on computer*

*realizes that while he commented from the sidelines, he never actually weighed in*

Well, firstly, I'd like to say that this is a much more reasonable question than the "Gandalf v. Dumbledore" or "Gandalf/Sauron/Saruman v. Voldemort" type questions: the magic-users of Tolkien's world if not elves were generally incarnate nature spirits, cf. Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White--they didn't so much die as go away and decide whether or not they wanted to come back/be sent back. (Sauron and Saruman had both fallen... there were no dark Valar to reincarnate them (even if that were how it works) b/c... Morgoth and that whole Silmarillion thing...). Here both characters are mortal and their essential types under all their trappings of evil and power are the same.

Also, one last thing: Voldemort needs his wand to use magic, but Vader doesn't need his lightsaber to use the Force; it's just handy to have. So if the fight ever got to the stage where they were disarming each other, Vader would have a considerable advantage, since if he could snatch Voldy's wand out of his hand with the force, Voldy would be pretty much defenceless.
This. This has always struck me as a somewhat silly limitation of wizards in J.K.'s universe (bear in mind: I'm more a DnD/Tolkien-type). IIRC, Rowling has come out and said that wands are not an absolute necessity for magic, but that they are a considerable aid in focusing the energies involved, etc. Still, while Voldy flew unaided, he didn't to my knowledge ever demonstrate the ability to use magic without a wand. (Were I a magically gifted person in that universe, that however would have been one of my long-term goals in the study of magic as it clearly would have presented an uncommon advantage, and it seems odd to me that none of the more senior wizards had at least tried to do this.)

I think we should say the fight happens when both villains are at the peak of their powers--storylines otherwise should not affect the death match.
So this begs the earlier asked question: Horocruxes or not?  :-\
Without the horcruxes littering the battlefield around them for Vader to figure out and destroy, their existence gives Voldemort a near instant win. As it is "to the death" not "to a death", Voldemort can repeatedly die and return to attack Vader again. If Vader doesn't know how, he would probably eventually lose or force a stalemate by imprisoning Voldemort in a manner such that he didn't die and could not gain access to magical materials. If Vader sought out an answer, then it seems we get Vader hunting down the horcruxes. (This all assumes Vader can kill Voldemort repeatedly; see below.) So, I have to say Not. Height of Voldemort's power without having made horcruxes. (Do horcruxes also contain a portion of Voldemort's power (making them even more like Sauron + One Ring)?... (though that's doubtful because we would have expected Voldemort to keep them near him then)

Vader's mastery of the Force is such that he wields telekinesis at will (without the mental struggles displayed by Luke). Voldemort's powers are not at will but require an utterance, etc. It seems then that Vader would easily disarm Voldemort and probably shortly thereafter realize that Voldemort is little more than human when he doesn't have magical means at hand. (This relies somewhat on Vader's comprehension of what Voldemort is doing.)

If Vader doesn't understand what is going on and if Voldemort opens with the killing curse, Voldemort could well win.

Vader: disarm, kill->force telekinesis
Voldemort: killing curse; requires Vader to not recognize the attack for what it is (perhaps he finds it laughable, etc.)->magic, duh

Giving Vader the benefit of the doubt in terms of perceiving the threat to be a threat, Vader's ability to exert physical forces on others to their disarmament, physical harm, and death (probably in that order too in this case) AT WILL and WITHOUT NEED OF EXTERNAL AID nicely hands him the victory.


EDIT/UPDATE: Apparently, according to the HP wiki, wandless magic is a lot more prevalent in the film adaptations while in the books magic is almost exclusively performed with wands (except for under-age magic which is done without great focus or control as a sort of magical self-defense or tantrum). I should further point out that most of my knowledge of the HP-universe is secondhand or from the films. :P Still, I already voted and I can't change that now though I'm not sure whether I would or not.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: LadyTerra on June 21, 2011, 06:45:43 PM
Remember another power Vader has with the force: he can sense changes to the natural order.  If this applies to magic as well, then Vader would have no problem finding the Horcruxes.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: KatieHal on June 21, 2011, 09:25:11 PM
Hmm....well, another facet to add then: do the fighters have knowledge of what their opponents are capable of beforehand? Are we running this thing like a haphazard pit fight where you have no idea who's coming at you next from the crowd, or a UFC championship where you prepare ahead of time, study your opponent and he studies you? The latter would change things quite a bit.

I have to argue against Vader being able to locate the horcruxes no problem. Dude didn't even know his kids were alive for a good long time and had no idea at all about Leia being his daughter until he (more or less) read Luke's mind. And while hidden, those two were not exactly impossible to find if he'd really been trying.
Title: Re: A fight to the death!
Post by: Delling on June 22, 2011, 04:02:32 AM
Remember another power Vader has with the force: he can sense changes to the natural order.  If this applies to magic as well, then Vader would have no problem finding the Horcruxes.

Hmm... at most, he'd probably be able to tell there was something "unnatural" about Voldemort (if magical effects counted as something unnatural): I'd like to remind everyone at this juncture that Force based ESP is utter crap. Obi-Wan could sense the destruction of a planet lightyears away while the entire Jedi counsel could not detect that Palpatine was a Sith or at least had force abilities while he was at times no more than a few feet from Yoda himself. ::) Yeah, sure...