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Tropes vs Women in Video Games

Started by Bludshot, December 06, 2012, 11:48:46 PM

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Lambonius

Cray, it's pretty clear that you and stika are talking about two fairly different things.  The guy already said he wasn't from America, and had never been here (correct me if I'm wrong about that.)  The truth is that American government and society has been a bit slower to evolve socially, at least since World War II.  Women hold prominent positions of power all over the Western world, and have for a long time.

Our society, even in America is so far from a true patriarchy that using the term is frankly laughable.  Sure, there's social injustice and gender inequality, but you're throwing around the term way too freely here.  Not to mention that you're pretty much the only one posting in this thread who is getting at all heated about things.

Take some Midol, dude.   ;D

stika

Quote from: Lambonius on December 10, 2012, 03:32:52 PM
Cray, it's pretty clear that you and stika are talking about two fairly different things.  The guy already said he wasn't from America, and had never been here (correct me if I'm wrong about that.)  The truth is that American government and society has been a bit slower to evolve socially, at least since World War II.  Women hold prominent positions of power all over the Western world, and have for a long time.

Our society, even in America is so far from a true patriarchy that using the term is frankly laughable.  Sure, there's social injustice and gender inequality, but you're throwing around the term way too freely here.  Not to mention that you're pretty much the only one posting in this thread who is getting at all heated about things.

Take some Midol, dude.   ;D
Yeah, I've never been in the US, though I'd love to visit it someday.

And yes, that's my point, I know there are still some glaring gender differences, but we don't live in a Patriarchy, I'm not going to lie and say that the power is equally divided, but women do hold positions of power in both the Western World and the US.

I mean... I could be wrong, but like I said, wasn't Hillary Clinton a serious candidate for office? And Considering the Republican candidate in 2008 came right off the heel of President W. Bush, a very unpopular president to say the least, I'd say chances are she would have won, this isn't what I would have expected from a patriarchy.

And yes, I know this last paragraph had a lot of assumptions :P

Lambonius

Quote from: Cez on December 10, 2012, 03:31:29 PM
Twilight is marketed at girls because...

You WOULD bring up Twilight, Cez.   :suffer:

(Posted on: December 10, 2012, 06:38:45 PM)


Quote from: stika on December 10, 2012, 03:37:09 PM
I mean... I could be wrong, but like I said, wasn't Hillary Clinton a serious candidate for office?

Yes, and she's already projected to be the favorite in the next presidential election, provided she runs.

Deloria

Quote from: Lambonius on December 10, 2012, 03:32:52 PM
Our society, even in America is so far from a true patriarchy that using the term is frankly laughable.  Sure, there's social injustice and gender inequality, but you're throwing around the term way too freely here.  Not to mention that you're pretty much the only one posting in this thread who is getting at all heated about things.
Are you seriously unfamiliar with the absolutely insane patriarchal Christian sects America has? :P Have you never heard of Quiverful? :P Because patriarchy does exist in America in that form and it is shameful and it is disgusting. And it is probably a result of these ultraconservative fundamentalists (who don't think anything women say can be worthwhile because, hey, there's a chance they're being seduced by Satan and that he's talking through them right now) that women are less powerful in politics in America.  But I also think it's a gross exaggeration to claim that women have no power in society.
 
Holy Roman Empress
Queen of *all* Albion
Précieuse and salonnière! :D
"In cases of doubt about language, it is ordinarily best to consult women."-Vaugelas
Space! :D Extraterrestrium! :D Espace! :D

KatieHal

Patriarchy may be a strong word for where the US is now. But certainly there are still far more men in power here than women.

And yes, Hilary was a significant contender in 2008, but is one of a VERY small group to get to that position. She's another exception, not the norm. The same goes for other female world leaders. And while it's great to see them coming up in the world, there are still places where women are treated horribly for speaking back to a male, any male, much less encouraged or allowed to run for public office.

That digresses from the particular subjects we've been discussing, granted. But my point is that just because there are exceptions, it doesn't negate that these things exist--tropes, stereotypes, prejudices, etc.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Lambonius

Quote from: Deloria on December 10, 2012, 03:43:37 PM

Are you seriously unfamiliar with the absolutely insane patriarchal Christian sects America has? :P Have you never heard of Quiverful? :P Because patriarchy does exist in America in that form and it is shameful and it is disgusting. And it is probably a result of these ultraconservative fundamentalists (who don't think anything women say can be worthwhile because, hey, there's a chance they're being seduced by Satan and that he's talking through them right now) that women are less powerful in politics in America.  But I also think it's a gross exaggeration to claim that women have no power in society.

Well, honestly, I haven't heard of Quiverful, but I know what you're talking about.  Nobody said there weren't sexists in our society, just that it's an exaggeration to say that Western society as a whole is a patriarchy.  And again, America is just one part of Western society.  

Cez

Quote from: Lambonius on December 10, 2012, 03:42:18 PM
Quote from: Cez on December 10, 2012, 03:31:29 PM
Twilight is marketed at girls because...

You WOULD bring up Twilight, Cez.   :suffer:

Stop putting labels on me!!

:P


Cesar Bittar
CEO
Phoenix Online
cesar.bittar@postudios.com

Deloria

As for advertising, advertising caters to the specific (often sexual) fantasies of both males and females. In both cases, people are being objectified and in both cases, they are being rewarded with their ideal relationship arrangement within the advertisements. Now, this might seem more offensive to women, but in ads (let's say perfume) targeted at females, the female upon whom the ad centers has every one of her whims catered to and is being treated like a princess by the inevitably far too handsome male. In male body product ads, the male in question is usually surrounded by a harem of women, with the explicit message being: Buy this and you can have all teh group sex!!!!

Both advertisements are objectifying the opposite sex. Both advertisements are catering to very specific fantasies that are ultimately very self-centered. The male one is necessarily considered more offensive, because there the implication is that the females can only ever hope to be one of very many, but to say it's a different wish-fulfillment fantasy would be very wrong.

Quote from: Lambonius on December 10, 2012, 03:46:53 PM
Quote from: Deloria on December 10, 2012, 03:43:37 PM

Are you seriously unfamiliar with the absolutely insane patriarchal Christian sects America has? :P Have you never heard of Quiverful? :P Because patriarchy does exist in America in that form and it is shameful and it is disgusting. And it is probably a result of these ultraconservative fundamentalists (who don't think anything women say can be worthwhile because, hey, there's a chance they're being seduced by Satan and that he's talking through them right now) that women are less powerful in politics in America.  But I also think it's a gross exaggeration to claim that women have no power in society.

Well, honestly, I haven't heard of Quiverful, but I know what you're talking about.  Nobody said there weren't sexists in our society, just that it's an exaggeration to say that Western society as a whole is a patriarchy.  And again, America is just one part of Western society. 
I find it astonishing that legitimate issues, such as wage differences, have yet to be addressed.
 
Holy Roman Empress
Queen of *all* Albion
Précieuse and salonnière! :D
"In cases of doubt about language, it is ordinarily best to consult women."-Vaugelas
Space! :D Extraterrestrium! :D Espace! :D

stika

I think wage issues is something we can all agree that needs to be fixed. I don't think there would be any arguments there

Quote from: KatieHal on December 10, 2012, 03:46:44 PM
Patriarchy may be a strong word for where the US is now. But certainly there are still far more men in power here than women.

And yes, Hilary was a significant contender in 2008, but is one of a VERY small group to get to that position. She's another exception, not the norm. The same goes for other female world leaders. And while it's great to see them coming up in the world, there are still places where women are treated horribly for speaking back to a male, any male, much less encouraged or allowed to run for public office.

That digresses from the particular subjects we've been discussing, granted. But my point is that just because there are exceptions, it doesn't negate that these things exist--tropes, stereotypes, prejudices, etc.

I agree that men still have most of the power, I just think that Patriarchy is not the correct term and that mis-using it is not the way to go.

KatieHal

Stika: re: patriarchy: fair enough. It really is too strong a word for the US as a whole.

Also--man, I HATE the Axe body spray commercials. So much.

I also find the recent Chanel No. 5--a woman's perfume--commercials which feature ONLY Brad Pitt to be very odd.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

stika

Not familiar with Chanel comercials

as for Axe commercials, they stopped being funny or interesting to me after I was done with puberty

Neonivek

Quote from: stika on December 10, 2012, 04:04:07 PM
Not familiar with Chanel comercials

as for Axe commercials, they stopped being funny or interesting to me after I was done with puberty

That is because they were specifically targeted towards "Losers".

No joke.

Now I am not saying you are a loser, but the very same traits that make something attractive to a loser makes it attractive to someone in the midst of puberty (in fact it was the reason why they had to change their commercials, because it started to give Axe a bad reputation)

Cez

The good news is that our society always tend to "fix" itself and it does change and adapts to changes.

50 years ago, african americans weren't really part of the society in the US. 30 years ago, it might have been harder for Hilary to have gone as far as she went. Some decades ago, it was illegal to be gay in some states.

So things will change and humans become more tolerant to those that want their voice heard. It's just not going to change overnight.

and that's the feel good post of this thread. Let's all hug now. lol


Cesar Bittar
CEO
Phoenix Online
cesar.bittar@postudios.com

stika

Quote from: Neonivek on December 10, 2012, 04:05:09 PM
Quote from: stika on December 10, 2012, 04:04:07 PM
Not familiar with Chanel comercials

as for Axe commercials, they stopped being funny or interesting to me after I was done with puberty

That is because they were specifically targeted towards "Losers".

No joke.

Now I am not saying you are a loser, but the very same traits that make something attractive to a loser makes it attractive to someone in the midst of puberty (in fact it was the reason why they had to change their commercials, because it started to give Axe a bad reputation)
That actually explains a lot  :rofl:

Blackthorne

Yeah, there are "sects" like the Quiverfull Movement (think of the Duggar's, Lamb - 19 Kids and Counting.... THEY are part of the Quiverfull movement.) and other radical Christian Groups, but these are fringe groups.  You're always going to have fringe nutballs in society. 

Now something serious, like wage equality and professional equality in the workplace - yeah, these are real issues.  Some jobs CAN be a real boys club.  There's strides being made, and though it's not perfect - it's a hell of a lot better than it was just 100 years ago.  Women haven't even had the right to VOTE in America for 100 years yet!  Time, eventually, will level the playing field - and sure, it's an uphill battle - but Rome wasn't built in a day.


Bt
"You've got to keep one eye looking over your shoulder
you know it's going to get harder and harder as you
get older - but in the end you'll pack up, fly down south, hide your head in the sand.  Just another sad old man, all alone and dying of cancer." - Dogs, Pink Floyd.

Neonivek

QuoteTime, eventually, will level the playing field

No, no it really will not.

there are jobs women naturally tend to do worse at (I am not going to fill in which) and a lot of buisnesses justify lower pay for women due to enforced maternity leave.

At the same time there are jobs that only women and that only men are hired for.

Time isn't going to level any playing field.

Deloria

Don't you see that that's kind of unfair to women who don't want and never intend to have children? :P
 
Holy Roman Empress
Queen of *all* Albion
Précieuse and salonnière! :D
"In cases of doubt about language, it is ordinarily best to consult women."-Vaugelas
Space! :D Extraterrestrium! :D Espace! :D

Neonivek

#137
Quote from: Deloria on December 10, 2012, 04:49:14 PM
Don't you see that that's kind of unfair to women who don't want and never intend to have children? :P

It is also unfair to buisnesses who have to pay full price for a worker who does less then a full load of work, or to not replace an important employee who is going to leave for several months.

It is why as a society we have to state what our priorities are. Since it is a situation that is unfair to both parties.

Say

Quote from: Blackthorne on December 10, 2012, 04:21:28 PM

Now something serious, like wage equality and professional equality in the workplace - yeah, these are real issues.  Some jobs CAN be a real boys club.  There's strides being made, and though it's not perfect - it's a hell of a lot better than it was just 100 years ago.  Women haven't even had the right to VOTE in America for 100 years yet!  Time, eventually, will level the playing field - and sure, it's an uphill battle - but Rome wasn't built in a day.


Those are truly aggravating.

I remember my first year in my last job I had these long exhausting arguements with the directive board regarding profiling of some employees, as much as I understand some cultural differences I think it's extremely unfair we'd segregate people just based on gender preferences. Like for example some admin jobs have got a lot of interaction with public and they forced me to hire all females, when sometimes even some of the male interns had much better knowledge for the tasks at hand. But they always argued with me: "It's corporate image".

It went on and on with a lot of different stereotypes and archaic ideas, like guys can't teach kids groups, they prefered female tutors (and this one didn't even come from the company, it'd come from the parents which is even more disturbing). Needless to say, I found out the true meaning of "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission" while doing this job. Once they had about a few months into the company with solid results proving they are a good asset regardless of their hairdo, gender, position and skin color was when they would embrace them openly and go like: "Why do you always have to stir up things?", followed by a nice scolding and a lecture about corporate culture and all that drama.

This is an international company that has been operating all over South America, USA and Europe for over 35 years.

But ironically, while some jobs are apparently just given to women - just because they may "provide a much more attractive corporate image", they are hired for that job and they are never considered for anything else ever. The only other females that were around were shareholder's wives - and we're talking about a total of 2, that's about it. Everyone else was male, with this super epic career in the company: starting out as a salesman and now is the VP, in a total of 8 years. Now, ask these secretaries or long time assistants that everyone knows how long have they been at their same position? 10 years, 8 years.

It's a long way to go.


Say Mistage
Phoenix Online Studios

#IndieSupport <3

Neonivek

#139
I've even watched a series that was about the idea that women are better caregivers then men (the main protagonist was male who disguised himself as female to "prove" the school wrong).

It was a very interesting set up until it devolved into a huge mess. Lets just say that the original intent of the show DEFINATELY wasn't proven. In fact with an objective eye you could even argue that the idea that women are better caregivers then men is held up.

In fact you don't even discover why the school only hires women until way at the end. It is basically "Man hating". I am sure the anime is popular but it is just terrible to me when I take a really good look at it.