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Tropes vs Women in Video Games

Started by Bludshot, December 06, 2012, 11:48:46 PM

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Balinaeri

That's a great story.

And I love this quote:

QuoteI didn't set out to push a feminist agenda, or try to make a statement. I just wanted to keep that little grin lit up on my daughter's face every time we sit down to play games together.

And this as well:

QuoteHaving kids is incredible. And having a daughter is something special. I get the opportunity to see the world through her eyes. And if this experience has taught me anything, it's that the world could be just a bit more accommodating. And that if something as innocuous as having Mario be saved by Pauline brings out the crazy, maybe we aren't as mature in our view of gender roles as we should be.
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

Bludshot

Aww that's cute, naturally there is a serious business comment war on the article. :P
Deep Thoughts with Connor Mac Lyrr
"Alack! The heads do not die!"

Neonivek

#222
QuoteGabriel Knight has some of the Damsel in Distress bits, but in the later episodes, Grace ends up rescuing him just as often as he rescues her.

Not really. I mean you do have to save Grace in the first game but it was a danger you put her into and it included another male character. Making it less "She is a damsel" and more that they kidnapped your two best friends.

Though the entire second game was Grace saving Gabriel and the third I never played.

Oddly enough I actually prefer Gabriel Knight 2 Grace to Gabriel Knight 1 Grace. I don't know why because the first games Grace should be more appealing (Afterall she is sarcastic and calls you out on your stupidity)... but the one in the second has... Grace I guess is the best way I can describe it. She is probably one of the few "Women" in videogames and by that I mean a woman who acts like you would expect a woman in her mid-30s to act.

Which in a world where games go out of their way to make sure they don't have women past the age of 20, that is rather huge.

I really hope she brings up tekken and how the series absolutely refuses to have any middle-aged women.

Quotethat if something as innocuous as having Mario be saved by Pauline brings out the crazy, maybe we aren’t as mature in our view of gender roles as we should be

I don't know, if I was playing "Pauline" where I play Pauline and my goal was to save Mario. Having him save me would be a twist... It being outright weird if Mario in this game was some sort of fat out of shape plumber.

Also Pauline? We are going back to the plotless days of videogames?

stika

To anyone reading this thread I don't think you'll be surprised that I'm not a fan of Anita's videos, though that's not to say I'm against feminism or anything.

So anyway, it was with a sense of dread that I watched this video thinking I'd probably find something in the video that would get me to roll my eyes during the rest of the video like I did with the "Lego for Girls" video.

Now that I've watched Part 1 of the Damsel in distress trope all I have to say is... huh... this is what all the fuss was about?

I mean the video isn't bad, but it's not good either and there's really nothing to agree or disagree on it, it's just... honestly, it's just kinda there, most of the video was just naming games in which a princess has to be saved and how she didn't like the trope.

Personally I don't see anything inherently the wrong with the trope though I got the feeling that neither does she so... yeah, all of that kickstarter funding all of that blind internet hate all of those extremely dangerous and juvenile threats... for this? Oh internet, you are the master of blowing things out of proportion.

darthkiwi

stika: to a certain extent I agree. I did enjoy the video and it did make some good points - I'm now much more aware of Damsel plots and kind of surprised how prevalent they were.

But this is kind of an obvious topic. Yes, it's a good thing people are discussing it, but for me it's boring, because yes, of course there are lots of Damsel plots, how could anyone have missed it? :S

Still, the fact there are people on the internet who threatened to do extremely nasty, misgynistic things to her just for talking about this stuff justifies what she's doing, to me.
Prince of the Aquitaine. Duke of York.

Knight errant and consort to Her Grace the Empress Deloria of the Holy Roman Empire, Queene of all Albion and Princess Palatine.

stika

The problem here was 4chan, it got wind of her project and decided to mess with it.

And 4 chan is... well it's basically where all the racists, sexists, jerks and other adjectives and names I'm now allowed to use go

KatieHal

It is an obvious trope, but that's also kind of why it's a good place to start for a whole series of examinations of such things. If she started with something less known, out there, kind of esoteric, it would bring in some viewers, sure, but probably not as many new ones.

As said, I'm looking forward to Part 2 with more modern games and also games that flip the trope, hopefully there'll be more insight, etc, in that video.

And yes, either way, I support what she's doing. On a number of levels, but even if it was only because so many people decided to be such asshats about it in the first place. What that dad said about his swapping Pauline and Mario is very true: "And that if something as innocuous as having Mario be saved by Pauline brings out the crazy, maybe we aren't as mature in our view of gender roles as we should be." (Good quote!)

Also, that story, aww :)

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Blackthorne

Hah, yeah - personally, I thought Pauline saving Mario was delightful! 



Bt
"You've got to keep one eye looking over your shoulder
you know it's going to get harder and harder as you
get older - but in the end you'll pack up, fly down south, hide your head in the sand.  Just another sad old man, all alone and dying of cancer." - Dogs, Pink Floyd.

Neonivek

Honestly what would have made the Damsel discussion much better would have been if she also compared male and female damsels.

For example male damsels have a much higher expectation to help the protagonist and resist their bondings.

KatieHal

It sounds like those sorts of things will be covered in Part 2. Though she did compare when the (male) protags are captured & imprisoned vs. when the (female) damsels are--typically the former gets to figure out how to escape while the latter is helpless until you show up to save the day.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Lambonius

I can't believe people paid real money for this.  To say nothing of the subject matter, this is a youtube video.  Thousands of people make these for free every day, some of which are just as high quality as this.

darthkiwi

Quote from: Lambonius on March 12, 2013, 12:01:52 PM
I can't believe people paid real money for this.  To say nothing of the subject matter, this is a youtube video.  Thousands of people make these for free every day, some of which are just as high quality as this.

Many of them have channels which consistently turn out videos, which I guess she can't do because there's only so much you can say about one fairly specific topic. Making feminist videos about tropes in videogames will get you a limited number of topics, whereas vlog channels will always have something to talk about.

Also, youtube *does* pay people with high subscriber numbers. So those high-quality videos? Totally paid for, just by someone else. All she did was shift the paying bit to the front of the process to minimise risk.
Prince of the Aquitaine. Duke of York.

Knight errant and consort to Her Grace the Empress Deloria of the Holy Roman Empire, Queene of all Albion and Princess Palatine.

Lambonius

Quote from: darthkiwi on March 12, 2013, 12:36:13 PM
Also, youtube *does* pay people with high subscriber numbers. So those high-quality videos? Totally paid for, just by someone else. All she did was shift the paying bit to the front of the process to minimise risk.

Fair enough.  Still though, the idea of people paying a fairly insane amount of money to someone for doing something that they would have done anyway for free--kinda silly, if you ask me. 

And yes, I am well aware of the irony here.   8)

Balinaeri

Quote from: Lambonius on March 12, 2013, 12:01:52 PM
I can't believe people paid real money for this.  To say nothing of the subject matter, this is a youtube video.  Thousands of people make these for free every day, some of which are just as high quality as this.

Meh. And I can't believe people pay real money to see a movie with Will Ferrell in it. Or to own a Fiat. Or that anyone actually bought Myst, or The 7th Guest. To each his/her own. The video was very well researched, and she's obviously a highly educated woman.

While there was little in Part 1 that was new information to me, it was, as others have said, merely the introductory episode in this series. I'm looking forward to seeing what she has to say in parts 2 & 3.

I was impressed with her presentation. I've seen many similar things that were nothing more than emotional diatribes. She managed to present the information and her opinion without sermonizing or lecturing, and I respect that.

I don't know...on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give the first part probably a 7. If future parts are just more of the same, I'll likely lower the score for them, but I could raise the score as well, if they are informative.
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

Neonivek

QuoteOr that anyone actually bought Myst, or The 7th Guest

You had to exist in the times Balinaeri. PC games were a different place back then and frankly 7th guest freekishly stands out as one of the better MORE THEN ONE puzzle games even today.

Which is very sad.

Balinaeri

Quote from: Neonivek on March 12, 2013, 01:25:16 PM
QuoteOr that anyone actually bought Myst, or The 7th Guest

You had to exist in the times Balinaeri. PC games were a different place back then and frankly 7th guest freekishly stands out as one of the better MORE THEN ONE puzzle games even today.

Which is very sad.

I remember when 7th Guest came out. It was awful then, and it's awful now.
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

Lambonius

#236
On another note, I can't decide whether I'm amused or impressed at the skillfulness with which she has composed her outfit.  The flannel shirt says "Anything a man can do, I can do," but the pink color reasserts its femininity (slightly.)  The earrings, makeup, and carefully plucked eyebrows suggest that she cares about her appearance enough to conform to current standards of beauty, while at the same time, because of their combination with buttoned up flannel shirt, say "I'm well aware of the fact that I'm putting myself under the scrutiny of the male gaze, so here's what I am and am not allowing you to appreciate about my appearance."

Clever girl. 

*prepares for velociraptor attack*

Bludshot

Quote from: Lambonius on March 12, 2013, 12:01:52 PM
I can't believe people paid real money for this.  To say nothing of the subject matter, this is a youtube video.  Thousands of people make these for free every day, some of which are just as high quality as this.

Clearly there was a demand for it.
Deep Thoughts with Connor Mac Lyrr
"Alack! The heads do not die!"

Lambonius

Quote from: Bludshot on March 12, 2013, 02:04:26 PM
Quote from: Lambonius on March 12, 2013, 12:01:52 PM
I can't believe people paid real money for this.  To say nothing of the subject matter, this is a youtube video.  Thousands of people make these for free every day, some of which are just as high quality as this.

Clearly there was a demand for it.

Indeed.  I guess I'm just wondering what aspects of production were aided by the addition of all that cash.  I haven't watched her other videos--is this one noticeably different or better in some way?

Maybe she bought new earrings and a new flannel?

Lambonius

Okay, I've perused a few others.  The camera quality seems to have improved, and as far as I can see, the graphic design is all new.  So that's definitely something.  I'll be fair.  :)