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Tropes vs Women in Video Games

Started by Bludshot, December 06, 2012, 11:48:46 PM

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Bludshot

#240
She got more money that she needed, that is for sure, but that is largely the result of people wanting to fight against the abuse that was thrown at her by the less savory parts of the internet.  Only one video is out though, and it is 23 minutes long and still only part 1 of covering one trope out of 5 total (I think). 

Plus since I didn't donate I get all this for free.  ;D
Deep Thoughts with Connor Mac Lyrr
"Alack! The heads do not die!"

stika

now that is one thing I really like about this show is how it completely backfired on those people ;D

KatieHal

Other things the money that came in did was pay for games, systems, research, enabling her to work fulltime, pay a producer to work fulltime, and I believe an additional writer part-time, expand on the number of planned episodes, and develop a curriculum to go along with it for educational use (also, I believe to be made available for free).

There are some details of it on her site somewhere.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

snabbott

Quote from: stika on March 12, 2013, 03:57:49 PM
now that is one thing I really like about this show is how it completely backfired on those people ;D
Definitely some poetic justice there. :) All the abuse just demonstrated how much of a problem there is. :yes: It's too soon to know what impact her work will have, but hopefully it at least raises awareness of the need. Maybe it will inspire some people.

Steve Abbott | Beta Tester | The Silver Lining

stika

The creator of the Gears of War series shares his thoughts on Anita Sarkeesian

I thought this was a very interesting read, not so much for what he said, but from the source it comes from, the creator of one of the biggest "guy" games, rushes in defense of Anita

KatieHal

That is an excellent blog post. I'm gonna go RT that!

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

stika

#246


with that said in the same thread I saw this, I also saw two videos from someone deconstructing Anita Sarkeesian and though his videos are obviously trying to push an Agenda (but then again, so is Anita) and in some cases he crosses the line into poor taste, but with that said he does raise some valid points, especially in part 2


I'm also saddened that despite Cliffy B's kind words, Anita will at one point or another talk about the Gears of War series, you can quote me on that

KatieHal

What exactly does he say her "Agenda" is?

And it's fair for her to examine this guy's creations, despite his words. He's not the only person who made those games, and even if he were, what he thinks and what his game presents aren't necessarily going to be the same thing. I love breaking cliches and tropes, but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of them played straight in Cognition or TSL, after all.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

stika

#248
Mostly that she is a conservative feminist that believes art by itself has no inherent value and instead is used as tool to "teach" people and as a result Kanye West's song "Monster" for example is only "tricking" people into thinking it's okay to a misogynist instead of accepting the song for what it is, an art form (one that widely regarded as a great song by both critics and the general rap community).

Moreover that she never addresses other forms of feminism, namely the sex positive feminism, or that she will delete videos, comments, or the even the "like" button if a video is not popular, if a comment is not to her liking or if quite simply, people don't like the video.

Which personally, i agree with all of that. With that said, as stated before, the video itself is pushing an agenda to discredit Anita and a lot of what was said needs to be taken with quite a bit of salt, but in this regard, I believe the video was spot on

KatieHal

I'm pretty sure the reason her videos have comments & ratings disabled is due to the extreme cyber bullying that has been levied against her.

Nothing I've seen from her comments on the value of art as art--but that's also not the point behind anything she's doing. Her goal is pretty specifically to examine these media for what they represent in terms of what they represent to the culture as a whole in regards to women. So, no, I wouldn't watch or read any of her work for an account of what the 'art' of a particular piece of media is. I'd go elsewhere for that.

In any case, I still agree ultimately with Clifford/Cliffy B's (whatever name he generally goes by) point: there is no reason she can't or shouldn't be able to do this work, research, and makes these videos. One's enjoyment or agreement to it notwithstanding, because that's personal taste.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

stika

#250
If that's the case then howcome her kickstarter video didn't have the ratings and comments disabled at first? Or at least, have them pending approval like her feminist frequency video do? Even if it was just to prevent cyber-bullying it does open the question to what gets approved and what doesn't

Was it wrong of the internet to bully Anita? Undoubtedly so, but I firmly believe she left that video unmodded on purpose which in itself allowed comments that would not normally be accepted into her Feminist Frequency videos be posted on her kickstarter video. After all, let's not forget that Anita herself went to 4chan, posted a link to her video there and asked for a "rational discussion" of all things, a rational discussion on 4chan? Come on now...

As for her views on art, that's kind of the issue, isn't it? If Venus di Milo were created today and if instead of a sculpture it were a movie or a song, what would her reaction be? Given her views on pornography (a video which has sense been removed by the way) she would have likely have made a video criticizing it and in the case o Kanye West's song, she missed the point of the song entirely, she claimed the song was fetishizing dead women, when in fact, the song was a stab at the music industry, criticizing said industry for being stale, a sort of still life if you will

KatieHal

I would imagine because the cyber bullying started *after* her Kickstarter launched, so before there wasn't a need to do so?

I don't see the problem in asking for a rational discussion anywhere. You may be less likely to get in some places than others, but asking for one, really? I fail to see the problem with that.

And to say "if the Venus di Milo were a movie or song instead of a sculpture"--that's a hypothetical you can't create a reasonable discussion around. That's changing the medium into something completely different. It's not like saying, if it were a drawing, that would at least be a similar medium; a movie or song is utterly different from a sculpture.

And as I don't know the Kanye West song, I can't really comment to that. But sure, it's possible she missed the point--that happens. Honestly, beyond the infamous Music Awards interruption & knowing up a Kardashian, I don't really know anything about Kanye West, much less his work.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

stika

Quote from: KatieHal on March 13, 2013, 08:25:18 AM
I would imagine because the cyber bullying started *after* her Kickstarter launched, so before there wasn't a need to do so?
But she's been making Feminist Frequency videos long before her kickstarter and those videos, from what I understand, always required every comment to be approved by the moderator before being posted.

Of course one could argue that this kickstarter was a personal project and as such she didn't feel the need to moderate the comments on said video, but it is still a stark contrast.


Quote from: KatieHal on March 13, 2013, 08:25:18 AMI don't see the problem in asking for a rational discussion anywhere. You may be less likely to get in some places than others, but asking for one, really? I fail to see the problem with that.

I suppose we'll have to disagree in this regard, but it's nothing too major I suppose

Quote from: KatieHal on March 13, 2013, 08:25:18 AMAnd to say "if the Venus di Milo were a movie or song instead of a sculpture"--that's a hypothetical you can't create a reasonable discussion around. That's changing the medium into something completely different. It's not like saying, if it were a drawing, that would at least be a similar medium; a movie or song is utterly different from a sculpture.
Fair enough, I probably didn't think that part of my argument all the way through  :P

Quote from: KatieHal on March 13, 2013, 08:25:18 AMAnd as I don't know the Kanye West song, I can't really comment to that. But sure, it's possible she missed the point--that happens. Honestly, beyond the infamous Music Awards interruption & knowing up a Kardashian, I don't really know anything about Kanye West, much less his work.
I believe this is the problem when rating 'art' even more so if you're not familiar with that particular art form, while I understand that she's looking at if from a conservative feminist perspective, I believe she should stick to the mediums she's more familiarized with in order to prevent this, after all, people will most often remember the bad, not the good.

Luckily, the overall public's perception of a videogame as a art form is... arguable at best, so that's not likely to occur in this new spin-off, unless of course she tries to tackle on "artistic games" in which case this may or may not happen again, hopefully it won't

Delling

#253
Quote from: stika on March 13, 2013, 08:00:59 AM
... a conservative feminist...
bwahahahahahahahaha... X'D

Oh, man... trust me when I say that for the US, Anita doesn't come anywhere CLOSE to what is usually regarded as "conservative"... In many circles in the States, "conservative" and "feminist" are essentially antithetical: hell, I bet she has the gall to wear PANTS (no, seriously, in the fundamentalist conservative high school my mother sent her children to, as a matter of moral rectitude, girls were required to wear skirts--to the extent that our English teacher once gave as an example of the term "deference", the story that when the pastor visits, she puts on a dress/skirt... in her own home, she changes out of comfortable clothing out of deference to a visiting man... and this was being touted as a GOOD thing. This isn't just restricted to my high school: other high schools in the same vein, Bob Jones University ::), and PCC have similar or even more extreme policies). In fact, one of the greatest victories of feminism (that it probably isn't even aware of) is actually the watered down and heavily diluted way in which it HAS actually managed to penetrate the Religious Right (it's really weird going to high school where the echoes of Christian Patriarchy (CP) and Feminism (don't alert the administration--they don't think it's there at all!) are actively duking it out ::)).

Also, "damsel in distress"? Conservatives (especially followers of CP) are all over that! It's like their raison d'etre. :P

Concerning the rest of this conversation: a woman stated an intention to develop a program discussing the portrayal of women in a particular medium... for this, she was threatened with murder and rape. There is no defense for that. That is subhuman behavior and we as a species would be better off without such individuals. <~~which I've been holding back and trying not to say for the whole run of this thread.

I had more (like point-by-point arguments), but I'm not going to bother. The former paragraph makes the point pretty damn clear as far as I'm concerned.
Noli me tangere! Nescio ubi fuisti!
Don't touch me! I don't know where you've been!

Marquess of Pembroke
Duke of Saxony in Her Majesty's Court
Knight of the Swan for Her Imperial Highness

...resistance was obviously useless against a family that could invent italics.

"Let the locative live."

http://my.ddo.com/referral/Delling87

stika

I believe now you're taking two words with entirely different meanings the word "conservative" doesn't have to necessarily apply to "Conservative US" or pastors, or religion.

Even within liberals you can have "conservative" liberals.

As for your example, I never claimed that our medium has gender equality nor did I try (or would try) to defend that

Balinaeri

Ok, I have finally watched a few more of her videos. I have to say I came away more impressed than I expected. In fact, I agree with everything she says in her video comparing The Hunger Games Movie and the book. In fact, I had mentioned many of the same things to friends/acquaintances previously.

She does a much better job presenting her case than I did, but I would hope that would be the case. She's a professional at doing this after all, and when I was doing it, I wasn't trying to present a case, merely participating in a conversation about the film.

I also thought she was dead-on in her video on The Smurfette Principle. Still, however, I have the same criticism that I do of her DnD tropes video. She tends to ignore exceptions or counter examples that show growth. She briefly mentions Captain Janeway in the Smurfette Principel, but ignores the Battlestar Galactica reboot where they went out of their way to incorporate more strong female characters, even changing the gender of two popular characters from the original series.

In short, I like the fact that she's pointing out these issues, but feel she should give kudos to producers/writers/directors that have overcome them and been successful.

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

Bludshot

#256
Quote from: stika on March 13, 2013, 07:07:57 AM
The creator of the Gears of War series shares his thoughts on Anita Sarkeesian

I thought this was a very interesting read, not so much for what he said, but from the source it comes from, the creator of one of the biggest "guy" games, rushes in defense of Anita

Yeah I saw that, and I believe he is being genuine, but I can't help but notice that the post came out after his sexist twitter debacle last week.

Oh and Balienaeri, she does do that from time to time, and I no the current series on videogames is going to explore good examples, in fact her next video will in part involve that.  I haven't seen all her videos but I know she has given praise to Buffy the Vampire Slayer in one of the videos I have watched.
Deep Thoughts with Connor Mac Lyrr
"Alack! The heads do not die!"

stika

I hadn't heard of that, what happened?

Bludshot

Like anything on twitter, it can quickly become a mess.  Basically he posted a dumb tweet, I think it was something to the effect of "PR girls are down for anything."

Some folks got mad and chaos ensued.  How malicious the tweet was is up to interpretation, but I personally was more annoyed with how he handled the situation, throwing out some pretty standard weak arguments and bashing the people who were upset with him.

In the scheme of thins it may be a "small" thing but it rubbed me the wrong way.  Especially when other game devs have proven they can be open to discussion on that sort of thing on twitter, a Gearbox dev recently didn't think a character in Borderlands 2 we wrote was racist, but he wanted to know why people felt that way.

http://kotaku.com/5981171/borderlands-2s-writer-says-hell-change-tiny-tina-if-she-conveys-racism-as-some-players-think-[update]
Deep Thoughts with Connor Mac Lyrr
"Alack! The heads do not die!"

stika

I just saw the video on that link. Personally I thought she was hilarious, but that's just me :P

as for that twitter thingy, it's a shame it happened, social media can be a dangerous palce