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Tropes vs Women in Video Games

Started by Bludshot, December 06, 2012, 11:48:46 PM

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Bludshot

I never liked the guy anyway, just to point out my own bias in this issue.  Glad he wrote that blog post though, it is good to see developers invested in these sort of things.
Deep Thoughts with Connor Mac Lyrr
"Alack! The heads do not die!"

stika

I like his games, Jazz Jackrabbit, Unreal Tournament and Gears of War, plus I thought his let's play of the Bulletstorm demo was pretty funny.

oh and there's always this:


Lambonius

#262
I think what stika was suggesting earlier (and correct me if I'm wrong) was that the unbelievably positive consequences of the unmoderated Kickstarter comments may very well have been a calculated move on her part.  Essentially, that she knew what she was getting into would be controversial, and thus not only expected but HOPED to get lots of backlash in order to raise publicity (and presumably sympathy in the form of lots of dollars.)  It's really not nearly as unlikely a scenario as you might think--and if that's the case, it was a brilliant tactic that was utterly successful.  So good on her, for that.

Also, why can't one initiate a hypothetical discussion about the nature of art by using Venus-de-Milo-as-song-or-movie as a jumping off point?  "A sculpture is utterly different than a song or movie."  A comment like that would have gotten you laughed out of the cafe 100 years ago during the modern art scene in Europe.  In fact, one of the prevailing ideas of Modernism in art is precisely that all of the arts are fundamentally connected, if not formally, then conceptually and spiritually (spiritually here meaning the inner drive of the artist to create, not anything having to do with religion or faith.)  Read a little Kandinsky some time.   8)

In the case of the Venus de Milo, sure--the physical form of a sculpture is different than a song or movie, but the concept of the idealized female that it represents can be recreated and explored in any media.

snabbott

Quote from: KatieHal on March 13, 2013, 08:25:18 AM
I don't see the problem in asking for a rational discussion anywhere. You may be less likely to get in some places than others, but asking for one, really? I fail to see the problem with that.

Quote from: Lambonius on March 13, 2013, 10:45:37 AM
I think what stika was suggesting earlier (and correct me if I'm wrong) was that the unbelievably positive consequences of the unmoderated Kickstarter comments may very well have been a calculated move on her part.  Essentially, that she knew what she was getting into would be controversial, and thus not only expected but HOPED to get lots of backlash in order to raise publicity (and presumably sympathy in the form of lots of dollars.)

That's how I took it, as well. Yes, there's nothing wrong with asking for rational feedback, but what are the chances she was naive enough to expect such a thing from 4chan users? Even if that was the motive, though, it's not necessarily wrong.

Steve Abbott | Beta Tester | The Silver Lining

Bludshot

Deep Thoughts with Connor Mac Lyrr
"Alack! The heads do not die!"

stika

I believe she knew what she was doing, though then again, maybe that was her intention: To show everyone with gender issues in gaming and on the internet is in fact MUCH worse then we thought.

Now to be fair, I'm not saying it was wrong of her to do this, if she did thought of this then she's very intelligent and do I support her intentions? Of course
Do I like the presentation or her specific views on it? Meh, some I do, some I don't


snabbott

#266
Quote from: Bludshot on March 13, 2013, 11:39:36 AM
It was hardly just 4chan.
I wasn't saying it was - I was just responding to Katie's response to this:
Quote from: stika on March 13, 2013, 08:18:58 AM
After all, let's not forget that Anita herself went to 4chan, posted a link to her video there and asked for a "rational discussion" of all things, a rational discussion on 4chan? Come on now...

Also, while this is true:
Quote from: stika on March 13, 2013, 08:53:46 AM
I believe now you're taking two words with entirely different meanings the word "conservative" doesn't have to necessarily apply to "Conservative US" or pastors, or religion.

Even within liberals you can have "conservative" liberals.

As for your example, I never claimed that our medium has gender equality nor did I try (or would try) to defend that
The words conservative and liberal have (at least in the US) taken on some very strong connotations that have little to do with their actual meanings. :-\

Steve Abbott | Beta Tester | The Silver Lining

Neonivek

QuoteTo show everyone with gender issues in gaming and on the internet is in fact MUCH worse then we thought

It really doesn't. At least not to anyone who knows how the internet works.

Then again I don't think Cyberbullying is as big a deal as people think either. It only hurts people who are so depressed that they intentionally seek out negative things about themselves.

stika

Quote from: snabbott on March 13, 2013, 11:44:19 AM

Also, while this is true:
Quote from: stika on March 13, 2013, 08:53:46 AM
I believe now you're taking two words with entirely different meanings the word "conservative" doesn't have to necessarily apply to "Conservative US" or pastors, or religion.

Even within liberals you can have "conservative" liberals.

As for your example, I never claimed that our medium has gender equality nor did I try (or would try) to defend that
The words conservative and liberal have (at least in the US) taken on some very strong connotations that have little to do with their actual meanings. :-\

Yeah I suppose it might be a cultural thing, I guess I'll have to find a better word for it  :-\

snabbott

It's annoying when you can't use the correct word because its meaning has been subverted. :-\

Steve Abbott | Beta Tester | The Silver Lining

Deloria

Quote from: Neonivek on March 13, 2013, 11:45:21 AM
QuoteTo show everyone with gender issues in gaming and on the internet is in fact MUCH worse then we thought

It really doesn't. At least not to anyone who knows how the internet works.

Then again I don't think Cyberbullying is as big a deal as people think either. It only hurts people who are so depressed that they intentionally seek out negative things about themselves.
Keep in mind that you don't know people's trauma. Saying you think they should be gang-raped repeatedly and then shot can be very unpleasant to a lot of people.
 
Holy Roman Empress
Queen of *all* Albion
Précieuse and salonnière! :D
"In cases of doubt about language, it is ordinarily best to consult women."-Vaugelas
Space! :D Extraterrestrium! :D Espace! :D

stika

indeed, that is something I can't help but respect her, it takes a lot of courage to face up to so many people like that

KatieHal

Quote from: Neonivek on March 13, 2013, 11:45:21 AM
Then again I don't think Cyberbullying is as big a deal as people think either. It only hurts people who are so depressed that they intentionally seek out negative things about themselves.

I'm not sure I can begin to say how much I disagree with this. But if I had to guess, I would guess that you've never experienced bullying.

I'm not a person who suffers from depression, or ever has, nor do I seek out negativity. That said, did it effect me when a group of girls who didn't like me tried to get my entire 5th grade class to participate in an April Fool's Day joke on me? Did it effect me when the entire lunch table I had been sitting in 8th grade at moved tables just to try and get rid of me and I spent the next few months eating lunch in my English teacher's classroom instead? Did it effect me to have my peers mock me, call me names, and make me feel generally friendless throughout middle school?

Yes. You're damn right it did. And this was at a time when the internet wasn't there to allow people to additionally mock me on Facebook, Twitter, or other places where anyone could see, anonymously comment, endlessly mock me to the point where there was no escape.

So yes, cyberbullying (and regular bullying) IS a big deal. It IS wrong. It may not be anything that's happened to you before, and that's great, I'm happy you've not had to deal with anything like it. But don't assume the people it happens to are seeking it out, or that people aren't actually hurt by it. As Deloria said, you don't know them or what they've been through or how much they can take. And it is never okay to say things like a person, anyone, deserves to be hurt, mocked, killed, raped, or anything of that sort.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

stika

I'm sorry you went through that, Katie, no one should be bullied and I say that as someone who was on both ends of the spectrum

snabbott

Cyberbullying (or any form of bullying, for that matter): legally, it may be a gray area, but morally, it's just black.

Katie, I hope those people who bullied you get to see how much of a success you are now. :yes:

Steve Abbott | Beta Tester | The Silver Lining

KatieHal

#WINNING

Thanks guys. It sucked at the time, a lot, but I believe I've come out a stronger and better person for it. Nonetheless, my story isn't everyone's and there are far too many people, especially young people, whose stories of bullying have turned tragic. And those are just the ones we've heard about--there are always more stories like that out there, and it's just wrong that it happens at all.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Balinaeri

Katie,
I'm sorry you had to go through that. A lot of us experienced similar things. Most of us not as bad as yours, but some worse. And as you say, some with tragic consequences.

It can't help at the time, but today you can take solace in the fact that most of your tormenters are likely a) in jail, b) working at gas stations, or c) not working at all. (At least that's the case for mine...I only assume it's the case for yours.) And, as others have said, you have achieved, despite, or perhaps because of what you had to go through.

My hat's off to you.

You reap what you sow.
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

Deloria

One more thing: Anonymous cyberbullying is one thing, but this is a woman who is a highly prolific youtuber and whom people would recognise in RL. She has actual reason to fear for her life when the entire internet starts targeting her and makes it known that raping or killing this woman is an okay thing to do for society.
 
Holy Roman Empress
Queen of *all* Albion
Précieuse and salonnière! :D
"In cases of doubt about language, it is ordinarily best to consult women."-Vaugelas
Space! :D Extraterrestrium! :D Espace! :D

Lambonius

I'm a little sad that my awesome snotty art post hasn't yet been addressed.  Everyone seems more interested in "staying on topic."  Lame.

snabbott

Sorry, Lamb. I guess nobody wants to argue with the expert. We're not worthy! :bow:

Better? :P

Steve Abbott | Beta Tester | The Silver Lining