Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!

[snabbott]

What? You don't go around throwing bridles at snakes in order to get magic sugar cubes?

[Enchantermon]

Doesn't everybody? It's only 10 am and I've already thrown three today!

[wilco64256]

I tossed one this morning but missed and I had to run to work so I didn't have another chance yet.  I'll get back to it later tonight when I get home.

[KatieHal]

Personally, I've adapted the custard pie-yeti trick to clear traffic out of my way in the morning.

[Haids1987]

With all the yetis that have been spotted lurking in the forests around here, I should keep more custard pies on hand...

[Cez]

Damn snakes and briddles. Had to drink bitter coffee this morning because I missed!

[snabbott]

Damn snakes and briddles. Had to drink bitter coffee this morning because I missed!

Are you sure it wasn't Bittar coffee? (Yes, I know - bad joke. I'm sure you've only heard that a million times.)

(Posted on: April 27, 2011, 01:55:36 PM)

Oh, and you know modly cheese always comes in handy for charging your cell phone!

[wilco64256]

Modly cheese...  It's what mods eat with their crackers.

[Haids1987]

Oh, and you know modly cheese always comes in handy for charging your cell phone!

See, something didn't look right to me there but I couldn't figure it out.  I read the sentence, looked at the word for a good long time, and still couldn't figure out what was wrong with it.  It took Weldon's comment for me to get it.

[snabbott]

Oh, and you know modly cheese always comes in handy for charging your cell phone!

See, something didn't look right to me there but I couldn't figure it out.  I read the sentence, looked at the word for a good long time, and still couldn't figure out what was wrong with it.  It took Weldon's comment for me to get it.

Oops!

[kindofdoon]

Had to drink bitter coffee this morning because I missed!

Are you sure it wasn't Bittar coffee?

Hooray!

[darthkiwi]

There might have been some illogical puzzles in the KQ series before, but I think that's really a weakness of the series. The cheese puzzle makes no sense and could never be figured out except through frustration and trial and error. I just don't think that's a great recipe for an adventure game. And, yes, there were some less than logical puzzles in KQ2 but you did tend to be guided as to what you should do next by the messages on the doors. And it's not like they were *that* illogical: giving flowers or a basket of goodies to red riding hood, giving a shell to the mermaid, using a cloth to cover the bird, rubbing the lamp - these all obey an internal logic. The parts with a less logical solution - catching the fish and then throwing it back, speaking "Home" to go home etc. - were all, in my opinion, much more annoying and weaker parts of the game.

Now, I'm aware that my opinion doesn't really count for much since any criticism of a game will be subjective. But, if you take a look at some of the puzzles in the KQ games then they often obey a sort of logic even if the solutions wouldn't work in real life. In KQ5, for example, you throw a boot at a cat and a pie at a yeti; while this might initially seem odd, both boots and pies are objects which people associate with being thrown; they therefore have a sort of logic to them, since the player would look in their inventory, knowing they have to throw something, and see that they have certain objects which are associated with throwing. A more straightforward example is KQ6's isle of the beast puzzles: the pool is too hot so you throw something cold in it; the archer shoots you so you use a shield; the hedge blocks your path so you cut it. These were all very logical puzzles and, I believe, felt very fair as a result.

I don't think TSL was ever as completely random as the "cheese power" puzzle in KQ5, but there were a few moments where it wasn't as logical as I'd have liked, the "crystal tear for web-b-gone" and standing stone puzzles being my main objections. Note that I do not object to the difficulty of these puzzles: they were both no more difficult than other puzzles, since enough information was given to allow the player to figure them out fairly easily. What I object to is the underlying logic of the situation which gives rise to the puzzle, which, in turn, forms part of the logic of the game world. Yes, the world is magical, but do you ever notice how "Magic fixed everything!" is a really unsatisfying conclusion to any story? Yes, magic could fix any problem and create any bizarre world, but a narrative or game should ideally knit together a world which has a sense of cohesion, so that the player is drawn in, more likely to say "Ah, I see how this fits into the world!" than "What? Why is that there?"

Of course, these are not *major* problems. Both the crystal tear thing and the standing stones puzzle could have been fleshed out in the conversations with the archdruid and the shopkeeper, which would have introduced them into the world more gently and made the player less likely to be surprised at them.

I'm probably nit-picking, and you guys have done a tremendous job with this game. But I feel like if I'd just posted "Yeah! Great job!" on the forums with no criticism or suggestions, then my post wouldn't have been very useful.

[Cez]

No, don't get me wrong, I appreciate the feedback. For the record, since those two puzzles in question were added recently, we didn't have access to the actors, which is why we introduced them through different means.

[darthkiwi]

Ohhhhh, that makes a lot of sense actually. Gotcha

I mean, my goal in pointing out what I see as the flaws of the game is purely to draw attention to how they could be overcome or better implemented in future games. And, obviously, putting TSL together as a whole is a very tricky feat since you're using volunteers, have only limited access to voice actors and are trying to balance the requirements of nostalgia with the requirements of novelty. It's a really difficult thing to get right, and while I don't think TSL is perfect, I don't think *any* conclusion to the KQ series could be perfect.

This game is, I hope, going to act not just as an excellent project but also one on which the team learns a lot, and I'm just pointing out where, in my view, you dropped the ball (understandably) so that you have a better idea of what to be aware of, and learn even more from the experience.

[Lambonius]

This thread contains way too much coddling for my tastes.  Good on ya, darthkiwi, for the honest crits.  I agree in full with your points.

And now for the barrage of cheap, poorly-worded excuses...

[KatieHal]

Ah, Lamb's in one of those moods tonight I see.  

[DawsonJ]

I really appreciate all the hard work put into this game. Thank you to all of the team!

I would like to request some dialogue / description regarding the Dangling Participle in the Four Winds building. He was such an awesome little critter in KQ6, but totally omitted from all descriptions, despite being visible when looking at the Black Widow.

Also, the red checker which stays on the beach on the Isle of Wonder isn't even clickable, just ignored when clicking any icon on it. The same for the woman at the Cafe, near the blacksmith's shop.  Or maybe they're just that way on my computer?

Thanks!

[Arkillian]

Do you have the extended descriptions turned on?

[KatieHal]

The woman in the cafe doesn't have her own description, no.

[DawsonJ]

Sorry, I just noticed your post. I don't have the "Short Narration" box checked under Options, so I guess I have the extended narration. Is the Dangling Participle mentioned? I saw it, but never heard a mention of it, even with subtitles on.