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Feedback and thoughts on Episode 3!

Started by dark-daventry, February 17, 2011, 02:51:19 PM

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Sslaxx

#40
[spoiler]Anyone want to do a comic on the possibility of the Arch Druid being Graham's brother-in-law?[/spoiler]

[spoiler]More pertinently, if Valanice is Fand, then the potential for quite disturbing mind*u**ery with regards to Alexander and Manannan is substantially increased.[/spoiler]
Stuart "Sslaxx" Moore.

Enchantermon

First of all: [spoiler]MAN-an-nan? :P I mean, really, couldn't you have at least gotten Shadrack's VA to re-record the name?[/spoiler]

Anyway, I really enjoyed this episode. The crashing bug was frustrating, but putting that aside this really was the best one yet. The puzzles were very clever and most were not too obvious, and the action sequence was fun, though it had a little room for improvement (which I've already talked about here).

The art continues to be quite wonderful. Models still have a tendency to sink into each other at times, but this would have taken a long time to improve and would have probably required overhauls of the models that weren't possible. I did also notice some audio syncing issues during conversations, though that may have been my computer being slow, I don't know.

Now, as far as the plot is concerned (I'm just going to spoiler tag this whole section):
[spoiler]This is all very intriguing. So Valanice is really Manannan's daughter, but she doesn't know it because her memory has been wiped. This is interesting, because if she has no knowledge of this, why did Shadrack pop up in her room and monologue about her not telling Graham of her "dirty little secrets"? How could she tell him about that which she does not remember?
In any event, I'm more interested in how this affects the previously established canon. In KQII's manual, it's stated quite clearly that Hagatha (man, I didn't think she could get any uglier, ugh, well done) locked her in a tower because of jealousy over her beauty, but that's obviously not the case. That's a little easier to overlook though; perhaps that was the cover story that was perpetuated either by Hagatha, Manannan and Shadrack themselves or by Valanice's foster parents. What is more difficult to overlook is the fact that Manannan steals Alexander because Shadrack ordered him to. This directly contradicts the backstory of KQIII, which states that Alexander is just one in a long line of slave boys who were kidnapped and murdered before they became a threat. Furthermore, it contradicts Manannan's whole attitude towards Alexander in KQIII. I'll explain.

If Manannan kidnapped Alexander, the spawn of a valiant man like Graham and a headstrong woman like Valanice, it stands to reason that he would be relatively crafty himself. Manannan would know this, and especially so having been keeping tabs on Graham and with Valanice being his own daughter. So treating Alex like a slave, ordering him around and punishing him at the drop of a hat, while it might break some weaker-willed boys, he would have known that there was a good chance it would only cause Alex's anger to burn against him, pushing him to find some way of disposing of his slave driver (and, indeed, this is exactly what happens). It makes more sense for Manannan to steal him away as a baby and then raise him as if he were his own son, brainwashing him to become as evil as he, and slowly teaching him the magical arts as Shadrack instructed. The way KQIII unfolds, Manannan acts irresponsibly and irrationally given the new plot elements presented in TSL.

So as you can see, this is kind of a problem, unless Manannan is just an idiot, which is an impression that I certainly don't get from him. And this is completely disregarding the fact that the manual states that he had been kidnapping boys for years, though it's true that this may have just been a habit he picked up on his own and Shadrack simply used that reputation to his advantage when formulating the plan. Given the manual's timeline, it's certainly impossible that Manannan started kidnapping boys after Shadrack gave him the order to nab Alex in order to cover his tracks, so to speak.

But here is my theory as to how this affects the rest of the timeline: as a result of Manannan being a dolt, he riles up Alex to the point where Alex can't take it anymore, gets transformed into a cat (and is just lucky that nothing worse happened to him) and the entire plan is ruined, forcing Shadrack to resort to plan B, which, I assume, involved the plot of KQV: Mordack kidnapping the royal family to get Alex to reverse the spell on Manannan. When that failed due to Graham coming to the rescue, Shadrack already had Plan C in motion; he had previously instructed Mordack to kidnap Cassima so that Alhazred could murder her parents and gain control of the Green Isles. Had the plan to reverse the spell on Manannan worked, things probably would have gone pretty bad for Alex and Rosella from then on, and whatever Shadrack's plans for the twins is (which I assume will be revealed in TSL E4 and 5) would have likely taken place then. But since Mordack failed, Shadrack probably sent Cassima's image to the Magic Mirror in the same way he sent Valanice's (according to TSL) in the hopes of attracting the attention of Alex. Sure enough, Alex come traipsing into the Land of the Green Isles to rescue his beloved, and the stage is set. Shadrack has Alex right where he wants him, and just waits until the time is right.

Now, granted, this creates some inconsistencies with the plot of KQVI, mostly because Alhazred takes every available opportunity to try and murder you when you arrive. Even if Shadrack didn't purposely draw Alex to the Green Isles, Alhazred's crusade for your head on a stick still makes no sense since Alhazred was himself a Black Cloak and should know that Shadrack has plans for Alex (that no doubt depend on him being alive).

Anyway, I'm looking forward to discovering where the plot will go from here, but I'm hoping there won't be too many other gaping holes opened up. I mean, I know it's a fan project, but I would have still hoped that bringing closure to the series wouldn't have opened up any plot holes. Perhaps they'll be sewn together in a way I haven't thought of yet, though, so we'll see. :)[/spoiler]
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

KatieHal

To some of your thoughts at the end there, Enchantermon:

[spoiler]Don't forget the contents of the letters that Shamir showed to Graham in Episode 2, and what Alhazred was being told in them. [/spoiler]

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Enchantermon

Hmm. I'll have to replay Episode 2 (or dig through the resources); I can't remember what they said. I'll definitely look them over, though.
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Cez

[spoiler]He's not an idiot, but he has very strong feelings mixed up in here, and he's sort of hot-headed. There's more of that that will be unveiled in Ep5 as to our take why Manannan almost tried to kill Alexander at any chance he got. And even further.

As for the taking boys part, that's still part of the plot. Alexander recognizes that Manannan has done this in ep2 (murdered the boys that came before him)--which fits Shadrack's plans even further.

Also, yes, this is fan-fiction, and we are sort of taking some liberties at reshaping some things for sure.
[/spoiler]


Cesar Bittar
CEO
Phoenix Online
cesar.bittar@postudios.com

Enchantermon

#45
Katie, Cez, thanks for the replies. :)
Quote from: KatieHal on February 20, 2011, 07:30:59 PM[spoiler]Don't forget the contents of the letters that Shamir showed to Graham in Episode 2, and what Alhazred was being told in them. [/spoiler]
Went back through the beginning of Episode 2.
[spoiler]Okay, so Alhazred simply did not receive word that he was to not kill Alexander until after the whole ordeal in KQVI was over. Since the whole series of events takes place in the span of only one day, that's fairly plausible.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Cez on February 20, 2011, 07:42:36 PM
[spoiler]There's more of that that will be unveiled in Ep5 as to our take why Manannan almost tried to kill Alexander at any chance he got. And even further.[/spoiler]
Okay. That's what I was hoping. I look forward to it. :)
Quote from: Cez on February 20, 2011, 07:42:36 PM
[spoiler]As for the taking boys part, that's still part of the plot. Alexander recognizes that Manannan has done this in ep2 (murdered the boys that came before him)--which fits Shadrack's plans even further.[/spoiler]
Mmkay. Again, looking forward to the explanations in later episodes.
Also again, [spoiler]I had forgotten that Alex mentions this to Manannan in Ep. 2. That's one of the problems with episodic releases; sometimes during the waiting period you forget things that happened in the previous episodes. I guess I should have gone back through the other two before formulating these ideas.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Cez on February 20, 2011, 07:42:36 PM
[spoiler]Also, yes, this is fan-fiction, and we are sort of taking some liberties at reshaping some things for sure.[/spoiler]
Right...[spoiler]and, just to clarify, I am fully prepared for the fact that I may not agree with the direction you take things. Such is the nature of fanfiction. I was just expressing my opinions on the matter and looking for some explanations. Thanks for helping me out. :)[/spoiler]
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

tessspoon

I feel like my whole view of the KQ world just got turned on its head, and I'm loving it so far. I can see why some people wouldn't like where it's headed and the changes going on but for me, I love these kind of stories, having plot twists, and all the backstory that's being built to connect the games and the reasons behind the characters' actions. Maybe it helps that I've come to the series - with the exception of 7- relatively recently, I dunno.

Even if I wasn't horrible at coming up with criticism I wouldn't have much to say anyway. Loved the music, the action sequence, the puzzles, the story, everything really. Only negative I had really was the crashing but that's been covered. So, very much looking forward to the last couple episodes, and I'm very glad I decided to look into other KQ games that day back in high school. TSL's looking to be more fun and captivating than I could have imagined. Thank you! :)

Arkillian

Ah- I'm SO glad people are now discussing this! I LOVED this new plot twist. Please do it right though, Phoenix. If you do, I will worship you forvever cause this has my mind BUZZING.



waltzdancing

Oh, we aren't done messing with you all yet. The plot only thickens.

TCron33

Hello!

Just wanted to tell you all how much I have enjoyed playing TSL!  ;D  The Sierra games are my all time favorites, and you have done such a fantastic job on these episodes.  I haven't spent so much time playing a computer game since I was in high school.  I can't wait to see what comes next!

writerlove

[spoiler]  :shock: Manannan actually has a heart? He seemed to have a little remorse in the conversation with Shadrack. Hmmm. Y'all are totally throwing us for a loop. and now I'm looking forward to the next installment. Great storytelling!  [/spoiler]
"Love can't be banished, even from this place. ... still less can it be banished from my heart."
"ENOUGH! Burden me not with thy poetry."-KQ6

night-owl

Well..

[spoiler] What had Mannan actually done to Valanice?  If she;s of druidic orgin, did Manana kidnap her? Or is he her father? It's obvious that as with Alexander and the poor Graham he had already had everything planned- such a complex intrigue too... I think he;d sooner make her believe that he is her father while making her forget about druidic origins...because obiously the Kolyma parents are of no significance. And he made her forget a lot lof things, whicxh I found an excellent twist, of course. She clearly didn't want any of this though at the same time she knew what her future would be. If Mannan has a heart, for some reason it is bound to Shadrack and that reason is connected with their ploy and with Black cloaks. They needed Valanice. Which makes her another pawn. I'd just hope the druidic part became clear. [/spoiler]
Hold fast to dreams for if dreams die, life is a broken-winged bird that cannot fly.

dark-daventry

Quote from: waltzdancing on February 21, 2011, 12:04:49 AM
Oh, we aren't done messing with you all yet. The plot only thickens.

How true this statement is.  :suffer:
Founder of the (new) Left Handed Alliance Of Left Handed People (LHALHP)

Gay and proud of it!

Avid Adventure Game fan

Sslaxx

Quote from: dark-daventry on February 23, 2011, 03:03:01 PM
Quote from: waltzdancing on February 21, 2011, 12:04:49 AM
Oh, we aren't done messing with you all yet. The plot only thickens.

How true this statement is.  :suffer:
I'm also bemused at the "plot holes" thread. How can you have plot holes when the whole story hasn't yet been told?
Stuart "Sslaxx" Moore.

Arkillian

Quote from: Sslaxx on February 23, 2011, 03:16:22 PM
Quote from: dark-daventry on February 23, 2011, 03:03:01 PM
Quote from: waltzdancing on February 21, 2011, 12:04:49 AM
Oh, we aren't done messing with you all yet. The plot only thickens.

How true this statement is.  :suffer:
I'm also bemused at the "plot holes" thread. How can you have plot holes when the whole story hasn't yet been told?

This is what I said :/ It's not a hole till it's left unexplained.



psullivan32

Excellent work! Thanks for a super-enjoyable game--I'm looking forward to episode 4!

Aurelind

First off, this was an awesome episode!  ;D I just finished it last night, and it was very much worth the wait.  Great puzzles, great plot revelations, great new locations and music, all wrapped up in a package big enough to be satisfying but small enough to leave me wanting more.  The team has done some excellent work here, and has every right to be proud.

Now, as far as constructive criticism...

The frequent crashing of the game was most vexing, but I see that's already being addressed.

As much as I love the music, there are some scenes where it overpowers the dialogue to the point of making it difficult to follow without the subtitles on.  The scene where Graham [spoiler]releases the butterfly in front of the Morrigan[/spoiler] is a prime example of that.  I understand that it may be too late to go back and adjust levels for things like that, but at least it's something to look out for in future episodes.

In a similar vein, in the final cutscene, I noticed that [spoiler]Shadrack pronounces the name "MAN-ah-nan" when as far as I can remember, everyone else in this and previous games says it "Mah-NAN-an."  Is Shadrack not a native English/Daventrean speaker, perhaps?  Or maybe he just enjoys intentionally pronouncing his subordinate's name wrong to peeve him off? ;) [/spoiler] Either way, this is very minor, but it stuck out at me.

On the action/arcade sequence, I'm divided.  I found it extremely frustrating.  I'm terrible at these sorts of games, and would never choose to play one myself.  In order to get through this sequence, I had to fail dozens of times until I could learn the sequence of actions by rote and anticipate them... and every time I thought the arcade part was over, a fresh new twitch-torment awaited me, and then great indeed was my invective, and not fit for the ears of children.  :P  The music and visuals here were incredible, but I couldn't enjoy them because I was white-knuckling the mouse the whole way.  Yes, the story at this point warrants tension, and this certainly helps build it, but one of the things I love about the adventure game genre is that it's primarily a cerebral exercise, and I don't feel like I should need catlike reflexes to solve one.  Sure, there were shocks and time-sensitive puzzles in previous KQs, but you could pop your mouse up to the interface bar to pause for an "Oh, fewmets!  :o " break if you needed it.  I have a housebound friend who enjoys puzzle and adventure games, and I'd like to be able to share this one with her, but with her mobility issues there's simply no way she'll ever beat this sequence herself.  Would it be at all possible to institute some kind of "mercy mode" if the player fails a particular action say, five times in a row?  I understand why you created this sequence, and it has many good points to commend it, but it's not what people expect in an adventure game, and it may drive the less-physically-adept among us away from a game we'd otherwise enjoy and excel at.

Again, overall this was a great episode, with just those few (mostly minor issues).  Thanks for all your work on this game.  We probably can't say that enough.

elobello

absolutely stunning work.

loved the way the story moved forward

Loved the graphics and such

Just a touch too much cut-scene chitchat in the beginning of the episode.

You guys should be very proud of yourselves.

Nilan8888

Enchantermon, RE: Alexander & Mannanan:

[spoiler]It might be that Mannanan had conflicted thoughts on what to do with Alexander, and had more than an inkling on what teaching Alexander the Dark Arts would mean, and what Shadrack's intentions were.

IF, for instance, Shadrack intends a plan for Alexander that would be a fate worse than death, and Mannanan suspects this, it could be that Mannanan kept putting off everything with Alex until his 18th birthday. And as time went on he was not certain to go through with the plan or kill Alexander as a sort of mercy.[/spoiler]

Alexander ticking Mannanan off in KQIII could then easily tip the scales as his birthday approaches. He'd decide to kill him then and there, justifying it as a mercy for the boy anyway since if he were to let him live, [spoiler]he would be forced to give him over to Shadrack's plan.[/spoiler]

fred

Hi over there !
Just started playing EP3 and kids and I just wanted to say : MARVELLOUS !   :suffer:  ;D
worth the waiting !
(kids love the French guard dog)

(works very well with wine under fedora13 now)