Author Topic: Plot-holes (spoilers)  (Read 34746 times)

Sir Perceval of Daventry

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Plot-holes (spoilers)
« on: February 22, 2011, 10:56:42 PM »
I've noticed some potential plot holes:

Shadrack realizes Manannan has divided mixed feelings, guilt, etc about sending Valanice away (he references these ''mixed feelings" specifically), and yet he sends Alexander--presumably someone who Shadrack feels is very important--to someone who has mixed feelings and thus, divided loyalties. He tells him not to treat the boy kindly so that Manny doesn't get mixed feelings again. He also chides Manannan for failing to recover the Magic Mirror, or stop Graham from doing so, as they need it to recover Pandora's Box.
That said:

1) If you're Shadrack, the evil leader of an evil organization, would you really want someone on your team who isn't totally evil--who has something of a heart? Wouldn't it just be a wiser decision to send Alex to someone who doesn't have these feelings? Moreover, would you place somene who is incredibly important to your plans under this man's care and instruct him to act even more evil and teach him Dark Magic? He's already suffering from what could turn into divided loyalties.

2) Manannan is told not to treat Alexander kindly so that he (Manny) doesn't have "second thoughts". That doesn't make sense. If you put a little child into the hands of Manannan, someone who isn't totally evil, and this child is his own grandsn, wouldn't treating them even worse than you treated your daughter (whipping him, for example)--which obviously bothers Manny--Wouldn't treating Alex so horribly make Manannan feel more confused about his feelings? Blood is blood.

Not only that, but wouldn't treating Alexander horribly make him less inclined to join your cause? They seem to want him to join the BCS' cause or at the very least Dark Magic, so...wouldn't Manny treating him kindly actually make Alex more inclined to join them?

3) Manannan is told to teach Alex the Dark Arts. Yet we never see him doing this, and in fact, if Alexander is in posession of ANY of Manannan's magical items, or happens to find his way into Manannan's laboratory, Manny kills him. In fact, hiding such items is a key part of the gameplay of KQ3. Killing him if he happens to stumble onto some magical spells doesn't seem to be a good way to introduce him to magic. Also, in KQ5, Alexander explains he ACCIDENTALLY stumbled onto some magic spells--He makes no mention of being taught magic.

4) Manannan was apparently tasked with stopping Graham from getting the Magic Mirror. I'm guessing that means Manannan was the wandering enchanter in KQ1--No one actively tries to stop Graham from getting the Mirror, except the Dragon (and he's cowed down very easily). Why didn't they use the Mirror when Mordack kidnapped the Royal Family and captured the castle in KQ5? Why didn't Manannan just go into the Castle and steal it while Graham was away from Daventry to rescue Valanice during KQ2?

I'm presuming that the Sorceror who tricked Edward out of the Mirror in the first place was a member of the BCS. Which would mean in the decades before and up to KQ1, it was in their possession. Leaving them decades to use it to find Pandora's Box--why didn't they find it anytime in this period? We're shown even though Shadrack is apparently in some sort of prison, he is able to leave his prison at least for brief times by the time of KQ2, why couldn't they just have Shadrack do a quick look into it in this period?

Why didn't he or a minion of his come to Graham between KQ2 and KQ3 under the guise of helping Graham make the Mirror unclouded and then abscond with it?

Moreover, if they needed the Mirror in their posession to get Pandora's Box, how were they able to know where the Box was in KQ4, when the Mirror was safely in Graham's possession?

5) Shadrack wants Graham and Valanice to get together, and even sets the events of KQ2 in motion it would seem. In fact, he hopes that they have offspring. If Hagatha is part of the BCS and Graham and Valanice having kids was (possibly) instrumental to Shadrack's return to power, why does Hagatha try to catch and eat Graham? Wouldn't that be counter-productive to Graham rescuing Valanice and having children with her?

6) Shadrack, in his letter to Abdul Alhazred in KQ6, mentions that Mordack was a "ninny at chess"--implying he had played it with him at least more than once. If Shadrack can only leave his prison briefly, how is he able to spend his precious and very evil time playing games of Chess with Mordack? Why is he wasting his time in this way? How is he able to send dozens of letters to Alhazred?

7) Not a plot hole exactly, but...Valanice is Manannan's daughter, and thus Mordack's niece. Yet in KQ5, Mordack threatens to feed the Royal Family to Manannan, starting with Valanice...Thus Manny would be eating his own daughter. A little freaky, no? And isn't Valanice important to all of this? Why kill her off?

I'm assuming they were involved in KQ6 as well, related somehow to the Royal Family. How would they know Alexander would fall in love with Cassima?

A few others but my fingers are tired....
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 01:31:20 AM by Sir Perceval of Daventry »

Offline Arkillian

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2011, 11:00:53 PM »
Personally, I'd like to think these will be explained. They've just been presented to us, so they can't be plot holes till the end of the story, right? Right now, they're just hook lines. As long as all the hook lines catch plot in the end, it'll be fine :) There IS a lot of explaining to do though, I must admit >.>


Sir Perceval of Daventry

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2011, 01:22:12 AM »
Another plothole:

In KQ2, there's a lion guarding the door to Valanice's tower, which can kill Graham. Yet Shadrack WANTS Graham to meet Valanice, and Manannan agrees...So why put a lion, which could kill him, thus ending the possibility of Valanice's union with him, in front of the door to her room? If it was there to kill Valanice if she tried to escape, that doesn't make sense, since she's apparently important to them.

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2011, 01:33:36 AM »
They said that they could put it to their advantage. Didn't mean they wanted Graham to survive.


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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2011, 01:39:33 AM »
They said that they could put it to their advantage. Didn't mean they wanted Graham to survive.

They said they hoped for a union which would produce children. He basically set up the plot of KQ2 by implying that he'd make Valanice appear in the Magic Mirror for Graham.

Offline oberonqa

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2011, 01:51:10 AM »
Now see.... I noticed that in the final cutscene, Manannan specifically says "She called me Father".  This implies to me that Valanice was brainwashed by the BCS... probably to wipe away any memories of her life prior to being kidnapped.  Also, Manannan tried to "unlock her potential".  Manannan specifically tells Valanice in that cutscene that he wasn't supposed to have done that and could be severely punished by Shadrack if this came to light.  Obviously Shadrack knows that Manannan developed a soft-spot for Valanice and specifically instructs Manannan to not be kind to Alexander and not run the risk of developing a soft-spot.

Also remember that Faan's parents sent candles that Faan had made using a portion of her own life force to the Archdruid so that he could try to locate Faan.  Also remember that only someone who was truly interested in helping Faan could move the unlit candle and that person happens to be Graham.  Valanice is Faan... who was kidnapped from her parents and home.  Manannan would not have had any contact with the Archdruid, and he certainly would not have sent the Archdruid anything that belonged to Faan... especially something that was supposed to be used to find and aid Faan.

Removing the familial connection between Valaince/Alexander/Manannan/Mordack, then Manannan's behavior towards Alexander in KQ3 is perfectly normal... as is Mordack's behavior towards the Royal Family.

As for Manannan's orders to teach Alexander Dark Magic.... remember we only see Alexander when he is a few weeks shy of 18 years old.  Manannan had Alexander for the entire length of his life, having received Alexander as an infant (the means and method of Alexander's kidnapping are not covered in the original KQ3, but the game makes a specific point to mention Alexander was kidnapped as an infant).  Who can say what happened to Alexander during his childhood?  No one really knows.  Perhaps Alexander was taught Dark Magic sub-consciously by simply being in such close proximity to Manannan for so many years.  There would have to be something done there, as Alexander was able to cast the spells from Manannan's spellbook... and someone who didn't have any knowledge (either conscious or subconscious) of Dark Magic would not have been able to cast those spells (which goes all the way back to D&D's establishment of assorted schools/circles of magic and the rule that wizards of one school/circle of magic could not cast spells from a different school/circle).  While most of the spells that Alexander cast were rather ambiguous or neutral in terms of alignment, the Cat Cookie spell was most definitely a Dark Magic spell.  The purpose of the spell is to cause the eater of the cookie to be transformed into a cat with no way to reverse the spell unless the spell caster casts the proper counter-spell.  Actually... the Cat Cookie spell isn't so much a spell as it is a curse, which in my book makes it Dark (evil) magic.

As for the Magic Mirror and why Mordack didn't use the mirror while he had possession of the Royal Family in KQ5... the mirror would have been shrunk down to a minuscule size along with the rest of the castle and it's inhabitants.  Mordack would not have had any convenient way of getting the mirror... short of either returning the castle to it's normal size and retrieving the mirror.... or shrinking himself down to the appropriate size and teleporting into the castle and getting the mirror.  Both methods might have worked... or they might not have worked.  Either way, the question that should be asked is why didn't Mordack try either of these methods?  Perhaps because he wasn't supposed to have kidnapped the family in the first place?  There is no evidence in official cannon (read: the games... not the Companion.... sorry Baggins) that suggests that Mordack was acting under Shadrack's orders.  He was simply trying to get Alexander to reverse the Cat Cookie spell/curse he cast on Manannan.  Mordack's only official BCS business in KQ5 was keeping/taking care of Cassima.

As for why Mordack didn't steal the mirror while Graham was off rescuing Valanice, perhaps it was decided by the BCS that Pandora's Box wasn't needed until the proper time and was safer in it's resting place than in the hands of the BCS.  After all, the BCS did hide the Mirror when they had it in their possession rather than keep it in the possession of one of their members.  This could be a potential plot hole, as there really is no compelling reason not to at least use the mirror to find out where the Box was stored... but even if the BCS used the mirror to divine the location of Pandora's Box (and by extension of that, the key to opening the crypt door) when they had access to it prior to KQ1, that knowledge would not have served them, since the only person who knows where the key is hiding now is Rosella (who left the key inside the crypt, effectively sealing the crypt for all time).  Still a potential loop hole, as the BCS could send either Hagatha or Alhazared to Daventry to steal the mirror to find out this information.  Or Shadrack could teleport himself to the mirror and use it without stealing it.  But it does stand to reason that they knew where the Box was... or at least the general region (unless it's just a coincidence that Llollote is seeking the box and she's NOT a member of the BCS).  And that does imply they used the mirror sometime while it was in their possession prior to KQ1.  I'm sure POS has something up their sleeves to explain this...

As for Hagatha's involvement in KQ2, ever hear the old saying "there's no such thing as a free lunch?"  Hagatha had to make a good show of impeding Graham's progress in Kolyma so as to avoid arousing Graham's suspicions.  If she truly was interested in stopping Graham, all she really had to do was push him into the poisoned moat surrounding Dracula's castle.  As it currently stands, she is more of a minor inconvenience in KQ2... she does not truly stand in Graham's way, but she doesn't make it too obvious that she's not standing in Graham's way.

In regards to the letters Shadrack sent to Alhazared and his famous chess matches with Mordack, this is a legitimate plothole.... at the very least I can think of nothing that would convincingly explain these things with Shadrack still imprisoned.  Actually.... there is one thing.... but it's rather flimsly as an explanation.  The physical being that is Shadrack remained imprisoned until the events of TSL... but Shadrack was able to send a shadow of himself outside the prison where he could communicate with the other members of the BCS, but could not tap into any part of his vast power.  Like I said... it's flimsly... but it might be the direction POS goes in explaining this potential plothole.

As for Alexander falling in love with Cassima, I honestly don't think the BCS knew this would happen.  Especially if, as I said earlier, Mordack was acting alone and independently of the BCS when he kidnapped the Royal Family.   It was a chance meeting and could not have been predicted.  Furthermore, Alexander falling in love with Cassima put into jeopardy (and foiled) a rather elaborate BCS scheme to put Alhazared on the throne of the Green Isles.  If the BCS did, by some chance, foresee Mordack's independent actions in KQ5 and Alexander meeting and falling in love with Cassima, they most certainly would have foreseen Alexander foiling their plans in the Green Isles and would have taken steps to ensure that didn't happen.
 
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Offline Baggins

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2011, 02:21:43 AM »
I don't know with the revelation that Manannan is Val's father the reference to Cedric as her father in the Four Winds kinda confusing since It doesn't directly explain how she ended up in Cedric's hands? Maybe it's a matter of too much info on part of Four Winds trying to force elements of Companion while overall ignoring it on most details.
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Sir Perceval of Daventry

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2011, 02:38:10 AM »
Now see.... I noticed that in the final cutscene, Manannan specifically says "She called me Father".  This implies to me that Valanice was brainwashed by the BCS... probably to wipe away any memories of her life prior to being kidnapped.  Also, Manannan tried to "unlock her potential".  Manannan specifically tells Valanice in that cutscene that he wasn't supposed to have done that and could be severely punished by Shadrack if this came to light.  Obviously Shadrack knows that Manannan developed a soft-spot for Valanice and specifically instructs Manannan to not be kind to Alexander and not run the risk of developing a soft-spot.

Also remember that Faan's parents sent candles that Faan had made using a portion of her own life force to the Archdruid so that he could try to locate Faan.  Also remember that only someone who was truly interested in helping Faan could move the unlit candle and that person happens to be Graham.  Valanice is Faan... who was kidnapped from her parents and home.  Manannan would not have had any contact with the Archdruid, and he certainly would not have sent the Archdruid anything that belonged to Faan... especially something that was supposed to be used to find and aid Faan.

Just wanted to respond to this point.
Shadrack says Manannan's "sacrifice" is noted. If he wasn't her father, why would giving her up be a 'sacrifice' for him? Why would he feel bad about it, and stare out the window, deep in thought when she calls him "Father"? He also tells her she is the only "part of him" that remains pure--She is his blood, part of him.

Also, in context, Manannan isn't talking about being punished for "helping realize her gift", he is talking about going away with Valanice, leaving the Society, and also of letting her get away with her helping their enemy. She is punished for helping Graham in some way, that's why she's sent to the Tower.

What if Fann, or Aria, is actually Valanice's mother? Think about it...She has druid blood, and Manannan is her father. She says her parents, who Manannan says clearly are actually "not [her] parents", reside in Kolyma. Also, where is the grove of Druids in Kolyma if that were the case?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 02:39:55 AM by Sir Perceval of Daventry »

Offline oberonqa

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2011, 02:56:58 AM »
Now see.... I noticed that in the final cutscene, Manannan specifically says "She called me Father".  This implies to me that Valanice was brainwashed by the BCS... probably to wipe away any memories of her life prior to being kidnapped.  Also, Manannan tried to "unlock her potential".  Manannan specifically tells Valanice in that cutscene that he wasn't supposed to have done that and could be severely punished by Shadrack if this came to light.  Obviously Shadrack knows that Manannan developed a soft-spot for Valanice and specifically instructs Manannan to not be kind to Alexander and not run the risk of developing a soft-spot.

Also remember that Faan's parents sent candles that Faan had made using a portion of her own life force to the Archdruid so that he could try to locate Faan.  Also remember that only someone who was truly interested in helping Faan could move the unlit candle and that person happens to be Graham.  Valanice is Faan... who was kidnapped from her parents and home.  Manannan would not have had any contact with the Archdruid, and he certainly would not have sent the Archdruid anything that belonged to Faan... especially something that was supposed to be used to find and aid Faan.

Just wanted to respond to this point.
Shadrack says Manannan's "sacrifice" is noted. If he wasn't her father, why would giving her up be a 'sacrifice' for him? Why would he feel bad about it, and stare out the window, deep in thought when she calls him "Father"? He also tells her she is the only "part of him" that remains pure--She is his blood, part of him.

Also, in context, Manannan isn't talking about being punished for "helping realize her gift", he is talking about going away with Valanice, leaving the Society, and also of letting her get away with her helping their enemy. She is punished for helping Graham in some way, that's why she's sent to the Tower.

What if Fann, or Aria, is actually Valanice's mother? Think about it...She has druid blood, and Manannan is her father. She says her parents, who Manannan says clearly are actually "not [her] parents", reside in Kolyma. Also, where is the grove of Druids in Kolyma if that were the case?

Shadrack pointedly called what Manannan was doing as a "sacrifice" to drive home the point that he knew that Manannan had grown too close to Valanice and had developed feelings for her he should not have developed.  If Valanice was brainwashed into thinking Manannan was her father and Manannan played a kind and gentle fatherly figure, this would make sense.

As for his purity comment, if he had any part in Valanice's upbringing, then this would account for that comment.  He clearly cared for Valanice and it's obvious this wasn't something that should have happened.  Again, Shadrack specifically using the word "sacrifice" directly plays into this, as does his very pointed directions that should any offspring from Graham and Valanice come to be, Manannan was to take the male child and raise that child, but not get too close.  That wording "don't get too close" further implies that Manannan has a penchant for growing attached to his charges, and this probably stems from him growing attached to Valanice when she was his charge.

The remainder of your post is based solely on taking the cutscene at face value and that it is exactly what it is presented to be, that Manannan is Valanice's father.  Does that also mean that Manannan is Alexander's father?  After all, there is a cutscene in Episode 2 where Manannan refers to Alexander as "his son".  There is a lot of subtlety in the writing here (a great credit to Katie and Cez's writing talent) that requires one to read behind the lines.  To see what is presented and look beyond to see the truth of what is being presented.

It is possible that it is exactly what it looks like, that Valanice is Manannan's daughter.  However.... I wouldn't be comfortable making a bet on that outcome...
 
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Offline Cez

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2011, 05:45:57 AM »
All these things will be explained in due time, and some of them already have an explanation, especially if you look closely.

For example, The chess thing. Well, Shadrack is standing next to Manannan in that cutscene 20 years ago, isn't he?

Valanice is Manannan's daughter, that's for sure. To answer Baggin's question, You like quoting lines a lot, and there are lines in that cutscene with Manannan/Valanice that should give you a very good idea of what happened.

Alex casting spell. The guy can read, so he obviously got an education from Manannan. But I'll cut this one short because talking more would be spoiling.

And for every other point, pay more attention to the story. A lot has been revealed already. And sometimes, it's not very subtle :)

Good to see you around again, Dave. You've been missed.

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Sir Perceval of Daventry

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2011, 06:10:42 AM »
All these things will be explained in due time, and some of them already have an explanation, especially if you look closely.

For example, The chess thing. Well, Shadrack is standing next to Manannan in that cutscene 20 years ago, isn't he?

Valanice is Manannan's daughter, that's for sure. To answer Baggin's question, You like quoting lines a lot, and there are lines in that cutscene with Manannan/Valanice that should give you a very good idea of what happened.

Alex casting spell. The guy can read, so he obviously got an education from Manannan. But I'll cut this one short because talking more would be spoiling.

And for every other point, pay more attention to the story. A lot has been revealed already. And sometimes, it's not very subtle :)

Good to see you around again, Dave. You've been missed.

Cez

I do like the idea that he is able to appear in dreams while in (what I'm guessing) is some sort of magical prison. It's very similar to the idea found in the movie Excalibur. Morgana, King Arthur's treacherous half-sister and a pupil to Merlin, imprisons Merlin in the Realm of Magic. He is forever frozen, physically--But can manifest in dreams and as sort of a spirit, and aids Arthur and brings an end to Morgana in this form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8mJwgPiarg see here if you wish.

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2011, 06:15:22 AM »
As for Mordack using the Mirror--remember the letters from Episode 2. Lolotte was in on the BCS as well, and she located the box via Rosella in KQ4. So by KQ5, discovering it's location was no longer the problem.

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Offline oberonqa

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2011, 06:29:23 AM »
All these things will be explained in due time, and some of them already have an explanation, especially if you look closely.

For example, The chess thing. Well, Shadrack is standing next to Manannan in that cutscene 20 years ago, isn't he?

Valanice is Manannan's daughter, that's for sure. To answer Baggin's question, You like quoting lines a lot, and there are lines in that cutscene with Manannan/Valanice that should give you a very good idea of what happened.

Alex casting spell. The guy can read, so he obviously got an education from Manannan. But I'll cut this one short because talking more would be spoiling.

And for every other point, pay more attention to the story. A lot has been revealed already. And sometimes, it's not very subtle :)

Good to see you around again, Dave. You've been missed.

Cez

Thanks Cez.  Glad to be back.  :)

You say Valanice is Manannan's daughter.... does that mean Valanice carries Manannan's blood in her veins (in other words, he sired her) or does that mean Manannan raised her?  There is a fine line there and I hate to split hairs about it... but as anyone who has a strained relationship with their parents can tell you, sometimes you end up with two sets of parents... the set that gave birth to you... and the set that raised and supported you.  Only one set is considered the "official" parents due to lineage and blood ties, but sometimes blood ties isn't enough.  

Given the writing, voice-acting, and animation in the key scenes in question, I can't help but wonder which one is actually the case here.  Valanice loves Manannan... that is made pretty clear.  She calls Manannan "Father" and looks to Manannan to protect her from being taken into the tower, just as a child would look to a parent to protect them from any perceived danger.  For Manannan's part, he loves Valanice.  This is made clear, like Percival pointed out, by his thoughtful and troubled facial expression after Valanice is taken away.  

The thing that makes this a case of "blood father or perceived father" boils down to Manannan's reaction to being called "Father" by Valanice.  The voice actor inflected an element of surprise at being referred to in this manner by Valanice... and if I'm not mistaken a hint of shock.  Perhaps this can be chocked up to inexperience on the part of the voice actor or the VA Director... but given the attention to detail that is present elsewhere in TSL, I doubt you (Cez), Katie, or Rich would have let a recorded take into the game unless the take in question imparted the correct emotion and tone for the lines in question.  

That being said, perhaps I'm reading too much into the delivery of the lines in question... and perhaps I'm applying elements of my own life (having a strained relationship with a parent who is still living and having a second parent, who while not a legitimate parent, supports me and is more a parent to me than the living biological one)... but it just doesn't add up in my mind.

As for Shadrack being there 23 years ago when Valanice was imprisoned in the tower.... could this be evidence that Shadrack is able to send his shadow into the world to interact with other members of the BCS but without access to his magical powers, as I suggested in a prior post?

Quote from: KatieHal
As for Mordack using the Mirror--remember the letters from Episode 2. Lolotte was in on the BCS as well, and she located the box via Rosella in KQ4. So by KQ5, discovering it's location was no longer the problem.

Ah but therein lies a slight problem.  Lolotte discovered the location of the box via Rosella in KQ4... but the BCS doesn't know that Rosella put the box back into the crypt after she shot Lolotte with Cupid's Arrow and killed her.  For all the BCS knows, Rosella gave the box to Genesta and she hid it somewhere else.  The BCS has no way of knowing the box is back in the crypt... so there would still be a legitimate need for the BCS to use the Mirror.  They can't even safety assume the box is back in the crypt, as they wouldn't know enough about Rosella's personality and/or character to make an educated guess that she would put the box back where she found it.

Though I did forget the letters from episode 2 that confirm Lolotte's membership in the BCS.  <<sheepish grin>>  :)
 
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Offline KatieHal

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2011, 07:22:41 AM »
A lot of your points/questions will be answered in later episodes, Dave, so unfortunately I can't into too much detail here. But as Cez has confirmed this much already, yes, we mean he's her father by blood--but the fact that she refers to other people as her parents first is not to be ignored either.

As for Lolotte: well, it's not likely Alhazred was the only one with a magic letter box. ;) But KQ4 did still take place in a day--so any information that Lolotte would've shared before her death would still have been limited, and while Rosella locked the box back up before anyone showed up, I'd say it's fair to assume that Lolotte at least got word out of where it was found to begin with.

No worries on not remembering the letters--if nothing else, it gives us an idea of what we should be sure to include in the 'previously on' segements in the future, since they are rather important!

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2011, 07:34:19 AM »
It's good to see people speculating... :)

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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2011, 07:37:05 AM »
I thought I felt the urge to speculate about TSL's plot, but it turned out to just be gas.

Offline Baggins

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2011, 01:59:07 AM »
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Valanice is Manannan's daughter, that's for sure. To answer Baggin's question, You like quoting lines a lot, and there are lines in that cutscene with Manannan/Valanice that should give you a very good idea of what happened.
Thank you, I'll probably understand it better when I get that far. I may just be misundertanding Percival's post.

(Posted on: February 23, 2011, 02:54:38 PM)


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There is no evidence in official cannon (read: the games... not the Companion.... sorry Baggins) that suggests that Mordack was acting under Shadrack's orders.  He was simply trying to get Alexander to reverse the Cat Cookie spell/curse he cast on Manannan.  Mordack's only official BCS business in KQ5 was keeping/taking care of Cassima.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, not even the Companion has some convoluted explanation tieing Mordack to Shadrack, and the kidnapping of the Royal Family.

Infact, really the only source that even connects Shadrack to Mordack in any way is KQ6, and its over a game of chess!

The only connection all sources share is Abdul Alhazred's direct connection to Mordack mentioned in KQ5 and KQ6, over Cassima's kidnapping. But that's only Alhazred to Mordack, not some strong Shadrack to Mordack connection.

KQ5 only connects Mordack to Manannan as siblings. It's the fact that Mordack is hoping to cure his brother is the whole official motive behind the plot (which is the only thing said about the matter in any official sources actually).

Hell, if you go back to KQ6 information only, Shadrack's involvement is limited at most. In KQ6 the whole plan to capture Land of the Green Isles was Abdul Alhazred's idea, and his idea only. Shadrack had no involvement, but he was interested in hearing Alhazred's plans. There is nothing to suggest that Shadrack is the leader of their little group, but simply just another member BCS (infact that's likely the reason why the fan game, KQ2RTS created the Father as the leader of the group instead).

It was only the Companion that suggested Shadrack had a much deeper involvement, and that it may have been Shadrack's plans. Which if you are ignoring the Companion should have no relevance to you, anyways.

P.S. Cannons go boom! Canon does not.

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As for Hagatha's involvement in KQ2, ever hear the old saying "there's no such thing as a free lunch?"  Hagatha had to make a good show of impeding Graham's progress in Kolyma so as to avoid arousing Graham's suspicions.  If she truly was interested in stopping Graham, all she really had to do was push him into the poisoned moat surrounding Dracula's castle.  As it currently stands, she is more of a minor inconvenience in KQ2... she does not truly stand in Graham's way, but she doesn't make it too obvious that she's not standing in Graham's way.

BTW, I'm not sure what KQ2 you are referring to, but in the canon version of the game, Hagatha doesn't do anything to "impede" Graham's progress in Kolyma.

She has next to no role in that game at all! She doesn't give any show really... I wouldn't count stirring the cannibal pot, or chasing after Graham, any show at all. Besides Graham can be immune to her, if he encountered the fairy.

The only thing that ties her into KQ2 story at all, is a brief reference in the KQ2 manual, and the 'little old lady' at the antique shop, explaining that Hagatha stole her nightengale if you talk to her. But none of that really "impedes" Graham's progress directly (Graham can get the magic lamp by trading away some of the Sapphire Jewels).

To be fair the only thing that really tied her into direct role with other villains was the Companion, when it made her Manannan and Mordack's sister. Something that Roberta herself denied later on (suggesting it was never her intent), but the other Sierra producers acknowledged in the King's Question's game.



Seriously when it comes down to it, the only people who try to create convoluted connections between all the villains in the KQ series, are the fans in their fan games and fan fiction.

The Companion connects some of the villains to a lesser extent but it only connects through smaller groups of villains. I.E. the Companion connects Hagatha, Mordack, and Manannan as a group, it connects Manannan and the Sorcerer/Enchanter/Wizard as one group, it connects Mordack and Alhazred together as a group (suggesting that Mordack was Alhazred's master), and it connects Shadrack and Alhazred together as another group, but none of those smaller groups are tied together directly.

No official source has ever connected Malicia or Lolotte to any other villain in the game series. Not even Lolotte is connected to Malicia in any source (not even the game developer notes that were reprinted in the various official hintbooks). Infact those same notes specifically seperate Lolotte and Malicia as separate groups.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 02:32:32 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Enchantermon

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2011, 01:11:13 PM »
BTW, I'm not sure what KQ2 you are referring to, but in the canon version of the game, Hagatha doesn't do anything to "impede" Graham's progress in Kolyma.

She has next to no role in that game at all! She doesn't give any show really... I wouldn't count stirring the cannibal pot, or chasing after Graham, any show at all. Besides Graham can be immune to her, if he encountered the fairy.
I dunno, I would think that killing Graham and eating him would qualify as impeding his progress..... :P
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Offline Arkillian

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2011, 01:37:59 PM »
BTW, I'm not sure what KQ2 you are referring to, but in the canon version of the game, Hagatha doesn't do anything to "impede" Graham's progress in Kolyma.

She has next to no role in that game at all! She doesn't give any show really... I wouldn't count stirring the cannibal pot, or chasing after Graham, any show at all. Besides Graham can be immune to her, if he encountered the fairy.
I dunno, I would think that killing Graham and eating him would qualify as impeding his progress..... :P

Lol.


Offline Baggins

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2011, 02:30:10 PM »
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I dunno, I would think that killing Graham and eating him would qualify as impeding his progress.....

Two thumbs up!

Although I suppose being eaten, would probably prevent Graham's suspicions from being aroused in a literal sort of way?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 02:34:10 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg
 

anything