Author Topic: Plot-holes (spoilers)  (Read 34745 times)

Offline Enchantermon

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2011, 11:49:38 PM »
Indeed. Being eaten makes it hard to do a very large number of things.
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Offline glottal

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2011, 01:19:49 AM »
I always thought that it was a plot hole in the original KQ3 that Alexander was treated like a slave, had no contact with the world beyond Mannanan's house *yet* he was literate.  If Mannanan were really serious about making sure that Alexander wouldn't be able to oppose him, he should have kept him illiterate.  It makes sense that if Mannanan either educated Alexander or let him be educated by someone/something else, that he did not intend to keep Alexander a slave forever.

Offline Baggins

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2011, 01:28:53 AM »
Ya, the Companion, and some of the manuals touched on that a bit, giving their own explanation. They stated that he hated his slaves being ignorant (he hated ignorance in general). So he taught them how to read, but forbid them read anything having to do with magic and spellbooks. He chose specifically what his slaves were allowed to read.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Arkillian

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2011, 01:29:30 AM »
Yeah, but I think Manannan wanted to be around someone slightly intelligent. Besides, he kept Alexander on a short leash. Could you imagine Manannan having an illiterate person around? He would've killed them so fast.

What I don't get is Manannan every 18 years stealing a baby and raising it just so it can be his slave for 13 or so years :/ That's alot of responsibility.


Offline glottal

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2011, 01:38:57 AM »
Yeah, I can see it being convenient for Mannanan having a slave who can read a cookbook.  Actually, I suspect Mannanan would have a magic book lying around that can teach people to read, so that he wouldn't have to go through the bother of doing the teaching himself.

As for the deal with kidnapping babies every 18 years or so for 13 years of slavehood ... it does sort of make sense if it was the responsibility of the previous slave to raise the replacement ... maybe that's how Alexander found out about the killing slaves at 18 business (it's what happened to the boy who raised him) ... in which case Mannanan not giving Alexander a replacement to raise would indicate that he wasn't going to kill him in the TSL timeline.

Offline Baggins

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2011, 01:40:19 AM »
They never explain how he teaches his slaves. But its suggested he always picks up a new one, after he offed the previous one.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Arkillian

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2011, 01:45:25 AM »
Why didn't he have a new one by KQ3 then? Alexander was about to turn 18. He had alot of teaching to do.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 01:58:56 AM by Arkillian »


Offline Baggins

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2011, 01:53:41 AM »
Ya ark, exactly. In the official canon, he would have offed Alex and then kidnapped another baby.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 02:05:07 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Arkillian

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2011, 01:59:29 AM »
Hurp Durp- I meant 18. Typed 13. It must be my bed time again XD


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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2011, 02:01:53 AM »
They never explain how he teaches his slaves. But its suggested he always picks up a new one, after he offed the previous one.

In the manual, doesn't it say he could conjure spirits and the like? Couldn't he have conjured some creature to teach Alex? He could've even taught his slaves himself, I don't see why not.

Offline Baggins

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2011, 02:08:48 AM »
Yes he could of but it also says he doesn't like spirit Helpers. Dificult to control. Too unpredictable, a bit mischievous. A bit against his more serious personality.

So much easier to off boys who misbehave.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 02:11:01 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline glottal

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2011, 02:11:37 AM »
Well if he could conjure spirits to teach and raise his slaves, then getting a replacement every 18 years would not be a big deal ... but then he's be living 5 years without a slave, and if spirits or whatever did the housework in that time, then why did he need a slave at all?  For entertainment, maybe, but not for practical reasons.

My point is that even the canon version is a bit far-fetched, and *by this standard* the TSL adjustments aren't far-fetched at all.

Offline Arkillian

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2011, 02:16:05 AM »
Heh- I think that Manannan enjoyed the slaves company as a kind of a Schadenfreude. He may not like his slaves, but he enjoys having someone there to punish when he feels like it :/ And if you teach someone from a baby, that become their way of life. I saw a documentary about how circus people chain up baby elephants with heavy link chain so that by the time they're adults, they know that anything around their foot is impossible to break, even if it's a rope.

It's really sad.


Offline Baggins

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2011, 02:17:45 AM »
Let's be fair his slaves never do that good of a job keeping the house clean. Manan just enjoys tormenting the kiddies. Almost everything is dusty, and Alex does everything half-heartedly.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Arkillian

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2011, 02:27:22 AM »
Let's be fair his slaves never do that good of a job keeping the house clean. Manan just enjoys tormenting the kiddies. Almost everything is dusty, and Alex does everything half-heartedly.

You can say that again. I think he shifts the dust from one spot to another... besides leaving big bald spots. I should teach that boy a few lessons on house keeping :/


Offline Nilan8888

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2011, 08:27:19 PM »
1) If you're Shadrack, the evil leader of an evil organization, would you really want someone on your team who isn't totally evil--who has something of a heart? Wouldn't it just be a wiser decision to send Alex to someone who doesn't have these feelings? Moreover, would you place somene who is incredibly important to your plans under this man's care and instruct him to act even more evil and teach him Dark Magic? He's already suffering from what could turn into divided loyalties.


Shadrack may not exactly have a choice in the matter. Mannanan HAS come through in this instance, and he might be the only one powerful enough or capable enough to actually teach Alexander what Sharack wants him to be taught. Or Mannan might be the only one with the knowledge of what Shadrack wants.

What's more, Shadrack might possibly be preparing for Mannanan to turn on him. And Mannanan might in turn know that Shadrack is expecting this. They might need one another for only a period of time.

I would not characterize this as a plot hole, since reasons may be yet forthcoming.



2) Manannan is told not to treat Alexander kindly so that he (Manny) doesn't have "second thoughts". That doesn't make sense. If you put a little child into the hands of Manannan, someone who isn't totally evil, and this child is his own grandsn, wouldn't treating them even worse than you treated your daughter (whipping him, for example)--which obviously bothers Manny--Wouldn't treating Alex so horribly make Manannan feel more confused about his feelings? Blood is blood.


Again, Shadrack might NEED to send him to Mannanan, as opposed to say, Hagatha.

Not only that, but wouldn't treating Alexander horribly make him less inclined to join your cause? They seem to want him to join the BCS' cause or at the very least Dark Magic, so...wouldn't Manny treating him kindly actually make Alex more inclined to join them?

That's a presumption that they actually want Alexander to join BCS at this point. They may just want him to learn, and be corrupted by, the Dark Arts. As Hamlet says, "Nay Madam I know not 'seems' " -- that they might SEEM to want something does not mean that's actually what they want.

3) Manannan is told to teach Alex the Dark Arts. Yet we never see him doing this, and in fact, if Alexander is in posession of ANY of Manannan's magical items, or happens to find his way into Manannan's laboratory, Manny kills him. In fact, hiding such items is a key part of the gameplay of KQ3. Killing him if he happens to stumble onto some magical spells doesn't seem to be a good way to introduce him to magic. Also, in KQ5, Alexander explains he ACCIDENTALLY stumbled onto some magic spells--He makes no mention of being taught magic.

Mannanan, because of his mixed feelings, might never have taught Alex Dark Arts, or been putting it off until he was 18. And for various reasons, maybe even contemplated killing Alexander instead of teaching him either to betray Shadrack, or because maybe he was starting to think it was better off for the boy anyway

So, let me propose a situation -- keep in mind I'm in no way associated with TSL -- Shadrack and Mannanan sort of have this "Sith-like" relationship.Shadrack is Mannanan's superior. Shadrack knows this balance does not sit well with Mannanan, and Mannanan in turn knows Shadrack is aware of this.

BUT: Shadrack is imprisoned. He needs Mannanan, in a way he does not need, say, Hagatha. So it's not a gesture of trust in assigning Mannanan this mission: Manny's the only one that can DO it, or do it right.

Mannanan, for his part, is evil but is perhaps not entirely without emotion or on board with the final goal Shadrack is working towards. He has previously had slave boys who he... or someone BCS related... killed when they were 18. After capturing the boy, Mannanan is not certain he wants to go through with this: maybe he knows enough to realize that teaching Alex could condemn him to a fate worse than death if he can guess what Shadrack has planned... or perhaps it would condemn the world to great suffering... or it would cement Shadrack as forever MAnnanan's superior where at least now with Shadrack imprisoned, Mannanan has some leverage of personal power.


For this or any other reason that could be articulated later, Mannanan instead chooses to wait. Because all his boys were eliminated at 18, that becomes the convenient time of decision. KQIII then takes place somewhere around the lead-up to Alexander's 18th birthday. At this time Mannanan is TRULY UNDECIDED about everything, and is susveptible to making any particular decision -- if Alexander angers him in the course of KQIII, that's what he seizes upon and makes his decision right there: "Dammit, that boy is trying to leave the house... kill him, it's better off this way anyway". Or: "Dammit, that boy didn't do that chore I assigned: kill him, it's better off this way anyway", etc.

If the situation were such that a 'moral' decision from a certain POV could be made in killing Alexander -- a justification -- I think that's all we'd need. And all that would have to be established is for Mannanan to think that whatever Shadrack has planned for Alex would be worse than the instant death Manny can provide.


4) Manannan was apparently tasked with stopping Graham from getting the Magic Mirror. I'm guessing that means Manannan was the wandering enchanter in KQ1--No one actively tries to stop Graham from getting the Mirror, except the Dragon (and he's cowed down very easily). Why didn't they use the Mirror when Mordack kidnapped the Royal Family and captured the castle in KQ5? Why didn't Manannan just go into the Castle and steal it while Graham was away from Daventry to rescue Valanice during KQ2?

From what the scene says, Shadrack actively changes the plan. I don't know what the KQ1 setup was, but Mannanan -- or Mordack -- might have set up that Dragon. I'd think setting up a Dragon to stop someone from getting a mirror is doing a good enough job: that's arguable a more secure solution than guarding it yourself.

As has been said, by KQ4, they know the location of the box. Starting from that scene 23 years ago in that conversation with Mordack, the plan is no longer to retain the Magic Mirror, but allow Graham to have it: thus, it sets in motion that the intro to KQ2 is actually a trap with wide-ranging ramifications. So from the start of KQ2 onward, Shadrack is trying a different plan of action. For Manny to steal the mirror back at that point is counter to the new plan.

What's more, Mordack has been completely out of the picture in what we've seen so far. We don't know how much Mordack was involved in any of this planning. Morsack might not even KNOW about the mirror, or a lot of what's going on (Mordack is stated to be 'more powerful' than Mannanan, but does that mean in terms of actual knowledge and ability, or because Mordack had more powerful wands and 'toys'?).


I'm presuming that the Sorceror who tricked Edward out of the Mirror in the first place was a member of the BCS. Which would mean in the decades before and up to KQ1, it was in their possession. Leaving them decades to use it to find Pandora's Box--why didn't they find it anytime in this period? We're shown even though Shadrack is apparently in some sort of prison, he is able to leave his prison at least for brief times by the time of KQ2, why couldn't they just have Shadrack do a quick look into it in this period?


The mirror might have its own rules -- the BCS might have been using it unsucessfully for decades with the mirror giving up squat... maybe the very reason Shadrack tried to go a different route.

Also, Shadrack specifically mentions he is using a "sending". To me that says he is not REALLY there, just an incorpreal image of him is.


Why didn't he or a minion of his come to Graham between KQ2 and KQ3 under the guise of helping Graham make the Mirror unclouded and then abscond with it?

Again, the scene laid out that they now want Graham to have the mirror.


Moreover, if they needed the Mirror in their posession to get Pandora's Box, how were they able to know where the Box was in KQ4, when the Mirror was safely in Graham's possession?


To my understanding, they don't. The deal in KQ4 is that Lollotte tells Rosella to find the Box. She doesn't give any hints to where it is.

This could mean MANY things:

1. The BCS has an elaborate plan to have Rosella find Pandora's Box, and causes Graham to get sick to put this into effect. Rosella unwittingly foils this plan, although she finds the box (this is, however, unlikely -- why did Rosella have to find it? It was just in a crypt that anyone could have opened).

2. The BCS never found out where the Box was, and they were shut out of KQ4 altogether: Lolotte is just some fairy who DOES know the Box is in Tamir and she herself doesn't know about the BCS.

3. The BCS knew that the Box was in Tamir, but little else. they put Lollotte in charge of finding it, but she can't get it done. This is a bit odd though, because you'd think they'd all be looking for it at the same time and have torn Tamir apart.

4. Lolotte is part of the BCS. Somehow she found out the box was located in Tamir. She doesn't share this information with any of the other BCS members, and moves to Tamir under the auspices that she decided to live there. Meanwhile, she's planning to backstab everyone and claim the box for her own and usurp at least Mannanan, or even Shadrack. Unfortunately Lolotte was never able to find it, and when Rosella shows up, decided to use her. Bad move, Lolotte.

Scenario #4 is probably the best one.


5) Shadrack wants Graham and Valanice to get together, and even sets the events of KQ2 in motion it would seem. In fact, he hopes that they have offspring. If Hagatha is part of the BCS and Graham and Valanice having kids was (possibly) instrumental to Shadrack's return to power, why does Hagatha try to catch and eat Graham? Wouldn't that be counter-productive to Graham rescuing Valanice and having children with her?

There's nothing in that scene showing that Hagatha is privy to that part of the plan. Remember, we don't know what each member is aware of. All we do know is that Shadrack and Mannanan seem to know everything that's going on, but they're the only ones so far.


6) Shadrack, in his letter to Abdul Alhazred in KQ6, mentions that Mordack was a "ninny at chess"--implying he had played it with him at least more than once. If Shadrack can only leave his prison briefly, how is he able to spend his precious and very evil time playing games of Chess with Mordack? Why is he wasting his time in this way? How is he able to send dozens of letters to Alhazred?

Again, this presumes Shadrack is actually leaving his prison when you see him. And Shadrack is apparently able to send messages through this prison. That he can do this is not a plot hole unless we then see the prison should be impossible to send messages through.

7) Not a plot hole exactly, but...Valanice is Manannan's daughter, and thus Mordack's niece. Yet in KQ5, Mordack threatens to feed the Royal Family to Manannan, starting with Valanice...Thus Manny would be eating his own daughter. A little freaky, no? And isn't Valanice important to all of this? Why kill her off?


Firstly, they might not be brothers in the literal sense. Shadrack refers to Mannanan as a brother. Mordack might have a similar 'brother' relationship: they're just members of the Silver Cloak society.

Plus, even if they ARE actual brothers, Mordack might not be in on a lot of the scheme. Or maybe he does, and doesn't care. But I'd guess that he doesn't... someone being a 'ninny at chess' suggests to me that Mordack's position in this was more of a pawn.


I'm assuming they were involved in KQ6 as well, related somehow to the Royal Family. How would they know Alexander would fall in love with Cassima?


I'm not sure they were involved in that at all. I think the plan there was just literal. Alexander's entry into the Green Isles was completely unexpected. In fact, I would think that since Manny got offed in KQIII, command and control for the Black Cloak Society has been in turmoil: they lost their local commander, and there doesn't seem to be agreement on who's in charge. They key pieces of the plan are in place, and this story appears to begin as someone is starting to put them at last into motion.

But I think it's fair to say that they've suffered a LOT of setbacks since the onset of KQ3. KQ1 had them set back and adopting a new plan. KQ2 is actually going according the plan of the BCS. Alexander then FOILS that plan (though Manny helps by not following through), and to me it seems that since that time the BCS has been just been infighting and getting wrapped up in their own petty schemes.

Offline Baggins

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2011, 01:39:51 PM »
Here's an inconsistency for you.

Ok, in TSL its said that Shadrack is sealed away in the box right? He can only manifest himself for short periods of time...

Well I was going back through KQ6 script, and it states that Abdul Alhazred had thought about sending Cassima directly to Shadrack, but chose not to because he didn't want the same thing happening to him that happened to Mordack.

Quote
Well, on to it now. I'd send her to you, but as you know, I had no luck in doing so with Mordack.-Abdul's letter (KQ6)

If Shadrack is trapped in a box (one that Black Cloaks aren't sure of its location), how would Abdul Alhazred have been able to send Cassima to Shadrack? Why would Abdul be worrying about her being his destruction if he had sent her? Ooops?

Sounds to me this is even worse plothole/inconsistency than the Shadrack wasting his limited time during manifestations in order to play chess with Mordack...
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 01:58:01 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Cez

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2011, 02:07:01 PM »
Shadrack is not inside the Box. There's a lot of back story that hasn't been told yet.

And yes, Abdul could have sent Cassima to Shadrack. That would have been very, very cruel to do, also very hard, but not impossible.

Also, Shadrack leaving to play chess was not a waste of time. You can consider chess to be a very good way to prove his mental skills outside of his prison --what that prison is, you have yet to see, but it's already been blatantly told at one point in ep2. Chess was simple task in which he needed to focus.

But you guys need to stop calling things plotholes until you've had access to the full story. I'm sure there will be angles that escape us at the end, but we have thought a lot about this story.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 02:08:53 PM by Cez »


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Offline Baggins

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2011, 02:11:53 PM »
I thought it was said in Episode 2 that the Pandora's Box and Zodia Stone were one and the same thing?

I though its been suggesting that Shadrack is trapped there, along with the Shadows?
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Arkillian

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Re: Plot-holes (spoilers)
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2011, 02:16:15 PM »
Pandora's box doesn't have to be the key to Shadrack's release. It could be his power insteed or some weapon he uses, or something else.

Again- it's not a plot hole till the story has finished. Right now, it's a plot hook. :/


 

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