Author Topic: Plot-holes (spoilers) (Read 39377 times)

Arkillian · « **Reply #60 on:** March 30, 2011, 05:34:22 PM »

Actually, I agree with Lambonius here. Manannan may have had reasons for killing Alexander which are no longer strictly what we thought they were, but one thing is certain, he was going to kill him on his 18th birthday for SOME reason. In KQ3 we assume it's because he did so to all of his slaves. This may 'no longer be the case', but I'd be disappointed if TSL decide that it wasn't Manannan's intention whether it be willing or not. I'd buy it if he was going to unwillingly. I mean, you're not THAT much of an ass to someone that you like in any way. Just cause he's Valanice's son, doesn't make him necessarily special. It could be like Snape and Harry Potter. A sort of 'It's my duty to do this but I still hate you' thing.

Damar · « **Reply #61 on:** April 01, 2011, 08:32:03 AM »

I suspect that whether someone accepts the explanation that Manannan wasn't really going to kill Alexander depends entirely on whether they accept the plot of TSL. If someone likes the plot a lot, I think they'll give that explanation the benefit of the doubt. If someone doesn't like the plot as much or doesn't see it as being in the spirit of King's Quest, then they'll call foul on that explanation.

Personally I haven't decided yet. On a rational level I don't buy for a second that Manannan wasn't really out for blood. Even without the manual it's strongly implied that Manannan will put you down if you step out of line (like when you take the wand.) If the plot of TSL is engaging and immersive, however, then that reworking of the past won't really matter to me. It will just be a little thing that you accept so that the plot moves on.

Arkillian · « **Reply #62 on:** April 01, 2011, 05:35:28 PM »

This is true. If it goes against King's Quest canon in my eyes, I'll just seperate it from the canon. I mean gesh- it's a FAN GAME. Why can't a few rules be broken? I see enough fan art / comics/ fics to know that ANYTHING goes in a story.

I guess then I'd be dissapointed if they don't make it believable. The cut scene with Manannan and Alexander where he's all 'You want to be my partner in crime' is believable cause the death threats could be to raise Alexander's anger and assertiveness- I looked at it as more of a taunt, but I guess it could be the truth. To make him all flowers and 'I never meant to hurt you' though... That I'd actually object to. I'd have to really separate it from canon then. Manannan is evil. Evil intent and stuff. I don't want to like him. Pity I guess is ok, but not like. He'll likely have some good left in him, but I guess what I mean is that I don't want to like him. THAT was annoy me.

KatieHal · « **Reply #63 on:** April 01, 2011, 07:14:34 PM »

Whatever else we may get into with him, Mannanan is a bad person. He still murdered a lot of other boys (as Alex points out).

Lambonius · « **Reply #64 on:** April 02, 2011, 08:56:18 AM »

It'll definitely be interesting to see whether or not Darth Manannan can ultimately redeem himself by saving Luke Valanice before the end.

KatieHal · « **Reply #65 on:** April 02, 2011, 09:03:31 AM »

Okay, who leaked Valanice's lightsaber fight scene?!

dark-daventry · « **Reply #66 on:** April 02, 2011, 09:30:11 AM »

Quote from: KatieHal on April 02, 2011, 09:03:31 AM

Okay, who leaked Valanice's lightsaber fight scene?!

Sorry. I just couldn't hold it in!

Cez · « **Reply #67 on:** April 02, 2011, 11:03:55 AM »

Watch it with Valanice!!! She can kick some serious ass!

http://www.postudios.com/temp/KickassValanice.avi

KatieHal · « **Reply #68 on:** April 02, 2011, 11:06:56 AM »

haha! I remember that from a few years back. I see we still didn't give her any real legs under that dress, lol.

kindofdoon · « **Reply #69 on:** April 03, 2011, 10:53:30 AM »

Quote from: Cez on April 02, 2011, 11:03:55 AM

Watch it with Valanice!!! She can kick some serious ass!

http://www.postudios.com/temp/KickassValanice.avi

Woah, this is awesome! Is it going to be in the game?

Enchantermon · « **Reply #70 on:** April 03, 2011, 12:44:24 PM »

Valanice Norris: Daventry Ranger.

Also, I can't watch that without thinking of this.

Arkillian · « **Reply #71 on:** April 03, 2011, 05:31:41 PM »

Quote from: Lambonius on April 02, 2011, 08:56:18 AM

It'll definitely be interesting to see whether or not Darth Manannan can ultimately redeem himself by saving Luke Valanice before the end.

Does this mean that the Black Cloaks have cookies?

crayauchtin · « **Reply #72 on:** April 04, 2011, 03:45:04 PM »

Quote from: KatieHal on April 01, 2011, 07:14:34 PM

Whatever else we may get into with him, Mannanan is a bad person. He still murdered a lot of other boys (as Alex points out).

That's what I'm saying. In the original KQ3, the only place it's really stated that Manannan will kill Alexander is in hints to the player -- which isn't canon because in canon there's not a player controlling Alexander. What *is* canon is that Manannan killed his other slaves, and that hasn't been changed. It also may (and should) lead Alexander to believe that Manannan was going to kill him. That belief is the driving force of his need to escape in KQ3, but a belief can be false even in the world of King's Quest.

Lambonius · « **Reply #73 on:** April 04, 2011, 06:05:10 PM »

Quote from: crayauchtin on April 04, 2011, 03:45:04 PM

which isn't canon because in canon there's not a player controlling Alexander.

So uh...by that logic, none of the actual King's Quest GAMES are canon.

...

You've lost me.

KatieHal · « **Reply #74 on:** April 04, 2011, 07:36:34 PM »

Basically, player knowledge does not equal character knowledge, would be what Cray (and this particular plot point) is getting at.

Lambonius · « **Reply #75 on:** April 04, 2011, 11:54:43 PM »

Quote from: KatieHal on April 04, 2011, 07:36:34 PM

Basically, player knowledge does not equal character knowledge, would be what Cray (and this particular plot point) is getting at.

I'm sorry, but this logic is incredibly flawed.

These are not novels. They are GAMES. The player and the ego character are one and the same for the duration of the experience, ESPECIALLY in games 1 through 4, where the game's narrations are entirely written in second person. As a former English student, you of all people should understand this.

The only way to really argue otherwise is to go to a literary source like the Companion, which rewrites the stories of the GAMES in third person, which you guys already have stated you didn't want to use as a reliable source (since it so inconveniently contradicts the aforementioned plot contrivance.)

Cez · « **Reply #76 on:** April 05, 2011, 01:02:36 AM »

I still say Valanice kicks ass!

KatieHal · « **Reply #77 on:** April 05, 2011, 05:33:44 AM »

YMMV, Lamb. We know you're not a fan of that plot twist, or some others, but it's not changing and we've been over our decision to go in that direction before, so I'm not getting into a debate about it again.

Arkillian · « **Reply #78 on:** April 05, 2011, 07:17:53 AM »

Lamb is right though. What the player knows is what Gwydion is experiencing and knows. Since we don't get cut scenes like in KQ6 where there is plot device happening that the main character doesn't see but we do, everything that is announced in game is canon. Granted, only the perfect outcome is the canon storyline, but the best that you could argue is that Manannan might change his mind about killing him over the years to keep discipline up and to scare Alexander or something like that. Alexander picks up dark magic pretty quick though so who knows. Maybe Manannan does teach him more than reading and writing cause he knows what alot of the ingredients look like. Likely he talks to Alexander about the outside world sometimes. The possibility of AGDi's Kings Quest 3 is a highly likely story, but I also found it was also a VERY safe one. Safe is nice cause new stuff was added, but a new piece of edge to a story is more interesting for me. I like that TSL it finding a twist to it, but I'd like to hope that it doesn't deviate too far from what we thought was canon. A 'There's more to it' is interesting. Telling us that we assumed wrong in the original game though and...

We shall see though. I want to continue hating Manannan for what he did to Alexander. I don't wish to pity him directly for anything to do with Alexander at all. If you wish to make us feel sympathy for his relationship with Valanice however, that I will be very interested in

KatieHal · « **Reply #79 on:** April 05, 2011, 07:43:04 AM »

Okay, I'll put it this way, then:

The player knows, thanks to the manual, why Manannan hates humans and how he fears what he once saw as his ultimate end. Do we expect that Gwydion knows this because we do? No, of course not.

Likewise, in the original game, you never get confirmation in-game of Manannan's plans (unless he DOES kill you, which, obviously, didn't happen since Alex lives on). So really we've already added to what Alex knows with his confirmation of knowing Manannan killed previous slaves. There are messages that give you relay Alex/Gwydion's suspicions that his master has some vile plans for him, but unless there's a message I've completely forgotten or never found, you, as the player/as Gwydion are never actually TOLD that he knows specifically that Manannan has killed before and plans to kill him. Most if not all of that information is in the manual, not the game.

So, that's what I mean by player knowledge does not equal character knowledge.

Author Topic: Plot-holes (spoilers) (Read 39377 times)

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