Author Topic: Spikey Hair & Held Hands  (Read 38032 times)

Sir Perceval of Daventry

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Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« on: March 05, 2011, 12:34:36 AM »
A few questions:

1) Alex has been in a coma for a little over a day or so by the end of Episode 3, yet his hair is still as spikey as when he is awake; In fact, it's not even slightly different. How is this possible? Does Cassima gel his hair for him while he's sleeping; if so, why? Is his stylishness that important while he's asleep?

2) Why were Alex and Rosella put in their bed holding hands? It comes off a bit...well...freaky. They fall down comatose in different locations so it's not like they happened to fall that way, so did someone in the Castle think it would be a funny, sick joke to position them in such a way?

3) Both of the previous weddings in the KQ series have taken place in the homeland of one of the people getting married. However, in the context of the game itself, there's never any clear reason given as to why Rosella and Edgar are married in The Land of the Green Isles and not Daventry (Rosella's homeland) or Etheria (Edgar's homeland). It's clear that the game started off in the Green Isles to capitalize on the nostalgia for KQ6, but there's never any in-universe explanation for Rosella and Edgar getting married in the Green Isles in the game itself.  The only explanation given by the team (outside of the game) is that Rosella wanted to get married in the Green Isles because she loved the garden on the Castle of the Crown and was invited by Cassima to get married there (again, this is not mentioned in any of the episodes released so far).

Logically, wouldn't Graham, Alexander, et al want to visit Etheria? They've already been to one wedding in the Green Isles.

 Also, wouldn't holding the wedding in Etheria have suited the plot better--After all, a large part of the plot, indeed, the very quest itself, deals with Graham having to save Alex & Rosella, and the only way he can save them, is by him going into their dreams...And the weaver of Dreams himself, and his sister Mab (the Lady of Dreams) both reside in Etheria.

Not only that, but going to Etheria would open up PLENTY of new opportunities for exploration. Unlike the Green Isles, we've never seen all that much of Etheria, which would allow us to explore what would in many ways be a brand new land rather than retreading through an already seen land with some extra scenes added.

Going to Etheria would allow for totally new areas of interest without having to retcon the geography of the original games (as TSL does by adding the new town square where there wasn't one before, the new additions to the Castle of the Crown, etc)

4) Why doesn't Graham seek the aid of the Weaver of Dreams or Mab? We're told in EP 2 if I recall correctly that Graham has to go to into their dreams to save the Twins...Why doesn't he simply ask Titania to take him to Etheria?

For one, if he was taken to Etheria, he could ask the very FATES--who are Titania's aunts--for their advice, rather than the Arch Druid (I would think being as they control fate and destiny itself, they'd know more about the situation than the Arch Druid does), and also, the Weaver of Dreams is, after all, Titania's own brother. Surely, he'd help Graham if Titania asked him to?

Titania is in the Land of the Green Isles with Oberon, so all Graham would have to do is say something like: "My wife Valanice once told me about her adventures in your homeland, and that in Etheria, she met a man called the Dream Weaver, and the Arch Druid of the Isle of the Mists told me that in order to save my children, I need to seek entrance into their dreams. Do you think, good Fairy Queene, that you could take me to meet this Weaver of Dreams? Perhaps he could be of help in this dire situation."

5) The lion chained up at the top of the tower isn't seen in the flashback at the end of Episode 3. Where did it come from? If one of the BCS members put it there afterward, it wouldn't make sense -- why would the BCS want to make it even more difficult for Graham to rescue, marry, and have children with Valanice, which is what their leader wants/hopes for?

6) In the sequence in Valanice's nightmare, in Episode 3, Shadrack says to Valanice: "Back...Back to the memories which you wanted to get rid of...Back to everything you were forced to forget...Back to everything you chose to forget" The last part doesn't make sense, since Valanice doesn't CHOOSE to forget anything, her memory was erased by Manny, as Manannan tells Shadrack in the flashback at the end of the episode.

7) In KQ7, Lady Mab (the Lady of Dreams) tells Valanice that if they manage to stop the threat to Etheria (Malicia), she will send Valanice only sweet, good dreams. Where are Valanice's horrible nightmares in TSL Episode 3 coming from, then?



« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 12:38:45 AM by Sir Perceval of Daventry »

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2011, 12:36:38 AM »
Wow I'm not interested in revisiting all of those things yet again, but I will point out that you actually asked like 8 questions there.
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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2011, 12:41:03 AM »
Wow I'm not interested in revisiting all of those things yet again, but I will point out that you actually asked like 8 questions there.

I don't believe the question of why Graham doesn't seek the aid of the Weaver of Dreams, Mab or The Fates has been addressed. Nor has the question about the lion in KQ2 at Valanice's door, as well as the question about Lady Mab saying she'd only send Valanice good dreams from now on in KQ7 been addressed.

And yes, I was thinking of more questions as I went along.

Offline Cez

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2011, 03:58:30 AM »
for someone who apparently hates TSL like you say you do, you certainly spend a lot of time analyzing the story :)

Wait until the story is complete. Questions shall be answered.

However, just for fun... Why didn't the Fates help Titania and Oberon find Edgar when he was kidnapped by Lolotte? Especially if he was their niece's son? I mean, the Fates being the Fates know exactly what would happen, or where Edgar would have been, right? Why didn't they do something earlier to stop Malicia from going bad, or at least warn Titania that that would happen? especially if they were their aunt as well. Could the Fates have other reasons? At least it seems to me that would be the easier answer to not say there were big plot holes in KQ4 and KQ7.

And Alex's gel is the extra strong stuff. But..... really? That's like asking why Alexander doesn't get wet after he goes into the sea in past King's Quests.

And, also, you are welcomed to go make the game where Rosella and Edgar get married in Etherea. We chose for them to be married in the Green Isles. Oh, but wait, you probably won't be able because with the deal with Telltale probably nobody else can really be making games... which is very funny that you are so happy about that when 6 months ago you were so adamant about no specific group ever having exclusive rights to this license so that everybody could have their visions of King's Quest. I say plot hole!

:)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 05:14:21 AM by Cez »


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Offline glottal

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2011, 07:00:32 AM »
I would also like to suggest that somebody might have put Rosella's and Alex's hands together with the thought that maybe that could help them get out the trance somehow.  Desperate and clueless people come up with ideas like that.

As far as Rosella and Edgar's wedding ... maybe they couldn't agree weather to do it in Etheria or Daventry, so they decided to do it somewhere else to be fair to each others' families.

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2011, 07:55:34 AM »
*is bored so he'll answer all of these unofficially*

1) You're assuming they use modern hair care products, themselves the product of at least decades of chemistry? They use magic to alter their appearance. This might seem like a bit of "the wizard did it" but in this context, "a wizard did it" is totally sound--on top of which, in this case, it was more likely a genie. ;)


2) Why are bodies in caskets often thus positioned? Because it LOOKS peaceful. Also, something had to be done with their hands... if they were simply lying off to their sides, they'd look stiff. Any other positioning that people actually sleep in would look--and obviously would be--posed. Thus, the developers chose to pose them in what would seem the most natural/least stiff way for someone to position a sleeping body.


3) But it is explained in the Four Winds. ... ... ...and you've guessed at a reason: to capitalize on KQ6. Honestly, if you already know the answers to your own questions, you are just wasting the class's time by asking the instructor to recapitulate your own reasoning. ::)

3a. Maybe they already have visited Etheria? Maybe Rosella wanted to spend time in Etheria/Eldritch for her honeymoon and thought it would be silly to have the wedding in the same realm as the honeymoon.

3b. The obvious answer to the question of whether or not having the setting be Etheria would have aided the plot or not is "No." Do recall that we are getting a reduced version of the game and that Etheria was once going to be revisited. If they chose to set their story in the Green Isles, it is likely that this part of the whole story was originally going to be set in the Green Isles. Maybe these other issues would have been addressed in the broader strokes that we can no longer see--for instance, when we got to Etheria--but we can't know that now.  :-\ *shrugs*


4) See question #7. It's possible that since these are magically induced dreams, they are beyond Mab's and the Dream Weaver's ability to influence (likely if they wanted to help, which no doubt they would, it would entail some effort on their part to break through the spell's power. If we are to believe the hype about the Black and Silver Cloaks' powers, this would be difficult to nigh-impossible).

4a. (The Fates) Check your Greek myth. The Fates are in an awkward position: at once obedient to two higher powers, destiny itself (destiny is often assumed to be a higher more primal such as Ananke/Adrasteia (same goddess), et al. depending on the theogony at work) and Zeus (this does depend on the myth, but this is the general consensus if the myths are taken together (to some extent, I may be mixing them up with their Norse counterparts, the Norns, but whatev'... they're all just wyrd, anyway)). When they are obedient to destiny, Zeus (in this case, likely, Oberon) doesn't hold much sway.


5) This is quite simple. The BCS members have apparently (for their own reasons) wanted to build up the house of Daventry into successful gentlemen adventurers (for instance, it seems to have been important that Alexander know some magic; it seems to have been equally important that he learn this on his own without Manannan's direct assistance). You can't do that if you don't present challenges. The lion after all presents only a minor hurdle to a successfully prepared Graham (you can't even get to it without having one of two ways to handle it, IIRC). It seems to me that the BCS would likely have known this.


6) Perhaps, he means that she chose the path that included having her memory wiped when she resisted going along with the plan. I mean, come on, he's a machiavellian Xanatos-type schemer: we cannot expect his statements to not have a convoluted twisted perspective and psychology under it. "It's totes your fault that we had to erase your memory, Val-pal."


7) Magic often allows mere mortals to tread in the realms, domains, and patronages of gods. (Magic by its very nature might be considered as the power to alter the natural order built and maintained by gods.) It seems to be the case that Shadrack is responsible for the dreams.
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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2011, 09:30:16 AM »
A few questions:

1) Alex has been in a coma for a little over a day or so by the end of Episode 3, yet his hair is still as spikey as when he is awake; In fact, it's not even slightly different. How is this possible? Does Cassima gel his hair for him while he's sleeping; if so, why? Is his stylishness that important while he's asleep?

Because that what his model looks like. (Also, it's been less than a day.)

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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2011, 11:22:13 AM »
BAD!  BAD PERCIVAL!!  No pointing out TSL inconsistencies or flaws!!  BAD! BAD!!  I'm getting the newspaper!!!   :suffer:

Offline Blackthorne

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2011, 12:21:24 PM »
"A Wizard Did It."

It IS King's Quest, after all.  There ARE wizards.


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Offline Cez

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2011, 01:35:12 PM »
damn right! :)


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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2011, 01:46:33 PM »
"A Wizard Did It."

It IS King's Quest, after all.  There ARE wizards.


Bt


That was my reasoning. I mean: given the setting, which is more likely--wizard or hair gel? :P
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Offline snabbott

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2011, 02:03:33 PM »
Also, wouldn't holding the wedding in Etheria have suited the plot better--After all, a large part of the plot, indeed, the very quest itself, deals with Graham having to save Alex & Rosella, and the only way he can save them, is by him going into their dreams...And the weaver of Dreams himself, and his sister Mab (the Lady of Dreams) both reside in Etheria.
Edgar: Let's have the wedding in Etheria. That way, if some evil wizard puts you in a coma, we can go to the weaver of dreams and Mab for help!
Rosella: ???

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2011, 03:05:13 PM »
Edgar: Let's have the wedding in Etheria. That way, if some evil wizard puts you in a coma, we can go to the weaver of dreams and Mab for help!
Rosella: ???
What Percival was detailing was not an in-game rationale for having the wedding in Etheria but a design rationale for staging the wedding in Etheria based on what the writers knew about the rest of the plot.
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2011, 04:05:30 PM »
Edgar: Let's have the wedding in Etheria. That way, if some evil wizard puts you in a coma, we can go to the weaver of dreams and Mab for help!
Rosella: ???
What Percival was detailing was not an in-game rationale for having the wedding in Etheria but a design rationale for staging the wedding in Etheria based on what the writers knew about the rest of the plot.

Exactly.

Offline Cez

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2011, 04:08:22 PM »
But then again, there's the rest of the plot that nobody but the designers know about :)


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Offline Cez

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2011, 04:16:35 PM »


5) This is quite simple. The BCS members have apparently (for their own reasons) wanted to build up the house of Daventry into successful gentlemen adventurers (for instance, it seems to have been important that Alexander know some magic; it seems to have been equally important that he learn this on his own without Manannan's direct assistance). You can't do that if you don't present challenges. The lion after all presents only a minor hurdle to a successfully prepared Graham (you can't even get to it without having one of two ways to handle it, IIRC). It seems to me that the BCS would likely have known this.


See? You just have to really see into the story being shaped up. That's why I sometimes don't bother answering, because the answers are in the game. Bravo, Delling.

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2011, 04:19:41 PM »
But then again, there's the rest of the plot that nobody but the designers know about :)
This is why I've never brought up Percival's question before, because I had the same one myself. As soon as the Archdruid told me I'd be going into their dreams, I thought I was going to be off to Etheria, and was confused when I wasn't.
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Offline Cez

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2011, 04:32:41 PM »


6) Perhaps, he means that she chose the path that included having her memory wiped when she resisted going along with the plan. I mean, come on, he's a machiavellian Xanatos-type schemer: we cannot expect his statements to not have a convoluted twisted perspective and psychology under it. "It's totes your fault that we had to erase your memory, Val-pal."


Again, bravo. Shadrack's most dangerous power is his psychological attack. That's essentially how I defined him: The worse kind of trickster out there, the kind that gets into and screws up with your mind --again, as shown already twice in the game: Valanice, and the intro with Alexander/Valanice.

As for the dreams, Delling is on the good path here. Have you given it the thought that it may not be the same realm of dreams and therefore no one has domain over it but the Silver Cloaks? I could go on but I will be spoiling a lot of stuff. Why are you so obstinate in seeing holes in a plot you have no idea how it concludes?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 04:39:35 PM by Cez »


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Offline wilco64256

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2011, 04:35:45 PM »
This would be like walking out of the theater halfway through a movie complaining about how everything wasn't all thoroughly explained at that point of the film.
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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2011, 04:59:04 PM »
for someone who apparently hates TSL like you say you do, you certainly spend a lot of time analyzing the story :)

Wait until the story is complete. Questions shall be answered.

However, just for fun... Why didn't the Fates help Titania and Oberon find Edgar when he was kidnapped by Lolotte? Especially if he was their niece's son? I mean, the Fates being the Fates know exactly what would happen, or where Edgar would have been, right? Why didn't they do something earlier to stop Malicia from going bad, or at least warn Titania that that would happen? especially if they were their aunt as well. Could the Fates have other reasons? At least it seems to me that would be the easier answer to not say there were big plot holes in KQ4 and KQ7.

And Alex's gel is the extra strong stuff. But..... really? That's like asking why Alexander doesn't get wet after he goes into the sea in past King's Quests.

And, also, you are welcomed to go make the game where Rosella and Edgar get married in Etherea. We chose for them to be married in the Green Isles. Oh, but wait, you probably won't be able because with the deal with Telltale probably nobody else can really be making games... which is very funny that you are so happy about that when 6 months ago you were so adamant about no specific group ever having exclusive rights to this license so that everybody could have their visions of King's Quest. I say plot hole!

:)

I thought part of the point of this game was to FIX 'plotholes' created by the original games, to bridge the gaps, tie things together; however you choose to put it. It's kind of an infantile cop out to simply answer, "BUT THE OTHER KQ GAMES HAD PLOT HOLES TOO!" when you've basically said your game was the one which was supposed to "fix" the others or however you put it, to surpass the others, to be tighter woven and answer questions raised in the originals. You can't have your cake, and eat it too. Don't say your game is going to mend plotholes when it's creating all new ones.

You keep saying wait till the end, or wait till the next chapter; well, at the end of each episode I'm left with more questions than answers, to be frank. And more holes open as we go along.

Oh, and we don't actually see if his hair is wet or not in KQ6. He's a small VGA character who is so low-pixel that he is actually faceless. You can't use a 19 year old game's technological limitations to excuse what is clearly a design oversight on the part of a brand new game which utilizes very clear 3D graphics. Again, it's basically saying, "BUT THEY DID IT TOO!" Nu-uh. Ain't falling it for it, pal. You can only get away with THAT excuse so many times.

We'll see. Your response to someone asking very LOGICAL question the plot is "If you don't like it go, make a game yourself" which, again, is childish and infantile. I'm asking a logical question--since this game is founded upon realism and logic--a question of the plot which makes sense. Either Graham is a dummy (as you've presented poor Edgar as) or we have a plothole in the game, a horrific place in a story where even logic cannot escape. Actually, if you want the blunt truth Cez, I didn't want YOU * having the license. I didn't care if anyone else got it, t be frank. Besides, good friend, I've heard that there is an original designer working on the game, apparently, you yourself let that factoid loose somewhere?

Since we're bringing up six months ago, you intimated to me in a PM six months ago this TT deal would be basically the worst thing ever to happen. You told me I'd "wish you had gotten the license", if I recall correctly. Besides, you were hoping to get the license yourself as well as the licenses to SQ, QFG, and GK. Your OWN stated vision for a commercial KQ game was much the same as TellTales: A reboot.

Except with your reboot I shudder to think at what sort of insane story tie-ins you'd create. I have a strong feeling that TT's plot won't make Valanice be Manananna's daughter and a lying, secretive a druid or make Edgar look like a total moron, or twist the original games around and create a convoluted, mind bending storyline like yours is so far. Your game takes incredible leaps of logic and retcons the originals in ways that make AGDI's "The Father" plot look tame. It's dream logic. Where on Earth did you even get the Valanice is Manny's daughter idea from? Seriously?

Just because she had the weakest backstory of the original games doesn't mean hers automatically must be the most complex. You were going for an "epic" story with this, but complex does not equal epic. It's like cramming a whole lot of craziness in there just to baffle the audience with bull**** and pretty music. Traumatic backstories do not equal epic. I would call KQ5 or KQ7 epic and I could summarize their plot and their character motivations very easily. Can't say the same for TSL. It's a mess.

Rather than getting all childish, why don't you actually answer a question? Why sidestep it? You're the creator, why nt answer simple, logical questions? Surely the guy who wrote the plot can do that, right?

*= When I say YOU, I mean you, Cesar Bittar. None of my points, past or present, refer to Katie; I tend to think she would've written a great KQ game on her own if her Lieutenant character is anything to go by.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 05:24:19 PM by Sir Perceval of Daventry »