Author Topic: Spikey Hair & Held Hands  (Read 44150 times)

Offline Delling

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2011, 08:31:24 AM »
As for the main contents of this thread...eh, I think of it this way: I don't like pecans.  I don't eat pecans. I don't discuss pecans.  Generally I don't think about pecans.  I tend to shy away from them at all costs.  So why should I waste my time and everyone else's by going on and on about something I dislike?  Something to consider...

But I loooooooove pecans*! ..and arguing? You wanna fight about it? :P



*: caveat lector, in pecan pie :P ...so, technically, I just like pecan pie... *needs to make himself some of that* :P
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 08:47:55 AM by Delling »
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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2011, 09:29:15 AM »
Hahahahaha... :suffer:

Early November, probably.  It's very early yet--we'll know more in the coming weeks.

Do you know if its a boy or girl yet?

No.  You typically can't find that out until several months into it.  :)

Offline snabbott

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2011, 09:33:45 AM »
you know it's really bad when Lamb asks you to back off.

(btw, congrats on the baby news, Lamb.)

Lol...and thanks!

The baby news is that my wife and I just found out we're pregnant with our first.  ;)
Congratulations! Kids are LOTS of work, but it's SO worth it! :D

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2011, 09:59:41 AM »
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And Perceval, you make it sound like we didn't know you were DMD. Trust me, we got an email as soon as you registered from the team saying you were back, so it's not like you pulled the wool over our eyes at all. What I wonder is why you decided to come back at all when you asked to have your account deleted. If you weren't happy, why would you continue to hang around.
I didn't know it was DMD, but I'm not at all surprised.

Quote
I don't like pecans.  I don't eat pecans. I don't discuss pecans.  Generally I don't think about pecans.  I tend to shy away from them at all costs.  So why should I waste my time and everyone else's by going on and on about something I dislike?  Something to consider...
I was gonna say something like that, but not with pecans (because they are amazing) and it was gonna be the opposite, where I was b****ing about how much I hate them.

too late now, I just explained my masterplan.

Don't presume you know all about me, saying, "you're not surprised" that it's me. I've been here since 2003 and for the longest time, I did indeed support this project and this game, for years actually. It's only recently, in the past year or so, that I've turned against it. I've been called in this thread a "troll", and apparently, I'm regarded as nothing more than a troll on this forum for speaking my mind. I gained this reputation for but a few threads--this one, thread titled reinventing the wheel, and a thread asking about plot holes.

That's three threads in a posting history which spans probably dozens of more threads and eight years. Do not presume I'm simply a "troll", or what have you. I don't spam this forum. I don't harass and harangue it's members. I post threads in other parts of the forum, on other topics, which are positive and which others seem to appreciate. It is unfair to be branded a troll for having a dissenting opinion, or for pointing out flaws I see.

Offline snabbott

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2011, 10:12:46 AM »
It's not the fact that you express a dissenting opinion. Lots of people do that. It's the WAY you express it. Sometimes, it just seems like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. :-\ I know you're passionate about KQ and Sierra, and I appreciate that. So are a lot of other people on the forums. It's hard to have a rational discussion when people attack/get defensive, though.

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Offline Cez

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2011, 11:12:04 AM »
More like the way he continues to express it over and over and over again in discussions that simply never go anywhere. So, why bother to discuss in the first place if there's no place to change your mind. The guy keeps saying that I can never admit when I'm wrong, but he's obviously never read me before when Ive said I know a lot of the TSL writing could be much better.

Coming up with ridiculous arguments to things that you obviously have no idea how they work makes you a troll. The whole VGA thing, I'm sorry, man, you just were making a fool out of yourself, because in 92 the things that you said couldn't be possible, were possible (changes to sprites through animations was possible, so you could essentially either do a darkening of Alex's clothes, or just have water drops dripping from him, which would have been very visible) --How do you think Gabriel Knight takes off his t-shirt in GK1? Doable, yes it was doable. Worthy, not so much. But At least have the decency to let game development to the people who have been working hands on this for much longer than you have (which I believe amounts exactly to nothing). Instead, just to win the argument, you came up with a dumb argument of technological limitation when there was no limitation to the example quoted. I drew the parallel to King's Quest 6, but I was just really drawing a parallel to game development. If you expect things in gaming development to be Pixar quality, especially from a fan group working for free, you are a troll.

So if you don't like being labeled as a troll, stop trolling. Even in the circles where TSL isn't really popular, people have told you to drop it already. Again, that's when you should realize you are taking it a bit too far. If you cannot see that, then you have a problem, and if people continue to report you as a troll, then we'll go ahead and put a ban on you. You have been warned.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 11:29:18 AM by Cez »


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Offline atec123

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2011, 11:18:20 AM »
Quote
Don't presume you know all about me, saying, "you're not surprised" that it's me. I've been here since 2003 and for the longest time, I did indeed support this project and this game, for years actually. It's only recently, in the past year or so, that I've turned against it.
I had read enough of your stuff so that when I read this thread, in my mind I thought "that really seems like stuff DMD would have written.  maybe that's him?"
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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2011, 11:28:58 AM »
More like the way he continues to express it over and over and over again in discussions that simply never go anywhere. So, why bother to discuss in the first place if there's no place to change your mind. The guy keeps saying that I can never admit when I'm wrong, but he's obviously never read me before when Ive said I know a lot of the TSL writing could be much better.

Coming up with ridiculous arguments to things that you obviously have no idea how they work makes you a troll. The whole VGA thing, I'm sorry, man, you just were making a fool out of yourself, because in 92 the things that you said couldn't be possible, were possible (changes to sprites through animations was possible, so you could essentially either do a darkening of Alex's clothes, or just have water drops dripping from him, which would have been very visible) --How do you think Gabriel Knight takes off his t-shirt in GK1? Doable, yes it was doable. Worthy, not so much. But At least have the decency to let game development to the people who have been working hands on this for much longer than you have (which I believe amounts exactly to nothing). Instead, just to win the argument, you came up with a dumb argument that VGA was just starting back then (no, it had started a couple of years back when they did KQ5 -and that's one I'm sure you knew, by the time they were doing KQ6, they were deep into it).

So if you don't like being labeled as a troll, stop trolling. Even in the circles where TSL isn't really popular, people have told you to drop it already. Again, that's when you should realize you are taking it a bit too far. If you cannot see that, then you have a problem, and if people continue to report you as a troll, then we'll go ahead and put a ban on you. You have been warned.

I said it was in it's infancy. Not brand new, but it was still something radical in 1991 given that KQ5 had just come out the year before. And new things were being developed and explored all the time. The engine for KQ5 was SCI1, it's own version. And then that was further developed into SCI1.1 which was utilized on a number of games in 1992, including KQ6, and included all sorts of things like scaling. As far as the water thing and GK1, GK1 came out a year later in '93. A year's time could mean a lot to Sierra games. Look at the difference between the 1992 and 1993 versions of KQ6 for example, or between the 1990 and 1991 versions of KQ5.

Even previous designers at Sierra stated KQ was always a testing ground for new technology. For example, KQ7 was a testing ground for SCI2, which is why the graphics are pretty choppy compared to SQ6 which came out just a year later--because other games would refine what KQ built (technologically).

A lot of this technology, stuff that's taken for granted today, like lipsynching for example, was revolutionary then. Sierra bought a company who specialized in lip-synching just to be able to make the games that much more realistic. By the '90s, technology was becoming one of the most important aspects of Sierra game design--Something which guys like the Two Guys from Andromeda loathed (they didn't even want point and click in SQ4).

And yeah, I may not have game making experience YET, but I do know quite a bit about gaming history and the various achievements as it's a personal interest of mine.

(Posted on: March 06, 2011, 02:28:07 PM)


Quote
Don't presume you know all about me, saying, "you're not surprised" that it's me. I've been here since 2003 and for the longest time, I did indeed support this project and this game, for years actually. It's only recently, in the past year or so, that I've turned against it.
I had read enough of your stuff so that when I read this thread, in my mind I thought "that really seems like stuff DMD would have written.  maybe that's him?"

It's not like I ever made it a secret who I was. I never denied being DMD, did I?

Offline darthkiwi

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2011, 12:56:02 PM »
Quote
As far as the water thing and GK1, GK1 came out a year later in '93. A year's time could mean a lot to Sierra games.
I'm not familiar with how the engine works specifically, but if in KQ5 Graham can put on a cloak and shrink into the distance when he walks further away, if the engine supports changes in perspective such as the top-down scene where you navigate the mountain just before being taken by the giant Roc, and the extreme long shot of the town where Graham is just a few pixels high, and if Graham actually turns into several different creatures at the end of the game, I really can't see why they wouldn't be able to make his clothes wet.
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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2011, 12:58:01 PM »
Quote
As far as the water thing and GK1, GK1 came out a year later in '93. A year's time could mean a lot to Sierra games.
I'm not familiar with how the engine works specifically, but if in KQ5 Graham can put on a cloak and shrink into the distance when he walks further away, if the engine supports changes in perspective such as the top-down scene where you navigate the mountain just before being taken by the giant Roc, and the extreme long shot of the town where Graham is just a few pixels high, and if Graham actually turns into several different creatures at the end of the game, I really can't see why they wouldn't be able to make his clothes wet.

I don't think the VGA perspective shrinking/growing in KQ5 is true scaling though.  It looks to me like they actually drew separate sprites at different sizes and then linked them together to form a "scaling" animation.  In KQ6, Alex's sprite actually physically shrinks in size--it's a subtle difference but an important one.  :)

Offline Haids1987

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2011, 01:19:14 PM »
But I loooooooove pecans*! ..and arguing? You wanna fight about it? :P
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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2011, 01:22:56 PM »
Quote
As far as the water thing and GK1, GK1 came out a year later in '93. A year's time could mean a lot to Sierra games.
I'm not familiar with how the engine works specifically, but if in KQ5 Graham can put on a cloak and shrink into the distance when he walks further away, if the engine supports changes in perspective such as the top-down scene where you navigate the mountain just before being taken by the giant Roc, and the extreme long shot of the town where Graham is just a few pixels high, and if Graham actually turns into several different creatures at the end of the game, I really can't see why they wouldn't be able to make his clothes wet.

I don't think the VGA perspective shrinking/growing in KQ5 is true scaling though.  It looks to me like they actually drew separate sprites at different sizes and then linked them together to form a "scaling" animation.  In KQ6, Alex's sprite actually physically shrinks in size--it's a subtle difference but an important one.  :)

You have it exactly correct. SCI1.1 introduced true scaling, which added a subtle but good dose of realism to the animation. Each version of SCI added more and more.

Offline Cez

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2011, 02:10:50 PM »
My memory is a bit foggy about it, but if I recall correctly, Alexander gets ripped in half by the minotaur with blood and bones showing, and also turns into a beast, which shows you right there getting wet was very easily doable.


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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2011, 02:44:19 PM »
My memory is a bit foggy about it, but if I recall correctly, Alexander gets ripped in half by the minotaur with blood and bones showing, and also turns into a beast, which shows you right there getting wet was very easily doable.



Well that... is brutal


Offline atec123

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2011, 02:58:26 PM »
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It's not like I ever made it a secret who I was. I never denied being DMD, did I?
I never said you did.  I guess I just didn't make the connection until after I posted.  no matter.  carry on.
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Offline Enchantermon

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #75 on: March 06, 2011, 03:11:25 PM »
I don't know about getting ripped in half (ew), but I do remember that he turns into a beast if you wait too long after meeting Beast.
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Offline darthkiwi

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #76 on: March 06, 2011, 04:35:14 PM »
Thanks for pointing out that Graham's scaling isn't actual scaling - it's an interesting point I hadn't noticed.

Even so, my point still stands: they could have made a character get wet after a swim with a bit of work.

I think this is getting away from the main topic, but I believe the original point was that, in game design, some things get done and some don't due to time restraints and lack of resources. Graham could have been given an "in water" sprite, a "drying off" sprite, a "nearly dry" sprite and the normal Graham sprite. He could have been given a different costume from his adventurer's gear and the cloak for some arbitrary reason. These things didn't happen because they weren't worth the time and effort needed to implement them.

So too with Alexander's hair. I don't want to sound like one of those "Everyone says you're wrong so you're wrong" people - that's terribly flawed logic - but you are the only person to complain about his hair. I'm not going to suggest that he uses hair gel or magic to keep his hair like that - I'm just going to suggest that, for this game, this is what his hair looks like. In the same way that Graham always wore his adventurer's cap, that Gwydion never changed out of his slave's clothes, and that Valanice's and Rosella's hair remained perfect in KQ7, so too does Alexander's hair stay like that in TSL. It's just a part of his character: we all accept that in this game, this is what his hair looks like. I mean, everyone seems to be fine with talking guard dogs, American accents, and the use of the English language in the game, so singling out spiky hair seems odd.

I mean, think about that for a moment. In order for the English language to develop at all, you'd need 1) a race of people speaking Anglo-Saxon 2) an invasion of those people by another society speaking Medieval French and 3) enough time and the right cultural and social conditions for the two to meld in precisely the same way as English has in our timeline plus 4) work to be done on the language by playwrights, writers of dictionaries, poets and other scholars who introduced or invented new words and turns of phrase. (Without Shakespeare you wouldn't say "In my mind's eye", "Into thin air" or "the milk of human kindness", for example.) Realistically speaking, there is no way that the KQ characters could possibly be speaking the English of the late 20th/early 21st century.

My point is, any game which is not a documentary of an actual time and place in (preferably recent) human history will take some things for granted. In most fantasy games, it's that these varied, unearthly people speak English just like us. In TSL, it's that Alexander has spiky hair. Seriously, I don't see why it's such a big deal. I mean, it just seems like the kind of thing that would be done in almost any game without anyone thinking about it, either the developers or audience. It just doesn't seem like a very important thing to me.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 04:45:07 PM by darthkiwi »
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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2011, 04:53:30 PM »
Well it does seem odd that Alex is the only member of the royal family whose look has been drastically changed for this game and this game alone.  ;)  I always assumed it was because the designers were manga nerds and that it was an homage to anime.

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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2011, 05:03:41 PM »
Well it does seem odd that Alex is the only member of the royal family whose look has been drastically changed for this game and this game alone.  ;)  I always assumed it was because the designers were manga nerds and that it was an homage to anime.

Well, everyone has a classic hair style. Alexander's is the most date-able hair style. They were probably just modernizing it a bit. Everyone else's hair styles are still fashionable for royalty.


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Re: Spikey Hair & Held Hands
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2011, 05:12:11 PM »
Lol, depends on how you classify drastic. We had Rosella grow out her bangs, and let me tell you, as a lady who's had them and not had them, growing out your bangs takes serious commitment. They reach that irritating length when they're too long to wear in front of your face but too short to push behind your ears and man is it tempting to just cut those suckers short again! ;)

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