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Girls and Games

Started by glottal, May 12, 2011, 02:22:05 AM

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glottal

So the most recent round of Guess That Adventure game led me to this:

Alternatives: Games for Girls and Women

Some thoughts

1. I forget whether it was Robert or Jane, but a prominent female designer at Sierra said that one reason why there were more female designers in adventure games than in other genres is that females were more interested in adventure games

2. While unicorns, sparkles, and flowers are very girly, they are no more girly than tales of gangster warfare, child abuse, rape, drugs, kidnapping, and torture

3. There are a lot of girl gamers now, and many mainstream games do appeal to many girls, perhaps more so than in the 90s. 

4. Is there still a gap which could be filled by more female-oriented games?  And what would those female-oriented games be like?  I certainly hope they wouldn't all be otome games (not that I mind otome games...)

Lambonius

Quote from: glottal on May 12, 2011, 02:22:05 AM
4. Is there still a gap which could be filled by more female-oriented games?  And what would those female-oriented games be like?

Lol...I think TSL fits that gap quite nicely.  *evil laugh

KatieHal

I don't think there's as much of a gap now as there once was. If you narrow it down to specific genres, I imagine some would show more disparity than others, and I imagine adventure games would be among the ones with a higher female audience.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

glottal

I agree that the gap is not as big as it once was ... and I think the gap was filled, not by people aiming for a specifically female audience, as the book was suggesting, but by game designers trying to tap a more mainstream audience, and mainstream audiences have lots of females.

Of course, I think that the book was exaggerating the gap a bit.  I was a girl in the 90s, and I had no problem finding computers games that interested me.

I do (seriously) think that TSL works well as a girly game.  Of course, I think the KQ games in general were more girl-friendly than average in their time, probably partially because they were all designed by females.

Haids1987

Perhaps it's because I work with kids and am always beating into their brains that "there are no such thing as boy toys and girl toys," but I think that the idea of "boy games" and "girl games" is a little vague.  I mean, of course games like Barbie Fashion Designer and Crystal's Pony Tale are more geared towards girls, but boys could just as easily play them.  I mean, gamers are gamers no matter what their gender.  I was discussing video games with my co worker last night and she said that her 8 year-old sister's favorite games are the Halo games, and she kicks everyone's butt at them.

I don't think that gaming is a boy thing or a girl thing.  It's an interest and personality thing.
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KatieHal

Speaking of, a hilarious one-video LP of Crystal's Pony Tale--warning, LPer is drunk and does swear. BUt that's why it's so funny :)

http://www.youtube.com/user/lucahjin#p/search/0/Vfr-PzzCVf4

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

atec123

Quote from: KatieHal on May 12, 2011, 12:45:12 PM
Speaking of, a hilarious one-video LP of Crystal's Pony Tale--warning, LPer is drunk and does swear. BUt that's why it's so funny :)

http://www.youtube.com/user/lucahjin#p/search/0/Vfr-PzzCVf4
that game looks really trippy.
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KatieHal

From what I can tell, it is! I watched a non-drunk LP of it which was also pretty funny by Kikoskia on youtube :)

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Haids1987

Bwa ha ha!! ;D That's the game I mentioned in another thread, the one I played when I was a little girl, but couldn't remember the name of it.  I actually think Sir Percival found it for me.

Anyway, not as trippy as it seems!  I loved it. :smitten:
STATUS:
-Drinking water
-Checking the forum. 

Perpetually. ;D
Erica Reed is Katie Hallahan.
Leader of the "I <3 Doon" Fanclub

glottal

Quote from: Haids1987 on May 12, 2011, 12:37:55 PM
Perhaps it's because I work with kids and am always beating into their brains that "there are no such thing as boy toys and girl toys," but I think that the idea of "boy games" and "girl games" is a little vague.  I mean, of course games like Barbie Fashion Designer and Crystal's Pony Tale are more geared towards girls, but boys could just as easily play them.

And probably some boys did play them, but that didn't change the fact that they were oriented towards girls.

Like I said, I never had a problem finding games which interested me (and come to think of it, my female peers back in the 90s didn't seem to have this problem either), but what was annoying is the assumption in many games that the players were boys.  Since I play mostly oldies these days, I don't know to what extent this has changed, but it can be grating when game after game has a male protagonist (even if there is no reason why the protagonist HAD to be male), and most of the other characters are male too (are the women in the kitchen or something?) ... and after playing a few games in a row devoid of girliness, I start craving it (though, as I said earlier, girliness encompasses a lot more than the narrow view that media executives imagine).

Come to think of it, that is one thing that I really do like about the old Sierra games.  They always have at least a dash of girliness, so I don't get cravings, and there are always plenty of female characters.

Haids1987

I guess I'm just a little confused by what you're trying to convey, no offense intended.  Are you frustrated with the fact that there aren't as many games geared towards girls, or are you saying that girl games aren't necessary...?  I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, I just want to understand. :)

Quote from: glottal on May 12, 2011, 08:47:02 PM
it can be grating when game after game has a male protagonist (even if there is no reason why the protagonist HAD to be male), and most of the other characters are male too (are the women in the kitchen or something?) ... and after playing a few games in a row devoid of girliness, I start craving it (though, as I said earlier, girliness encompasses a lot more than the narrow view that media executives imagine).
Hmmm.  Well, I guess now that you mention it, a male protagonist all the time can be annoying, but you must remember that a lot of the early video games started in Japan, where males are the dominant sex.  It wasn't until later that girls started entering the stories as more than the scullery maid or helpless victim, and times have changed.  Lara Croft, Terra, Rayne, Ms. Pac-Man, Tifa, Chun-Li...there are lots of girls in gaming now.

I consider myself a feminist and I can't stand double standards, but I go back to my statement that gamers will play whatever they find interesting, male or female.
STATUS:
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-Checking the forum. 

Perpetually. ;D
Erica Reed is Katie Hallahan.
Leader of the "I <3 Doon" Fanclub

glottal

Well actually I've been playing mostly Infocom games lately, which are as American as apple pie.  And a few of their games did try to be more inclusive of females, but those are a minority.

You are probably confused because I don't have a coherent opinion on this.  I'm still in the process of forming an opinion.

darthkiwi

I think a large part of the solution is not to make girly games, but to make games which are less MANLY and STRONG and feature people KICKING ASS BECAUSE THEY HAVE SO MANY MUSCLES!!!!

I mean, take this



or this



or this



They're all clearly aimed at men or boys who, to a certain extent, would like to be those strong, almost super-powered characters. And while girls could still play these games and might well enjoy them, they're still aimed at boys and will therefore attract more attention from men than women. Whereas if we had more games which weren't about muscular, gun-toting ass-kicking male power-fantasies, maybe more girls would be willing to game.

Oh, and this ad campaign is without doubt the worst offender:

Prince of the Aquitaine. Duke of York.

Knight errant and consort to Her Grace the Empress Deloria of the Holy Roman Empire, Queene of all Albion and Princess Palatine.

glottal

My dad would probably hate Dead Space 2 too.

KatieHal

If I recall, didn't they get a lot of flak for that ad for DS2?

Interestingly, there was a panel about women in gaming at the first PAX East that Rich & I went to. All women on the panel, and naturally a lot of questions about the images of women in games, feminism, etc. I asked a question about...oh what was the wording...ah! here it is, glad I keep this notebook handy.

"How do you think games can or do or should try to sell successful female characters who aren't oversexualized? Either what qualities they have, or should have, and what are the added challenges to doing so?"

(not my best wording, but you get the idea--someone else asked the first question I had written down while I was waiting in line!)

And the answer I got was total crap that basically boiled down, oh, well, just go ahead and oversexualize it to get a male audience, it's no big deal and it works. Um, thanks, women of the gaming industry, for giving the message that this is impossible and trivial. It was really disappointing, because I don't think that's necessary and I wanted to hear the thoughts & advice of women who should have had a better answer about how to, essentially, market a female character to a male audience without stripping away her femininity or making her a sex object.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Lambonius

Quote from: KatieHal on May 13, 2011, 08:19:45 AM
how to...market a female character to a male audience without stripping away her femininity or making her a sex object.

Impossible.

darthkiwi

That's sad, Katie. :(

One very successful female character is Samus Aran from the Metroid games, but I'm not sure if she counts because she's fairly desexualised: she's a powerful character dressed in a metal suit. It's nice to know you're playing a girl but it wouldn't have taken much to make her a male character; in fact, most players of Metroid 1 assumed they were playing a man, and were surprised when the big reveal at the end was that Samus was a woman.

There's actually an excellent video series which has tried to address this question:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2868-True-Female-Characters

Incidentally, this video series is BRILLIANT. Please, everyone who is interested in games as an artistic medium, watch these videos. They don't get everything right all the time but they are *extremely* insightful and far more thoughtful than most other things on the internet.

I think the answer to the problem of female characters is to make them appealing the same way that fully realised male characters are. So give them personality, give them strengths and weaknesses, give them a struggle and present them as human beings rather than caricatures. You don't have to give them enormous breasts and take away their clothes for them to be deeply engaging: you have to make them intriguing as a character.
Prince of the Aquitaine. Duke of York.

Knight errant and consort to Her Grace the Empress Deloria of the Holy Roman Empire, Queene of all Albion and Princess Palatine.

Lambonius

Samus Aran was desexualized??

In the original NES game the reward for beating the game in under a certain amount of time was literally the removal of her clothes.  You could do this twice to get her down to a bikini.

That's desexualized?

MusicallyInspired

Yeah, she's a great contender, but it falls apart quickly with the bonus ending sequences. Metroid Prime 1 was the only game that portrayed her entirely as a non-sexualised figure. The most you got at the end for a reward was seeing her take her helmet off. And she looked great. And then Prime 2 came out and Nintendo forced Retro Studios to turn her into a teeny bopper.

KatieHal

Plus there are later versions of Samus that completely destroy the non-sexualized idea of the character. Zero Suit, anyone?

That's the thing, I certainly know it's possible, and some of what makes it possible, but I wanted to hear some thoughts and advice from women in the industry as well. And the reply I got was a complete disappointment. I mean, I understand the idea of sort of "owning" that sexualized imagery and wielding it rather than being objectified for it, but there ARE other ways.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!