Author Topic: Real-life rapture? (BioShock)  (Read 6403 times)

Offline Baggins

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Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Real-life rapture? (BioShock)
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2011, 04:01:51 PM »
A libertarian state would be interesting. It's far from the morals of Andrew Ryan, but I wonder if the outcome would be the same.  :P
Freudian Slip - "When you say one thing, but mean your mother."

Offline MikPal

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Re: Real-life rapture? (BioShock)
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2011, 04:16:20 PM »
So, ummm...  Am I just gonna have to keep looking at the skies waiting for a dollar shaped cloud to mark the return of the rich and the talented?

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Real-life rapture? (BioShock)
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2011, 04:38:19 PM »
Maybe the most expensive epic fail ever.  You can't expect to basically give the whole civilized world "the finger" and then get on a big boat forever.  An experiment like this can only succeed if the society that it forms can be totally self-sufficient.  Won't happen.
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Offline Baggins

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Re: Real-life rapture? (BioShock)
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2011, 04:42:50 PM »
Quote
"A libertarian state would be interesting. It's far from the morals of Andrew Ryan, but I wonder if the outcome would be the same."

The United States at one time was more 'libertarian' (i.e. 'classical liberal') than it was modern liberal or modern conservative. It was even closer to 'anarchism' under the previous Articles of Confederation. The latter didn't work out, and almost divided the country into separate countries/states!

The real question will the socialistic 'collectivists" also lead to a similar outcome in this "Rapture" ;). Because Bioshock essentially criticized both extreme 'Randist' Objectivist laissez faire capitalistic form of libertarianism and the collectivist version of socialism. Both leading to 'worst case scenarios'!

One of the more amusing undertones about Andrew Ryan is he seem's to be based off a bit of Howard Hughes and Walt Disney! If you have seen some of Walt Disney's WW2/Cold War era videos he was widly anti-communist! Some argue he might have even had fascist tendencies!

Similarly, Andrew Ryan in his need to control his world, and defend it against perceived "outside threats" became a dictator, he enlarged his government, into a toltalitarian behemoth, to control over every minor aspect of his society (he began to break from his own 'ideal utopian' system of 'freedoms' in order to eliminate the 'collectivists')! It can be argued in the end he was far from being a true libertarian, than what he had wished for when he started his dream (since he started taking away everyone's 'liberties').

Then there is Sophia Lamb who wanted to turn Rapture into a socialist utopia... But she too became a dictator in the end, and began sacrificing people for what she perceived as the 'common good', or murdering (or enslaving) those who disagreed with her methods or beliefs. There is a bit of Lenin/Stalin and Mao, and even a bit of Pol Pot in her methods. Perhaps she is a bit closer to Pol Pot, in that Pol Pot began as an unassuming academic, who believed he could institute a utopian society that everyone could enjoy and be a part of. But after he failed to convince everyone one to agree, he had those who resisted his government destroyed or imprisoned.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 08:07:16 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Real-life rapture? (BioShock)
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2011, 05:37:21 PM »
Maybe the most expensive epic fail ever.  You can't expect to basically give the whole civilized world "the finger" and then get on a big boat forever.  An experiment like this can only succeed if the society that it forms can be totally self-sufficient.  Won't happen.

It will most likely fail, but in the midst of all of these rising political parties (such as the Tea Party), I have noticed that Libertarianism has been given more attention than it has been given in some time (possibly since the colonial times in the United States). I don't see it being self-sufficient, but I see it being supported as an idealistic investment. That is, until the city sinks to the bottom of the ocean.  :P

Quote
"A libertarian state would be interesting. It's far from the morals of Andrew Ryan, but I wonder if the outcome would be the same."

The United States at one time was more 'libertarian' (i.e. 'classical liberal') than it was modern liberal or modern conservative. It was even closer to 'anarchism' under the previous Articles of Confederation. The latter didn't work out, and almost divided the country into separate countries/states!

The real question will the socialistic 'collectivists" also lead to a similar outcome in this "Rapture" ;). Because Bioshock essentially criticized both extreme 'Randist' laissez faire capitalistic form of libertarianism and the collectivist version of socialism. Both leading to 'worst case scenarios'!

One of the more amusing undertones about Andrew Ryan is he seem's to be based off a bit of Howard Hughes and Walt Disney! If you have seen some of Walt Disney's WW2/Cold War era videos he was widly anti-communist! Some argue he might have even had fascist tendencies!

Similarly, Andrew Ryan in his need to control his world, and defend it against perceived "outside threats" became a dictator, he enlarged his government, into a toltalitarian behemoth, to control over every minor aspect of his society (he began to break from his own 'ideal utopian' system of 'freedoms' in order to eliminate the 'collectivists')! It can be argued in the end he was far from being a true libertarian, than what he had wished for when he started his dream (since he started taking away everyone's 'liberties').

Then there is Sophia Lamb who wanted to turn Rapture into a socialist utopia... But she too became a dictator in the end, and began sacrificing people for what she perceived as the 'common good', or murdering (or enslaving) those who disagreed with her methods or beliefs. There is a bit of Lenin/Stalin and Mao, and even a bit of Pol Pot in her methods. Perhaps she is a bit closer to Pol Pot, in that Pol Pot began as an unassuming academic, who believed he could institute a utopian society that everyone could enjoy and be a part of. But after he failed to convince everyone one to agree, he had those who resisted his government destroyed or imprisoned.

I believe Sophia Lamb was the antagonist in Bioshock 2, which I haven't played yet and have no intention of playing. Still, knowing that Lamb's political stance was drastically different from Ryan's, but her reign had come to the same conclusion as Ryan's just goes to show the price of power. I don't know the specifics of Bioshock 2, but I only assume that her plot was foiled, yes?

2K Marin was probably using Sophia Lamb as a polar opposite to Ryan, and then showed that a similar conclusion would ensue. A helluva statement to say the least. If capitalism and socialism lead to a similar downfall, then what's the right answer? 42, that's what.

Irrational games really developed Andrew Ryan's character well, I think. Knowing his ideals, and knowing the path he took to lead Rapture is the biggest contradiction. A self-acclaimed anarchist who wants to create a utopia, so decides to lay down laws to prevent people like Fontaine from undermining the city's potential? Genius.

This is essentially why I'm excited for Bioshock Infinite. I want to get to know the leaders and their ideals, and see how far they fall before they reach the bottom.
Freudian Slip - "When you say one thing, but mean your mother."

Offline Baggins

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Re: Real-life rapture? (BioShock)
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2011, 08:25:53 PM »
Heh, well Sophia Lamb can be 'saved' or killed depending on how nice you are during the game (helping the girls, and allowing the main antagonists in each area to live).

Bioshock 2 isn't as good as the first game though. The main playable character is quite mindless really, and not that compelling.

But the political commentary is still great, and gives another side to Andrew Ryan that's worth fully understanding his rise and fall. The game really builds on the early years of Ryan's rise when the city was first founded, when he was more like Walt Disney, less Howard Hughes (Rapture even had an animatronic amusement park!). It touches on racism in the city, more about class warfare, and how Fontaine came to power (essentially using Lamb's philanthropy).

Some of the recordings are some speeches between Sophia Lamb and Andrew Ryan argueing over their opposing visions for the city. Andrew Ryan's thoughts when he found out that he invited a 'damned collectivist' into the city, etc.

The Bioshock 2 DLC, Minerva's Den on the other hand is probably one of the best stories in the whole Rapture storyline. Filling in and answering quite a bit of the backstory for both leaders! Introducing probably the most compelling playable character in the series!

Quote
2K Marin was probably using Sophia Lamb as a polar opposite to Ryan, and then showed that a similar conclusion would ensue. A helluva statement to say the least. If capitalism and socialism lead to a similar downfall, then what's the right answer? 42, that's what.

Thomas Jefferson had this to say which might apply;

Quote
"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Tree

Thomas Paine also said;
Quote
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 08:35:58 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Real-life rapture? (BioShock)
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2011, 10:41:09 PM »
I don't think that any society which knowingly allows the disparity between the poor and the wealthy to grow can remain a stable or effective society in the long run.
Weldon Hathaway

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Real-life rapture? (BioShock)
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2011, 02:33:05 PM »
SO LONG, STINKTOWN!!!!