Opinions on King's Quest V?

[Fierce Deity]

You know what? I'm happy with the way KQ5 is now, but it was still be interesting if KQ5 were to be redesigned in a more "director's cut" way with Cedric's role being as fleshed out as it was supposed to be and with  proper hints and additional content to explain all the puzzles. Maybe even redesign or add to one or two.

That would be neat. Gearing that Cedric was originally supposed to be a completely different character makes me quite curious to play such a game with a wise helpful owl.

Agreed.

[Sir Perceval of Daventry]

You know what? I'm happy with the way KQ5 is now, but it was still be interesting if KQ5 were to be redesigned in a more "director's cut" way with Cedric's role being as fleshed out as it was supposed to be and with  proper hints and additional content to explain all the puzzles. Maybe even redesign or add to one or two.

That would be neat. Gearing that Cedric was originally supposed to be a completely different character makes me quite curious to play such a game with a wise helpful owl.

Indeed. A KQ5 "remake" of that sort would be quite cool, especially since the technical limitations which precluded KQ5 from being what Roberta wanted it to be, aren't there anymore. I'd love to see Cedric as a wise helpful owl. He's cool as he is---I'm one of those who never hated Cedric--but seeing him in an expanded role would be cool.

I've asked Roberta/Ken for years if they'd ever open the vaults and allow fan access to her design documents and design notes--she still has them--as Al Lowe did, but to no avail. Seeing Roberta's design documents and notes would probably be like the Holy Grail for quite a few KQ fans--at least for me.

[KatieHal]

Some really good ideas about how to improve KQ5

For some additional suggestions, I'd also get rid of the whole roc's/huge bird's nest scenario entirely, and have Cassima's necklace show up somewhere that makes sense. Maybe outside Mordack's castle, or in the maze someplace. And I'd also like the story to connect events a little more--give you a reason to venture into the desert, other than that it's there. Maybe stories in the town about how the desert raiders are harassing their town and causing problems, so when you go to find them, it's for a purpose. And have a little more about Mordack in the game as well, stories about him or possibly he could pop up somewhere. Just...something to bring it all together more cohesively.

I think I'd nix the cheese altogether and make it something else Graham had to use or do to charge up the wand.

[Baggins]

"director's cut" way with Cedric's role being as fleshed out as it was supposed to be and with  proper hints and additional content to explain all the puzzles.

How he was supposed to be? I'm intrigued to you have an interview or article on hand?

or in the maze someplace.

OH, ya that would work out well... It's already a place where you can wander around endlessly... without knowledge that you need to find Dink (to get the key), or even that you need to use tamborine on Dink.

So you are suggesting putting more 'random' items hidden in the maze, that people may not even know they need to find in order to help Cassima?

I also rather like the Roc's nest scenario... It adds excitement and danger to the story... It also has some of the coolest backgrounds in the game, the fly over to its nest, and that little mysterious village you can't get to.

[MusicallyInspired]

How he was supposed to be? I'm intrigued to you have an interview or article on hand?

Did you miss Perceval's post?

I think the main issue is that it wasn't that the puzzles were put in with no thought or just thrown in for filler--it's just that you have to remember they were dealing with an entirely new engine in many ways, a new interface, a whole new way to design games. All of these factors probably were overwhelming and might've happened the development of puzzles and other things. I remember hearing for example that Cedric was actually originally supposed to be a wise, helpful Owl. But everytime he'd be put into certain scenes, the game would crash from a lack of space--Remember how weak computing technology was then compared to now--So Cedric became the cowardly Owl instead of the helpful Owl. Every scene that he stays out of is a scene he was probably supposed to be in and give advice in.

So a lot of these puzzles might've actually had Cedric's help, making them less illogical, but his role in the game was severely reduced due to technological restraints. And I'm sure with technological problems came budget and scheduling concerns. Sierra was already a public company when KQ5 went into production.

I also rather like the Roc's nest scenario... It adds excitement and danger to the story... It also has some of the coolest backgrounds in the game, the fly over to its nest, and that little mysterious village you can't get to.

Indeed. I love that part. Far removed from common sense or not. All it really needs is to be fleshed out a bit...maybe not even so much.

[Baggins]

Did you miss Perceval's post?

Ok, I direct my question to Percival! Where is an interview and article that talks about that?

[Sir Perceval of Daventry]

Did you miss Perceval's post?

Ok, I direct my question to Percival! Where is an interview and article that talks about that?

There was an audio interviewwith Josh Mandel conducted by the guys of Sierra Music Central a few years back wherein he mentioned this. It's the same interview, if I'm not mistaken, where he talks about how he felt during KQ5's production that Graham should be played with more emotion, and Roberta vetoed this idea saying Graham was ALWAYS "buff" being the hero. So Josh had to play Graham within a much more narrow band than he felt he should've.

I specifically remember him saying that Cedric's role was to be larger, but the game/game build would crash every time he was put into certain rooms because it would kill the game's memory, and so his role was changed from that of a "friendly wise owl"--more common in fantasy--to Cedric the barely helpful, cowardly owl we got in KQ5. Notice how Cedric almost never goes anywhere with you, for example, not into the Desert, or Dark Forest, or into the Inn, or into Town, or into any of the Town's buildings, or into Mordack's castle/dungeon? I imagine those were places the game crashed at when he was put into it.

[MusicallyInspired]

Ah yes, I recall that interview. Great interview, actually. Josh really opened up and revealed a lot in that interview. I believe he even pointed out an alternate ending to Shivers or Phantasmagoria or something that was much better than what ended up in the final product.

[Baggins]

I'd like to hear the interview actually! Looks like something that would be good knowledge for the KQ5 development article.

http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Absence_Makes_the_Heart_Go_Yonder_Development

I found an interview with Josh where he discusses his involvement in KQ5 and the voice acting;
http://www.frodrig.com/macedoniamagazine/joshi.htm

J.M.- Thank you! I did have quite a bit of prior experience in voice acting before going to Sierra. I had been in a movie, on several television programs, and did voices for radio programs and commercials. My major in college was Acting and I had worked as a stand-up comedian for many years before going into advertising.

I was not very happy with my performance in King's Quest V. It was the first time Roberta had directed (although she had Mark Seibert to help her) and she wanted King Graham to always be "buff" and brave. There were many times in the recording where I would try to do some real acting, and give Graham moods and emotions, but Roberta kept saying, "He's never tired, he's King Graham!" or "He's never worried, he's King Graham!". So I felt the performance did not have enough emotion in it, but people seemed to like it anyway, so maybe Roberta was on to something.

Nothing in there about Cedric unfortunately. He does make a comment about Phantas ending and Laura Bow II.

There is also more here on his pre-Sierra acting career;
http://www.adventureclassicgaming.com/index.php/site/interviews/196/

Before you joined Sierra On-Line in 1990, you worked as an actor and a comedian. How satisfied were you with your career up to that time? What gaming, programming, and designing experiences did you have prior to joining Sierra On-Line?
 
My partner and I had largely stopped touring and performing about four years before I went to Sierra. I still did a fair amount of acting nights and weekends, but to keep a roof over my head, for my "day job," I went into advertising.

On a related note, as far as I know Josh Mandel didn't have any part in developing KQ5 (though he came in later to lend his voice for the CD-rom version). He was hard on work on KQ1SCI at the time. He is not included in the KQ5 floppy credits. KQ1SCI may have even been his first job at Sierra?

From the Royal Scribe, in the original KQ collection;

Josh Mandel started at Sierra On-Line in 1990 as an Assistant Producer, his first project being the SCI remake of King's Quest I. But he preferred to spend his time writing sarcastic text for any designer who would let him. Scott Murphy and Mark Crowe gave him his first opportunity by allowing him to write the parody software boxes and bogus hint book for Space Quest IV. Since then, he's been a contributing writer on most Sierra adventures, as well as the director, writer, and co-designer of Freddy Pharkas, Frontier Pharmacist. Josh is currently designing and directing Space Quest VI.
 
Royal Scribe's note: When we began compiling material for this collection, we interviewed a few of the many people who have worked on at least one King's Quest. Here are Josh's responses.
 
1. Which King's Quest game(s) did you work on? Doing what? I worked on King's Quest I -SCI, the remake done in 1990. It was my very first project when I came to Sierra; the game had been languishing for awhile because Roberta was so heavily involved with King's Quest V, which was in progress at the same time. While I was officially titled "Producer," Roberta let me get more hands-on: I rewrote most of the actual game text, added a lot of new responses, and slightly altered some of the puzzles. The original game, groundbreaking as it was, was somewhat terse and brief. I tried to make it more fairy tale-ish in its prose, so it would fit in better with the much more detailed King's Quest IV and King's Quest V.
 
I also worked on King's Quest V as the voice of King Graham (and several other voices), a role I reprised briefly in King's Quest VI.
 

[Bludshot]

If we're having a discussion on how KQV could be remade.  I think the only real solution is to scrap everything except the premise of "Mordack wants revenge."

Almost nothing in that game makes any sense.  What kind of warm fertile valley has an arid desert and an icy mountain range within several hundred yards of each other?

[Sir Perceval of Daventry]

If we're having a discussion on how KQV could be remade.  I think the only real solution is to scrap everything except the premise of "Mordack wants revenge."

Almost nothing in that game makes any sense.  What kind of warm fertile valley has an arid desert and an icy mountain range within several hundred yards of each other?

The kind that exists in a fairy tale fantasy world, not in the "everything must be hyperrealistic and gritty" world of 2011.

[MusicallyInspired]

I believe I remember him saying that KQ1SCI was his first project there. Or at least his first big project. I think the former, though...

[DawsonJ]

For those who haven't thoroughly played Space Quest VI, you've gotta check out the KQV reference, starting at time 4:36:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP7VTeTCVCU

[MusicallyInspired]

Hah yes that was classic.

[KatieHal]

What kind of warm fertile valley has an arid desert and an icy mountain range within several hundred yards of each other?

The kind that exists in a fairy tale fantasy world, not in the "everything must be hyperrealistic and gritty" world of 2011.

Proper geography and non-laws of nature defying biomes really aren't what I'd call a "hyperrealistic and gritty" trope.

[Baggins]

What kind of warm fertile valley has an arid desert and an icy mountain range within several hundred yards of each other?

I've personally seen places due to water table division in the rock, or geology, where rather arid area bordered a fertile area, sometimes forests. There are a few places in Nevada and California that are like that. Even Hawaii. The Big Island for example has arid regions, snow covered mountains, and rainforests within only a few miles of each other!

I don't remember if the valley itself was said to be 'warm' as far as I know? There is a reference to it being early spring in the documentation!

The 'icy mountains' are said to be 'several hours away" from the valley, when you first head into the mountains. Not 'yards".

Check out an image of the Coral Pink Sand Dunes in Utah! The dunes are a small desert bordering a forest nearby. It's even got snow sometimes of the year!


Even deserts come in many varieties, depending on where they are located (really just has to do with water precipation levels)!

Here is the smallest desert in the world, near Whitehorse, Canada and Skagway, Alaska!





I don't know if you have ever been to the Grand Canyon? The canyon itself is a desert. The north rim is also quite lush and forested!

[Damar]

Supposed geographical abnormalities never bothered me much.  If I can accept magic and sea monsters in my game, I can accept a desert existing next to a fertile valley and mountains.

As for other possible changes to KQ5, I would agree that Graham should have reasons for going to different places.  If Graham wants his family back it doesn't quite make sense that he'd go mucking about in a forbidden forest.  So I would have it be unclear where Mordack is, outside of "beyond the mountains."  That way Graham has to find clues that give him a more general idea of where to look once he's past the mountains.  Finding out that a witch lives in the forest might spur Graham to seek her out with the idea that magic users might have more information about each other.  It would give him a reason to enter a dangerous forest as well as show his desperation to find his family.  And in the witch's house Graham can find a reference to the beach beyond the mountains and mariners who are aware of the islands beyond (which includes Mordack's).

I'm not sure if Graham needs a reason to enter the desert as I wouldn't want to completely do away with the idea of exploring, but perhaps if there were references of oases in the desert as well as other things of interest that would make it seem more natural for Graham to decide entering a desert is a good idea.

Honestly, I don't know how much I'd enjoy a wise and helpful Cedric.  It is Graham's quest after all.  Personally, I think that part of the reason people don't like Cedric (other than him being annoying) is because we're used to going through these quests and now suddenly we have company.  It's kind of jarring.  I think that having Cedric actually serve a purpose and act as a wise guide might increase that dissonance and actually end up being more annoying than the "POOOOIsonous snake" and "Oooh watch out, you're already dead" Cedric we all love to hate.

[Baggins]

I can accept a desert existing next to a fertile valley and mountains.

...and such phenomena exists in the real world, its not 'magic' its Science!

On a related note that type of thing occured all the way back in Wizard and the Princess, and also occured in KQ3. KQ5 was not the original source of that type of geography!

outside of "beyond the mountains."  

Cedric actually already does say that Mordack is 'beyond the mountains' if you talk to him on certain screens near the moutnains, or look at certain background details. He also says that you will need to search around Serenia and surrounding lands to find things to help you be ready to cross the mountains!

So while its more 'clear' in a way, the game still has ways of telling you that you'll need to gather supplies.

The current game tries to convince you to enter the forest via two methods, the Willow telling her story, and trying to convince him to help her. Mushka also gives you the medallion that is supposed to 'protect from enchantments' from magic users (though strangely has no effect against Mordack, :p).

Cedric we all love to hate.

Speak for yourself :p...  

[Bludshot]

Curses! Defeated by science!

Well maybe I should rephrase my gripe.  Compared to the other installments the setting of KQV felt like a means to an end.  Compared to places like Daventry and the Green Isles, the landscapes in KQV don't stick with you for very long or with any particular strength.  You're not helping the people there nor are they particularly interest in helping you beyond giving them item x for item y scenarios.

MOE had the same problem, a bunch of locales that, while adding some variety to the game, weren't particularly memorable.

I guess as an example think of Gabriel Knight, where you spend most of the game in the same couple of hotspots around New Orleans, but in spite of that you only want to see more of it.

[Baggins]

You're not helping the people there nor are they particularly interest in helping you beyond giving them item x for item y scenarios.

Um, yes you did help people you help alot of people, almost everyone you encounter you help out in some way!

You help the old folks whose business wasn't doing well, by giving them a well crafted pair of shoes (righout out of the elves and the cobbler story).

You help the tailer by finding the golden pin that he believes was stolen from him (and lost in the haystack).

You help the willow and the prince, by defeating the witch, and ending their curse.

You help Rumplestiltskin by returning the Spinning Wheel that can turn straw into gold.

The elves claim you 'helped' them out by giving them the gift of emeralds.

You help save the Rat from a cat.

You help save the ants from a dog!

You help save the bees from a bear!

You help a starving eagle!

You help Icebella by defeating the Yeti!

You help save Cedric.

You befriend and save Cassima and your family!

Almost all the puzzles in the game are about doing good deeds!

Hell even the toymaker says that you are helping him by giving him the marionette! That its worth more than sled he gives in you return, and that he's getting the better deal.

Frankly I could describe that quest setup, being a large part of KQ4, KQ2, and even KQ1! Finding some item, and giving it to some other person, to help their needs!

KQ3 was quite a bit different in that Alexander does alot of stealing for his own needs, and most of those things he steals are used to make spells. He rarely did anything to help anyone! Except for his sister and family in the end! Stealing items all were means to the end of escaping back to Daventry and saving his family!