Opinions on King's Quest VIiI?

[Sir Perceval of Daventry]

Continuing my series of retrospective reviews and opinions on each KQ game, how do you feel about King's Quest VIII: Mask of Eternity? The game had been eagerly awaited since 1994's KQ7, and due to internal struggles and changes at Sierra and a rapidly changing computer game industry, the game's development was besieged with trouble; The game going through three different designs and taking 3 years to produce--Longer than any other Sierra game.

As a result of Sierra founder, CEO, and Chairman Ken Williams' departure as CEO in 1997, Roberta William's influence on the game's design diminished midway through development, which caused much frustration on her part. Failures on the part of Dynamix, which was developing the game's engine, led to the game's release being pushed back several times, from an original, set Christmas 1997 release date.

Roberta and her team had to scramble, building their own engine from scratch and jettisoning multiple game levels, as well as many story and gameplay elements to save time and money. The game cost 3 million to make.

Upon it's long awaited release in November 1998, it was met with mixed to positive reviews by critics but generally negative reviews by adventure game purists. It pushed the series into the era of 3D gaming and was a sandbox-like game: It was the first KQ game in which there were little to no limits upon where you could go, where you look; The first KQ game to feature a truly open world. It was also the first game to feature action and RPG elements, although violence played a role in all previous games. While it sold very well, it's sales were not able to compete with those of true action games and as such the KQ series, along all other adventure game series was put on hiatus by Sierra, until the King's Quest series was officially revived in 2010 by Telltale Games.

[Damar]

Ooh, a Mask of Eternity discussion!

I like MOE for the most part.  It has a lot of atmosphere and some of the best music in all of King's Quest.  My main issue is that I don't like the fact that it's not an adventure game.  I don't really feel like getting into a discussion about whether it's a shooter or what the specific genre is.  The puzzles were practically nonexistent in MOE.  It was mainly simple cause and effect relationships (put lever into slot) and fetch quests to get powerups.

Another major thing that bothered me about MOE was that I felt it didn't meet its full potential.  There were interesting lands that had already been established, but they were dropped to make similar lands for MOE, which then robbed the game of any greater connection that it already had to the rest of King's Quest.  The mountains have snow nymphs and a queen.  But god forbid they reference Queen Icabella!  No, let's make an entirely new queen.

Likewise we already had the Realm of the Dead.  There was no need for the Dimension of Death.  And yes, I know that the explanation is that the people of Daventry had a different belief of the underworld than the Green Isles.  I say this now and for all time: That is stupid and makes no sense.  Different beliefs are find.  But to have those different beliefs then create a completely different realm for real points to a bizarre pluralistic universe.  But whether you want to argue comparative religion in a made-up realm, but point is that creating a new underworld was just unnecessary.  The Realm of the Dead was a pretty massive place, at least up on the surface.  We saw an expansive land and pyramids in the distance.  We could have gone into one of those pyramids and the rest of the game could have played the same as it already does.  It would have needed to be no different than made, but calling the place the Realm of the Dead ties it into the past game.  Also, it would have made more sense for this to have been the Realm of the Dead in revolt because Samhain in KQ6 was immobile.  If his guards revolt, what's he going to do.  With the Dimension of Death, I found myself wondering why Azriel couldn't just teleport out of his prison as he did later in that level.  What was his deal?  Did he just like hanging out there?

Even with Daventry, I would have loved to have at least some tie ins with KQ1.  I liked seeing the town of Daventry, but I would have liked to at least see the well or the bridges or even the goat pen.  Just something.  Just to know that the game was going to throw me a bone and tie in with the past.  But it never happened.  MOE could have been more interesting.  It had a lot of potential that it just tossed away to create a new mythology and land that didn't tie in with anything we'd already seen.  Graham talking about grain silos was not enough.  The portraits in Castle Daventry (which looked nothing like what we'd already seen before) was not enough.  The game was fun in its own way, but it really missed out on being a King's Quest game.

[Sir Perceval of Daventry]

Ooh, a Mask of Eternity discussion!

I like MOE for the most part.  It has a lot of atmosphere and some of the best music in all of King's Quest.  My main issue is that I don't like the fact that it's not an adventure game.  I don't really feel like getting into a discussion about whether it's a shooter or what the specific genre is.  The puzzles were practically nonexistent in MOE.  It was mainly simple cause and effect relationships (put lever into slot) and fetch quests to get powerups.

Another major thing that bothered me about MOE was that I felt it didn't meet its full potential.  There were interesting lands that had already been established, but they were dropped to make similar lands for MOE, which then robbed the game of any greater connection that it already had to the rest of King's Quest.  The mountains have snow nymphs and a queen.  But god forbid they reference Queen Icabella!  No, let's make an entirely new queen.

Likewise we already had the Realm of the Dead.  There was no need for the Dimension of Death.  And yes, I know that the explanation is that the people of Daventry had a different belief of the underworld than the Green Isles.  I say this now and for all time: That is stupid and makes no sense.  Different beliefs are find.  But to have those different beliefs then create a completely different realm for real points to a bizarre pluralistic universe.  But whether you want to argue comparative religion in a made-up realm, but point is that creating a new underworld was just unnecessary.  The Realm of the Dead was a pretty massive place, at least up on the surface.  We saw an expansive land and pyramids in the distance.  We could have gone into one of those pyramids and the rest of the game could have played the same as it already does.  It would have needed to be no different than made, but calling the place the Realm of the Dead ties it into the past game.  Also, it would have made more sense for this to have been the Realm of the Dead in revolt because Samhain in KQ6 was immobile.  If his guards revolt, what's he going to do.  With the Dimension of Death, I found myself wondering why Azriel couldn't just teleport out of his prison as he did later in that level.  What was his deal?  Did he just like hanging out there?

Even with Daventry, I would have loved to have at least some tie ins with KQ1.  I liked seeing the town of Daventry, but I would have liked to at least see the well or the bridges or even the goat pen.  Just something.  Just to know that the game was going to throw me a bone and tie in with the past.  But it never happened.  MOE could have been more interesting.  It had a lot of potential that it just tossed away to create a new mythology and land that didn't tie in with anything we'd already seen.  Graham talking about grain silos was not enough.  The portraits in Castle Daventry (which looked nothing like what we'd already seen before) was not enough.  The game was fun in its own way, but it really missed out on being a King's Quest game.

The portraits in the Castle are the exact portraits of Graham and Valanice from KQ6.
As to the Ice Queen issue--why must there be only one? The idea of revisiting old characters outside of the Royal Family seems kind of boring to me and just limits the series. For fangames it's fun...But anything that expands the KQ universe and makes it that much larger is cool with me.

As to the DoD, it's really up to one's own opinion. The reasoning has been given--It's not like Roberta just forgot; it was specifically intended to be a different place. And we've seen different religions in KQ before--The Druids have their own faith, we see a Christian Monastery in KQ2; There's a Father Death in KQ4, Samhain in KQ6.

Btw--the game was originally going to feature the Well and possibly the part of Daventry seen in KQ1. There was to be four areas in Daventry: Connor's Village, a Daventry City, a Harbor town, and a Seaside Town. All were cut but one due to all the issues with budgets and Dynamix. We were also originally going to get to explore all of Castle Daventry and see Valanice and Rosella as stoned statues, but that was cut too for the same reason.

I do agree the Realm of the Dead is a creepier place...But I don't think that creepiness would've carried over in a 3D version of it, especially with the early, blocky 3D graphics that KQ8 has. One thing I don't like about the game is the Zombies. In KQ4 and 8 they're literally creepy walking corpses, rotting bodies. In KQ8 they look like mummies. I like creepier zombies better.

[DawsonJ]

Well, Roberta always red-shirted (think Star Trek) the lands from older games, so DoD makes sense from her creative POV. It was one of trademarks, you could say; she never expanded lands, she just dropped them to expand the games' world.

[Damar]

The portraits in the Castle are the exact portraits of Graham and Valanice from KQ6.
As to the Ice Queen issue--why must there be only one? The idea of revisiting old characters outside of the Royal Family seems kind of boring to me and just limits the series. For fangames it's fun...But anything that expands the KQ universe and makes it that much larger is cool with me.

As to the DoD, it's really up to one's own opinion. The reasoning has been given--It's not like Roberta just forgot; it was specifically intended to be a different place. And we've seen different religions in KQ before--The Druids have their own faith, we see a Christian Monastery in KQ2; There's a Father Death in KQ4, Samhain in KQ6.

Yeah, I know the portraits are the same.  It's not enough, though because the characters are MIA.  As for revisiting old characters, your right, it can limit the series.  The difference here, though, is that there was little else tying MOE to the known world of King's Quest.  It didn't feel like it had an anchor in the world, therefore some familiarity would have been needed.  When you didn't get it in Daventry, other lands could have been used.  Also, Queen Freesa looks and acts a lot like Queen Icabella.  It's not stunt casting when they're already basically the same character.  Also, since the goal of Mask of Eternity is to search the known world for mask pieces, it wouldn't feel like too much to actually have Connor search the known world.

And yes, I know that Roberta chose to add the Dimension of Death.  And I do know that we've seen different religions in King's Quest.  I've seen different religions in real life.  That doesn't mean I expect each one to have its own actual afterlife.  Not even actual puralists believe that.  They'll believe that each religion is a possible way to the afterlife and that it's belief that counts.  They don't believe that every single religion carries its own special afterlife.  If I'm a Christian and you're a Buddhist, would it make sense if you die and get reincarnated while I die and suddenly discover that there's a Christian heaven and hell?  Not only is that weird, but the concepts are mutually exclusive.  The issue I take with the Dimension of Death is why.  Why actually create a new underworld that is very similar in many respects to the one already in existence in series continuity?  Both have an ancient feel.  Both have organic components (actually, a heart beating to keep the whole place going makes more sense in the Geiger inspired Realm of the Dead than it did in the Dimension of Death.)  And actually, the Realm of the Dead wasn't all that organic as a whole anyway.  The entryway to the Lord of the Dead was, but the surface and whatever else was up there was not.  It kind of gave the feeling that the entire entry to the Lord of the Dead was just a massive outgrowing of Samhain and his throne.  Oh, and of course both realms have skeleton guards.  And to the best of my knowledge there was no Father Death in KQ4.  That was the companion that expanded the concept of Father Death from a metaphorical line to an actual belief.  I mean, it's getting colder out.  If I said, "ooh, Jack Frost is really out in force today!" would you assume that there's actually a Jack Frost?  No, it's a figure of speech.  So is the fact that Father Death is hovering near Graham.  It's flashy writing, not a mythology.  Or at least it wasn't until Peter Spear decided it was when he wrote the companion.

My point is that tying everything together isn't always necessary, but when you have a game that already is a departure stylistically and storywise from previous installments, then some points of similarity really go a long way.  MOE is fun but it doesn't feel like a King's Quest stylistically, graphically, or in its actions.  Any indication it gives that you're in the same universe (Graham's grain silo and a truncated castle sequence) just aren't enough because everything else, down to the actual established mythology, has been changed.  The point of MOE was to explore the known world.  And we did.  It just wasn't any world we'd ever visited before, even when there were similarities.  And that's what I mean by a missed potential.

[MusicallyInspired]

I can see her from a creative developer's standpoint just adding everything because why wouldn't you want more to wander around in? King's Quest was never about making much sense anyway. Why can't there be two forms of afterlife/underworld? Or five?

[Lambonius]

I can't.

I just...can't.

Not without him.

Not without Baggins.

It just feels so very empty.

[DawsonJ]

I can't.

I just...can't.

Not without him.

Not without Baggins.

It just feels so very empty.

I understand. Where is Baggins?

[Lambonius]

I can't.

I just...can't.

Not without him.

Not without Baggins.

It just feels so very empty.

I understand. Where is Baggins?

Still banned, I think.

I say we start up a Rudy-style chant until the powers that be let him play, and then slow-clap when he brings this thread into the end zone.

[DawsonJ]

I need him back; he was helping me with analyzing MoE files - and giving me a reason to want to analyze a game I don't particularly like. I just now found the thread where he was banned. It made sense, but it's a bummer at the same time.

[Bludshot]

I can't help but be amused that after cutesy Disney animation didn't work for Roberta, she decided decapitating Spriggans would be the next sensible leap.

[Sir Perceval of Daventry]

I can't help but be amused that after cutesy Disney animation didn't work for Roberta, she decided decapitating Spriggans would be the next sensible leap.

Kind of sad really. She couldn't win.

[Bludshot]

I can't help but be amused that after cutesy Disney animation didn't work for Roberta, she decided decapitating Spriggans would be the next sensible leap.

Kind of sad really. She couldn't win.

Why couldn't she win? Just because someone doesn't succeed doesn't mean they were doomed from the start.

[Blackthorne]

You know, I think MOE is begging for a remake.  Not in a classic VGA style, but a remake using a modern 3D engine - and with some of those cut ideas re-implemented.   I think it was a little too ambitious for it's time.  Maybe with today's engines and gameplay, it could be an amazing game.


Bt

[Numbers]

I've always found it bizarre how inconsistent the series becomes after KQV.  KQVI is suddenly much more serious and dramatic than the previous games (minus the Isle of Wonder, obviously--that place was ridiculous).  KQVII, the most light-hearted game in the series, is then followed by the darkest in MoE.  If someone unfamiliar with the series played The Princeless Bride and Mask of Eternity back-to-back, they wouldn't know that both games were made by the same company, let alone set in the same universe.  I'm not trashing these games, mind you, I'm just pointing out how bipolar the overall tone is.

[Lambonius]

I've always found it bizarre how inconsistent the series becomes after KQV.  KQVI is suddenly much more serious and dramatic than the previous games (minus the Isle of Wonder, obviously--that place was ridiculous).  KQVII, the most light-hearted game in the series, is then followed by the darkest in MoE.  If someone unfamiliar with the series played The Princeless Bride and Mask of Eternity back-to-back, they wouldn't know that both games were made by the same company, let alone set in the same universe.  I'm not trashing these games, mind you, I'm just pointing out how bipolar the overall tone is.

I think this is one of the major weaknesses of the series as a whole, and one of the major weaknesses of Sierra in general.  The drive to always be the innovator led to many a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" fiasco.  Hence KQ6-8, and GK2 and 3.

[Sir Perceval of Daventry]

I've always found it bizarre how inconsistent the series becomes after KQV.  KQVI is suddenly much more serious and dramatic than the previous games (minus the Isle of Wonder, obviously--that place was ridiculous).  KQVII, the most light-hearted game in the series, is then followed by the darkest in MoE.  If someone unfamiliar with the series played The Princeless Bride and Mask of Eternity back-to-back, they wouldn't know that both games were made by the same company, let alone set in the same universe.  I'm not trashing these games, mind you, I'm just pointing out how bipolar the overall tone is.

Well, 6 is the way it is because of Jane Jensen's influence--Roberta admitted it's tone was different because she had a different writer working with her. It was the first time she had someone else work on a KQ game with her as a designer.

7 was meant to be purposefully Disney-like, was the kind of game Roberta had always wanted to do.

KQ8 was another experiment in that Roberta wanted to try to go a more JRR Tolkien direction.

She wrote in a post that KQ is basically whatever she's feeling at the moment, which is why the series changed a lot over the years. That her mood and what she wants for the series in the moment is reflected in the game. She considered KQ3 a very dark game because it reflected her mood at the time.

[Numbers]

KQ3 was certainly darker than the first two.  I think that the VGA remakes did a good job in their portrayal of the depressing atmosphere, especially in the music department.  I liked how the IA remake let you explore Daventry while playing somber piano music in the background.  The AGDI remake also did a good job making you feel oppressed; between hearing that familiar tune as you cast spells, to escaping from Llewdor, only to work as a cabin boy for the pirates, etc.

Of course we're getting off-topic now, but I've lurked around these forums enough to know that people rarely stay on-topic for more than a couple pages around here.

[DawsonJ]

I wish MoE would've had characters with more personality; The Gnomes just said the same two things, with the exception of the salespeople and the old man. Almost all of the characters in the game were space-fillers - like the Gnomes - and enemies.



By the way, if anyone wants the internal scripts for MoE, I've finally uploaded them to MediaFire:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/mcae6ci0hinft7v/MoEScripts.zip

[Bludshot]

I wish MoE would've had characters with more personality; The Gnomes just said the same two things, with the exception of the salespeople and the old man. Almost all of the characters in the game were space-fillers - like the Gnomes - and enemies.



By the way, if anyone wants the internal scripts for MoE, I've finally uploaded them to MediaFire:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/mcae6ci0hinft7v/MoEScripts.zip

I especially love how the 'Barren Region' is the most populated map in the game.