Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts

[Numbers]

Eh, between this game and KQ6, I think we've seen enough of the Green Isles.  Bring on the Dreamworld!

I'm assuming that the strange castle behind the Ranger near the end of the episode was the city of Astratos that the Black Widow mentioned way back in episode two.  Whether or not it is Astratos, it looks pretty trippy--and visually more interesting than most of the actual environments from the official games.

[Tinu]

Phew, finally done.

I've left my feedback on the fight and the box puzzle in the other thread so I won't recap it here.

The plot progression was great this time around. Would really appreciate if there was some way to replay just certain cutscenes like the story of Pandora like a memory option at the main title page that unlocks as the game progresses.

Having to travel to and fro the islands got really tedious as the game went on though. It would've been nice to be able to skip through some of it after the first time around, like the Winged One's city and the hedge maze.

I also found some of the puzzles to be a little unintuitive, like at one point I was just giving up and using every item in my inventory on random items/people.

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

Giving the statue to the Winged artist who didn't want to have anything to do with me was one of those 'never know unless you try' moments because there was really nothing to indicate that he might help outside of the Narrator saying 'he might be able to help'. I mean, he practically gave me the 'talk to the hand' from the get go.

Using the emerald on the painting was also a 'walkthrough pls' moment for me. The description said it could capture/store a memory, that made me think that it was to be used on a person, but apparently it was just a glorified camera. wat.

[Lenny318]

I finally finished it and I must say it was wonderful and I can't wait for Episode 5 but I also agree that it may not be my favorite part so far, but it's actually close.  I loved the visuals, the music (I wanted to hang around Pan and not distract the Muses just to listen to the music), the voice acting, the plot, and everything overall.

So most of my issues probably just have to do with me, like solving certain puzzles on accident

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

I made the brush before even finding the Winged People

and not figuring out others.

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

I thought the Druid fruit was for Valanice or for some purpose greater than duplicating the paining.

 I also made too many assumptions about where I could and couldn't go, as did my brother and dad when they played together

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

Mainly with the Winged People, the artists' place is obviously a place you can get to, but after clicking a house or two and hearing that you don't want to go there, you may miss out on talking to Azure, and if you were me and talked to Azure first, I just assumed you couldn't even go to the wall at all until you summoned the four winds, so I didn't know where to play the instruments, again that's a "durrr" moment for me.

I did enjoy dying to actually figure out what had to be done

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

I think I died in every way possible in Chessboard Land, once cause I wanted to talk to them again for fun, once cause I didn't paint the piece, and then because the King wasn't moving or talking.  But I still wanna know where the real king is...

I also got a little frustrated with the amount of time it took to get from place to place but I think that's mostly due to the fact that it reminded me of how I didn't know what to do, if I had a plan or an idea, it didn't bother me as much.

Since there's already a thread about the puzzle and battle at the end I won't comment much about it, I'll just say that overall I liked them, even the glitch I encountered where the battle just kinda went on without me and I died... twice... in the same fight.  I found it humorous it was a nice break.  I also thought the progression of the music as the game went on was amazingly awesome!

The main thing I'm worried about is how much of the remaining plot/story is going to get attention in the final chapter.  I was kind of hoping the whole "prophesy" thing with regards to Alexander and Rosella would be explained a little more but it still focused on Graham and Valanice, which is cool but again, with one chapter remaining, I'm just wondering if that will be fully explained.  I'm still hoping Edgar breaks out some awesome in the final chapter.  Since I love that guy and have the audio of his conversation with Graham that was available on this site years ago, I did notice a few of his lines were cut, I don't have any major thoughts or issues with that, I just noticed it so I'll probably wonder why they were cut.  If Episode 5 is long in order to fit everything in, I won't complain at all  

If I think of more I'll edit this and add it in...

You guys have done excellent work and I am loving these games!

[DawsonJ]

I remember someone (Katie, I believe) saying that in this Episode, we would find out the source of the shears that fly in front of us in Episode 3. But, I didn't see any source for those, especially since no one had those - or even mentioned them - during the chess match. Did I miss something?

Edit:
Katie's comments on the shears are near the bottom:
http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=10036.60

[KatieHal]

 The 'why' of it is that Pandora's Box was opened, and things are moving backwards/being undone. Hence Sing Sing's chicks are eggs, the Prince is a Beast again, the shears are being thrown again, etc.

[DawsonJ]

The 'why' of it is that Pandora's Box was opened, and things are moving backwards/being undone. Hence Sing Sing's chicks are eggs, the Prince is a Beast again, the shears are being thrown again, etc.

I understand the reversing of time, but the celebration itself isn't happening at that time. So who threw the shears?

That seems comparable to going back in time, diverting the attention of JFK's shooter, just to have the gun shoot the president by itself.
No people around means the shears learned how to fly on their own. 
Hence, my confusion.

[snabbott]

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

But I still wanna know where the real king is...

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

If I had to be around those queens, I think I'd go missing, too - where nobody would ever find me!

[writerlove]

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

But I still wanna know where the real king is...

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

If I had to be around those queens, I think I'd go missing, too - where nobody would ever find me!

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

I would too! They would drive me absolutely insane!

[fluxmaster]

Overall, a great episode.

The best part about opening Pandora's box and the fight scene was that they were both at the end, so that you could skip them without missing any of the adventure play.  I stopped playing when I got to the Pandora's box part and watched the rest on Let's Play Videos.  As episode 5 approaches, I may decide to play them, but, for the moment, I am finished playing this episode.

I know that many others have commented on the Pandora's Box sequence, but I want to weigh in on why I didn't like it.  The problem for me was not the game mechanism, but the fact that no understanding whatsoever of the symbols was required to complete the puzzle.  In fact, you're not manipulating the symbols at all, but merely assembling the four corners of each symbols to form a complete symbol.  The actual symbols used were totally irrelevant to anything.  You could have used letters of the alphabet, Egyptian hieroglyphics, or Chinese ideograms, and the puzzle would have been the same.  I think you were trying not to make the puzzle too hard but ended up making it extremely tedious and frustrating instead.

I realize that your intention was to invoke the frustration that Valanice must have been feeling trying to open the box.  That brings to mind an old flight simulator that Sierra put out in its early days.  In order to invoke in the user the feeling of danger and responsibility that the pilot must face, the program was designed such that, if the user crashed the plane, the program would crash the user's computer and mess up his hard drive.  Needless to say, it didn't go over too well.

By contrast, let me give you an example of what I consider to be an excellent puzzle involving symbols.  It occurs in the game King's Quest III Plus:  An Heir Raising Tale by Crystal Shard Games.  I'm not giving this example to plug the game, even though I was listed in the credits as a beta tester.  I'm doing so because I really like this puzzle.  In this game, in order to make the spells, you actually have to decode the symbols in the spell book, and in order to decode the symbols, you have to find two separate documents which function as a sort of Rosetta Stone.  I discuss this in this thread:

http://www.agdinteractive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=15412

If you had used symbols that the user had to actually decode and understand, then you could have kept the same mechanism of the spinning circles, but had complete symbols on the spinning wheels instead of fragments, and the puzzle would have been interesting rather than merely tedious and frustrating.  The symbols could have represented, for example, numbers and directions such as left and right, and it could have been like opening a combination lock.

However, the fight scene that came later looked more interesting, so, as I've said, as episode 5 approaches, I may try to complete Pandora's box in order to get to the fight scene.

[KatieHal]

The symbols are the zodiac symbols for specific reasons--some of which have been hinted at already, but you're right, it hasn't been spelled out thus far. That is something we perhaps could have done more of earlier on, to help with this puzzle.

Also, ooo, a KQ remake I haven't heard played before! Where might one download this from?

[fluxmaster]

Also, ooo, a KQ remake I haven't heard played before! Where might one download this from?

The link was actually provided in my previous post (somewhat hidden), but here it is again:

http://www.crystalshard.net/index.php?p=8#

From The Vault, click on the link for Kings Quest III+ on the left, then click on the Download link on the right.

A couple of caveats:

• You can only play the part in Llewdor and the encounter with the abominable snowman.  Most of the rest of the game is walkable, though.
• You have to play from the beginning through to the encounter with Medusa all in one sitting; otherwise, the game will crash when you try to deal with Medusa or with the bandit in the treehouse.  After you have dealt with Medusa, you can save the game and finish it another day.

After you've played the part in Llewdor, check my thread above for how to see the ending of the game.

[DawsonJ]

The symbols are the zodiac symbols for specific reasons--some of which have been hinted at already, but you're right, it hasn't been spelled out thus far. That is something we perhaps could have done more of earlier on, to help with this puzzle.

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

The Zodiac symbols are the Silver Cloaks, as they gave themselves up to seal the great evil - Shadrack. Though, because Pandora sealed the Box that she stole for THEM, their symbols represent their efforts in the primary sealing process. Or, possibly, she used some of their power.

Right?

[tessspoon]

Also, ooo, a KQ remake I haven't heard played before! Where might one download this from?

I had some trouble getting to run at first, there was some talk about workarounds here.

A couple of caveats:

• You can only play the part in Llewdor and the encounter with the abominable snowman.  Most of the rest of the game is walkable, though.
• You have to play from the beginning through to the encounter with Medusa all in one sitting; otherwise, the game will crash when you try to deal with Medusa or with the bandit in the treehouse.  After you have dealt with Medusa, you can save the game and finish it another day.

After you've played the part in Llewdor, check my thread above for how to see the ending of the game.

Are you supposed to be able to defeat Manannan? From what I remember the walkthrough didn't go that far and I got stuck, not sure if I was even able to go on.

[snabbott]

The symbols are the zodiac symbols for specific reasons--some of which have been hinted at already, but you're right, it hasn't been spelled out thus far. That is something we perhaps could have done more of earlier on, to help with this puzzle.

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

The Zodiac symbols are the Silver Cloaks, as they gave themselves up to seal the great evil - Shadrack. Though, because Pandora sealed the Box that she stole for THEM, their symbols represent their efforts in the primary sealing process. Or, possibly, she used some of their power.

Right?

Another interesting theory...

[KatieHal]

What snabbott said! 

[drusain]

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

Will Shadrack say more Sith lines? There's already the "this could work to our advantage" line from Phantom Menace said by Palpatine at the end of Ep.3 and "sometimes the pupil does surpass the master!" which was close to Vader's line in New Hope at the end of Ep.4

If Manannan isn't the Ranger I hope this is some big build up where Shadrack will try to kill Valanice and Manannan will stop Shadrack vis-a-vis Vader stops Palpatine from killing Luke. Shadrack can even use a Palpatine line from Revenge of the Sith and say "Are you threatening me, Master Jedi Brother Manannan?"  

[Thaumaturge]

Hmm...  I do think that fluxmaster may have a point -his suggestion of basing the puzzle on selection from the wheels of specific symbols based on understanding of them, rather than building up symbols from parts, may well have strengthened the puzzle: it may have tied it into the story even more tightly, reduced frustration by reducing the number of selections called for per symbol and increased tension by allowing more frequent feedback (imagine, for example, Shadrack making threats or accusing Valanice of "throwing" the puzzle every few incorrect selections).

However, I do see the relevance of the symbols being zodiacal, I do believe.  So, how about this: through the game, the player is presented with little pieces of information regarding the Silver Cloaks, and in particular how they related to each other and to the symbols.  In the unlocking sequence, this information is repeated on the wall behind the puzzle, perhaps in a symbolic form calling for a little bit of interpretation, but primarily serving as a reminder for players who were paying attention and a repetition for those who weren't.  The puzzle then becomes a matter of determining the correct next symbol in order, finding it on the wheels, and finally selecting it, perhaps against some of the difficulty-inducing measures used in the game (the fading of the wheels, for example).  Difficulty levels might then affect the number of incorrect guesses that one is allowed before the puzzle resets, perhaps with some means of changing the order (perhaps by having that order be dependent on clues given on the box?), and/or the number of incorrect guesses or resets before Shadrack decides that you're trying to trick him and kills both Rosella and Valanice.

[Numbers]

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

Will Shadrack say more Sith lines? There's already the "this could work to our advantage" line from Phantom Menace said by Palpatine at the end of Ep.3 and "sometimes the pupil does surpass the master!" which was close to Vader's line in New Hope at the end of Ep.4

If Manannan isn't the Ranger I hope this is some big build up where Shadrack will try to kill Valanice and Manannan will stop Shadrack vis-a-vis Vader stops Palpatine from killing Luke. Shadrack can even use a Palpatine line from Revenge of the Sith and say "Are you threatening me, Master Jedi Brother Manannan?" 

This reminds me of a parody of Revenge of the Sith I saw a while ago.

Palpatine:  I think we can use this to our advantage...
Underling:  I--I'm afraid I don't see how, my Lord.
Palpatine:  Oh, it's just one of those things I say from time to time, you'll get used to it.

[fluxmaster]

Are you supposed to be able to defeat Manannan? From what I remember the walkthrough didn't go that far and I got stuck, not sure if I was even able to go on.

Not without cheating.  However, there is a "Stuff Pockets" function that lets you get every possible inventory item.  You can use it to get the tainted porridge and then give the porridge to Manannan.  But you must use it early in the game.  If you try to use it late in the game, Manannan will insist on eating fruit and refuse the porridge.  Also, there is a graphical glitch when Manannan turns into a cat.

But, yeah, if we knew the reason that Valanice had to assemble the zodiacal signs, then the puzzle would make more sense.

[daventry]

When will Ep5 come out and will it Explain All, since Ep4 dident explain Anything and just added More Confusion. 

I have a sad feeling that Ep5 will be rushed with a quick ending so that the Developers can get on with Cognition, i mean the Whole Site is ready for it.