Author Topic: Feedback on the fight  (Read 38994 times)

Offline joedoebloke

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2011, 12:35:37 PM »
I have a better idea.  The battle sequence and adventure sequence (for E5) should be a window option (play difficult puzzle, play battle sequence).  But here is the difference compared to the other forum users ...

One playable character (say, Princess Rosella or Queen Valanice) solves a difficult puzzle that will aid in the final battle, while (King Alexander or King Graham) fights Manaanan &/or Shadrack in the background (with the solved puzzle) to win the series.

Vice-versa for the other playable character (say, King Alexander or King Graham) who battles Manaanan &/or Shadrack, with Rosella or Valanice in the background solving a puzzle that will aid in the final battle.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 12:40:31 PM by joedoebloke »

Offline Karens12345

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2011, 05:10:08 PM »
yeah, Im back with a vengeance!!  
kidding :)

 joedoebloke; that would be awesome, kinda reminds me of Dragon Age and the chaos when everyone ran their own way and you had to choose your characters and strategy for the final showdown. You really felt you were part of the big war, epic gameplay,
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 05:12:34 PM by Karens12345 »

Offline SilverTrumpet

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2011, 06:43:31 PM »
My fight has been really bugged, of course on the tries when I'm doing well. It seems that sometimes the game thinks I've clicked on an action when I haven't/haven't even had the opportunity to! This has happened multiple rounds, but the actions haven't "stacked" like this before...

So this time, Graham was able to dodge right, while in water-defense, and I still had an inch of health when I got the first death message (while dodging). I got the second while he was "stuck" in the rigging, but i also had a walk cursor. I clicked to make the message disappear (don't actually remember what happened), now: I am stuck with a crown cursor, Shadrack is not moving at all, Graham's health is empty but he is standing in fight-stance, and I can't do anything. Help please?

Offline joedoebloke

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2011, 09:38:27 PM »
My fight has been really bugged, of course on the tries when I'm doing well. It seems that sometimes the game thinks I've clicked on an action when I haven't/haven't even had the opportunity to! This has happened multiple rounds, but the actions haven't "stacked" like this before...

So this time, Graham was able to dodge right, while in water-defense, and I still had an inch of health when I got the first death message (while dodging). I got the second while he was "stuck" in the rigging, but i also had a walk cursor. I clicked to make the message disappear (don't actually remember what happened), now: I am stuck with a crown cursor, Shadrack is not moving at all, Graham's health is empty but he is standing in fight-stance, and I can't do anything. Help please?

This is the FAN FEEDBACK page, NOT the HINTS page.

Offline DeadDancers

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2011, 05:31:00 AM »
I liked how, after the silver cloak built your amulet for you, you continued fighting with full health.

This allowed the player to use the first part of the fight to learn what the black cloak's attacks looked like, making failure in the second part of the fight more likely to be from player error than simply not knowing what to expect/how to react. (Excluding the time taken to learn when a defence would or would not work with what)


A more generous margin of error between the player recognising an attack and reacting to it might be nice - when I got the fight scene reacting smoothly, it was by mashing the attack/defence/dodge button so that the second the game allowed the input, it would be done. This was only achievable to me by dying often enough to really be comfortable with what the attacks looked like at their earliest points.

Which leads me to another thought - maybe reduce the damage that Graham takes so he can survive a little more trial and error?

Lightning: I never nailed down which way I'm supposed to dodge. Is it random?

And finally - those earth attack animations were hilarious. :D

Offline SilverTrumpet

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2011, 06:57:02 AM »
This is the FAN FEEDBACK page, NOT the HINTS page.

Thank you for your input, but I was trying to talk about an apparent bug. I already have a pretty good idea of what I am supposed to do, hence "when I am doing well".

The game isn't frozen or anything, I just can't do anything because I've got the crown cursor and Graham is supposed to be dead. He has no health. I want to know if there's a way to salvage this, or if I have to start back from
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Offline wilco64256

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2011, 07:56:57 AM »
We have seen that on totally random occasions the fight does lock up like that and stops progressing.  When that happens just kill the game and start it back up - when you choose to Restore a game you'll see on called "Shadrack Fight" that starts you right back at the beginning of that part.  We forced the game to create that specifically so people wouldn't have to play all the way through the crypt puzzle again in situations like this.
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Offline SilverTrumpet

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2011, 09:03:52 AM »
Thank you very much!

Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2011, 10:50:19 AM »
Yeah, like Weldon said, you can start the game right back up and try again. My game locked up on the final fight, right before I was going to defeat Shadrack. Luckily, I figured out the patterns of all of his attacks, so I was able to beat him pretty easily.

After beating the episode, I have to say, the fight wasn't that bad. I liked Cesar's vision of mixing an RPG battle with an adventure game. Not bad at all. But I do understand why some would prefer something else.

Somebody suggested having the characters split the work at beating Shadrack. Cool idea, but it would be better if each of the characters were still trapped in their dream dimensions. Rather than being unified, they would be split in their own worlds but could still battle Shadrack as a team. A puzzle solved in one dimension could open up something in another dimension. The player will have to switch between the four or however many characters to get past the obstacles.
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Offline Boogeyman

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2011, 04:48:26 PM »
I really enjoyed the fight, even though Graham did go swimming a number of times, and the game actually hung once. (Graham and Shadrack weren't doing anything, and the cursor was a crown.)
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Offline Datadog

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2011, 05:28:28 PM »
I figured out his attacks after 3-4 tries, but I would just lose the part where Shadrack rocks the boat. The whole balancing act thing isn't covered in the battle tutorial so it's very easy to get him down to 10% health only to get wiped out with one hit there. There's barely any time to figure out how to catch your balance. I had to wait several tries for a fight where he didn't rock the boat at all before I could properly beat him.

Offline maatathena

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2011, 08:48:22 PM »
I didn't enjoy the Tower Sequence in the last chapter, and I did not enjoy the fight here.  It took me 6-7 tries to get it right, so luckily it wasn't insanely frustrating, but it left a bad taste in my mouth after what was otherwise an incredibly enjoyable adventuring chapter.  

If you MUST have a sequence like this, then yes for heaven's sake make it slower for think time and shorter.  

I can't remember similar instances from all games, but since I recently replayed KQ6 (which is of course the best!)  I noted twice in the game where you have to react in "battle" very quickly.  One is with the minotaur, where you just have to get the right item and do it quickly.  It might take you a few tries to get the right item, but its just one quick thing.  The other is with Ali in the tower, and again, its one quick move, so at max you would need to do it 2-3 times.  Plus, the programming made it as easy as possible by automatically putting the correct item as your icon.  Or as someone reminded me in another thread, the end of KQ5 - you have 4 possibilities, you have time to think though you do have to be a bit quick with the clicking.  Its a battle/puzzle.

None of the "favored" KQ games had sequences like these, just MOE which was one reason I hated and never finished it.  I don't game anymore for the most part because I HATE games that require speed in battle.  

That being said, this could have been more like a puzzle.  You see what Shadrack is about to do, get plenty of time to pick the correct reaction, and go from there.  This could have been fun and not so annoying.

On another note, while I got the box puzzle concept easily enough, it took me bloody forever to do with the circles disappearing.  And that was on easy, I shudder to think how long it would take on "normal".  And it got REALLY annoying when I would try to click on a symbol as it was disappearing and get the narrator whining instead.  I would have disabled the narrator there, it wasn't helpful and it just contributed to me wanting to throw my laptop across the room.  Also, 12 seemed excessive, it would have been more interesting to have a puzzle about which 4 to do, and then assemble those.  
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 08:56:13 PM by maatathena »

Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2011, 10:04:13 PM »
That being said, this could have been more like a puzzle.

It was.  :-\

You see what Shadrack is about to do, get plenty of time to pick the correct reaction, and go from there.

That's what you were supposed to do for this sequence. Were you guessing which attack you should do next, or did you actually pay attention to what Shadrack was doing?
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Offline maatathena

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2011, 10:28:51 PM »
I paid attention, but I had literally a second to react, and often time in my haste I would click the wrong thing, and boom I am losing (or dead instantly in the case of being hit by a wave).  Not to mention that I had to play it and die about 3 times to get the pattern.  Then I played it and died 3 more times because even if I knew what move I needed to do, I couldn't always hit it fast enough.  If you are not used to playing these kinds of sequences, they are very difficult, and not welcome because to me they are not enjoyable. 

And when I mean it should be more like a puzzle, there should be some thinking to it.  There is no reason why I should use "water" against a certain move, its the right move because the programmer decided it should be, not because it made logical sense.  Whereas in KQ5's end, when the wizard becomes a snake, it makes sense to turn into a mongoose.  I can't think of a sequence from old KQ where you HAD to die several times for trial and error. 

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2011, 10:38:36 PM »
Gotta wonder though:
Those who hate Mask, why are you ok with this game having action sequences so far, and possibly more to come?

Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2011, 01:26:56 AM »
There is no reason why I should use "water" against a certain move, its the right move because the programmer decided it should be, not because it made logical sense.

You should use "water" against that certain move, because the tutorial tells you to use it against that certain move. I admit, there was a trial and error factor to it, but it wasn't completely illogical. When you see the lightning appearing in the clouds to the left, you dodge right. When you see the boat tilt in one direction, you dodge into the other direction. That's how you avoid dying.

Gotta wonder though:
Those who hate Mask, why are you ok with this game having action sequences so far, and possibly more to come?

I'm not sure who you are directing this comment to, but I was a huge fan of Mask and felt like the action sequences were a fresh idea. I expect people to be annoyed with it, but it's because they are not used to it. If they get better at it, they'll probably be more immersed into the experience.
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Offline oberonqa

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #56 on: November 13, 2011, 09:04:11 PM »
Gotta wonder though:
Those who hate Mask, why are you ok with this game having action sequences so far, and possibly more to come?

I'm not a big fan of Mask... but not because of the emphasis on action sequences.  I'm not a big fan of Mask because it didn't feel like a KQ game as far as I was concerned.  The emphasis was on combat as opposed to puzzles, which I don't think a KQ game should have (my opinion).  The puzzles the game did have were rudimentary at best and were more environmental-based than anything else... again something which a KQ game shouldn't have (my opinion).

As for the action sequences in TSL, I don't like them because they are poorly implemented... simple as that.  I applaud Cez for trying to think outside the box and explore new gameplay territory... it's gutsy and it takes guts to be innovative.  But the way the action sequences are implemented are just a mess.  It's one thing to try to get the player to empathize with Valanice by making the player feel confounded and frustrated... it's quite another thing to literally beat the player upside the head with what is basically asinine mechanics (and I'm looking squarely at the rotation speed of the wheels, the fade-mechanic of the wheels, and the random placement of each wheel).  That is absurd not only from a design standpoint (name one successful game that introduces a new gameplay mechanic in the final moments of the game... I dare you), but it's absurd from a storytelling standpoint.  If the goal of a situation is to make the player feel a certain way about said situation, you provide stimuli that makes the player feel what you want them to feel via set design, lighting, music, and story devices.  To put it bluntly, you had already achieved all of this before the box puzzle even began.  You had designed the set to be ominous.... lit it in such a way as to evoke a feeling of dread, and had some pretty good music playing.  You also had the great story device that was Shadrack threatening to kill Rosella if Valanice didn't open the box.  You didn't need anything else.  You had set everything up perfectly right there.  You could have presented the rotating wheels by itself and that would have been fine.  The spirit of the puzzle would have been maintained and players such as myself would probably be talking about how fun the puzzle was.  The player would also have felt a sense of accomplishment at having saved Rosella after opening the box... as opposed to feeling a sense of accomplishment for having the raw tenacity to keep on clicking.  The box puzzle as it is presented in EP4 is poorly implemented and failed at what Cez stated his intentions were for the puzzle (which was to make players feel like they were in Valanice's shoes, desperate to open the box in order to save her daughter).  This doesn't hit upon the UI design of the puzzle, I might add.  I covered that in the feedback thread... no need to rehash.

As for the boat confrontation... it would have been fine except for the silly boat rocking mechanic.  You gave a tutorial that covered the use of some of the features of the amulet, but then you make the amulet spin around while the boat is rocking?!?!?  I can only assume that Cez's intentions here was to make the player feel as off-balanced as Graham was when Shadrack was rocking the boat.  Yet again, this is absurd from a design standpoint for the same reasons why it was absurd during the box puzzle.  You shouldn't have to rely on gameplay mechanics to make a player feel a certain way.  That's what the story, visuals, and music are for.  In both instances during EP4, I didn't feel anything like what I was supposed to feel, at least according to Cez.  During the box puzzle I was angry as all heck at the mechanics which took me OUT of the game and caused me to focus on keeping my temper in check so I could finish the blasted thing.  During the boat fight, I was angry as all heck at the spinning amulet BS which again took me OUT of the game and caused me to focus on keeping my temper in check so I could finish the blasted thing.  

Anytime you have players focus on finishing something, you have failed.  Because at that point, they have ceased thinking about the game as an enjoyable experience and have instead starting thinking of it as something they must... suffer... through.  Kind of like how you have to suffer through waiting in line at the grocery store in order to check out.  Kind of like how you have to suffer through paying your taxes.  Is that really what TSL is supposed to be?  I for one don't much like the idea of lumping TSL in the same category as grocery lines and tax collectors.  

If you want to do action sequences, your going to have to do them properly.  Take a look at the Assassin's Creed series if you want an example of how to do action sequences properly.  In those games, new gameplay mechanics are introduced and the player is given the opportunity to grow into the gameplay mechanic gradually.  Then, once the player has grown accustomed to the new gameplay mechanic, then the designers start utilizing the gameplay mechanics in gradually more complex action sequences.  You don't see a single action sequence in any of the AC games that just throws something new at the player without giving the player time to get used to it first.  

If Assassin's Creed isn't quite your cup of tea.... then take a look at Heavy Rain.  Heavy Rain uses a lot of gameplay mechanics over the course of the game, but each gameplay mechanic is introduced to the player and the player is given time to work with the new mechanic before being thrust into complicated action sequences.  By the time the player reaches the end of Heavy Rain, the designers can throw out complex action sequences which require a great deal of hand-eye coordination and memory-retention because the player has reached a certain degree of competency with the gameplay mechanics.

To put it another way, games with action sequences should be built like a pyramid.  Just like a pyramid is built from the foundation up to the tip, so too must games with action sequences be built from the foundation to the tip.  The foundation of the pyramid is the building blocks of the action sequence, which would be the gameplay mechanics that the action sequence you are designing utilizes.  Each of these building blocks introduce the player to a specific mechanic.  The next level of the pyramid are blocks that use the mechanics from the foundation in a more complex fashion.  The next level up from that is the tip of the pyramid and is where the most complex and challenging sequences should be located.  Players start at the bottom of the pyramid and work their way up to the top, gaining familiarity and confidence as they progress.  By the time they reach the tip, they have mastered the gameplay mechanics and are ready to face the most challenging sequences the game has to offer.

The box puzzle and boat fight try to utilize this structure, but ultimately boil down to dropping the player off at the tip of the pyramid, requiring the player to quickly adapt and gain mastery of the mechanics over the course of minutes.  The rationale is, oh it's ok... Shadrack isn't going to actually kill Rosella, so you got all the time in the world.  Great... let's make Shadrack out to be a liar who gives nothing but empty threats (he does threaten to kill Rosella, but never actually does, regardless of how long you take opening the box).  Especially considering all he really had to do was work his mojo on Valanice in much the same manner as he did with Alexander during the opening cutscene... that's neither here nor there and is the topic for another discussion.  As for the boat fight, the rationale is, oh it's ok... the player can reload the game and try again until he/she gets it.  Great... let's throw the player into the ocean and hope he/she swims... sooner or later they'll get it!  

Cez and co are trying new things, and that is good.  They just need to actually take the feedback of their beta testers seriously.  Like I pointed out in the feedback thread, nothing I am writing here should be of any surprise, since it SHOULD have been brought up by the beta testers during internal testing and it should have been addressed during internal testing.  I cannot believe no one on the beta tester team brought this stuff up.  Surely they sent a simple "Hey that box puzzle is brutal... too much going on all at once!" email.  Or in regards to the boat fight, surely they sent a simple "Yea that boat fight is epic, but don't you think we should put a tutorial or something in there that covers all the aspects of the fight, kinda like a trial run?"  Oh wait... that must have come up since we got a half-baked tutorial which covers some of the aspects of the fight, but leaves the rest to trial and error....

Sorry for the wall-o-text... I seem to be particularly apt at typing novella-sized posts.  **lol**
 
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Offline Thaumaturge

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2011, 08:50:43 PM »
to begin, let me say that overall, I really liked the addition of the Pandora's Box and Shadrack puzzles, I do believe.  They added a pleasant variety to the gameplay mechanics.  I do, however, feel that they might have been more effectively introduced a little earlier in the episode by smaller, easier versions of themselves, training players in these new gameplay elements.  Indeed, it may even have reduced the aversion that some feel to them, being perhaps more likely to have been seen as more complex versions of pre-existing elements rather than new elements suddenly included.

The Pandora's Box:
First of all, I really like the overall puzzle mechanism, and I agree with keeping that section being implemented in gameplay rather than a cutscene.  I very much enjoyed the artwork in it, by the way: a lovely, mystical atmosphere, joined with urgency and threat from Shadrack.

As to the mechanism itself, my only real complaints were the place-swapping, the narrator being still active and, to a lesser extent, the top icon-bar being still active, which all added some degree of frustration.  The first was slightly mitigated by my learning, in time, to identify the circles by some reasonably distinct element, but even so the movement and fading of the circles meant that I didn't always identify them before they vanished again.  The narrator, combined with fading or moving circles, became a little annoying, as I recall, and at that point superfluous, I feel.  the menu-bar issue is a niggle: at times I wanted to select an element that happened to be near the top at that time, and found the bar getting in my way.

The Fight:
I enjoy the concept here: it could well have been a rather fun sequence for me, I believe, and again I feel that the artwork was good, if perhaps less impressive than that of the Pandora's Box scene.  The attack animations, by the way, were both pleasantly varied and at times amusing (clearly Shadrack is not quite a "squishy wizard", given what he stood up to. ;)).

My main disappointment here was that the Earth attack was the only one that worked throughout most of the fight.  This is perhaps not in and of itself a flaw: the main puzzle is reacting to Shadrack's actions, not the counter, I feel.  However, the sequence was presented suggesting that Fire was likely to be useful, if only I looked for the opening, leaving me feeling that an attack was wasted.  A solution might have been to either provide a Fire attack that has use in the main combat, or to not allow access to Fire until it becomes useful.

Shadrack's lightning attack has been mentioned a few times, I think: I don't think that I ever figured out where I was supposed to look for that.  Instead, I was watching Shadrack, and thus missed the cue.  Perhaps a slight pan up might have cued players to look to the sky?

As to the smoke attack, I seem to recall being a little confused about that one, as I don't think that it ever seemed to touch me; indeed, I think that I at first took it for a teleportation on Shadrack's part.

Finally, as to Shardack's "rocking the boat": I think that the only problem here was initially not realising that the arrows on the amulet were dodge buttons.  Again, I think that this may be a player-training issue: previously - just prior, perhaps most saliently - dodging has been achieved via clicking to one side or the other of the character, accompanied by white text, meaning that that was likely the expected interface (and I do seem to recall that I looked for just that).  For preference, I think that I would like to keep the standard mechanism, since that is what the player is trained in.  If, however, the new mechanism is to be included, then perhaps highlighting the arrows a little more might be helpful: making the arrowheads larger, and perhaps flash briefly the first time, for example.

Implementing "adventure" and "action" options:
More work for you, I daresay, but it could work, I do believe - although note that I don't think that it entirely fixes some of the points that bothered me, at least.

Thoughts:
The duel with Mordack has been mentioned, I believe.  One idea for an alternate approach to such sequences that might be more interesting than the duel in this episode might be to give the player a set of actions that they can take, each with some effect.  The enemy then has another (perhaps overlapping) set of actions, again each with some effect.  These are then chosen by each in more or less the same system that you have, albiet with more time to think, given the greater number of options: one side acts, the other reacts, and then places reverse.  Notably, the effects of one action may cause the one affected to become more vulnerable to another, and the logic should be set up such that repeating a small set of actions over and over fails.  The challenge is then to manoeuvre and manipulate your opponent, while avoiding having the same done to oneself and taking advantage of said manipulations and manoeuvrings.

For example, the player might find themselves in a spell-battle; they have access to an ice spell, an earth spell, a fire spell and a wind spell, as does their opponent.  Said opponent is standing on a short pillar, not tall, but tall enough to keep him away from the flames of their fire spell.  Their opponent might himself cast a wall of fire at the player; the player counters by casting ice on themselves, creating a zone of cold that negates the heat of the fire.  If, however, they had used wind no effect may have been had on the flames, but the opponent might have been knocked from the pillar, leaving him vulnerable to the player's fire on a later turn.

The above is probably far from the best that might be done with such a system; indeed, I suspect that, with some thought, a confrontation might be made that plays as combat but which is effectively a boardgame in logic (without necessarily including anything like an actual board or set positions; states may take the places of the board).

... but it's a shame that adventure has never been allowed to evolve ...
Personally, I would love to see more new mechanics appearing in adventure games, I think, and to have games of both the old styles and new styles, and likely too hybrids of such.

For that matter, as someone who is very fond of the Quest for Glory series, I think that I'd also like to see more Adventure-RPG hybrids, which I feel worked rather well in those games, and could likely be improved upon.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 08:55:21 PM by Thaumaturge »

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2011, 02:26:40 PM »
All these statements about "evolving the adventure genre" are complete bullshit. 

Evolution does not equal transformation into another genre, which is what these sequences in Episode 4 really are.  Sure, adventure games should evolve, but at what cost?  At what point in this "evolution" does the game cease being an adventure game and become and action game?  Or an RPG?  Or a puzzle game (NOT the same as an adventure game, by the way.)

If you want to "evolve" the adventure genre, try coming up with something original, not just "borrowing" game mechanics from another genre.

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Re: Feedback on the fight
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2011, 02:38:39 PM »
Did you play Ep4, Lamb?

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