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King's Quest IV: What would you change?

Started by KatieHal, January 22, 2012, 10:35:20 AM

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KatieHal

First off--no, we are not doing a KQ4 remake. I don't know of anyone who is other than the Magic Mirror folks who are occasionally mentioned, and I'm not even sure if that's still happening. This here is entirely just my own curiosity!

We've seen some remakes and remakes-plus of KQ1, KQ2, and KQ3. So what about KQ4? What would you add, take away, tweak, etc? From total rewrites to tiny adjustments!

As it came up in a thread on another forum, my first notion is that I'd add more logic and hints to the player on the whole find-the-golden-bridle puzzle.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

darthkiwi

Also hints about the fact the waterfall actually goes somewhere. I'm sure most people must assume it's scenery. :s
Prince of the Aquitaine. Duke of York.

Knight errant and consort to Her Grace the Empress Deloria of the Holy Roman Empire, Queene of all Albion and Princess Palatine.

drusain

I'd want Rosella to move a little faster when troll/ogre/shark/troll/troll chase you.

Brian Zabell
Quality Assurance/Technical Editor
I write for Andrew Greyson on The Four Winds

Fallout 3 Graham is Best Graham

Lambonius

I wouldn't add any hints directing players to the waterfall.  You are given info at the beginning of the game that says the fruit is somewhere beyond the mountains, and that narrows things down to looking for a path around/over/through all the mountain screens.  Also, when you swim up to the waterfall, the game makes a point of pushing you back and saying that the current is too strong.

I dunno--there is logic to the idea of a "cave behind a waterfall"--it's a pretty classic idea and you see it in a lot of video games where exploration is a part of the gameplay.

I think discovering the cave behind the waterfall is a really neat little moment in the game, one that rewards your careful exploration and use of items.  Adding a bunch of hints pointing you in that direction would spoil it, in my opinion.  It's not like the bridle location where it is COMPLETELY random and makes no sense for it to be there.

MusicallyInspired

Seconded. Lamb's point is supported by the fact that the fruit is not necessary to finish the game. It's a bonus (a necessary bonus to get full points, but a bonus no less).

MikPal


Lambonius

#6
Quote from: MusicallyInspired on January 22, 2012, 01:04:25 PM
Seconded. Lamb's point is supported by the fact that the fruit is not necessary to finish the game. It's a bonus (a necessary bonus to get full points, but a bonus no less).

Adding to that--I don't know about you guys, but when I first got the frog prince crown, the first thing I did was try it on near every body of water in the game.  It just made sense to me to do that.  I never had trouble finding the hidden cave behind the waterfall.

What I WOULD change about the cave behind the waterfall is the fact that you can't see in it, even WITH the damn lantern.  The lantern should at least illuminate some of your surroundings.  I always hated that all it did was expand the size of Rosella's sprite so you could see the walkbehinds better.  Terrible.  It's one of those things that really feels like the limitations of the technology.  It also makes the chasm thing COMPLETELY trial and error, because there is absolutely no way to see it coming before you die for the first time.  I'd ALSO make the troll not completely random.  Even with the lantern, there is no way to avoid the troll if he appears--and he follows you on every cave interior screen--so you have to leave the cave completely and just try again.  Now THAT's bad game design.  

Some way to consistently avoid or permanently get rid of the troll would be great.  Also, actual graphics for the cave interiors (even if it's light shining off dark black walls, with very little detail) would enhance that section.  I wouldn't go all out and render bright interiors or anything--but just enough light reflecting off the wall surfaces so that the chasm is just visible, but still very easy to miss if you're not looking carefully.

Damar

I agree, the waterfall never bothered me at all.  I don't know, maybe it was the movies I watched and the games I played, but when I was young I had a hard time figuring out that not all waterfalls actually had a cave behind them.  Caves and waterfalls just go together.

I would also agree that something has to be done about that troll.  I don't like that it's trial and error.  Either you see the troll and you die because there's just no escape, or you never see him.  I don't know if I'd want a way to fight the troll or just a way to avoid him (probably the latter actually.)  Maybe do something where, if the troll is close, the game says something like, "You hear heavy breathing and growling coming from the [north, south, east, west, whatever]."  With a bit of a redesign of the actual cave system (instead of a straight line from here to there), you could make it so that Rosella can just avoid the troll completely while still trying to explore and eventually find a way out.  Likewise, the chasm should be a little visible.

As for the infamous bridle, maybe make the shipwreck a bit bigger.  A larger ship with horse skeletons and a wrecked stable, showing that the ship carried horses, thus explaining why there would be a bridle there.  Plus if the ship is big and has bones and other cool stuff, it begs you to explore it.  The issue with the original is that all the wreckage looks the same.  There's not really any reason to walk inside that little wrecked canoe.  A larger ship would beg exploration that the original just didn't.  Heck, maybe even make the ship partially underwater, kind of like getting the gem in SQ2.

At the very beginning, I'd have Genesta say something about her island being a short way across the ocean, or say something about Rosella seeing it in the distance, that way you have a reason to swim out into the ocean.  In both KQ2 and 3, the ocean is just for dying.  It always felt weird that we were supposed to suddenly realize the ocean was now for exploring in 4.  Granted, we see the fairies flying off, but they also have wings so there's no reason to think we can access where they're going.  On Genesta's island, I'd have the feather in one specific spot, not random.  It's not really fair if you can walk the whole island and have it be possible for the feather to never show.  Likewise I'd make it possible to outrun the whale unless you have both the feather and fish in which case it's just a cut scene and you get swallowed.  It would cut down on dead ends, or at the very least put the person at ease that, yes, you have what you need.

Lastly, I would absolutely, positively, not tie this in with any other King's Quest.  In other words Lolotte is not a Black Cloak.  It's just unnecessary to act like she is.  She's a powerful villain and a great character in her own right.  She doesn't need to be augmented or made to be equal or subservient to the other villains of the series.  Let her stand on her own.  She's too powerful for those wimpy Black Cloaks anyway.

There might be other small things, but over all, any changes should be cosmetic only, I think.  KQ4 was a great game.  It really doesn't need fixing.

KatieHal

I think I'd like to see a way for Rosella to fight back at the troll--like, lure him into falling into the chasm, or swing the shovel at him and knock him out. Something like that! She's got enough spunk that I could easily see her doing the latter.

Lolotte does stand pretty well on her own, I agree (and yes, I say this knowing that isn't how we play it in TSL). She doesn't need to be connected. At MOST, if someone wanted to, they could connect her to Etheria in some way that makes learning about Edgar's origins in KQ7 not as out of nowhere. Or at least have Genesta mention something about that, even if it wasn't in front of Rosella.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Lambonius

Ah...one of the many reasons I've always disliked KQ7.

I hate the in-series retcon of Edgar's origin.  I absolutely hate it.  It COMPLETELY ruined what was cool about his character.  The idea that a son could come from such evil and still end up being good at heart.  In KQ4, the ending transformation of Edgar was his REWARD for his good soul.  The whole moral was the idea of beauty not being skin deep, etc.

But no, now we're supposed to believe he was ALWAYS a f****** fairy prince.  UGH.  Gag me.  Terrible.

A better retcon would be to erase the existence of KQ7.

KatieHal

Yeah....KQ7 has a lot of faults. I tend to agree that's one of them. It didn't need to be tied back to KQ4--and it ISN'T until the very end of the game, either! Which kind of makes that tie worthless. It's not why you bought it, or played the whole story, it isn't anything but a throw-in at the end.

Bringing back Edgar in and of itself was fine...and the storyline in KQ7 was alright. Flawed but decent. Some tweaks here and there would help it quite a bit.

Hm. That'd be another interesting topic to explore, how to improve or change KQ7?

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Lambonius

Quote from: KatieHal on January 22, 2012, 07:58:06 PM

Hm. That'd be another interesting topic to explore, how to improve or change KQ7?

Heh...I'll save my thoughts on THAT for the inevitable new thread you're going to create.  ;)

I like the discussion of possible changes to KQ4 though, as it's a game that is much more universally enjoyed.  So it's more interesting to me to see the areas people dislike about it.  With KQ7, we already pretty much know--graphics, bad interface, chapter format, SINGING (oh god, the singing), etc.  Most people are going to agree on the same stuff there.  ;)

MusicallyInspired

Quote from: KatieHal on January 22, 2012, 07:58:06 PMHm. That'd be another interesting topic to explore, how to improve or change KQ7?

Take it all back to the drawing board? (no pun intended, but encouraged)

Blackthorne

I would put a close up of Genesta's Island out in the distance, if Rosella was standing at the end of the pier, and looked out onto the ocean, just to Orient that.  Or even make it just an incident that plays the first time you walk out to the end of the pier after the fisherman leaves.  Just to give the player a notion that it's out there.

Bt
"You've got to keep one eye looking over your shoulder
you know it's going to get harder and harder as you
get older - but in the end you'll pack up, fly down south, hide your head in the sand.  Just another sad old man, all alone and dying of cancer." - Dogs, Pink Floyd.

Lambonius

Quote from: Blackthorne on January 22, 2012, 11:56:54 PM
I would put a close up of Genesta's Island out in the distance, if Rosella was standing at the end of the pier, and looked out onto the ocean, just to Orient that.  Or even make it just an incident that plays the first time you walk out to the end of the pier after the fisherman leaves.  Just to give the player a notion that it's out there.

Bt

Yeah, totally.  I would say typing "Look ocean" on ANY of the beach or ocean swimming screens should tell you about the nearby island.  What really irks me about the original, is that you can be swimming in the ocean ONE SCREEN AWAY from the island, type "Look ocean" and it'll say something about "swimming in endless blue ocean."  Ridiculous.

Bludshot

One thing I liked about the AGDI KQ2 remake was how they threw in a town without it the addition be overtly intrusive.  I think KQ4 could benefit from a port similar to KQ3, is that old fishing couple really the only residence in the land, barring ogres and dwarves?
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KatieHal

A little town would be nice! It would really reinforce the idea that what happened to Genesta is affecting the place. Oh, especially if the town had been deserted or was being evacuated since Lolotte stole the talisman. We're told that leaves Genesta weakened, dying, and unable to protect her lands. Actually that could be a great way to point to where Genesta's Island is--the townspeople are going or have gone there already.

Or, if you wanted to go even further--the townspeople are being kept in their town by the Goons, and one of Rosella's tasks to help Genesta could be to find a way to free them, without being caught doing so by Lolotte (so as not to ruin her 'cover').

Also something that gives Edgar a little more involvement in that storyline would be nice, too.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Lambonius

Quote from: KatieHal on January 23, 2012, 08:45:56 AM

Also something that gives Edgar a little more involvement in that storyline would be nice, too.

I like the idea of Edgar being more involved.  It'd be cool to see him reluctantly performing some evil deeds at his mother's bequest earlier in the game.  It'd reinforce the idea of him becoming gradually more torn about it, and make his turn to goodness at the end of the game more meaningful.

Datadog

I like the idea of adding a small town to the area just around the fisherman's hut. Much like KQ2+ and KQ3, it helps sell the idea that this land's entire population isn't just two old people and a bard. There could even be a wall around the village - something to help defend against the ogres and zombies, maybe?

There should also be a back-story to lure the player out into the open ocean to get swallowed by the whale. So many times, I've swam around without ever running into the whale - it's one of things you could just miss forever if you don't know it's there. But the bridle itself doesn't have to be on the island. Someone in town could have it and be willing to trade it for something lost at sea (you could help Geppetto find Pinnochio!)

I also like that idea of luring the troll into the chasm. Should as simple as picking up the plank after crossing it to hear the troll fall in.

Otherwise, I think KQ4 is pretty solid. On it's own, it's still a great game.

Blackthorne

Guys, there's a giant old decrepit mansion right in the middle of the land of Tamir.  If there's any kind of town there, it should be near that place!  I like Katie's idea of an old, deserted town because of Lolotte.  Gives reason to why the mansion went to ruin, too.


Bt
"You've got to keep one eye looking over your shoulder
you know it's going to get harder and harder as you
get older - but in the end you'll pack up, fly down south, hide your head in the sand.  Just another sad old man, all alone and dying of cancer." - Dogs, Pink Floyd.