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King's Quest IV: What would you change?

Started by KatieHal, January 22, 2012, 10:35:20 AM

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Lambonius

I'm not a fan of the idea of an added town, because really--you need to be able to justify its existence within the game beyond just, hey--that would be cool, expanded back story FTW!!  ;)

Seriously though, adding something as significant as a town would involve reworking and adding a lot to the game's core plot.  I also think that having the town exist so that its inhabitants can give you hints on what to do is lame.  You should be able to figure out what to do and where to go based on your own intuition and careful exploration.  Figuring out that you need to look at the ocean to get a clue to see the island works much better in adventure game terms than just having an NPC that explains the existence of the island to you.  Then it's not really you FINDING it--the info is just being handed to you.

I do think the idea of abandoned and run-down town buildings could be cool though.  Because then it's just adding depth to the landscape and its history, without overtly intruding on the way the game unfolds.

Blackthorne

Yeah, that's what I say - have an abandoned town - just boarded up buildings, and a couple empty rooms.   You could even have a diary in one that says "We've left for better places because of the awful Lolotte, who lives in the mountains."

Then you're just adding atmosphere without cluttering up the story.


Bt
"You've got to keep one eye looking over your shoulder
you know it's going to get harder and harder as you
get older - but in the end you'll pack up, fly down south, hide your head in the sand.  Just another sad old man, all alone and dying of cancer." - Dogs, Pink Floyd.

KatieHal

Adding Gepetto and Pinnochio in there someplace to make the whale be less random and have more purpose would work well. And it feeds right into the story tale stuff KQ is well-known for.

In the Walking Dead-KQ4 crossover that just happened in my head, some building in the abandoned town surrounding the abandoned mansion, someone has scrawled "Don't Open, Dead Inside" :)

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Blackthorne

Quote from: KatieHal on January 23, 2012, 12:26:30 PM
Adding Gepetto and Pinnochio in there someplace to make the whale be less random and have more purpose would work well. And it feeds right into the story tale stuff KQ is well-known for.

You know, that's not a half bad idea at all - very King's Quest-y.  Gives you, the player, some direction towards a whale.  Either that or add a dude named Jonah.


Bt
"You've got to keep one eye looking over your shoulder
you know it's going to get harder and harder as you
get older - but in the end you'll pack up, fly down south, hide your head in the sand.  Just another sad old man, all alone and dying of cancer." - Dogs, Pink Floyd.

MusicallyInspired


Damar

I'm kind of torn on adding new plot or expanding on it.  On the one hand, it seems like it's an objectively good idea.  On the other hand, I really think KQ4 stands up on its own.  For example, in AGDI's KQ2+ you had the library and all the expanded information on the mermaids, on the monks, and so on.  I think that worked more there because the original KQ2 just felt like things were tossed together without any connection.  To a degree KQ4 is similar, however it's much more organic.  In KQ2, there's nothing tying Dracula with the monks with the antique shop with Hagatha.  They're just completely separate beings that happen to live in the same area.  Likewise in KQ4 there's nothing specifically tying the ghosts with the witches with the mummy with the ogre and so on, but rather than feeling like they were just tossed together, it feels like we just don't know what the connection is.  Tamir is a new, unknown land and it's a fairly unsettling one at that.  Not knowing what the deal is with all these ghosts, why they died, why their mansion went to crap, why Pandora's Box is in the crypt, and who built that crypt in the first place, to me that's not something that's lacking.  It adds to the unsettling and dangerous feel of the game.  You're alone making your way in this land, walking in the midst of situations that you have no idea about.  You're in over your head.  Having a library with information on the mansion or the people, to me, would suddenly make Tamir a less frightening place.  I like the unknown.  In fact, the unsettling nature of the unknown is, I think, what gives KQ4 it's darker atmosphere.

Added to that, I think that KQ4 is pretty much the pinnacle of what King's Quest could be in regards to the old school pure exploration parser interface adventure game.  Maybe it seems slightly anachronistic in some areas, like not fully explaining plot or having deeper character interactions, but it is a product of its time and one of the finest examples you could wish to have of what the game could do during that time.  For that reason, while I'd be interested in an expanded KQ4 just from a curiosity standpoint, I think that a 1:1 remake is really the best way to handle KQ4, outside of a few clean-ups like have been discussed before with the random whale, the troll, seeing Genesta's castle from a distance, and so on.

Lambonius

Nice post, Damar.  I agree pretty much completely.  This thread is just a fun "what if?" discussion.

I'd actually not want to do a total 1:1 remake, as I really think those are pointless, especially with SCI games, since the graphics are already awesome as is.  I'd do kind of a re-imagining a la Sierra's SQ1 remake (but with visuals more like KQ5.)  Same core game, remastered and redesigned rooms, a few revised puzzles, but no major gameplay or plot changes.  That'd be my ideal KQ4 remake.  :)

MusicallyInspired

#27
The graphics are great but they're not VGA. Not that VGA is better, but when I was a kid I wanted to see them all in VGA...just to see what they look like! Even SQ1AGI's graphics are spectacular! But just to see it remade and re-imagined is a joy as well. That's why I majorly dislike remakes that just trace over the same images. I want to see different takes, someone else's interpretation, with the same storyline and puzzle design (for the most part) intact. It's just nice to have both.

In a way I blame AGDI for this trend. Their first remake was a remake of KQ1SCI in VGA...which was completely logical. It was the only Sierra-made remake that wasn't VGA. We needed to see it in VGA. And it looks gorgeous. Even the Photoshop versions of the backgrounds that were made when it originally came out were nice to look at. I find KQ1SCI's art equally as gorgeous, incidentally.

But that started something. It was logical to trace over KQ1SCI's background images to VGA. It had already been re-imagined once. But for KQ2 there wasn't a remake already made. I really wanted to see new images instead of traceovers after a while. Luckily the whole game was remodeled so we got to see things in lots of different ways! KQ3Redux, less so. Again, gorgeous art! But I long for re-interpretations. That's what EVERY Sierra remake did. QFG1VGA did it least so as there were a few images as I recall that were direct copies, but all the other remakes had brand new angles, presentations, and locales. I dislike SQ1VGA's art style, but I still enjoyed seeing it in a different light. If another SQ1 remake were to incorporate the original art design, I'd rather see shots from different angles (a la PQ1VGA or something like that) than to just see the same flat shots with more colours and slightly higher resolution. That just makes the original look washed out, and that's no worthy tribute to the original, in my opinion, seeing as they look so good with their strong use of the limited 16-colour EGA palette.

Ask yourselves what Sierra would have done had they remade the second in every series, or all of the games in the series to 1992/1993 standards. They wouldn't have done traceovers. Not by a longshot.

Lambonius

#28
Quote from: MusicallyInspired on January 23, 2012, 09:55:13 PM
The graphics are great but they're not VGA. Not that VGA is better, but when I was a kid I wanted to see them all in VGA...just to see what they look like! Even SQ1AGI's graphics are spectacular! But just to see it remade and re-imagined is a joy as well. That's why I majorly dislike remakes that just trace over the same images. I want to see different takes, someone else's interpretation, with the same storyline and puzzle design (for the most part) intact. It's just nice to have both.

In a way I blame AGDI for this trend. Their first remake was a remake of KQ1SCI in VGA...which was completely logical. It was the only Sierra-made remake that wasn't VGA. We needed to see it in VGA. And it looks gorgeous. Even the Photoshop versions of the backgrounds that were made when it originally came out were nice to look at. I find KQ1SCI's art equally as gorgeous, incidentally.

But that started something. It was logical to trace over KQ1SCI's background images to VGA. It had already been re-imagined once. But for KQ2 there wasn't a remake already made. I really wanted to see new images instead of traceovers after a while. Luckily the whole game was remodeled so we got to see things in lots of different ways! KQ3Redux, less so. Again, gorgeous art! But I long for re-interpretations. That's what EVERY Sierra remake did. QFG1VGA did it least so as there were a few images as I recall that were direct copies, but all the other remakes had brand new angles, presentations, and locales. I dislike SQ1VGA's art style, but I still enjoyed seeing it in a different light. If another SQ1 remake were to incorporate the original art design, I'd rather see shots from different angles (a la PQ1VGA or something like that) than to just see the same flat shots with more colours and slightly higher resolution. That just makes the original look washed out, and that's no worthy tribute to the original, in my opinion, seeing as they look so good with their strong use of the limited 16-colorue EGA palette.

Ask yourselves what Sierra would have done had they remade the second in every series, or all of the games in the series to 1992/1993 standards. They wouldn't have done traceovers. Not by a longshot.

AGREE COMPLETELY.  As you well know.  :)  This is a discussion we've had behind the scenes at IA many a time, and it strongly influenced the direction many of the sections of our SQ2 Remake took.  In fact, one way to tell the areas of the game that were made first (i.e. most of the first section of Labion) is the fact that they stick really close to the original screen layouts.  As development went on, we got more adventurous and creative with the screens.  :)

The issue with the SCI games is that many of them already have really cool and iconic art styles that we are all already in love with, so it's harder to reimagine them.  But I definitely think it's necessary.  Nobody wants to play the same game with the same screens with new colors.  Fans of remakes WANT to see new takes.  That's why I am adamantly against the idea of traceovers if we ever do another remake.

Numbers

Quote from: Damar on January 23, 2012, 08:08:35 PM
I'm kind of torn on adding new plot or expanding on it...

Me too.  It's not often that a video game is able to pull off a convoluted plot in a way that makes everyone happy.  Some of the stuff in this thread, I don't know...it would have to be pulled off pretty seamlessly, otherwise it looks like it would be better off in a fan-fiction than in a video game environment.

Not to mention that whoever wrote said fan-fiction would have to rise above the overwhelming masses of fan-fiction writers that incorporate out-of-character moments, inappropriate relationships, and really bad writing...

Seriously, finding a well-written fan fiction is like finding a golden needle in a haystack without the help of singing ants.
I have no mouth, and I must scream.

Blackthorne

Yeah. I don't think plot needs to be re-written on this one - mostly just fun graphical stuff.  Like, having an abandoned town is more just something creepy to explore.  It doesn't change the plot or Lolotte's motivations.  It's just some icing.


Bt
"You've got to keep one eye looking over your shoulder
you know it's going to get harder and harder as you
get older - but in the end you'll pack up, fly down south, hide your head in the sand.  Just another sad old man, all alone and dying of cancer." - Dogs, Pink Floyd.

Lambonius

I think it might be cool if you could have optional conversations with the fisherman and his wife after helping them--they could fill you in on details of the land of Tamir itself, offering interesting (they'd have to be well-written though) explanations for some of the land's more random elements (like the random Classical pool and the random Egyptian tomb, etc.)  The 3 Witches from the Persius myth were always an interesting addition, too--I always wonder if they could be somehow connected to the existence of Cupid's pool, since both are from Greek mythology.

I think I'd also like to just see more interactions in general--there are tons of items that I'd always try to look at and interact with in places like the mansion, the prison cell in Lolotte's palace, etc., that were just scenery (unless I wasn't finding the right parser words.)  If it were point and click, I'd love a lot of additional (well-written!) narrations for every little background object.  I get off on that sort of stuff, definitely.  Right now, our in-house KOS build has very few background narrations written for the extraneous scenery details, and it irks me to no end whenever I play it.  ;)  It's especially bothersome because we have some super detailed backgrounds in that game.  :)

wilco64256

That is definitely one of the shortcomings of the parser system - you'd often wonder if you were just typing something incorrectly when things weren't cooperating.  At least with point-and-click you can figure out pretty quickly whether that particular cool-looking thing is actually meant to be interacted with or if it's just decoration.
Weldon Hathaway

snabbott

Quote from: wilco64256 on January 24, 2012, 07:39:31 PM
That is definitely one of the shortcomings of the parser system - you'd often wonder if you were just typing something incorrectly when things weren't cooperating.  At least with point-and-click you can figure out pretty quickly whether that particular cool-looking thing is actually meant to be interacted with or if it's just decoration.
True, though good descriptions when you type "look" can help a lot. I got stuck for the longest time in SQ1 because what I thought was a box was actually a chest/trunk. It kept telling me I couldn't do anything with the box. >:(

Steve Abbott | Beta Tester | The Silver Lining

Numbers

While we're on the subject of a hypothetical VGA remake, I wouldn't mind if the north-south looping were done away with like it was in the KQ2 & 3 remakes.  For example, traveling north one screen from the fisherman's cottage could show Tamir's beach ending at that point with the Eastern mountain range stretching off into the distance.  If you tried to swim north from there, it could even display a message saying "You see no value in swimming north.  However, you do notice an interesting-looking island to the west."

IMO, a screen like that could actually contribute to the atmosphere of Tamir--pretty and scenic, but at the same time empty-feeling.

[spoiler]Of course, if Baggins were here, he would probably tell us exactly how northern Tamir is supposed to look according to the Companion...[/spoiler]
I have no mouth, and I must scream.

MusicallyInspired

I think the layout would be best with the evil tree forest to the north, despite what the Companion or any official maps say.

Lambonius

Speaking of which, isn't it about time Baggins was allowed back here?  I miss his pedantic nerdery.

Bludshot

Quote from: MusicallyInspired on January 25, 2012, 05:03:50 PM
I think the layout would be best with the evil tree forest to the north, despite what the Companion or any official maps say.

Agreed, no need to get bogged down in trivial canon.  As a Star Wars fan I figured that out long ago. :P
Deep Thoughts with Connor Mac Lyrr
"Alack! The heads do not die!"

Blackthorne

Quote from: MusicallyInspired on January 25, 2012, 05:03:50 PM
I think the layout would be best with the evil tree forest to the north, despite what the Companion or any official maps say.

Right on!  Though I think the southern border should have a gigantic fence that says "Property of Baggins" on it.


Bt
"You've got to keep one eye looking over your shoulder
you know it's going to get harder and harder as you
get older - but in the end you'll pack up, fly down south, hide your head in the sand.  Just another sad old man, all alone and dying of cancer." - Dogs, Pink Floyd.

KatieHal


Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!