Certain Story Weirdness Semi-rant (Spoilers heavy)

[Neonivek]

first I am sorry for the spelling. Also I didn't mean this to sound like a rant, it just ended up being one.

When I first played the game, I since played all four, I saw the people who attended the wedding. There were powerful genies, Kings and Queens, and magical creatures.

Heck even Edgar was an experienced and reliable magician who was actually able to defeat Melicia in battle until she tricked him (very easily).

The Genie was capable of just uttarly destroying people on the spot, transport anywhere in existance, has extensive knowledge of the magic arts.

Odeon and Titania are the king and queen of Eternia who command the four winds, The Fates, and The Weaver of dreams as well as having an army. This is also ignoring that the implication is that they are on par with Malicia in terms of magic.

Valinece of Daventry even has a very specific blessing given to her by the goddess of dreams that she will have nothing but sweet dreams. Meaning she has a goddess looking out for her. (also oddly enough the point where you had to "Enter their dreams" was odd to me...)

Along with this they know several magical and powerful beings who are possitively ancient and as old as the earth itself including Mother Nature herself. Heck I had trouble identifying all the characters.

I thought this must have been the most epic villain in Kings Quest. Afterall the previous villains only picked fights with you when you had next to nothing to truely combat them. This one was actually willing to stand up to several kingdoms, one being a magical kingdom brimming with outright gods, and stand in a room full of people who can cast powerful spells and get away with it.

Yet almost none of them help in anyway possible. It wouldn't be so bad if they were indeed helping but found no leads or were taken care of by the villain, but judging by a lot of dialog they really are just sitting on their butt waiting for you to solve their problems.

Don't get me wrong some characters I can understand. Edgar was outright told not to interfere (and I always suspected he is secretly doing something behind the scenes), and Cassima had to rule the kingdom. but no one else? The only other character who did anything was the Genie who used his powers to do research but who could have been put to much better use.

Heck want to enter the children's dreams? Get the Dream Weaver to do it? He won't? Get Odeon and Titania to ask. Why do you need this convoluted spell when this option is well known. (To admit maybe it was because the Carpet could only let you enter your own dreams)

To admit though, this is probably the Kings Quest game filled with the most amount of people who genuinly want to help. It was actually odd just talking to people and them saying "Yeah I'll help you" and they just did. Which I found refreshing. I mean even the most kindhearted and genuinly helpful people often wanted something before you could get started. Yet in this I found characters who wouldn't mind just outright slaying you suddenly helpful to your cause. The Mermaids almost perplexing me with their helpfulness.

I am also very interested in the 5th when/if it comes out. Don't get me wrong I liked the games, I just found this weird and somehow couldn't avoid making it sound like a rant. Several of the other inconsistancies are likely plotpoints for the 5th's twists.

[Deloria]

I think this is a very good point. The only thing I could possibly come up with as far as an explanation goes is that it happened too quickly for anyone to react.

[KatieHal]

Hello and welcome! And thanks for the feedback, Neonivek! I hope that overall you're enjoying the game.

You've got some good points. A few of them are addressed in Episode 5 (why the Dreamweaver & Lady Mab wouldn't be able to help in particular). And yes, the attack did happen very quickly, hence why at the wedding no one was able to do anything to help.

As for afterwards--well, again, much of this is addressed in Episode 5, but it's very much Graham and his family's story that we're telling here. That both factors into story reasons why the solution to this problem lies with him, and gameplay reasons: in the end, it's Graham's story, not Oberon's or Titania's.

[Neonivek]

Oww the spoilers, they burn!

[KatieHal]

I didn't say what the explanations actually are...

[drusain]

Sometimes you have to balance things out. There are a lot of supporting characters in the story who theoretically could have done a lot of Graham's work sooner and more easily. But which is more fun: Having secondary and tertiary characters do all the work for you, or getting out there to explore and adventure yourself? There was a lot of potential for powerful characters like Shamir or Oberon to overshadow Graham's importance to the story, and that wouldn't have been a good thing when you're trying to make your game's protagonist find out what's going on in the story and try to solve the problems.

As the game progresses, it becomes pretty clear that the story for this game revolves around Graham and his family. As adventurers, we want to solve the problem before us, not take a backseat to the supporting characters doing it instead. It wouldn't be much of a game if the protagonist wasn't the one doing the work.

It's sort of like the whole "why didn't the eagles just fly Frodo to Mt. Doom" scenario. I'm sure they could have, but that would've cheapened the whole point of the story since the story wasn't about the eagles.

[Neonivek]

Dang all my previous stuff was deleted in a post

Anyhow don't get me wrong I did not expect them to do your work for you, afterall Graham was quite adamant on going on alone. I just expected a lot of fruitless effort. The first thing I thought Eternia would do is get the four winds to search for the villain and come up empty, I expected dark magic to obsure his location from the more magically/psychically inclined, I forsaw characters speaking to all your previous allies and comming back empty perhaps with a clue. Perhaps with a conversation or two about exactly what they tried to do.

I did not expect that they would DO nothing.

This isn't "why didn't the eagles just fly Frodo to Mt. Doom". This is like if the Giant Eagles showed up and just sat there. It was just odd. It just weirds me out.

I mean I found myself laughing more at it. I imagined that behind Grahams back several characters went "Ohh no the Princess and King are under a curse! well... Graham will have it resolved, back to work". I am surprised they even had a day of mourning.

Also WOW... I didn't expect to hear responses from the staff.

--

Edit addition:

Also I should state that LOTRs did explain why the Eagles didn't fly them over mount doom or any closer.

Also I should state again that I never expected all those people to fry the villain. I was only trying to build how great I thought the villain was, and surprised that... frankly... no one really opposed him at any point except Graham. Even afterwords. (Except the Genie, the Genie is surprisingly helpful in a game full of people content to do nothing)

[crayauchtin]

Except the eagles in LOTR are there. They're introduced in the Fellowship of the Ring -- right before the quest to go to Mordor. Even if you read the Hobbit first, the eagles are in that too -- although, you're right, there's explanations for why the eagles couldn't work. But, yes, they're there the whole time.

Anyways....I know I'm being a bit nitpicky, but maybe this will help clarify for ya.

I don't think any of the characters are doing nothing, they're just not able to do anything effective. They've all said "We'll help in any way we can." For all we know they're trying and not coming up with anything, and since you're busy running around everywhere, it's not like they can pull you aside and say "PS I failed to accomplish anything useful. Have a good day."

By the way, Oberon and Titania don't control the Four Winds -- the Winds answer to Levanter, Lord of the Winds. He respects Oberon and Titania but it is never said he answers to them. The only reason he gets them for Valanice in KQ7 is because the whole of Etheria, including the Mountain of Winds, is at risk if the volcano explodes.

The Weaver of Dreams, too, seems to act entirely separately from Oberon and Titania. He isn't even particularly concerned about Etheria or anyone in his family save Lady Mab. And The Fates aren't controlled by anyone -- they're more of a cosmic force than anything. After all, their job is to determine the destinies of every singe living being, including Oberon and Titania. They're more of a cosmic force than anything.

Also, all of Oberon and Titania's subjects are in Etheria which is a whole other plane/realm of existence. We don't know how they got here, but the only portal between realms that we know of is in Daventry (that said, we don't know how that got there or if it could be moved or if it's still there or much of anything about that). But in order to get help, they'd need to return home. In fact, they may not have any powers in our world. (Edgar hasn't shown any powers in our world, Lolotte seemed to need artifacts to build her power, Genesta's magic was powered by a talisman... not that Genesta's from Etheria, but she might be!)

As for people in the world of Daventry with power that are friends of the royal family..... it's pretty much just Crispin. Who I didn't see at the wedding -- not that he couldn't still help, but he's more senile than powerful as of KQ5 and this is some time after that. I'm sure he didn't get more effective.
Oh, and Genesta.... but the only person who knows her at all is Rosella. Who's kind of busy with her coma to get in touch (cause I didn't see Genesta at the wedding, and I kind of feel like that was an oversight since Genesta is the one who made it all possible!)

[Neonivek]

(Dear people who run the forums... I had this post deleted once, my second attempt didn't work... and the only way I got this to post was to make a shorter post and then modify it to this format. This wasn't the first time this happened. Shame because both times I had much better posts)

Ohh my goodness... My entire post was nuked... It was such a long response.

This is the second time it happened on this thread. I want to cry.

Anyhow I guess I have to shorten it since I don't want to retype it. I am sorry for this since it is rather shortened.

My problem Cray wasn't so much that no one "helped" but rather no one seemed to try to help. Almost everyone seemed content with letting Graham do all the work. There was little feedback of the co-ordinated effort and other then the freekishly helpful genie most characters you see were either "Thinking" or trying to keep everything together (Heck I highly suspected Edgar was secretly doing something and still do)

For a game like this where it is trying to put everything together it would have been much more effective if it felt like a combined effort even if only Graham came back with solid leads.

An easy solution would have simply been to keep a liason, someone left behind, who would tell you what everyone was doing, trying to find out, and simply comming back empty. It would have been bonus too because it could have included other references to previous Kings Quest games.

It diminishes the villain since it turns a villain who not only stood in a room full of the most powerful beings but also the rulers of several kingdoms, a feat beyond all previous Kings Quest villains. Into a villain who essentially threw a magical fastball and got away with it because Graham is the only one willing to actually do the footwork to get anything done (except the Genie... In a game full of lazy people he is surprisingly helpful)

So I guess that really is what it boils down to. The Feedback the game gives you.

(Ohh man, was my original response better... the saddness)

--

Also I assume Oberon, Titania, and Edgar both have their full compliment of magical power. (Heck Edgar was almost on par with Malicia)

You are forgetting that this is Kings Quest and magic isn't the solution to everything even magic. There is no doubt in my mind that were everyone together their full compliment of magic wouldn't undo the curse.

---

"Who's kind of busy with her coma to get in touch"

Honestly I just assumed many people were just too busy. I also highly suspect this wedding was rather sudden.

If you are comming up with lists of people who could have possibly helped who weren't at the wedding. Celes the goddess of nature would have been a rather big one, The Standing stones who are as old as the earth itself, The Good fairy who can give one protection from evil, Queen Mab (sorta, we already got a spoiler of why she couldn't have helped), Curtis, really just about anyone from KQ7.

I'd actually would have loved to create an entire list of people who could have helped. Just for fun not criticism. As I said my issue was never that no one was helpful but that it seemed like no one tried to help.

[Say]

(Dear people who run the forums... I had this post deleted once, my second attempt didn't work... and the only way I got this to post was to make a shorter post and then modify it to this format. This wasn't the first time this happened. Shame because both times I had much better posts)

I'm sorry

What seems to be the problem?

Not sure, just guessing here - if it's too long just make sure you write down your thoughts let's say on Word, then if you must, separate it in two posts. There is no need to make yourself short.

If it's giving you any other errors by the time you try to post, then by all means report it so something can be done about it.

[crayauchtin]

My problem Cray wasn't so much that no one "helped" but rather no one seemed to try to help. Almost everyone seemed content with letting Graham do all the work. There was little feedback of the co-ordinated effort and other then the freekishly helpful genie most characters you see were either "Thinking" or trying to keep everything together (Heck I highly suspected Edgar was secretly doing something and still do)

I distinctly remember Graham turning down offers to help from certain people who offered. "No, you have to take care of blah blah blah."

Also I assume Oberon, Titania, and Edgar both have their full compliment of magical power. (Heck Edgar was almost on par with Malicia)

Yes, Edgar was almost on par with Malicia. In Etheria. Etheria is an entirely different realm of existence. It operates on a totally different set of rules. The entirety of KQ7 only takes place in about ten minutes in our time, for instance. You can't assume that because something is one way in Etheria that it will be that way in Daventry. On Earth (well, Daventry) he has displayed exactly zero magical power. Even helping Rosella escape from Lolotte -- nadah. You're making an assumption based literally on nothing and then holding it against the game. You know what they say happens when you assume!

You are forgetting that this is Kings Quest and magic isn't the solution to everything even magic. There is no doubt in my mind that were everyone together their full compliment of magic wouldn't undo the curse.

I'm not forgetting that, but what we know about Oberon and Titania is that they're not very effective at much other than powerful magic. They're not effective leaders (they allowed their whole realm to turn to pot without ever noticing while they searched for their son), they're not effective adventurers (they had no idea what happened to their son, even though investigating why their kingdom was turning to pot probably could have clued them in). In TSL we learn that they're seriously co-dependent on each other and not exactly emotionally stable (really, you enchant your entire realm to forget about your child when he disappears? Graham and Valanice had the same thing happen and their kingdom got invaded by a dragon and lost their other child and handled it better than that.)

So, what I'm saying really is.... without their magic, how can they help? None of their subjects are here, like not even in the same world as this is going on. I think you're just saying all these people could be helpful without actually examining what we know about them and what we've seen them do (and where!)

"Who's kind of busy with her coma to get in touch"

Honestly I just assumed many people were just too busy. I also highly suspect this wedding was rather sudden.

You would think Genesta would have been invited anyways. I imagine she can teleport herself places, not just Rosella. Maybe they had a falling out. Maybe Genesta hates weddings. I don't know. Point is, she's probably the most likely to be able to help.

If you are comming up with lists of people who could have possibly helped who weren't at the wedding. Celes the goddess of nature would have been a rather big one, The Standing stones who are as old as the earth itself, The Good fairy who can give one protection from evil, Queen Mab (sorta, we already got a spoiler of why she couldn't have helped), Curtis, really just about anyone from KQ7.

I accept your challenge!!

-Graham's Fairy Godmother (KQ1): mysteriously absent since Graham took the crown. But she probably could have helped, yes. Even though I think if she showed up now Graham might have some words for her.... about, y'know, "WHY DIDN'T YOU STOP ANYTHING ELSE? EVER?!" Worst fairy godmother in the universe.
-The Good Fairy (KQ2): nobody knows even who she is -- she appeared, cast her protection spell, and vanished. She could probably help, yes.... if anyone knew how to find her.
-Brother Fragola (KQ2): according to KQC he even moved to Daventry after KQ2, and I bet he knows a thing or two about curses. Given his lack of presence at the wedding though, he either died of old age (or something) sometime during the course of the series or he's in Daventry.
-Genesta (KQ4): this one I will agree, almost definitely could help somehow and I'm wondering where she is.
-Crispin & Cedric (KQ5): Also rather glaringly absent, but not as likely to be able to help as Genesta in my opinion (though it seems like Crispin is a Silver Cloak given his relationship to Mordack).
-Cassima (KQ5/KQ6): she's holding the kingdom together in time of crisis, that seems helpful.
-Ancient Mariner (KQ5): I bet his medical knowledge would be able to make Rosella and Alexander's comas much more comfortable at least.
-Hasan the Ferryman (KQ6): he's helping by ferrying you around everywhere.
-Harun alRaschid (KQ6): "poofed himself into an aardvark in the end" (I just put him on the list because I love that line )
-Shamir Shamazle (KQ6): he is doing his research -- which is proving to be extremely helpful -- but he's also capable of teleporting people places at least around this world (as seen in the good ending of KQ6), so it makes Hasan seem less important and it makes Genesta and Crispin's absences even more peculiar.
-Archdruid (KQ6): he did his thing, I don't think he could be more helpful than just providing lore for us.
-Lord of the Dead (KQ6): he probably could help if we mess up further down the road but not yet!
-Lord Azure (KQ6): far too snotty to help.
-Oracle of the Winged Ones (KQ6): I think she did what she could to help.
-Rosella (KQ3-7): in a coma.
-Alexaner (KQ3-6): in a coma.
-Valanice (KQ2-7): cursed.
-Lord Attis (KQ7): in Etheria -- we don't know where the portal currently is or where it comes out or if Etherians have any power in our world, so this is incredibly iffy.
-Lady Ceres (KQ7): in Etheria -- again, we don't know if she could help at all in any way.
-Lady Mab (KQ7): spoiler aside, she's got her own realm of existence even further removed from us than Etheria, and I don't think she can leave it. Furthermore, the dreams the twins and Valanice are having are caused by the curse, so I'm not sure she has any power there.
-Weaver of Dreams (KQ7): even if he weren't in Etheria, I seriously doubt he would help. It took an awful lot of convincing to get him to help Valanice.
-The Four Winds (KQ7): I'm like 99% sure they can't leave Etheria what with being the wind there. Could be wrong. Not sure that they could help anyways, they mostly just move fast.
-Wizard of Daventry (MoE): I think we all want to ignore that he exists. Like, really, you only managed to half shield yourself from an impending doom you knew about? What a putz. Anyways... he probably could help though, even though he's in Daventry.
-Connor (MoE): he's sworn to guard the Realm of the Sun, I expect he might be hard to reach even for Shamir Shamazle. Plus, he's mostly good at kicking butt and taking names. And not being able to reach things. None of that sounds helpful.

I don't know what Standing Stones you're talking about (they sound awfully stationary though) and I don't know who Curtis is either. :\
Anyways, there's a few people who I'm positive could help and aren't.... but they're not even in the game. I think your basic premise that the people we meet in the game could be doing more to help is flawed though.

[tessspoon]

-Connor (MoE): he's sworn to guard the Realm of the Sun, I expect he might be hard to reach even for Shamir Shamazle. Plus, he's mostly good at kicking butt and taking names. And not being able to reach things. None of that sounds helpful.

He's also Captain of the Guard in Daventry in the TSL timeline.

[crayauchtin]

-Connor (MoE): he's sworn to guard the Realm of the Sun, I expect he might be hard to reach even for Shamir Shamazle. Plus, he's mostly good at kicking butt and taking names. And not being able to reach things. None of that sounds helpful.

He's also Captain of the Guard in Daventry in the TSL timeline.

And yet his greatest talent is still his short reach.

[tessspoon]

-Connor (MoE): he's sworn to guard the Realm of the Sun, I expect he might be hard to reach even for Shamir Shamazle. Plus, he's mostly good at kicking butt and taking names. And not being able to reach things. None of that sounds helpful.

He's also Captain of the Guard in Daventry in the TSL timeline.

And yet his greatest talent is still his short reach.

[Neonivek]

Dream Weaver: even if he weren't in Etheria, I seriously doubt he would help. It took an awful lot of convincing to get him to help Valanice

He is mostly just lazy. If I remember correctly the reason he helped you in KQ7 is because it would have been more work to scare you away.

I think your basic premise that the people we meet in the game could be doing more to help is flawed though.

I don't think they would help Graham dirrectly (afterall Graham agreed to do this solo)

The issue is that a lot of these characters have huge knowledge bases, contacts, and movement ability that all could be used. Sure it is all useless but they can pull some sort of string.

The King and Queen could just go back to Etheria, it wouldn't take much time at all, and say "Hey, royal Library... do we know anything about evil dream curses?" and then try to convince others (Especially Celes). (They don't seem to hint that they are staying behind to protect everyone).

Honestly what sort of insight they honestly thought they would come across just staying around thinking is beyond me.

Edgar I assume stayed behind since he would pretty much be the only one capable of defending the coma patients from magical attack.

The Four Winds (KQ7): I'm like 99% sure they can't leave Etheria what with being the wind there. Could be wrong. Not sure that they could help anyways, they mostly just move fast.

Oddly enough... They can leave Etheria... quite easily.

There is a dirrect connection to whatever world Daventry is in (possibly Etheria is just really far away rather then entirely in a different realm)... but honestly there doesn't seem much in the way of actually disallowing free travel back and forth.

I really don't think it is THAT hard for the powerful Etherians to travel through. Plus I'd actually outright assume the Genie could teleport right to Etheria anyway.

[KatieHal]

We tend to treat Etheria like a place that's far away more than a different world entirely, although it never comes up in TSL, so it's never stated one way or the other.

And obviously, gameplay-wise, it's Graham's game, so he's gotta do the heavy lifting. As for the Dreamweaver and Mab, that's touched on in Episode 5. As for written records, what we were trying to get across with the story that unfolds on the scroll (and maybe with Ep 5 this'll be more clear), is that much of this story is REALLY old and a lot of it is unwritten. Graham does have Shamir helping out, for example, popping away to do research, and even he's barely able to find any real information, don't forget.

[Deloria]

What always really annoyed me was that we had the genie do research. A genie who is as old as time and frankly was probably around the last time there was a conflict of this magnitude There is no rational reason he should have to do research and couldn't be doing something more useful.

[darthkiwi]

I do wonder about the genie. I mean, anyone literate can do research. Why would you ask the most powerful being imaginable, who is bound to you to do anything at all, to do research?

I mean, yes, he has to be taken out of the story somehow otherwise the story would just be "Graham used the genie; the end". But this problem has already been solved: genies have a weakness. This is why Alhazred didn't just automatically win in KQ6. All you need to do to get Shamir out of the picture is have Shadrack slip him some mint.

[KatieHal]

Also, Shamir's research isn't taking place in a library on the islands--he's having to travel quite far & wide in the world (I think he says something about that at one point in the conversations with Graham).

[Neonivek]

Also, Shamir's research isn't taking place in a library on the islands--he's having to travel quite far & wide in the world (I think he says something about that at one point in the conversations with Graham).

I assume even more then that. Afterall he is a possitively ancient magical being and probably possesses his own large knowledge of all things magical as well as being a servant to a black cloak himself and thus privy to some secret information.

If anyone would know where the best magical libraries are it would be him.

I mean, anyone literate can do research. Why would you ask the most powerful being imaginable, who is bound to you to do anything at all, to do research?

Because as Katie said basically the Genie can do research anywhere he knows of.

I actually had the opposite reaction as you Deloria and Darthkiwi. I thought he was freekishly helpful in a game full of people who don't seem to be doing anything.

Research is actually invaluable to find someone you cannot find, cure a spell you cannot dispell, and learn about a society you don't know about. All three which is rather vital.

I mean, yes, he has to be taken out of the story somehow otherwise the story would just be "Graham used the genie; the end". But this problem has already been solved: genies have a weakness. This is why Alhazred didn't just automatically win in KQ6.

Well even without that "weakness" there is never one magical fix for every problem in Kings Quest (Hense why none of magical faeries ever given you more dirrect help). Shamir cannot break the spell and he cannot find any of the black cloaks with his magic.

I don't know why the fact that a Genie's powers may have limits ever really need to be explained personally. I guess it comes from a modern perception that a Genie's wishes are basically omnipotent.

Also though I am sure there are people who will say otherwise... I think Genies don't all have the same powers in Kings Quest. Given Shamir's reluctance to kill you in 6 and that other genie in the other game pretty much just blasting you to death in another without even being commanded.

And obviously, gameplay-wise, it's Graham's game, so he's gotta do the heavy lifting

Plus even ignoring this very meta answer, you can easily point to the fact that Graham outright insisted he do this journey alone, and I am sure that most people there realise this and have faith in his ability.

Which the only character I feel this affects is Edgar, but I still suspect he was actually doing things without Graham knowing.

is that much of this story is REALLY old and a lot of it is unwritten

Yeah but even then there have been a few characters in Kings Quest who would legitimately be old enough to remember that (I actually assume the Fates outright gave you that vision earlier)

The story has to be pretty fantastically old to escape being written down. I mean, one of the Muses would have had to of heard the story. Things get skewed when we are dealing with beings who live thousands of years.

I actually suspected magic obscured their history similar to the way time is being manipulated (well ok my FIRST instinct was that they were a very well hidden society, but the game pretty much says they didn't start out as a secret). It would actually make a lot of sense why no one remembers and why there are few records in a world where immortal timeless beings exist if they developed a way to essentially erase all traces of themselves physically and mentally.