Hackers, Virus Writers, Spammers, etc.

[dew7]

What can we do about the threat that is caused by these modern day war-mongers.  They operate in cyber space anonymously and cause people's computers to be shutdown, have Blue Screens of Death and other problems.  I am starting this post because I would like some ideas om how to deal with this problem.  I do not think that this thread offends anyone except for the people who are trying to make the use of computers really hard for the rest of us.

[Jeysie]

I think this falls firmly into the camp of "Wouldn't it be nice if everybody..."

In this case, "Wouldn't it be nice if everyone knew enough about computers to make their systems safe, or at least enough not to undermine the IT department's methods of doing so?"

(OK, there's also the obvious, "Wouldn't it be nice if people didn't make life difficult by making viruses in the first place?", but that's even more of a pipe dream.)

IMHO, there's no real good way to get the virus makers themselves to stop directly. After all, non-electronic crimes have been going on, well, forever, and those are a lot easier to prosecute! And people are going to make viruses as long as there's some kind of kick to get out of it.

If we could lessen the kick from it, people would be less likely to bother. But the only way to do that is to get everyone's computer set up so that viruses don't do anything because they get caught and erased.

I read this article the other day:

http://www.virtuelvis.com/archives/148.html

It's obviously about Linux, not viruses, but a lot of what it says about why the author feels Linux isn't getting a lot of market share applies to why more computers aren't secure.

I've worked in offices with many people who just don't know anything about computers. They push buttons, their computer does stuff, that's the extent of their knowledge. Even trying to explain basic stuff like choosing a printer to print to or making an internet shortcut on the desktop makes their eyes glaze over... how to explain some of the more complicated methods of securing a computer and keeping it that way? I tried explaining how the virus scanners work to some people, and ended up with a response of "Well, at least it works somehow."

Of course, even with regular scanner updates and admonitions not to open files unless they were expect them, and to phone the file senders if unsure, my co-workers systems still got infected occasionally. And the spyware programs! Once I saw someone run AdAware on an office system, and it showed 180 spyware-type programs!

To be honest, I'm not sure viruses will stop being a threat unless we can somehow convince more people to learn about their computers, or until someone creates an OS that's already secure without the user having to think about it unless they want to and that everyone will want to switch to (the catch, as always).

Considering how people/society as a whole "work(s)" right now, the current states of Linux and Mac, and Microsoft's crappy track record... it doesn't look good, Captain.

Peace & Luv, Liz

[dew7]

   Do you think that people should be required to get a computer id. in order to use a computer?  This id. would require that you know the basics of computers and the cyber threats that exist.  
   People have wondered why I like computers so much.  The reason is that if you can use a computer well then lots of opportunities are open to you.  Many businesses require computer skills and as time goes on I think the computer will become even more important.  Google is a nice search engine for web-pages of interest.  You can read the news on-line, find out the weather, play games with a computer, listen to music, and the list goes on and on.  These are a few reasons that I like computers so much and why I am so passionate about having a secure working computer.

[Say]

I am a complete nerd (or so I believe) when it comes to e-commerce (and I actually did my thesis on this) and obviously being passionate about business, my reality is e-business, I understand what you say and I agree, not many business related managers tend to realize the potencial that is gathered in technology (or so to speak internet and software and equiptment) but also to mention that many are also ignorant about the knowledge of common rules on this matter, for example, I do know (it happened at my campus) we DO have a business field, and none of the business (or even MORE sad to say computer field) teachers were that acquainted (sp?) with the subject about internet safety (ironicly my third variably  on my field-document research was based on most prefered/used secure protocols/systems of online transaction) and one of the things I do remember from when it was at beggining of the research is the fact that safety should start from the user all the way to the business responsability, because it is a reality that you get the need to be protected due all the "internet junk" many online companies tend to use in proper ways to get them into a wider e-marketing target or client database which in the end it all turns out to be just more junk and a very bad way to approach a target into a market. So, wrapping up, it is important in business to have the knowledge of this in order to use the resources in the best possible way into the most efficient manner, and it is obvious that staff training is a must (as in how to know how to use these things), and it is very funny how many ppl dont even freaking know what Norton is  , thanks heavens there is tech support then, it is scary to believe how many business management are taken away in such wrong terms and so much lack of skill and also accurate methods.

[Kimmie]

i suppose the best place to put my bad news is in here coz its computer related.
sigh. because of stupid ppl and their stupid virus things floating round my computer must hav got the worst and so i have to take my computer to be repaired which also means most probably that all my music etc will be taken off, which i am so not happy about because i hav a lot of music on here   so it means not only will i be gone from the forums for a while but also from msn, which means i cant get things sorted with a certain person some of u may know.  
urgh i curse the person/people who made this virus. i curse all the people who make viruses just for theitr own little bit of fun. thank u very much u poo heads, it means i hav to pay for something with very little money especially with mum out of a job all becuase u want to unleash a new and better virus than the last moron.
ahem...rant over
i dont know when i will take it in, but it will be soon i think. so im just lettin u guys know where i hav gone

cya later

[Oldbushie]

You could always request that your important stuff be exported to another hard drive for a small fee if formatting is required... I did that once when my hard drive got corrupted.

[B'rrr]

hahaha, great idea dew!! ; )

lol, I usually format my computers twice a year or so, just to clean everyting up and get a fresh start ; )

[dew7]

You make sure you back up the information you need to save first, I hope.  :>

[B'rrr]

lol, of course!! ; )

...I usually transfer it to another comp(in case i clean up my Laptop, which doesn't have a cd writer) or burn a cd (normal PC)

[Louisiana Night]

As far as spam goes, I haven't gotten any in over a year. Well, unless you count getting e-mails sent back to me, after submitting my auditions(I had to resubmit them).

As far as viruses go, most of them can be avoided with limited knowledge. Avoid e-mails that you don't trust(spam), and never open attachments with .exe or .com(I don't mean websites) at the end. Also never run/download files, when you don't know where they came from(P2P). Most important of all, NEVER use Realplayer!(consider this a joke if you want, but I had to run Windows without system/win.ini)

If you have an "always on connection" you probably need a firewall. If you are really paranoid, you can always remove your connection when you aren't using it(assuming it's not something like cable).

You could also choose an OS that is unpopular or more secure. BeOS as an example of unpopular, Linux/Windows NT/2000/XP for secure.

I think I just made a post of what everyone here already knows.  

P.S. Kimmie, if you don't mind the possibility of making your PC worse, try this.

click start
click run
type msconfig
press OK
click the startup button/tab
uncheck anything that seems unnecessary/suspicious
click OK

[Jeysie]

Of course, evolution is a lie... heck, it's only been proved to occur by decades of independent scientific studies from all fields of science. Debating about it would be pretty pointless.

As for something more pertinent... I didn't use WinXP extensively enough to know whether it's more or less secure than other OSs. But I wouldn't touch WinXP for a large number of other reasons, ranging from bad compatibility with old games and programs, to the fact that it's large and clunky, to its lousy, time-consuming interface.

Peace & Luv, Liz

[Louisiana Night]

The main reason I keep mentioning NT/2000/XP, is because of FAT32. I'm against FAT32(used in win9x/ME), it's not stable, compared to the alternatives. If the Win9x line used something better, I'd probably agree with you. If the machine is unstable in the first place, it makes the virus worse(if it is minor).

[B'rrr]

IMO, even evolution is a lie and DoubleSpeak.  I will let that one point die as it stands because I do not want to bring up the religion topic again and have a locked thread.  Yikes!  I just love to bring up controversial topics -- Sorry Say -- I couldn't resist -- LOL            Many people have been fooled by this lie so don't feel too bad and no disrepect -- I just try and say it like it is and I welcome anyone who disagrees with me because then we can have a thoughtful debate on which part of my reasoning needs to be corrected  :>

well, you just brought it up   ...with casual comments like this discussions are created...

to prove my point:

Of course, evolution is a lie... heck, it's only been proved to occur by decades of independent scientific studies from all fields of science. Debating about it would be pretty pointless.

it would be pointless if it is debated on this forum ; (

...just to let other members know not to comment on those part of the posts ...thank you   ...but feel free to contact eachother about it ...personally ; )

[dew7]

Thanks, Brrr for smoothing that over.  I appreciate it.  The last thing we need is members hating each other over very strong personnel views.
Anyway, NTFS is more secure -- I accept that but more stable -- I never heard that from anyone in microsoft discussion groups or when Microsoft has e-mailed me about information when I have e-mailed them
LN where did you get your information?  I have used Fat32 with my 98SE machine for years without a problem -- yes less secure -- no encryption except through third party but less stable -- are you sure?  Thanks again for your comments and no hard feelings.  I just want the truth about computers to prevail since I am so passionate about this subject.

[Say]

IMO, even evolution is a lie and DoubleSpeak.  I will let that one point die as it stands because I do not want to bring up the religion topic again and have a locked thread.  Yikes!  I just love to bring up controversial topics -- Sorry Say -- I couldn't resist -- LOL            Many people have been fooled by this lie so don't feel too bad and no disrepect -- I just try and say it like it is and I welcome anyone who disagrees with me because then we can have a thoughtful debate on which part of my reasoning needs to be corrected  :>

Dew, email is quite a helpful tool you know? you may even encript if if you like, even better, you should install MSN (oh yeah microsoft is everyone's friend! lol <---stupid joke, no need to bite my head off) Im tired saying this, so sincerely next time I wont even bother to reply. No more comments. Period.

Webstaff, check your email.

[Storm]

* Storm hurries and posts before the thread gets locked

I think this falls firmly into the camp of "Wouldn't it be nice if everybody..."

In this case, "Wouldn't it be nice if everyone knew enough about computers to make their systems safe, or at least enough not to undermine the IT department's methods of doing so?"

You can't expect home users to know enough about computer security to keep their system secure - many users I know can't even install a new programs, let alone use them (and the fact that all those programs are in English doesn't exactly help there). These low-lever users need someone to secure their computer - install the antivirus, firewall, automatic updates etc. for them, and to give them some basic instructions on how to keep their system safe (not to recive files, open email etc.) the same way they need someone to install their computer and show them how to use it in the firstplace. Not everyone wants to be (or in my case, can be) tech-savvy

My "Wouldn't it be nice if..." in this case is "Wouldn't it be nice if all the software companies invested more in testing to make their products more secure before releasing them on the unwary public" or "Wouldn't it be nice if everyone were monitoring outgoing traffic on their server" or even "Wouldn't it be nice if everyone were using a protocol that's more secure than TCP/IP"

  Do you think that people should be required to get a computer id. in order to use a computer?  This id. would require that you know the basics of computers and the cyber threats that exist.  

What's next? "driving tests" for new computer owner?

Giving out a pamphlet about security risks with every new computer wouldn't be such a bad idea though

[Jeysie]

...just to let other members know not to comment on those part of the posts ...thank you   ...but feel free to contact eachother about it ...personally ; )

I apologize. I was honestly more irritated over the fact that Dew keeps bringing up those sorts of comments even though you and Say have explicitly told him not to.

You can't expect home users to know enough about computer security to keep their system secure - many users I know can't even install a new programs, let alone use them (and the fact that all those programs are in English doesn't exactly help there). These low-lever users need someone to secure their computer - install the antivirus, firewall, automatic updates etc. for them, and to give them some basic instructions on how to keep their system safe (not to recive files, open email etc.) the same way they need someone to install their computer and show them how to use it in the firstplace. Not everyone wants to be (or in my case, can be) tech-savvy

I can understand that. But the problem is that even desktop computers are fairly powerful. Depending on how and where you use it, if you're not careful, unscrupulous people can do anything from reading sensitive data, to using your computer for DOS attacks against other servers or distributing files, to figuring out how to access your online accounts, or even just trashing your computer with viruses and such.

Unless you either have a tech-savvy friend (as in, one who really is tech-saavy, and doesn't just claim to be), or you pay someone to help you out initially, and then *always* follow their rules, you have to learn to secure your system yourself.

It's like leaving your house unlocked, coming home to find your stuff has all been stolen, and then telling the police you didn't lock your house because you didn't know how. If you leave your computer "unlocked", bad stuff might happen, there's no way around it.

My "Wouldn't it be nice if..." in this case is "Wouldn't it be nice if all the software companies invested more in testing to make their products more secure before releasing them on the unwary public" or "Wouldn't it be nice if everyone were monitoring outgoing traffic on their server" or even "Wouldn't it be nice if everyone were using a protocol that's more secure than TCP/IP"

I agree, I definitely think that creators of OSs and programs need to take more steps to ensure their creations are secure.

However, nobody's perfect, so OSs or programs are likely going to always have at least a few overlooked vulnerabilities. Plus there's the fact that any OS or program designed to be networked *has* to be inherently somewhat vulnerable, so files can be shared. In that case, only the individual user will be able to know what sharing settings they need, and which they don't. Security can be made a lot easier than it is now, but it can never be made totally automatic or "hands-off"... someone's always going to have to know at least a few settings.

Finally, I think viruses will always exist... and most viruses are spread by people opening up unknown files. Virus scanners help, but they can't always pick up viruses that are ultra-brand-new. AFAIK, nobody's invented a program that can automatically control users from opening suspicious files.

What's next? "driving tests" for new computer owner?

With computers becoming prevalent as they are nowadays, everyone should ideally have some kind of access to a computer, so licensing would be a bad idea. But just like you're not allowed to legally use a car until you know how, people have to realize that if you're going to use a computer, you'll have to invest the time to learn at least some basic things, unless you can afford to have a 24/7 tech support guru on house call. There's no way around that, either. :-/

Giving out a pamphlet about security risks with every new computer wouldn't be such a bad idea though

It might help... although in my experience, with some people, even after you tell them what not to do, they often go and do it anyway, and then whine their computer's messed up.

Peace & Luv, Liz

[dew7]

Sorry, Say, I apologize.  I know that I use a Bios password and screen saver password which cannot be end tasked with ctrl-alt-del because my housemates have used my computer before and two different roomates ended up messing up my computer.  One roomate caused a blue screen of death and I had to use GoBack Deluxe by Roxio (now Symantec) to recover the damage.  Another roomate did something that caused the orange warning light to light up on my machine and it was unstable.  Again, I used GoBack to return to a safe configuration and henceforth have banned all users from my computers except myself of course.    See I wasn't being selfish --- I just want my computer to run and the way I configure it causes non-techies to be very confused.  My next step is studying the autoexec.bat and config.sys in depth followed by an indepth study of analyzing and editing the registry to run the way I want it to run.  Currently, I am reading the Windows 98 Secrets book by Straub and Livingston.

[Storm]

It's like leaving your house unlocked, coming home to find your stuff has all been stolen, and then telling the police you didn't lock your house because you didn't know how. If you leave your computer "unlocked", bad stuff might happen, there's no way around it.

I'll go with your analogy there - of course you have to secure your home, but that doesn't mean you have to install the door or the alarm system yourself - you can have someone else do it, and just make sure you keep the door locked and the alarm turned on

With computers becoming prevalent as they are nowadays, everyone should ideally have some kind of access to a computer, so licensing would be a bad idea. But just like you're not allowed to legally use a car until you know how, people have to realize that if you're going to use a computer, you'll have to invest the time to learn at least some basic things, unless you can afford to have a 24/7 tech support guru on house call. There's no way around that, either. :-/

Of course you have to know how to use a computer if you intend to use one - pretty much in the same way you have to know how to drive a car to benefit from owning one. But you can't (and shouldn't be able to) force people to have a license for their computer. You could claim people who don't keep their systems secure pose a threat to others since their system could be hacked and used for DDOS attacks, but that would be like blaming someone who left his door unlocked for a burgler who broke into his apartment and climbed out its window and into the apartment next door

*edited*

sayedit-> it was reported, sorry.

[dew7]

Please do not bring up guns for this is a controversial topic -- just like religion and may cause hate
I am open to ideas for solving the hacker problem.