Poll

Who Likes Silver Linining part 4?

Yes
11 (55%)
No
5 (25%)
Maybe
0 (0%)
So So
4 (20%)
OK
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 19

Author Topic: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?  (Read 13713 times)

Offline Neonivek

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2013, 03:56:31 PM »
Dang it Cez, you now deconfirmed the ending I was hoping was going to happen.

No really you just did >_<

Offline KatieHal

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2013, 04:22:39 PM »
That everyone dies Greek tragedy style...?


I also want to reiterate, even (especially?) for those who didn't like some of the puzzles, that yes, we really do hear you and listen :) And getting the detailed feedback does help a lot. We've been taking that into consideration throughout TSL and now with Cognition and will continue to do so. So, thank you for this!

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Offline Deloria

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2013, 04:33:13 PM »
Cesar:
Greek tragedy is still relevant today because it's about intersocietal conflicts and the situations in which individuals find themselves while they try to function within a society that may work against them. This is relevant to almost every plot out there. What makes these stories special is not the fact that they are Greek, but rather that they are universally valid; they are simply examples of very well told stories and are used as archetypes for good stories. The only stories they will make you think negatively about are stories that may have been lacking to begin with; I have just recently been given the vocabulary and thought processes to explain why they are not good stories, but that doesn't mean I've not always thought them bad.

It's not that I like Greek tragedies because they are Greek or dislike the direction TSL's plot has taken because it isn't "Greek". It's that I feel more educated as to what I consider good or bad with regard to storytelling because I've been exposed to tragedies and stories, the plots of which have been refined extensively through generations of oral tradition and mythological culture. These things are good because of generations of trial and error in storytelling. Most modern things can't compare because they haven't been honed and refined over nearly the same amount of time - but they can learn from them. I do think TSL is a very ambitious project and I do think it's an incredible feat. I just don't really like your take on prophecies. However, I do not know what the last episode holds and I'm very much looking forward to experiencing that. :) When examining the whole story in context I'm sure it's a lot better than just the fragmented version of it I have now. :)

Katie:
Katie, not all Greek tragedies end in -or even necessarily include- death. Greek theatre is very much about society and how individuals operate within it, as stated before. In tragedies, this works by looking at an individual who operates in society and how an act of hubris the individual commits leads to his or her existing outside of society, sometimes, but usually not, by dying. There are a few exceptions where most people end up dying, such as Antigone, but it's really not the norm. :P English and Renaissance tragedy (like Shakespeare) is actually much bloodier/full of death and tends to focus not on individuals falling from their station in society, but actually about dying. :)

Edit: I was grumpy. I'm sorry.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 11:35:51 AM by Deloria »
 
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Offline GrahamRocks!

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2013, 05:02:06 PM »
Dang it Cez, you now deconfirmed the ending I was hoping was going to happen.

No really you just did >_<
Oh really? And what was your crazy theory this time, Neo?

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Offline Cez

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2013, 06:04:58 PM »
Relevant --absolutely.

A guide that must be followed to the t. --well, that would be extremely boring if you knew what exactly to expect from every story? The Greek Classics had their time, they are still relevant and influential through these days, but we cannot be forever reusing the same elements in the same way as they were originally created. Otherwise, what's the point of writing new stories?

And yes, there will be another encounter in the last episode of the game, but this one will definitely strip down the more reflex/action elements found in Ep4.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 06:29:57 PM by Cez »


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Offline Neonivek

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2013, 07:44:26 PM »
Dang it Cez, you now deconfirmed the ending I was hoping was going to happen.

No really you just did >_<
Oh really? And what was your crazy theory this time, Neo?

Don't worry, they might surprise you.

The "None of the above" ending where Graham betrays the storybook nature of his existance to create a balance between light and darkness. Thus ending the story once and for all.

Instead of chosing between light and darkness and following what fate has perscribed.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 07:48:42 PM by Neonivek »

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2013, 01:39:51 PM »
This writing discussion makes me laugh.  Just a reminder that TSL is fan fiction, with all the usual cliches that that entails.  Surprise, surprise, it doesn't hold up to classical literature.  ;)

Offline KatieHal

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2013, 02:10:32 PM »
The Greek Tragedy thing was a joke, in any case.

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Offline GrahamRocks!

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2013, 02:46:06 PM »
This writing discussion makes me laugh.  Just a reminder that TSL is fan fiction, with all the usual cliches that that entails.  Surprise, surprise, it doesn't hold up to classical literature.  ;)
And it's very, very GOOD fan fiction to me! I consider it canon practically. Although, I do have to ask two minor things about the characterization of Graham (whom except for these two things is really spot on, game-wise and Companion-wise) :

1. When you get the candy in episode 2, and you 'look' at it in your inventory, Amy The Narrator says "Graham has never been one for sweets, really." But, according to the Companion, Graham has a HUGE sweet tooth even as an adult. In fact, one of the reasons he goes adventuring so often is so he can exercise off all the food he eats (he actually likes food in general too), since he doesn't want to be known as "King Graham the Overweight".

He still looks pretty handsome as an old man to me regardless.

2. In episode 3 and 4 (I can't remember specifically which one), when Graham is talking to Hakim about his adventure, Graham says, "I'm sorry, my memory isn't what it used to be." even though it's been mentioned before in the Companion that Graham has an EXCELLENT memory which enables him to memorize something from a book from just a glance and is probably part of the reason why he did so good in school. This "I have a terrible memory" thing also bugs me because of the scene where The Ranger (is that his name? or is it just Ranger?) takes his scroll and shows him the story of the War of The Silver Cloaks, because after Graham figures out what's going on (the Black Cloaks messing around with time) he acts like he's never read the scroll or has forgotten what it said already.

King Graham... I love your character, really I do, but sometimes you can be so dumb! 

Offline Neonivek

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2013, 03:00:00 PM »
Well the second can at LEAST be explained that Graham is really really old.

The first COULD be explained that he does looooove sweets but never eats them because he keeps thinking about getting fat. (but yeah that is stretching it)

Offline KatieHal

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2013, 03:08:42 PM »
In regards to these...

1) We only take what was in the games themselves as canon as far as reference material. The Companion information is more touch and go--we did reference it while writing and designing the game, but obviously we put our own spin on a lot of things. (Personally, I find some of the Companion explanations lacking and contradictory, but YMMV.)

2) I'd have to go look at the scenes to remember exactly what was said when...it's been a while! It's possible maybe it has to do with the order you ran into these particular events, maybe? But yeah, I'd need to look at it to answer more firmly. And yes, so far, he's just "The Ranger." :)

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Offline GrahamRocks!

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2013, 06:29:15 PM »

2) I'd have to go look at the scenes to remember exactly what was said when...it's been a while! It's possible maybe it has to do with the order you ran into these particular events, maybe? But yeah, I'd need to look at it to answer more firmly. And yes, so far, he's just "The Ranger." :)
...You can do it in a different order?

Offline KatieHal

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2013, 06:40:57 PM »
Maybe I misunderstood--did you mean a specific thing he says or that he acts like he doesn't know about the scroll/plan in general?

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Offline GrahamRocks!

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2013, 07:47:41 PM »
Uhhh... let me get back to you on that one. I'll have to check again once I get my laptop back.

Anyway, yes, I loved The Silver Lining episodes very much! They aren't perfect of course, but what story is? I can read a story that is rife with cliches as long as I enjoy reading it and going on an adventure.

It's why I love the Inheritance Cycle (even though I've only read half so far but I like what I see), despite that it has Fantasy cliches up the wazoo: I enjoy the story despite that.

It's why I love the Warriors series, despite most stopping after the Power of Three arc because of "too much forbidden love and not enough violence as the older books" (despite there already being quite a bit of the former in the earlier books, and really violence can't solve everything) : I enjoy it because I like the characters and setting.

It's why I love the Star Wars prequels and The Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, despite both enciting cries of "BETRAYAL!!!": I enjoy them because it gives us a chance to see what life was like in the past and how they were later in life respectfully. I fully admit they are cheesy, but I don't care. Yes, I realize both could have been written better, but I think all stories good or bad can be. It doesn't stop me from enjoying it regardless.

Go on, Lamb. Go on. Berate me for liking those things. I dare you! I really wouldn't be surprised since you and I NEVER seem to agree on anything so far, including Star Wars.

Offline Deloria

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2013, 08:02:22 PM »
If I may ask, are there works of art/stories that you dislike? :) If so, why and what about them bothers you?
 
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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2013, 08:39:28 PM »
Go on, Lamb. Go on. Berate me for liking those things. I dare you! I really wouldn't be surprised since you and I NEVER seem to agree on anything so far, including Star Wars.

Haha...nah.  I like KOTCS, but it's easily my least favorite of the four Indy flicks.  It has moments of sheer brilliance, but suffers from terrible pacing.  It's a badly edited movie, plain and simple, which is a shame, because the IDEA behind it is brilliant.  I honestly don't even mind the sillier bits of humor or improbable escapes.  Anyway, it's just good enough to make me wish it was better.  I still had to own it when it came out on blu-ray.

And I didn't HATE the Star Wars prequels.  I still watch them when they come on TV, and one of these days I'll pick up the blu-ray set to complement my original trilogy set.  Again, another missed opportunity for the franchise, in my opinion.  Just good enough to make me wish they were better.

Offline GrahamRocks!

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2013, 10:09:24 PM »
@Deloria

Hmmm...

Well, I know you're gonna hate me for this, Deloria. But... I've never really liked Shakespeare all that much. Granted, all I remember reading is Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet and I think Twelfth Night (I don't exactly remember since it was several years ago. All I can remember clearly is me finding a line I recognized from a game title I saw on Big Fish Games, which was "Westward Ho!" and briefly being excited before moving on), so my views might be a little scewed because I haven't read EVERY play.

I DO remember watching a Shakespeare play (name slips my mind. Had the beginning as an actual stage, then changed to IIRC a scene on a ship on the high seas which I thought was a REALLY cool transition!) which I thought was... okay.

My reason for not liking Shakespeare is:

The stories are WAAAAAY too drawn out, with too much dialogue with almost no action breaks. An example for me, would be Hamlet. Dear Lord, that was so dull to me! It was just DIALOGUE and no more! Oh sure, things did get somewhat interesting once they had that girl's funeral (See? I can't even bother to remember her name! That's how boring I thought it was!) and everyone started arguing. But, that soon was forgotten by me as we went back to boring. The most interesting thing was the final swordfight between Hamlet and his rival. I thought to myself, "FINALLY some action!" as they challenged eachother... and then we cut ahead, not even SHOWING the fight (because it was a playscript, I assumed there was going to be actions like (this) or [this] with sounds of clashing steel in the script) and we show them both hurt, and they soon die afterwards. In fact pretty much EVERYONE dies!

I don't remember nearly enough of Romeo and Juliet or Twelfth Night (If that was what I was reading) to really give my stance on it.

"But wait," you might say. "What about TSL? The first two episodes- especially the first one -were mostly just dialogue too! There wasn't any real action until episode 3 with the awesome Dreamworld Tower sequence with the awesome music!"

Well, yes, that is true. BUT, the difference between TSL and Shakespeare is that TSL actually INTERESTED me! I knew most of the characters (aside from a few from 7 which I hadn't watched Enchantermon's LP of yet to recognize) and the stories that had come before this thanks to Paw, TV Tropes and a dash of Toegoff to get me going. I was actually invested in the story (cliche as it was), and wanted to see how it ended, whether it was on a high or downer note. I WANTED to see what would happen to these characters in the end, because you guys made me care about them! In fact, playing through TSL has made me interested in going back to how it all started with King Graham in KQ1 in 1984 and playing through all of them myself, just to see how it all ties together. Yes, including MoE. Who knows- I might end up with the same reaction I did when I first saw Cedric: non-annoyance and non-hatred. 

With Shakespeare, I didn't care about these characters at all. The stories just drag on and on.

I'm sorry if you hate me now, my Queene.
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And speaking of dragging on and on... I HATE BOTH THE BOOK AND MOVIE "EMMA"!!!! The movie because I had to watch it for school (I had a section in my homeschooling for one grade where I had to watch a movie we had rented, or in the case of The Quiet Man bought, and I had to write down answers to questions about the movies in the book we were using. That part of the program wasn't my problem with Emma- I got to watch The Raiders of the Lost Ark for the hundredth time due to this which I loved, and got my first glimpse of Alfred Hitchcock thanks to it. I love Rear Window!), and it was the most boring, dull, drawn out, non-interesting love story I'd ever seen in my life! It wasn't even like Shakespeare, where it had a few interesting scenes, this only had one, which was the opening with the spinning ball.

I didn't like the movie because I felt that it went on for HOURS! It was apparently 120 minutes according to Wikipedia, but it felt like TWICE that! Just get on with it already!

I didn't like the book (in fact when I read my schedule I internally groaned in horror) for the same reasons, PLUS the fact that I now know that Emma is NOT a very likable character. She's a spoiled (which I admit I am too, but I was at least a sweet kid regardless and still am according to some people) brat who manipulates her so-called "friends" without viewing the consequences!
-
The Last Airbender... hoo boy! I hated that too! I am a HUGE fan of Avatar: The Last Airbender (and I feel ashamed that I STILL haven't watched The Legend of Korra yet!), having watched it from the beginning of its run and own all three complete books DVDs with pride.

When I first heard about the movie being made from a friend I'd met on a cruise (Mari), for about a minute I was excited... and then she told me that, according to the trailer, "Iroh looks young!"

Immediate red flag in my mind.

I watched the trailers, and as I heard more and more news, my dread crept over me that this was going to suck comes over me like Avoozl over Mordavia.

Finally, the movie premiered. Like always, I saw it on opening day with my Grandma after watching the entirety of Book 1 the day before (I WANTED Grandma to watch them with me so she would get context of how the show and story was. She refused to watch more than the pilot, which to me, is NOT enough to experience how the characters are! Yes, it established them, but that's it. We don't see much of what they can do in the pilot or how they grow as characters in just the pilot!), and I can actually remember saying in the theater as the opening titles began, "Okay... I can do this. I can do this!"

I fully admit, I went into this movie knowing it was going to be bad (unlike The Spiderwick Chronicles, which I didn't like either but for different reasons).

The characters are flat and poorly acted, with no life in their eyes. ESPECIALLY Aang! He's supposed to be a happy go lucky little kid who is an optimit and loves to have fun with his friends! Yes, he does break down and get serious in the later seasons, but that's not suppoed to happen for awhile yet and the actor who plays him acts like some view Alexander: Mopey and angsty due to what's happened to him. I remember seeing him smile ONCE in the movie, and all others times, blank or bewildered. And, there was no romantic tension between him and Katara like in the show. In the show, it was apparent from the camera angle in the pilot, that when they met eyes for the first time that they saw something in eachother. In the movie, I didn't see ANY hints of that at all! Grandma said she did, but I know I didn't.

The ONLY things I liked about that movie was the music (which was good) and the set design (for example, The Northern Water Tribe looked pretty accurate which was nice!).

And you wanna know the wort part of all this? I, of course hated it practically from the start. My grandma however?...Just guess!
-
I would say more, but it's getting late here. 11:09 PM to be exact.

@Lamb Bad pacing? Really? Huh. I didn't notice it all that much. And, of course they could be written better! Pretty much ANYTHING can be written better in the right hands!   
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 10:37:02 PM by GrahamRocks! »

Offline Neonivek

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2013, 11:39:26 PM »
Quote
with too much dialogue with almost no action breaks

One thing to remember about Shakespeare is that they weren't written for mass consumption they were essentially notes that were edited by his ENTIRE troop (yes that is right. Even Shakespeare didn't write Shakespeare).

So there really could have been more action.

Also the play I like to bring up whenever I am feeling "Shakespeare is overrated" is Titus Andronicus with the most disappointing nonsense I have ever seen. Were it written by anyone else it would have been decried as uttar drivel scribed only by what can be described as a hack.

It also is the play that to me is the most clear that Shakespeare isn't as nuanced as people give him credit. That his gender roles weren't so progressive.

Then again Shakespeare's problem is that people actively push his work and give it undue praise.

I once went on a Orwell is overrated but later I found out that every criticism I placed against his work, Orwell himself confirmed. So who knew.

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2013, 12:20:26 AM »
Lol.  And there you have it: TSL > Shakespeare.

Thread over.

Offline Deloria

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Re: Who likes Silver Lining Part 4?
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2013, 07:19:05 AM »
Lork:
You're entitled to these opinions, even if I don't agree with them. I feel as though your problem may have been a lack of understanding of the core issues and problems within the play, because the context often isn't given in schools. These people are grappling with issues that we as people from the 21st century can't begin to understand because our core values are very differently placed. Was the language barrier an issue too?

<Darthkiwi swooshes in and finishes Deloria's post because Deloria is le tired>
Re. Shakespeare's role as writer within an acting group - it's true his work would have been reworked by his actors, but we actually don't have his rough notes (or "foul papers" as academics call them, for some reason). However, we do have two kinds of texts: folio versions, from the "First Folio", which was an official publication of a lot of his plays, and "quarto" versions, which were basically pirated versions. They were either written down by audience members who wanted to sell the pirated copies, or rewritten from memory by actors who were in the plays. There isn't really more action in the quarto versions as opposed to the folio ones, and we're pretty sure the quarto versions represent more or less what actually happened onstage. But you do tend to get fewer speeches, or more streamlined plots - scenes are sometimes rearranged to reduce two parallel plots to a single, linear plot, which would be easier to follow. Also consider that Shakespeare's language was quite different from our own not just in vocabulary but in pronunciation: people have acted out these plays with an Elizabethan accent and they've found that they tend to be about half an hour shorter. So if a play seems to long, it might actually BE too long in our 21st century speech.

Re. Titus - well yeah, obviously. Any play which can end a scene with "Okay, well I'll carry one of the severed heads of my sons, but only one, since my hand has been cut off. Can you carry the other one, and, since you have had both hands cut off, can you carry MY hand in your teeth?" is not going for subtlety. But, hey, look, you're putting the bard in an awfully odd position here: one of you cries out for more action and the other one says that buckets of blood is too much. These revenge tragedies (of which Titus is one) were called "The Spectacle of Blood". If you watch The Revenger's Tragedy, The Spanish Tragedy, The Duchess of Malfi - these are all very, very violent and feature people dying left, right and centre. That's the kind of play Shakespeare was expected to write. But bear in mind, Titus was his very first tragedy. Shakespeare's revered as a monolith of literature but, remember, he was a man, and his talent didn't come from nowhere, it had to mature. Titus is his first step into tragedy and, yes, it's pretty stereotypical in that regard. His later work is much more complex.

Re. action vs dialogue - in the 16th century, people did not say they were going to *see* a play, they said they were going to *hear* a play. This is a fundamental difference between their theatre culture and ours. For them, dialogue WAS action, and there are a lot of Shakespearean scenes where characters' beliefs or intentions change due to what is said to them or what they themselves say. I mean, that's basically the plot of Othello. It's also critical to Macbeth and Lear. And these are just ones I'm picking off the top of my head. Shakespeare's plays are about society, about the role of individuals within society, about the way people can manipulate and persuade and destroy each other - and often that's through words, not daggers.

But a big hurdle for audiences today is exactly that: those words. Because, frankly, unless they're really well-acted, it can be a struggle to understand what's actually being said.

That production of Hamlet sounds pretty dull, though. They should really stage the fight scene. Shakespeare did put that in - it's really meant to be staged.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 07:20:43 AM by Deloria »
 
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