TSL Updates!

[Numbers]

Writing is definitely a good stress outlet. I had a college class in which there were barely any students and the teacher was awkward, socially inept, and could barely teach anything at all, so I just sat in the back of the class writing stuff on my laptop and not paying any attention. I still passed the class with flying colors, which says more about the (lack of) quality of the class than it does about me.

Going more into detail about my interpretation of the series, I'm looking to make it more tonally consistent than the games themselves are. KQ1 and 2 were both very similar in tone, with whimsical locales and creatures, while 3 was a step into darker territory. 4, of course, is very dark, while 5 is completely opposite of 4 in tone. 6 adopts a more serious tone while not shying away from the silliness of the earlier games. 7 fully embraces goofiness, hence my dislike of it, and once again, the series changes notes as MoE ended up being needlessly bleak and violent, to the point that it probably would've gotten an M rating if the graphics weren't so primitive. Meanwhile, the AGDI remakes have their silly moments, but are well-written enough that I like them more than the original works they were based on. TSL has a much more serious tone, while, yet again, TOG fully embraces campy territory.

I'm looking to unite them under a more focused banner. When I get around to doing the first three, they will mostly follow in the footsteps of AGDI's remakes, since, frankly, I like their versions more. 4 will be appropriately grim and dark, though I don't intend for it to enter into "grimdark" territory. 5 will be more serious while still having moments of levity. 6 will be a risky venture, to be sure, but I'll deal with that as it comes. 7 will obviously be darker than the game itself is, while Mask will be considerably lighter and less oppressive, and perhaps be foreshadowed by earlier entries so that the character of Connor doesn't come out of nowhere, and maybe a bit of TFW plot will be integrated as well. My final entry will be TSL-based, and I intend to make it more emotionally charged than the previous entries, similar to how the game itself is more dramatic than the rest. But, as I've stated before, I won't begin work on this series until TSL and TOG's chapters are both finished. I want to know the end result in both games before I start, so I don't end up making crap up as I go along.

[GrahamRocks!]

Yeah, that'd be something I'd worry about is you going TOO dark for the sake of wanting or thinking it needs to be darker. I'd imagine you're going for a darker approach... within reason, not just adding in horrible things happening to the characters, pointless death, blood and gore and so on just because it's dark and edgy.

But I should know you better than that. No matter what, I think you'll do far better than this tripe: http://wolfkroger74.deviantart.com/art/QFG-Preludes-Vol1-Pg32-555900669

[Numbers]

I won't make my treatment of KQ7 gory or anything just because I dislike the game's goofiness. However, I'm not averse to making the Boogeyman the epitome of creepiness, just because that's how the Boogeyman rolls. However, it should be noted that in the backstory to the game, the headless horseman got decapitated by Malicia's gargoyle, which was not shown onscreen for obvious reasons. I'm thinking that when I get to that part, it'll be presented in a similar manner to what happens in a movie when someone gets killed violently by a monster, but for the sake of tastefulness, you only see their silhouette.

Also...

But I should know you better than that. No matter what, I think you'll do far better than this tripe: http://wolfkroger74.deviantart.com/art/QFG-Preludes-Vol1-Pg32-555900669

King Edward: "And if it were not for this SWOLLEN GOUT and ROTTEN' JAUNDICE I would be QUESTING along side YOU!"



King Edward: "Hence it has ALLUDED I and my VETERAN KNIGHTS, we are TOO OLD and TIRED!"



Graham: "I fear not WITCH nor WING of NIGHT, while upon my QUEST I shall also FIND and KILL this DAHLIA CHILDSBANE, as well as ANYONE or anything that gets in MY way!"



...where do I even begin with dialogue like that?

[GrahamRocks!]

*bursts out laughing*

Despite my extreme dislike of this comic (and yes, the horribly stilted and grammar poor dialogue is part of that, the artwork, lack of worldbuilding, the unlikable characters, and the lack of understanding of already established lore such as Erana's Peace don't help), I keep reading it just to see how bad it can get. How low they can sink. That and I'm writing down a recap/MST type thing, and plan to eventually summarize the comic on the King's Quest Omnipedia, at least these specific parts. The rest shall be detailed in the Quest for Glory Omnipedia.

I was actually quite pissed when I saw that they f***** up Graham's character so badly in ONE LINE. Not even a Bravery!Graham would say that and that's a Graham who avenged Achaka by firing an arrow at the Dragon's eye! Say what you want about how they characterize Graham in TOG's version, even they'd never do that.

I did manage to laugh a couple times at the comic though... at times where I doubt the intent was humorous. Once at Graham's expression during a part that's SUPPOSED to be an "oh no!" moment (his face looked like this:  ), and again a little later at a line Dahlia said where she asked Graham, "How'd you get in here?!" and called her barrier magic thing a "barrier of glam" which... *giggles* I know what she's talking about, like a "glamour" spell that disguises things magically, but the way she worded it as glam just makes me think "pink sparkly girly fashion".

I won't make my treatment of KQ7 gory or anything just because I dislike the game's goofiness. However, I'm not averse to making the Boogeyman the epitome of creepiness, just because that's how the Boogeyman rolls. However, it should be noted that in the backstory to the game, the headless horseman got decapitated by Malicia's gargoyle, which was not shown onscreen for obvious reasons. I'm thinking that when I get to that part, it'll be presented in a similar manner to what happens in a movie when someone gets killed violently by a monster, but for the sake of tastefulness, you only see their silhouette.

Makes logical sense to me! I wish you all the best of luck!

[waltzdancing]

Wow, Numbers! I love that idea! I wish you all the luck with that. I was maybe 8 or 9 at the time when I met the Boogyman and because of him I became afraid of the closet and under my bed.

[Signore Buchelli]

2 posts about TSL5 at Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PhoenixOnlineStudios/posts/1151253128259451

[Numbers]

I was actually quite pissed when I saw that they f***** up Graham's character so badly in ONE LINE. Not even a Bravery!Graham would say that and that's a Graham who avenged Achaka by firing an arrow at the Dragon's eye! Say what you want about how they characterize Graham in TOG's version, even they'd never do that.

Indeed. Graham may be many things throughout his many interpretations, but one thing he definitively is not is bloodthirsty. Sure, he's killed a few of his opponents in the many different games. In KQ1, he flat out cheap shots Dahlia when she isn't looking. In KQ2+, you can have him kill the wolves if you fail to find the Wolfsbane, and he directly kills Llowh'wof. You can also choose to have him kill the lion guarding Valanice in both incarnations of the game, though you won't get a high score by doing so. In KQ5, of course, we have the infamous Yeti scene, and he takes out Mordack as well (canonically speaking). And I imagine that in TSL, besides Valanice, he stands the highest chance of being the one to deal the finishing blow on Shadrack. But he's not the king of Daventry because he enjoys killing. He only kills when he has no other choice.

[GrahamRocks!]

Indeed indeed. Taking down Dahlia here I can understand, because he's being ordered to. But everyone else who gets in his way? No, that's not Knightly at all. It cannot be a coincidence that these pages came out around AKTR's release, the setup for this being that Erasmus (or as I call him in my document, Sumsare because he's so much NOT like Erasmus that I don't even want to call him that) has been called upon by Crispinopher (who never even shows up to this meeting) and he's confronted by Manannan, Mordack and Hagatha who offer to let him join them if he goes to Daventry and kills Graham... and not only does Sumsare refuse, but it's also kind of implied that everything that's been happening in this comic is a result of Graham taking out Dahlia, so he's scapegoated too.

But I'm sure that even you're not going to take things this far. Despite you going for a darker atmosphere, I highly doubt that you're going to do this once you eventually get to Graham's games. Whether he's stoic or goofy, noble or commoner born, whether you emphasize his brain, brawn, heart or all three, the thing that nobody should forget is that Graham is a *good person* at heart. He's ALWAYS brave and kind at heart, whether he shows it or not, that's what he's known for as both a Knight and King. I never believed that he was "pure of heart" as that wording implies that he's perfect or impossible to have him do wrong like steal, cheat, lie, kill enc.

[Numbers]

Yeah, Graham can be noble without being pure of heart. In fact, when you play as him, the games often make you go out of your way to do incredibly stupid things.



Granted, some of those stupid things didn't actually happen...



...but you get my drift.

[GrahamRocks!]

Exactly.

[Rock Knight]

I want to say a few things with regard to TSL - From the last page -

I used to be a very vocal critic of TSL but I actually really liked the in-jokes in retrospect. TSL wasn't written the way a commercial sequel would be written - with the aim of bringing in a whole new generation of players. It was meant as fanservice in game form, giving the diehard fans such as us closure - even if that meant closure on every little thing. As a free, fan-made project, it was never going to bring in THAT many newbies, and I'm sure even in 2002, a much younger Cesar and Katie probably recognized that, and so they:

-Crafted a game that did its best to please the fans who loved KQ6; to go back to the Point N' Click, pure adventure glory days of the series while taking the story in a more mature direction.
-Created a game they themselves enjoyed playing. Which, really, is the most important thing to do, I think.

The in-jokes aren't overly blatant; many of them I missed on my first run-throughs. As far as sloppy writing goes, King's Quest was never Shakespeare....And when you take into account that when TSL was written, Cesar and Katie were pretty much amateurs who had never made a game before, it's pretty dang impressive.

It saddens me, actually, to think that we'll never get to see, in some form, the larger TSL that was planned those many years ago. Katie might say that bringing back ALL the baddies from the original games is too "fanficky" but isn't that the whole point of a fanfic? To indulge not only yourself, but fellow fans; to go overboard a little and tie up loose ends and just have all-out, over-the-top fun?

I lament the fact, also, that we'll never meet Tigroat or Unique in a KQ game; I think they might've made the best side-characters ever from what we were told of them. I lament the fact that Vivendi was too bottom-line oriented not to support TSL back in 2005 or so; with such support, not only would the game be finished, and closure had, but we could've gotten the full story.

I hope someday, Cesar, Katie, etc are willing to release their design documents for the much larger TSL, so at least we'll be able to see how it all played out before it unfortunately had to be condensed. Yes, warts and all.

[Rock Knight]

Seriously, just imagine an expanded TSL with these guys!










And how much more epic it could've been. It still is...I lament the old times though:

"Each part will contain three chapters. Part 1 will have the player controlling Graham to find a way to undo a dark enchantment that befell the Green Isles. During part 2 the player will take the roles of both Alexander and Rosella as they search for a mysterious prophecy they seem to be part of. Part 3 is the final match, with the three characters under the player’s control.

Each part is about the size of King’s Quest VI, with around 800-1000 pages of script each, Part 2: The Two that are One, being the longest one. Each part has a different touch both in gameplay and feel. While Part 1 is very dreary, very slow-paced and sets the tone for the two other parts to come, Part 2 is more of a classic and Part 3 is just plainly put, a rocker, being the most intense of all three."

"Regarding Fatali's comments in the forums, hmmm.... You know, one of the consequences of making a character more human is that, in order for it to be believable, it has to BE HUMAN. Humans are tempted, are put in situations where they have to succumb, or overcome temptations. The difference between Graham and Alex&Ros is that Graham is old enough to have a path set in life, and in KQ9, he will struggle to keep it, and question himself if he's good enough to do so. Graham's character struggles not to fail, already knowing what he wants.

On the other hand, both Rosella and Alexander are looking for such path. Their journeys will be ones of "Self-Discovery", as hinted in the teaser trailer that's now running in the site. I'm more kind to them two than I am to Graham in the way that I had more freedom to play with them. I've gone into Alexander many times before, so I'm not going to touch that subject, but about Rosella...

Rosella will find herself in situations where she'll probably make wrong choices. The real question is, will she make something about it? Will she come to her senses? It is a long journey, and even when it was Katie who dealt more with shaping her journey up, I remember I came in and worked on certain subplots to make her character more "interesting" if you may say so. I felt a lot of attention was given to the character arch of Alexander while Rosella needed to face more challenges, so I kinda worked in one particular subplot that Katie had shapen up, tying it up to Rosella's main dilemmas as worked in her character: The question of whether to follow your heart or your eyes, the question of taking responsablities for the actions you yourself have chosen, and the question of what Edgar and her family really means to her. The question of staying a spoiled brat or growing to be a woman.

When I studied these characters, I went deep into what life could have shapen them up to be. As I saw in Alexander the fears and traumas a guy raised by a heartless wizard could have, I saw what were the consequences of being raised an only child, in this case princess, overprotected by the fear of her parents that she would meet the same fate as her brother's. KQ7 did a pretty good job in this. She never thought of her mother along that jouney, whether we saw Valanice hyper-worried about her. She was more centered in what she could get out of it, in the excitement of the journey. These are selfish traits that were put into her character and that were worked on to a very good level. Rosella still faces some of these traits in KQ9, but in more and different depths.

Unlike Jeysie, I don't see Rosella as two different persons in KQ4 vs KQ7. This is what actually makes us more human, the fact that we won't approach every situation in the same way. In KQ4, we see a deep connection to her father. It's obvious that Rosella sees Graham as his hero, and that's actually one of Rosella's characteristics, exactly where her adventurous trait comes from.

But here's where things get more and more complicated. As you work around a character, the beauty of it is that your character takes her own life and challenges the writer. There were situations where I wanted Rosella to do this or that, but that was what César wanted or César would have done. Rosella, on the other hand, decided to act otherwise, and she kept surprising me as the journey went on and on.

Rosella, among all of the characters in the game is the one that is faced with the hardest decision of them all. It's a decision that will either make her a true heroine or make her fail, but, again, from all of the challenges that all of the characters have to face (and they are not small, but really strong in all of the cases), Rosella will have to face the worse one.

One of my favorite scenes in KQ9 is toward the end of the game where Alexander and Rosella confront one another because of some events that take place. The story normally goes twisting around reaching peaks, and that one is one of the most important peaks. It not only shows the vulnerability of these two characters, but it also shows how human these two guys really are.

Another important factor of Rosella's Journey is Unique. While Tig-R-Oat is the opposite to Alexander, Unique is more of a mirror to Rosella."

"[16:49] <Cesar_Bittar> during Part 1: Shadows, we visit the Land of the Green Isles, and the enigmatic Dreamworld.
[16:50] <Cesar_Bittar> during Part 2, we visit the lands of time, Astratos, The magic Endless Forest and Daventry Castle (Which we'll be able to explore completely)
[16:50] <Cesar_Bittar> During Part 3, Eternities, We visit Dreoria, the Land of Dragons, and the Maze of Infinity."

[17:12] <Cesar_Bittar> You get to control sidekicks such as Tigroat, Valanice, Cassima, Edgar, Unique, and Connor in some sections of the game.
[17:12] <Cesar_Bittar> but you can only use them as you would use an "item"

[17:23] <YonkMod> JumpInWell wants to ask: will there be any inside jokes from the forum, fanbase, KQ, etc.?
[17:23] * YonkMod sets mode: +v-v JumpInWell ATMachine
[17:23] <Katie_Hallahan> Yes, there are a few
[17:23] <Neil_R> in the game you mean?
[17:23] <JumpInWell> yeah
[17:23] <Cesar_Bittar> yeah, one or two
[17:23] <Cesar_Bittar> or three or ten

[17:33] <Katie_Hallahan> Well, in KQIX, Rosella actually learns to use some time magic
[17:33] <Rosella> Oooh...
[17:33] <Rosella> O.O
[17:34] <Katie_Hallahan> as Hermione did in the third Harry Potter book/movie--but no time turners
[17:34] <Rosella> Aww
[17:34] <Cesar_Bittar> it's part of her destiny, part of her prophecy.
[17:34] <Cesar_Bittar> so she actually can Rewind, Fast-Forward, see the future/past, stop time, slow it and make it go faster.

[18:04] <Cesar_Bittar> here, they will have to deal with really dark demons
[18:05] <Cesar_Bittar> Alexander, for example, will be sort of an anti-hero.
[18:05] <Mike_Fortunato> not just the physical kind.
[18:05] <Mike_Fortunato>
[18:05] <Rosella> o_O
[18:05] <Cesar_Bittar> hehe
[18:05] <Cesar_Bittar> Alexander may probably infuriate all the fangirls

[16:33] <Cesar> The question about Graham's main weakness is actually a question about his own virtues
[16:34] <Cesar> During all the past episodes of KQ, we've seen him striving for saving his family.
[16:34] <Cesar> and creating a safe place for them
[16:35] <Cesar> We now see Graham in his 50s, and with children the same age he was when he first started adventuring
[16:35] <Cesar> He's overprotecting his family
[16:36] <Cesar> and not giving them space to grow. Even when Alexander became the King of the Green Isles and Rosella is doing her own things as well, this journey will show Graham a thing or two about his own family
[16:37] <Cesar> and about where his overprotecting wings should end
[16:37] <KatieHal> I would also add that Graham has a weakness accepting his age and that he's no longer the 'spring chicken' he used to be, so to speak.
[16:38] <KatieHal> For Rosella, her weaknesses/flaws lie in that she needs to take a good look at herself and grow up, become an adult and accept that.
[16:39] <Dean_P> Well put.
[16:39] <KatieHal> I think we've all noticed in previous games her attitude that could lend itself towards being a bit immature and 'I'll get what I want!'
[16:39] <KatieHal> And as for Alex...Cesar?
[16:41] <Cesar> Adding a last bit to Rosella, I also want to say that she will also have to deal with her fear to commitment and the way she sees things just by what her eyes tell her and not her heart. As for Alex...
[16:42] <Cesar> Alex will have to face the fact that he is PART of his family. As someone who grew outside his family, he has issues with his past, and he doesn't feel very comfortable. He fears to lose it all again.
[16:42] <Yonkey> Jeysie's question was: What is each main characters biggest flaw/weakness?
[16:42] <KatieHal> not suprisingly, the major flaw is pudding.
[16:42] <KatieHal>
[16:42] <Say> lol
[16:42] <Say> ok any other char you may want to comment on?
[16:42] <Cesar> so he'll have to choose between his family... or loneliness.
[16:42] <KatieHal> I'd say with Alex's flaw we really dove into the potentials of the way he grew up for it.
[16:43] <Cesar> yes
[16:43] <Cesar> and he's probably the most complex character of them all.
[16:57] <Cesar> in a way, I believe Alexander wanted to follow the steps of his father, so he could fit in his family. But he also was in love with Cassima.
[16:57] <Cesar> it's the way he grows out in his relationship with Cassima what really matters.
[16:58] <Cesar> grows out to be*
[16:58] <Cesar> Katie?
[16:59] <KatieHal> His flaw is a bit of a combination of those two things - the loneliness that's always been there, and the desire for stability, something more foreign to him, at the same time.
[16:59] <Cesar> he wants to find a place where he belongs.
[17:00] <Cesar> He's a very complex character, like I say, so many times his actions will imply something different or deeper than what we "thought".

[17:02] <Cesar> ok, for Valanice, let's just say she has unsorted problems.
[17:03] <Cesar> I can't talk much about her without spoiling the game, but I will only say that her weakness is that, being too fragile and weak.
[17:03] <KatieHal> For Unique, her problem is largely that she's very self-centered and focused on only herself.
[17:04] <Cesar> As for the other two main characters that are really relevant (We will skip Edgar, Cassima and Connor for plot issues), Katie is already talking about Unique.
[17:05] <Cesar> and as for Tigroat, he's looking for a place to belong. The interesting part about these companions for Rosella and Alexander is the fact that they are in many ways, a mirror to the main characters.
[17:05] <KatieHal> Unique's another character who's kind of denying a few things about herself (but, oh, who isn't?)
[17:05] <Cesar> Tigroat needs a friend.
[17:05] <Cesar> he needs someone to care for and someone who cares for him.
[17:05] <Cesar> he's probably the most charming character in the game.

[17:08] <Cesar> Nightmary is an important character in the Realm of Dreams. One of the two sisters that create dreams.

[17:12] <KatieHal> Well, in KQIX, you're going to learn just about *everything* about Valanice...whatever it may be
[17:12] <Koko> everything...well, that clears it up!
[17:12] <Say> lol
[17:12] <Cesar> there's a whole past beyond the tower, and we made sure to construct it
[17:12] <KatieHal> except her dress size, she wouldn't tell us that.
[17:13] <Cesar> that Valanice is a key role in this game. And the things she will find, and her journey during this game, will NOT be a very pleasant one.
[17:28] <Cesar> the Fairy Godmother is *somehow* tied to Valanice's past
[17:43] <Cesar> In King's Quest IX, we visit Valanice's Tower.

[Signore Buchelli]

I hope someday, Cesar, Katie, etc are willing to release their design documents for the much larger TSL, so at least we'll be able to see how it all played out before it unfortunately had to be condensed. Yes, warts and all.

Me too. It would be nice! 

Thank you VERY MUCH for the scketches. 

[Signore Buchelli]

There's a reason for the Chrury's silence: "Chris had a busted computer recently that took a while to fix. He's back up now but obviously that affected work (and updates)." (facebook) 

Cheer up, Chris!! I hope you will be back soon. Miss you.

[snabbott]

I hope someday, Cesar, Katie, etc are willing to release their design documents for the much larger TSL, so at least we'll be able to see how it all played out before it unfortunately had to be condensed. Yes, warts and all.

Me too. It would be nice! 

YES!!!

[Numbers]

I think back when it was called KQ9, it might have been a bit too ambitious for a first project. Going through that concept art, there were an awful lot of new characters being introduced, not to mention originally each of the parts was going to be as long as KQ6. In the end, as far as TSL parts 1-4 go, we really only got Shadrack and the Ranger. There are a few less important new characters like the Morrigan, but as it is, there really aren't many new characters that ended up getting used. I for one am very intrigued by this guy:



I mean, a dragon-headed dude wearing a cape? How cool is that? That's way more awesome than anything in TOG's KQ. I can only assume this guy would've been encountered in the Land of the Dragons.

On a related note, a few of the concept art drawings are unmarked with the character's name, but I'm going to go way out on a limb and suggest Tigroat is this one. You know, part tiger, part goat. It only makes sense.



Could one of the creators expand on what roles these scrapped characters would've played without spoiling too much of the final TSL episode? Was Shadrack always going to be the primary antagonist, or would he have been dispatched three parts into the nine-part rough draft to make room for a bigger threat? Was the "Wanderer" supposed to be the main character in The Wizard and the Princess? Does Unique have any relation to the previously encountered winged horses in the series? And is it just me, or does this character...



...look an awful lot like the Heresiarch from Hexen?



I doubt that design was an intentional ripoff, but you never know.

[snabbott]

I know César mentioned the possibility of using some of these characters in new games - I don't know if that's still being considered, or if Phoenix will develop more original games now that they have switched focus to publishing. I hope so!

[GrahamRocks!]

I want to say something, but it's probably better that I keep quiet lest I attract the attention of someone I don't wish to speak to...

[KatieHal]

It was VASTLY too ambitious. For just about ANY project, much less a first one!

That is indeed Tigroat. He and Unique were to be companions for Alexander and Rosella, respectively, in Part 2. Sort of like Cedric but actually useful and integral to the plot, instead of being an annoying side character who just yammers useless warnings.

The Wanderer there was I think going to be the human form of a zodiac sign. Not a big role, though. I won't say much more about that since that plot, albeit a different version, is part of Episode 5. Yes, those zodiac signs in the first 4 eps keep showing up for a reason!

Couldn't speak to that guy resembling Hexen on purpose or not, but it's the first time I've heard of it, so I'm pretty sure it's coincidental.

And WOW, Rock Knight, you've been sitting on a goldmine of old posts there! Damn. I'd forgotten about half that stuff. It's awesome seeing some of the old concept art, though. Memory lane, and a reminder of how talented the artists we've had come through the team are!

[GrahamRocks!]

I'd be VERY surprised if the Zodiac wasn't important overall already.