VMs, etc.

[Oldbushie]

I don't think I've seen Dogma, but I'll check it out.

[Storm]

No sex before marrige in the bible applies only to women -
the girl must be a virgin when she marries, otherwise she's "damaged goods", and no one will want to marry her. There's actually a whole repulsive custom that says the girl should keep the sheets on which she and her husband used on their wedding night to prove she was a virgin when she married by showing the bloodstains. Ick :-/

Men can have sex all they want before the wedding, as long as it's not with someone else's wife or fiancee (that's an offence panishable by death, since she's someone elses property).
If a man has sex with a girl that isn't married or engaged, he has to marry her and compensate her father (even if he raped her).

[KatieHal]

Oddly enough, I've even heard tales/stories/rumors/something of some countries where a girl *can't* be a virgin before she marries and there are actually people whose jobs are to deflower virgins more or less. (not in the raping sense)

Talk about extremes in the world!

I mean, it's easy to understand why, especially in earlier times, it was very discouraged for a girl to have sex before marrying, because the ability to prevent pregnancy was more or less non-existent; which is still a good reason today, but now there are so many more options to protect onself.  As they say though, abstinence is obviously the best contraception you can get.

And I think it vaired for men...yes, obviously, they have always been held to not nearly as many expectations as women when it comes to sex & virtue. But there is also a story in the bible (speaking for Christianity mostly here) where a man is punished by God for having sex with a woman but "wasting his seed." (I don't think I need to spell that one out, and I'd really rather not!) Which is where most of that whole thing about any sex that is not for the purpose of reproduction is a sin. Which doesn't make too much sense...after all, if God didn't want us to enjoy sex, why make it pleasurable?

Ugh...::shudder:: I can't imagine being forced to marry a man who had raped me....god, that's horrible. I mean, in a way a just punishment for him, force him to answer the responsibility of his actions, but god, for the woman? That's throwing salt and lemon juice on an open wound.

[Oldbushie]

I finished watching Dogma, it was really really good!!!!!!!

The movie makes a lot of sense in a lot of areas, and I like the explanation of human existence at the end (but don't want to ruin it for those who haven't seen it ). Sometimes the best answer to the Great 'Why?' is the Great 'Because.'

[Oldbushie]

And, on that other topic, I suppose I'd be okay with marrying a girl whose had sex with someone besides me as long as she wasn't some kind of s*** that slept around a ton (or if she did, then it better be a habit that's long gone by the time of marriage). I do have some standards, but I'm not setting impossible ideals here.

I understand that one can only expect to find someone as perfect as themselves, there is no such thing as a truly perfect being (excepting some Saints, but I'm sure even they had a rough day in childhood now and then). But I will only marry someone who's perfect at being herself (a little tricky, too, sometimes so I'll cut some slack).

[Rosedragon]

I read about those laws in the old testament, Dogma is right, the bible is gender biased! That's why I gave up on finding God in the bible, and started looking in other ways.  Now about the whole "damaged goods" thing, isn't it men that started the idea? Why is marrying a woman who has had other sex partners considered so repulsive to men back then? What about a man who married a widow? If her last husband was rich, then he'd inherit the money.

[Oldbushie]

I think some men feel possessive, and they feel they really need to own something. They want to be able to 'own' their wife, which is kinda hard if she was already 'owned' by 30 other guys.

And maybe other guys feel that they aren't special, since the woman was so much with other guys, and that the woman is less capable of loving.

Now here's the tricky part: there's been so much equating sex with love that the two seem psychologically inseparable, even though much of sex is devoid of love. Some people don't realize that, and think sex is the same thing as love, so if someone's spouse/girlfriend has had sex with many people, they feel as if there's only a sort of casual love going on. I do think that it's a good idea for real love and sex to go together, since that makes it more meaningful, but one can't really mistake one for the other.

[Rosedragon]

So true OldBushie. It seems that nice guys are hard to find, and are already taken. most of the nice guys I've met have been over the internet.  I wish I could find a good boyfriend.

[KatieHal]

In my opinion/view, I think people have sex so very casually because they are trying to find love or fix something taht has hurt them, and in some way or another, they feel like they get love fromt he act, but they don't necessarily. Other people find it as being their way of avoiding true intimacy, by saying they are intimate when it really means something entirely different.

[Peasant_Girl]

Oh....I wish i'd replyd sooner!
Oldbushie...yes Orthodox Christian priests are usually married. And sex is not looked upon something that is bad or sinful, but actually the opposite. God Himself, made sex a pleasurable experience (orgasms, etc) so it wouldn't be hard to have children, and so men and women are attracted to each other.
virginity is also looked upon as good, but that does not mean that sex is bad. Not every person is meant for virginity.

In the russian Orthodox Church, we know that we have original, unbroken christianity as it was handed down to us from the apostles, and that is why sex (and virginity, for that matter) has never been an issue. But i know there are confused people out there: and most of it stems from christian sects that are not orthodox, or are churches formed after the schism(1054)...and others who are not christian at all, eg: moslems, etc.

I feel sorry for people who have problems with sex, because i know from experience with my friends who are catholic, that they have all these guilt complexes about sex.

As Storm said...it is one of God's commands.

Believe it or not...there are also people out there who don't want sex (though i don't think that's the thing for me) and would rather be virgins, that is why our church lets people become monastics(monks + nuns)....it's because people are sooo different! They must be free to choose. And virginity is never forced on a person...and neither is sex.


And as too all that talk about the bible....there are many different translations of the bible..and the fact is that a lot of the christian ones you get in english are very incomplete and can be confusing and "Protestant". If you can read Greek or Russian go back to the original sources...or you can get an english version that is translated direct from these sources.

[Oldbushie]

Dang!

Well, I do remember that God said to go forth and multiply...

Oh, and what about the problem with multiple wives or whatnot? The Old Testament had no problem, some kings had very many wives. But many of today's societies outlaw multiple marriages, or communal marriages sometimes (in the case of people trying to form utopias). Why is that?

[Rosedragon]

Multiple marriages are seen as wrong by most modern societies, because monogamy is seen as the best form of relationship. If you'll read the bible, having more than one wife created a lot of problems for the men and women, especially the women, they would get jealous and fight, and then bring their children into the fights. Abraham, Rachel and Leah, a lot of disputes were caused by this, and the purpose back then was for having a lot of children, later on with the kings and the harems it was for pleasure.

Polygamy is seen as an accepted form of adultery. In Genesis, one man who first had to wives, became violent and started to kill people. Mainly, this is because it is not fair to the women, who often are the second, third or fourth wife. Who ever heard of a woman having two husbands at the same time? Now I know there are some strange women out there who would not mind being in a threesome, or are not jealous of the idea of their husband having another wife, but most women are jealous. I certaintly don't want my true love to cheat on me. Even muslims today only have one wife, because it is more expensive to have two or four woman to care for, and more peaceful, to only have one wife to quarrel with.

[Oldbushie]

That's true...

And as was stated in Fiddler on the Roof, who in their right mind would want to be nagged by 30 wives? (or something like that...)

I don't particularly like polygamies, but it was just a thought running through my head. It must be hard for governments to keep track of polygamies, though. That must be part of it too.

[KatieHal]

Polygamy is more or less only looked down upon because of society, true, but yes I think it's for good reasons. Speaking from seeing a friend of mine deal with a BS boyfriend who claims half the time to still love his ex and be "polyamorous" (BS alert!!), I don't think that idea would work very well in the current day and age. People get jealous, especially when in love. We don't marry purely for money, etc, anymore, so it makes the idea of polygamy much less sensible or needed.

And, yeah, exaclt y oldbushie...who would *want* more than one wife nagging at him? ;-)

[Storm]

In the "old testement" it's mostly kings or rich people who have more than one wife, because only they can afford to. Kings usually married multiple wives for political reasons
Also, a man could have sex with another woman even if he's married without it being considered adultery, as long as the other woman isn't married

I don't know about the new testement's view on the matter, but Judaism got over polygamy - it was later banned by some bigshot rabbi. Technically, there are still cases where the letter of the law in Judaism allows polygamy, but it's considered premiscuity. :-/

In Islam, however, it's still "legal" to have up to 4 wives

[Peasant_Girl]

I don't think the idea of many wives is good because i'm a girl myself...and i know that if my husband liked any other woman except me I'd be gealous as hell!!!!!!!!!

[Rosedragon]

I would love to get my hands on the original hebrew and greek copies of the bible, well, and english version, since I don't speak hebrew and greek. Actually, I have shied away from the bible because it disturbs me. Too negative. Peasant Girl, do you know much about the history of orthodox christianity? Did they have a period of witch persecutions and burning in the east like the western christians had? I heard of this book, Before the Burning Times, that talks about christianity's relationship with magic.

We all agree that polygamy is bad. I grew up baptist, and read a protestant version of the bible, a lot of the churches I go to keep it simple, they want to stick to he original christian values found in the new testament. In the new testament sexual immorality is forbidden. In Revelations is says that the sexually immoral, those who practice magic, the liars and murderers will not be allowed in heaven.

[Rosedragon]

Of course, then you have to define "sexually immoral." The churches I go to say that you can only have sex after marriage, only with your spouse. That is awefully strict, and I imagine not all christians go by these rules, they apply to both men and women. Adultery, prostitution, homosexuality, incest, and beastiality are all sex sins strongly condemned in the bible. The irony is that I found out that in the middle ages some brothels were actually on church property. Prostitution is a form of slavery, in the past those poor women actually were slaves. Then again, you have some perverted women out there who think is a fun way to make a living. As for homosexuals, well, they amount of hate crimes and murders commited against them proves that some right-wing christian fanatics can be very dangerous. I don't know whether homosexuality should be considered morally wrong, a lot of psychiatrists say it's something you're born with, but you choose who to have sex with, right?

[Oldbushie]

Yeah, I have no problem with homosexuals, but when they start coming on to me I run away. Otherwise I'm not that homophobic.

If that new testament is right though about the whole "sexually immoral" thing, heaven's gonna be pretty lonely... mostly the most religious nuns/monks and the hundreds of  people who couldn't get a date if they tried really really hard will be in there; of course, some of those dateless people probably look at pornography, so there goes another hundred thousand.

[Rosedragon]

"First do no harm", I think that's part of the doctor's oath. If sleeping around doesn't hurt anyone else, than where is the harm? But there's always the risk of sexually transmitted diseases. of course, there's condoms and other stuff to protect yourself. I think in today's society, with AIDS and SARS, people are more careful with who they sleep with. At least, if they're smart, they should be.  

I don't like all those preachers butting in to people's personal sex lives. If there congregation is fine with abstinence and monogamy, that's great, but they shouldn't criticise the world and call people dirty for enjoying their freedom. A lot of christian organizations are very much against porn, they claim it leads to broken marriages, rape and child abuse. They're looking for someone to blame. I've looked at some porn, it can be shocking, but does that make me a bad person? No, I'm just curious, and I have fetishes like everyone else. God must know that we are sexual creatures, I mean he made us. I doubt that many people will be barred from heaven becasue of there flaws with lust.