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KQ Canon?

Started by TheReturnofDMD, August 08, 2006, 11:23:03 AM

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oberonqa

Just thought I'd drop my own little bit of input here in regards to Graham's age and appearance.

As has been stated in the thread, Graham's age is never specifically defined in the games.  It was, however, mentioned indirectly in the assorted manuals and certainly expanded upon by Peter Spears (I haven't had the pleasure of reading his book... but plan to).

As for his appearance.... this is a spoiler so....

[spoiler]
The Magic Fruit that Rosella gave to Graham in the "good" ending of KQIV not only cured him of his deteriorating heart condition, it also rejuvinated him.  Hence why his appearance looks somewhat younger in KQV.  He's still the same age, but it's also evident he is still experiencing some after-effects from the Magic Fruit.
[/spoiler]

As for his appearance in KQVIII, it's difficult to tell exactly when the game takes place in regards to the overall KQ storyline.  There's no mention of anything that could possibly give an indication of the passage of time... most notably in the lack of any reference to Alexander and/or Rosella (whose ages can be closely approximated since they are twins and they were both introduced in the same time period that was KQIII).

As for the topic of canon lore, I personally consider the following to be canon lore:

-> Each of the King's Quest games (including, I'm sorry to say, KQVIII), including, but not limited to, the game storylines, box art, manual information (most especially the manual that came with KQVI due to it's historical background information on the Land of the Green Isles), and hintbooks.

-> Peter Spears "King's Quest Companion" book due to Peter Spear's close working relationship with Roberta Williams, Jane Jenson, and Lorreli Shannon (arguably the three most influential designers in the KQ franchise).

Anything else would, in my opinion, fall outside the scope of canon lore.
 
Chronicling the history of Sierra through the conversion of it's premiere magazine into an easy-to-use, searchable wiki format.

Baggins

#21
QuoteHence why his appearance looks somewhat younger in KQV.

Its literally impossible to tell if he looks older in KQIV compared to KQ5, based on the differences of graphic engines. Graham's face is only 16 colors and pixelated in KQ4, while 256 colors in KQ5.

Any idea of him looking "younger" in KQ5 is based on personal opinion. I'm not sure I would actually agree with your opinion, but I respect your opinion.

QuoteIt was, however, mentioned indirectly in the assorted manuals

Its actually mentioned directly in the hintguides by Lorelei Shannon for KQ6, and KQ7.

QuoteAs for his appearance in MoE, it's difficult to tell exactly when the game takes place in regards to the overall KQ storyline.  There's no mention of anything that could possibly give an indication of the passage of time...

This is true, no exact date is given. According to the producers he is "old"(which can be open to interpretation on what people consider "old"). No cues are given in game besides the fact that Graham's had aged in appearance. As he appears frail in cutscenes and having pure white hair in the cutcenes and painting.

QuoteAs for the topic of canon lore, I personally consider the following to be canon lore:

While I respect your personal canon, I'd also like to point out that the three official King's Quest novels themselves were created through input with Sierra employees and marked the stamp of the King's Quest and Sierra trademarks. Interviews with the authors were made in Interaction Magazine as I remember.

They tell side stories that do not interfere with any of game's stories, and cover points in history not covered in the games, nor by Peter Spear, but fit into their own unique point in history. They also contain a few refrences to Peter Spear's works as well.

Based on their relatively unimportant events, and happening during unmentioned points in time in history portrayed in the games,  they are not likely to be contradicted by any future sources, official or otherwise.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

oberonqa

#22
Quote from: Baggins on August 13, 2006, 06:31:43 PM
QuoteHence why his appearance looks somewhat younger in KQV.

Its literally impossible to tell if he looks older in KQIV compared to KQ5, based on the differences of graphic engines. Graham's face is only 16 colors and pixelated in KQ4, while 256 colors in KQ5.

Any idea of him looking "younger" in KQ5 is based on personal opinion. I'm not sure I would actually agree with your opinion, but I respect your opinion.

QuoteIt was, however, mentioned indirectly in the assorted manuals

Its actually mentioned directly in the hintguides by Lorelei Shannon for KQ6, and KQ7.

QuoteAs for his appearance in MoE, it's difficult to tell exactly when the game takes place in regards to the overall KQ storyline.  There's no mention of anything that could possibly give an indication of the passage of time...

This is true, no exact date is given. According to the producers he is "old"(which can be open to opinion on what people consider "old"). No cues are given in game besides the fact that Graham's had aged in appearance. As he appears frail in cutscenes and having pure white hair in the cutcenes and painting.

QuoteAs for the topic of canon lore, I personally consider the following to be canon lore:

While I respect your personal canon, I'd also like to point out that the three official King's Quest novels themselves were created through input with Sierra employees and marked the stamp of the King's Quest and Sierra trademarks. Interviews with the authors were made in Interaction Magazine as I remember.

They tell side stories that do not interfere with any of game's stories, and cover points in history not covered in the games, nor by Peter Spear, but fit into their own unique point in history. They also contain a few refrences to Peter Spear's works as well.

Based on their relatively unimportant events, and happening during unmentioned points in time in history portrayed in the games,  they are not likely to be contradicted by any future sources, official or otherwise.

The biggest problem I see with the three novels is even though they can all be classified as "back story", they do define elements of history that is typically covered under canon.  Lucas had to face a similiar situation while doing the Star Wars prequels because the Expanded Universe already covered in varying degree's of detail Anakin Skywalker's fall from grace and the paticulars in how he became Darth Vader.  Because the Expanded Universe version of events is so widely known, Lucas was essentially pigeonholed into what had already been potrayed in the E.U.  He still had some leg room to interject his own "creative vision", but he still had to follow the basic concepts set forth by the E.U. novels because they had become canon by the fanbase.

The same pigeonhole effect can occur with King's Quest.  Novels that deal with history, no matter how vague they are as to where they fit into that history, can still be taken as canon by the fanbase.

I should point out that novels and fiction that take place in the future are not saddled with this potential problem.  For example, no one considers the events in the Dark Jedi series of Expanded Universe books to be canon.  The same can possibly be said about TSL, since technically it takes place at some point in the future after the events of Mask of Eternity.  The chances of the events of TSL becoming canon is slim because it takes place at some point in the future (though it can be inferred the game takes place during the lifespan of the current royal family) so it's presense won't interfere with any possible "official" sequel that Vivendi Universal may or may not put out. 

Actually... on that paticular thought... any "official" sequel that is put out could be assumed to take place before the events of TSL (depending on whatever story is developed) and if that's the case, TSL could always be viewed as the end of the series, despite whatever "official" sequels are released (again, assuming the stories any "official" sequel is based on utilizes the current royal family).
 
Chronicling the history of Sierra through the conversion of it's premiere magazine into an easy-to-use, searchable wiki format.

Baggins

#23
QuoteFor example, no one considers the events in the Dark Jedi series of Expanded Universe books to be canon

What is the dark jedi series?

Cause Lucasfilm has dictated that practally everything is canon unless htey specifically mark it with "infinities".

Do you mean Jedi Academy Series, or Young Jedi Knights?

Those are actually considered canon by LFL(as per endless "canon" vs. Non-canon questions posed to Star Wars Insider Mag over the years).

Few fans do not accept those in their personal canons.

Quote
TSL could always be viewed as the end of the series, despite whatever "official" sequels are released (again, assuming the stories any "official" sequel is based on utilizes the current royal family).

As for TSL timeline Phoenix Online Studios has been pretty specific with their dates.

They set MOE a few months after KQ7, and they place TSL about 1 year after MOE. Alexander and Rosella are 21 in the game. Rosella was almost 20 according to the KQ7 intro for example.

I doubt there would be room to place TSL after an official KQ9, if for example Rosella and Alexander turned out to be 22 in the official game. It wouldn't necessarily fit before an official KQ9 as well.

In some ways TSL does not fit with MoE as we know it, as they have portrayed Graham a bit younger than how he was portrayed in MoE. They have de-aged his appearance in MoE by making him appear strong(not frail), and giving him darer grey hair rather than white hair as he appeared in MoE.

Their version of events of MoE as when they placed the game in their timeline makes Graham go from grey hair as seen in KQ6 to pure white hair over course of about 2 years, and then going back to an even darker grey.

Apparently MoE team saw the game as having occured at least half a decade after KQ7, allowing time for Graham's hair to go white naturally.

So TSL has its own interpretation on the history, and when they placed the events of MoE, and chose to ignore certain aspects of MoE where it helped the narrative flow of their game's story.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Yonkey

#24
I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think the reason why our designers chose to ignore MoE is fairly obvious.  Had MoE done its job plot-wise (at least), our game would not exist and the series would possibly still be thriving. :P

We've said already that we'll be using Connor, Sarah and the Mask of Eternity in our game, but any other nonsensical hack-and-slash plot isn't being developed in our game.  For people wanting that particular canon to be developed, they are free to play any other action/adventure game from the early to mid 90's. 8)

Regarding Star Wars, I don't think George Lucas particularly cared what his fans wanted.  If you look at the prequels, they always took his creative direction which contrasted greatly with the Star Wars fan community.  Perhaps this was his intent for plot progression, perhaps it wasn't.  Still for me, I only really enjoyed Episode 3, but not because he made it or because it was Star Wars.  I enjoyed it as a standalone movie.  But to get back on-topic, no one disputes his work as canon, as he is the sole creator (past and present), whereas the KQ series had several different ones.
"A wish changes nothing. A decision changes everything."

oberonqa

Dark Jedi was where Luke was turned to the Dark Side.
 
Chronicling the history of Sierra through the conversion of it's premiere magazine into an easy-to-use, searchable wiki format.

Baggins

#26
You mean Dark Empire Trilogy of comics?

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but even that is considered part of LFL's list of canon, accordeing to Lucasfilm Insider Magazine, other Star Wars books, and official star wars website.

Its also been used extensively by many EU books.

As I mentioned before Lucasfilm's policy is that movies are primary canon and most if not all EU is considered, Secondary Canon.

The material they do not consider canon is marked with "infinities",, or at least that used to be their system.

But enough of that, as we are getting incredibly off topic.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg