TSL Demo...

[Nitro187]

I played through the demo, and was a bit dissapointed that it was so short.  It took me literally 1 minute to go through the whole thing, because everything goes so fast.  (No, I don't have an SLI video card, and yes, my video drivers on my ATI X1900 are fully up to date.)

Either way, I really liked how you did some things, and the music was great.  I especially liked how the credits rolled as you entered new rooms, just like a movie.

Now, one of my biggest dissapointments is the fact this game was built on someone elses software.... a 3d shooter software?  Why was this chosen?  I'm a programmer myself ->  www.guildftpd.com  and I've played around with DirectX 3d programming years ago, it's a bit tricky to learn at first, but I was able to make a couple games... had I had the time, I would have been able to continue.  Now, there is nothing in this game that requires you guys to use that crappy software.  If you made your own source, then you wouldn't be running into all these problems that go hand in hand with that cheap quick 3D game maker.

So I guess my question is, why?  No other company does this except for scripting kids... so why is such a great re-make being built on this??

[dark-daventry]

Here's my take on the situation. I do not know if the team has the time to make their own engine or source. I think they chose the one they did because it is faster. They are trying to make a game, they can choose the engine they think best suits their needs. Although I am not part of the team, I think I stand for them when I say they had their reasons for choosing this particular engine. I for one really like it. The demo itself was made only to show the community that they haven't been slacking off the entire time (I think...). Just my take on the situation.

[Nitro187]

Well, I think... that when the game is done.... that I'm going to do the first fan "fan remake", and re-do it in my own engine.

Thatd be sweet, cause the storyline looks pretty solid.  Then I can throw my version on here for people to download.  Designing is the hardest part, which looks already done.

[dark-daventry]

I would be happy the way it is personally. They put so much into this, that it would be a shame to throw it away...

[oberonqa]

So I guess my question is, why?  No other company does this except for scripting kids... so why is such a great re-make being built on this??

You couldn't be more wrong here.  Most game companies do not make their own engines anymore.  Developing an engine is a time consuming endeavor and takes a great deal of money.  Your average development time for a game engine is anywhere from 2-4 years depending on how much code is reused from other projects.

How do you think companies like id Software and Epic Megagames make their money?  It certainly isn't from making games... since these companies only put out a game every 3-5 years.  They make their money from licensing out their game engines.  

Take Doom 3 for example.  It was id Software's first game to be released since Quake 3 came out in 2000.  It utilized a brand new engine that took the company years to develop.  And now, that same engine is being used by other companies to make games in half the time thanks to not having to develop an engine.

This has been the trend for many years... going back into the 90's as a matter of fact.

As a programmer, you know what is involved in making a viable and robust game engine.  You know how much time it takes too.  But you must have forgotten one of the basic rules of programming that is taught in Computer Science 101:

"Reinventing the wheel the the sake of reinventing the wheel is a poor way to utilize resources and time."

As for the Torque engine, it's no Doom 3... but it's highly robust and customizable.  Not to mention, it has an active support base.  The fact that a FPS-optimized engine is able to power a point-and-click Adventure Game is proof not only of the engine's robust nature, but also the talent of the programming team.  

[dark-daventry]

I have to side with Oberonqa here (did I spell your name right?). I think the team is putting their all into this, and I really think it would be such a shame for someone to remake the fan game with their own engine and then release it as an alternative. To be honest, I really like the engine their using! There is nothing wrong with it if you ask me! The team put so much into this it would be a shame to have an unsatisfied fan to go and remake it as their own with their own engine and everything. Just my opinion.

[Nitro187]

I knew the Doom3 or Unreal engine was going to come up sooner or later.

Either way, for me to be able to enjoy this game to the fullest, an alternative engine must be used.  Think of it this way.... can we adjust the graphics of the game?  no.  Can we adjust the quality of anything? no.

Why?  Because it's all pre-set, as per the engine.  Doesn't matter anyway, I don't want to turn this into a flame.  If I decide to re-make this fan game.... I could keep it to myself even.  It wouldn't be a shame,  all their work is great... Actors, voices, 3d modeling, design, graphics, etc etc etc.... with the exception of the programmers.  They took easy street.

[dark-daventry]

I do not wish to start a flame either, so I will just say that I believe the programmers are doing their best and have done great work thus far. I am thankful that at least a ninth game is being made in the first place. The graphics hardly make a difference to me anyway. (They do look great though!  ) So I will end this (hopefully) by saying keep it up, programmers... You can do as you wish, as you are an individual and thus can make your own decisions in life. I was merely expressing my own opinions. To each their own. I think the term Beauty is in the eye of the beholder could apply here, in terms of the graphical discussion...

[oberonqa]

I knew the Doom3 or Unreal engine was going to come up sooner or later.

Either way, for me to be able to enjoy this game to the fullest, an alternative engine must be used.  Think of it this way.... can we adjust the graphics of the game?  no.  Can we adjust the quality of anything? no.

Why?  Because it's all pre-set, as per the engine.  Doesn't matter anyway, I don't want to turn this into a flame.  If I decide to re-make this fan game.... I could keep it to myself even.  It wouldn't be a shame,  all their work is great... Actors, voices, 3d modeling, design, graphics, etc etc etc.... with the exception of the programmers.  They took easy street.

Hey that's your call... if you feel the only way you can enjoy the game is by building it's core from scratch, then that's up to you... 

But consider this:

A game is 90% content and 10% engine.  Without the content, then the engine is useless (as there is nothing to play).  And without the engine, the content cannot be created (and when the engine is finished. it has nothing to do).

[dark-daventry]

I'm glad that they took the time to make this, and will treasure it forever. I just won't settle for anything else (besides an official sequel. That is a different story...) I know how dedicated the team is, and I got to experience first hand how passionate they are about the game and the team, and it is inspiring to see a group of fans work together on a game. The team is doing us a favor, and I think we should show them our gratitude! This team is going out of their way to make this, and I just don't believe that a "fan" should go and re-do all of the hardwork because it doesn't meet their expectations. You can do what you want though. I can't stop you, nor would I.

[Yonkey]

Just to give an official answer here, the team actually tried making their own engine several years ago, but it was taking too long and they had too many problems.

Then they tried Crystal Space, but that too lacked needed functionality.

So then we moved to Torque in 2004 I believe, and that was when I became Programming Director.  Rather than flipping to some other engine (which I could have done), I decided to stick with it and adapt it so that it works for our needs.

Of course there are plenty of better engines out there, and their cost is plenty higher than Torque too.   Our game has specific design specs and we are now at a stage where the engine finally fits for our usage.  It still needs work obviously, since nothing is perfect, but it's still pretty good for a non-funded company like ours, based on the resources we have available.

[dark-daventry]

Glad to hear it!

[Nitro187]

Just to give an official answer here, the team actually tried making their own engine several years ago, but it was taking too long and they had too many problems.

Then they tried Crystal Space, but that too lacked needed functionality.

So then we moved to Torque in 2004 I believe, and that was when I became Programming Director.  Rather than flipping to some other engine (which I could have done), I decided to stick with it and adapt it so that it works for our needs.

Of course there are plenty of better engines out there, and their cost is plenty higher than Torque too.   Our game has specific design specs and we are now at a stage where the engine finally fits for our usage.  It still needs work obviously, since nothing is perfect, but it's still pretty good for a non-funded company like ours, based on the resources we have available.

Well said.  Thats the answer I was looking for.  At least you guys had an attempt at making your own.  I'll wait for the official release before jumping to conclusions as to how it will be.  It would be nice to be able to adjust settings on the game though.  Looking at the the game so far though, I can't believe they didn't make a remake, this is a great example as to how the official KQ8 SHOULD have been like.

[dark-daventry]

I think they may make settings to adjust the game in ways like that. I'm sure they'll have something similar at least.

[Yonkey]

It would be nice to be able to adjust settings on the game though.  Looking at the the game so far though, I can't believe they didn't make a remake, this is a great example as to how the official MoE SHOULD have been like.

Actually, you can adjust quite a bit.  The Options screen isn't completed yet, but that's just a preview.  Currently, you can swap in your own sound files, own images/textures, even your own dialogue if you really wanted.   I believe our TribeHasSpoken made a Cedric easter egg too.

I've also heard a couple people say that Chapter 1 feels very much like a KQVI remake, so you could see it like that if you like.

[dark-daventry]

Yay! I even more excited now! Why do you have to make everything so exciting for me, Neil? 

[Say]

Well Nitro concern is valid, he was just wondering. As Neil stated we were then way back in 2003 then eventually we decided to work on as it is nowadays (from CS to Torque and all), to be honest the biggest load of work comes down to other issues such as art (so many lands and whatnot), so the engine call became something productive and the problems that our programmers have got is the fact to make it work into what the game design is all about.

On further stuff, Nitro, feel free to ask as much as you would like, I believe when people approach us for interviews and questions they are usually very oriented towards the plot and the art direction. So, whatever you would like to know about it technically, feel free to ask

And just to clarify some odd posts below

The demo itself was made only to show the community that they haven't been slacking off the entire time (I think...). Just my take on the situation.

The demos have been done in order to start shaping up the game and specially all the elements into the engines as it is, obviously, way back when CS and of course with Torque. The first fully functional demo (with absolutly EVERYTHING, intro screen, DVD design, etc) was given to Vivendi. And JUST for the record, the lead directors decided to provide a short version of the demo just to please you all in our annual event.

Nothing less, nothing more. Not to "prove" anything but to "share" what there is to share. We are legally disclosed to keep shut most of it because Vivendi is supposed to hold legal rights, I thought it was quite obvious. Even when I had to deal with Computer Gaming World as well as any European magazine that has asked me to distribute demo or ANY other TSL official material, we have had to ask explicit permission to Marcus Beer to see IF it was ok with them, because we had to sign legal documents giving permission from both ends.

We are serious, and I thought that by now people would know that we are not fooling around.

[dark-daventry]

Forgive me. I did not mean any offense or anything... I was stating my opinions on the matter. I never said anyone was fooling around... 

[Say]

Oh don't worry, I didn't say you offended!, I was just stating it clear
I know of few ones that believe otherwise

[dark-daventry]

Phew! *wipes forhead* I was scared for a moment!